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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1265
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Posted - 2017.02.20 21:44:49 -
[91] - Quote
I'm a monster, Pieter. This isn't news and not an argument that wins you any points. So are you and particularly certain associates of yours. The reason I consider you dishonest is that you claim your targets and other such entities are just as bad as we are.
This is demonstrably not true and smacks all too much of an attempt to justify yourself by dragging those better people down so they suddenly become 'valid' targets.
If you think you've been honest with me, then you're being dishonest with yourself. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3049
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Posted - 2017.02.20 21:51:08 -
[92] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Probably was going around Yakening things up, as usual.
If you are right, then it is explainable why they don't want to give details. They have said they were defending honor, but Yaken is the one who doesn't have it, he is the one of the most disgraced pseudo-mercenaries our cluster knew, and if this situation indeed turned out to be a result of Yaken's another betrayal, that would mean that Akagi hit a new level of low.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Alizabeth Vea
Seraph's Wings Vengeful Seraph
1055
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Posted - 2017.02.20 21:57:37 -
[93] - Quote
Sandbags!
Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.
"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I
Virtue. Valor. Victory.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3049
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Posted - 2017.02.20 22:06:21 -
[94] - Quote
Ma'am, Yes, Ma'am!
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7123
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Posted - 2017.02.20 22:24:38 -
[95] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I'm a monster, Pieter. This isn't news and not an argument that wins you any points. So are you and particularly certain associates of yours. The reason I consider you dishonest is that you claim your targets and other such entities are just as bad as we are.
This is demonstrably not true and smacks all too much of an attempt to justify yourself by dragging those better people down so they suddenly become 'valid' targets.
If you think you've been honest with me, then you're being dishonest with yourself.
Well, if it comes to that, I'm fairly sure I've seen those pilots you're talking about in the FDU. As far as I'm concerned, that makes them every bit as despicable as anyone I fly with.
Tools of the oppressors and all that.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
385
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Posted - 2017.02.20 22:49:18 -
[96] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Probably was going around Yakening things up, as usual.
If you are right, then it is explainable why they don't want to give details. They have said they were defending honor, but Yaken is the one who doesn't have it, he is the one of the most disgraced pseudo-mercenaries our cluster knew, and if this situation indeed turned out to be a result of Yaken's another betrayal, that would mean that Akagi hit a new level of low. It's all in the first post Mrs Kim. Former Pyre brother joined Akagi, his former CEO was Taisho Xun Yu of Sanxing, it is as specific as it can be. |
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
366
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Posted - 2017.02.20 23:17:50 -
[97] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Well, if it comes to that, I'm fairly sure I've seen those pilots you're talking about in the FDU. As far as I'm concerned, that makes them every bit as despicable as anyone I fly with.
Tools of the oppressors and all that. Excuse me, which pilots? |
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
366
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Posted - 2017.02.20 23:41:48 -
[98] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:For the record, Sanxing had no intention of using violence against Akagi/I-RED. Our "unacceptable ultimatum": dismiss the disputed individual from the shelter of Akagi/I-RED within seven days. Our measured and civilized idea of consequences: public release of the details of what the individual did and no possibility of positive relations with I-RED in the future. (By now people can piece together from this thread what was done and by whom anyway.)
Is no one going to mention this or is this too inconvenient to consider for all the warring done?
(Kolodi, you may as well do this anyway.)
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
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Kalaratiri
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
858
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Posted - 2017.02.20 23:56:19 -
[99] - Quote
Why should we have waited to see what Sanxing considered to be "appropriate" consequences after a threat was made?
If someone threatens unspecified revenge and you have the opportunity to remove the threat, why wouldn't you?
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
368
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:08:09 -
[100] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Why should we have waited to see what Sanxing considered to be "appropriate" consequences after a threat was made?
If someone threatens unspecified revenge and you have the opportunity to remove the threat, why wouldn't you?
Now I'm wondering why the "we" you speak of would be worried about a humanitarian corporation. Oh no, watch out, a press release! Hard Knocks is doomed.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
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Kalaratiri
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
858
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:10:20 -
[101] - Quote
At no point have I even pretended that I am operating under Hard Knock's direction or interest.
Don't be dumb.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
369
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:11:18 -
[102] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Why should we have waited to see what Sanxing considered to be "appropriate" consequences after a threat was made?
If someone threatens unspecified revenge and you have the opportunity to remove the threat, why wouldn't you? We did not threaten unspecified revenge. We told I-RED the consequences would be this, not more and not less: "public release of the details of what the individual did and no possibility of positive relations with I-RED in the future." If the third parties who declared war on us were not aware of what was actually said, maybe they should have checked. |
Keramor
Achura-Waschi Exchange Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
11
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:15:12 -
[103] - Quote
Yo, it's quite simple. A message was sent. We stick out for our mates, both current and former. **** with one of us and there we go. We looked at opportunities and this one basically presented itself on a silver platter - only a fool wouldn't have taken it. I'm sure there's some more politics attached to all of this but personally speaking? I don't care a bit about that. Having someone's back, that's what counts. If that's an alien concept open your eyes and look over New Eden, it's happening all over the bloody place. |
Kalaratiri
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
858
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:16:32 -
[104] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Kalaratiri wrote:Why should we have waited to see what Sanxing considered to be "appropriate" consequences after a threat was made?
If someone threatens unspecified revenge and you have the opportunity to remove the threat, why wouldn't you? We did not threaten unspecified revenge. We told I-RED the consequences would be this, not more and not less: "public release of the details of what the individual did and no possibility of positive relations with I-RED in the future." If the third parties who declared war on us were not aware of what was actually said, maybe they should have checked.
If you would take another look at my post, you would see that the "unspecified" bit is actually under a theoretical example.
We were well aware of the contents of the ultimatum.
We considered our actions to be an appropriate response to it.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7126
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:32:25 -
[105] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Well, if it comes to that, I'm fairly sure I've seen those pilots you're talking about in the FDU. As far as I'm concerned, that makes them every bit as despicable as anyone I fly with.
Tools of the oppressors and all that. Excuse me, which pilots?
You know what, you're right. I've just trawled my records and there's no sign of any FDU affiliation besides the very occaisional mention in league with GMVA. I retract that comment without reservation. I must have been thinking of Aedre.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7127
|
Posted - 2017.02.21 00:39:01 -
[106] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Kalaratiri wrote:Why should we have waited to see what Sanxing considered to be "appropriate" consequences after a threat was made?
If someone threatens unspecified revenge and you have the opportunity to remove the threat, why wouldn't you? We did not threaten unspecified revenge. We told I-RED the consequences would be this, not more and not less: "public release of the details of what the individual did and no possibility of positive relations with I-RED in the future." If the third parties who declared war on us were not aware of what was actually said, maybe they should have checked.
You might be failing to remember certain financial dimensions to Sanxing's relationship with I-Red that this ultimatum threatened.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Julianni Avala
Ishukone-Raata Corporate Investment Bank Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
146
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:43:54 -
[107] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:If you would take another look at my post, you would see that the "unspecified" bit is actually under a theoretical example.
We were well aware of the contents of the ultimatum.
We considered our actions to be an appropriate response to it.
I would be extremely interested in knowing where exactly you learned the details of the ultimatum that was, as far as I-RED was concerned, confidential and to be kept between the involved parties.
I would also like to make it very clear to everyone that only myself and Executor Hinkelmann are the only ones speaking on behalf of I-RED. |
Alex Hinkelmann
Ishukone-Raata Corporate Investment Bank Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
176
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:49:32 -
[108] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You might be failing to remember certain financial dimensions to Sanxing's relationship with I-Red that this ultimatum threatened.
What is discussed in private should remain there pilot.
I-RED Executor || Operation Grey Steel© Overseer || Syndicate Stability Initiative II©
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7127
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Posted - 2017.02.21 01:04:01 -
[109] - Quote
Alex Hinkelmann wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You might be failing to remember certain financial dimensions to Sanxing's relationship with I-Red that this ultimatum threatened. What is discussed in private should remain there pilot.
Apologies. The circumstances leading up to his situation are fairly tangled and it is challenging to remember what is classified and what is public. I will withdraw from this discussion, since I have no wish to accidentally betray any mroe confidences, nor attempt to defend myself with half the truth.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Alizabeth Vea
Seraph's Wings Vengeful Seraph
1055
|
Posted - 2017.02.21 01:15:48 -
[110] - Quote
Keramor wrote:Yo, it's quite simple. A message was sent. We stick out for our mates, both current and former. **** with one of us and there we go. I respect you and yours a lot for this.
Completely unrelated side note. How does a Caldari alliance get a cute Ni-Kunni spokeswoman and mine does not? I need to go recruiting.
Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.
"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I
Virtue. Valor. Victory.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3055
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Posted - 2017.02.21 02:12:20 -
[111] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:For the record, Sanxing had no intention of using violence against Akagi/I-RED. Our "unacceptable ultimatum": dismiss the disputed individual from the shelter of Akagi/I-RED within seven days. Our measured and civilized idea of consequences: public release of the details of what the individual did and no possibility of positive relations with I-RED in the future. (By now people can piece together from this thread what was done and by whom anyway.) I believe that means you owe us all official public release with explanation. I don't know how it goes in the Federation, but in the State if you gave a word (a promise, or a threat), you must follow it.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Alizabeth Vea
Seraph's Wings Vengeful Seraph
1056
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Posted - 2017.02.21 02:35:07 -
[112] - Quote
When can I come and inspect your sandbags?
Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.
"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I
Virtue. Valor. Victory.
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
387
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Posted - 2017.02.21 02:59:29 -
[113] - Quote
This discourse is growing even more pointless. Certain elements here a very vocal in Sanxings defence and are casting aspersions on the character of some of Sanxings adversaries.
The following is my personal view:
Reflecting on my own experience from a time outside of MITG/MCF1B I recall a situation I experienced in another Corporation. A theif had infiltrated the Corporation and cleared out most of the groups communal assets over 20 Billion ISK all told and had destroyed some of the Corporations infrastructure on the way out. The CEO and XO were devastated and reassured the members that things would be ok and that time would be needed to repair our fortunes. Morale initially was hit hard, if one of us could do this how many other members could be trusted? The members and officers however banded together despite leaderships protests that they should be the ones to shoulder responsibility and donated extra time, personal assets and ISK directly back into the Corporation that had looked after them so well in the past. Our allies expressed their sympathies and provided logistical aid where possible. All of this was whilst being enlisted in the TLF, having to prosecute a war and living in Low Security space. The Corporation pulled together under solid leadership, genuine loyalty from members, a positive attitude and ultimately became the most powerful TLF enlisted Corporation for a time.
This situation in contrast, was a CONCORD sanctioned attack where Sanxings adversaries engaged them over the course of a week without duplicity. Sanxing had the mandatory grace period before hostilities commenced to make what preparations it could. One small Citadel (which may have been donated to Sanxing in the first place) and some other minor in space assets were destroyed totalling a fraction of the damage my old corporation suffered due to internal sabotage. If Sanxing could not recover from this up front engagement and its allies besides the Minmatar (who I beleive suffered more ISK losses than Sanxing) would not come to their military aid over the course of a week or financial/leadership aid subsequently then perhaps you should focus on what exactly the virtues of this Corporation are you are so vehemently defending here, where words are cheap and your physical actions in its defence are sorely lacking.
Say what you want about MITG or others. We stand up for our members, our leaders and our associates in good standing. The level of support for Sanxing here on the IGS compared to the practical help they received or are receiving is appalling. Likewise the military action taken can not be portrayed as anything other than a minor inconvenience to a Corporation led well, with loyal members and the support of allies and friends. Especially as you know from our official statement that MITG are happy to regard hostilities as ceased.
Consider the above carefully and ask are you a sort of friend like MITG or I-RED or Electus Matari? Or are you simply some moralising bystander willing to give every support to your friends short of actually helping.
Once again this is my personal view and I do not presume to speak for any other entity. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9193
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Posted - 2017.02.21 05:33:11 -
[114] - Quote
As an uninformed and unengaged outsider, these are a great many words spent over what amounts to a modest sum of infrastructure.
As to Sanxing 'not using violence,' I should contend that threats of any sort are a violence of a sort. Action was demanded, with threat made; various forces decided to engage in a more overt show of force.
That this is worthy of so many words is, to be honest, quite strange.
The best course of action from this point forward is for all to dust themselves off, to learn from this event, and to carry on with greater understanding of how others act in such a course of events as this.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
372
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Posted - 2017.02.21 07:10:23 -
[115] - Quote
We wouldn't mind rebuilding, but there is no reason to. Our most important objectives were already accomplished months ago. We could continue slowly building up Lirsautton, but we will never have any stronger footing than we had during this conflict - that's not a complaint, just an observation of the facts that there isn't an unlimited number of possible capsuleer allies for a small Federation-loyal humanitarian organization and there are really few possible capsuleer recruits for such an organization. We could continue patrolling the Ysiette constellation, but we aren't egotistical enough to believe other local capsuleers won't keep a lid on Serpentis and rogue drone activity in the area. Basically, Sanxing's existence as an interstellar entity is redundant to requirements. And because of unrelated circumstances, Xun Yu has to focus on planetside matters, which leaves me with the theoretical leadership of Sanxing and this decision. |
Alizabeth Vea
Seraph's Wings Vengeful Seraph
1059
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Posted - 2017.02.21 07:14:37 -
[116] - Quote
Can someone explain to me what a humanitarian organization is? Just so we're on the same page.
Edit: I know I can be flippant. However, I would like to actually know what you mean by humanitarian organization. What defines it specifically?
Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.
"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I
Virtue. Valor. Victory.
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Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1567
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Posted - 2017.02.21 07:22:50 -
[117] - Quote
Personally I just want to chime in and say a corporation only becomes surplus to requirements when you let it be. The best corporations adapt and overcome when trouble hits. They switch focus, come up with new ideas or walk a new path. They don't just keel over and die.
I think of when a corporation I helped found lost well in excess of 40b in assets from a patient thief. It was embarrassing and quite a hard blow. That corporation is still here. I also think of another corporation I was a part of that lost all of its space after considerable investment into reaction tower networks by the line members. That corporation is also still here.
One doesn't gain respect or satisfaction by achieving one or two big things then trumpeting about it before bowing out at the right time. One gains them through the sweat of the brow bullying through hard times and, much like tempered steel beaten out and blasted in a furnace, coming out stronger.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Julianni Avala
Ishukone-Raata Corporate Investment Bank Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
154
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Posted - 2017.02.21 07:28:37 -
[118] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Personally I just want to chime in and say a corporation only becomes surplus to requirements when you let it be. The best corporations adapt and overcome when trouble hits. They switch focus, come up with new ideas or walk a new path. They don't just keel over and die.
I think of when a corporation I helped found lost well in excess of 40b in assets from a patient thief. It was embarrassing and quite a hard blow. That corporation is still here. I also think of another corporation I was a part of that lost all of its space after considerable investment into reaction tower networks by the line members. That corporation is also still here.
One doesn't gain respect or satisfaction by achieving one or two big things then trumpeting about it before bowing out at the right time. One gains them through the sweat of the brow bullying through hard times and, much like tempered steel beaten out and blasted in a furnace, coming out stronger.
Well said, Mister Onzo. I think you explained it better than many of us ever could.
EDIT: To add, I-RED certainly doesn't want to see Sanxing stop it's hard work. Despite what has happened, we sincerely respect Sanxing for all it's worked towards and hope it continues rather than folds. |
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
374
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Posted - 2017.02.21 07:48:03 -
[119] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:Can someone explain to me what a humanitarian organization is? Just so we're on the same page.
Edit: I know I can be flippant. However, I would like to actually know what you mean by humanitarian organization. What defines it specifically? It varies. What it means when we describe Sanxing as a humanitarian organization: Sanxing was created specifically to administer humanitarian aid to the population of the Jin-Mei homeplanet. The aid came from numerous parties through the Villore Assembly - the job of Sanxing was to disburse it. When the relief effort contributed to the Jin-Mei civil war reaching a ceasefire, our new jobs were to help rebuild and to facilitate peace negotiations. The rebuilding hasn't really depended on interstellar support for a little while now, and our facilitations are well in place, so we turned our capsuleer activity to nurturing the prosperity and security of Lirsautton, Ysiette, and the wider Federation when possible. All the while, our internal policies were designed to prioritize baseliner lives and concerns.
It was never for its own sake that Sanxing existed. |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
649
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Posted - 2017.02.21 07:58:55 -
[120] - Quote
On a personal note -- while I can respect dedication to ideals, it is my sincere hope that Sanxing pilots currently leaving the nest will do so galvanized instead of broken, with a renewed understanding of why it is important to fight for what you believe in, as opposed to merely suffering beautifully. The capsuleer class is only as useful to humanity as it is pugnacious.
Bullets have a beauty and I don't know why.
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