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LouHodo
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
47
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Posted - 2017.02.21 22:59:03 -
[1] - Quote
So recently reading over the EULA, it has come to my attention there is a massive gap in the EULA.
Rule 6 section C, item 16, which states...
"You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules."
Technically anything anyone does IN game can effect another persons enjoyment, thus violate this rule.
This is by far the most obtuse rule I have seen in a EULA in a very long time. It is like saying, "Have fun, but dont have to much fun."
I suggest this rule be readdressed and or removed as it is just pointless in an open pvp atmosphere game like EVE.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
356
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Posted - 2017.02.21 23:11:51 -
[2] - Quote
it's a way to stop people from camping the same guy at the same station 24/7 for 1 year! |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27723
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Posted - 2017.02.21 23:12:12 -
[3] - Quote
It's boilerplate legalese.
As long as you stay within the rules and don't push your luck (see post above) it's fine to interfere with the game play of others, interference with the game play of others causes conflict, which is a very large part of what drives the game.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
215
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Posted - 2017.02.21 23:12:24 -
[4] - Quote
The rule is left intentionally vague. Because that way they have freedom to ban people for abusive or griefing behavior. Or for taking advantage of unforseen exploits. Without needing to spell out every single one of the potential behaviors. Which even if they tried, someone would do something potentially bannable and then whine "but the eula didn't specifically say I couldn't do this"
For example, a few years ago they made ganking, baiting, etc of players within the newbie spawn systems a bannable offense. Now it's been a while since I've actually read the entire eula but I doublt that point is included. Because it falls under c-16 |
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
426
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Posted - 2017.02.22 00:28:04 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:...in accordance with it's rules
As long as you're following the other rules, this rule does not apply.
KB
Dum Spiro Spero
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1585
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Posted - 2017.02.22 01:30:33 -
[6] - Quote
The thing with the EULA is, that it's formulated in a way that CCP can space-lawyer it any way they bloody well like. My favourite example is this:
Quote:You may not use [...] patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.
Without specifying what "ordinary Game play" is, this could be anything. May I use a mouse? With more than two buttons? And a scrollwheel? May I sit in a comfy chair or do I have to stand?
One might say that common sense should be enough to not break the rules, but this has been proven to be false.
Most rules in the EULA and ToS are like this. They can kick you out for whatever reason they want, and will always find a reason in their terms for it. (not that they could not kick you out for no reason at all, it would just make them look bad).
I'm with Jonah Gravenstein: Just don't stretch your luck. Don't be a massive prick and if anyone with a colorful name tells you to stop doing something, stop doing it.
From my experience, accidentally doing something CCP consider inacceptable will not result in a (permanent) ban right away (with the exception of a few very high profile examples. If whatever you are doing causes a community shitstorm, then chances are high that you are f\\ked). So, don't worry about it too much. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
9
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Posted - 2017.02.22 01:37:39 -
[7] - Quote
It's a very common 'rule,' designed to be so obtuse and generic that it allows selective enforcement.
It's corp-speak for 'we can eliminate your account for any reason we want,' which is superfluous, since they already said that, too. |
Vortexo VonBrenner
Raumfahrer Spiff Rakett Piloot Anslutning
2672
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Posted - 2017.02.22 01:59:53 -
[8] - Quote
OP, you didn't really think you had found a gaping error CCP's lawyers and everyone else who has ever read that EULA somehow missed, did you?
oh my...
EvE security zones in pictures
EvE quick reference pdf
EvE links
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59334
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Posted - 2017.02.22 03:34:23 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah, I agree and there's a few other rules that are also like that.
As most everyone else has stated, it's done like that on purpose to give CCP lot's of leeway to make a determination on each individual situation.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3628
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Posted - 2017.02.22 08:36:30 -
[10] - Quote
We have seen CCP banning people for some clearly invented bs reason to no reason at all not even answering mails of the banned person about why they where banned.
So never mind the EULA, if they want you gone they will just ban you.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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LouHodo
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
49
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Posted - 2017.02.22 22:53:35 -
[11] - Quote
In my opinion this rule NEEDS to change. CCP already has a clause stating they can terminate an account for what ever reason they feel like. It doesnt have to be a vague catch all rule for that. It is the same in EVERY MMO out there.
All this rule is, is for carebears who feel like they are getting picked on in game, in an open world PVP game.
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ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1635
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Posted - 2017.02.23 00:31:12 -
[12] - Quote
Quote: 11. Discussion of warnings and bans is prohibited.
Such matters shall remain private between CCP and the involved user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through email or private messaging. CCP respect the right of our players to privacy and as such you are not permitted to publicize private correspondence (including support ticket responses and emails) received from any member of CCP staff.
I have removed a post for the above reason.
ISD Max Trix
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji.
1997
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Posted - 2017.02.23 03:46:17 -
[13] - Quote
The EULA is a document to restrict player behavior. It does not dictate CCP behavior. They don't have to enforce every single little detail of the EULA all the time. Non enforcement today doesn't mean they can't enforce something tomorrow. The player, on the other hand, is bound by the EULA and any behavior that violates it can be enforced by CCP at any time now or in the future.
CCP is perfectly allowed to ban you today for that thing you did 10 years ago, for example. The fact that they chose to ignore it for the past 10 years doesn't mean they lose that right. You're the one being limited as the licensee. CCP is the one granting the license. They can do what they want - including doing nothing at all. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5715
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Posted - 2017.02.23 04:32:42 -
[14] - Quote
Ever notice that lawyer isn't a capsular profession in EVE? They all got spaced...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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mkint
1492
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Posted - 2017.02.23 06:38:08 -
[15] - Quote
cba'd to check the context, but considering it includes "website" I assume it means no hacking. Of course whatever twisted sicko who comes up with the world's EULAs makes them so they can mean whatever they want, whenever they want. And naturally that means CCP will do whatever they want, whenever they want, and has done up to the point where they've risked getting banned from certain countries. Oh, CCP, you corrupt bastards.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3633
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Posted - 2017.02.23 09:20:40 -
[16] - Quote
ISD Max Trix wrote:Quote: 11. Discussion of warnings and bans is prohibited.
Such matters shall remain private between CCP and the involved user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through email or private messaging. CCP respect the right of our players to privacy and as such you are not permitted to publicize private correspondence (including support ticket responses and emails) received from any member of CCP staff. I have removed a post for the above reason. Where did my post contain private correspondence? I did not even mention a specific case or person.
It seams strange to me that you see the need to censor a simple opinion about how CCP conducts banns.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
4
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Posted - 2017.02.23 09:41:14 -
[17] - Quote
That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p |
Yebo Lakatosh
Sewing Lightning
87
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Posted - 2017.02.23 09:49:49 -
[18] - Quote
Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p Don't you think someone must have noticed it in the past 14 years if it were the case?
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
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Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
5
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Posted - 2017.02.23 10:40:30 -
[19] - Quote
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p Don't you think someone must have noticed it in the past 14 years if it were the case?
Nope - ppl just ignore it, and CCP act like they accept this is normal behavior (ganking others); cause half of EVE population live just to gank others =] |
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1637
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Posted - 2017.02.23 13:03:30 -
[20] - Quote
Quote: 12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.
The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category
I have removed a post for the above reason. If you feel your post/tread/comment was moderated in error, Please file a support ticket.
ISD Max Trix
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
1965
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Posted - 2017.02.23 13:38:07 -
[21] - Quote
The paragraph is the MMO equivalent to a bouncer telling you: Other customers are complaining about you, please get out (and we won't let you back in). Your house, your rules... |
Yebo Lakatosh
Sewing Lightning
87
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:20:36 -
[22] - Quote
Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p (...) ppl just ignore it, and CCP act like they accept this is normal behavior (ganking others); cause half of EVE population live just to gank others =] Wait... do you mean the rule quoted in the OP? I was advised against space lawyering... but one has to try everything fun in EvE.
I don't think that rule applies to ganking. Let's examine the wording: "You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game (...)"
It doesn't mean that players may not interfere with the enjoyment or another player. That would be virtually and practically impossible. We don't even need to look at pvp to see that: even byuing a cheap item faster than someone, or mining everything efficiently in a system when someone else wants to do the same may cause a certain negative emotion in others - regardless of how faint and brief it is.
What this rule forbids is to maim one's ability to enjoy the game. I can't really think of modern examples of how this could happen - guess camping someone 24/7 would fit. Taking down any number or value of assets definately not. My proof for that is any player who you see on the server. One day any one of them had nothing more than a noobship, yet they enjoyed the game, so they got to where they are now. QED.
Please correct me if I had incorrect assumptions or other factors that could invalidate my analysis. I can be just as mistaken as the tens of thousands of players who failed to notice that half of them violates a rule for a decade.
By the way... if you take another look at the wording, you'll notice that it only applies to subscribers. Feel free to be as mean to us Alphas as necessary.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27744
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:45:52 -
[23] - Quote
Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p Whatever gave you that idea?
The rule being discussed doesn't forbid ganking, which is normal gameplay and doesn't break any rules.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5735
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:26:24 -
[24] - Quote
High-sec systems should be safe - no more criminal activity whatsoever. Relocate L4 missions (including Burners) along with CONCORD to low-sec. Watch as a mass-migration to low-sec ensues with wardec mechanics taking on a new light...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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LouHodo
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
51
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Posted - 2017.02.23 23:13:52 -
[25] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p Whatever gave you that idea? The rule being discussed doesn't forbid ganking, which is normal gameplay and doesn't break any rules.
Technically he is right.
Ganking IS against the rules. But so is..... -Undercutting on the markets. -Non-consensual PvP. -Gate Camping. -loot snatching (theft) -contract bidding wars -non consensual corp wars.
Or anything that interferes with another players enjoyment of the game. |
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
344
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Posted - 2017.02.23 23:19:36 -
[26] - Quote
LouHodo wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p Whatever gave you that idea? The rule being discussed doesn't forbid ganking, which is normal gameplay and doesn't break any rules. Technically he is right. Ganking IS against the rules. But so is..... -Undercutting on the markets. -Non-consensual PvP. -Gate Camping. -loot snatching (theft) -contract bidding wars -non consensual corp wars. Or anything that interferes with another players enjoyment of the game. Wrong. Those all happen within the game rules and therefore are not a violation of that section of the EULA. It would be incredibly foolish to make against the EULA ruining someone's day without violating some other provision of the EULA in a game that is basically designed to let you ruin someone's day.
I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
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Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
13
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Posted - 2017.02.23 23:28:36 -
[27] - Quote
Dark Lord Trump wrote:LouHodo wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p Whatever gave you that idea? The rule being discussed doesn't forbid ganking, which is normal gameplay and doesn't break any rules. Technically he is right. Ganking IS against the rules. But so is..... -Undercutting on the markets. -Non-consensual PvP. -Gate Camping. -loot snatching (theft) -contract bidding wars -non consensual corp wars. Or anything that interferes with another players enjoyment of the game. Wrong. Those all happen within the game rules and therefore are not a violation of that section of the EULA. It would be incredibly foolish to make against the EULA ruining someone's day without violating some other provision of the EULA in a game that is basically designed to let you ruin someone's day.
Yup, there is a difference, though, between ganking and griefing. If you make someone your special target, and keep on them, time after time, that's griefing. If they are stupid, and fly some expensive gank-bait and you take it, then fine, but if you hit them, over and over again, in the game, or in the forums, you're griefing. |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1134
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Posted - 2017.02.23 23:46:38 -
[28] - Quote
CCP can choose to interpret almost anything as a EULA violation. It takes a lot of study and trial/error to figure out what the rules actually are.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27758
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Posted - 2017.02.24 00:30:34 -
[29] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote:LouHodo wrote: Technically he is right.
Ganking IS against the rules. But so is..... -Undercutting on the markets. -Non-consensual PvP. -Gate Camping. -loot snatching (theft) -contract bidding wars -non consensual corp wars.
Or anything that interferes with another players enjoyment of the game.
Wrong. Those all happen within the game rules and therefore are not a violation of that section of the EULA. It would be incredibly foolish to make against the EULA ruining someone's day without violating some other provision of the EULA in a game that is basically designed to let you ruin someone's day. Yup, there is a difference, though, between ganking and griefing. If you make someone your special target, and keep on them, time after time, that's griefing. If they are stupid, and fly some expensive gank-bait and you take it, then fine, but if you hit them, over and over again, in the game, or in the forums, you're griefing. Agreed, persistently targeting someone in game may well be considered to be griefing by CCP, however they do take into account circumstance.
In game something along those lines is probably dealt with on a case by case basis, there's a rough definition of what CCP may consider to be griefing, as in harassment, in the opening post of the bumping sticky over in C&P.
Replace bumping with PvP activity of choice and it's probably a halfway decent guideline, or as Neuntausend so elequontly put it:
"Don't be a massive prick and if anyone with a colorful name tells you to stop doing something, then stop doing it."
On the forums I couldn't possibly comment what would be classified as harassment, strict as the rules may be the community team are incredibly tolerant. They must be, while I've never received a forum ban I'm pretty certain that I've been within a gnats danglies of one on more than one occasion.
When I drunk post, especially in ire, it can be incredibly offensive to the target, and incredibly entertaining for everyone else.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
233
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Posted - 2017.02.24 00:35:55 -
[30] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote:LouHodo wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:That is the point where i said about "ganking is against rules" but nobody believes me ;p Whatever gave you that idea? The rule being discussed doesn't forbid ganking, which is normal gameplay and doesn't break any rules. Technically he is right. Ganking IS against the rules. But so is..... -Undercutting on the markets. -Non-consensual PvP. -Gate Camping. -loot snatching (theft) -contract bidding wars -non consensual corp wars. Or anything that interferes with another players enjoyment of the game. Wrong. Those all happen within the game rules and therefore are not a violation of that section of the EULA. It would be incredibly foolish to make against the EULA ruining someone's day without violating some other provision of the EULA in a game that is basically designed to let you ruin someone's day. Yup, there is a difference, though, between ganking and griefing. If you make someone your special target, and keep on them, time after time, that's griefing. If they are stupid, and fly some expensive gank-bait and you take it, then fine, but if you hit them, over and over again, in the game, or in the forums, you're griefing.
Generally when that happens, its called a wardec. |
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