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Expendable Unit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2017.02.15 18:25:41 -
[1] - Quote
So, about citadels. I stopped playing shortly before they announced they will introduce this garbage, and now, for the first time, I am asking for feedback on citadels. How amazing is it to set one up, looking at it, protecting it? Does it increase the fun factor for you? I am curious. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15162
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Posted - 2017.02.15 18:33:05 -
[2] - Quote
Expendable Unit wrote:So, about citadels. I stopped playing shortly before they announced they will introduce this garbage, and now, for the first time, I am asking for feedback on citadels. How amazing is it to set one up, looking at it, protecting it? Does it increase the fun factor for you? I am curious.
Yes to all of those. They are amazing, I've used the guns on Citidels a few times to kill people stupid enough to approach ours.
The Look awesome, in a way that structures don't, and it's nice to have a place to dock instead of the old "living out of a pos" thing where you are always in space. They offer a lot of flexibilty that old POSes and npc statiosn can't match. and the customization options are easier to understand than POS stuff ever was while to me being way more useful and functional.
Citidels aren't perfect, but I put them in the win column. |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
197
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Posted - 2017.02.15 18:37:21 -
[3] - Quote
Don't see how a feature needs to be fun in order for it to be a good or needed feature. let alone "the most fun in eve history" from everything i've heard, setting them up and managing them is a hell of a lot easier and less annoying than setting up a pos is. living out of one is INFINITELY better, even if some of the pos functionality hasn't quite been replaced yet. as for defensively, i've heard both that they are more annoying to take down because of the multiple timers, but also that they are too easy to take down... seems it has more to do with numbers than anything.
overall it doesn't seem like its a feature that has done much in the way of increasing "fun" as increasing the general quality of life. and from that standpoint i'd call them a resounding success in the move towards getting rid of the clusterfuck that is pos code.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1551
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Posted - 2017.02.15 18:38:08 -
[4] - Quote
I'm not a logistics guy, so I can't say much about that. My guess would be that citadel logistics are just as fun as POS logistics. (read: so fun that you are inclined to drink bleach and gouge your eyes out). But don't quote me on that, that's just a guess.
As a user first and foremost of Citadels, I like them. It's nice to have a safe place to dock, and be able to put one up wherever you may be living right now - fitting, hangars, market and all. The small ones with their tiny vulnerability windows seem to be easy enough to defend if you have the manpower to defend them, but they won't defend themselves like POSes did. The big ones - only one fully fitted keepstar has died so far - seem to be quite formidable. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5576
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Posted - 2017.02.15 19:39:04 -
[5] - Quote
There's definite potential - even if it hasn't been fully realized yet.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46892
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Posted - 2017.02.15 20:16:18 -
[6] - Quote
Great QOL improvement in jspace. |
MadMuppet
A Better Corp Name
1187
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Posted - 2017.02.15 20:21:27 -
[7] - Quote
Infinite storage, ability to DOCK big ships on the large ones rather than have them float in a shield. If you only use them as a base and don't refine, sell, build, research, or need clones they are free to operate (something I actually do not agree with). They take time to take down because of reinforce timers but they also allow for windows so that owners can stand a chance of defending them. Their actual defenses are generally poor and you need a decent defense fleet to keep them from getting poppped. They also have tethering so anybody friendly to the station can stay in space by one and be relatively safe and get repaired in short order.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1554
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Posted - 2017.02.15 20:31:15 -
[8] - Quote
MadMuppet wrote:(something I actually do not agree with) I agree with you not agreeing there - that's just plain dumb. If it's not fueled, it shouldn't do anything. Considering citadels can be placed pretty much wherever, how is highsec supposed to look in a couple of years? It might become a scrapheap of old and abandoned citadels, because there is no incentive to grind an unused, unfueled and untended citadel either. |
Lucas Lucias
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
16
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Posted - 2017.02.15 21:34:50 -
[9] - Quote
Apart from a few niggles and a few needed adjustments, which I won't go into here, I would say that they have been a huge addition to the game. Another big improvement which you might not have looked at is the capital combat with fighters and stuff, it has made larger fleet battles a lot more interesting, overall the game is in a very good place. |
Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
37
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Posted - 2017.02.15 21:57:14 -
[10] - Quote
They're phenomenal for self sustained industrial corporations. |
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Expendable Unit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2017.02.16 13:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sounds interesting enough then. So what is the trend with alliances in terms of how they are used the most efficiently? Is it one of those "the more you got in one system the better" or what is the most efficient method that you see alliances etc setting them up? |
Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
39
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Posted - 2017.02.16 13:38:01 -
[12] - Quote
Expendable Unit wrote:Sounds interesting enough then. So what is the trend with alliances in terms of how they are used the most efficiently? Is it one of those "the more you got in one system the better" or what is the most efficient method that you see alliances etc setting them up?
Can't speak for other people but we've got a dedicated R&D centre, a manufacturing and reprocessing citadel, then a market and a citadel for clones (we're on the verge of low and Providence) |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
341
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Posted - 2017.02.16 13:45:03 -
[13] - Quote
Expendable Unit wrote:Sounds interesting enough then. So what is the trend with alliances in terms of how they are used the most efficiently? Is it one of those "the more you got in one system the better" or what is the most efficient method that you see alliances etc setting them up?
they are what pos were some time ago. who own citadels in the system then own the system, pretty much.
interesting is the PL tactic: to siege an enemy citadel (with some risks involved) drop a couple of citadels of your own near that citadel, drops supers on your citadels, and send fighters on the battefield 1k km away, if something goes wrong, stop attacking wait for aggression timer and get thetered (aka invulnerable or more precisely not lockable).
another tactic is drug bubble between 2 stargate with a citadel being deployed near that bubble...
another tactic is setup your citadel in WH and farm sleepers with it, specially when it's invulnerable
etc etc |
Salvos Rhoska
2163
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Posted - 2017.02.16 14:08:06 -
[14] - Quote
1) I dont agree with the 100% free/safe/efficient asset safety. 2) I dont agree with them requiring no fueling/upkeep.
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Veyreuth
HIgh Sec Care Bears Brothers of Tangra
7
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Posted - 2017.02.16 14:29:28 -
[15] - Quote
I'm in a similar position as the OP, as I have taken considerable time away from the game. Reading the thread, I get that citadels do offer better quality of life, but how about interacting with others? For market orders there are many more listings from places you can't access. (Is there a way to even filter out a citadel when searching the market?) It's strange exploring wormholes... before you could see what was around on DScan, even if it was safely in a POS... now they dock up and go completely off grid. Many features seem redundant with what already exists in the game. If a citadel can make any system warm and cozy like home, that seems to trivialize content in those systems. Mining/Ratting in some low sec systems seem downright trivial to corporations that set up citadels there... they made the systems "safer", which reduces opportunities for content. These are my gut reactions. Please tell me where I'm off base. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5598
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Posted - 2017.02.16 14:32:22 -
[16] - Quote
Citadels are not quite there yet.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Salvos Rhoska
2163
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Posted - 2017.02.16 14:52:28 -
[17] - Quote
Veyreuth wrote:I It's strange exploring wormholes... before you could see what was around on DScan, even if it was safely in a POS... now they dock up and go completely off grid. Many features seem redundant with what already exists in the game. If a citadel can make any system warm and cozy like home, that seems to trivialize content in those systems. Mining/Ratting in some low sec systems seem downright trivial to corporations that set up citadels there... they made the systems "safer", which reduces opportunities for content. These are my gut reactions. Please tell me where I'm off base.
You raise good questions, and the impetus of your concerns is valid.
1) Yes, Citadels in WH now mean that ships can dock up and disappear. But there are two serious caveats. It is very difficult to construct, or carry in, a Citadel into a hole. Even worse, j-space Citadels have no Asset Safety.
2) Citadels elsewhere either secure operations and greater profit here and/or, fortify the system., depending on sector. In HS, its largely arbitrary, except the matter of marginal market competition and some specific safeties regarding staging. In LS, somewhat the same, but for lesser advantage. In NPC Null, due to general lack of NPC stations, they are genuinely "space homes" . In Player Sov, however, radically, in addition to the above, Citadels also become fortifications that prevent enemy acquisition of your space.
It is in Player Sov where Citadels have their most pronounced and integral effect, as fortification of a system.
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Major Trant
Radchak's Raiders
1601
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Posted - 2017.02.16 17:08:16 -
[18] - Quote
Citadels are a huge quality of life improvement. But there are teething issues with them at the moment and certains mechanics that I don't like.
1. There aren't enough filtering options in your overview for them. You can either turn them off or on. If on, all dockable Citadels in system and all Citadels on grid regardless of docking rights are on your overview. You can't sort by standing. You can't sort by services. You can't tell (I believe) whether you can dock at a Citadel you are on grid with, without actually trying to dock. 2. You shouldn't be allowed to warp directly to them from the entry in the D-Scan window. 3. If they are hidden to you (non docking rights), you should have to probe them down, it should be easy mind, 1 scan at 32 AU should get you a warpin. Not - just look in the main window for the big blue beacon, right click, warp to 100. 4. Citadels shouldn't show how many people are docked from the outside. 5. If nobody has docked since downtime, it tells you this too. Initially, I thought this should be removed, but now I think this should be changed to state when the last time someone was docked there or alternatively whether anyone has docked in the last 24 hours. This is the only way of telling when a Citadel has been abandoned, but currently this has far more value to late US and AU TZs than early EU TZ. 6. Asset recovery should be removed.
People are already complaining about a prolification of them in certain systems. Dealing with points 1 and 6 will remove this problem. |
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort Test Alliance Please Ignore
171
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Posted - 2017.02.16 17:26:12 -
[19] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:Citadels are a huge quality of life improvement. But there are teething issues with them at the moment and certains mechanics that I don't like.
1. There aren't enough filtering options in your overview for them. You can either turn them off or on. If on, all dockable Citadels in system and all Citadels on grid regardless of docking rights are on your overview. You can't sort by standing. You can't sort by services. You can't tell (I believe) whether you can dock at a Citadel you are on grid with, without actually trying to dock. 2. You shouldn't be allowed to warp directly to them from the entry in the D-Scan window. 3. If they are hidden to you (non docking rights), you should have to probe them down, it should be easy mind, 1 scan at 32 AU should get you a warpin. Not - just look in the main window for the big blue beacon, right click, warp to 100. 4. Citadels shouldn't show how many people are docked from the outside. 5. If nobody has docked since downtime, it tells you this too. Initially, I thought this should be removed, but now I think this should be changed to state when the last time someone was docked there or alternatively whether anyone has docked in the last 24 hours. This is the only way of telling when a Citadel has been abandoned, but currently this has far more value to late US and AU TZs than early EU TZ. 6. Asset recovery should be removed.
People are already complaining about a prolification of them in certain systems. Dealing with points 1 and 6 will remove this problem.
Some thoughts:
1. Agree with you, but I would guess in order to do this, it would require a rewrite of the overview. The one issue that does need to be fixed is ALL citadels appears on your overview when you first jump in the system before the overview can filter them.
2. I was surprised by this when I discovered it, but I bet it is a mix of how items appear in the overview, etc. like in part 1.
3. I would agree with this ONLY if they added the notification for structures being anchored in your space that are not your alliances (like they use to for POS). Right now, you have a 15 minute window to kill the thing when it onlines. Completely hiding them like this would make it to easy to sneak one in. Sorry, but forcing someone to go through every single system with a probe launcher every day is not a valid idea as it simply adds a dedious task that serves no purpose. Yes if you own the space you should use it, but if you own the space, you would think the tcu would also alert you to new structures.
4. I will agree with you even though it is very helpful for hunters lol.
5. Was not aware of this but based on your description I agree like in part 4.
6. You do this, you are basically going to force alliances back into stations and out of citadels because the market will go where it is safe (ish). |
Salvos Rhoska
2163
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Posted - 2017.02.16 17:36:04 -
[20] - Quote
Scotsman Howard wrote:6. You do this, you are basically going to force alliances back into stations and out of citadels because the market will go where it is safe (ish).
I agree his proposal of removal of Asset Safety entirely, would result in this.
But that doesnt yet mean 100%safe/efficient/free Asset safety is warranted, either.
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March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
2069
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Posted - 2017.02.16 19:27:50 -
[21] - Quote
Scotsman Howard wrote:Major Trant wrote: 6. Asset recovery should be removed.
6. You do this, you are basically going to force alliances back into stations and out of citadels because the market will go where it is safe (ish). Nope. Every worthwhile alliance will have couple citadels in every system already. Should it be needed all stuff can be moved easily to next citadel. Or so station if it is needed.
Actually asset safety only helps 'little guy'. Or so-called 'casuals'.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1572
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Posted - 2017.02.16 19:46:57 -
[22] - Quote
Asset safety isn't that much of a problem for alliances in Nullsec and J-Space, I think. People are used to loosing stuff stored in POSes anyway.
However, where are citadels supposed to go? If CCP wants to see free for all market hubs on player run citadels, then asset safety is crucial. Just assume that a thousand players from all kinds of corps and alliances have stuff in the market and in their hangars on a citadel, and this citadel gets attacked and destroyed. These neutrals won't all know what's going on, they may not even login in time to see there's something wrong with the citadel. And if there's a good chance that they log in to the game just to find their favourite market hub has been destroyed and all their stuff is gone, they won't ever use citadels for that in any meaningful way and stick to NPC stations forever.
If anything I'd say, keep the asset safety in NPC Null, Low and High, where NPC stations exist, so citadels can become a realistic alternative to NPC stations, and remove it in Sov-Null, because at some point there will not be any more outposts there and alliances will have no choice but to use citadels. |
Expendable Unit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2017.02.16 20:55:31 -
[23] - Quote
Thanks guys, the info you are providing in a nutshell helps understand this much better and is exactly what I was asking for. Appreciate it. |
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