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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Vladof Alduin
The Graduates The Initiative.
10
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Posted - 2017.02.20 21:12:22 -
[1] - Quote
Where every ongrid ship and what they do(movement, module activation) is recorded on our computer with an external program. So we can actually make some good videos instead of recording everything from 500k away with a fixed camera. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
354
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Posted - 2017.02.20 21:35:48 -
[2] - Quote
m8 you should learn to use your cam.... a little better i suppose |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59274
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Posted - 2017.02.20 21:45:56 -
[3] - Quote
Vladof Alduin wrote:Where every ongrid ship and what they do(movement, module activation) is recorded on our computer with an external program. So we can actually make some good videos instead of recording everything from 500k away with a fixed camera. I like the idea.
CCP, make it so.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
42
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Posted - 2017.02.20 23:49:13 -
[4] - Quote
I like this idea too |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1580
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:03:25 -
[5] - Quote
This idea has already come up a couple times. And I support it. Although I think an external program should not be needed. Everyone who has played Lineage 2 should have an idea how this could work:
The client needs to know anyway where everything it sees is, and what it does. So it would only be a matter of saving it to the local disk tick for tick. This combat log could then be replayed from within the game. The game client would then just get the locations, movement vectors, active modules and so on from that file instead of the server.
This would allow everyone to record battles even without having a resource hungry video encoder running while they are playing. Especially for people with weaker systems this would be nice. It would also allow players to make videos without having to fast-forward due to TiDi, without having the interface in the way and with proper camera movement. |
Cade Windstalker
848
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:07:25 -
[6] - Quote
This sounds like a ton of work for a really niche and somewhat questionable benefit. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
1122
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Posted - 2017.02.21 00:54:17 -
[7] - Quote
A "built-in Fraps"? Been a long while since I last saw that proposed. Unfortunately, I can't see why CCP would add it now if they haven't already. No reason not to, though, it's a pretty neat idea that pops up once in a while. Would go well with the camera system we have now (tactical mostly), at least to do something akin to a BDA/AAR or training. Could help video makers, too.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Loutro Fift
The Killer Cockatoos Initiative Mercenaries
47
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Posted - 2017.02.21 03:06:06 -
[8] - Quote
Vladof Alduin wrote:Where every ongrid ship and what they do(movement, module activation) is recorded on our computer with an external program. So we can actually make some good videos instead of recording everything from 500k away with a fixed camera.
Never. Gonna. Happen.
You have any idea how much processing power would be required to capture every ship and what they do? And file size? Where is that being stored?
People are already making good videos. Learn from them. |
Cade Windstalker
848
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Posted - 2017.02.21 03:33:02 -
[9] - Quote
Loutro Fift wrote:Vladof Alduin wrote:Where every ongrid ship and what they do(movement, module activation) is recorded on our computer with an external program. So we can actually make some good videos instead of recording everything from 500k away with a fixed camera. Never. Gonna. Happen. You have any idea how much processing power would be required to capture every ship and what they do? And file size? Where is that being stored? People are already making good videos. Learn from them.
And this is pretty much the issue right here. During a big fleet fight your computer doesn't actually get updates about absolutely everything going on on-grid, just the relevant ones like ships exploding or things that happen to your ship or targets. Pointing the entire contents of the B-R5RB fight at the average consumer internet connection would be like turning a fire hose on a 5 year old's drinking straw.
For reference, with the current log setup, 5 hours of just my ship out shooting rats is about half a MB. If we take that as a ballpark that's about a tenth of a MB of data per hour per ship. That means you're generating about 100mb of data per 1000 people.
On top of that creating a system to actually replay all of that would be a massive expense of time and energy for CCP. Games that have this sort of replay feature tend to either be built with it in mind or have it introduced fairly early on in their history. The ones that try to introduce it late tend to have a ton of replay bugs as a result.
Oh and that's without getting into the fun things you could do if you could mine the logs in real time to determine things like probable fittings, rep timings on enemy ships, and all sorts of other fun. |
Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
42
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Posted - 2017.02.21 03:45:51 -
[10] - Quote
TBH I didn't read the op properly and thought we were talking about something like a better battle log window that people could have scrolling on the side in their leet pvp montages. However...
There was an mmo called firefall, an open world first person shooter, that had a debug replay system. Any player could open up the console and start saving frame by frame data.
You could then access the replay via the console and fly around inside the replay with a free camera.
Eve doesn't calculate things like projectile weapon physics and so on. It uses a lot of interpolation when showing the players moving around. I think that such a system would be even easier to implement. |
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Menamanama
University of Caille Gallente Federation
49
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Posted - 2017.02.21 04:09:54 -
[11] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:This sounds like a ton of work for a really niche and somewhat questionable benefit.
You must of never have played a game which allows recording. There is heaps of benefit as a player to review what happened. During the battle it is all happening too quick often to pick up the nuisances.
Also it is way better for youtube content providers. And that is an area of huge free marketing for the game producer.
I thought this was a feature in most modern games ? And that it would be a given that they would be looking into it. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3627
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Posted - 2017.02.21 07:42:22 -
[12] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: And this is pretty much the issue right here. During a big fleet fight your computer doesn't actually get updates about absolutely everything going on on-grid, just the relevant ones like ships exploding or things that happen to your ship or targets. Pointing the entire contents of the B-R5RB fight at the average consumer internet connection would be like turning a fire hose on a 5 year old's drinking straw.
The client already receives all the data relevant to the client so he can display the battle in the first place. Op is merely asking to log that down into a file.
Cade Windstalker wrote: For reference, with the current log setup, 5 hours of just my ship out shooting rats is about half a MB. If we take that as a ballpark that's about a tenth of a MB of data per hour per ship. That means you're generating about 100mb of data per 1000 people.
As you said the client does not receive everything about every ship, so to use your own ship where you get all the data is a bad base for this assumption. Also even if it was 100MB that's still not a lot and far less than a screen capture.
Cade Windstalker wrote: On top of that creating a system to actually replay all of that would be a massive expense of time and energy for CCP. Games that have this sort of replay feature tend to either be built with it in mind or have it introduced fairly early on in their history. The ones that try to introduce it late tend to have a ton of replay bugs as a result.
Like the OP says, this could be done in an external program. A lot of people put a lot of time and effort into such things for free if you only give them the means to do it. Look at the whole modding scene.
Cade Windstalker wrote:Oh and that's without getting into the fun things you could do if you could mine the logs in real time to determine things like probable fittings, rep timings on enemy ships, and all sorts of other fun. Again, you don't get all the data anyway.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
396
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Posted - 2017.02.21 09:24:23 -
[13] - Quote
hell no, they would claim its to much work to keep updated with the game like they did the igb. not to mention it'd have to be set to keep the video on your comp and not sending it to the servers, along with the increase amount of responses the server would have to keep up with causing more lag chances.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3627
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Posted - 2017.02.21 10:04:13 -
[14] - Quote
Agondray wrote:hell no, they would claim its to much work to keep updated with the game like they did the igb. not to mention it'd have to be set to keep the video on your comp and not sending it to the servers, along with the increase amount of responses the server would have to keep up with causing more lag chances. I don't think you understand at all what OP is talking about
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
162
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Posted - 2017.02.21 11:52:41 -
[15] - Quote
Well there used to be a tool using API or something to give us an action replay of alliance tournament matches. reading all the positions and being able to replay them or something... (It's not the eve-nt thing i think, i just don't seem to be able to find it ;() |
Demolishar
United Aggression Corpse Collectors Group
1230
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Posted - 2017.02.21 12:01:41 -
[16] - Quote
As long as it doesn't let you get free real-time intel that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get, I don't see any problem with this idea apart from that it would require dev time. |
March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2074
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Posted - 2017.02.21 12:10:07 -
[17] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:As long as it doesn't let you get free real-time intel that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get, I don't see any problem with this idea apart from that it would require dev time. That's the only real concern here: can this logging system be used by botting system? I've heard there are (or were in past) bots which are able to run combat missions using only UI. Giving such system real-time digitalized information....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
58
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Posted - 2017.02.21 13:23:40 -
[18] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Agondray wrote:hell no, they would claim its to much work to keep updated with the game like they did the igb. not to mention it'd have to be set to keep the video on your comp and not sending it to the servers, along with the increase amount of responses the server would have to keep up with causing more lag chances. I don't think you understand at all what OP is talking about
OP is talking about having a system a lot like World of Tanks, where the entire battle is saved and players can go back and see the replay of the entire 15 minute match on that map not from a players perspective, but watching all the different ships depending on who you're focusing on. In that case yeah, your server is going to have a rough time, |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1582
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Posted - 2017.02.21 13:53:01 -
[19] - Quote
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:OP is talking about having a system a lot like World of Tanks, where the entire battle is saved and players can go back and see the replay of the entire 15 minute match on that map not from a players perspective, but watching all the different ships depending on who you're focusing on. In that case yeah, your server is going to have a rough time, Not really. Just log what the client sees anyway, and build a function into the client to replay those logs. No additional server load whatsoever - all the load would be client-side. It would be optional (click a record button) and much much lighter load than fraps or any other video capturing software, especially during tidi, considering it would have to save stuff every 1-10 seconds only.
No detailed fitting information and nothing you would not see anyway during the battle. Just ships flying around, weapon effects and explosions. Of course those files could be shared or used to make videos, but they'd not be available through API. |
Cade Windstalker
848
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Posted - 2017.02.21 14:29:49 -
[20] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:The client already receives all the data relevant to the client so he can display the battle in the first place. Op is merely asking to log that down into a file.
It receives what is needed to display the battle, mostly, but not in a loggable format and not completely. Fun fact, did you know guns on most ships don't display until you view the ship? Same goes for a lot of other little details that are culled for the sake of bandwidth and client performance.
Similarly your client knows nothing about the HP of anything it doesn't have targeted or watchlisted (and the latter updates more infrequently) it only knows whether or not they've exploded. The end result of trying to replay this sort of thing back in any detail would be, I suspect, rather lackluster.
Ima Wreckyou wrote:As you said the client does not receive everything about every ship, so to use your own ship where you get all the data is a bad base for this assumption. Also even if it was 100MB that's still not a lot and far less than a screen capture.
Yes, but that screen capture isn't coming down over my local network, and as I said above your client receives a very cut down version of events, not enough to necessarily play things back in any kind of detail.
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Like the OP says, this could be done in an external program. A lot of people put a lot of time and effort into such things for free if you only give them the means to do it. Look at the whole modding scene.
Rewriting Eve's rendering in an external program would be an even more massive undertaking. On top of that you're basically asking CCP to create a dump file for a theoretical third party app that may or may not ever even exist and will likely need at least some support from their side to get working in the first place.
Menamanama wrote:You must of never have played a game which allows recording. There is heaps of benefit as a player to review what happened. During the battle it is all happening too quick often to pick up the nuisances.
Also it is way better for youtube content providers. And that is an area of huge free marketing for the game producer.
I thought this was a feature in most modern games ? And that it would be a given that they would be looking into it.
I have, in fact, played quite a few of these games. They almost always have some inherent e-sports or commentary value in their gameplay. Eve does in some limited areas but there's only so much you can say about a big fleet fight that can't already be done with existing tools. It's not like there's any need in Eve to show trick shots, replay events for a better view, or really do anything other than slow down or pause a video for an explanation of the tactics or strategy have are being/have been/are about to be used.
Also no, it's absolutely not a feature in most modern games, at all. Any game that's going to integrate this sort of playback has to do so more or less from the start, and only games with deterministic engines and a strong belief that their game is going to produce the kind of commentary-style Youtube content that actually benefits from this sort of playback setup invest the time and energy into developing it.
It's also seriously non-trivial to develop, since getting things captured in such a way that you can play it back accurately is non-trivial as well, and contrary to the person above's assumption the client doesn't generally have all the info it needs for an accurate playback since bits and pieces get culled out for efficiency. |
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1584
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Posted - 2017.02.21 20:52:13 -
[21] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:It receives what is needed to display the battle, mostly, but not in a loggable format and not completely. Fun fact, did you know guns on most ships don't display until you view the ship? Same goes for a lot of other little details that are culled for the sake of bandwidth and client performance.
Similarly your client knows nothing about the HP of anything it doesn't have targeted or watchlisted (and the latter updates more infrequently) it only knows whether or not they've exploded. The end result of trying to replay this sort of thing back in any detail would be, I suspect, rather lackluster. Ok, so the guns wouldn't show up in the replay except on your own ship or the ones you have looked at. So what? They don't show up in the game either, nor do they in a captured video. Only the projectiles and beams do. Showing anything you would not see during the battle would be additional intel anyway. It also would not need to show the HP of ships. The client knows whether or not they are alive, and that's enough for a replay.
I still think it would only be a matter of saving what the client sees anyway, and write a log parser so the games engine can play it back. This should really not increase server load whatsoever and it should not be a big undertaking either. I'm just taking a guess: The biggest hurdle would probably be undocumented ~legacy code~, as it always is. But they will have to touch it sooner or later anyway, and when they do, they can just as well give us a replay feature.
And really, we already can get this sort of replay logs for the alliance tournament, but to play them back we need to use a third party viewer outside of the game (Eve NTs Alliance Tournament viewer). This proves that it is technically possible. And if a couple of guys over there at Eve NT can do it, it would be rather pathetic if CCP could not. |
Cade Windstalker
852
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Posted - 2017.02.21 21:40:56 -
[22] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Ok, so the guns wouldn't show up in the replay except on your own ship or the ones you have looked at. So what? They don't show up in the game either, nor do they in a captured video. Only the projectiles and beams do. Showing anything you would not see during the battle would be additional intel anyway. It also would not need to show the HP of ships. The client knows whether or not they are alive, and that's enough for a replay.
I still think it would only be a matter of saving what the client sees anyway, and write a log parser so the games engine can play it back. This should really not increase server load whatsoever and it should not be a big undertaking either. I'm just taking a guess: The biggest hurdle would probably be undocumented ~legacy code~, as it always is. But they will have to touch it sooner or later anyway, and when they do, they can just as well give us a replay feature.
And really, we already can get this sort of replay logs for the alliance tournament, but to play them back we need to use a third party viewer outside of the game (Eve NTs Alliance Tournament viewer). This proves that it is technically possible. And if a couple of guys over there at Eve NT can do it, it would be rather pathetic if CCP could not.
First off, no, the biggest hurdle here wouldn't actually be legacy code it would be capturing everything the client would need for playback (new code), writing everything out in a format that's usable (new code), and writing the huge mess of code that would allow it to be played back (tons of new code).
This isn't even as simple as just feeding data into the client because the client expects to be playing a game, and if it doesn't get certain responses it will assume a disconnect has happened and shut off.
I also personally suspect that the server avoids sending a lot more extraneous data than you think, with the end result being a lot of kinda jerky ships if they were way off away from your camera/ship/something at the time of 'recording'. The general counter argument at this point is "but it's better than nothing!" to which I respond, 'yes, but once CCP has released something they have to support it and field complaints about how bad things look and why the thing should be improved' and "It's better than nothing" flies about as well as a brick sandwich when a dev says it.
The Alliance Tournament replayer is based off of server logs and is, if I had to guess, literally a stripped down 'camera-client' being fed server replay data, not anything that a player could use because the server has all the answers and can use them to calculate game state. |
Orakkus
Imperium Technologies DARKNESS.
324
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Posted - 2017.02.21 21:50:21 -
[23] - Quote
Wait, didn't they have something like this for an Alliance Tournament a few years back? I think it was 2013 or 2014, where you could see how the battle played out?
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2413
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Posted - 2017.02.21 22:20:04 -
[24] - Quote
This topic comes up now and then. As it turns out, it's incredibly difficult to retrofit onto a system that was designed without such recording in mind.
Quote:Wait, didn't they have something like this for an Alliance Tournament a few years back? I think it was 2013 or 2014, where you could see how the battle played out? Yes, there was an experimental API for providing live access to what happened on-grid for each match in the AT. My understanding (which is somewhat shaky) is that it relied heavily on the tournament tools that we use internally for setting up and administering each match to generate and publish the data.
As has been pointed out here, such a system would have to record the game state server-side to be able to provide a complete picture of what was going on in a replay, and that would be a huge problem to solve.
I don't expect to see anything like that added to Eve, although I admit that being able to step through a replay of arbitrary in-game events would possibly be the coolest feature ever, if it were possible.
Edit: A feature like that would also raise all kinds of horrible game design problems related to leaking intel after an engagement. I'll leave that analysis to those who think deeply about such matters for a living. I do not.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
42
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Posted - 2017.02.21 23:24:31 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:This topic comes up now and then. As it turns out, it's incredibly difficult to retrofit onto a system that was designed without such recording in mind. Quote:Wait, didn't they have something like this for an Alliance Tournament a few years back? I think it was 2013 or 2014, where you could see how the battle played out? Yes, there was an experimental API for providing live access to what happened on-grid for each match in the AT. My understanding (which is somewhat shaky) is that it relied heavily on the tournament tools that we use internally for setting up and administering each match to generate and publish the data. As has been pointed out here, such a system would have to record the game state server-side to be able to provide a complete picture of what was going on in a replay, and that would be a huge problem to solve. I don't expect to see anything like that added to Eve, although I admit that being able to step through a replay of arbitrary in-game events would possibly be the coolest feature ever, if it were possible. Edit: A feature like that would also raise all kinds of horrible game design problems related to leaking intel after an engagement. I'll leave that analysis to those who think deeply about such matters for a living. I do not.
Thanks. What about the client only side of the discussion here? excuse any ignorance. |
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
1262
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Posted - 2017.02.21 23:47:10 -
[26] - Quote
They'll get to it after Captain's Quarters.
@lunettelulu7
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2414
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Posted - 2017.02.22 01:02:59 -
[27] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:Thanks. What about the client only side of the discussion here? excuse any ignorance. Still very hard to implement, and would lack a lot of the information you'd like to see, even things you think you might expect but that aren't actually sent to your client during a fight. It wouldn't necessarily be much better than recording a video yourself.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1585
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Posted - 2017.02.22 01:13:18 -
[28] - Quote
Oh bloody hell CCP Killjoy Darwin! Can you not once come here and say "Sure, I can do that!". That would be really nice. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
9
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Posted - 2017.02.22 01:41:13 -
[29] - Quote
You have an environment where something was not recorded for bragging rights?!
Hallelujah! It's not like people don't already do this. Well, they do it the reasonable, humanly responsible way - they record their own screens, with their own programs, since they are the ones that want it...
Seriously. We don't need MORE lag because the server is recording **** that people should be doing, themselves. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2414
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Posted - 2017.02.22 02:06:40 -
[30] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Oh bloody hell CCP Killjoy Darwin! Can you not once come here and say "Sure, I can do that!". That would be really nice. I agree, it would be a lot more fun to talk about what we are doing. All in good time. :)
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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