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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Larrikin
C C P C C P Alliance
654
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Posted - 2017.02.23 11:30:31 -
[1] - Quote
Hi m8s,
In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.
WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes.
Changes:
- Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script
- Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus
The new Focused Warp Scrambling Script will have the following ranges (with max skills):
- T1: 16km
- Meta: 18km
- T2: 20km
- Faction: 21km
The blueprint for the Focused Warp Scrambling Script will be available at all the same place & price as the Focused Warp Disruption Script blueprint is available.
Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
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CCP Larrikin
C C P C C P Alliance
654
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Posted - 2017.02.23 13:55:13 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved
Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
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lanyaie
Nocturnal Romance The Initiative.
1163
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Posted - 2017.02.23 13:57:40 -
[3] - Quote
Nice, although please leave HIC points to scram supers without the script. (Looking at you hels)
Quote:TinkerHell ?????? MY ******* FIEND
Spaceprincess
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Saeka Tyr
Sanctuary of Shadows Triumvirate.
44
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Posted - 2017.02.23 13:59:45 -
[4] - Quote
at least let us overheat for range |
Kalaratiri
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
865
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:01:08 -
[5] - Quote
Best change.
Thanks
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
119
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:03:33 -
[6] - Quote
Did the 5,000 m/sec kiting people cry too loud? |
Whippy Whip
Pan Intergalactic Industries
1
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:06:05 -
[7] - Quote
rip hics
i guess the ortherus was too vulnerable with them about |
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance The Initiative.
243
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:07:01 -
[8] - Quote
Good. RIP HICs. Long live Gallente Recons actually being able to do their job again.
(role bonus for scram range on fiend plzplzplzpzlpzlpzlzplzplzz) |
Jay Amazingness
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:07:04 -
[9] - Quote
Saeka Tyr wrote:at least let us overheat for range due to the longer cycle time this isn't such a bad idea.
CEO of serious space alliance I too am gay, a member of the Memeperium
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FistyMcBumBardier
TURN LEFT
128
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:09:54 -
[10] - Quote
Yay! Now I can fly something other than 100mn AB ships (if I were to ever find time to log in). |
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Michael Oskold
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
25
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:12:09 -
[11] - Quote
godbless
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Capqu
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1259
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:12:54 -
[12] - Quote
i'm on to you hamtaro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
213
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:14:05 -
[13] - Quote
https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif |
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CCP Larrikin
C C P C C P Alliance
657
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:17:10 -
[14] - Quote
Jay Amazingness wrote:Saeka Tyr wrote:at least let us overheat for range due to the longer cycle time this isn't such a bad idea.
Hrm, I kinda like that idea. Maybe :)
Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
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Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
79
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:18:12 -
[15] - Quote
Great change. At first glance, the numbers look reasonable for counterplay on both sides, also. |
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
79
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:22:44 -
[16] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Did the 5,000 m/sec kiting people cry too loud? Nope. We all just used 100mn and were able to ignore them completely. Which broke the game balance even more until it was fixed. Smart players will always find the most optimal solution. |
Jay Amazingness
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:24:40 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Jay Amazingness wrote:Saeka Tyr wrote:at least let us overheat for range due to the longer cycle time this isn't such a bad idea. Hrm, I kinda like that idea. Maybe :)
It kinda balances itself, you can overheat but not for long!!!
With a faction WDFG + heat you get roughly the same as a linked lachesis with a t2 scram
CEO of serious space alliance I too am gay, a member of the Memeperium
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Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74849
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:28:49 -
[18] - Quote
Good call. The new range seem to be in a good spot.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Mr Hyde113
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
350
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:30:55 -
[19] - Quote
My work here is done. *retires in peace*
Mr Hyde - CSM XI Permanent Attendee
Youtube Channel
Twitter
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Hans Downherpantz
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
70
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:32:48 -
[20] - Quote
brawling dies again |
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Helsir Qyrdun
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
0
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:34:35 -
[21] - Quote
As a confirmed HIC and 100mn abuser I can say I like this direction.
That said, few questions.
Will links continue to not effect range? What is the new cycle time? Will either of the scripted points keep caps from jumping gates? |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74849
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:37:47 -
[22] - Quote
Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again
People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Judy Mikakka
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
36
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:38:49 -
[23] - Quote
What an awful change, thanks for more awful changes
I can't wait for 6km/s garmus to just own my phobos now while i can't even point it anymore and can't escape it, fab change thanks!!! |
Anthar Thebess
1675
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:40:36 -
[24] - Quote
Scrams not affect afterburners ( propulsion module options ). HIC offered good possibility to fight kite meta - why are you taking this away? HIC scram range was very important for the fighting the MJD and MJFG meta - now like every thing is jumping.
I like current HIC for the ability to say - if you want to fight - fight not run.
This will be bad change.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Sacred Badger
HRTFU LowSechnaya Sholupen
0
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:41:47 -
[25] - Quote
so, in fleet fights hic is no more needed, because its useless, proteus could do more and logistics can heal it.. |
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
166
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:42:06 -
[26] - Quote
Those who say this only nerfs brawlers are delusional. Kiters tend to bring their own HICs to shut down anyone who gets near their ships so this also nerfs antibrawling kiter tactics :D 20km scram is still a lot further than an officer scram for a lot less of the price so it's still useful.
I like overheating -> More range.
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Bei ArtJay
Side Kicks The-Culture
149
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:42:21 -
[27] - Quote
Cool change! |
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
214
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:50:38 -
[28] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I like current HIC for the ability to say - if you want to die to my awful blob of F1 monkeys - die not fight.
Fixed |
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
80
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:52:29 -
[29] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. Increasingly relevant when the build cost of supers has decreased 4b in the last month (and will likely drop another 4b) - https://i.imgur.com/d2aupwN.png
Spot the date of the rorqual change - https://i.imgur.com/FfWruzm.png
Henry Plantgenet wrote:Those who say this only nerfs brawlers are delusional. Indeed, but not for the reason you suggest. If you kite you can position yourself properly on grid. Most people have no idea how to do this, and we'll pick off half of their fleet. Hics are slow and cannot keep up with most ships, they usually get left behind. Either that or we'll just overprop and ignore them completely.
Brawlers on the other hand? You had no hope of escaping a hic. They simply shut you down out of heavy neut range, out of web/grapple range, no ability to mjd and usually unable to apply damage to them effectively at that range. You would never catch them.
This change helps brawling quite a bit. HICs will now be in heavy neut and extreme grapple range while scramming you rather than completely out of danger. 10/10. |
Liafcipe9000
ShekelSquad Interhole Revenue Service
37463
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:54:12 -
[30] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Did the 5,000 m/sec kiting people cry too loud? I wouldn't be surprised if they did
CCP Larrikin wrote:Jay Amazingness wrote:Saeka Tyr wrote:at least let us overheat for range due to the longer cycle time this isn't such a bad idea. Hrm, I kinda like that idea. Maybe :) do it. there can be no maybe. |
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Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1574
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Posted - 2017.02.23 14:58:10 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote: WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options.
There are these things called afterburners that you can fit to your ship. They are not effected by scram effects.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74852
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:03:06 -
[32] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote: WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options.
There are these things called afterburners that you can fit to your ship. They are not effected by scram effects. There are these things called Keres/Arazu/Lachesis/Proteus. They are not affected by this nerf.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Captain Pierce
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:04:08 -
[33] - Quote
Give use a web script and have them both 20% range bonus with overheat then it will be great imo |
Lucian James
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
129
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:10:17 -
[34] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Scrams not affect afterburners ( propulsion module options ).
Maybe what really needs to be taken into the consideration is why people prefer MWD? Why AB is less desired. Maybe real fix is in increasing cap usage of the MWD so you cannot perma run it without any cap related fit modifications.
HIC offered good possibility to fight kite meta - why are you taking this away? HIC scram range was very important for the fighting the MJD and MJFG meta - now like every thing is jumping.
I like current HIC for the ability to say - if you want to fight - fight not run.
This will be bad change.
I agree 100%.
CCP can you go one day this week without being complete idiots? First the alliance name changes and now this garbage?
You're making it really easy to play other games besides Eve.
Please hire some developers that either play the game or stop making changes that some tiny minority in eve complains about; this constant slew of crap from you people is beyond irritating.
Your customer service and development is starting to take a 2008 swing; fix it.
Lucian James |
Longdrinks
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
253
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:10:49 -
[35] - Quote
good change, hics as they are now are way too strong and easy to use for noobs. |
Lucian James
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
129
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:11:32 -
[36] - Quote
I was just told:
This was, apparently, requested by Mr Hyde of CSM and Youtube fame
So you are making a game-wide huge nerf for one whiny caster and CSM rep?
How terrible are you people. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
810
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:12:46 -
[37] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote: WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options.
There are these things called afterburners that you can fit to your ship. They are not effected by scram effects.
Do you even know how terrible an AB is on a battleship that isnt a NM? It is not a counter like you think it is. Also, this makes MJD escape from a gatecamp possible again as a single HIC cant lockdown the entire area around a gate like it used to.
I fly mainly brawly BS, an AB does nothing. MJD is your savior, and 1 HIC that has 100k EHP that is outside heavy neut range was OP. Want to scram me? Commit, and dont be a pansy kiting (the very thing everyone is bitching about with this change) at 35km with an unnuetable, tanky and risk free way to farm kills.
That being said, i will miss abusing my kite fit, heavy beam devoter. RIP
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
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CCP Larrikin
C C P C C P Alliance
662
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:20:02 -
[38] - Quote
Helsir Qyrdun wrote:As a confirmed HIC and 100mn abuser I can say I like this direction.
That said, few questions.
Will links continue to not effect range? Correct, Command Bursts will not effect the range of scripted Warp Disrupt Field Generators
Helsir Qyrdun wrote:What is the new cycle time? The cycle time hasn't changed. The new scrambling script has the same cycle time as the disruption script.
Helsir Qyrdun wrote:Will either of the scripted points keep caps from jumping gates? Yes, both the scrambling script and disruption script will stop capitals from jumping gates.
Good questions! Added to the Q&A.
Bei ArtJay wrote:Cool change! Will encourage more skirmishing without 100mn again which is good, however I think the people who use them in fleet fights with supers have a point.
I think that given the number of sirens on grid in your average cap brawl now, and the fact you can now point supers/titans with ceptors and such, and now tackle rorquals, HIC's feel like they have lost a little too much of their specialty.
I think allowing them to receive reps all the time might not be such a bad idea these days?
This is an interesting point. It would be possible to give 50% impedance to remote reps or something like that too. But I don't think that really addresses your core point about specialty. This is something I'd like to look at again in the future.
Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
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Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
107
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:23:53 -
[39] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote: WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options.
There are these things called afterburners that you can fit to your ship. They are not effected by scram effects.
Thanks for that, was about to ask Larrikin if he doesn-¦t know about ABs but you beat me to it.
Soldarius wrote:[quote=CCP Larrikin] WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options.
Can you please give some arguments? You know, these things educated people use to make a point. Over the past year I have heard a lot of small gang/solo pilots complaining about HiC points but not a single one of them could actually give me some logical reasoning. They just felt it-¦s "too strong". So let-¦s elaborate shall we?
HiCs on gates were brought up a lot of times. Well, I died more to other gate camps than to HiC camps and I don-¦t see any reason to nerf HiC point because of "gatehate". I hate to die to gatecamps too but in 9/10 cases it-¦s not the HiCs fault if there even is one.
HiCs in space. Well, you are on some grid with a fleet supported by a HiC or several. So either you run or you have enough to think that it-¦s fine to fight. I don-¦t see any reason why someone could not avoid a HiC point in "open space".
HiCs in plexes. Mediums and large plexes are not really the place for "small gangs" except you define small with more than 10 pilots. Again, you can bring your own **** to kill whatever is inside. Or simply avoid them by going into small/novice plexes right?
HiCs in zero-zero. They are strong combined with bubble camps and I guess they harvested too many tears there but guess what? After the change the people who are camping their gates all the time will bring other **** to dismantle your kiting ship. I rather have a single HiC in a bubble camp than them re thinking how to kill me.
In general, HiC were or currently still are a nice tool in the box to counter MWDs and MJDs in zero-zero and low-sec. In low-sec they are the only relatively tanky option to shut down certain kiting compositions. Arazu is nice but at the end of the day it-¦s a bloody frigate that won-¦t survive against some heavier stuff. What else is there? Orthrus? Garmur or even a Barghest?
The HiC to me looked pretty ok. It is a cruiser hull that comes with a medium price tag and a good for some people steep fitting cost and it can be really tanky. It is not fast except you trade your tank for speed and then you-¦re better off using another hull in most scenarios. So yeh, it has a nasty long infinite scram but it can be avoided relatively easy except you ****** up before and got pinned down by something small and fast that allowed the HiC to get into position. So at the end of the day I don-¦t see any good reasoning to nerf the HiC point at all. But I am open to good arguments as always. Sadly, as said before, I have heard nothing but "complains" so far when it came to HiC points. And for the record, I hate them too. They are nasty, and make your life hard when you want to run from something but well, so it is. I hate cans in bubblecamps too when I come along with my nullified and cloaked tengu or when I want to get a DST though a bubblecamp and can-¦t mwd cloak into warp. There are a lot of things that will completely ruin your day when you fly solo or in a small gang but people should not cry all day but improve. |
InSTiiNK Loutte
Pain and pleasur Circle-Of-Two
2
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:23:57 -
[40] - Quote
After giving the ability to Rorqual to be SuperHictors, and you know retrograte HICs to be **** pointers.
I find the idea absolutely ridiculous.
In my honest opinion, you CCP, better keep proper gamerplay to proper ship types, and the last ship that needs a nerf is a HIC, and the first, is the Rorqual. So before Nerfing any other ships, nerf rorquals to give them back their natural gameplay, mining. At the same time, I find this very funny from a Pandemic Legion guy, upgrading Rorquals, and now they don't need HICs anymore, they downgrade them. :)
"My job here is done"
Best Regards, InSTiiNK Loutte |
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Dodo Veetee
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
32
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:24:18 -
[41] - Quote
Thanks for nerfing the counter to kitey fleets.
Maybe you guys can now balance the ******* orthrus and garmur? |
Tappits
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
222
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:24:27 -
[42] - Quote
Still sad this does not stop people jumping gates like to does to caps. |
Ragnar Nabali
Stahl Arms
1
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:24:56 -
[43] - Quote
So now they will have almost the same range as Lachesis, while they won't be able to receive reps while scraming. They won't be used in small gangs because orthrus will do it better with 20km overheated scram and 60km point range while moving 2,5km/s. The only reason why someone would use them after that nerf is to prevent caps from taking the gates. Then why not removing them from the game at all? After the change, there will be other ships that can do the job done better then HICs. |
Galendil
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
38
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:25:03 -
[44] - Quote
No one I know is asking for this. Why?
Cancer Garmurs and Orthrus already own the spacelanes
--- | --- Flammis Acribus Addictis --- | ---
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Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
214
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:25:30 -
[45] - Quote
I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing. |
Achilles Mikakka
Inferno Technologies Circle-Of-Two
3
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:29:08 -
[46] - Quote
why are these changes coming ? and for what ? i see no reason to nerf hics
CCPls no |
Scath Bererund
SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore
37
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:31:05 -
[47] - Quote
Achilles Mikakka wrote:why are these changes coming ? and for what ? i see no reason to nerf hics
CCPls no
CCP is pandering to a few youtubers.
Im sure the devs have never played this game and just watch mr hyde vids |
Ruby Gnollo
15
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:32:39 -
[48] - Quote
This thread will prolly be very usefull as a list of pilots to avoid at any cost in space. Thanks CCP for this. |
MINESVSGANG
Titans of Doom Circle-Of-Two
0
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:33:50 -
[49] - Quote
HIC are getting nerf to counter kite fleets. Argh |
Jankos Sabannfuhrer
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:35:01 -
[50] - Quote
This change is racist |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1277
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:35:10 -
[51] - Quote
<3
pls make onyx bonuses not rapid lights, and remove devoter dronebay |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
769
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:43:38 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi m8s, In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback. WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORSThe current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes. Changes: - Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script
- Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus
The new Focused Warp Scrambling Script will have the following ranges (with max skills): - T1: 16km
- Meta: 18km
- T2: 20km
- Faction: 21km
The blueprint for the Focused Warp Scrambling Script will be available at all the same place & price as the Focused Warp Disruption Script blueprint is available. Good. One year ago when the HIC was buff was proposed I said to make it 20km otherwise it would be game breaking; a year on your nerfing the range to 20km. Better late than never though I guess.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Lucian James
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
133
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:43:52 -
[53] - Quote
Lucian James wrote:I was just told:
This was, apparently, requested by Mr Hyde of CSM and Youtube fame
So you are making a game-wide huge nerf for one whiny caster and CSM rep?
How terrible are you people.
This is the same My Hyde that uses his CSM meeting time to talk **** on alliances and other people.
He's quitting Eve in 6 months anyway... why should we bother listening to someone like this?
I would really like CCP Larrkin to explain that. |
Tung Yoggi
Null Sect
146
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:44:09 -
[54] - Quote
40k scram on a HIC was the epitome of balancing i don't see why you would change that ? Now each time i see a kiter in intel channel i have to dock up and smacktalk, and eventually get reported for innapropriate language.
Thanks CCP ! |
Noir Ruda
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
15
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:46:25 -
[55] - Quote
Seems like any Proteus will be better now for Pointing stuff what is not a Capital.
I would like to extend the rule for the not jump/dock if you are at it.
I suggest a highslot module that changes the effect in the regard like;
Modul Anti Capital: Captials can't jump or dock when hic pointed Modul Anti Battleship: Battleship can't jump or dock when hic pointed Modul Anti BattleCruiser: BattleCruiser can't jump or dock when hic pointed Modul Anti Cruiser: Cruiser can't jump or dock when hic pointed Modul Anti Destroyer: Destroyer can't jump or dock when hic pointed Modul Anti Frigs: Frigs can't jump or dock when hic pointed
Only one module allowed on a ship.
This will give people a oppertunity to force a fight on a gate or Station.
Leave the industrial line out or you will see a lot of JF dying in lowsec :)
The Idea might need some good tweaks like reducing range or lock time for a certain type especially I can see Campers try to abuse this to hell but with this more things will explode what ccp always wants.
Either this or give them at least a reduced amount of repair like 70% percent instead of 100%, because as already stated this makes HIC in normal Fleets just a bad tanked Proteus that can't be repped. |
Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
123
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:48:35 -
[56] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps.
People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob. |
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:49:09 -
[57] - Quote
Dodo Veetee wrote:Thanks for nerfing the counter to kitey fleets.
Maybe you guys can now balance the ******* orthrus and garmur?
Stop being a whiney ***** and fly a lachesis. |
Lucian James
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
133
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:49:30 -
[58] - Quote
To quote an alliance member:
[9:48 AM] [IFTC] Achilles_Mikakka: im paying for my eve time so ccp better hears on the playerbase not some random f** |
McDur
Serious About Space Things. Circle-Of-Two
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:53:53 -
[59] - Quote
Tomoko Sunji wrote:Dodo Veetee wrote:Thanks for nerfing the counter to kitey fleets.
Maybe you guys can now balance the ******* orthrus and garmur? Stop being a whiney ***** and fly a lachesis.
Thanks for making the point, there is no reason to fly a HIC anymore when you can fly a lachesis and receive reps |
Hogeron Amelan
Marquie-X. Triumvirate.
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:54:02 -
[60] - Quote
This is the dumbest idea i have seen from CCP for game balanicng since FozzieSov!
After the focused point got the scram ability HICs were finally useful in the game. To nerv them again and make hics virtually useless just because some highsec entitys use them for cheesy mechanics, you could just disallow the Hic Warp Disruptor module in highsec, like bomb launchers, etc. instead of changing that whole module. Why dont u just remove highsec totally from the game oO |
|
l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1293
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:54:24 -
[61] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:
HiCs in space. Well, you are on some grid with a fleet supported by a HiC or several. So either you run or you have enough to think that it-¦s fine to fight. I don-¦t see any reason why someone could not avoid a HiC point in "open space".
The same old argument was used to defend Skynet, skynet 2.0 and offgrid booster. "You don't have to fight! Just run"
Yes, you can. But if a ship is so strong, that you just need to bring one of them to scare the enemy away then maybe it's not optimal in a pvp game ;-)
Trajan Unknown wrote:
here are a lot of things that will completely ruin your day when you fly solo or in a small gang but people should not cry all day but improve.
And running as you suggested will help me improve? :P No, we adapted. But we have been flying 100mn cruisers for over 2 years now. Partly because of hics, partly because of Fighter buff. And I'm sick of it. It's just boring. It's always nice if the meta gets shaking up and you have to adapt all over again :)
Remember that this is a game. I hope this helps you to understand my point of view.
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1293
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Posted - 2017.02.23 15:56:26 -
[62] - Quote
Galendil wrote:No one I know is asking for this. Why?
Cancer Garmurs and Orthrus already own the spacelanes
Keeping a class dominant over a whole play style just because two ships are out of place is not a good solution.
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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Messoroz
aquila inc Verge of Collapse
510
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:56:54 -
[63] - Quote
All I see here is tears about people crying they can no longer counter kiting with an I win button.
Are people so bad they can't use an Lachesis or Arazu in a gang effectively to counter nano gangs?
I've played this game since 2009. I've been in countless nanogangs. Effective use of an Arazu or Lachesis was always possible agaisnt nano gangs. In fact nano vs nano gang with both sides having one of the two ships always made perhaps the most amazing fights in this game with the amount of strategy and planning immense to be able not to die instantly and pick off the enemy. |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
124
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:56:54 -
[64] - Quote
Hi
As a frequent abuser of a kiting devoter, I find this change very welcome. Well, not sure of the proposion, but the fact that I could fly a 400m isk cruiser with 37pointsomething km scram while doing 400ish dps to that very same range and above, while having deacent tank and good mobility was totally overpowered. That's from a abusive point of view.
As a kiter, I also feel the 37pointsomething km scram was totally overpowered to the defenders of kiting. It has become the standard "togo" ship of any homedefencefleet. Thus we, the kiters have had to come up with other **** to counter that.
The fact is, that we "the evil kiters" are going to come up with ways to keep kiting. You can create a rorqual with 200km infinitipointscram90%web bubble and we will find a way to counter that. That however lessens the options by a ton. The homedefencefleets still can have their 40ish km scram with a faction scram linked lach/arazu. A ship that can even get reps while scramming.
However, I would like to see hics to get a niche. As we now have any warp disruptor able to point titans and supers and as we have interdictors who drops bubbles and command dessies who can teleport the said bubbles where-ever, I feel the hic should have a role to fullfill. While it still remains a good tackler to a supercapital in lowsek, in 0.0 a dictor performs way better in most cases due to it's mobility and due to hictors inability to receive reps while bubbling/pointing. Maybe some racial ewar bubbles? Broadsword doing web bubbles, where a phobos is doing what hics do now, where a onyx is having an ecm bubble and a devoter a neutbubble. And they should be able to receive reps atleast on some level. |
Alice Fury
Nox Explorator
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:02:12 -
[65] - Quote
RIP HIC's. Other ships do their only job better now. This sucks, I put a lot of time in to getting HIC V and T2 Bubbles just for the Scram range.
CCP what would be the reason to undock a HIC now? Anti-Booshing? Better hope you can get on that CD with your short range before they get their boosh off. Is that what HIC's are relegated to now, countering a destroyer?
Bummer |
Lucian James
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
135
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:02:24 -
[66] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:Hi
As a kiter, I also feel the 37pointsomething km scram was totally overpowered to the defenders of kiting. It has become the standard "togo" ship of any homedefencefleet. Thus we, the kiters have had to come up with other **** to counter that.
I've played this game 9 years in big alliances and not once have i see a home defense fleet go out with a HIC in it.
Plus how are one or two hics going to help out a defense fleet against kyters? By trapping one or two of a WHOLE fleet of kyters?
And what idiot kyters are kyting under 35-40km anyway? Outside of neut/hic/bonused-web range is WHERE YOU KYTE.
What are you smoking? Can you pass it this way?
I thought this game was for smart people. |
Whippy Whip
Pan Intergalactic Industries
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:02:30 -
[67] - Quote
who needs hics when you have an invulnerable version in the rorq
#ccpbalancing |
Atlan Dallocort
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
75
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:03:59 -
[68] - Quote
The nerf is a bit too much in my opinion. The combination of scram effect and 40k infinite point was the problem, not the 40k range. Hics aren't that fast. A small scale gang can just burn out of range if the effect is only like a warp disruptor (they are already able to deal with Lachs huh?). But tackling caps is getting harder. And thats not necessary because the capability of caps to clear tackle became already a lot better (HAW guns, fighter/fibo application).
|
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:04:40 -
[69] - Quote
Alice Fury wrote:RIP HIC's. Other ships do their only job better now. This sucks, I put a lot of time in to getting HIC V and T2 Bubbles just for the Scram range.
CCP what would be the reason to undock a HIC now? Anti-Booshing? Better hope you can get on that CD with your short range before they get their boosh off. Is that what HIC's are relegated to now, countering a destroyer?
Bummer
Mobile bubble with 25km radius that can scramble at 20km, is it that hard to figure out ? |
Scath Bererund
SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:05:31 -
[70] - Quote
As always its **** the players who come up with a counter to one of thier pet project ships.
Nothing that counters the mordus legion can possably be balenced! |
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ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
145
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:09:04 -
[71] - Quote
If the intention is to reduce the range - which is the case, heat for more range doesn't make any sense. |
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
95
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:10:11 -
[72] - Quote
omg why? HICs r pretty expensive and only chance how to point these annoying kite plague around and it is nerfed :-(
sry for my English :-(
|
Demolishar
United Aggression Corpse Collectors Group
1231
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:10:35 -
[73] - Quote
Give it a heat bonus to tackle range then pls... |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74858
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:11:41 -
[74] - Quote
I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships.
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.
It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Ransu Asanari
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
515
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:11:57 -
[75] - Quote
Glad to see this change. This was discussed during the original HIC rebalance, so I'm glad to see it revisited. |
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
407
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:12:13 -
[76] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing. On the other side are the "experts" who think HICs cannot be countered. Because jams are kind of a religious taboo for them. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
811
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:12:40 -
[77] - Quote
Scath Bererund wrote:As always its **** the players who come up with a counter to one of thier pet project ships.
Nothing that counters the mordus legion can possably be balenced!
Its funny, cause its not mordus that got countered hard, but brawly BS and BC as a HIC renders MJD mobility useless. You can cry about MJD being a cheap way to escape, but i counter that your gang was just too cowardly to commit and scram me, and instead relied on kiting (the very thing people like you are bitching and moaning about) with a 100k EHP, double bubble, 37km scram HIC.
Its funny, but sad that you think this is only about mordus being oppressed.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
|
Atlas Aurilia
Stain Security Forces X13 Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:16:09 -
[78] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:
Yes, you can. But if a ship is so strong, that you just need to bring one of them to scare the enemy away then maybe it's not optimal in a pvp game ;-)
So titans are not optimal in the game? |
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:17:46 -
[79] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing. On the other side are the "experts" who think HICs cannot be countered. Because jams are kind of a religious taboo for them. I love these responses because they apply to no one. Lucy does the same thing we do. Damp it, or use a prop mod unaffected by scrams. The only effect it has on us is to make us fly more oppressive ships to kill you with.
A little help for your future attempts at making a coherent argument on the subject - damps are much more effective than jams ;) |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74861
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:17:47 -
[80] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing. On the other side are the "experts" who think HICs cannot be countered. Because jams are kind of a religious taboo for them.
HICs have already been countered with 100mn ships and damps. It just gets boring after a while.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
|
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l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1300
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:20:30 -
[81] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:Give it a heat bonus to tackle range then pls...
So, that will not change anything then?
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1300
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:22:39 -
[82] - Quote
Atlas Aurilia wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:
Yes, you can. But if a ship is so strong, that you just need to bring one of them to scare the enemy away then maybe it's not optimal in a pvp game ;-)
So titans are not optimal in the game?
I don't know, I have no experience with those. What play style or class do they oppress?
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
|
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
409
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:26:31 -
[83] - Quote
Fifth Blade wrote:Skia Aumer wrote:Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing. On the other side are the "experts" who think HICs cannot be countered. Because jams are kind of a religious taboo for them. I love these responses because they apply to no one. Lucy does the same thing we do... Lucy is an ignorant ****, that's all I wanted to say. Both sides have their right to express their opinion. Respect your opponents and dont through insults without putting an argument in it. |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
111
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:32:54 -
[84] - Quote
InSTiiNK Loutte wrote:After giving the ability to Rorqual to be SuperHictors, and you know retrograte HICs to be **** pointers.
I find the idea absolutely ridiculous.
In my honest opinion, you CCP, better keep proper gamerplay to proper ship types, and the last ship that needs a nerf is a HIC, and the first, is the Rorqual. So before Nerfing any other ships, nerf rorquals to give them back their natural gameplay, mining. At the same time, I find this very funny from a Pandemic Legion guy, upgrading Rorquals, and now they don't need HICs anymore, they downgrade them. :)
"My job here is done"
Best Regards, InSTiiNK Loutte
Well, Hyde has actually nothing to do with PL outside of being in there. And he is in there because his friends joined PL. He flys solo all the time and mostly Battleships so of course he wants HiCs to get nerfed. They **** with his MJD and since he is slow as **** too he can-¦t run away just MJD away except there-¦s a HiC. Pretty certain he has nothing to do with Rorquals at all. He is like Suitonia pretty much who joined PL for god knows what reason but just kept doing what he did before. Now he is in Goons or was last time. But from what I can tell he-¦s just doing his own **** and has nothing to do with Goons. Same with Hyde so when Hyde is pushing for something it-¦s from a solo player view, not from a PL view. |
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
757
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:35:15 -
[85] - Quote
I think 40% of current HIC scram range would be more reasonable; 15km T2 / 15.75km Faction.
But this is much better than the current cancer so thanks.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Pterry Dactyl Kasterborous
Concordiat Pandemic Horde
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:42:25 -
[86] - Quote
yeah, nerf HICs into the ground while the rorqual remains a better HIC than actual HICs
ggwp CCP |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
111
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:43:51 -
[87] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:I think 40% of current HIC scram range would be more reasonable; 15km T2 / 15.75km Faction.
But this is much better than the current cancer so thanks.
Do you have any arguments outside of being touched somewhere by a HiC?
l0rd carlos wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:
HiCs in space. Well, you are on some grid with a fleet supported by a HiC or several. So either you run or you have enough to think that it-¦s fine to fight. I don-¦t see any reason why someone could not avoid a HiC point in "open space".
The same old argument was used to defend Skynet, skynet 2.0 and offgrid booster. "You don't have to fight! Just run"Yes, you can. But if a ship is so strong, that you just need to bring one of them to scare the enemy away then maybe it's not optimal in a pvp game ;-) Trajan Unknown wrote:
here are a lot of things that will completely ruin your day when you fly solo or in a small gang but people should not cry all day but improve.
And running as you suggested will help me improve? :P No, we adapted. But we have been flying 100mn cruisers for over 2 years now. Partly because of hics, partly because of Fighter buff. And I'm sick of it. It's just boring. It's always nice if the meta gets shaking up and you have to adapt all over again :) Remember that this is a game. I hope this helps you to understand my point of view.
Skynet was a complete different thing and it had to be nerfed no question.
HiCs? They are ******* limited in what they can do and when I said "run" I meant you don-¦t have to commit at all. A HiC has no real power projection over a a grid, let alone system. Fighters were pretty much a "shut the whole system down" thingy. Outside of plexes that means. If you want to commit to a fight with a HiC do it else simply don-¦t. So please, where is your argument? At least give me a weak one. The "meta needs changing" is no balance argument at all it barely is one for gameplay. Posts before me mentioned some "hard counters" to HiCs already so there is something. Running 100mn cruisers because of HiCs sound weird to be honest. Running 100mn cruisers for several reasons sounds legit. They are a pain in the ass to pin down except you have "web superiority" and can apply them in time. Else you can ******* run MWDs and commit. After all it-¦s no different from getting caught in close range cruisers by a nano-gang with ceptor support. Can-¦t touch the ceptors really, can-¦t run either. Only thing you can do is die without losing your **** and that-¦s fine.
|
l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1307
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:49:04 -
[88] - Quote
Pterry Dactyl Kasterborous wrote:yeah, nerf HICs into the ground while the rorqual remains a better HIC than actual HICs
ggwp CCP Again, just because a single ships is out of whack, we should not stop balancing other classes or modules.
We can do both :)
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1812
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:49:14 -
[89] - Quote
Less HIC cancer is good.
I'd like to see some more interesting gameplay vs just letting it cycle on a target though.
Maybe give the scram script a longer range than what you're proposing, say 40km, with a combined grapple effect, then give it a 10 second activation and slap a 30 - 40 second reactivation on it.
That way it's powerful for snatching targets, and allowing other ships to get on top of them to land hard tackle, but really lacking when it comes to holding a ship down entirely by itself.
Non-scripted HIC beams would continue to have infi-points. |
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:54:27 -
[90] - Quote
Pterry Dactyl Kasterborous wrote:yeah, nerf HICs into the ground while the rorqual remains a better HIC than actual HICs
ggwp CCP
HIC still have 40km point range, Learn to read a patchnote. |
|
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
757
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:55:57 -
[91] - Quote
Alice Fury wrote:RIP HIC's. Other ships do their only job better now. This sucks, I put a lot of time in to getting HIC V and T2 Bubbles just for the Scram range.
CCP what would be the reason to undock a HIC now? Anti-Booshing? Better hope you can get on that CD with your short range before they get their boosh off. Is that what HIC's are relegated to now, countering a destroyer?
Bummer
Please, you don't need 39.4km scram to shut down a CD lets be real. Most people who aren't bad at the game are going to have CDs at pings and fleet warp them onto targets, or use solo expanded probe fit if you want to boosh properly, or warp down to wrecks etc. As well as doing spearfishing from 100km+ with multiple CDs, HICs don't help protect against that at all.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Timm3h
Oruze Cruise White Stag Exit Bag
101
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:57:48 -
[92] - Quote
*tips orthrus* M' gameplay |
Capqu
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1259
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:58:27 -
[93] - Quote
u talk about oppressive meta and yet the orthrus isnt mentioned
hmmMMM
thinking emoji
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
|
Mareck001
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club Circle-Of-Two
80
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 16:59:45 -
[94] - Quote
I'm getting tired of these special snowflakes screwing up the game and nerfing what works fine. Tou want to make some changes to the balance of the game to improve gameplay? Look at the Rorqual and Garmor. You're pandering to some solo streamer and his buddies who don't know squat about how small gang combat goes down in the REAL 95% of us that play the game on a daily basis. |
Capqu
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1259
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:00:19 -
[95] - Quote
Capqu wrote:u talk about oppressive meta and yet the orthrus isnt mentioned
hmmMMM
thinking emoji
also you essentially just buffed the orthrus btw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
|
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
758
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:01:09 -
[96] - Quote
Timm3h wrote:*tips orthrus* M' gameplay
Unironically HIC scrams just made Orthrus' much more prolific, because it's one of the few kiting ships that can project outside HIC Scram range while also tackling ships outside HIC scram range. What HICs killed was solo brawling with MJDs entirely, cheap, affordable or accessible kiting ships (RIP anyone trying to just take out a nano thorax, cane or stabber etc.).
Flying 100mn stuff + needing a Keres to even undock if you want to do non Orthrus stuff is getting boring.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Capqu
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1259
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:02:08 -
[97] - Quote
Capqu wrote:Capqu wrote:u talk about oppressive meta and yet the orthrus isnt mentioned
hmmMMM
thinking emoji also you essentially just buffed the orthrus btw
and it didnt need a buff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
|
l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1308
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:04:11 -
[98] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Skynet was a complete different thing and it had to be nerfed no question.
HiCs? They are ******* limited in what they can do and when I said "run" I meant you don-¦t have to commit at all. A HiC has no real power projection over a a grid, let alone system. Fighters were pretty much a "shut the whole system down" thingy. Outside of plexes that means. If you want to commit to a fight with a HiC do it else simply don-¦t. So please, where is your argument? At least give me a weak one. The "meta needs changing" is no balance argument at all it barely is one for gameplay. Posts before me mentioned some "hard counters" to HiCs already so there is something. Running 100mn cruisers because of HiCs sound weird to be honest. Running 100mn cruisers for several reasons sounds legit. They are a pain in the ass to pin down except you have "web superiority" and can apply them in time. Else you can fuc*k*ng run MWDs and commit. After all it-¦s no different from getting caught in close range cruisers by a nano-gang with ceptor support. Can-¦t touch the ceptors really, can-¦t run either. Only thing you can do is die without losing your s*hi*t and that-¦s fine.
Yes, I know skynet was different, I just said the arguments from the abusers where the same.
My argument is that HiCs are so strong they alone can be in power to shift the meta. They make the gameplay partly stale.
What is the argument for keeping the long range scram?
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
|
Romvex
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
572
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:06:19 -
[99] - Quote
There are some fantastically stupid posts here. Do you realize a Lachesis/Arazu or a Huginn/Rapier will do the exact same thing as a hic when countering kiters? Long webs do the job even better. Try actually doing something other than ratting in Esoteria and pressing F1 every now and then before crying that others won't stoop to your level of play by simply dying to a blob of clueless pubbies. |
Michael Oskold
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
27
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:06:27 -
[100] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Timm3h wrote:*tips orthrus* M' gameplay Unironically HIC scrams just made Orthrus' much more prolific, because it's one of the few kiting ships that can project outside HIC Scram range while also tackling ships outside HIC scram range. What HICs killed was solo brawling with MJDs entirely, cheap, affordable or accessible kiting ships (RIP anyone trying to just take out a nano thorax, cane or stabber etc.). Flying 100mn stuff + needing a Keres to even undock if you want to do non Orthrus stuff is getting boring.
pretty much this. 36k scrams made plenty of things auto trash worthy. On ships that boast huge tanks and almost always run sebos to counter ecm, it was very frustrating to deal with. There was no counter gameplay, it was just "ggwp" |
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Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Spaceship Samurai
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:07:28 -
[101] - Quote
Before the wall of text I'd like to ask for clarification: The -20% range is relative to the bubble size, right? The numbers given seem to be 50% lower than the current focused range, not 20%.
I'm definitely not very enthusiastic about this change. The only time I've seen HICs used in fleets is when there's a chance of catching supercapitals or when the scram range is absolutely necessary. The inability to receive remote reps while doing their job makes HICs very hard to manage in a fleet setting, to the point I see them getting completely replaced by Proteus, Lachesis, or in some cases Orthrus/Barghest.
In a gate camp setting they can be a little oppressive but the inability to receive reps is again a major disadvantage against anything that can fight back. I'll be the first to admit I have camped gates with a Devoter and remote sensor boosters. It's effective and the Devoter can solo many T1 cruisers and below, but this change is not going to fix that. Gate campers will always figure out a setup to point and scram victims as quickly and inescapably as possible, and it being a ship that can receive reps will likely make things even worse. Even before the change I would've used a Proteus instead of a Devoter if I could fly one, just because it's a lot less likely to die, and the extra scan resolution would be a welcome improvement.
So what would HICs actually be used for with only half the scram range? The only uses I can think of are permanently keeping a bubble up for camping in null or a wormhole, in which case an anchorable bubble is probably better, or tackling supercapitals, in which case Rorquals or a Proteus + Guardian fleet would be better.
I see the proposed change as the death of HICs unless they also gain the ability to receive remote assistance like all the other options can. |
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
411
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:09:28 -
[102] - Quote
In all honesty, I dont think it will change small-scale PVP much. "Carebears" will only undock and fight when they are sure they can win. Take away HIC, and you take away some of their confidence. Which they either compensate with a couple of carriers, or the whole thing boils down to smack talk. In the end of the day, both sides will still be unsatisfied with the "cancerous" meta, as it has been since forever.
I'm more interested in consequences for fleet fights, which are not so obvious. As HICs will be deemed useless, we can see command destroyers finally shine as they were supposed to. Or maybe not. Also, further nerfs to once a cornerstone of capital fights, and a link between subcaps and caps, the HIC, will help to shift the meta to caps-only. Carrier is a new battleship, as the word goes, and this change only reinforces that. It will be even trickier for CCP to find a place for actual battleships. Or probably they have some trump up the sleeve, who knows. Some Networked Cluster Barrel which makes their signature as small as a frigate.
So what really bothers me is that they are trying to solve minor or non-existing problems, while keeping sheer swathes of gameplay in a fairly poor state. |
Adolf Mekansm
Tardigrade
21
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:16:58 -
[103] - Quote
So now a HIC is absolutly useless as it was before, and it has worst range than a gallente recon for a way more expensive hull...
Why ?
HIC became used, and just used, not overused. It was great ! It makes some pilot didn't able to adapt whine, but it was far away from being overused.
No one use them to takle super nowardays anyway. Without a great scram range these rip have no purpose to exist. Even worst than an Orthrus... |
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:19:32 -
[104] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:Before the wall of text I'd like to ask for clarification: The -20% range is relative to the bubble size, right? The numbers given seem to be 50% lower than the current focused range, not 20%.
HICs will still point at the same range but will scramble at 20km max.
Kagi Anzomi wrote: to the point I see them getting completely replaced by Proteus, Lachesis, or in some cases Orthrus/Barghest..
That's because HICs should have never ever been able to remplace those ships.
Kagi Anzomi wrote: So what would HICs actually be used for with only half the scram range?
Bubble fleets, tackle caps / supercaps, prevent caps from jumping though gates, scramble at 20km subcaps.
Kinda like... what it always was supposed to do ? |
Fleshgrind
The Graduates The Initiative.
6
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:20:34 -
[105] - Quote
I see no reason for this change. Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion. |
Jack Barros
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:26:46 -
[106] - Quote
Another ship class relegated to the trash heap. Cool.
Of all the balance changes that could possibly be made, THIS was the one you decided to go with? |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
114
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:27:01 -
[107] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:
Skynet was a complete different thing and it had to be nerfed no question.
HiCs? They are ******* limited in what they can do and when I said "run" I meant you don-¦t have to commit at all. A HiC has no real power projection over a a grid, let alone system. Fighters were pretty much a "shut the whole system down" thingy. Outside of plexes that means. If you want to commit to a fight with a HiC do it else simply don-¦t. So please, where is your argument? At least give me a weak one. The "meta needs changing" is no balance argument at all it barely is one for gameplay. Posts before me mentioned some "hard counters" to HiCs already so there is something. Running 100mn cruisers because of HiCs sound weird to be honest. Running 100mn cruisers for several reasons sounds legit. They are a pain in the ass to pin down except you have "web superiority" and can apply them in time. Else you can fuc*k*ng run MWDs and commit. After all it-¦s no different from getting caught in close range cruisers by a nano-gang with ceptor support. Can-¦t touch the ceptors really, can-¦t run either. Only thing you can do is die without losing your s*hi*t and that-¦s fine.
Yes, I know skynet was different, I just said the arguments from the abusers where the same. My argument is that HiCs are so strong they alone can be in power to shift the meta. They make the gameplay partly stale. What is the argument for keeping the long range scram?
I stated several points before but ok, let-¦s make a short list.
- HICs are an essential tool in close to midrange fleet compositions when fighting longer ranged compositions.
- HICs are an essential tool to shut down certain ships/compositions which are able to project pretty well against the common tackler like rapid lights, tracking bonused cruisers and alike.
- HICs allow small fleets to shut down a certain part of the grid against stuff that would kite them all the time. Still possible of course and by no means a hard counter.
- HICs by themself can be countered super easily, they need force multiplier to become really nasty.
- The only thing that HICs shut down pretty much entirely are solo battleship pilots and people who like to fly MWDs on nano ships and run into a gatecamp. Besides that, I don-¦t see anything that speaks for a HIC nerf and tbh, solo should never ever be a reason to buff/nerf something. It-¦s nice to fly solo and I personally enjoy it too from time to time but it is no basis for balance at all.
As said before, I hate it too when I run into certain compositions when I fly solo or with a couple friends but that-¦s ******* EvE. Bubblecamps, frigate blobs with ecm, rapid light missile compositions you name it. There are a lot of things that really grind my gears but do I want to see such things nerfed? No, absolutely not! Not too long ago I was thinking about the whole fleet meta. I dislike the fact that everyone is "anchoring up" and apply dps with a logi wing attached. But it is the most efficient way and people got used to it. Everything else you might wanna try needs a ton more effort, more piloting skills and has more options to screw up. Therefore people don-¦t do it and I dislike that. But do I want to force people giving up on this fleet meta? Hell no, just because I don-¦t like it, doesn-¦t mean it should be enforced. Same for HiCs and all the other things people complain about. Yes, sometimes maybe even the majority of times you fly solo or in a small gang and you get cooked by some blob, camp or whatever and it is not nice to say the least but that-¦s the game and your choice. You can blob with your friends, take on someone who is not as good as you and enjoy killing him in a solo ship or you can keep complaining about things and ask for nerfs because you want to enforce your gameplay. The latter is just a bad approach on things. To finish things up, people remember the svipul camps in low-sec? Just a ******* svipul on the gate or maybe two of them. They will pretty much instant lock anything that comes through and blap it and you can-¦t do **** against it except you know beforehand that they are there. It-¦s super nasyt, it-¦s hated by a lot of players, including myself. But it-¦s part of the game and it-¦s fine to have such things in EvE.
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l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1309
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:28:22 -
[108] - Quote
Fleshgrind wrote:Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion.
Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-)
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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Jack Barros
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:29:50 -
[109] - Quote
Also:
CCP Larrikin wrote: WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options.
lmao. HICs everywhere! Every small gang has one!
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Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
762
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:31:24 -
[110] - Quote
Adolf Mekansm wrote:So now a HIC is absolutly useless as it was before, and it has worst range than a gallente recon for a way more expensive hull...
Why ?
HIC became used, and just used, not overused. It was great ! It makes some pilot didn't able to adapt whine, but it was far away from being overused.
No one use them to takle super nowardays anyway. Without a great scram range these rip have no purpose to exist. Even worst than an Orthrus...
Actually it still scrams at the same range as an Orthrus does. Just the Orthrus can get links to scram further than it. HICs shouldn't replace ships like the Lachesis, Arazu, Keres for scramming. which they did. For the record, I think CCP should remove the scram bonus from the Orthrus and leave just the Disruptor bonus (opposite to Maulus Navy)
HICs are still incredibly tanky, get additional scramblers at no cost to tank by fitting high slots, have a bubble, incredible EHP for their size, can infi-point to 39.4km and stop capitals from jumping or taking gates. I think they'll still have a solid place in eve, they just won't be a 1 ship counter to all that they are right now for defense gangs.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Jack Barros
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:31:54 -
[111] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Fleshgrind wrote:Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion. Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-)
TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.
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l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1310
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:38:31 -
[112] - Quote
Jack Barros wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:Fleshgrind wrote:Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion. Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-) TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.
On my MWD, I thought that was clear?
Make mwds great again. Now we just need a medium AC adjustment.
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74875
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:38:54 -
[113] - Quote
Jack Barros wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:Fleshgrind wrote:Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion. Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-) TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.
*Points at the 100mn AB*
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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rhiload Feron-drake
TURN LEFT
116
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:41:01 -
[114] - Quote
Yes. |
MerlinWR
CBC Interstellar Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:42:05 -
[115] - Quote
Quote:Changes: Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus
The new Focused Warp Scrambling Script will have the following ranges (with max skills): T1: 16km Meta: 18km T2: 20km Faction: 21km
Just remove hics from the game.... |
Mira Chieve
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
24
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:46:42 -
[116] - Quote
Good change, it makes nano battleships a bit more usable.Which is good.
Also, could the nullsec blobbers please stop blobbing this thread with replies concerning something they have no idea about? The real counter to kiting - 70km webs - still exists.
Or maybe instead of crying you could - I don-¦t know - undock a Maulus and damp the kiter?
Oh wait, you can-¦t group damps - you would actually have to press more than just F1.
CCPls |
Romana Erebus
Syndicate Enterprise Northern Coalition.
57
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:50:11 -
[117] - Quote
No people kite because it triggers you because all you press is f1 and are too fat and lazy to learn to kite yourself.
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.
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Tung Yoggi
Null Sect
153
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:50:27 -
[118] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.
Let's start by saying that all Eve players are risk averse, to a point. Yes, our virtual belongings can be destroyed or stolen.
While a kiter is risk averse because he has means to dodge death (nanofibers + MWD), the goon is risk averse because he surrounds himself with 15000 other characters and countless blues (~diplomacy~)
Everyone has the right to be a coward. We should all get our coward's tools, for the sake of equality. |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
114
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:53:27 -
[119] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Adolf Mekansm wrote:So now a HIC is absolutly useless as it was before, and it has worst range than a gallente recon for a way more expensive hull...
Why ?
HIC became used, and just used, not overused. It was great ! It makes some pilot didn't able to adapt whine, but it was far away from being overused.
No one use them to takle super nowardays anyway. Without a great scram range these rip have no purpose to exist. Even worst than an Orthrus... Actually it still scrams at the same range as an Orthrus does. Just the Orthrus can get links to scram further than it. HICs shouldn't replace ships like the Lachesis, Arazu, Keres for scramming. which they did. For the record, I think CCP should remove the scram bonus from the Orthrus and leave just the Disruptor bonus (opposite to Maulus Navy) HICs are still incredibly tanky, get additional scramblers at no cost to tank by fitting high slots, have a bubble, incredible EHP for their size, can infi-point to 39.4km and stop capitals from jumping or taking gates. I think they'll still have a solid place in eve, they just won't be a 1 ship counter to all that they are right now for defense gangs.
Well and that is pretty narrow minded.
If you can and if it fits your comp, take an Lacheis and an Arazu for control supremacy. Just because a lot of people don-¦t realise that force multipliers add up way better than adding another "HIC" doesn-¦t mean the HIC is too strong. If possible, I take combat recons over HICs any time but sometimes you just need the ridiculous tank a HIC can offer you. Mostly in mid to large fleets. An Arazu wont cut it there where a HIC is a pegleg in small gangs or BLOPs stuff. It doesn-¦t hinder a lot of people to use a HIC in their small gang stuff but it doesn-¦t make it great either. Complete different roles for both hulls. And the people who are asking for a nerf simply don-¦t get that - it seems.
And yes I know I sound like a HIC fanatic but for the record, most of the times I am at the receiving end of the HIC point and actually lost 2 pretty expensive haulers on my alt to "solo HICs" over the last ~2years. Enraging moments but well, that-¦s EvE eh?
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Sonia Lane
nul-li-fy Circle-Of-Two
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:54:50 -
[120] - Quote
InSTiiNK Loutte wrote:After giving the ability to Rorqual to be SuperHictors, and you know retrograte HICs to be **** pointers.
I find the idea absolutely ridiculous.
In my honest opinion, you CCP, better keep proper gamerplay to proper ship types, and the last ship that needs a nerf is a HIC, and the first, is the Rorqual. So before Nerfing any other ships, nerf rorquals to give them back their natural gameplay, mining. At the same time, I find this very funny from a Pandemic Legion guy, upgrading Rorquals, and now they don't need HICs anymore, they downgrade them. :)
"My job here is done"
Best Regards, InSTiiNK Loutte
^ This! |
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Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
221
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 17:55:00 -
[121] - Quote
Jack Barros wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:Fleshgrind wrote:Nobody in my inner Ever circle of friends were calling for this or complained how overpowered it was. Where did the need for this change come from? If this was a push by the CSM it has misrepresented the community in my opinion. Your circle of friends is not the whole community ;-) TURN LEFT show us on the doll where the HIC touched you.
*Points at MWD legion taking dust in hangar for months* |
Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
132
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:03:10 -
[122] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships. Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob. It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning.
I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing." |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74882
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:06:03 -
[123] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships. Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob. It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning. I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing."
Says the guy from the alliance known for bringing superior numbers to everything.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Patty Loveless
The Northern Navy Shipyard Fidelas Constans
14
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:11:42 -
[124] - Quote
lanyaie wrote:Nice, although please leave HIC points to scram supers without the script. (Looking at you hels) Quote:TinkerHell ?????? MY ******* FIEND
nano snake revenant ftw |
Mira Chieve
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
24
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:11:57 -
[125] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships. Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob. It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning. I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing."
94 percent gangs.
Ok you know what you are on about.
I think you should go back to your Sanctum, the next wave seems to have spawned. |
Timm3h
Oruze Cruise White Stag Exit Bag
103
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:17:00 -
[126] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Timm3h wrote:*tips orthrus* M' gameplay Unironically HIC scrams just made Orthrus' much more prolific, because it's one of the few kiting ships that can project outside HIC Scram range while also tackling ships outside HIC scram range. What HICs killed was solo brawling with MJDs entirely, cheap, affordable or accessible kiting ships (RIP anyone trying to just take out a nano thorax, cane or stabber etc.). Flying 100mn stuff + needing a Keres to even undock if you want to do non Orthrus stuff is getting boring.
Instead of thinking of counters to the problem that is the HIC no-fly-zone, it's just a matter of picking the better ship (which in this case is the orthrus) to deal more dps that applies better, at longer range, with longer ranged warp disruption and more maneuverability. The statement here isn't that the orthrus becomes more prolific, it's that the orthrus REMAINS the stronger choice and that they're shuffling relatively minor issues around instead of dealing with the ship that was (and has been for quite a while) the first choice to begin with.
Regular scrams also kill solo MJD brawling, and there are several equally-fearsome things to a t1 nano cruiser/bc like the orthrus, rapier, huginn, arazu, lachesis, keres, any ship bonused for ECM, or any longer-ranged ship that can force you off grid with zero effort. People don't like the HIC because it is a tool to force content to stay localized, pulling the control of tempo and positioning away from the same dull kite garbage that we've seen for years now. Instead of using existing ships and modules to create fits to work against this utility granted from HIC scrams, people just complain until they get their return to the status quo.
*tips orthrus* |
Hirien
Frozen DD
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:17:19 -
[127] - Quote
TinkerHell wrote:Good. RIP HICs. Long live Gallente Recons actually being able to do their job again.
(role bonus for scram range on fiend plzplzplzpzlpzlpzlzplzplzz)
Imho the AT ships should always keep their bonuses when they are released... |
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
26
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:17:35 -
[128] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:omg why? HICs r pretty expensive and only chance how to point these annoying kite plague around and it is nerfed :-(
Kiting isnt a plague, blobbing is a plague. Kiting exists because 10 Ships gang up on 2 ships. Then the 10 dudes complain that the guys ran. WTF do you expect? What would you do?
Constantly in this game people complain about **** they do themselves, you blob someone post it on reddit, then you get blobbed and you call people dirty blobbers.
Someone runs you make fun of them for running they come back and counter blob you with a bigger blob and you turn around and run.
Its a game stop complaining so much jesus man, everyone are such huge hipocrits. Waaaaa 1 dude wont let me blob him with 10 guys its not fair waaaa. He is actually a good pilot and has implants nerf him nerf him.
I bet you complained about the bubble decay changes too.
How about you fight them on even terms and then they wont run.
Well done CCP on your recent announcements on changes. TY for your hard work, not all your changes will be perfect but progress is progress. |
CraftyCroc
The Keyboard Warriors
239
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:24:13 -
[129] - Quote
Hilarious the tears from the individuals who fly in 100+ man fleets over this. You have the numbers to field more stiletto's so just fix up.
Maybe now the dev's will fix this awful "booshing mechanic". The name itself is absurd -something thought up by generation snowflake no doubt. |
big miker
Syndicate Enterprise Northern Coalition.
491
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:24:22 -
[130] - Quote
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!1!!11!1!!!1!!!!1!!!!!1!!1
Latest video: Ferocious 9.0 - Vertical Supremacy
Nano Naglfar!
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CraftyCroc
The Keyboard Warriors
240
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:27:32 -
[131] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:I see alot of people talking about the Mordus Legion ships. If they are the problem then the sensible thing is to nerf them rather than have a class of ship that counters a wide array of ships. Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob. It is pretty much the same thing. People don't want to waste their ship on a fight they got no chance of winning. I disagree. I think it's more "People don't want even the slimmest chance of losing."
Ummmm...
I'll take a fight if i have a 5% chance of winning. I'm not fussed about losing a ship nor am i fussed about efficiency. I prefer piloting my own ship then flying in the blob. A 30KM scram gives me no options to nano. 0% chance of winning. |
l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT
1313
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:37:52 -
[132] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:
- HICs are an essential tool in close to midrange fleet compositions when fighting longer ranged compositions.
- HICs are an essential tool to shut down certain ships/compositions which are able to project pretty well against the common tackler like rapid lights, tracking bonused cruisers and alike.
- HICs allow small fleets to shut down a certain part of the grid against stuff that would kite them all the time. Still possible of course and by no means a hard counter.
- HICs by themself can be countered super easily, they need force multiplier to become really nasty.
Sounds like something that will still be possible after the change.
Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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sharpscg
Shiva Northern Coalition.
19
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:52:58 -
[133] - Quote
I oppose this change. I think the long rage HIC points have been fine, especially considering that the remainder of that ship is utterly useless in small gang. HICs are slow and have low dps, which was been a good trade off for the unique long scram. I'm sad to see the HIC return to irrelevance for all but lowsec super hunting and I guess bullshit remote sebo gatecamps, as you intentionally left the scram range at a level perfect for this activity. |
Alexhandr Shkarov
Swamphole Inc.
59
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:57:52 -
[134] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again People kite because they don't want to get blobbed to oblivion. It allows them to disengage when the enemy throws a couple of caps after a handful of subcaps. People kite because they are risk averse, not because they fear the blob.
I am learning to kite as brawler because there's literally no point brawling in anything but ganks anymore. Any fight that's small-ish results in your brawl comp being outran, or else so deep into the fight that strategic repositioning and other techniques no longer work.
Dumb change, now it's even easier to be a little obnoxious ****.
All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.
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Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
127
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:58:25 -
[135] - Quote
one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.
Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.
And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.
After these changes the HIC gets way more diversity, as it has 2 different scripts and a bubble. And piloting one is needing even more tactical understanding that it has now, as the slow cycletime combined with 2 very different script effects.
While at HIC's, the broadsword and the Phobos could use some small love to be as viable and multiusable platforms as the devoter and the onyx.
I still and once more really do like this change! |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
121
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:07:20 -
[136] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:
- HICs are an essential tool in close to midrange fleet compositions when fighting longer ranged compositions.
- HICs are an essential tool to shut down certain ships/compositions which are able to project pretty well against the common tackler like rapid lights, tracking bonused cruisers and alike.
- HICs allow small fleets to shut down a certain part of the grid against stuff that would kite them all the time. Still possible of course and by no means a hard counter.
- HICs by themself can be countered super easily, they need force multiplier to become really nasty.
Sounds like something that will still be possible after the change.
No, it-¦s not possible anymore. The reason a HIC has a slight chance in surviving the current mid to large fleet meta is the range of the scram and that the fu*cker actually scrams. Bringing the HIC closer to the hostile fleet means you have to pull your logi closer, your dps closer or let the HIC be the loner in front of the fleet. Removing the scram means you can-¦t shut down individual ships and focus them down. Inties are nice for that role as well but simply not useable against certain fleets. Same for recons. You need that stupid tank to survive in the first place or well, have a chance to survive.
Regarding small gang/solo stuff. Once more people start leaving "team:re*tard" and use way nastier stuff than a HIC in their small gangs we will see the same people cry all over again. Ewar in general is the most annoying thing - I personally experienced - in small gang encounters. Even mid seized fleets with unbonused ewar are super nasty. It-¦s just that people are lazy and the lazy option is a HIC but let-¦s be a bit logical here for a moment. A slow, 700mil plus ISK HIC with moderate range/application is no good option vs ewar recons or Mordus ships. If you want to brawl yeah, the HIC might be your choice but if you want to brawl and bring some ewar on top of it and mix it up it will multiply your force by a lot. I guess most of us know how nasty certain recons or even frigs can be when you-¦re engaged in a brawl and they appear on grid.
|
UAxLIFE
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:11:01 -
[137] - Quote
Know your role hictor pilot: apply project.mayhem, set destination Tama. |
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:11:59 -
[138] - Quote
Good change, CCP. HIC were really idiots (and too easy to kite with). |
Emmy Mnemonic
Svea Rike Circle-Of-Two
56
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:13:46 -
[139] - Quote
CCP, why are you fixing a problem that didn't exist for the broad masses of EVE players in the first place? Even for most small-scale pvp:ers, there has never been any problems with HICs beeing to oppressive or overpowered? Where on earth did you get that info from?! I strongly disagree with this change. It is not needed, especially not due to the reason you say!
Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]
|
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:16:42 -
[140] - Quote
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:CCP, why are you fixing a problem that didn't exist for the broad masses of EVE players in the first place? Even for most small-scale pvp:ers, there has never been any problems with HICs beeing to oppressive or overpowered? Where on earth did you get that info from?! I strongly disagree with this change. It is not needed, especially not due to the reason you say! https://puu.sh/ugFB5/955cc917b2.png |
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Meiqur Orez
Trillium Invariant Honorable Third Party
4
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:18:17 -
[141] - Quote
Oh dear,
Mark me down as a strong opponent to the change as marked here as a small gang kitey duder and pretty regular hic pilot.
So first some comparison
Lachesis with TS scram AND TS Point: acceptably fast Cost: 410m isk (just points and hull) 22.5k scram 27k overheated scram before links 30k scram with links 35.5k scram with links and overheat Can take RR
Orthrus with TS Scram + TS Point Zippy Cost 430 (just points and hull) 16.9k scram 20.3 scram hot 22.7k scram with links 26.6k scram with links and heat Can take RR
HIC: Slow as **** will scram to 21 with TS focus point Cannot take RR somewhat tanky
So a couple problems here, first the orthrus and especially lach should easily be able to outperform a hic while maintaining the ability to take RR and are considerably faster and more agile. Also a defensive scram on your orthrus almost certainly means the hic has no means to actually hold you down.
Additionally hics are the only viable way for a small group to counter web ships like vindicators and bhaalgorns without getting roflstomped. Well no more with these changed the over heated TS web will very nearly reach all the way out to the edge of scram range from your hic.
The hic agility is so low that the narrow window of "hold him down and not tackled back" basically means any hic pilot trying to maintain range is going to have a very rough time.
Anyway to sum up, rip hics, and this change is ********. Hyde your a dumbass.
|
Klaus vonKlauzwitz
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:30:41 -
[142] - Quote
I would like to see some extra speed and better capacitor on the hulls, especially as they'll have to be in heavy neut range to shut down MJDs.
Also, not being able to warp over 150AU from full cap is just pathetic, and very painful in Thera. |
Indy GosHawk
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:33:34 -
[143] - Quote
I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus. |
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:35:30 -
[144] - Quote
Indy GosHawk wrote:I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus. Or carriers nah ? |
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Spaceship Samurai
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:37:46 -
[145] - Quote
Captain jdd wrote:Indy GosHawk wrote:I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus. Or carriers nah ? What's wrong with carriers now? |
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
4
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:42:30 -
[146] - Quote
Should I really explain ? Lel. |
Indy GosHawk
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:46:22 -
[147] - Quote
Captain jdd wrote:Should I really explain ? Lel.
.....Yes? |
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
4
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:48:08 -
[148] - Quote
http://indonesiaglory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/how-brain-works-with-memory-for-kids-full.jpg |
Mira Chieve
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
24
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:51:50 -
[149] - Quote
Indy GosHawk wrote:I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus.
WAAAAAAAAH Why should CCP always cater for the nullsec babies?
Also, lol at people calling HICs slow.
But I suppose you are only used to overtanked ab fleet HICs. You are right here - those failfits aren-¦t a threat to any competent kiter.
But maybe some people actually have a brain and fly mwd nano linked and snaked hics that go 2,5 km/s cold.
Put a 40km scram on those and voila, instant win. Those are the truly oppressive HICs. Not that blob fleet bullshit. |
Ebag Trescientas
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:52:40 -
[150] - Quote
Meiqur Orez wrote: So first some comparison
Lachesis with TS scram AND TS Point: acceptably fast Cost: 410m isk (just points and hull) 22.5k scram 27k overheated scram before links 30k scram with links 35.5k scram with links and overheat Can take RR
Orthrus with TS Scram + TS Point Zippy Cost 430 (just points and hull) 16.9k scram 20.3 scram hot 22.7k scram with links 26.6k scram with links and heat Can take RR
HIC: cost around 450 Slow as **** will scram to 21 with TS focus point Cannot take RR somewhat tanky
So a couple problems here, first the orthrus and especially lach should easily be able to outperform a hic while maintaining the ability to take RR and are considerably faster and more agile. Also a defensive scram on your orthrus almost certainly means the hic has no means to actually hold you down.
This.
As a micro/small gang PvPer who regularly flies against extremely kitey groups (heavily leaning toward Orthrus/Inty), this is a pretty brutal change.
I don't think that most of the HICs are extremely OP in micro/small gangs. RegenOnyx is pretty bad (hello 3k+ DPS tank), but none of the rest are very balanced, and Broadsword is pretty awful.
HICs make an extremely good counter to kitey gangs, and can let groups that prefer brawling able to compete. Most ships fast enough to catch kiting ships is weak enough to get blapped (thanks to RLML).
Besides, what ever happened to small, measured changes? This is a 47% reduction in HICs scram effectiveness. (I suppose it's measured.)
As a suggestion, I think a more reasonable change would be to start with something like 30km cold, 35km hot for T2. |
|
My Cat Meows
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:53:40 -
[151] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Timm3h wrote:*tips orthrus* M' gameplay Unironically HIC scrams just made Orthrus' much more prolific, because it's one of the few kiting ships that can project outside HIC Scram range while also tackling ships outside HIC scram range. What HICs killed was solo brawling with MJDs entirely, cheap, affordable or accessible kiting ships (RIP anyone trying to just take out a nano thorax, cane or stabber etc.). Flying 100mn stuff + needing a Keres to even undock if you want to do non Orthrus stuff is getting boring.
i have to bump this, the hic change leaves us with a way greater variety. |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
127
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:53:50 -
[152] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:
This is the first post I read that has some substance in it. :)
The can-¦t tackle thing is correct for sure. But that refers to solo/small gang again right? I mean, a RMLM Onyx is nasty to tackle in an Inty or alike I imagine. But for fleet fights rapids make no sense. My fleet HIC barely has anything on it you could label as a direct damage dealing weapon system. Anyway, there is no need to tackle a HIC with a frigate/inty is there?
Regarding your utility vs mid-slot thingy. I agree, you can fit a couple WDFGs on a HIC and it-¦s usually best to get as many as you can on them - regarding fleet HICs. So yeh, mid-¦s for tank or whatever floats your boat. But and that-¦s something I value more than having utility highs or be able to fit multiple WDFGs in my highs. You get bonused ewar on the recons ships. So for small gang stuff you get more ewar per hull and damp+scram is a nice addition. Same for paint+web even when it-¦s usually more efficient to get more webs instead of point+web but well, more bang per hull in my book.
Last but not least the more versatile/complex thing. Do you really think that way? I mean, flying a HIC is not that hard now and won-¦t be hard if the nerf goes through. At least not from a perspective of actually deciding what to do and where to be. Changing scripts depending on situation is a no brainer and using a bubble will either kill you like it is now or you actually control the grid and the bubble is called for - again a no brainer. After all the HIC is no dictor which actually needs some finesse to be flown. HIC is something you can dual or even tripple box and the nerf would not change that at all. It will stay the same easy to use hull as it was before just with some un needed nerfs to it.
I forgot to mention, that in small scale yes.
As things are now, a devoter or a onyx role in small scale is BOTH antitackle and heavy tackle. Same role, as so many other kitey ships fall into. However as is now, it really is OP in this role, due to incredibly strong scram bonus.
Flying anything in fleet scale is not that hard is it? Orbit anchor / keep at range to anchor / align to ** -> lock broadcast --> f1.
Take a ship, any ship, and remove the fleet or most of the fleet from around you, and it immediatelly gets more variable, difficult and in my oppinion interesting. Failing to f1 and correct time in a bigger fleet means you miss a killmail, failing to f1 at correct time in solo/micro/small size can easily mean you die to that. The more buttons your ship has, the more possible mistakes is to be made. The more variations each button has, it increases the variations a lot more.
I do agree your view of hic flying in a bigger fleet. It is just as no brainer, as most of the other roles in any bigger fleet. |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
121
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:54:54 -
[153] - Quote
Captain jdd wrote:Should I really explain ? Lel.
Well, if you think carriers are "broken" or need a fix you might explain your pov? Maybe you see something different from the majority? Some people might say Nid/Thanny are absurdly good when it comes to ratting. Others might feel the Thanny is too strong when it comes to pvp while the Chimera and the Archon are, do they exist anymore? So yeah, maybe explain your statement. There are many things that pop into my mind when it comes to carriers and I-¦d like to see some downgrading on certain things to avoid carriers online in EvE but maybe you have some different thoughts?
Currently, from what I can see, carriers shred everything from frigates to battleships other caps. So yeah, it looks a bit crazy when coupled with FAX-¦s but maybe it-¦s just me. And maybe this is for another topic? :) |
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:04:08 -
[154] - Quote
ok so lets look over the fourms at all the complaints about hic's been op the very specilised heavy skilled cruiser that is very specilised in what it does
fourms scaned results
no complaints
so i ask what dumb ass csm member asked for this change and is the a reasonable reson for it
the hic's are very specilised skill intensive ship that nobody ive ever heard complain about being op
so larken can you plz tell me where you are getting your information from that the hic need to be nerfed to almost useless
hic's cannot move v.fast when it has a bubble up and cannot be repped
when using a focused point it is used moslty to catch supers and titians and as an annti boosher on fleets but its not the best ship for this there are many other ships in the game that are better for catching the nano faggots pvper already
this change is unnesserary and pointless and will make 1 of the fundamentals this that makes the hic unique in the game it does what it was intended to do
so my point is are you ******* ******** larken
|
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
98
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:10:59 -
[155] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.
Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.
And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.
!
well did you realize that HIC cannot get remote reps but frig in your example can? as well 2 times cheaper arazu can be remote rep... who care about 37km disruptor when any HIC is slow as fu... well as destroyer and everybody with little brain, mwd and small capacitor can manage easily escape...
if you need nerf HIC, it is still better to let them have scram like 28km when faction 37km is so huge problem...
btw. did you try fit devoter as solo combat ship? I think not... try fit it with heavy pulses and then speak about tank...
sry for my English :-(
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Sp3ctr380
Seventeenth Battalion Honorable Third Party
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:10:59 -
[156] - Quote
clipper shore wrote: so i ask what dumb ass csm member asked for this change...
Sounds like Hyde cried about it. |
Mira Chieve
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
26
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:15:34 -
[157] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Ugly Eric wrote:one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.
Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.
And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.
! well did you realize that HIC cannot get remote reps but frig in your example can? as well 2 times cheaper arazu can be remote rep... who care about 37km disruptor when any HIC is slow as fu... well as destroyer and everybody with little brain, mwd and small capacitor can manage easily escape... if you need nerf HIC, it is still better to let them have scram like 28km when faction 37km is so huge problem... btw. did you try fit devoter as solo combat ship? I think not... try fit it with heavy pulses and then speak about tank...
Solo Beam Devoter is pretty strong. 40km scram and 500 dps at that range? Try tackling it with anything smaller than a HIC
But you have no clue.
|
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
766
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:16:32 -
[158] - Quote
Sp3ctr380 wrote:clipper shore wrote: so i ask what dumb ass csm member asked for this change...
Sounds like Hyde cried about it.
Pretty much the entire solo and small gang community agrees with him. Renters and people who can't PVP without a cyno hate him.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Reverberation Project
624
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:19:38 -
[159] - Quote
So bloody confused as to what i think about this idea. Its not like those hic points stop most nano gangs anymore since 100mn fits is the new meta, but still. However with its current implementation i will agree focused hic points is overpowered due to range, but i fear this is a bit to much when it comes to nerf. Why not let it warp scram out to 24km which is what t2 disruptors do now (or at least let it go out to 28km with heat if 24km isnt the standard)?
If you wanna know why i would like more then 20km range, you would only have to look at some of the gates in minmatar space to see how bloody far away ppl uncloak.
GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
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Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:20:02 -
[160] - Quote
CraftyCroc wrote:
I'll take a fight if i have a 5% chance of winning. I'm not fussed about losing a ship nor am i fussed about efficiency. I prefer piloting my own ship then flying in the blob. A 30KM scram gives me no options to nano. 0% chance of winning.
Oh no, your ship has a counter! Whatever will you do?! Oh, whine and cry until that counter is nerfed. OP SUCCESS! |
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Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:21:24 -
[161] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:
Says the guy from the alliance known for bringing superior numbers to everything.
And your point is?
Sorry I can make friends and enjoy playing the game with them. If you don't want blobbed, stay away. vOv |
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
766
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:23:04 -
[162] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:So bloody confused as to what i think about this idea. Its not like those hic points stop most nano gangs anymore since 100mn fits is the new meta, but still. .
Guess why it's a 100mn meta Because of HICs dawg
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:23:35 -
[163] - Quote
Mira Chieve wrote: 94 percent gangs.
Ok you know what you are on about.
I think you should go back to your Sanctum, the next wave seems to have spawned.
Didn't this used to be your space? Too soon?
Don't hate me because I'm not a friendless loser. If you can't handle the blob, stay away. |
Mira Chieve
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
26
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:34:31 -
[164] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Mira Chieve wrote: 94 percent gangs.
Ok you know what you are on about.
I think you should go back to your Sanctum, the next wave seems to have spawned.
Didn't this used to be your space? Too soon? Don't hate me because I'm not a friendless loser. If you can't handle the blob, stay away.
Whatever you say sheep #2789.
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Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:43:40 -
[165] - Quote
Mira Chieve wrote:Ted McManfist wrote:Mira Chieve wrote: 94 percent gangs.
Ok you know what you are on about.
I think you should go back to your Sanctum, the next wave seems to have spawned.
Didn't this used to be your space? Too soon? Don't hate me because I'm not a friendless loser. If you can't handle the blob, stay away. Whatever you say sheep #2789.
I'm sorry I don't play the game according to your solo samurai style. You want 1v1? go nuts! My play style isn't any less valid because you don't care for it.
You and your ilk are booty-blasted because you ONLY want to fight with a zero percent chance of losing. The long HIC scrambler gave people like me a non-zero chance to stop people like you, and you can't have that. Your narrative is safe again. |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
129
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:54:31 -
[166] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Ugly Eric wrote:one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.
Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.
And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.
! well did you realize that HIC cannot get remote reps but frig in your example can? as well 2 times cheaper arazu can be remote rep... who care about 37km disruptor when any HIC is slow as fu... well as destroyer and everybody with little brain, mwd and small capacitor can manage easily escape... if you need nerf HIC, it is still better to let them have scram like 28km when faction 37km is so huge problem... btw. did you try fit devoter as solo combat ship? I think not... try fit it with heavy pulses and then speak about tank...
Well, actually yes. Quite a few times. Either by myself or by a corpie on a roam. Between us we have around 100 killmarks with the thing.
Quote: [Devoter, Devoter **** tissue] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Centum B-Type Medium Armor Repairer Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Medium Capacitor Booster II Stasis Webifier II 50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II True Sansha Warp Disruption Field Generator
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II Medium Energy Metastasis Adjuster II
Warrior II x5 Acolyte II x5
Navy Cap Booster 400 x32 Focused Warp Disruption Script x1 Conflagration M x5 Scorch M x10 Imperial Navy Xray M x5 Imperial Navy Infrared M x5 Nanite Repair Paste x238
1741 m/s cold 2453 hot 304 dps with scorch to 39.7 + 6.25 km. cold. 262 hp/s tank cold 339.1 hp/s tank hot. Replace with AAR to get more peak tank.
Similar fit is possible to onyx with even better weapon DPS and aplication. Devoter has flight of small drones to top the 304 dps it pumps with pulses. |
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:56:11 -
[167] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote: You and your ilk are booty-blasted because you ONLY want to fight with a zero percent chance of losing. The long HIC scrambler gave people like me a non-zero chance to stop people like you, and you can't have that. Your narrative is safe again.
Speaking of risk, You could also use a Lachesis, but then that has 1/3rd of the EHP so you might actually lose it to a gang if you're out of position. HICs having the EHP that they do, with the scram range was oppressive and the answer to 80% of ships in the metagame. Pretty much everyone in the small gang community already adjusted to flying 100mn AB stuff or Orthrus (Which your HIC is useless against).
This whole risk vs reward argument is entirely ********.
Of course people want to win, and they don't want to lose their ship. For us goons, that means we're going to bring friends, for smaller sides, they're going to use ships that don't have to commit because in brawling you're always going to lose if you're outnumbered, there is significantly less outplay potential vs kiting gangs where a smaller but more skilled kiting gang can win against more unorganised kiters.
The problem with HICs was they were the answer to almost everything cruiser sized or bigger, forced the meta to change to 100mn by themselves, don't have much counterplay and combined the roles of multiple specialised ships into 1 150k EHP package. They killed 80% of the roaming meta, forcing people into Orthrus, Keres Damps or 100mn AB.
Unironically the only kiting ship that I think is absurd and needs nerfing (The Orthrus) is the one ship that didn't get hurt as much as almost everything else, including brawling ships like BCs and BS with MJDs that relied on them to escape from small frigate tacklers that didn't commit to scram range. The HICs hurt the brawling meta almost as much, if not more than the kiting metagame.
I for one am glad to see 5x more options by removing HICs.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Matou83
Core Industry. Blades of Grass
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:02:24 -
[168] - Quote
s+¬rieusement plus sa va plus vous +¬tes abrutie, en gros en solo maitenant le hid tu le trash it et puis voil+á.... super bande de cr+¬tin et on le recolle comment l'adversaire .......
IMBECILITE INCOMMENSURABLE, FULL ******** CCP!!!!! go nerf titan et ms no???? |
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
98
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:09:23 -
[169] - Quote
Mira Chieve wrote:
Solo Beam Devoter is pretty strong. 40km scram and 500 dps at that range? Try tackling it with anything smaller than a HIC. AAR is plenty of tank, how much damage are you going to project and apply at 40km?
But you have no clue. Calling HICs slow as fu.
what about anything with neuts? or anything with AB? double prop 200ac svipul will troll you hard... or every frig can orbit you at 500 and you hit nothing...
sry for my English :-(
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Mizhir
TURN LEFT
74892
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:11:33 -
[170] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Mizhir wrote:
Says the guy from the alliance known for bringing superior numbers to everything.
And your point is? Sorry I can make friends and enjoy playing the game with them. If you don't want blobbed, stay away. vOv
If you don't want to getkited, stay away. The logic goes both ways. You blob in order to lower the risk of losing your ships. I kite instead.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
129
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:14:29 -
[171] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Mira Chieve wrote:
Solo Beam Devoter is pretty strong. 40km scram and 500 dps at that range? Try tackling it with anything smaller than a HIC. AAR is plenty of tank, how much damage are you going to project and apply at 40km?
But you have no clue. Calling HICs slow as fu.
what about anything with neuts? or anything with AB? double prop 200ac svipul will troll you hard... or every frig can orbit you at 500 and you hit nothing...
Wrong, look at the fit I posted above.
Anyway, fact is that no ship should be uncounterable. Every ship, every module, every tactic should have a counter to it. Otherwise it will not be rock/paper/scissors |
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
772
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:19:14 -
[172] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Mira Chieve wrote:
Solo Beam Devoter is pretty strong. 40km scram and 500 dps at that range? Try tackling it with anything smaller than a HIC. AAR is plenty of tank, how much damage are you going to project and apply at 40km?
But you have no clue. Calling HICs slow as fu.
what about anything with neuts? or anything with AB? double prop 200ac svipul will troll you hard... or every frig can orbit you at 500 and you hit nothing...
It has 25m3 of drones so it can force off a frigate pretty easily. Also, a dual prop svipul and most frigate is slower than devoter with AB on if it doesn't have you scrammed, so you need to get caught by it, or it needs to land on you at 0km (Both of which are you getting outplayed/******* up).
If you ram Devoter in a Svipul, you will get scrammed at 20km~. and he will MWD away while you AB at him slower and you'll die.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
98
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:23:19 -
[173] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote: Wrong, look at the fit I posted above.
Anyway, fact is that no ship should be uncounterable. Every ship, every module, every tactic should have a counter to it. Otherwise it will not be rock/paper/scissors
pulse devoter is fine with web it can track, but beam cannot track at close range most of small things even with web.
tbh is not better or more effective use deimos, vigiliant or orthrus? I think you do not undock anymore with that pulse devoter
sry for my English :-(
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Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
773
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:29:23 -
[174] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Ugly Eric wrote: Wrong, look at the fit I posted above.
Anyway, fact is that no ship should be uncounterable. Every ship, every module, every tactic should have a counter to it. Otherwise it will not be rock/paper/scissors
pulse devoter is fine with web it can track, but beam cannot track at close range most of small things even with web. tbh is not better or more effective use deimos, vigiliant or orthrus? I think you do not undock anymore with that pulse devoter
Vigilant is much more vulnerable, only has 19km/20km web with no links and less tank. Deimos needs to ram, it dies to a blob.
Orthrus is still pretty good, but it's also not as oppressive against cruiser+ like HIC was.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Mira Chieve
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
29
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:34:02 -
[175] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Mira Chieve wrote:
Solo Beam Devoter is pretty strong. 40km scram and 500 dps at that range? Try tackling it with anything smaller than a HIC. AAR is plenty of tank, how much damage are you going to project and apply at 40km?
But you have no clue. Calling HICs slow as fu.
what about anything with neuts? or anything with AB? double prop 200ac svipul will troll you hard... or every frig can orbit you at 500 and you hit nothing...
Wait how are you going to get into scram range when I scram you at 40km? Even with a 20km scram you will not glide into scram range. A 1mn Svipul is still way too slow.
Of course if the nerf happens then you should replace beams with pulses and the Devoter will not be such a strong solo ship anymore.
But with a 40km scram? Ridiculous....
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Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
129
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:35:48 -
[176] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Ugly Eric wrote: Wrong, look at the fit I posted above.
Anyway, fact is that no ship should be uncounterable. Every ship, every module, every tactic should have a counter to it. Otherwise it will not be rock/paper/scissors
pulse devoter is fine with web it can track, but beam cannot track at close range most of small things even with web. tbh is not better or more effective use deimos, vigiliant or orthrus? I think you do not undock anymore with that pulse devoter
I think I keep flying my devoter. Now I just need to use regular focus point script for offencive work and focused scram script for defencive work and I need to be able to recognize the possible change of the situation in good time beforehand beacause cycletime.
I still do think this change is very good.
Ofcourse everyone wants a ship that's indestructible, 7000m/s without heat, implants or links, 5000dps to gridwide range, but that would break the game. Devoter / onyx was not that good, but they were pretty damned good.
They still do have 21km scram, whitch is more than most other ships. They still do have that scram / 40km disruptor in a HIGHSLOT, they still have huge tank if fitted to it.
Only problem I have is the broadsword and phobos. Mainly the broadsword is pretty useless at the moment. It could use a lilbit more range to autos and a dronebay, and it would be on par with the others. |
Kruull Death
Supreme Headquarters Alien Defence Organisation
5
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:39:18 -
[177] - Quote
RIP HIC. time to extract HIC skills. |
Messoroz
aquila inc Verge of Collapse
519
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:39:42 -
[178] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Timm3h wrote:*tips orthrus* M' gameplay Unironically HIC scrams just made Orthrus' much more prolific, because it's one of the few kiting ships that can project outside HIC Scram range while also tackling ships outside HIC scram range. What HICs killed was solo brawling with MJDs entirely, cheap, affordable or accessible kiting ships (RIP anyone trying to just take out a nano thorax, cane or stabber etc.). Flying 100mn stuff + needing a Keres to even undock if you want to do non Orthrus stuff is getting boring.
Orthruses however don't have brick tanks and tiny sigs like HICs which makes kiting vs kiting possible. |
Meiqur Orez
Trillium Invariant Honorable Third Party
6
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:42:50 -
[179] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Sp3ctr380 wrote:clipper shore wrote: so i ask what dumb ass csm member asked for this change...
Sounds like Hyde cried about it. Pretty much the entire solo and small gang community agrees with him. Renters and people who can't PVP without a cyno hate him.
No they don't. |
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
102
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:48:37 -
[180] - Quote
Mira Chieve wrote:
Wait how are you going to get into scram range when I scram you at 40km? Even with a 20km scram you will not glide into scram range. A 1mn Svipul is still way too slow.
Of course if the nerf happens then you should replace beams with pulses and the Devoter will not be such a strong solo ship anymore.
But with a 40km scram? Ridiculous....
where usual HIC tackle you?
after gate jump so where is HIC? near gate. so what do you solve that? you burn to gate (12km) and check if HIC is in scram range, if not just easily jump back...
39km warp disruptor is useless when most of others cruisers r faster. any solid kite ship can now easily tackle you even these null 4k+ m/s interceptor plague and you do nothing. HIC was only one ship which these tacklers try hold with high risk.
after that change I get more fun with any command ship for same price and with better chance to survive
sry for my English :-(
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Bobmon
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
206
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:53:16 -
[181] - Quote
Happy Hyde Happy Life
@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12
|
Falcon Starwalker
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:58:37 -
[182] - Quote
Oh boo hoo, small gang PvP has something that causes the nano MWD gangs trouble. Overall the HIC has been in a crap role for a long time. Giving the infini point the scram was the first decent bonus this class of ship has had in a long time.
The class is slow, can't get any assistance and suffers from horrible base stats other than its tank. Penalizing the only decent ability this ship has just cause it can counter the 5K+ nano gangs, which are mostly immune to most other ships, is traditional CCP biased idiocy.
Yes I am straight up calling CCP devs biased, as many of the active devs are small gang PvP, which just so happen to fly broken ships like 5k orthruses that can only be affected by ships like HICs.
So yeah, good job with reducing the only useful aspect of a HIC in small gangs. Keep "balancing" this game to suit your play style and ignore the actual broken mechanics in the game.
|
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
122
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 22:15:12 -
[183] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:exiik Shardani wrote:Ugly Eric wrote:one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.
Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.
And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.
! well did you realize that HIC cannot get remote reps but frig in your example can? as well 2 times cheaper arazu can be remote rep... who care about 37km disruptor when any HIC is slow as fu... well as destroyer and everybody with little brain, mwd and small capacitor can manage easily escape... if you need nerf HIC, it is still better to let them have scram like 28km when faction 37km is so huge problem... btw. did you try fit devoter as solo combat ship? I think not... try fit it with heavy pulses and then speak about tank... Well, actually yes. Quite a few times. Either by myself or by a corpie on a roam. Between us we have around 100 killmarks with the thing. Quote: [Devoter, Devoter **** tissue] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Centum B-Type Medium Armor Repairer Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Medium Capacitor Booster II Stasis Webifier II 50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II True Sansha Warp Disruption Field Generator
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II Medium Energy Metastasis Adjuster II
Warrior II x5 Acolyte II x5
Navy Cap Booster 400 x32 Focused Warp Disruption Script x1 Conflagration M x5 Scorch M x10 Imperial Navy Xray M x5 Imperial Navy Infrared M x5 Nanite Repair Paste x238
1741 m/s cold 2453 hot 304 dps with scorch to 39.7 + 6.25 km. cold. 262 hp/s tank cold 339.1 hp/s tank hot. Replace with AAR to get more peak tank. Similar fit is possible to onyx with even better weapon DPS and aplication. Devoter has flight of small drones to top the 304 dps it pumps with pulses.
Thanks for some actual input on this topic. You are one, if not the only one who is actually putting up some numbers and give out some stuff to look at and compare to. Others just spit out random crap they can-¦t or don-¦t want to back up or simply sperging here.
So let-¦s get on the actual thing. May I ask why you prefer this thing over a dedicated tackler like Arazu? Your fit has no tank for a HIC, is slower than an Arazu (at least mine) by a lot and the only things that speaks for it is the long scram which I can match when using links and your 300 vs my 120dps. Sure, it is no infinite scram but I am not about tackling supers/plex farmers/DSTs. My damage is not as good as yours either but I am way faster, have longpoint, longscram plus dampener while sporting the same tank with more speed.
[spoiler]
[Arazu, Spooky]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II Phased Muon Scoped Sensor Dampener True Sansha Warp Scrambler Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor 50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Valkyrie II x3 Warrior II x2
Quafe Zero x1 Javelin M x800 Spike M x1200 Strong Mindflood Booster x1 Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x1200 Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M x1200 Scan Resolution Dampening Script x1 Targeting Range Dampening Script x1
[/spoiler]
And all these other snowflakes, I am looking at you Suitonia and followers who sperg about the super tanky HICs all the time. Can you guys give a single example of a super tanky HIC that is actually capable of being used in small gangs? Because I can give you a bloody HIC too and call it out for being super tanky and whatnot but guess what? It is slow, it is clunky and it is getting outplayed pretty easy. It-¦s only purpose is, to lock down a certain area on grid/keeping a super/cap in place without getting shred by fighters within seconds. It tanks 5k dps cold and 6.5k dps hot while being cap stable under neut pressure without using cap charges but guess what else it does? It-¦s not moving pretty fast. The stats are with full crystals, pill and links before someone thinks you get that out of a "solo Onyx". Oh, did I mention it comes with a steep price tag? No? Well, it costs a lot and is not really something I-¦d fly for real except to tackle something like a super. You can downgrade the bling of course and lose out on tank to make it viable for shutting down a part of the grid vs smaller stuff but it is still a 1bil fit that can be outplayed without problems.
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Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
776
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 22:29:42 -
[184] - Quote
Falcon Starwalker wrote:Oh boo hoo, small gang PvP has something that causes the nano MWD gangs trouble. Overall the HIC has been in a crap role for a long time. Giving the infini point the scram was the first decent bonus this class of ship has had in a long time.
The class is slow, can't get any assistance and suffers from horrible base stats other than its tank. Penalizing the only decent ability this ship has just cause it can counter the 5K+ nano gangs, which are mostly immune to most other ships, is traditional CCP biased idiocy.
Yes I am straight up calling CCP devs biased, as many of the active devs are small gang PvP, which just so happen to fly broken ships like 5k orthruses that can only be affected by ships like HICs.
So yeah, good job with reducing the only useful aspect of a HIC in small gangs. Keep "balancing" this game to suit your play style and ignore the actual broken mechanics in the game.
Orthrus' don't care about HICs, HICs killed small gang brawling battlecruisers and battleships more than they killed kiting ships. Orthrus was the one kiting ship that still performs fine with HICs around (Because it can tackle to 45km unlinked, and projects way past HIC scram range). Unfortunately for ships like nano BCs, most nano cruisers, they cannot and were removed from the metagame.
People keep citing HICs as a counter to the Orthrus and it's just not true. The Orthrus is overpowered, but Orthrus don't suffer nearly as much as any other casual kiting ship does, also HICs destroyed BS/BC brawling more than kiting, since the kiting gangs adapted to just running 100mn on everything or Keres support.
The only thing HICs counter is anyone not flying an Orthrus, or fitting 100mn and want to PVP in a cruiser or bigger, which hey surprise, is 80% of the current metagame.
I'm not looking forward to having to fly an Orthrus or 100mn for another 2 years.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
776
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 22:36:15 -
[185] - Quote
Quote: Thanks for some actual input on this topic. You are one, if not the only one who is actually putting up some numbers and give out some stuff to look at and compare to. Others just spit out random crap they can-¦t or don-¦t want to back up or simply sperging here.
So let-¦s get on the actual thing. May I ask why you prefer this thing over a dedicated tackler like Arazu? Your fit has no tank for a HIC, is slower than an Arazu (at least mine) by a lot and the only things that speaks for it is the long scram which I can match when using links and your 300 vs my 120dps. Sure, it is no infinite scram but I am not about tackling supers/plex farmers/DSTs. My damage is not as good as yours either but I am way faster, have longpoint, longscram plus dampener while sporting the same tank with more speed.
[spoiler]
[Arazu, Spooky]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II Phased Muon Scoped Sensor Dampener True Sansha Warp Scrambler Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor 50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Valkyrie II x3 Warrior II x2
Quafe Zero x1 Javelin M x800 Spike M x1200 Strong Mindflood Booster x1 Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x1200 Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M x1200 Scan Resolution Dampening Script x1 Targeting Range Dampening Script x1
[/spoiler]
And all these other snowflakes, I am looking at you Suitonia and followers who sperg about the super tanky HICs all the time. Can you guys give a single example of a super tanky HIC that is actually capable of being used in small gangs? Because I can give you a bloody HIC too and call it out for being super tanky and whatnot but guess what? It is slow, it is clunky and it is getting outplayed pretty easy. It-¦s only purpose is, to lock down a certain area on grid/keeping a super/cap in place without getting shred by fighters within seconds. It tanks 5k dps cold and 6.5k dps hot while being cap stable under neut pressure without using cap charges but guess what else it does? It-¦s not moving pretty fast. The stats are with full crystals, pill and links before someone thinks you get that out of a "solo Onyx". Oh, did I mention it comes with a steep price tag? No? Well, it costs a lot and is not really something I-¦d fly for real except to tackle something like a super. You can downgrade the bling of course and lose out on tank to make it viable for shutting down a part of the grid vs smaller stuff but it is still a 1bil fit that can be outplayed without problems.
https://i.imgur.com/GY41fRt.png 135k EHP, 500 anti support DPS to 47.5km. It only goes 1.4km/s cold but there isn't much you can do to it You can ofc bring links for this Onyx too. Total cost is cheaper than your Arazu. You can drop a BCU and damage control for double nano which will give 2.2km/s when linked, which is pretty oppressive, while still being able to solo most nano Cruisers 1v1.
You can get the same tank on a Broadsword if you sacrifice all damage that goes faster than most kiting cruisers in the game so if you want a pure support fit it's way better than a lachesis with better than linked scram range with 3x the EHP.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Pandemic Horde Rulez
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 22:51:04 -
[186] - Quote
hahaha look at these small gang pvpers like TURN LEFT TURN RIGHT into the dumpster hahahahaha.
listen all u small gang people leave ur corp apply to pandemic horde or karmafleet this should be only and best way to pvp in this game tbh you should always lose to more people doesnt matter how good at the game you are how bad we are, HIC should = you die to us even if we just assign drone to FC and go AFK.
It's MMO for reason.
if u want to play skill game go play DOTA or Overwatch lmao
HIC is good because it completely broken and overpowered but at same time difficult for smaller side to use because it slow and expensive so easy for us to blob. this is good balance mechanic.
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Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
123
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 22:52:45 -
[187] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Quote:https://i.imgur.com/GY41fRt.png 135k EHP, 500 anti support DPS to 47.5km. It only goes 1.4km/s cold but there isn't much you can do to it You can ofc bring links for this Onyx too. Total cost is cheaper than your Arazu. You can drop a BCU and damage control for double nano which will give 2.2km/s when linked, which is pretty oppressive, while still being able to solo most nano Cruisers 1v1. You can get the same tank on a Broadsword if you sacrifice all damage that goes faster than most kiting cruisers in the game so if you want a pure support fit it's way better than a lachesis with better than linked scram range with 3x the EHP. Thanks for the input. :) My Arazu is cheaper to start with that. That HIC is slow as fu*ck again. So yeah, exactly my point. You can get a tanky HIC but it is slow. [quote]You can drop a BCU and damage control for double nano which will give 2.2km/s when linked, which is pretty oppressive, while still being able to solo most nano Cruisers 1v1.
What the hell is considered "nano cruiser" nowadays? I am not sure about your definition but everything slower than 2.5/2.8 can get the fu*ck out. Additionally you-¦re comparing a HIC with links to a "nano cruiser"? I mean come on, of course the HIC will go to town with it except the pilot fucks up. There is nothing wrong with it at all. So my point stands, show me a HIC that is tanky and comparable to a nano cruiser when it comes to speed and damage projection/usefulness.
And for the record: In the past two months I haven-¦t seen a single small gang nor mid seized gang that were using a ******* HIC in their comp. We used them for fleet fights a lot and sometimes people messed around with them. If memory serves I actually welped an Onyx but I didn-¦t see a single gang using a Onyx/HIC. I have seen plenty of cruiser gangs though and the only 100mn "cruiser" I-¦ve encountered was a nasty Legion. :D |
yogizh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:04:34 -
[188] - Quote
Another meaningless nerf concieved by small gang pubbies that bring 0 content to EVE except their Twitching and ATs. Why the hell do you listen to these clowns CCP ? Just delete all ships, keep only BC snipers so we can kite ourselves forever.
|
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:07:17 -
[189] - Quote
yogizh wrote:Another meaningless nerf concieved by small gang pubbies that bring 0 content to EVE except their Twitching and ATs. Why the hell do you listen to these clowns CCP ? Just delete all ships, keep only BC snipers so we can kite ourselves forever.
People actually want to play a sandbox MMO their way? almost 80% of the ship pool obsoleted by this one ship? Nah **** it. Play our way only.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
yogizh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:21:59 -
[190] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:yogizh wrote:Another meaningless nerf concieved by small gang pubbies that bring 0 content to EVE except their Twitching and ATs. Why the hell do you listen to these clowns CCP ? Just delete all ships, keep only BC snipers so we can kite ourselves forever. People actually want to play a sandbox MMO their way? almost 80% of the ship pool obsoleted by this one ship? Nah **** it. Play our way only.
Ok play small gangs in lowsec. Play whatever. Third change I am reading today and I am not impressed. This crap is leading to arranged honour fights and hours spend chasing around risk averse fools. For nearly two years we are listening to "changes are in progress". Changes to what ? LOL ? DOTA ? Pffft. Numbers don't lie, big fleet fights draw most people to the game, waiting somewhere for a 1v1 for hours to get blobbed by ceptors ? I can see that working out well. Oh wait it already does, but I have to make a twitch account first to let everyone know that I am not a cyno bait so someone will be so gracious to fight me.
:cripes:
|
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exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
103
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:25:42 -
[191] - Quote
well am I blind because I do not see a HIC in every roaming gang in providence? and there is no HIC at every gate :-(
but tons of uncatchable interceptors, tons of Sabres (other bublers still exist?), tons of cloaky ships and Orthruses, Brutixes. I never heard anyone there to say anything wrong is with HIC's...
tell my please why 37km scram on one expensive, HI skills and special ship is wrong, but unstopable interceptor can disrupt infinite time my VNI and my drones can kill him rarely (I have there 3x DNC, acolytes fly over 10k and still luckily hit that inty?) is fine?
sry for my English :-(
|
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:26:56 -
[192] - Quote
yogizh wrote:Suitonia wrote:yogizh wrote:Another meaningless nerf concieved by small gang pubbies that bring 0 content to EVE except their Twitching and ATs. Why the hell do you listen to these clowns CCP ? Just delete all ships, keep only BC snipers so we can kite ourselves forever. People actually want to play a sandbox MMO their way? almost 80% of the ship pool obsoleted by this one ship? Nah **** it. Play our way only. Ok play small gangs in lowsec. Play whatever. Third change I am reading today and I am not impressed. This crap is leading to arranged honour fights and hours spend chasing around risk averse fools. For nearly two years we are listening to "changes are in progress". Changes to what ? LOL ? DOTA ? Pffft. Numbers don't lie, big fleet fights draw most people to the game, waiting somewhere for a 1v1 for hours to get blobbed by ceptors ? I can see that working out well. Oh wait it already does, but I have to make a twitch account first to let everyone know that I am not a cyno bait so someone will be so gracious to fight me. :cripes:
If you joined MoA, the posting quality in both Goons and MoA would go up.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
yogizh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:29:58 -
[193] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:yogizh wrote:Suitonia wrote:yogizh wrote:Another meaningless nerf concieved by small gang pubbies that bring 0 content to EVE except their Twitching and ATs. Why the hell do you listen to these clowns CCP ? Just delete all ships, keep only BC snipers so we can kite ourselves forever. People actually want to play a sandbox MMO their way? almost 80% of the ship pool obsoleted by this one ship? Nah **** it. Play our way only. Ok play small gangs in lowsec. Play whatever. Third change I am reading today and I am not impressed. This crap is leading to arranged honour fights and hours spend chasing around risk averse fools. For nearly two years we are listening to "changes are in progress". Changes to what ? LOL ? DOTA ? Pffft. Numbers don't lie, big fleet fights draw most people to the game, waiting somewhere for a 1v1 for hours to get blobbed by ceptors ? I can see that working out well. Oh wait it already does, but I have to make a twitch account first to let everyone know that I am not a cyno bait so someone will be so gracious to fight me. :cripes: If you joined MoA, the posting quality in both Goons and MoA would go up.
Yes, please tell me how many hics are on your lossmails in a month ? Also please educate me about t2 cruisers which you don't obviously fly. https://zkillboard.com/character/1192491827/losses/ |
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:32:47 -
[194] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:tell my please why 37km scram on one expensive, HI skills and special ship is wrong, but unstopable interceptor can disrupt infinite time my VNI and my drones can kill him rarely (I have there 3x DNC, acolytes fly over 10k and still luckily hit that inty?) is fine?
Bullshit. |
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
223
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:36:29 -
[195] - Quote
Pandemic Horde Rulez wrote:hahaha look at these small gang pvpers like TURN LEFT TURN RIGHT into the dumpster hahahahaha.
listen all u small gang people leave ur corp apply to pandemic horde or karmafleet this should be only and best way to pvp in this game tbh you should always lose to more people doesnt matter how good at the game you are how bad we are, HIC should = you die to us even if we just assign drone to FC and go AFK.
It's MMO for reason.
if u want to play skill game go play DOTA or Overwatch lmao
HIC is good because it completely broken and overpowered but at same time difficult for smaller side to use because it slow and expensive so easy for us to blob. this is good balance mechanic.
I'm GM on overwatch |
Casper24
Oblivion Watch HYDRA RELOADED
11
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:43:23 -
[196] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Suitonia wrote:Quote:https://i.imgur.com/GY41fRt.png 135k EHP, 500 anti support DPS to 47.5km. It only goes 1.4km/s cold but there isn't much you can do to it You can ofc bring links for this Onyx too. Total cost is cheaper than your Arazu. You can drop a BCU and damage control for double nano which will give 2.2km/s when linked, which is pretty oppressive, while still being able to solo most nano Cruisers 1v1. You can get the same tank on a Broadsword if you sacrifice all damage that goes faster than most kiting cruisers in the game so if you want a pure support fit it's way better than a lachesis with better than linked scram range with 3x the EHP. Thanks for the input. :) My Arazu is cheaper to start with that. That HIC is slow as fu*ck again. So yeah, exactly my point. You can get a tanky HIC but it is slow. [quote]You can drop a BCU and damage control for double nano which will give 2.2km/s when linked, which is pretty oppressive, while still being able to solo most nano Cruisers 1v1. What the hell is considered "nano cruiser" nowadays? I am not sure about your definition but everything slower than 2.5/2.8 can get the fu*ck out. Additionally you-¦re comparing a HIC with links to a "nano cruiser"? I mean come on, of course the HIC will go to town with it except the pilot fucks up. There is nothing wrong with it at all. So my point stands, show me a HIC that is tanky and comparable to a nano cruiser when it comes to speed and damage projection/usefulness. And for the record: In the past two months I haven-¦t seen a single small gang nor mid seized gang that were using a ******* HIC in their comp. We used them for fleet fights a lot and sometimes people messed around with them. If memory serves I actually welped an Onyx but I didn-¦t see a single gang using a Onyx/HIC. I have seen plenty of cruiser gangs though and the only 100mn "cruiser" I-¦ve encountered was a nasty Legion. :D
___ Phobos [Phobos, Garmons Addy] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Small Capacitor Booster II Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Warp Disruption Field Generator II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2325 Focused Warp Disruption Script x2 Nanite Repair Paste x200 Navy Cap Booster 400 x22 Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M x2490
502 dps with AM with 32km opti and 47km falloff 2361ms cold 36.4k EHP OH and a 37km scram. not to mention cap stable if ur not an idiot
So my point stands, show me a HIC that is tanky and comparable to a nano cruiser when it comes to speed and damage projection/usefulness.
There ya are :)
smack allowed in english only
|
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:50:09 -
[197] - Quote
Matou83 wrote:s+¬rieusement plus sa va plus vous +¬tes abrutie, en gros en solo maitenant le hid tu le trash it et puis voil+á.... super bande de cr+¬tin et on le recolle comment l'adversaire .......
IMBECILITE INCOMMENSURABLE, FULL ******** CCP!!!!! go nerf titan et ms no????
U mong, speak english |
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 23:53:52 -
[198] - Quote
Casper24 wrote: Phobos [Phobos, Garmons Addy] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Small Capacitor Booster II Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Warp Disruption Field Generator II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2325 Focused Warp Disruption Script x2 Nanite Repair Paste x200 Navy Cap Booster 400 x22 Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M x2490
And they said orthrus was cancer hu.
This **** is still gonna be ******* awesome post patch. |
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
104
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:06:17 -
[199] - Quote
Tomoko Sunji wrote:
And they said orthrus was cancer hu.
This **** is still gonna be ******* awesome post patch.
just one thing. How often did you see that HIC in space and how often did you see orthrus?
sry for my English :-(
|
lord xavier
Rubbed Out PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
148
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:12:25 -
[200] - Quote
Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again You don't brawl at a 30k orbit in a hic for anything other than to be risk adverse and too cheap to fit a nicely fit orth. |
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Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:13:30 -
[201] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote: just one thing. How often did you see that HIC in space and how often did you see orthrus?
obviously less, because most of the guys in eve are plebs that can't fit decently a ship unless it becomes mainstream and easy to play. |
Lamajagarn McMyra
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
18
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:14:51 -
[202] - Quote
A script tp disrupt cynosural field generators would be nice to, way of countering cynos => more killed capitals => profit! |
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
104
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:19:56 -
[203] - Quote
Tomoko Sunji wrote:
obviously less, because most of the guys in eve are plebs that can't fit decently a ship unless it becomes mainstream and easy to play.
orthrus TOP 5 zkill ship any HIC there? no
sry for my English :-(
|
Casper24
Oblivion Watch HYDRA RELOADED
12
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:21:06 -
[204] - Quote
lord xavier wrote:Hans Downherpantz wrote:brawling dies again You don't brawl at a 30k orbit in a hic for anything other than to be risk adverse or you're too cheap to fit a nicely fit orth.
U should never orbit in this game ever.
Also yes i am obviously much to cheap and risk averse to fly an orthrus... hmmmmm.
This is more fun than an orthrus, takes a bit of skill to acutally fly, and against the meta so not everyone knows a direct counter - oh ya, and u live if a blob warps in on ur "brawling" hic
smack allowed in english only
|
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:22:31 -
[205] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Tomoko Sunji wrote:
obviously less, because most of the guys in eve are plebs that can't fit decently a ship unless it becomes mainstream and easy to play.
orthrus TOP 5 zkill ship any HIC there? no
As i said, if noone make a "dank pvp videa" most people in new eden won't even think about trying to fit it this way. And btw, this ship is more skill intensive that would ever been an orthrus (got a cap booster tho, easier cap management i give you that). |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
353
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:24:09 -
[206] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Did the ultra risk-averse 5,000 m/sec kiting people cry too loud?
yeah but its probably right to do even though I don't like it. I will HTFU and adapt. fly Lachesis etc.
Now please make the Lach useful as armor tanker and faster/more agile and actully doing good dps in the cruiser range. thanks.
|
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:45:19 -
[207] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Changes: - Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script
- Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus
Now balance out HIC's by increasing there base speed twice, and removing disallow propusion/support while having buble generator active.
GM's exploiting ingame, banning those who beat them, and now changing game mechanics for there pleasure... just sell ccp dev office to some serious company. |
Rath Valent
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
7
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 01:03:00 -
[208] - Quote
These changes are OK but there is another aspect of HICs that should be looked at.
This surely will annoy T3C, ceptor and yacht pilots who are used to blowing through nullsec but nullified ships are a gameplay element that needs some sort of actual counter.
My corp CEO has suggested that a hictor bubble should be able to catch nullified ships so there is at least something that can be put on the field to try to prevent a nullified ship from simply moonwalking to zero on every warpable object.
Personally I would extend this to T2 bubbles as well but that's probably too much and the HIC approach requires active rather than passive engagement.
What does everyone think? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2805
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 02:45:45 -
[209] - Quote
Ted McManfist wrote:Did the ultra risk-averse 5,000 m/sec kiting people cry too loud?
I guess they did.
I was all full of positive thoughts about some of the changes, but this is a terrible change. We finally had a way to force some of the risk-averse kiters to be smarter about picking their engagements and you had to go and ruin it.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Ruby Gnollo
17
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 03:12:41 -
[210] - Quote
Pandemic Horde Rulez wrote: HIC is good because it completely broken and overpowered but at same time difficult for smaller side to use because it slow and expensive so easy for us to blob. this is good balance mechanic.
If getting killmails in Eve was a matter of skill, Koreans would play and win ar it. Leave Eve to the rejects of competitive games, please |
|
Syri Taneka
Un4seen Development Sev3rance
145
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 03:20:30 -
[211] - Quote
Current script range is 37.5km on t2. 80% of that would be 30, not 20. Typo? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2806
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 04:12:39 -
[212] - Quote
If CCP is insistent on this change, I'd recommend not making them quite so drastic. Buff the Lachesis so it can scramble at 37-40 kilometers. Reduce the maximum range on the HIC scrambling infinite point to 27-30 kilometers. That leaves a niche for both ships, without making either one utterly overpowered or useless.
I've been flying these ships for just over a year in small gang / home defense situations. Yes, if you ran into me in your kiting ship this past year, you probably did not have a very good day. Our counter-nano gangs used the Onyx and Huginn to good effect (at least when I was around, I know some of my less-experienced guys and gals got totally wrecked a few times). The Onyx was particularly nice because it could murder tackle, which made it easier to control the engagement. Additionally, it didn't die immediately if you kept your logistics hidden off grid or had them hang back to sucker kiters in.
In the future, I guess I'll use a Lachesis, but it is a very poor substitute for the HIC. In small gangs, as long as we are disciplined about not chasing stupidly, the outcome won't be any different. We'll either catch the kiters and kill them, or they will run away. Since the Lachesis is not as survivable, I expect logistics ships will be more important in the future, which means most of the elite kiters will whine about our logistics and then run away instead of whining about our HIC's and running away.
The small gang HIC's really rely on only using one utility slot for the WDFG. You give up 90 DPS to fit a second WDFG, which hurts in a small gang environment. So, while the overall nerf to the scrambler range is bad, it's worse that you have to drop your long range tackle to switch to the scrambling script, or give up some of your already rather low DPS. Fleet ships won't be as affected by this, because they tend to fit multiple HIC points. So they can keep the long point on something while having the scrambler ready to go if something gets close enough to scram.
Here is the Onyx fit I was using. She'll always have a soft spot in my heart. Decent DPS (~430 with heat), solid tank (~92k EHP with heat), kind of slow (~2200 m/s with heat, ~2700 with heat and boosts), and sluggish, but I had a lot of fun with her.
[Onyx, Onyx] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Pith B-Type EM Ward Field Medium Capacitor Booster II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II Rapid Light Missile Launcher II Rapid Light Missile Launcher II Rapid Light Missile Launcher II Rapid Light Missile Launcher II Warp Disruption Field Generator II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
128
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 05:11:55 -
[213] - Quote
Casper24 wrote:
___ Phobos [Phobos, Garmons Addy] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Small Capacitor Booster II Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Warp Disruption Field Generator II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2325 Focused Warp Disruption Script x2 Nanite Repair Paste x200 Navy Cap Booster 400 x22 Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M x2490
502 dps with AM with 32km opti and 47km falloff 2361ms cold 36.4k EHP OH and a 37km scram. not to mention cap stable if ur not an idiot
So my point stands, show me a HIC that is tanky and comparable to a nano cruiser when it comes to speed and damage projection/usefulness.
There ya are :)
That looks slightly better than the one Suitonia posted but I am not convinced by it to be honest. Seriously, where are these ships all the time when I am out or digging through EvE data? It-¦s fair game to say that I spend ~2hours a day with "data digging" and roughly 5 hours at least out in space but I seriously haven-¦t seen a single HIC outside of a gatecamp that was even close to something I-¦d call "nasty". Your Phobos looks like it could **** on someones day but I can-¦t find them. Yet some people seem to be absolutely sure they are out there waiting in the dark and will scram them from far away. The pure data tells another story and 5+ hours a day running around looking for **** - currently - in Black Rise gave me the same impression as the data. There are HICs yes but they are on the gates with a sebo Exec or something alike and they are nasty and I don-¦t want them to be there but that-¦s about it. I also see them a lot when I run through Providence, again they are on the gates shitting on a solo/small gang players parade. Seriously. slowly this whole nerf the HIC stuff smells like someone is making **** up here. For whatever reason they do that, I don-¦t know but whenever I am asking for some solid arguments for a nerf not much is coming around here.
- There is not a single HIC that falls into the "nano cruiser" role from what I can tell so far. Too clunky, too slow, too sluggish.
- There is not a single argument for the nerf. Only "because they are OP/insert sth". No logical reason at all. Or did I miss sth?
- There is no data to back up that HICs are destroying small gangs. I just read this "100mn cruisers are the only option". Hell yeah, they are a pretty good option but not because of the HIC but more so because you run into bigger and bigger gangs/fleets out there all the time and getting pinned down by suicide tacklers is a serious thing. The 100mn option is simply too good to pass on in most cases. No sigbloom, no negative cap, no fear of scrams no matter what source.
- The community never had a problem with the new HIC except some vocals when the HIC buff came back then.
When I look at the HIC from a Hyde point of view or a pure solo player pov yeah, I want a HIC nerf because they screw my gameplay. From every other pov I don-¦t see a justification in a nerf to the HIC.
But maybe we are not on the same page the whole time and "small gang" needs clarification here. Not sure but if you take less than 10 ships including scout and light tackle the HIC seems to be a pegleg and you-¦re better off min/maxing your ****. If you go with 12 to 20 ships the counters towards a HIC are plentyful so it-¦s somewhat balanced. But for the sake of it, can someone clarify their pov on this and feed some data?
|
Casper24
Oblivion Watch HYDRA RELOADED
12
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 07:03:40 -
[214] - Quote
I dunno about all ur data diving. But simple as - how many people in this game ( percent wise ) do u think actually think on their own fits. not anything found on zkill or some youtube video. In each group of people how many "content: providers and forward-thinking" people are there out there for u to actually find.
This number is much higher in the FW frig meta granted, but for cruiser roaming - there are very few. That is why imo ur "data" or whatever that means isn't showing you what some of us are mentioning. Everyone and their mom is in an orthrus, a gila, a vni or omen navy. Why ?? cause that's what someone else who saw someone else, or was killed by one of these were flying.
Searching stats or zkill or whatever ur doing is never going to show u the most powerful ships or best setups. Just the most popular, and thats a never ending cycle until some "e-famous something" points it out. See chessurs nose, Suitonias kessy, Zoes Atron, Brains Keres. Everyone in different circles has their own things to insert there. But you get the picture.
smack allowed in english only
|
Vexors Gonna Vex
The Spies Must Flow
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 07:43:36 -
[215] - Quote
Yes, cause you haven't already given enough tools to the EVE population to avoid conflict.
Just give everything interdiction nullification so I can quit hoping small gang PVP comes back and unsub. |
Solaris Vex
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
10
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 08:00:08 -
[216] - Quote
So fleet hics will now be replaced by huggins and bhaalgorns. A range reduction to 30-35km scram would have be much more reasonable. RIP hics , RIP ship variety. |
Huydo
Tr0pa de elite. Northern Coalition.
68
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 08:00:55 -
[217] - Quote
With this changes, this class of ships, will be completely useless. |
yogizh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 08:18:09 -
[218] - Quote
Huydo wrote:With this changes, this class of ships, will be completely useless.
:agreed: I just wonder what is going to be the next ship that requires months of skills and will be nerfed to the level where 2 faction frigates can kill them. Seems legit.
CCP remove ability of cruisers to fit 100 MN ABs, not changing properties, but simply Dissalow usage on this class. Then you will see what this is really about
|
Solaris Vex
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
10
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 08:34:11 -
[219] - Quote
Casper24 wrote:[quote=Trajan Unknown][quote=Suitonia][quote] ___ Phobos [Phobos, Garmons Addy] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Small Capacitor Booster II Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Warp Disruption Field Generator II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2325 Focused Warp Disruption Script x2 Nanite Repair Paste x200 Navy Cap Booster 400 x22 Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M x2490
502 dps with AM with 32km opti and 47km falloff 2361ms cold 36.4k EHP OH and a 37km scram. not to mention cap stable if ur not an idiot
So my point stands, show me a HIC that is tanky and comparable to a nano cruiser when it comes to speed and damage projection/usefulness.
There ya are :)
Hmm a phobos with no rep and minimal buffer. Any ship with a rep and decent damage at 37km would outlast this quite easily. A Gila would be cheaper and stronger.
|
Vladislav Igorevic
Blackjack and Hookers corp. Infinity Space.
34
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 10:03:13 -
[220] - Quote
-º-+ -é-¦-+, -+-+-Å-é-î -ò-¦-¦ -ü-¦-¦-é-ï-¦-¦-¦-é-ü-Å -¦ -ú-ô? |
|
Luscius Uta
241
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 10:19:49 -
[221] - Quote
Should've been like that from the start.
Workarounds are not bugfixes.
|
ikir
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 11:19:53 -
[222] - Quote
well thx guys you just killed HICs again t1 frig can now hold you down in your HIC, also next time you want to balance something you should try and compare the time invested in maxing out some ship before nerfing it to the ground, i could agree to 24-27km scram range but this is just pointless also you might wanna answer to cry babies for once they should maybe adapt and try to evolve in tactics instead of just killing entire line of ships gg |
Nut Cullet
League of Gentlemen Just let it happen
8
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 12:00:21 -
[223] - Quote
what a Rubbish idea, i might as well utalise one the mid slots and fit a warp disrupter and get 24k range from t2 instead - no ones gonna bother fitting a script , when they just fit a mid slot that has more range than the top slot and does the same thing |
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
223
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 12:10:49 -
[224] - Quote
Nut Cullet wrote:what a Rubbish idea, i might as well utalise one the mid slots and fit a warp disrupter and get 24k range from t2 instead - no ones gonna bother fitting a script , when they just fit a mid slot that has more range than the top slot and does the same thing
Are sure you understand the difference between a warp scrambler/wsfg and a warp disruptor ? |
Nut Cullet
League of Gentlemen Just let it happen
8
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 12:37:52 -
[225] - Quote
time to buy those skill extractors , and rip Hics out my head as its now gonna be an unwanted useless ship \o/ |
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
223
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 12:49:40 -
[226] - Quote
Nice edit !
So to quote myself:
Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing.
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3813
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 12:51:04 -
[227] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:The new Focused Warp Scrambling Script will have the following ranges (with max skills): - T1: 16km
- Meta: 18km
- T2: 20km
- Faction: 21km
well at least we know the range is balanced and at least with heat the lach can now out do the hic always seemed strange it was better.
be nice if shorter range scripts for both the point and scram were added that came with reduced cap costs.
also
can we please get a bubble script that lowers the radius so that a level V hic can get around the same size as a level 1? sometimes you need smaller bubbles and it kinda sucks that once you skill it up you can't reset (other than extractors but that's not really viable)
BLOPS Hauler
|
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Reverberation Project
625
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 13:05:24 -
[228] - Quote
Pandemic Horde Rulez wrote:hahaha look at these small gang pvpers like TURN LEFT TURN RIGHT into the dumpster hahahahaha.
listen all u small gang people leave ur corp apply to pandemic horde or karmafleet this should be only and best way to pvp in this game tbh you should always lose to more people doesnt matter how good at the game you are how bad we are, HIC should = you die to us even if we just assign drone to FC and go AFK.
It's MMO for reason.
if u want to play skill game go play DOTA or Overwatch lmao
HIC is good because it completely broken and overpowered but at same time difficult for smaller side to use because it slow and expensive so easy for us to blob. this is good balance mechanic.
I love how this comes from some dumbass in a noob corp that dont have the guts to post with his main
GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3813
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 13:22:41 -
[229] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:Pandemic Horde Rulez wrote:hahaha look at these small gang pvpers like TURN LEFT TURN RIGHT into the dumpster hahahahaha.
listen all u small gang people leave ur corp apply to pandemic horde or karmafleet this should be only and best way to pvp in this game tbh you should always lose to more people doesnt matter how good at the game you are how bad we are, HIC should = you die to us even if we just assign drone to FC and go AFK.
It's MMO for reason.
if u want to play skill game go play DOTA or Overwatch lmao
HIC is good because it completely broken and overpowered but at same time difficult for smaller side to use because it slow and expensive so easy for us to blob. this is good balance mechanic.
I love how this comes from some dumbass in a noob corp that dont have the guts to post with his main
i love how we use hics to trap overconfident caps from those all powerful large groups... and will continue to do so after this change
BLOPS Hauler
|
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
189
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 14:09:03 -
[230] - Quote
A bit overdone, CCP. A range between 20km and what it is now would make more sense.. Otherwise you're buffing kitey nonsense even more. |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3814
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 14:50:21 -
[231] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:A bit overdone, CCP. A range between 20km and what it is now would make more sense.. Otherwise you're buffing kitey nonsense even more.
Ooor
You could just use something like an arazu. You know a dedicated ship that from conception is for long range warp disruption/scram and damps. Rather than keeping this incredibly powerful effect on what is already an incredibly powerful ship
BLOPS Hauler
|
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
27
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 15:21:50 -
[232] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:A bit overdone, CCP. A range between 20km and what it is now would make more sense.. Otherwise you're buffing kitey nonsense even more.
Learn how to be a good FC and Kitey nonsense turns into dead nonsense. |
Bronopoly Crushingit
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 15:35:18 -
[233] - Quote
Lucian James wrote:Lucian James wrote:I was just told:
This was, apparently, requested by Mr Hyde of CSM and Youtube fame
So you are making a game-wide huge nerf for one whiny caster and CSM rep?
How terrible are you people. This is the same My Hyde that uses his CSM meeting time to talk **** on alliances and other people. He's quitting Eve in 6 months anyway, taking the bar and becoming a lawyer... why should we bother listening to someone like this? I would really like CCP Larrkin to explain that.
Sounds like a fantastic use of Larrikin's time. You should probably be CCP's COO. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3818
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 15:47:40 -
[234] - Quote
Bronopoly Crushingit wrote:Lucian James wrote:Lucian James wrote:I was just told:
This was, apparently, requested by Mr Hyde of CSM and Youtube fame
So you are making a game-wide huge nerf for one whiny caster and CSM rep?
How terrible are you people. This is the same My Hyde that uses his CSM meeting time to talk **** on alliances and other people. He's quitting Eve in 6 months anyway, taking the bar and becoming a lawyer... why should we bother listening to someone like this? I would really like CCP Larrkin to explain that. Sounds like a fantastic use of Larrikin's time. You should probably be CCP's COO.
You guys do know plenty of people have been requesting this nerf since the addition of a scram effect was announced right? It wasn't just one guy
BLOPS Hauler
|
Cade Windstalker
896
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 15:49:08 -
[235] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:Nice edit ! So to quote myself: Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing.
RIP me, I'm dying
This may be the greatest metaphor I've ever seen. Or at least the greatest one I've seen this month.
Seriously though, everyone saying this is gonna make HICs useless clearly only uses them for super-scrams, probably in HS or LS small gangs, and doesn't want to fit up a Lachesis with a fraction of the tank to get long range scrams. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3818
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 15:56:05 -
[236] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Lucy Callagan wrote:Nice edit ! So to quote myself: Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder about sailing. RIP me, I'm dying This may be the greatest metaphor I've ever seen. Or at least the greatest one I've seen this month. Seriously though, everyone saying this is gonna make HICs useless clearly only uses them for super-scrams, probably in HS or LS small gangs, and doesn't want to fit up a Lachesis with a fraction of the tank to get long range scrams.
and it seems they totally forgot that hics haven't been able to do this for very long and small gangs were not dead before the scram was added
BLOPS Hauler
|
Cade Windstalker
896
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 16:04:08 -
[237] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:and it seems they totally forgot that hics haven't been able to do this for very long and small gangs were not dead before the scram was added
Yeah, at this point I think my brain just processes "This is totally going to completely and utterly kill _________" as "This is going to mildly inconvenience me personally and impact my playstyle in a slightly negative way and I am therefore vehemently against this change, regardless of its reasonableness or utility to the game as a whole." |
The Sinister
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 16:50:00 -
[238] - Quote
No one will ever Fly HICtors again for PVP LOL, Now the only use for HICtors is rolling WH.
Good Going CCP... FAIL some more and EVE will die sooner! |
Primus Vaganza
Urkrathos Corp LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 16:51:10 -
[239] - Quote
As always, CCP never disappoints us.
Why not screw up something that works and then fubar it so they can fix it again ?
Lets drink some coffee and imagine how we can fix the fixes that `ll fix what we fubarred fixing it.
You guys going to fix the long range heavy fighters too so they can be used as intended at 200 km ?
We need to start getting WOW accounts and start Minecrafting ? Play LEGOS ?
Nice going CCP, keep working on how we ll never have the 60 k players back online !
WOOOOOOOOOT !!!!!! |
Lug Muad'Dib
Wise Humans Sword
53
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 16:54:17 -
[240] - Quote
Very good new! Was obviously so imbalanced.. |
|
Twilight Mourning
Suddenly Corporation. Suddenly Spaceships.
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:04:07 -
[241] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi m8s, In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback. WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORSThe current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes. Changes: - Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script
- Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus
The new Focused Warp Scrambling Script will have the following ranges (with max skills): - T1: 16km
- Meta: 18km
- T2: 20km
- Faction: 21km
The blueprint for the Focused Warp Scrambling Script will be available at all the same place & price as the Focused Warp Disruption Script blueprint is available.
RIP my nano-Broadsword for nano-fleets.
Broadsword faction scram 21k, Lachesis faction scram 22.5k or 27k with heat. HICs are great for small nano-fleets to control the range of incoming tackle. This isn't helping small gangs nearly as much as it's hurting them. |
Farr Arrow
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:11:50 -
[242] - Quote
I like these changes. Thank you. |
Jonatan Reed
Origin. Did he say Jump
87
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:15:12 -
[243] - Quote
Finally.
You can still point **** at 37/39km, you just can't scram.
ELITE PVP, WHADDUP
|
Lord Molly
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
427
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:20:47 -
[244] - Quote
oh ccp why you gotta hate on the solo onyx pilot bro's?
My Youtube Chan
Alliance Youtube Chan
|
Zockhandra
Flames Of Chaos
34
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:31:32 -
[245] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi m8s, In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback. WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORSThe current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes. Changes: - Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script
- Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus
The new Focused Warp Scrambling Script will have the following ranges (with max skills): - T1: 16km
- Meta: 18km
- T2: 20km
- Faction: 21km
The blueprint for the Focused Warp Scrambling Script will be available at all the same place & price as the Focused Warp Disruption Script blueprint is available.
Fantastic changes, this should open up much more viability for roaming and small group fights without big home-field advantages. though that range still seems a bit on the long side, it certainly opens up the options of T2 disruptors on regular ships again for kiting.
Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you.
Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned,
across from the bubble and into your hull.
|
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
736
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:42:39 -
[246] - Quote
At the very least let us overheat the HIC point, as has been requested by others as well.
If not that, then extend the scram range to a base of 20, and build up from there. It doesn't get bonused by links, so Lachesis will still have a role.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
|
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
134
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:44:58 -
[247] - Quote
Casper24 wrote:I dunno about all ur data diving. But simple as - how many people in this game ( percent wise ) do u think actually think on their own fits. not anything found on zkill or some youtube video. In each group of people how many "content: providers and forward-thinking" people are there out there for u to actually find.
This number is much higher in the FW frig meta granted, but for cruiser roaming - there are very few. That is why imo ur "data" or whatever that means isn't showing you what some of us are mentioning. Everyone and their mom is in an orthrus, a gila, a vni or omen navy. Why ?? cause that's what someone else who saw someone else, or was killed by one of these were flying.
Searching stats or zkill or whatever ur doing is never going to show u the most powerful ships or best setups. Just the most popular, and thats a never ending cycle until some "e-famous something" points it out. See chessurs nose, Suitonias kessy, Zoes Atron, Brains Keres. Everyone in different circles has their own things to insert there. But you get the picture.
Edit - Just a side note - how often do you ever see a small gang comp take on another small gang comp - this doesn't happen, as 2 highly skilled gangs will not put themselves in a position they cannot pull out of. Its 90% small gang vs kitchen sink or gate camp ( where there are none of these "forward thinking skilled players" that your data is looking for.
I would say the percentage of people who "invent" new fits is pretty low and outside of some niche things for special tasks/tournaments a specific hunt there is not much room for stuff that wasn-¦t there before. But what does that have to do with the topic actually? My point is not to show off some crazy fits but the amount of HICs used in small gang scenarios. No matter if you lose your "special HIC" or not it will end up in the data stream. The fit doesn-¦t bother me at all, just pure numbers. And from what I can tell HICs are barely used in small gang stuff compared to all other scenarios. If the HIC would be ass oppressive as some people call it to be you would see it everywhere. But this is not the case except for gatecamps. You will find them a lot on the hi-sec camps, low and null-sec entry gates but that-¦s it. Maybe counting hi-sec stations too where they seem to be a regular appearance as well.
I barely see two small gangs take on each others and agree on the points you made about the reasoning. And we-¦re getting closer to the core of the problem it seems. Screwing with gatecamps in nano gangs can be a pita and yes, HICs on gates are pure cance*r but that doesn-¦t make them oppressive and is no problem for small gangs except you run blind into the camp or engage the thing with a wrong comp. If the reasoning for all the complains is, that you can-¦t mess with proper organised gatecamps then well, I am sorry but I don-¦t engage combat carriers with cruisers either. Non the less, I can understand the pain that gatecamps can cause since it-¦s pretty much no effort to get some juicy kills and sometimes even tears and yes it kinda triggers me when I jump into a system with my slicer/dramiel/insert frigate, get alpha-¦ed by a bloody gatecamp and get a "gf" in local. But as much as I sometimes wish "gatecamps" wouldn-¦t exist they are part of the game and just because they feell "oppressive" doesn-¦t mean they should not exist. |
Lord Molly
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
427
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:46:05 -
[248] - Quote
like 30km would be ok, but yeah turbo nerf to 21km is fa far to harsh i think you will see a huge decline in their use in fleets
My Youtube Chan
Alliance Youtube Chan
|
Lord Molly
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
427
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:55:05 -
[249] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSDaMGBbHVQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg1thXYeCWQ
Gotta leave those there for prosperity i guess
My Youtube Chan
Alliance Youtube Chan
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3821
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 18:05:38 -
[250] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:At the very least let us overheat the HIC point, as has been requested by others as well.
If not that, then extend the scram range to a base of 20, and build up from there. It doesn't get bonused by links, so Lachesis will still have a role.
i find leaving it at the same range as an unheated lach to be best that way the lach has a role even if you don't have links
BLOPS Hauler
|
|
Cade Windstalker
901
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 18:47:07 -
[251] - Quote
Twilight Mourning wrote:RIP my nano-Broadsword for nano-fleets.
Broadsword faction scram 21k, Lachesis faction scram 22.5k or 27k with heat. HICs are great for small nano-fleets to control the range of incoming tackle. This isn't helping small gangs nearly as much as it's hurting them.
I think you may be confusing something that hurts a particular small fleet comp with something that hurts small fleets in general. These are not the same thing. This does make it harder to control range and keep MWDing targets at arms length, but you still have a ship that can do that quite well, it's just squishier and you have to make more of a tradeoff for it...
Lord Molly wrote:like 30km would be ok, but yeah turbo nerf to 21km is fa far to harsh i think you will see a huge decline in their use in fleets
.... that's the point? |
Twilight Mourning
Suddenly Corporation. Suddenly Spaceships.
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 18:53:16 -
[252] - Quote
Bobmon wrote:Happy Hyde Happy Life
He won't be getting my vote again. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3821
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 18:58:23 -
[253] - Quote
Twilight Mourning wrote:Bobmon wrote:Happy Hyde Happy Life He won't be getting my vote again.
because he brought up a concern the community had been voicing for a while?
yeah not the type of candidate i want either
BLOPS Hauler
|
Twilight Mourning
Suddenly Corporation. Suddenly Spaceships.
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 19:09:39 -
[254] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Twilight Mourning wrote:Bobmon wrote:Happy Hyde Happy Life He won't be getting my vote again. because he brought up a concern the community had been voicing for a while? yeah not the type of candidate i want either
You have your opinion, I have mine. *shrug* |
01d Man
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 19:24:58 -
[255] - Quote
Do you Devs even talk to the CSM. What a stupid change. This was a valid change 2 years ago but not in the current meta |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
129
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 19:37:42 -
[256] - Quote
Warp scrambing/disrupting in general is oppressive overall, its such a dumb ass idea with the current gaming these days. The counter argument is "players should be forced to commit or not commit" but the game play becomes too dull and predictable.
These modules or the concept of making people decide to commit or not commit needs a new direction. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3826
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 19:38:43 -
[257] - Quote
01d Man wrote:Do you Devs even talk to the CSM. What a stupid change. This was a valid change 2 years ago but not in the current meta
has the hic even had a scram for two years? it's all a blur
BLOPS Hauler
|
penifSMASH
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
466
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 19:47:39 -
[258] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:At the very least let us overheat the HIC point, as has been requested by others as well.
If not that, then extend the scram range to a base of 20, and build up from there. It doesn't get bonused by links, so Lachesis will still have a role.
I completely agree with this post.
These changes are in the right direction. I think the real issue with the complaints in this thread are with Garmurs and Orthruses, which are in need of a balance pass. |
Solaris Vex
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
13
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 19:56:51 -
[259] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Twilight Mourning wrote:Bobmon wrote:Happy Hyde Happy Life He won't be getting my vote again. because he brought up a concern the community had been voicing for a while? yeah not the type of candidate i want either
What community has been voicing that? Probably just the small nano gang crew, and its not as if they need any help the orthrus is still OP.
This change nerfs a niche ship to help a playstyle thats already strong.
And remember the T2 point requires investing a million sp for graviton physics V, a skill with literally no other pvp use. Add a another 1.2 million sp to train hics V and you can bet that most people don't have a 37km scram. My scram range is 32km and after these change will be ~18km, aka totally useless. I might as well fly an orthrus which has similar scram range and is better in other ways too. |
Cade Windstalker
902
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 20:01:40 -
[260] - Quote
Solaris Vex wrote:What community has been voicing that? Probably just the small nano gang crew, and its not as if they need any help the orthrus is still OP.
This change nerfs a niche ship to help a playstyle thats already strong.
And remember the T2 point requires investing a million sp for graviton physics V, a skill with literally no other pvp use. Add a another 1.2 million sp to train hics V and you can bet that most people don't have a 37km scram. My scram range is 32km and after these change will be ~18km, aka totally useless. I might as well fly an orthrus which has similar scram range and is better in other ways too.
Doesn't matter if most people didn't have the max range, before this you still easily got a significantly higher Scram range with a HIC than you could with a focused EWar ship and a load more tank and gank in the bundle. |
|
Solaris Vex
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
13
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 20:21:53 -
[261] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Doesn't matter if most people didn't have the max range, before this you still easily got a significantly higher Scram range with a HIC than you could with a focused EWar ship and a load more tank and gank in the bundle.
No hic has good damage relative to its price. Tank and scram range were the hics selling points. They don't have the range, speed, or damage projection of on othrus, and neither the orthrus or hics could point as far as a Lach. These were well balanced stats that gave each ship a role, but after these changes the Lach can point AND scram farther then a hic. |
Ele Rebellion
Discount Grapes Inc Darwinism.
74
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 20:37:29 -
[262] - Quote
Please give overheating a range bonus! |
Na'av
Biomass Party All Paths Lead to Anoikis
7
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 20:41:39 -
[263] - Quote
Lucian James wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Scrams not affect afterburners ( propulsion module options ).
Maybe what really needs to be taken into the consideration is why people prefer MWD? Why AB is less desired. Maybe real fix is in increasing cap usage of the MWD so you cannot perma run it without any cap related fit modifications.
HIC offered good possibility to fight kite meta - why are you taking this away? HIC scram range was very important for the fighting the MJD and MJFG meta - now like every thing is jumping.
I like current HIC for the ability to say - if you want to fight - fight not run.
This will be bad change. I agree 100%. CCP can you go one day this week without being complete idiots? First the alliance name changes and now this garbage? You're making it really easy to play other games besides Eve. Please hire some developers that either play the game or stop making changes that some tiny minority in eve complains about; this constant slew of crap from you people is beyond irritating. Your customer service and development is starting to take a 2008 swing; fix it. Lucian James
While I normally disagree with large nullsec entities, I have to agree with Lucian. I have been caught many times in low sec by instalocking hics with focused scripts, but I find it annoying at best.
Calling bullshit on the people that say they bring HICs to their kite fleet comps, because HICs are slow compared to their t1 variants, and slowing down targets that are chasing you is not the point of a kite fleet, since it can reduce missile damage with the reduction of sig that happens when MWD turns off.
The only thing here that's being nerfed is the anti-kiting arsenal which is basically just HICs and gallente tech 2 ewar ships - and maybe mordus ships, but their range isn't as good. As someone listed earlier.
There are other ways to nerf HICs other than removing an entire portion of a very niche ship job. You can add the movement changes from having bubbles up to the focused point, or things like that.
Reduction in range to below the standards set by gallente ships is not a feasible solution. HIC pilots will just switch to the cheaper lachesis and just have a bubbler on field. Because of this, I disagree with the people who say this helps small pvp gangs, because now you have to have two people to do the same job that one person could have done in a HIC. This benefits large gangs with lots of people to fill roles while small gangs with limited people may not be able to fill those roles while maintaining an ample amount of dps in the fleet.
This will remove long scrams from every race except the Gallente Federation's EWAR ships - which already have competing mid slots for sensor damps (The new ECM) and tank (because who flies armor kite, be real).
In conclusion, this change will remove hics from the small gang arsenal but make very little change to the arsenal of large groups that can work around the change by adding more people in more specialized ships to do the job. Only those with access to Gallente tech 2 ships will be able to have comparable scrambling ranges at the cost of tank and dps (when compared to HICs). This will not change the status quo for large gangs.
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Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
49
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 21:05:45 -
[264] - Quote
Na'av wrote:Calling bullshit on the people that say they bring HICs to their kite fleet comps
So keep calling it bullshit, it won't make it less true.
Na'av wrote:ecause HICs are slow compared to their t1 variants
Roamers are undocking with oracles / BNIs / HFIs / Faction battleships everydays and you believe we can't make up a nano HIC fit ? Do you play this game ?
Na'av wrote:and slowing down targets that are chasing you is not the point of a kite fleet
What ? Have you ever kited ? Screening everything mwd fitted in a 39,4km radius around your fleet is Golden. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
814
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 21:08:50 -
[265] - Quote
Solaris Vex wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Doesn't matter if most people didn't have the max range, before this you still easily got a significantly higher Scram range with a HIC than you could with a focused EWar ship and a load more tank and gank in the bundle.
No hic has good damage relative to its price. Tank and scram range were the hics selling points. They don't have the range, speed, or damage projection of on othrus, and neither the orthrus or hics could point as far as a Lach. These were well balanced stats that gave each ship a role, but after these changes the Lach can point AND scram farther then a hic.
As far as dps goes, most solo/small gang HICS can do 450-500+ dps. The devoter with heavy beams was especially potent and it could still fit a singe rep to tank 500dps (which is easy when youre at 37km and very little can project that far, except rlml). For perspective, those HICs are doing HAC level dps, with 37km scrams and very managable tanks with no downside.
As far as the "solo kite community" from your previous comment, your ignorance is showing, HICs didnt hurt orthrus, they nuked brawly battleships/battlecruisers as it nullified their main utility, the MJD. As well as placing them outside the range of secondary utility, heavy neuts.
But keep thinking this is all because "kiters" were complaining about HICs. Ironic that people like you ***** and claim kiters are taking away your uber scram, when you yourselves were kiting outside any reasonable range to counter.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
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Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
49
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 21:18:11 -
[266] - Quote
Solaris Vex wrote: Hmm a phobos with no rep and minimal buffer. Any ship with a rep and decent damage at 37km would outlast this quite easily. A Gila would be cheaper and stronger.
Comparing a gila to a phobos :ok_hand:
Will you realise at some point how dumb and ignorant you are about this game ? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2811
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 21:28:17 -
[267] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Solaris Vex wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Doesn't matter if most people didn't have the max range, before this you still easily got a significantly higher Scram range with a HIC than you could with a focused EWar ship and a load more tank and gank in the bundle.
No hic has good damage relative to its price. Tank and scram range were the hics selling points. They don't have the range, speed, or damage projection of on othrus, and neither the orthrus or hics could point as far as a Lach. These were well balanced stats that gave each ship a role, but after these changes the Lach can point AND scram farther then a hic. As far as dps goes, most solo/small gang HICS can do 450-500+ dps. The devoter with heavy beams was especially potent and it could still fit a singe rep to tank 500dps (which is easy when youre at 37km and very little can project that far, except rlml). For perspective, those HICs are doing HAC level dps, with 37km scrams and very managable tanks with no downside. As far as the "solo kite community" from your previous comment, your ignorance is showing, HICs didnt hurt orthrus, they nuked brawly battleships/battlecruisers as it nullified their main utility, the MJD. As well as placing them outside the range of secondary utility, heavy neuts. But keep thinking this is all because "kiters" were complaining about HICs. Ironic that people like you ***** and claim kiters are taking away your uber scram, when you yourselves were kiting outside any reasonable range to counter.
Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
135
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 21:44:41 -
[268] - Quote
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:Na'av wrote:Calling bullshit on the people that say they bring HICs to their kite fleet comps
So keep calling it bullshit, it won't make it less true. Na'av wrote:ecause HICs are slow compared to their t1 variants
Roamers are undocking with oracles / BNIs / HFIs / Faction battleships / Command ships everydays and you believe we can't make up a nano HIC fit ? Do you play this game ? Na'av wrote:and slowing down targets that are chasing you is not the point of a kite fleet
What ? Have you ever kited ? Screening everything mwd fitted in a 39,4km radius around your fleet is Golden.
I have a pretty high opinion about you guys and your experience when it comes for small warfare stuff so I am still hoping to get some solid arguments out of your group to support the nerf but until now I haven-¦t seen much that is really convincing and I slowly start disliking to be the one who is arguing against the nerf. So please, get some proper arguments to together. :)
You can screen your fleet yes, against one ship or how many HICs do you guys bring? Maybe two if you fit 2 focus points. For the sake of it, you can even fit more but from the fits posted it-¦s pretty much just one point. So yeah, you can screen against on single ship. What-¦s the benefit of that please? You can simply shoot stuff to bits when they come close, guessing you engage standing fleets 7/10 times. Damage projection above 37.5 km, that-¦s the max range for HICs is no biggie either. You mentioned Oracles already. One or two Oracles to support your fleet will go to town with anything "engageable" and since you won-¦t engage s similar skilled/equipped gang outside of arranged fights/tournaments there is no problem. Last but not least, if you engage with brawlers you bring them in and kill ****. There is no need for a HIC to pin a brawler down/disable it-¦s MJD/MWD. Once you commit you-¦re pretty much done for except you kill all their small **** and somehow manage to get out but the HIC will be the least of your problems. ECM frigs and tons of Alphas in suicide tackle is what keeps you on grid as a brawler. Every single nano cruiser I have is either in range of linked and/or heated scrams anyway so a HIC won-¦t change **** or can project further than 37.5km so the HIC won-¦t change ****.
|
Cade Windstalker
903
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 22:04:51 -
[269] - Quote
Solaris Vex wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Doesn't matter if most people didn't have the max range, before this you still easily got a significantly higher Scram range with a HIC than you could with a focused EWar ship and a load more tank and gank in the bundle.
No hic has good damage relative to its price. Tank and scram range were the hics selling points. They don't have the range, speed, or damage projection of on othrus, and neither the orthrus or hics could point as far as a Lach. These were well balanced stats that gave each ship a role, but after these changes the Lach can point AND scram farther then a hic.
I didn't say a HIC had good DPS relative to its price, or even good DPS for its hull class, I just said that any HIC still has better tank and gank than a Gallente Recon.
Quote:after these changes the Lach can point AND scram farther then a hic.
Gee, it's almost like that's what the Ship is bonused for and should be able to do. HICs have bubbles, better tank, better DPS, and are basically the only ship that can tackle Supers, and laugh at Scrams. I think the Gallente Recons deserve to be able to claw one back, because while long points aren't bad there's a reason you don't see many gangs running a Lachesis but you see a fair number of HICs. |
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
8
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 22:42:39 -
[270] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger. Ok. Nomen and Tengu are cancer now. New.
I don't really understand why you need a 40km scram. Bring Keres and Orthrus too. Finally it's more a nerf for the kiters who use HIC, cause they know how to play those ships more than blobers or whatever. |
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Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
49
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 22:53:26 -
[271] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:I have a pretty high opinion about you guys and your experience when it comes for small warfare stuff
first thing first i don't speak speak as a We Form V0LTA member, just as a roamer (i'm not even in Thera ))) )
Trajan Unknown wrote:You can screen your fleet yes, against one ship or how many HICs do you guys bring? Maybe two if you fit 2 focus points. For the sake of it, you can even fit more but from the fits posted it-¦s pretty much just one point. So yeah, you can screen against on single ship. What-¦s the benefit of that please? You can simply shoot stuff to bits when they come close, guessing you engage standing fleets 7/10 times.
Screening is needed when your fleet pull range, you don't need to hold the same inty for 60 sec, your goal is to cycle once to reduce as much as possible the number on inties / small ships / cruisers that can get in the "danger zone". So yeah you tap your scrambl at anything burning at you, cutting their MWD is enought for blapping them on the way;
Trajan Unknown wrote: and since you won-¦t engage s similar skilled/equipped gang outside of arranged fights/tournaments there is no problem*
HIC is another tool to give us possibilites to counter another nano gang.
[quote=Trajan Unknown can project further than 37.5km so the HIC won-¦t change ****. [/quote]
Do you realize that anyone who were seriously roaming stopped to play anything that couldn't apply DPS above 40km ? Because of the very same HIC change ?
And slowly but surely anyone adapted the same way ? Like... You |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
135
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:07:27 -
[272] - Quote
Well, to be honest I never adapted to HICs at all. I never saw them as a serious treat outside of gatecamps because I seriously barely see them out there. The exception is fleets. I didn-¦t see a single fleet with at least 2 HICs but that-¦s a different thing. They are perfect platforms for cynos, have the focus point and are tanky enough to survive or well, have a chance at least.
The screening part is something I understand but I-¦d take an Arazu over the HIC for the exact same reason or simply blap the incoming tackle. With heat - if memory serves and my math is not completely ****** - you have four (4) seconds of cycle time. So you engage something, run away and what? You can scram/screen a single incoming tackler every four (4) seconds out to 37.5 km. On something that will be the slowest/closest ship to the enemy. I personally won-¦t risk a HIC in such a situation because they are actually expensive to lose to some stupid response/standing fleet. And again, I haven-¦t seen a single gang out there using a HIC as their default tool. In most cases the recons are so much better but most people simply use flocks of ecm frigs, bring a couple falcons or go full kite with Huggins. But I am totally open to any data that shows me how wrong I was and I-¦ll gladly take my seat and join team:******. :)
Quote:first thing first i don't speak speak as a We Form V0LTA member, just as a roamer (i'm not even in Thera ))) )
I didn-¦t assumed you were speaking for Volta. I am just speaking for myself too. :) |
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:17:14 -
[273] - Quote
So what you are saying is that the 1 ship that can counter small gang and solo nano roamers is to be nerfed so the small gang nano solo pvper dont have a hard counter
this is really daft and not needed
look at the kill boards moron larken how many hic' kills are there on nano ship not many
now compare how mant kills small gang nano roamers get ...millions
so the 1 ship that is a good conter but not always sucessful anainst nano roamer is nefrt to hell which affects its roll in many other situations like the rule it is used most for now as a anti boosher on larger fleets that has the tank but if the script is used cannot be repped become useless.
lets look at the hic's since you changed the capitail mchanics they are not as usefull as they were before becase they are not need to catch caps any more
the ship is very skill intensive and take a very long time to train into fully and the 1 thing it is still good for you are nerfing
larkin there is no logic to this change and apart from the odd kill of the odd nano solo roamer the nerf is completly unjustified in any way shape or form stop listening to a few people who hate getting caught once in a while to a ship that is desinged to do exactly what it is supposed to do .
nerf this ship larkin and you will prove to the eve coumity you have no idea what you are doing even more than we think it now |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
49
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:27:39 -
[274] - Quote
clipper shore wrote: look at the kill boards moron larken how many hic' kills are there on nano ship not many
now compare how mant kills small gang nano roamers get ...millions
Let's compare 4 ships to hundreads. weeeeeeh |
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:29:59 -
[275] - Quote
just trying to make the point that it is rare to meet a hic if you are solo roaming
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clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:40:16 -
[276] - Quote
its like taking the situation that meeting a orth its too op and we need to nerf it because the ship i fly always gets beaten by it
this argument is stupid
hic are a good counter to nano players.... good ... so nanoplayers have a hard counter
larkin you have listened to 1 guy with a self serving agenda that doesn't like 1 sip in the game that does exactly was it is designed to doto nerf it so he has even less things to cosider when he is out doing hid nano thing where he can always dictate the terms of the fight or run away ..... the 1 ship that can counter his playstyle gets nerfed
no skill in that its will be stupid to even ebtertain the idea of introducing this nerf |
Cade Windstalker
904
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:42:55 -
[277] - Quote
clipper shore wrote:So what you are saying is that the 1 ship that can counter small gang and solo nano roamers is to be nerfed so the small gang nano solo pvper dont have a hard counter
Maybe try bringing a Gallente EWar ship? |
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:45:44 -
[278] - Quote
omg and again another guy who misses the point
|
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 23:48:12 -
[279] - Quote
i'mafraid you cannot counter small gangs or a solo orth in a galente ewar ship unless you have a full support fleet with you
again you miss my point |
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
227
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 00:18:13 -
[280] - Quote
clipper shore wrote:1 guy with a self serving agenda that doesn't like 1 sip I don't like just one sip either, I prefer drinking the whole glass
01d Man wrote:This was a valid change 2 years ago but not in the current meta
Yeah I am sure you would have embraces a hic nerf 2 years ago cause their dank scram were so oppressive in the early 2015.
Can you enligh us more with your pvp meta knowledge ? |
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2814
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 00:23:16 -
[281] - Quote
Captain jdd wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger. Ok. Nomen and Tengu are cancer now. New. I don't really understand why you need a 40km scram. Bring Keres and Orthrus too. Finally it's more a nerf for the kiters who use HIC, cause they know how to play those ships more than blobers or whatever.
So you are admitting that the Keres and Orthrus are overpowered? Thanks. When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
739
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 01:19:05 -
[282] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument.
^^ This.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
|
Na'av
Biomass Party All Paths Lead to Anoikis
9
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 02:41:26 -
[283] - Quote
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:Na'av wrote:Calling bullshit on the people that say they bring HICs to their kite fleet comps
So keep calling it bullshit, it won't make it less true. Na'av wrote:ecause HICs are slow compared to their t1 variants
Roamers are undocking with oracles / BNIs / HFIs / Faction battleships / Command ships everydays and you believe we can't make up a nano HIC fit ? Do you play this game ? Na'av wrote:and slowing down targets that are chasing you is not the point of a kite fleet
What ? Have you ever kited ? Screening everything mwd fitted in a 39,4km radius around your fleet is Golden.
I have a nano shield phobos with 600dps rails in a station somewhere. I don't fly it because the orthrus is better for the job of pointing things. Having that sig bloom from MWD is pretty important for missile application and turret tracking. |
Twilight Mourning
Suddenly Corporation. Suddenly Spaceships.
5
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 02:42:41 -
[284] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument. ^^ This.
We have a winner! |
Twilight Mourning
Suddenly Corporation. Suddenly Spaceships.
5
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 02:44:13 -
[285] - Quote
Na'av wrote:Daide Vondrichnov wrote:Na'av wrote:Calling bullshit on the people that say they bring HICs to their kite fleet comps
So keep calling it bullshit, it won't make it less true. Na'av wrote:ecause HICs are slow compared to their t1 variants
Roamers are undocking with oracles / BNIs / HFIs / Faction battleships / Command ships everydays and you believe we can't make up a nano HIC fit ? Do you play this game ? Na'av wrote:and slowing down targets that are chasing you is not the point of a kite fleet
What ? Have you ever kited ? Screening everything mwd fitted in a 39,4km radius around your fleet is Golden. I have a nano shield phobos with 600dps rails in a station somewhere. I don't fly it because the orthrus is better for the job of pointing things. Having that sig bloom from MWD is pretty important for missile application and turret tracking.
No you don't. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3831
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 03:21:00 -
[286] - Quote
really i do love all the people claiming this is going to kill small gangs some how. as if they only became possible when the hic was given a scram
BLOPS Hauler
|
Cade Windstalker
910
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 03:40:50 -
[287] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Captain jdd wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger. Ok. Nomen and Tengu are cancer now. New. I don't really understand why you need a 40km scram. Bring Keres and Orthrus too. Finally it's more a nerf for the kiters who use HIC, cause they know how to play those ships more than blobers or whatever. So you are admitting that the Keres and Orthrus are overpowered? Thanks. When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument. For the record, I like the Keres. It is a great ship. The Orthrus is also a fine ship. I just like to see more viable counters. I think all warp disruptor and warp scrambler ranges need to be increased.
So, I think the underlying assumption here may be faulty, which is that the idea behind this change is to nerf anything other than the HIC. I think CCP are changing this simply because HICs as a class are basically totally eclipsing dedicated EWar platforms. Hence leaving the HIC with a Scram option, rather than simply reverting the old change, but shrinking the range in under that of a scram-range bonused ship.
In short, this doesn't feel like the nano-gang nerf people seem to be thinking of it as, so saying "but these ships are the problem!" is assuming CCP sees this as a problem in the first place, or at least is trying to change that at all with this change. |
Twilight Mourning
Suddenly Corporation. Suddenly Spaceships.
5
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 03:46:55 -
[288] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Captain jdd wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger. Ok. Nomen and Tengu are cancer now. New. I don't really understand why you need a 40km scram. Bring Keres and Orthrus too. Finally it's more a nerf for the kiters who use HIC, cause they know how to play those ships more than blobers or whatever. So you are admitting that the Keres and Orthrus are overpowered? Thanks. When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument. For the record, I like the Keres. It is a great ship. The Orthrus is also a fine ship. I just like to see more viable counters. I think all warp disruptor and warp scrambler ranges need to be increased. So, I think the underlying assumption here may be faulty, which is that the idea behind this change is to nerf anything other than the HIC. I think CCP are changing this simply because HICs as a class are basically totally eclipsing dedicated EWar platforms. Hence leaving the HIC with a Scram option, rather than simply reverting the old change, but shrinking the range in under that of a scram-range bonused ship. In short, this doesn't feel like the nano-gang nerf people seem to be thinking of it as, so saying "but these ships are the problem!" is assuming CCP sees this as a problem in the first place, or at least is trying to change that at all with this change.
It's not a nano-gang nerf. It's a nano-gang buff. They are removing one of the few viable counters to nano-gangs. If the Lach could scram out to that range it would be one thing. But it can't. They are removing the only ship that can do that on it's own. Lach can get, at max, 35.5k with heat and links. (That's top faction scram) The HIC can get 39.5k scram without needing the help of a command ship. So, they are not just removing the only counter to nano that goes to that range but they Lach Arazu won't even fill the gap as they CAN'T scram to that range. Making nano that much more invulnerable to any other fleet but nano. |
Cade Windstalker
910
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 04:22:20 -
[289] - Quote
Twilight Mourning wrote:It's not a nano-gang nerf. It's a nano-gang buff. They are removing one of the few viable counters to nano-gangs. If the Lach could scram out to that range it would be one thing. But it can't. They are removing the only ship that can do that on it's own. Lach can get, at max, 35.5k with heat and links. (That's top faction scram) The HIC can get 39.5k scram without needing the help of a command ship. So, they are not just removing the only counter to nano that goes to that range but they Lach Arazu won't even fill the gap as they CAN'T scram to that range. Making nano that much more invulnerable to any other fleet but nano.
The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km.
If this causes some massive shift in the Meta, other than away from HICs, then by all means I hope CCP buff the Gallente EWar ships, but after 15 pages of this the only thing anyone's been able to say on this is that it's going to make this less powerful, it's not going to change the fact that nano vs nano is the meta *currently* and it's not going to do more than slightly weaken this scram-tapping strategy. It's not removing it, and it's not massively changing the meta, it's just making people use EWar cruisers and frigs instead of HICs. |
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF
9
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 04:30:21 -
[290] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km. I beg to disagree. Pulse lasers can easily go to 34km. A Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and one tracking computer has an optimal of 31.7km and falloff of 42km with Scorch, and a Legion can easily surpass that without any tracking computers. A fairly standard Omen Navy Issue fit has 46km optimal with Scorch. |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3832
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 05:35:59 -
[291] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km. I beg to differ. Pulse lasers can easily go to 35km. A Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and one tracking computer has an optimal of 31.7km and falloff of 42km with Scorch, and a Legion can easily surpass that without any tracking computers. A fairly standard Omen Navy Issue fit with locus coordinators has 46km optimal with Scorch.
the ships that use these are also slower....
BLOPS Hauler
|
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF
9
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 07:10:56 -
[292] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Kagi Anzomi wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km. I beg to differ. Pulse lasers can easily go to 35km. A Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and one tracking computer has an optimal of 31.7km and falloff of 42km with Scorch, and a Legion can easily surpass that without any tracking computers. A fairly standard Omen Navy Issue fit with locus coordinators has 46km optimal with Scorch. the ships that use these are also slower.... Except for the Omen Navy Issue I'll give you that one. That's kind of a moot point though since we've already established that HICs are also slower than the kitey ships they're used against. I hate kiting, but I also have a 100MN Legion that can go 2300m/s cold or 3400m/s heated and can heat for quite a long time. |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
52
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 08:13:21 -
[293] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote: That's kind of a moot point though since we've already established that HICs are also slower than the kitey ships they're used against
If only HICs could warp to pings... Oh wait.
Kagi Anzomi wrote: hate kiting, but I also have a 100MN Legion that can go 2300m/s cold or 3400m/s heated and can heat for quite a long time
So you hate kiting but you bought a kiting ship... what ? |
Mira Chieve
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
33
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 08:15:14 -
[294] - Quote
[quote=Trajan Unknown]Well, to be honest I never adapted to HICs at all. I never saw them as a serious treat outside of gatecamps because I seriously barely see them out there.
Weird, my experience is that every time I undock a Nanotempest / Nano BC a HIC shows up within the next 10 minutes to screw me over. |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
129
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 09:19:21 -
[295] - Quote
Too many ppl to quote, so i wont.
To yall concidering why we kiters dont use lach instead of hic:
Is a complicated reason. First off the simple stuff. While hic mobility is lower than lach, it still is easily good enough. Especially on the era without off grid boosts. Also a hic is tanky. Even the kitey devoter with single resist and single rep is tanky. Thirdly it has deeps. 400-600 dps. In a ship that is tanky, mobile, has awesome utility. Choosing a lach would mean i need second ship to do the deeps and/or antitackle, thus enlargening my gang and thus making finding fights even harder it already is.
We eve players have become so retardedly risk averse fucks that is not fun no more. I bet 90% of ppl in this discussion have never taken a hic outside dockingrange of a station. Nullbears loathe kiters and kiters loathe nullbears. Why would a kiting fleet want tous brawl in the undock? Why would a brawler want to follow the kiter? Ofc not.
The 40km scram on a hic was way too overpowered. Many of ya nullbears hate this change beacause it takes away security from you. Many of us kiters hate this change beacause it takes away security from us. And many of each groups members seems to be unable to understand the opposing groups thoughts.
I support this change beacause i have personally been involved in the rude abusing of this ship classes overpowered capabilities. Once again:
-any frig outside keres/maulus has been totally unable to tackle a hic -not any one shipclass should be able to fullfill so many different roles with such ease -while diversity is good, too broad and too specialized diversity is bad -40km scram, while good tool- should not be possible without pimping, links and overheat. It just is too powerfull tool otherwise. -broad(more range to weapons) phobos(dronebay) should get some love
Also ya'll saying there is no hics around: oh, but there are. They wont show up on ZKB due to kiting ppl avoiding them like plague and kiters not killing gamewide enough ppl to actually get on top10's. |
Na'av
Biomass Party All Paths Lead to Anoikis
9
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 10:45:42 -
[296] - Quote
Twilight Mourning wrote: No you don't.
No YOU don't.
Any more relevant thoughts mister naysayer? |
Ramses Davaham
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 11:09:14 -
[297] - Quote
Stupid Question maybe? - Tried to see if someone asked this or not in this threadnaught.
Does the Script still "perma-scram/disrupt" (as in break warp-stab/interdiction nullifiers) ? Like in high sec for example.
In other words....as its a "focused" script....you lock a ship..and it don't matter if it can nullify or warp stab you back....your scrammed.
Still getting a handle on mechanics.
Thx
o7 |
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
229
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 11:48:45 -
[298] - Quote
Ramses Davaham wrote:Stupid Question maybe? - Tried to see if someone asked this or not in this threadnaught.
Does the Script still "perma-scram/disrupt" (as in break warp-stab/interdiction nullifiers) ? Like in high sec for example.
In other words....as its a "focused" script....you lock a ship..and it don't matter if it can nullify or warp stab you back....your scrammed.
Still getting a handle on mechanics.
Thx
o7
From what I've understood, the 40km script will still have an infinite point strenght but won't cut off mwds
|
Ramses Davaham
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 12:07:20 -
[299] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:Ramses Davaham wrote:Stupid Question maybe? - Tried to see if someone asked this or not in this threadnaught.
Does the Script still "perma-scram/disrupt" (as in break warp-stab/interdiction nullifiers) ? Like in high sec for example.
In other words....as its a "focused" script....you lock a ship..and it don't matter if it can nullify or warp stab you back....your scrammed.
Still getting a handle on mechanics.
Thx
o7 From what I've understood, the 40km script will still have an infinite point strenght but won't cut off mwds
"Just" the 40KM script? That disrupt AND scram? Thx |
Lukka
13
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 12:09:34 -
[300] - Quote
That's a -40% range bonus. (21/35) (x100%).
Seems extreme to me for a ship class which was hardly over-used. It further plays into the fast (uncatchable) ship meta which predominates small gang warfare and makes the heavy interdictors class effectively useless outside of supercap tackle again.
Why this change is unfavourable:
1. Serves to further restrict small gang ship and meta choices. 2. Makes heavy interdictors effectively useless outside of supercapital tackle. 3. Restricts viable fitting options to passive tank dual tackle script for reason 2, above. 4. No rationale is provided for the change beyond an anecdote for which no evidence is given. |
|
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
130
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 12:42:52 -
[301] - Quote
Lukka wrote:That's a -40% range bonus. (21/35) (x100%).
Seems extreme to me for a ship class which was hardly over-used. It further plays into the fast (uncatchable) ship meta which predominates small gang warfare and makes the heavy interdictors class effectively useless outside of supercap tackle again.
Why this change is unfavourable:
1. Serves to further restrict small gang ship and meta choices. 2. Makes heavy interdictors effectively useless outside of supercapital tackle. 3. Restricts viable fitting options to passive tank dual tackle script for reason 2, above. 4. No rationale is provided for the change beyond an anecdote for which no evidence is given.
The -20% bonus to range is from a unscripted WDFG, not scripted. The focused script we now have has a rangebonus of +50% and now we get the scramblescript with bonus of -20% |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
138
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 12:56:48 -
[302] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:Too many ppl to quote, so i wont.
To yall concidering why we kiters dont use lach instead of hic:
Is a complicated reason. First off the simple stuff. While hic mobility is lower than lach, it still is easily good enough. Especially on the era without off grid boosts. Also a hic is tanky. Even the kitey devoter with single resist and single rep is tanky. Thirdly it has deeps. 400-600 dps. In a ship that is tanky, mobile, has awesome utility. Choosing a lach would mean i need second ship to do the deeps and/or antitackle, thus enlargening my gang and thus making finding fights even harder it already is.
We eve players have become so retardedly risk averse fucks that is not fun no more. I bet 90% of ppl in this discussion have never taken a hic outside dockingrange of a station. Nullbears loathe kiters and kiters loathe nullbears. Why would a kiting fleet want tous brawl in the undock? Why would a brawler want to follow the kiter? Ofc not.
The 40km scram on a hic was way too overpowered. Many of ya nullbears hate this change beacause it takes away security from you. Many of us kiters hate this change beacause it takes away security from us. And many of each groups members seems to be unable to understand the opposing groups thoughts.
I support this change beacause i have personally been involved in the rude abusing of this ship classes overpowered capabilities. Once again:
-any frig outside keres/maulus has been totally unable to tackle a hic -not any one shipclass should be able to fullfill so many different roles with such ease -while diversity is good, too broad and too specialized diversity is bad -40km scram, while good tool- should not be possible without pimping, links and overheat. It just is too powerfull tool otherwise. -broad(more range to weapons) phobos(dronebay) should get some love
Also ya'll saying there is no hics around: oh, but there are. They wont show up on ZKB due to kiting ppl avoiding them like plague and kiters not killing gamewide enough ppl to actually get on top10's.
Had to quote you, because there is some stuff to address but one thing first.
Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :) My Arazu/Lachscram goes up to 30.5 for the record. Plus dampener I am pretty much in the same boat as a HIC without being a clunky, sluggish hull that will die as soon as we have to run. Cost is the same or even cheaper by a little compared to a HIC. Tank is the same compared to a "fast/nano" HIC and I am way faster and bring more utility to the fleet while rendering any other HIC point useless.
I personally fly all space except hi-sec and I barely see HICs out there. It has nothing to do with killboard stats or alike they are not out there when it comes to small gangs. You find them in gatecamp compostions, on stations and in "real" fleets. But you will not see many of them in small gangs. If you see them out there, let me know, I am eager to find me some HICs outside of fleet fights, gatecamps and station games.
|
Grookshank
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
130
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 13:11:10 -
[303] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :) There are faction modules in the game.
|
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
229
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 13:21:58 -
[304] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote: I personally fly all space except hi-sec and I barely see HICs out there. It has nothing to do with killboard stats or alike they are not out there when it comes to small gangs. You find them in gatecamp compostions, on stations and in "real" fleets. But you will not see many of them in small gangs. If you see them out there, let me know, I am eager to find me some HICs outside of fleet fights, gatecamps and station games.
There is a hic there(we blob them quite hard but still, this is a hic): https://zkillboard.com/br/88530/
There is also a hic there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtmvlpOPb6Q&t=482s?t=19m34s
And Also there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMQ-i_cwtOw
And there too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eCmo-S_gaM
Here also: https://zkillboard.com/br/88531/ (quite gay tbh)
There are many more examples but most of the time, a Hic make a gang just unengageable so there is no record of these cases |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
138
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 13:26:41 -
[305] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :) There are faction modules in the game.
So what? You wanna tell me that people use ******* faction WDFGs now? I guess the hi-sec people who camp stations/gates all the time do so. You won-¦t see them in zero-zero/low-sec except for some ****** maybe. Who in his right mind ******* fits a module that increased the price by a lot for 2.3km? That-¦s bollocks but ok, I gladly take any pointers towards small gang people who are using these modules. Else I call it bullshit like so many other statements here that never got backed up at all. It-¦s hard enough to accept the 37.5km range because most fits use pitfalls because of the better fitting and maybe because most people don-¦t train GP to V.
You-¦re trying to troll me with that right? |
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
229
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 13:34:06 -
[306] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:You-¦re trying to troll me with that right?
I'm trying to get views on my youtube channel :p |
Twilight Mourning
Suddenly Corporation. Suddenly Spaceships.
8
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 13:45:04 -
[307] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:You-¦re trying to troll me with that right? I'm trying to get views on my youtube channel :p
I don't think anyone here is that desperate. |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
138
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 13:57:28 -
[308] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:You-¦re trying to troll me with that right? I'm trying to get views on my youtube channel :p
If you have good stuff I-¦ll give it a shot. Always nice to watch some well recorded/edited vids. :) |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
131
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 16:49:58 -
[309] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Grookshank wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :) There are faction modules in the game. So what? You wanna tell me that people use ******* faction WDFGs now? I guess the hi-sec people who camp stations/gates all the time do so. You won-¦t see them in zero-zero/low-sec except for some ****** maybe. Who in his right mind ******* fits a module that increased the price by a lot for 2.3km? That-¦s bollocks but ok, I gladly take any pointers towards small gang people who are using these modules. Else I call it bullshit like so many other statements here that never got backed up at all. It-¦s hard enough to accept the 37.5km range because most fits use pitfalls because of the better fitting and maybe because most people don-¦t train GP to V.
I do. There are a LOT of us, to whom isk is not a issue. And that 2.3km is actually quite a lot. as we just have been discussing the length of different bonused ship scrams, the longest scram always wins, so that 2.3km is quite a bit. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Badfellas Inc.
343
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 16:55:45 -
[310] - Quote
I always use Faction scram on my hic, the extra range isnt the only benefit... the bubble up speed improvement is insane on a faction hic. instead of the usualy 300/400m/s my onyx can maintain 1000m/s with TS bubble up. |
|
Cade Windstalker
914
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 18:15:36 -
[311] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:I beg to differ. Pulse lasers can easily go to 35km. A Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and one tracking computer has an optimal of 31.7km and falloff of 42km with Scorch, and a Legion can easily surpass that without any tracking computers. A fairly standard Omen Navy Issue fit with locus coordinators has 46km optimal with Scorch.
Pulse are the exception, not the rule, and that only works on a range bonused ship with a fit to match and you're *still* not getting DPS equal to an actual long range medium weapons system. That same Harby with Beams hits out further and harder than your Pulse Harby does.
Also none of this actually refutes my *actual* point, which was that this isn't going to significantly change the meta beyond a general move away from HICs as range control. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
815
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 18:30:27 -
[312] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:Grookshank wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :) There are faction modules in the game. So what? You wanna tell me that people use ******* faction WDFGs now? I guess the hi-sec people who camp stations/gates all the time do so. You won-¦t see them in zero-zero/low-sec except for some ****** maybe. Who in his right mind ******* fits a module that increased the price by a lot for 2.3km? That-¦s bollocks but ok, I gladly take any pointers towards small gang people who are using these modules. Else I call it bullshit like so many other statements here that never got backed up at all. It-¦s hard enough to accept the 37.5km range because most fits use pitfalls because of the better fitting and maybe because most people don-¦t train GP to V. I do. There are a LOT of us, to whom isk is not a issue. And that 2.3km is actually quite a lot. as we just have been discussing the length of different bonused ship scrams, the longest scram always wins, so that 2.3km is quite a bit.
Yeah, idk why he thinks people don't use faction mods. Most people i know who fly solo or small gang HICs will use a faction WDFG. One, they're really not that expensive, unless you're a poor, and 2 that extra range is pretty big.
So its quite fair for people to quote the 40km scram range as realistic. Most high end pvp corps aren't exactly lacking in isk.
FT Diomedes wrote:Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger.
I don't see a reason why you NEED 30-40km scram on a ship, plus 100k+ EHP. Why can't you bring a huginn+keres/arazu to catch kiters? I've fought you guys a lot, you're not exactly lacking on guys to put in ships. HIC's were primarily used to capture capitals, hence the need for the EHP to tank them. Why do you NEED that high range of a scram, and EHP, and being outside of reasonable counter ranges for things like heavy neuts to kill a battleship, or battlecruiser?
Just so you can say its good for killing an orthrus? Which is the one ship that is largely not affected by HICs, assuming the pilot isn't dumb and rams the HIC or gets under 40km (which it never should as RLML spam and long point range are outside HIC's range). Why could you not use a huginn or other EWAR ship to catch kiters, like has been successful in the past before HIC changes?
Everyone tells me, EVE isn't a solo game, so when I fly a solo battleship and die. I'll get the "well battleships were never meant to solo, you shouldn't expect to do all the things with one ship, you need support". So i'll fire that right back at the HIC apologists, you can't have your web and scram ship integrated completely into 1 ship, you should bring a coordinated gang that has both a web and scram ship.
What i'm seeing is that people are resistant to going back to how it used to be. Having 1 long range web ship and 1 long range tackle ship, because with how HIC's currently are, you don't need a Huginn/Rapier anymore, just long range scram everything with a HIC, so now you can throw in more dps or support ships.
If you say "well people will just run when they see a huginn/rapier etc", then i'll counter and say, HIC's aren't completely defanged, spread 2-3 of them on exit gate, and you should (in theory, and depending on gate) have complete coverage over that gate for scrams, just like you do now. However, it means you'll need to sit 2-3 ppl in HIC's, instead of just 1 person. Something most bigger alliances or corps shouldn't have any issue with. A well composed gang will still kill kiters all the same, its the ones that have been relying on a single ship with an IWIN button that are crying the loudest about these things, as now, they will need skill and better gang compositions to succeed in the same role.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
|
Captain jdd
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
8
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 21:31:19 -
[313] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:So you are admitting that the Keres and Orthrus are overpowered? Thanks. When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument. Absolutely not. You just said that they are OP. Then I recommend you to fly them too.
All ships are strong (or almost) when they are well employed. |
Ion Nizer
Guardians of the Gate I Aim To Misbehave
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 21:51:11 -
[314] - Quote
So the scripted scram point range is nerfed below what many other ships can do. Ok.
But all the negatives to balance the former range are going to remain?
If you are going to make this change, let scripted HICs receive reps, overheat and get bonuses.
How about make the scram prevent gate jumps for subcaps?
You can't remove a bonus and not touch all the negatives that only existed because of that now missing bonus.
That at least feels like balancing, rather than a bit from the nerf bat. |
Cade Windstalker
918
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 23:21:48 -
[315] - Quote
Ion Nizer wrote:So the scripted scram point range is nerfed below what many other ships can do. Ok.
But all the negatives to balance the former range are going to remain?
If you are going to make this change, let scripted HICs receive reps, overheat and get bonuses.
How about make the scram prevent gate jumps for subcaps?
You can't remove a bonus and not touch all the negatives that only existed because of that now missing bonus.
That at least feels like balancing, rather than a bit from the nerf bat.
You appear to be misinformed sir.
HICs have never been able to receive reps while running a HIC point, scripted or otherwise. There were no changes made along with the HIC point-scram change of this nature, so there's nothing to revert here.
Oh, double bonus points for CCP calling out that they might do this a year and change ago. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3842
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 01:06:02 -
[316] - Quote
Ion Nizer wrote:So the scripted scram point range is nerfed below what many other ships can do. Ok.
But all the negatives to balance the former range are going to remain?
If you are going to make this change, let scripted HICs receive reps, overheat and get bonuses.
How about make the scram prevent gate jumps for subcaps?
You can't remove a bonus and not touch all the negatives that only existed because of that now missing bonus.
That at least feels like balancing, rather than a bit from the nerf bat.
You mean all the same penalties that were there before the hic could even scram?
Is this thread just full of new Bros or are their memories really this bad
BLOPS Hauler
|
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Reverberation Project
12
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 02:35:14 -
[317] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Ion Nizer wrote:So the scripted scram point range is nerfed below what many other ships can do. Ok.
But all the negatives to balance the former range are going to remain?
If you are going to make this change, let scripted HICs receive reps, overheat and get bonuses.
How about make the scram prevent gate jumps for subcaps?
You can't remove a bonus and not touch all the negatives that only existed because of that now missing bonus.
That at least feels like balancing, rather than a bit from the nerf bat. You mean all the same penalties that were there before the hic could even scram? Is this thread just full of new Bros or are their memories really this bad It's pretty hard to remember how HICs were before that change because you'd only see them tackling supers. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3842
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 02:59:35 -
[318] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:lugh crow-slave wrote:
You mean all the same penalties that were there before the hic could even scram?
Is this thread just full of new Bros or are their memories really this bad
It's pretty hard to remember how HICs were before that change because you'd only see them tackling supers.
not really the long point was still used and their tanks made them great bait when it comes to LS and we used them for null camps all the time. only difference was the Gallente recon and EAF were also viable choices and the more optimal choice if you needed scram over tank. Now you will still have a long scram just not as long of a scram
BLOPS Hauler
|
Cade Windstalker
921
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 04:29:35 -
[319] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:It's pretty hard to remember how HICs were before that change because you'd only see them tackling supers.
This is really not accurate. HICtor camps have been a thing for years, well before the scram-point change. You'd just have another ship along with it to scram the target along with the HICtor to prevent stab-fits from getting away. Go look up insta-lock HICs and you'll find tons of old results. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2825
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 13:34:46 -
[320] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I don't see a reason why you NEED 30-40km scram on a ship, plus 100k+ EHP. Why can't you bring a huginn+keres/arazu to catch kiters? I've fought you guys a lot, you're not exactly lacking on guys to put in ships. HIC's were primarily used to capture capitals, hence the need for the EHP to tank them. Why do you NEED that high range of a scram, and EHP, and being outside of reasonable counter ranges for things like heavy neuts to kill a battleship, or battlecruiser?
Just so you can say its good for killing an orthrus? Which is the one ship that is largely not affected by HICs, assuming the pilot isn't dumb and rams the HIC or gets under 40km (which it never should as RLML spam and long point range are outside HIC's range). Why could you not use a huginn or other EWAR ship to catch kiters, like has been successful in the past before HIC changes?
Everyone tells me, EVE isn't a solo game, so when I fly a solo battleship and die. I'll get the "well battleships were never meant to solo, you shouldn't expect to do all the things with one ship, you need support". So i'll fire that right back at the HIC apologists, you can't have your web and scram ship integrated completely into 1 ship, you should bring a coordinated gang that has both a web and scram ship.
What i'm seeing is that people are resistant to going back to how it used to be. Having 1 long range web ship and 1 long range tackle ship, because with how HIC's currently are, you don't need a Huginn/Rapier anymore, just long range scram everything with a HIC, so now you can throw in more dps or support ships.
If you say "well people will just run when they see a huginn/rapier etc", then i'll counter and say, HIC's aren't completely defanged, spread 2-3 of them on exit gate, and you should (in theory, and depending on gate) have complete coverage over that gate for scrams, just like you do now. However, it means you'll need to sit 2-3 ppl in HIC's, instead of just 1 person. Something most bigger alliances or corps shouldn't have any issue with. A well composed gang will still kill kiters all the same, its the ones that have been relying on a single ship with an IWIN button that are crying the loudest about these things, as now, they will need skill and better gang compositions to succeed in the same role.
Stitch, with the prevalence of Phantasm's and other afterburning ships out there, you need a long range scram and a long range web to counter the kiters. I would be okay with using the Lachesis, if it had a range of 37-40 kilometers on the scram. That is the issue here. The HIC is good because it has enough range that if a kiter screws up and gets near you, it's dead. They typically try to stay around 45km away. Now they have much more margin for error. Against competent people, even a couple of kilometers difference matters (that's why some people use the faction WDFG).
The kiting play style usually has the freedom to pick the fights it wants. That's why people fly it. If a gang comes to visit, we form up a response and see what we get. If we have the composition to beat them, they can typically run away, unless we have the numbers to put a HIC + webs on their possible exit gates. For example, one group came for a roam yesterday with a small Gila gang. A couple of us responded with a couple of small tackle ships and my Onyx. We actually had fewer folks immediately available than they did, but the threat to their ability to run away made them leave. As soon as the Onyx came on d-scan, they ran away, literally crying in local "HIC = no fun." If I had brought a Lachesis, they wouldn't have seen it coming, but then they would have tried to run once they saw it on grid. Or, as soon as they saw a Scimitar on D-Scan. It's very hard to make people fight in this game.
For someone in your position, you'll die just as often if we bring a Lachesis as if we bring a HIC. You are playing a multiplayer game solo. I like you, but I won't balance the game around you. Same goes for Bjorn Bee or some of the other folks who solo roam. We killed Bjorn bee a couple of weeks ago after I locked him down in his Deimos. The amount of crying about HIC's from observers on his stream was apparently epic (I don't typically watch these things, so I am relying on what people tell me). If it hadn't been a HIC, it would have been a Lachesis. And if I thought the opposing ship might be able to kill the Lachesis, we would have had logistics or other electronic warfare support to keep that from happening.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2825
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 13:38:55 -
[321] - Quote
Captain jdd wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:So you are admitting that the Keres and Orthrus are overpowered? Thanks. When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument. Absolutely not. You just said that they are OP. Then I recommend you to fly them too. All ships are strong (or almost) when they are well employed.
By the reasoning of most kiting gangs who come into our space, if I flew them, they would not be well-employed.
If I flew them, then they would be totally OP and I would be a no-skill pilot abusing an overpowered ship.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2825
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 13:47:19 -
[322] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Ugly Eric wrote:Too many ppl to quote, so i wont.
To yall concidering why we kiters dont use lach instead of hic:
Is a complicated reason. First off the simple stuff. While hic mobility is lower than lach, it still is easily good enough. Especially on the era without off grid boosts. Also a hic is tanky. Even the kitey devoter with single resist and single rep is tanky. Thirdly it has deeps. 400-600 dps. In a ship that is tanky, mobile, has awesome utility. Choosing a lach would mean i need second ship to do the deeps and/or antitackle, thus enlargening my gang and thus making finding fights even harder it already is.
We eve players have become so retardedly risk averse fucks that is not fun no more. I bet 90% of ppl in this discussion have never taken a hic outside dockingrange of a station. Nullbears loathe kiters and kiters loathe nullbears. Why would a kiting fleet want tous brawl in the undock? Why would a brawler want to follow the kiter? Ofc not.
The 40km scram on a hic was way too overpowered. Many of ya nullbears hate this change beacause it takes away security from you. Many of us kiters hate this change beacause it takes away security from us. And many of each groups members seems to be unable to understand the opposing groups thoughts.
I support this change beacause i have personally been involved in the rude abusing of this ship classes overpowered capabilities. Once again:
-any frig outside keres/maulus has been totally unable to tackle a hic -not any one shipclass should be able to fullfill so many different roles with such ease -while diversity is good, too broad and too specialized diversity is bad -40km scram, while good tool- should not be possible without pimping, links and overheat. It just is too powerfull tool otherwise. -broad(more range to weapons) phobos(dronebay) should get some love
Also ya'll saying there is no hics around: oh, but there are. They wont show up on ZKB due to kiting ppl avoiding them like plague and kiters not killing gamewide enough ppl to actually get on top10's. Had to quote you, because there is some stuff to address but one thing first. Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :) My Arazu/Lachscram goes up to 30.5 for the record. Plus dampener I am pretty much in the same boat as a HIC without being a clunky, sluggish hull that will die as soon as we have to run. Cost is the same or even cheaper by a little compared to a HIC. Tank is the same compared to a "fast/nano" HIC and I am way faster and bring more utility to the fleet while rendering any other HIC point useless. I personally fly all space except hi-sec and I barely see HICs out there. It has nothing to do with killboard stats or alike they are not out there when it comes to small gangs. You find them in gatecamp compostions, on stations and in "real" fleets. But you will not see many of them in small gangs. If you see them out there, let me know, I am eager to find me some HICs outside of fleet fights, gatecamps and station games.
You are simply wrong on this point. At least where I am at, we fly HIC's a lot. If a nano gang comes to visit, we might field a couple of HIC's and a couple of bonused web ships in a ten-pilot gang (depending on who is online at the time). I've flown almost nothing except HIC's and Dreadnoughts on this character for the past year (I have other alts who fly different ships). I've encouraged everyone who would listen to get an Onyx for small gang fights, because it is just that good. We even toyed around with an Onyx or Devoter fleet doctrine.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2828
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 13:54:25 -
[323] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:Grookshank wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :) There are faction modules in the game. So what? You wanna tell me that people use ******* faction WDFGs now? I guess the hi-sec people who camp stations/gates all the time do so. You won-¦t see them in zero-zero/low-sec except for some ****** maybe. Who in his right mind ******* fits a module that increased the price by a lot for 2.3km? That-¦s bollocks but ok, I gladly take any pointers towards small gang people who are using these modules. Else I call it bullshit like so many other statements here that never got backed up at all. It-¦s hard enough to accept the 37.5km range because most fits use pitfalls because of the better fitting and maybe because most people don-¦t train GP to V. I do. There are a LOT of us, to whom isk is not a issue. And that 2.3km is actually quite a lot. as we just have been discussing the length of different bonused ship scrams, the longest scram always wins, so that 2.3km is quite a bit.
Yes, the extra range makes quite a bit of difference. I usually only use the T2 one for affordability reasons, but I die a little bit inside every time one of my corp mates fails to scram someone because he's using an inferior variant.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
53
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 15:58:58 -
[324] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The kiting play style usually has the freedom to pick the fights it wants. That's why people fly it. If a gang comes to visit, we form up a response and see what we get. If we have the composition to beat them, they can typically run away, unless we have the numbers to put a HIC + webs on their possible exit gates. For example, one group came for a roam yesterday with a small Gila gang. A couple of us responded with a couple of small tackle ships and my Onyx. We actually had fewer folks immediately available than they did, but the threat to their ability to run away made them leave. As soon as the Onyx came on d-scan, they ran away, literally crying in local "HIC = no fun." If I had brought a Lachesis, they wouldn't have seen it coming, but then they would have tried to run once they saw it on grid. Or, as soon as they saw a Scimitar on D-Scan. It's very hard to make people fight in this game.
To their defense, the carrier menace that is implicitly linked to HICs is kinda scary yeah. |
Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
139
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 16:14:28 -
[325] - Quote
Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
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Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
53
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 16:17:41 -
[326] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote: Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
Buy a rorqual )) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3847
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 16:58:49 -
[327] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
BLOPS Hauler
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Trajan Unknown
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
142
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 17:46:30 -
[328] - Quote
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote: Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
Buy a rorqual ))
Nah, I don-¦t need a Rorq to drop on ****. It would also mean I have to train into it on at least one alt and no thanks. :D
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Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
791
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 17:50:46 -
[329] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
What is your entire argument here? Standing fleets will bring more because HICs are broken as ****, easy to use and 1 ship answers to the current meta and they'll feel they'll need more? But you were saying HICs were balanced? :thinking:
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
53
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 17:55:38 -
[330] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Daide Vondrichnov wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote: Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
Buy a rorqual )) Nah, I don-¦t need a Rorq to drop on ****. It would also mean I have to train into it on at least one alt and no thanks. :D
It's a bit off topic, but you've to admit that rorquals are better than BO at everything, insured they just cost a bit more than a BO hull. |
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2831
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 18:30:03 -
[331] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
What is your entire argument here? Standing fleets will bring more because HICs are broken as ****, easy to use and 1 ship answers to the current meta and they'll feel they'll need more? But you were saying HICs were balanced? :thinking:
One ship does not answer to the current meta. That's completely false. You have set up a straw man.
If all I bring is a HIC, the guys with dual propulsion or an oversized afterburner run away laughing at my 2700 m/s overheated, boosted speed (Onyx with C-Type MWD and one Nanofiber). So, I automatically need to bring skirmish boosters and a webbing ship to compete - even with a 37km scram. That assumes I am facing a competent opponent. Against incompetent morons, perhaps I can get away with just a couple of HIC's, but I could use almost any ship to deal with them.
Against the solo-roamers in Battleships and Battlecruisers: I do not rate them as competent opponents. The only thing I am concerned about if I see a solo battleship is whether they are hot drop bait. I don't care how personally skilled they are, or how much bling they have in their ships. They are not competent opponents. Just suicidal. We do not balance the game around solo Battleships and solo Battlecruisers. That would be like balancing the game around suicide ganking.
Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.
I will grant you that HIC's are too good in their current state. They should have a maximum scram range of 27-30km (T2 vs Faction) (without heat - leave heat as it is for WDFG's). The Lachesis and Arazu should have a maximum scram range of 37-40km (depending on warp scrambler meta level and with heat). That leaves a role for HIC's in the small gang meta that makes them a powerful adversary, without stomping all over the Gallente Recon's role. It leaves the Lachesis and Arazu able to more effectively counter the kiting meta of 45km points.
That would encourage roamers to use more Gallente Recons as well, because they would then be powerful enough to considering bringing along on a roam. I do not usually see HIC's brought on roaming gangs, presumably because they are so clumsy and lumbering that they would get caught and die.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
57
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 18:37:03 -
[332] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote: Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.
Tbf; the HIC won't be the most efficient when it comes to burning at a target, people will just pull range as you are approaching.
However the role where it really does shine is when you start pinging on a roaming fleet, you'll just shatter their pack everytimes, and thanks to your tank you'll be able to keep the ships scrambled while waiting for your fleet to back you up, something that arazu / lachesis are less likely to do due to the lower tank and increased price due to Scrambl / disruptors price.
Luckly most of the HICs don't think about it, as a roamer, there is nothing more scarying than a HIC knowing his ****. |
Doddy
Excidium.
963
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 20:19:47 -
[333] - Quote
Oh look, CCP gives in to crybabies again.
Just for once could you show some backbone. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2831
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 20:25:49 -
[334] - Quote
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:FT Diomedes wrote: Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.
Tbf; the HIC won't be the most efficient when it comes to burning at a target, people will just pull range as you are approaching. However the role where it really does shine is when you start pinging on a roaming fleet, you'll just shatter their pack everytimes, and thanks to your tank you'll be able to keep the ships scrambled while waiting for your fleet to back you up, something that arazu / lachesis are less likely to do due to the lower tank and increased price due to Scrambl / disruptors price Luckly most of the HICs don't think about it, as a roamer, there is nothing more scarying than a HIC knowing his ****.
Yes, I have found that HIC's make great secondary tacklers. When we are properly prepared, we have a prober squad warping fast tacklers. The HIC stays aligned until the Interceptors get tackle (ideally a scram), then warps to the fast tacklers before they die. Even though you may trade a couple of Interceptors, you can at least hold them long enough to get some kills. The extra scram range is essential because otherwise the kiters can glide out of range before you get out of warp. This works way better than the tackler zerg rush towards the roamers, which gets you all strung out so that you die sequentially.
Of course, the fact that you know this already simply demonstrates what a weak straw man Suitonia and others have established.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
791
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 20:30:29 -
[335] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:
If all I bring is a HIC, the guys with dual propulsion or an oversized afterburner run away laughing at my 2700 m/s overheated, boosted speed (Onyx with C-Type MWD and one Nanofiber). So, I automatically need to bring skirmish boosters and a webbing ship to compete - even with a 37km scram. That assumes I am facing a competent opponent. Against incompetent morons, perhaps I can get away with just a couple of HIC's, but I could use almost any ship to deal with them.
The reason why people run Dual-Prop or oversized AB is almost entirely due to HICs, and to a lesser extent carriers, which are augmented by HICs. There is a reason why every high-end successful nano group such as Turn Left, Therabois, Method Synergy (Lussy Lous russian dudes) and Micro Gang etc. are posting in this thread. You absolutely have to run Orthrus + Keres, or 100mn AB in the current climate because of HICs. We've been running 100mn AB gangs for the past 2 years and it's getting incredibly stale.
Why do you need a 37km scram vs AB ships anyway? A disruptor does the same thing. The only difference between a Huginn and a HIC, is that a Huginn actually has a fairly reasonable chance of dying if it's caught out of position or too aggressive and also doesn't have a point at the same range too. Lachesis also has similar EHP. Where as a HIC has almost 3x the EHP of most 4-5 slot tanks on Huginn/Lachesis, while being more oppressive and doing more damage than either of them.
The problem with the HIC is that you are combining 3 different roles into 1 ship with battleship EHP. You're combining the Roles of a Sabre, Huginn, Lachesis, giving them better DPS and BS EHP. It's a one stop shop for countering anyone who isn't fit for dealing with HICs. Adding all four of those named ships very often would be better than fighting just a single HIC in a lot of cases for skirmish gangs, because at least they are killable and can be punished if they make an error.
I'm not saying you should balance the game around solo BCs and Battleships, but the problem is that a HIC shuts down all of their utility while also remaining outside heavy neut and grappler range making them able to easily permanently control a BS. With 21km Scrams you at least have to be on the edge of Heavy Neut optimal, and in CR BS gun range. So BS will have more tools to deal with them. They still have more EHP than a battleship so can survive and hold it down long enough to get support, HICs should be support ships, not solo pwn mobiles with BS EHP, Recon Control and HAC DPS.
I know there are many other ships which mean the end for anyone trying to do anything in battleships (Falcon etc.), but those ships have no skirmish control or DPS, and have 1/4th of the EHP of the typical HIC if it fucks up so its way more likely to at least die in a mistake, in a HIC you can be the worst pilot on the planet and still do well, it's the old Svipul.
Quote: Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.
The Competent kiting gangs don't get destroyed by HICs, because they run Orthrus+Keres or 100mn AB. The ships that they absolutely have to fly if they want to play the game. It's a shame that 80% of the ship pool is obsoleted by them, hence this thread.
Defenders already have jump bridges, cyno beacons, capitals. If you have a stronger fleet than the roamers and they want to escape, then you already have tools at your disposal to cut them off. 37.5km scrams just punish anyone not running the meta.
Quote: I will grant you that HIC's are too good in their current state. They should have a maximum scram range of 27-30km (T2 vs Faction) (without heat - leave heat as it is for WDFG's). The Lachesis and Arazu should have a maximum scram range of 37-40km (depending on warp scrambler meta level and with heat). That leaves a role for HIC's in the small gang meta that makes them a powerful adversary, without stomping all over the Gallente Recon's role. It leaves the Lachesis and Arazu able to more effectively counter the kiting meta of 45km points.
I think 21km is fine because it's in heavy neut range at least, and leaves some room to play with disruptor 24km (28.8km) vs HIC 21km, where you can keep it tackled but not scrammed, as well as some room to maneuver around it while keeping point on something else. Personally I would rather see it be closer to 15km. I think 27-30km is way too oppressive and will retain the current 100mn ab meta that everyone is sick of.
You mention 45km point (Clearly you mean the Orthrus here). The Orthrus is a broken ship, we know it, everyone knows it, CCP knows it. Lets nerf the Orthrus instead of making the other 80% of roaming ships remain collecting dust in peoples hangers. The Orthrus keeps getting brought up as a reason for HICs to exist, the Orthrus is the only surviving MWD cruiser in the meta BECAUSE OF HICS. Nerf the Orthrus please. Nerf the HIC scram also, so we can have a more dynamic game with more options instead of being forced into 2 gang comps like we are now.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
FSync
Project Abscond Initiative Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 16:20:10 -
[336] - Quote
I think this is a bad change.
I shall elaborate;
- The HIC was already a rarely used ship in low-sec engagement, after these changes they are going to be non-existent in low sec. - The HIC will only be useable in 2 situations which rarely occur: capital on a gate -> sovblock warfare.
Right now the HIC class has formidable ships in there with each of their own specialties, and their main specialty is interdiction.
As soon as these changes are implemented, it's main use will be obsolete over the Orthrus, let alone it will drop slow tanky long scrams which had many ways to counter (ever fought a hic? just sit below it's optimals for example?).
I agree the HIC class is overpowered, I have made use of it many times gatecamping, though I do not agree that it should be nerfed that much.
A nerf of 20% is brilliant (max scram range of 28k), but what the OP says is not 20% but more 49% decrease.
Just taking out an entire class because a CSM Mr Hyde claimed it would be a good idea is going to make fundamental changes on how most battles are going to be fought out involving Hictors, and I can tell you up front, people will not pick the Hictor anymore outside of 0 sec, while we were already seeing so few hictors.
There's an insane amount of supercaps and titans out there, they are supposed to be rare, don't take the one tool away that made it somewhat affordable and useable vs capitals, a 50% nerf is really substantial.
Enfin, I think the idea to change the hictor is a good idea, but the method is a tad bit drastic if not, too overwhelming.
I hope CCP reviews this change before it makes it into the final build.
EDIT: I'm seeing posts about how people don't need to fit AB anymore, isn't eve all about fitting the right tool for the job? The HIC was the right tool to catch those fast guys who otherwise would spam microwarpdrives, I guarantee you it's going to be vagabond camping all over again. |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
135
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 17:11:47 -
[337] - Quote
The 21km scram is good for faction. Then the hic has to be within heavy neut optimal and within extreme ranges of grappler. The 37.* scram is just too powerful to such strong tank and strong DPS. Compare the scram range to a mordus ship. The scram is way longer, yet the ship is way more tanky and has a 300-500 dps whitch is pretty much.
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Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 17:30:58 -
[338] - Quote
This change seems a bit odd to me. Long range scram is the one thing HICs do well, why take that away? In my mind every class of ship in eve needs a purpose. The original purpose of the HIC was to point Supers/Titans. With the changes to fighters, and the addition of HAWs, that's not really possible anymore. Being able to get repaired while pointing might fix that. As it stands right now, for about 10% of the isk cost you could just bring a dictor bubble up, and cloak (repeat as needed).
Please do not put this change in until you have a role for HICs to perform. There is no purpose for leaving them in la-la land. In the current meta long range scram is the only thing they do well.
Some Ideas to make HICs useful -
Remove interceptor immunity to HIC bubbles. Change it so you cannot cloak in a HIC bubble. Remove T3 Immunity to HIC bubbles.
Add the ability to be repaired while using Focus point, but not bubble. Instead of adding another 'script' to shut off MWDs, change the Focus point to function differently depending on range, example below. 22-30+km = It just points them. 10-22km = It points them and turns off MWDs. 0-10km = It turns off MWDs, applies faction specific effect, and points them. Faction Specific effects: Amarr: Neut, Caldari:Jam, Gallante:Damp ,Minimitar:Web
IMO: Those bubble changes would be good reason to bring/fly a HIC. |
Cade Windstalker
938
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 18:01:49 -
[339] - Quote
Kassimila wrote:This change seems a bit odd to me. Long range scram is the one thing HICs do well, why take that away? In my mind every class of ship in eve needs a purpose. The original purpose of the HIC was to point Supers/Titans. With the changes to fighters, and the addition of HAWs, that's not really possible anymore. Being able to get repaired while pointing might fix that. As it stands right now, for about 10% of the isk cost you could just bring a dictor bubble up, and cloak (repeat as needed).
Because HICs already have other things they do well, and Gallente EWar's role is long-range point and scram. Something they were being completely eclipsed in by the HIC which offers every advantage over a Recon Cruiser in terms of HP, damage, scram range, and general utility.
Also HICs are absolutely used to point caps and up. Anyone saying that's not possible anymore has been hilariously misinformed. |
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 18:13:32 -
[340] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Because HICs already have other things they do well, and Gallente EWar's role is long-range point and scram. Something they were being completely eclipsed in by the HIC which offers every advantage over a Recon Cruiser in terms of HP, damage, scram range, and general utility.
Also HICs are absolutely used to point caps and up. Anyone saying that's not possible anymore has been hilariously misinformed.
Oh you can point them, you won't live very long, but yeah you can point them. |
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Cade Windstalker
941
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 21:23:52 -
[341] - Quote
Kassimila wrote:Oh you can point them, you won't live very long, but yeah you can point them. Also if you take a look the sensor strength on a HIC is like 19 base, the lachesis is 30. If you don't like being focus pointed, you can jam them out pretty easy. Sorry your MWD garmer can't jam well?
You're acting like the only place anyone ever tackles a Cap is in the middle of a giant blob. I can assure you this is not the case. Yes, in a big fight a 'dictor is a better bet than a HIC, but that doesn't make HICs useless by a long shot. They got plenty of use before they could scram and will continue to see plenty of use after.
Just because they occasionally get HAW-blapped doesn't change that.
Also I don't have a Garmur, but I appreciate your concern for its hypothetical jam strength |
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
2
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 21:59:21 -
[342] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi m8s,
In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.
WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes. .
Let me approach this from another perspective, and I'd love CCP Larrikin's feedback on this. The statement here is that focused points are 'too oppressive' especially in small gang pvp. This seems to be neglecting a couple of key factors about the HIC.
1.) Focused point is very cap intensive. 2.) HICs don't have the best sensor/target range setup.
The following ships can easily counter a HIC focus pointing.
Griffin Kitsune Blackbird Rook Falcon Keres Lachesis Arazu Sentinel Curse Pilgrim Anyone with medium/heavy neuts.
With this much counter play available, why the nerf? Maybe don't 'small gang' in 20x svipul's? I'm not seeing the logic here. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2833
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 22:32:06 -
[343] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:The 21km scram is good for faction. Then the hic has to be within heavy neut optimal and within extreme ranges of grappler. The 37.* scram is just too powerful to such strong tank and strong DPS. Compare the scram range to a mordus ship. The scram is way longer, yet the ship is way more tanky and has a 300-500 dps whitch is pretty much.
Why are we concerned about heavy neutralizer range? To make HIC's somewhat less useful against solo Battleships? We don't balance the game around solo anything. Solo Battleships will still get caught and killed by small gangs, with or without this change. What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway.
This is a short-sighted change driven by crying from solo roamers and small gang kiters.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
816
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 22:46:32 -
[344] - Quote
Kassimila wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi m8s,
In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.
WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes. . Let me approach this from another perspective, and I'd love CCP Larrikin's feedback on this. The statement here is that focused points are 'too oppressive' especially in small gang pvp. This seems to be neglecting a couple of key factors about the HIC. 1.) Focused point is very cap intensive. 2.) HICs don't have the best sensor/target range setup. The following ships can easily counter a HIC focus pointing. Griffin Kitsune Blackbird Rook Falcon Keres Lachesis Arazu Sentinel Curse Pilgrim Anyone with medium/heavy neuts. With this much counter play available, why the nerf? Maybe don't 'small gang' in 20x svipul's? I'm not seeing the logic here.
Do tell me how "anything" with heavy neuts will counter a HIC thats at 35km, about a full 15km outside optimal and deep into falloff. Unless youre a geddon or a bhaalgorn, but that is certainly not "anything". Same applies to the laughable inclusion of medium neuts. Any HIC pilot with a brain will screen/scram you before you can get in range to apply unbonused heavy/medium neuts.
Also cap boosted/batteried HICs are common. I mean unless you dont know how to fit your ship. I flew a cap boosted with a battery onyx, and it tanked well over 100k damage with just a large shield booster. Getting hit with a single heavy or medium neut would have had little effect.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2833
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 23:06:07 -
[345] - Quote
Stitch,
Medium neutralizers are part of the discussion because Suitonia and others have expressed a preference for 15km scram range. That's pretty close. Also, not everyone is solo. Surely any non-suicidal pilot has friends who can come in close and neutralize a HIC? Or jam it out?
You are talking as if slow, 92000 EHP ships that cannot receive remote repairs while doing anything useful and MUST fit a battery or cap booster to do anything cannot be killed by an opposing small gang. They can and do get killed. Just not by kiters who stay too far away to hurt them or suicidal solo pilots.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
5
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 23:29:21 -
[346] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote: Do tell me how "anything" with heavy neuts will counter a HIC thats at 35km, about a full 15km outside optimal and deep into falloff. Unless youre a geddon or a bhaalgorn, but that is certainly not "anything". Same applies to the laughable inclusion of medium neuts. Any HIC pilot with a brain will screen/scram you before you can get in range to apply unbonused heavy/medium neuts.
Also cap boosted/batteried HICs are common. I mean unless you dont know how to fit your ship. I flew a cap boosted with a battery onyx, and it tanked well over 100k damage with just a large shield booster. Getting hit with a single heavy or medium neut would have had little effect.
Again this is small "GANG" pvp, a HIC can't focus point everyone. Stop playing the 'well if this, and that' game. Everything in eve is situational. The point is simply they are neut vulnerable, and anything with medium/heavy neuts can get on it and cap it out. This is called counter play. I fail to see how focus pointing a single target is 'too supressive' for small gang warfare. I've yet to see 5-10 man HIC gangs running around, because alas it's not all that. It's simply a good ability a group of ships get, and nerfing it doesn't do anything productive for the game in my opinion. |
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Reverberation Project
15
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 07:10:44 -
[347] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway.
As much as I hate the proposed changes I have to correct you on that. The focused scram is getting a massive range reduction but you can still have a focused disruptor with the same range and strength they have now. That will hold caps down just as effectively, unless you're getting kited by a 50000MN Snaked nano Hel or something. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2833
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 11:09:48 -
[348] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway. As much as I hate the proposed changes I have to correct you on that. The focused scram is getting a massive range reduction but you can still have a focused disruptor with the same range and strength they have now. That will hold caps down just as effectively, unless you're getting kited by a 50000MN Snaked nano Hel or something.
That's fair.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
8
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 15:03:33 -
[349] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway. As much as I hate the proposed changes I have to correct you on that. The focused scram is getting a massive range reduction but you can still have a focused disruptor with the same range and strength they have now. That will hold caps down just as effectively, unless you're getting kited by a 50000MN Snaked nano Hel or something.
inb4 new meta is snake nano Hel |
Delarian Rox
FHTAAAGN
23
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 09:55:17 -
[350] - Quote
I only hope that HIC's wil get either some speed or dps buffs to compencate this nerf. Or maybe larger dronebays.
And i'm strongly against overheated scram range cause it lead to the same problems - gatecamps you can't escape from.
P. S. Almost trained them to V lol |
|
Cade Windstalker
966
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 01:52:39 -
[351] - Quote
Delarian Rox wrote:I only hope that HIC's wil get either some speed or dps buffs to compencate this nerf. Or maybe larger dronebays.
And i'm strongly against overheated scram range cause it lead to the same problems - gatecamps you can't escape from.
P. S. Almost trained them to V lol
Seems unlikely, considering they didn't get any nerfs when they originally let HIC points Scram stuff a year ago. |
Ruby Gnollo
17
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 05:48:41 -
[352] - Quote
Trajan Unknown wrote:Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)
What's interesting is hearing CCP taking the CSM as an excuse for this. Twice. |
Prometheus Centuri
Interstellar Deshipping Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 22:00:19 -
[353] - Quote
Here we go again... something else to fiddle around with.
STOP TRYING TO FIX SOMETHING THAT'S NOT BROKEN! There's a reason why it's called a "HEAVY INTERDICTOR". If you're going to have a recon that can do a better job then why the hell would you need a HIC anyway? To limit their use to capitals only? then how does this help small gang warfare?!?
|
token trade alt
Slamming Mad B-Balls
9
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 22:10:38 -
[354] - Quote
Just gonna point out (point, get it?) that if the Mordu ships didn't have a point range bonus none of this would have ever come up. It's nice to live in a world where you have a recon or something nearby to scram at range, with bonuses at all times, but for most people, against one ship, it's unrealistic. You get near one of those ships with your inferior scram range and they just turn off your mwd before you can, theirs. Kitey ships worked for quite a while without something that kept them inherently safe, this just makes sure that unless the pilot is kind of slow or drunk off the hubris that these ships provide, you're not going to lose it. Not to mention anti-tackle RLML's dealing almost full damage.
Distinctly recall back in the day larger ship types were supposed to have difficulty with smaller targets. Weird. |
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
56
|
Posted - 2017.03.04 09:36:47 -
[355] - Quote
Reducing focused scram range reduction on HICs is a poor idea for pretty much all of the reasons stated; having a long range scram is one of the main reasons to take the time to train the hull from 4 to 5, and to train graviton physics to 5, which is around 40-44 days of training to take both from 4 to 5. If you have the focused scram script loaded, you generally aren't tackling more than one target as multiple disruption field generators aren't fitted when you intend to use the hull in this manner.
The proliferation of oversized AB fits isn't because of HICs, it is because of scrams in general, as well as all the tengus and mordus legion ships out there.
Out of all the things to spend time 'balancing' I'd think that medium projectiles would be higher on the list of things to do; a balancing pass to medium projectiles would certainly be welcomed by a much larger % of the community than nerfing hictors.
my other nano is a polycarb
|
GROUND XERO
Rennfeuer Project.Mayhem.
13
|
Posted - 2017.03.04 12:41:36 -
[356] - Quote
... this is ********!
Kiting guys got through this a long time ago! So while super are getting cheap as **** you nerf the tackle for em... NCPL-Change? I can see the problem when jumping solo through a gate and found yourself infront of a remote sebo hic waiting to stop you! But than again every other remote sebo camp will cause the same effect! So i never saw a need to change and i doubt there is one!
NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!
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Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
232
|
Posted - 2017.03.04 15:04:32 -
[357] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:The proliferation of oversized AB fits isn't because of HICs, it is because of scrams in general, as well as all the tengus and mordus legion ships out there.
Hum... No.
|
Cade Windstalker
993
|
Posted - 2017.03.04 19:41:24 -
[358] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:Reducing focused scram range reduction on HICs is a poor idea for pretty much all of the reasons stated; having a long range scram is one of the main reasons to take the time to train the hull from 4 to 5, and to train graviton physics to 5, which is around 40-44 days of training to take both from 4 to 5. If you have the focused scram script loaded, you generally aren't tackling more than one target as multiple disruption field generators aren't fitted when you intend to use the hull in this manner.
The proliferation of oversized AB fits isn't because of HICs, it is because of scrams in general, as well as all the tengus and mordus legion ships out there.
Out of all the things to spend time 'balancing' I'd think that medium projectiles would be higher on the list of things to do; a balancing pass to medium projectiles would certainly be welcomed by a much larger % of the community than nerfing hictors.
Except that oversized AB fits have been a thing for over 4 years now, and HICs being able to scram at all with their point is only a year old. Also people trained L5 HIC and T2 points well before HIC-scrams were a thing.
As to your argument that CCP could better spend their time elsewhere, this is a fairly small and obvious change. HICs are better at being a Gallente Recon than the Gallente Recons are, and CCP even said back in the original HIC changes thread that they were considering exactly this change if HIC scrams turned out to be OP. In comparison re-balancing medium projectiles, again, is a much larger project and a lot more time on CCP's part. |
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Reverberation Project
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 08:03:34 -
[359] - Quote
GROUND XERO wrote:... this is ********!
Kiting guys got through this a long time ago! So while super are getting cheap as **** you nerf the tackle for em... and it is no longer possible to stay out of heavy neut range....NCPL-Change? I can see the problem when jumping solo through a gate and found yourself infront of a remote sebo hic waiting to stop you! But than again every other remote sebo camp will cause the same effect! So i never saw a need to change and i doubt there is one! This does not affect tacking supers unless they're somehow faster than the HIC. You can still warp disrupt them at the current range, it just won't be a scram. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3862
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 10:59:26 -
[360] - Quote
Kassimila wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi m8s,
In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.
WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes. . Let me approach this from another perspective, and I'd love CCP Larrikin's feedback on this. The statement here is that focused points are 'too oppressive' especially in small gang pvp. This seems to be neglecting a couple of key factors about the HIC. 1.) Focused point is very cap intensive. 2.) HICs don't have the best sensor/target range setup. The following ships can easily counter a HIC focus pointing. Griffin Kitsune Blackbird Rook Falcon Keres Lachesis Arazu Sentinel Curse Pilgrim Anyone with medium/heavy neuts. With this much counter play available, why the nerf? Maybe don't 'small gang' in 20x svipul's? I'm not seeing the logic here.
how about the fact that they out scram the dedicated scram E-war ship with significantly more tank and DPS? not to mention a sebo or two and a cap booster let it just go on ignoring your counters.
BLOPS Hauler
|
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3862
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 11:26:37 -
[361] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:GROUND XERO wrote:... this is ********!
Kiting guys got through this a long time ago! So while super are getting cheap as **** you nerf the tackle for em... and it is no longer possible to stay out of heavy neut range....NCPL-Change? I can see the problem when jumping solo through a gate and found yourself infront of a remote sebo hic waiting to stop you! But than again every other remote sebo camp will cause the same effect! So i never saw a need to change and i doubt there is one! This does not affect tacking supers unless they're somehow faster than the HIC. You can still warp disrupt them at the current range, it just won't be a scram.
i mean we all know how important scramming a super is...
BLOPS Hauler
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3862
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 11:52:57 -
[362] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:Reducing focused scram range reduction on HICs is a poor idea for pretty much all of the reasons stated; having a long range scram is one of the main reasons to take the time to train the hull from 4 to 5, and to train graviton physics to 5, which is around 40-44 days of training to take both from 4 to 5.
many of us had these trained long before the addition of the scram effect
Quote: If you have the focused scram script loaded, you generally aren't tackling more than one target as multiple disruption field generators aren't fitted when you intend to use the hull in this manner.
yes you are and yes they are. in fact we have several that fit 4 and even up to 6 for the ones that can manage the cap.
just because YOU don't use them in this way doesn't mean they are not used this way. hell I had flown 4 WDFG fits before the scram change to assist in pinning down fleets that began to attempt to run. or point multiple high value ships to raise the chance of the enemy doubling down.
BLOPS Hauler
|
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 08:07:54 -
[363] - Quote
Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - can't be repaired with point active - can't have sensor links on it with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - everyone fly with neut's in there fits those days - neut on enemy fit and hic is offline - poor ccp code as if nanofag lands on grid at 0km, it will be targeted and pointed when it is 20-25km further away add speed nanofag have when mwd get shutdown, and it will be 40km away. - no dps on itself when doing its role - pointless against oversized AB fits, that everyone runs when not in nano ship.
Pros of HIC like Devoter - can hold nanofags on grid - last enough for kitchen-sink rush support to come
Remove it only unique ability, and it will be trash again. And again, if someone haven't notice it yet, this ship is classified as Tackle.
Also what ccp do is promote every bad trait you can come up with, cowards, thief's, traitors, and then is surprised that casual gamers avoid there game, but then why should someone who work, and want to have fun in free time, deal with those lowlifes, yet those are ones who will spend cash on this game, not those lowlifes.
Summarizing, marketing ppl who define target for your product, in conjunction with those responsible for bame balance and new player friendly environment, should be FIRED . |
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Reverberation Project
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 09:36:08 -
[364] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - no dps on itself when doing its role While you have some good points, you clearly haven't used HICs much.
- Can MWD/AB with point active. If you have a bubble up you'll be super slow, but focused points don't affect it. - Align around 8-9 seconds. Sure, a Machariel aligns faster, but at least a super doesn't align faster... - Plated and Trimarked Devoter can do 1285 easy. Average speeds are around 1300-1400. - Maybe an Onyx has cap issues, but a Devoter can keep things running quite well as long as you're sparing with the MWD. - That depends on the role. If the role is to point 5-6 ships at once, it will have no DPS. If the role is to point one target, a HIC can get 300-500 DPS. |
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 09:41:04 -
[365] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - no dps on itself when doing its role While you have some good points, you clearly haven't used HICs much. - Can MWD/AB with point active. If you have a bubble up you'll be super slow, but focused points don't affect it. - Align around 8-9 seconds. Sure, a Machariel aligns faster, but at least a super doesn't align faster... - Plated and Trimarked Devoter can do 1285 easy. Average speeds are around 1300-1400. - Maybe an Onyx has cap issues, but a Devoter can keep things running quite well as long as you're sparing with the MWD. - That depends on the role. If the role is to point 5-6 ships at once, it will have no DPS. If the role is to point one target, a HIC can get 300-500 DPS.
No pyfa/eft warriors please. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
818
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 14:36:01 -
[366] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Kagi Anzomi wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - no dps on itself when doing its role While you have some good points, you clearly haven't used HICs much. - Can MWD/AB with point active. If you have a bubble up you'll be super slow, but focused points don't affect it. - Align around 8-9 seconds. Sure, a Machariel aligns faster, but at least a super doesn't align faster... - Plated and Trimarked Devoter can do 1285 easy. Average speeds are around 1300-1400. - Maybe an Onyx has cap issues, but a Devoter can keep things running quite well as long as you're sparing with the MWD. - That depends on the role. If the role is to point 5-6 ships at once, it will have no DPS. If the role is to point one target, a HIC can get 300-500 DPS. No pyfa/eft warriors please.
Sorry if what he said goes against your agenda due to inexperience or only flying 1 fit.
Ive flown a single point devoter, solo (even have a pvp video of it). You can MWD just fine with scram running, speed penalty only applies when bubble is up. My devoter went 1600m/s cold, 2200 /w heat and aligned in about 6.5s (1 nano), could tank 550-600 dps and do 500dps at 21km, or 400 dps at 40km. Was cap boosted, and combined with less cap intensive point, was easy to keep cap running (and using heavy beams).
What you said is just wrong. Even plated, the numbers you quoted are wrong. Unless youre some low skill scrub meeting the bare minimum for skills and sitting in a HIC.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
|
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 14:51:19 -
[367] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Kagi Anzomi wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - no dps on itself when doing its role While you have some good points, you clearly haven't used HICs much. - Can MWD/AB with point active. If you have a bubble up you'll be super slow, but focused points don't affect it. - Align around 8-9 seconds. Sure, a Machariel aligns faster, but at least a super doesn't align faster... - Plated and Trimarked Devoter can do 1285 easy. Average speeds are around 1300-1400. - Maybe an Onyx has cap issues, but a Devoter can keep things running quite well as long as you're sparing with the MWD. - That depends on the role. If the role is to point 5-6 ships at once, it will have no DPS. If the role is to point one target, a HIC can get 300-500 DPS. No pyfa/eft warriors please. Sorry if what he said goes against your agenda due to inexperience or only flying 1 fit. Ive flown a single point devoter, solo (even have a pvp video of it). You can MWD just fine with scram running, speed penalty only applies when bubble is up. My devoter went 1600m/s cold, 2200 /w heat and aligned in about 6.5s (1 nano), could tank 550-600 dps and do 500dps at 21km, or 400 dps at 40km. Was cap boosted, and combined with less cap intensive point, was easy to keep cap running (and using heavy beams). What you said is just wrong. Even plated, the numbers you quoted are wrong. Unless youre some low skill scrub meeting the bare minimum for skills and sitting in a HIC.
No pyfa/eft warriors please, still applies. |
Cade Windstalker
1002
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 16:07:22 -
[368] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - can't be repaired with point active - can't have sensor links on it with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - everyone fly with neut's in there fits those days - neut on enemy fit and hic is offline - poor ccp code as if nano lands on grid at 0km, it will be targeted and pointed when it is 20-25km further away add speed nano have when mwd get shutdown, and it will be 40km away. - no dps on itself when doing its role - pointless against oversized AB fits, that everyone runs when not in nano ship.
Pros of HIC like Devoter - can hold nanofags on grid - last enough for kitchen-sink rush support to come
First bit is just false, as several others have pointed out.
Sensor links don't matter for getting initial point.
Your align time numbers are flat false unless you're running a MWD and 1600 plates, which would just be WTF.
The cap comment is also false if you fit correctly, a HIC's point costs more cap yes but not so much as to be significantly more crippled by neuts than a Recon, especially if you fit to deal with neuting.
Code isn't the issue here, it's simply server ticks. The game has to run this way or the large scale battles Eve is know for would not work. You can't support nearly as many people as Eve does on a grid at once running things real-time.
The DPS is still better than on a comparable EWar ship.
Oversized ABs aren't a con of the HIC, they're just not something a scram works on.
The rest either aren't terribly significant cons in most cases, and certainly aren't enough to make anyone pick a Recon over a HIC for scram projection.
You also forgot that HICs tank far far more than Recons, deal more DPS, and have better fittings.
Raven Ship wrote:No pyfa/eft warriors please.
Your numbers are still incorrect, and your perspective is one dimensional. "How does this ship work for my specific play style" You probably didn't care about HICs before they could scram, once they're no longer the absolute best option for a long-range scram you'll go back to not caring about them. Oh well.
We get it, you're mad something you're using is getting nerfed, but that's no reason to be calling names or using bad facts that anyone can debunk with five minutes and a calculator. |
Syri Taneka
Un4seen Development Sev3rance
147
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 17:40:37 -
[369] - Quote
Syri Taneka wrote:Current script range is 37.5km on t2. 80% of that would be 30, not 20. Typo?
Quote:Hi :)
The Warp Disruption Script gets a 50% bonus to the base range of 25km (at max skills) giving it a total range of 37.5km. The Warp Scrambling Script gets a -20% penalty to the base range of 25km (at max skills) giving it a total range of 20km.
I hope that clears things up :)
Cheers, CCP Larrikin
Hmm. This does impact the usefulness of a HIC as heavy tackle while still making it more useful than every other option in every role except very large fleet battles (where lack of sustained RR becomes a serious problem).
I don't think my usage of this ship class is going to change much = P |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
136
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 17:46:20 -
[370] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - can't be repaired with point active - can't have sensor links on it with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - everyone fly with neut's in there fits those days - neut on enemy fit and hic is offline - poor ccp code as if nanofag lands on grid at 0km, it will be targeted and pointed when it is 20-25km further away add speed nanofag have when mwd get shutdown, and it will be 40km away. - no dps on itself when doing its role - pointless against oversized AB fits, that everyone runs when not in nano ship.
Pros of HIC like Devoter - can hold nanofags on grid - last enough for kitchen-sink rush support to come
Remove it only unique ability, and it will be trash again. And again, if someone haven't notice it yet, this ship is classified as Tackle.
Also what ccp do is promote every bad trait you can come up with, cowards, thief's, traitors, and then is surprised that casual gamers avoid there game, but then why should someone who work, and want to have fun in free time, deal with those lowlifes, yet those are ones who will spend cash on this game, not those lowlifes.
Summarizing, marketing ppl who define target for your product, in conjunction with those responsible for bame balance and new player friendly environment, should be FIRED .
dude, what u smokin'? I want some of that.
-CAN ab/MWD with focused point AND bubble, but speed is greatly reduced with bubble up. -My nano devoter aligns 5.62 sek -Cap plenty enough. Even small cap injector on 100mn ab fit is enough. -My nano devoter top speed 1740/2450 cold/hot with no implants, no links. -Only curse or x-type neut will shut hic down from 39.4 km. All other is just tickling. -My nano hic does up to 577 dps (conflag, acolytes and hot) -Oversized ab fits are so popular beacause hic 39.4km scram.
-We nanofags don't engage if we have no way of shutting hic down
And if u go few pages back, u find my fit posted on this thread. Between myself and a corpmate we have more than 250 kills with that fit or 100mn ab variant within last 3 months. So we DO have quite a lot of experience.
edit: Adding kb links to my corpmates killboard to ALL kills with devoter he has. https://zkillboard.com/ship/12017/character/1629137859/ |
|
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
252
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 18:24:18 -
[371] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:No pyfa/eft warriors please, still applies.
Lucy Callagan wrote:I like how the people complaining about this pretty much have as much knowledge about small gang as a Malian Camel breeder has about sailing.
|
Captain Highfield
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 07:13:27 -
[372] - Quote
Where is the post to discuss the changes with Directional and Probe Scanner?
I am not enjoying a few things that are coming in March. |
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 07:13:53 -
[373] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - can't be repaired with point active - can't have sensor links on it with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - everyone fly with neut's in there fits those days - neut on enemy fit and hic is offline - poor ccp code as if nano lands on grid at 0km, it will be targeted and pointed when it is 20-25km further away add speed nano have when mwd get shutdown, and it will be 40km away. - no dps on itself when doing its role - pointless against oversized AB fits, that everyone runs when not in nano ship.
Pros of HIC like Devoter - can hold nanofags on grid - last enough for kitchen-sink rush support to come First bit is just false, as several others have pointed out. Sensor links not working after the point is active don't matter for getting initial point. Your align time numbers are flat false unless you're running a MWD and 1600 plates, which would just be WTF. The cap comment is also false if you fit correctly, a HIC's point costs more cap yes but not so much as to be significantly more crippled by neuts than a Recon, especially if you fit to deal with neuting. Code isn't the issue here, it's simply server ticks. The game has to run this way or the large scale battles Eve is know for would not work. You can't support nearly as many people as Eve does on a grid at once running things real-time. The DPS is still better than on a comparable EWar ship. Oversized ABs aren't a con of the HIC, they're just not something a scram works on. The rest either aren't terribly significant cons in most cases, and certainly aren't enough to make anyone pick a Recon over a HIC for scram projection. You also forgot that HICs tank far far more than Recons, deal more DPS, and have better fittings. Raven Ship wrote:No pyfa/eft warriors please. Your numbers are still incorrect, and your perspective is one dimensional. "How does this ship work for my specific play style" You probably didn't care about HICs before they could scram, once they're no longer the absolute best option for a long-range scram you'll go back to not caring about them. Oh well. We get it, you're mad something you're using is getting nerfed, but that's no reason to be calling names or using bad facts that anyone can debunk with five minutes and a calculator.
And again forum spammer, do not speak about things you do not know about.
|
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 07:16:44 -
[374] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote:Raven Ship wrote: Pros of HIC like Devoter - can hold nanofags on grid
-We nanofags don't engage if we have no way of shutting hic down
Nanofags hatred is best hatred.
|
Lucy Callagan
TURN LEFT
256
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 19:04:30 -
[375] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Nanofags hatred is best hatred.
I know my Nanofiber Internal Structure II makes your eyes damp. But don't worry, after the patch, every hic pilot will be given Caldari Navy Tissues to wipe those tears off. |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2556
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 00:12:25 -
[376] - Quote
Aweful change. Basically a 50% nerf to HIC scram which is huge.
The question is what overpowered thing were HICs doing that warranted this nerf over fixing other more pressing problems? I think this like just a pet project of some CSM who got his Orth scrammed and not a CSM representing the concerns of the community.
If not where is the whine thread regarding the OPness of HIC scrams? I'd like to read.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2835
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 00:26:34 -
[377] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Kagi Anzomi wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - no dps on itself when doing its role While you have some good points, you clearly haven't used HICs much. - Can MWD/AB with point active. If you have a bubble up you'll be super slow, but focused points don't affect it. - Align around 8-9 seconds. Sure, a Machariel aligns faster, but at least a super doesn't align faster... - Plated and Trimarked Devoter can do 1285 easy. Average speeds are around 1300-1400. - Maybe an Onyx has cap issues, but a Devoter can keep things running quite well as long as you're sparing with the MWD. - That depends on the role. If the role is to point 5-6 ships at once, it will have no DPS. If the role is to point one target, a HIC can get 300-500 DPS. No pyfa/eft warriors please.
He is not. His description is more accurate than yours.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2835
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 00:31:14 -
[378] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Kagi Anzomi wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - no dps on itself when doing its role While you have some good points, you clearly haven't used HICs much. - Can MWD/AB with point active. If you have a bubble up you'll be super slow, but focused points don't affect it. - Align around 8-9 seconds. Sure, a Machariel aligns faster, but at least a super doesn't align faster... - Plated and Trimarked Devoter can do 1285 easy. Average speeds are around 1300-1400. - Maybe an Onyx has cap issues, but a Devoter can keep things running quite well as long as you're sparing with the MWD. - That depends on the role. If the role is to point 5-6 ships at once, it will have no DPS. If the role is to point one target, a HIC can get 300-500 DPS. No pyfa/eft warriors please. Sorry if what he said goes against your agenda due to inexperience or only flying 1 fit. Ive flown a single point devoter, solo (even have a pvp video of it). You can MWD just fine with scram running, speed penalty only applies when bubble is up. My devoter went 1600m/s cold, 2200 /w heat and aligned in about 6.5s (1 nano), could tank 550-600 dps and do 500dps at 21km, or 400 dps at 40km. Was cap boosted, and combined with less cap intensive point, was easy to keep cap running (and using heavy beams). What you said is just wrong. Even plated, the numbers you quoted are wrong. Unless youre some low skill scrub meeting the bare minimum for skills and sitting in a HIC.
Stitch is about as far from an EFT warrior as you can get. The dude actually gets out there and PVP's. I also fly HIC's, almost exclusively (well, HIC's and Dreadnoughts), and your numbers are just plain wrong. That doesn't mean I am in favor of this massive nerf to HIC's, but at least get your information correct.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2557
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 02:54:50 -
[379] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Kagi Anzomi wrote:Raven Ship wrote:Cons of HIC like Devoter - can't MWD/AB with point active - align around 15sec? - top speed around 1km/s? - not enough cap to keep it own toys running - no dps on itself when doing its role While you have some good points, you clearly haven't used HICs much. - Can MWD/AB with point active. If you have a bubble up you'll be super slow, but focused points don't affect it. - Align around 8-9 seconds. Sure, a Machariel aligns faster, but at least a super doesn't align faster... - Plated and Trimarked Devoter can do 1285 easy. Average speeds are around 1300-1400. - Maybe an Onyx has cap issues, but a Devoter can keep things running quite well as long as you're sparing with the MWD. - That depends on the role. If the role is to point 5-6 ships at once, it will have no DPS. If the role is to point one target, a HIC can get 300-500 DPS. No pyfa/eft warriors please. Sorry if what he said goes against your agenda due to inexperience or only flying 1 fit. Ive flown a single point devoter, solo (even have a pvp video of it). You can MWD just fine with scram running, speed penalty only applies when bubble is up. My devoter went 1600m/s cold, 2200 /w heat and aligned in about 6.5s (1 nano), could tank 550-600 dps and do 500dps at 21km, or 400 dps at 40km. Was cap boosted, and combined with less cap intensive point, was easy to keep cap running (and using heavy beams). What you said is just wrong. Even plated, the numbers you quoted are wrong. Unless youre some low skill scrub meeting the bare minimum for skills and sitting in a HIC. Stitch is about as far from an EFT warrior as you can get. The dude actually gets out there and PVP's. I also fly HIC's, almost exclusively (well, HIC's and Dreadnoughts), and your numbers are just plain wrong. That doesn't mean I am in favor of this massive nerf to HIC's, but at least get your information correct. Agreed.
While having only used Onyx and Broadsword my experience is the opposite of the stats in question. MWD focus point active is fine. Large faction cap has even Onyx cap stable with SB n all mods on. Only time I ran out of cap in both Onyx n Broadsword was active tanked 100mn MWD but that took my speed to 5k / 7k Onyx / Brioadsword (Anti Orthrus Fit) and still lasted 1.5 mins.
Fit for single point work Onyx has a respectable 500dps with rapid lights and hits every class of ship for almost full DPS.
Good ships but not deserving of a nerf especially when considering the abilities of kiting ships and their near impunity to being caught. Having been in Horde dealing with kiters on a daily basis as a standing fleet member I've watcher kiters picking off people and avoiding the fleets easily hour after hour. Only times they were caught was when they screwed up.
HICs weren't that useful other than to scare them off. I've had Orthrus land next to me in Onyx and align and warp out before lock. The only time I've caught them reliably is starting at about 100km with 100mn MWD and snagging them before they realised the HIC that was at 100 is suddenly at 60 and doing 5-7kms. That only works if they're preoccupied with kiting somebody else.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Cade Windstalker
1028
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 16:06:01 -
[380] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Aweful change. Basically a 50% nerf to HIC scram which is huge.
The question is what overpowered thing were HICs doing that warranted this nerf over fixing other more pressing problems? I think this like just a pet project of some CSM who got his Orth scrammed and not a CSM representing the concerns of the community.
If not where is the whine thread regarding the OPness of HIC scrams? I'd like to read.
Not every change requires massive whining to justify it. CCP flat out stated a year ago when they were making this change that they were considering a split in the scripts if the scram effect turned out to be too powerful.
Considering it's pretty solidly overshadowing actual scram bonused ships I think this is a pretty justified change. |
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2558
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 23:43:49 -
[381] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Aweful change. Basically a 50% nerf to HIC scram which is huge.
The question is what overpowered thing were HICs doing that warranted this nerf over fixing other more pressing problems? I think this like just a pet project of some CSM who got his Orth scrammed and not a CSM representing the concerns of the community.
If not where is the whine thread regarding the OPness of HIC scrams? I'd like to read. Not every change requires massive whining to justify it. CCP flat out stated a year ago when they were making this change that they were considering a split in the scripts if the scram effect turned out to be too powerful. Considering it's pretty solidly overshadowing actual scram bonused ships I think this is a pretty justified change. it is a scram bonused ship requiring very intensive skills, high costs and significant downsides _ like no drone bsy.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Reverberation Project
21
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 01:18:09 -
[382] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:it is a scram bonused ship requiring very intensive skills, high costs and significant downsides _ like no drone bay. The Devoter has a drone bay, though for some reason Phobos doesn't. |
Cade Windstalker
1036
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 01:37:36 -
[383] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:it is a scram bonused ship requiring very intensive skills, high costs and significant downsides _ like no drone bay.
Try training graviton physics 5 to fly an arazu. Recons already get either cloak or don't appear on scanner so they have a way of getting close that HICs do not. Let's give HICs one of those abilities perhaps?
None of those downsides is remotely enough to offset the massive scram range, especially when you compare it to the actual scram-range bonused ships.
Compared to an Arazu or a Lachesis a HIC has:
- Way more HP and a generally better tank
- Better scram and point range
- Infini-point
- better DPS
- More fitting space AND slots
- And can get better cap and/or equal or better speed
- The ability to deploy a bubble in Null and WHs
On the flip side the Arazu and Lachesis get...
- The ability to cloak (complete with targeting delay) or be D-scan immune (worthless if already on same grid)
- More bandwidth, slightly, and a bigger drone bay than *most* HICs... but not the Devoter for some reason.
- A Sensor Dampener bonus
No one is going to pick a Lachesis or Arazu over a HIC when the HIC has a better long-scram, better tank, and more DPS because those matter *way* more for any non-cloaky op than either the cloak or the d-scan immunity. Not to mention the ability to deploy a bubble to catch people if the fleet needs to setup a camp for some reason.
Claiming that HICs somehow need to have a longer scram than a scram-focused EWar cruiser is a little ridiculous... |
BoerdeOrk
Nightfactor Power Produce Das Fornax Protektorat
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 11:44:32 -
[384] - Quote
Time to buy a Stack of Orthrus and abuse it like F*ck and waiting for a 'Balance'. |
Racro Arifistan
Schneckt Pen Is Out
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 11:48:20 -
[385] - Quote
R.I.P dual web, dual prop phobos. you can no longer **** over the balanced legion and apply blaster dps.
Space Chimp
|
Karmen Baric
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 11:48:42 -
[386] - Quote
InSTiiNK Loutte wrote:After giving the ability to Rorqual to be SuperHictors, and you know retrograte HICs to be **** pointers.
I find the idea absolutely ridiculous.
In my honest opinion, you CCP, better keep proper gamerplay to proper ship types, and the last ship that needs a nerf is a HIC, and the first, is the Rorqual. So before Nerfing any other ships, nerf rorquals to give them back their natural gameplay, mining. At the same time, I find this very funny from a Pandemic Legion guy, upgrading Rorquals, and now they don't need HICs anymore, they downgrade them. :)
"My job here is done"
Best Regards, InSTiiNK Loutte very much agree with this.
Dodo Veetee wrote:Thanks for nerfing the counter to kitey fleets.
Maybe you guys can now balance the ******* orthrus and garmur? yep these need nerfs
|
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
3096
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 13:38:15 -
[387] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:it is a scram bonused ship requiring very intensive skills, high costs and significant downsides _ like no drone bay. The Devoter has a drone bay, though for some reason Phobos doesn't. It's pretty typical for Amarr ships to have a bigger drone bay that Caldari or Minmatar ships.
The Phobos is a Roden Shipyards design, which tend to eschew drones in favor of railguns.
It makes sense from a purely lore-based standpoint, but I've always felt that balancing to satisfy lore instead of actual game mechanics is poor game design.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
I predicted FAUXs
|
O2 jayjay
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 15:11:26 -
[388] - Quote
this is how you lose subs |
Yaosus
Reliables Inc Vendetta Mercenary Group
34
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 15:41:14 -
[389] - Quote
way 2 go.. at least leave it at 30 km or something otherwise what's the point
I like to move it move it
|
Vytone
Ganja Labs Exodus.
35
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 16:52:56 -
[390] - Quote
TinkerHell wrote:Good. RIP HICs. Long live Gallente Recons actually being able to do their job again.
(role bonus for scram range on fiend plzplzplzpzlpzlpzlzplzplzz)
Plzplzplzplzplzplzzplzplzplzplzzplzplzplzplz
In case they didn't hear you, |
|
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
9
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 17:50:22 -
[391] - Quote
@CCP - So what exactly is the point of this thread? Looking through it 90% of the people are against the change. Yet you're just going forward with it anyway? HICs are fine right now, they don't need tweaking.
@everyone_else -
Everyone seems to think that suddenly once this change goes in you're going to see more Arazu/Lachesis hulls flying around. You won't. They aren't used because they have crap DPS, crap tank, an undersized drone bay, and more importantly I can get an Orthrus for the same price and actually do damage. They will still be used in larger fleets due to long range tackle, and that's about it. Why do I say all this? Because the range at all 5 of a republic fleet scram on a Lachesis is 22.5km. Same as a T2 post change hictor focus point with this new fangled terrible idea of a script.
For those of you that think a HIC can hold down a Titan/Super right now, the answer is yes they can....for about 15-20 seconds. HICs actually need the long range scram to shut down Capital MWDs while staying out of neut range. This would enable you to keep them in the dictor bubbles. If you get within 24km, that is the no-no zone. You will be neuted to high hell, and killed.
Now you may say, ok so use the long range point script and stay out of neut range! A HIC with mwd/ab and focus point can keep up with a MWD super/ittan/carrier/etc. Well yes you can, however you can't maintain a focus point and MWD/AB for long, and ideally you'd like to keep them in the bubbles.
|
Cade Windstalker
1059
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:59:25 -
[392] - Quote
Kassimila wrote:@CCP - So what exactly is the point of this thread? Looking through it 90% of the people are against the change. Yet you're just going forward with it anyway? HICs are fine right now, they don't need tweaking.
You're kind of answering your own question here. They're massively more powerful than ships with an actual scram-range focused bonus, and are basically completely overshadowing them.
CCP even flat out stated in the original 'HICs now Scram' thread that they were considering exactly this if the HIC-scram proved to be too powerful, which given its near ubiquitousness at this point has clearly proven to be the case.
Kassimila wrote:Everyone seems to think that suddenly once this change goes in you're going to see more Arazu/Lachesis hulls flying around. You won't. They aren't used because they have crap DPS, crap tank, an undersized drone bay, and more importantly I can get an Orthrus for the same price and actually do damage. They will still be used in larger fleets due to long range tackle, and that's about it. Why do I say all this? Because the range at all 5 of a republic fleet scram on a Lachesis is 22.5km. Same as a T2 post change hictor focus point with this new fangled terrible idea of a script.
The whole point of this is that you should have to trade something for the extra point range, though your numbers here are incorrect.
Maximum with Command Links is 29.8km scrams without heat, 35km with heat. Neither heat nor Command Bursts affect scram range on a HIC. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2838
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:16:22 -
[393] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: No one is going to pick a Lachesis or Arazu over a HIC when the HIC has a better long-scram, better tank, and more DPS because those matter *way* more for any non-cloaky op than either the cloak or the d-scan immunity. Not to mention the ability to deploy a bubble to catch people if the fleet needs to setup a camp for some reason.
Claiming that HICs somehow need to have a longer scram than a scram-focused EWar cruiser is a little ridiculous...
Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3182
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:30:48 -
[394] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:
Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.
This mean ~106 km long point right? |
Cade Windstalker
1060
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:50:31 -
[395] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range.
Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't?
We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago.
I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better".
In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak? |
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
9
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:40:57 -
[396] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Kassimila wrote:@CCP - So what exactly is the point of this thread? Looking through it 90% of the people are against the change. Yet you're just going forward with it anyway? HICs are fine right now, they don't need tweaking. You're kind of answering your own question here. They're massively more powerful than ships with an actual scram-range focused bonus, and are basically completely overshadowing them. CCP even flat out stated in the original 'HICs now Scram' thread that they were considering exactly this if the HIC-scram proved to be too powerful, which given its near ubiquitousness at this point has clearly proven to be the case. Kassimila wrote:Everyone seems to think that suddenly once this change goes in you're going to see more Arazu/Lachesis hulls flying around. You won't. They aren't used because they have crap DPS, crap tank, an undersized drone bay, and more importantly I can get an Orthrus for the same price and actually do damage. They will still be used in larger fleets due to long range tackle, and that's about it. Why do I say all this? Because the range at all 5 of a republic fleet scram on a Lachesis is 22.5km. Same as a T2 post change hictor focus point with this new fangled terrible idea of a script. The whole point of this is that you should have to trade something for the extra point range, though your numbers here are incorrect. Maximum with Command Links is 29.8km scrams without heat, 35km with heat. Neither heat nor Command Bursts affect scram range on a HIC.
I think you're missing the point that HICs cannot receive reps/assistance while pointing something. That IS the downside. Yes you are correct I didn't factor in links/heat. The statement CCP made was that this change was directed at SMALL GANG combat. I fail to see how a single HIC, shutting down a single targets MWD is too powerful. The entire role of the ship is to be tackle, and they are taking some of that away. All because the player base is too dense to bring a couple ECM ships to take care of the problem. The Lachesis in fact can point further, and just damp out the HIC. So I don't get this 'it doesn't have a role' BS.
In regards to the Lachesis/Arazu, it won't be used any more, or any less because of this change. It has Damps, it has a what 80k long point with republic heat/skills/etc? HICs don't get that. Most small gang stuff happens between 0-30km, so people bring ships that are good at those ranges. Lachs/Huggins are good for long range big fleets like Cerbs for example. Fleets where the HICs are near useless. |
Nightfox BloodRaven
SQUIDS.
43
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:44:12 -
[397] - Quote
Pvping in low sec for years.. honestly never ran into this "overpowering" hic problem.. and i fly an orthrus lol whatever if CCP wants to pander to one or two person who am I to say no .
Anyways.. fine if you nerf it but at least find me a use for the ship or else just get rid of it completely lol |
Cade Windstalker
1065
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:56:40 -
[398] - Quote
Kassimila wrote:I think you're missing the point that HICs cannot receive reps/assistance while pointing something. That IS the downside. Yes you are correct I didn't factor in links/heat. The statement CCP made was that this change was directed at SMALL GANG combat. I fail to see how a single HIC, shutting down a single targets MWD is too powerful. The entire role of the ship is to be tackle, and they are taking some of that away. All because the player base is too dense to bring a couple ECM ships to take care of the problem. The Lachesis in fact can point further, and just damp out the HIC. So I don't get this 'it doesn't have a role' BS.
In regards to the Lachesis/Arazu, it won't be used any more, or any less because of this change. It has Damps, it has a what 80k long point with republic heat/skills/etc? HICs don't get that. Most small gang stuff happens between 0-30km, so people bring ships that are good at those ranges. Lachs/Huggins are good for long range big fleets like Cerbs for example. Fleets where the HICs are near useless.
It's not that the Gallente Recons don't have a potential role, it's that in practice the HIC overshadows them completely. The extra things the Recons bring to the table aren't enough to put them above HICs, which bring significantly more.
As to HICs not being able to receive reps, in a small gang situation that's not much of a downside. You can local-tank a HIC better than almost any other similarly sized ship except a T3C, and those things are ridiculous and have some of the best tank any sub-cap period. Shooting a HIC, even one with a point active, is a pretty much losing proposition for a small gang. Either the HIC has a local tank and will take forever to die, or it's brick-fit and will be able to either survive until its point target is dead or swap out with a buddy and get repped back up in a few cycles.
If you're correct and the Gallente Recons don't get any more use because of this then either:
- the folks complaining about how well long-scrams counter Nano gangs are exaggerating and the long-scram isn't *that* required.
- The Gallente Recons, or Recons in general, need some kind of love or attention.
- The HIC was only being used because it offered such a fantastic combination of traits and at worst the nerf hasn't significantly hurt it, or at best its use will just slip out of the long-scram role and still otherwise see a healthy amount of use. In either case the nerf is still justified by HICs overshadowing long-scram focused ships and the former point about the Recons potentially needing some love may be true.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2838
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 23:19:43 -
[399] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range. Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't? We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago. I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better". In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak?
It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC.
The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
9
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 23:39:07 -
[400] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range. Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't? We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago. I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better". In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak? It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC. The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.
"Primary is the lachesis. Blap. Oh man I was scrammed for 5 seconds there that was close". The issue isn't HICs the issue is Lachesis/Arazu aren't that good. Curse/Rook however are amazing. |
|
Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 23:51:25 -
[401] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Cade, I don't disagree with you. The solution is to buff the Lachesis and Arazu up to 37-40km scram range and lower the HIC's down to 27-30km scram range. Why? What does this solve that the current changes don't? We had the current 35km with heat limit for ages before the HIC suddenly got the ability to scram targets a year ago. I'm not saying I think you're necessarily wrong, but there needs to be more of an argument behind a claim like this than just "nah, I think this way would be better". In short, what substantively changes with the current reductions vs your proposed up/down tweak? It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC. The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.
HIC range was too long and has always been OP, giving it to lach would be stupid, period. |
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
9
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 23:56:11 -
[402] - Quote
Tomoko Sunji wrote:
HIC range was too long and has always been OP, giving it to lach would be stupid, period.
Is that based on your EXTENSIVE experience flying a cyno heron?
https://zkillboard.com/character/96294582/ |
Cade Windstalker
1065
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:45:24 -
[403] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:It helps control the problem of risk averse kiters sitting out at 45km and being difficult to lock down. Right now, we have those types complaining that the HIC's combination of 37.5km scram, low speed, and good tank is overpowering. The solution they advocated is to reduce that scram range down to roughly 21km, while leaving the ship with low speed and good tank. The gives the kiters almost twice as much safety zone against a HIC.
The solution you have offered is that the relatively fragile, relatively slow Lachesis, with 35km range (with max skills and heat) will fill the gap. It does not. At least extend the max range for the scram, with Heat, up to around 40km.
Could you explain why ~5km of difference is so significant when the Lach/Arazu have relatively similar speeds to HICs (the Lach being faster than all but the Broadsword, which it ties with) and the potential damage increase that a kiting setup gets from sitting 5km closer is fairly minimal?
What's special about this ~40km breakpoint in your view? |
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1659
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 01:56:54 -
[404] - Quote
Removed a thread linking a killboard.
ISD Max Trix
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2560
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 02:32:22 -
[405] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:it is a scram bonused ship requiring very intensive skills, high costs and significant downsides _ like no drone bay.
Try training graviton physics 5 to fly an arazu. Recons already get either cloak or don't appear on scanner so they have a way of getting close that HICs do not. Let's give HICs one of those abilities perhaps? None of those downsides is remotely enough to offset the massive scram range, especially when you compare it to the actual scram-range bonused ships. Compared to an Arazu or a Lachesis a HIC has:
- Way more HP and a generally better tank
- Better scram and point range
- Infini-point
- better DPS
- More fitting space AND slots
- And can get better cap and/or equal or better speed
- The ability to deploy a bubble in Null and WHs
On the flip side the Arazu and Lachesis get...
- The ability to cloak (complete with targeting delay) or be D-scan immune (worthless if already on same grid)
- More bandwidth, slightly, and a bigger drone bay than *most* HICs... but not the Devoter for some reason.
- A Sensor Dampener bonus
No one is going to pick a Lachesis or Arazu over a HIC when the HIC has a better long-scram, better tank, and more DPS because those matter *way* more for any non-cloaky op than either the cloak or the d-scan immunity. Not to mention the ability to deploy a bubble to catch people if the fleet needs to setup a camp for some reason. Claiming that HICs somehow need to have a longer scram than a scram-focused EWar cruiser is a little ridiculous... I don't think you properly understand the ships and their bonuses, strengths and weaknesses.
Arazu has a scram out to 22k with a T2 scram. 27k with a faction scram. 57k T2 point. 72k faction point. That's overheated values because it can overheat its points / scrams. HIC cannot.
In comparison, the HICs get a 37.5k scram / point. You get 2 more k in range for a very expensive faction module so max to 39k.
There's no way you can claim that the HIC's have superior tackle because they don't. They are superior in having the longest scram but the downside is they cannot be repped with scram active - recons can.
The tank on the HIC is okay, an average tank is around 80k, Arazu is around 50k. But again Arazu can be repped and HIC cannot.
Lets not forget in addition to its point / scram bonuses, ability to be repped while tackling it also can warp covertly, which is one of the most useful abilities in game. It has a 5 second decloaking penalty which can be reduced to 3 seconds but in my experience (I'm in Aus so worst latency in the world) at 5 seconds you can almost always decloak, target and scram cruisers and over before they bug out unless they're already aligned. Before you even arrive the benefit of not appearing on dscan because your in Lach, or cloaked in a Arazu, is a huge bonus to tackling. You see nothing on dscan vs seeing a HIC on dscan - intel is life?
Then theres damping down your target so it can't touch you or friends while its tackled at range. Another big bonus.
No competition there because they're completely different ships for different situations.
Edit: Forgot skirmish command bursts. HIC gets no bonus. Arazu and Lach get even better.
Edit 2: Forgot Arazu's ability to drop and take covert cyno vs the HIC.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Cade Windstalker
1066
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 03:58:22 -
[406] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I don't think you properly understand the ships and their bonuses, strengths and weaknesses.
Arazu has a scram out to 22k with a T2 scram. 27k with a faction scram. 57k T2 point. 72k faction point. That's overheated values because it can overheat its points / scrams. HIC cannot.
In comparison, the HICs get a 37.5k scram / point. You get 2 more k in range for a very expensive faction module so max to 39k.
There's no way you can claim that the HIC's have superior tackle because they don't. They are superior in having the longest scram but the downside is they cannot be repped with scram active - recons can.
The tank on the HIC is okay, an average tank is around 80k, Arazu is around 50k. But again Arazu can be repped and HIC cannot.
Lets not forget in addition to its point / scram bonuses, ability to be repped while tackling it also can warp covertly, which is one of the most useful abilities in game. It has a 5 second decloaking penalty which can be reduced to 3 seconds but in my experience (I'm in Aus so worst latency in the world) at 5 seconds you can almost always decloak, target and scram cruisers and over before they bug out unless they're already aligned. Before you even arrive the benefit of not appearing on dscan because your in Lach, or cloaked in a Arazu, is a huge bonus to tackling. You see nothing on dscan vs seeing a HIC on dscan - intel is life?
Then theres damping down your target so it can't touch you or friends while its tackled at range. Another big bonus.
No competition there because they're completely different ships for different situations.
Edit: Forgot skirmish command bursts. HIC gets no bonus. Arazu and Lach get even better.
Edit 2: Forgot Arazu's ability to drop and take covert cyno vs the HIC.
Half these bonuses don't matter in a normal fleet. Cloak isn't useful in a normal fleet, and D-Scan immunity is questionable at best, especially against a kiting fleet that isn't going to be taking an initial engagement anywhere close to you anyway. Same for the long point, if you can't shut off a kiting fit's prop mod you're keeping him on grid for, at best, a few more seconds and you're probably not going to successfully kill him before he's either out of range or warped off. Covert cynos are only useful in a cloaky fleet, not for general fleet ops.
Those EHP numbers are ridiculous. You'll be lucky to break 30k on a T2 fit Ewar Cruiser because they're often armor tanked to maximize mid slots. A HIC on the other hand can break 100k EHP with light faction fittings and will take reps better than an EWar cruiser. Alternatively the HIC can fit a very strong local tank, still have better EHP than the Recon Cruiser, rep through DPS while someone else gets secondary tackle, and then cycle off its point and be back to full HP in a flash.
Warping cloaked is only really useful if you're scouting or with a cloaky fleet, in a general fleet op it's not that useful. Doubly so against a kitey fleet.
Also anyone who is doing any kind of kiting is likely to be fighting aligned and/or moving fast enough that you're going to have trouble warping to their current location, decloaking, and getting a scram on them before they burn out of range.
The point here, and what various people in this thread on both sides of this debate have been saying, is that there's little reason to choose a Recon over a HIC for general fleet ops. The HIC brings way more to the table that actually matters, in the form of tank, DPS, and scram range (with scrams being *way* more useful than damps in the current meta) than the Recons do. |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2561
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:01:34 -
[407] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I don't think you properly understand the ships and their bonuses, strengths and weaknesses.
Arazu has a scram out to 22k with a T2 scram. 27k with a faction scram. 57k T2 point. 72k faction point. That's overheated values because it can overheat its points / scrams. HIC cannot.
In comparison, the HICs get a 37.5k scram / point. You get 2 more k in range for a very expensive faction module so max to 39k.
There's no way you can claim that the HIC's have superior tackle because they don't. They are superior in having the longest scram but the downside is they cannot be repped with scram active - recons can.
The tank on the HIC is okay, an average tank is around 80k, Arazu is around 50k. But again Arazu can be repped and HIC cannot.
Lets not forget in addition to its point / scram bonuses, ability to be repped while tackling it also can warp covertly, which is one of the most useful abilities in game. It has a 5 second decloaking penalty which can be reduced to 3 seconds but in my experience (I'm in Aus so worst latency in the world) at 5 seconds you can almost always decloak, target and scram cruisers and over before they bug out unless they're already aligned. Before you even arrive the benefit of not appearing on dscan because your in Lach, or cloaked in a Arazu, is a huge bonus to tackling. You see nothing on dscan vs seeing a HIC on dscan - intel is life?
Then theres damping down your target so it can't touch you or friends while its tackled at range. Another big bonus.
No competition there because they're completely different ships for different situations.
Edit: Forgot skirmish command bursts. HIC gets no bonus. Arazu and Lach get even better.
Edit 2: Forgot Arazu's ability to drop and take covert cyno vs the HIC. Half these bonuses don't matter in a normal fleet. Cloak isn't useful in a normal fleet, and D-Scan immunity is questionable at best, especially against a kiting fleet that isn't going to be taking an initial engagement anywhere close to you anyway. Same for the long point, if you can't shut off a kiting fit's prop mod you're keeping him on grid for, at best, a few more seconds and you're probably not going to successfully kill him before he's either out of range or warped off. Covert cynos are only useful in a cloaky fleet, not for general fleet ops. Those EHP numbers are ridiculous. You'll be lucky to break 30k on a T2 fit Ewar Cruiser because they're often armor tanked to maximize mid slots. A HIC on the other hand can break 100k EHP with light faction fittings and will take reps better than an EWar cruiser. Alternatively the HIC can fit a very strong local tank, still have better EHP than the Recon Cruiser, rep through DPS while someone else gets secondary tackle, and then cycle off its point and be back to full HP in a flash. Warping cloaked is only really useful if you're scouting or with a cloaky fleet, in a general fleet op it's not that useful. Doubly so against a kitey fleet. Also anyone who is doing any kind of kiting is likely to be fighting aligned and/or moving fast enough that you're going to have trouble warping to their current location, decloaking, and getting a scram on them before they burn out of range. The point here, and what various people in this thread on both sides of this debate have been saying, is that there's little reason to choose a Recon over a HIC for general fleet ops. The HIC brings way more to the table that actually matters, in the form of tank, DPS, and scram range (with scrams being *way* more useful than damps in the current meta) than the Recons do. The point is you have no clue what you're talking about.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Kassimila
CryNet. Solyaris Chtonium
11
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:28:11 -
[408] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Half these bonuses don't matter in a normal fleet. Cloak isn't useful in a normal fleet, and D-Scan immunity is questionable at best, especially against a kiting fleet that isn't going to be taking an initial engagement anywhere close to you anyway. Same for the long point, if you can't shut off a kiting fit's prop mod you're keeping him on grid for, at best, a few more seconds and you're probably not going to successfully kill him before he's either out of range or warped off. Covert cynos are only useful in a cloaky fleet, not for general fleet ops.
Those EHP numbers are ridiculous. You'll be lucky to break 30k on a T2 fit Ewar Cruiser because they're often armor tanked to maximize mid slots. A HIC on the other hand can break 100k EHP with light faction fittings and will take reps better than an EWar cruiser. Alternatively the HIC can fit a very strong local tank, still have better EHP than the Recon Cruiser, rep through DPS while someone else gets secondary tackle, and then cycle off its point and be back to full HP in a flash.
Warping cloaked is only really useful if you're scouting or with a cloaky fleet, in a general fleet op it's not that useful. Doubly so against a kitey fleet.
Also anyone who is doing any kind of kiting is likely to be fighting aligned and/or moving fast enough that you're going to have trouble warping to their current location, decloaking, and getting a scram on them before they burn out of range.
The point here, and what various people in this thread on both sides of this debate have been saying, is that there's little reason to choose a Recon over a HIC for general fleet ops. The HIC brings way more to the table that actually matters, in the form of tank, DPS, and scram range (with scrams being *way* more useful than damps in the current meta) than the Recons do.
Like wut? Lachesis with 1600mm plate, x2 enam, and reactive armor hardener, x2 Trimark II = 54k EHP Fits a full rack of dual 150mm rails, x2 long points, x1 scram, 3 sensor damps, and a 50mn mwd. What's the issue? |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2566
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 11:16:11 -
[409] - Quote
Kassimila wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Half these bonuses don't matter in a normal fleet. Cloak isn't useful in a normal fleet, and D-Scan immunity is questionable at best, especially against a kiting fleet that isn't going to be taking an initial engagement anywhere close to you anyway. Same for the long point, if you can't shut off a kiting fit's prop mod you're keeping him on grid for, at best, a few more seconds and you're probably not going to successfully kill him before he's either out of range or warped off. Covert cynos are only useful in a cloaky fleet, not for general fleet ops.
Those EHP numbers are ridiculous. You'll be lucky to break 30k on a T2 fit Ewar Cruiser because they're often armor tanked to maximize mid slots. A HIC on the other hand can break 100k EHP with light faction fittings and will take reps better than an EWar cruiser. Alternatively the HIC can fit a very strong local tank, still have better EHP than the Recon Cruiser, rep through DPS while someone else gets secondary tackle, and then cycle off its point and be back to full HP in a flash.
Warping cloaked is only really useful if you're scouting or with a cloaky fleet, in a general fleet op it's not that useful. Doubly so against a kitey fleet.
Also anyone who is doing any kind of kiting is likely to be fighting aligned and/or moving fast enough that you're going to have trouble warping to their current location, decloaking, and getting a scram on them before they burn out of range.
The point here, and what various people in this thread on both sides of this debate have been saying, is that there's little reason to choose a Recon over a HIC for general fleet ops. The HIC brings way more to the table that actually matters, in the form of tank, DPS, and scram range (with scrams being *way* more useful than damps in the current meta) than the Recons do.
Like wut? Lachesis with 1600mm plate, x2 enam, and reactive armor hardener, x2 Trimark II = 54k EHP Fits a full rack of dual 150mm rails, x2 long points, x1 scram, 3 sensor damps, and a 50mn mwd. What's the issue? +1
50k Arazus been a staple tackler for covert ganking for years now. Covert Tengus too. Never had any complaints or been told to grab a HIC except for certain specialized ops. Arazu does a lot a HIC doesn't while HIC does a few that Arazu can't - bubble and infinipoint.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2839
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 13:18:55 -
[410] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: The point is you have no clue what you're talking about.
This has been amply demonstrated in each of the threads in this forum.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
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noone kun
Hisp Eto Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 15:50:23 -
[411] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote: Q:Will either of the scripted points keep caps from jumping gates? A: Yes, both the scrambling script and disruption script will stop capitals from jumping gates.
thats sick!
imo, jumpgate itself should be scrambled, as it contains jump engine, instead of ship that is trying to use jumpgate
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Cade Windstalker
1070
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 16:43:47 -
[412] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Kassimila wrote:Like wut? Lachesis with 1600mm plate, x2 enam, and reactive armor hardener, x2 Trimark II = 54k EHP Fits a full rack of dual 150mm rails, x2 long points, x1 scram, 3 sensor damps, and a 50mn mwd. What's the issue? +1 50k Arazus been a staple tackler for covert ganking for years now. Covert Tengus too. Never had any complaints or been told to grab a HIC except for certain specialized ops. Arazu does a lot a HIC doesn't while HIC does a few that Arazu can't - bubble and infinipoint.
Key words there, "covert ganking".
No where in any of this have I said Recons are bad for cloaky ops. If you're playing tag in a non-cloaky fleet (which the majority of fleets in the game are) with a nano-gang the extra scram range combined with the other things a HIC brings to the table are strictly better.
On top of that the same tank fitting on a Devoter has 30k more EHP, 33% better resists, and can still fit two WDFs and a 100mn AB with plenty of slots and options left to either be even tankier, deal more DPS than the Lach, or be faster than it. |
Nightfox BloodRaven
SQUIDS.
44
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 23:17:26 -
[413] - Quote
If you gonna nerf the HIC can you at least give it some drones.. and not just the devoter?
Thanks. |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2574
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 00:25:54 -
[414] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Kassimila wrote:Like wut? Lachesis with 1600mm plate, x2 enam, and reactive armor hardener, x2 Trimark II = 54k EHP Fits a full rack of dual 150mm rails, x2 long points, x1 scram, 3 sensor damps, and a 50mn mwd. What's the issue? +1 50k Arazus been a staple tackler for covert ganking for years now. Covert Tengus too. Never had any complaints or been told to grab a HIC except for certain specialized ops. Arazu does a lot a HIC doesn't while HIC does a few that Arazu can't - bubble and infinipoint. Key words there, "covert ganking". No where in any of this have I said Recons are bad for cloaky ops. If you're playing tag in a non-cloaky fleet (which the majority of fleets in the game are) with a nano-gang the extra scram range combined with the other things a HIC brings to the table are strictly better. On top of that the same tank fitting on a Devoter has 30k more EHP, 33% better resists, and can still fit two WDFs and a 100mn AB with plenty of slots and options left to either be even tankier, deal more DPS than the Lach, or be faster than it. In none cloaky fleet they're just as capable. You can get double the range on warp disrupt generator - 80k points are insane. Devoter may have 30% more ehp but as already said it can't be repped while tackling. That's a massive penalty in fleets. That cannot be understated. In fleet in tackler DPS means ****.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Cade Windstalker
1075
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Posted - 2017.03.12 02:30:51 -
[415] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:In none cloaky fleet they're just as capable. You can get double the range on warp disrupt generator - 80k points are insane. Devoter may have 30% more ehp but as already said it can't be repped while tackling. That's a massive penalty in fleets. That cannot be understated. In fleet in tackler DPS means ****.
A HIC with the same fit has like 55% more EHP compared to a Recon, and that's just with the same fit. You can easily get a HIC to 100k if you fit for tank or dip into Faction mods a little. Tackle DPS doesn't mean much in a large fleet, but in a small one a ship that tackles better and brings more DPS and tank is a solidly better choice than one that offers less of both.
Also in that sort of small fleet context the strong local rep tank you can easily fit on a HIC is also very strong and significantly mitigates any disadvantage it might have by being unable to receive reps since it can pretty easily tank until someone else can get point, and the short cycle on the scripted point makes it unlikely that you'll lose your ship due to this, at worst you'll lose point.
In a larger fleet the lack of reps matters more, but the lack of EHP on the Lach hurts it more, and besides this change seems to be more focused on smaller fleet contexts.
In either case, and to sort of circle this whole thing back, if this change doesn't open up space for the Lach and Arazu then those ships probably have a bigger problem if they aren't capable of filling the long-scram role in at least some of the places the HIC was previously preferable.
Your original argument was that this wouldn't change Recon usage, if the Recons are so good then why can't they simply step in to fill the role the HICs are vacating? |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2575
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 03:16:33 -
[416] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:In none cloaky fleet they're just as capable. You can get double the range on warp disrupt generator - 80k points are insane. Devoter may have 30% more ehp but as already said it can't be repped while tackling. That's a massive penalty in fleets. That cannot be understated. In fleet in tackler DPS means ****. A HIC with the same fit has like 55% more EHP compared to a Recon, and that's just with the same fit. You can easily get a HIC to 100k if you fit for tank or dip into Faction mods a little. Tackle DPS doesn't mean much in a large fleet, but in a small one a ship that tackles better and brings more DPS and tank is a solidly better choice than one that offers less of both. Also in that sort of small fleet context the strong local rep tank you can easily fit on a HIC is also very strong and significantly mitigates any disadvantage it might have by being unable to receive reps since it can pretty easily tank until someone else can get point, and the short cycle on the scripted point makes it unlikely that you'll lose your ship due to this, at worst you'll lose point. In a larger fleet the lack of reps matters more, but the lack of EHP on the Lach hurts it more, and besides this change seems to be more focused on smaller fleet contexts. In either case, and to sort of circle this whole thing back, if this change doesn't open up space for the Lach and Arazu then those ships probably have a bigger problem if they aren't capable of filling the long-scram role in at least some of the places the HIC was previously preferable. Your original argument was that this wouldn't change Recon usage, if the Recons are so good then why can't they simply step in to fill the role the HICs are vacating? An Arazu with reps can have infinite HP. Local reps when your primaried and you're immune to RR = death. I've had 2k DPS SB on Onyx and tanked a small fleet of T3D but later melted to a med fleet while waiting for my generator to turn off. Arazu may have less tank but it can get instant reps. If you're unlucky in a HIC and get primaried right after cycle with local reps you're (1) don't have a lot of buffer to get through (2) exploding.
Something you're not thinking about is ship diversity, the Arazu / Lachesis already has a role as a long range tackler. If you want to tag a ship at 60k you do it in Arazu or its baby brother the EAS version, while his friends warp off to ping or safe. It doesn't scram but that's why we also have inties and other small fast tackle. The Gallante recons also have damps which also boost tankability and add to their versatility.
And let's not forget that because the Arazu / Lach points / scrams can be bonused and overheated the HIC only gets max 9km extra on range of its generator.
What I'm saying is recons don't need to step up to take the HICs place because the Gallante recon already has a firmly established role and so does the HIC. Those roles are different and unique to each hull.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Cade Windstalker
1075
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Posted - 2017.03.12 07:25:17 -
[417] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:And let's not forget that because the Arazu / Lach points / scrams can be bonused and overheated the HIC only gets max 9km extra on range of its generator.
What I'm saying is recons don't need to step up to take the HICs place because the Gallante recon already has a firmly established role and so does the HIC. Those roles are different and unique to each hull.
It's actually 5km, the HIC maxes out just short of 40km, the Lach with heat and Bursts goes out to 35 with a faction scram.
That the HIC and the Lach are different ships and fill different roles isn't in dispute here. The HIC has only been able to fill the role of dedicated Scram-monkey for about a year though, and in that time it's become fairly dominant, because it brings a lot of desirable things to the table that the Lach doesn't.
That's not me or, I think, anyone else saying the Lach or Arazu are worthless ships (though personally I do feel it's a little underwhelming compared to other Recons) but if you're looking for a long range Scram boat right now on TQ the things the Lach brings to the table aren't really enough to put it over the HIC.
The smaller the fleet the better the HIC does, and a larger fleet can afford to just bring both and use the HIC for scrams and the Lach for damps and long-point, when the Lach by bonuses and historically should be the better ship for projecting Scrams.
I'm only saying that the Gallente Recons might need a buff if they can't step into this long range Scram role because it's something they're bonused for and if they can't do it in *most* of the cases a HIC does now then that suggests a more systemic issue. Either the 5km difference matters a lot more than anyone here has presented, or the ship in general is a bit lacking and needs a buff. I don't find either of these *that* likely. |
Faydhe
SECURITY SQUAD
27
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Posted - 2017.03.13 05:36:10 -
[418] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Questions & Answers
Q:Will either of the scripted points keep caps from jumping gates? A: Yes, both the scrambling script and disruption script will stop capitals from jumping gates.
Freighter & Jump Freighter as well?
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Decaneos
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
155
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Posted - 2017.03.13 21:26:51 -
[419] - Quote
Another nail in the coffin for brawling fleets. Instead we will just watch kitey gangs not killing anyone cause there to scared to get into damage range |
Maulthia
The Milkmen Empyreus
24
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Posted - 2017.03.14 03:03:36 -
[420] - Quote
Yes, buff nano gangs. Because they definitely needed it. Extracting HIC 5 because you've now made them 100% useless, thank you. Out of curiosity, do you guys even understand how your game works? Because this is one of the worst changes I've ever seen you come out with. |
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elitatwo
Dicker Quick and Hyde Defense Attorneys O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1633
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Posted - 2017.03.14 08:19:37 -
[421] - Quote
Maulthia wrote:Yes, buff nano gangs. Because they definitely needed it. Extracting HIC 5 because you've now made them 100% useless, thank you. Out of curiosity, do you guys even understand how your game works? Because this is one of the worst changes I've ever seen you come out with.
Translation:
*tears* I will never admit that I cannot pvp without 5000 virgin buddies that need to climax for their first time when they can shoot one boat. And I will not admit that I cannot git gud at EVE. Please change EVE so I don't have to followed by more tears.
/Translation
No comment.
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2602
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 10:31:19 -
[422] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Maulthia wrote:Yes, buff nano gangs. Because they definitely needed it. Extracting HIC 5 because you've now made them 100% useless, thank you. Out of curiosity, do you guys even understand how your game works? Because this is one of the worst changes I've ever seen you come out with. Translation: *tears* I will never admit that I cannot pvp without 5000 virgin buddies that need to climax for their first time when they can shoot one boat. And I will not admit that I cannot git gud at EVE. Please change EVE so I don't have to followed by more tears. /Translation No comment. They just did. And yeah pretty much sums up the HIC change nicely. Were you the Nerf HIC crowds spokesperson?
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Cade Windstalker
1089
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Posted - 2017.03.14 14:28:15 -
[423] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:elitatwo wrote:Maulthia wrote:Yes, buff nano gangs. Because they definitely needed it. Extracting HIC 5 because you've now made them 100% useless, thank you. Out of curiosity, do you guys even understand how your game works? Because this is one of the worst changes I've ever seen you come out with. Translation: *tears* I will never admit that I cannot pvp without 5000 virgin buddies that need to climax for their first time when they can shoot one boat. And I will not admit that I cannot git gud at EVE. Please change EVE so I don't have to followed by more tears. /Translation No comment. They just did. And yeah pretty much sums up the HIC change nicely. Were you the Nerf HIC crowds spokesperson?
I'm honestly not sure elitatwo is for or against anything besides their own amusement and the trolling potential of any given thread. |
Lmagno
EvE Most Wanted Darwinism.
9
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Posted - 2017.03.14 14:40:11 -
[424] - Quote
Thank you CCP,
Lets Make Arazu great again \o/
And please dont let the infinite point overload, otherwise this balace is useless.
PPL can still fit 2 modules in a HIC. |
Kagi Anzomi
CK-0FF Reverberation Project
25
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Posted - 2017.03.14 23:05:52 -
[425] - Quote
Lmagno wrote:Thank you CCP, Lets Make Arazu great again \o/ And please dont let the infinite point overload, otherwise this balace is useless. PPL can still fit 2 modules in a HIC. HICs arent meant to fight frigates, PPL using hics with 100MN AB can easily kill any frig at the game. This is a PvP Game, we already had bubbles, cloackers, other frigs to swerve when we flying small ships. Kitting is the only way small gangs can go inside large alliances territory and fight. https://zkillboard.com/kill/60461337/For those who dont think 100MN AB HICS are oppressive
So you talk about how HICs are so oppressive and can kill any frigate, then you link a kill losing a frigate to a supercarrier? How does that prove anything about HICs? |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2617
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 09:00:41 -
[426] - Quote
Kagi Anzomi wrote:Lmagno wrote:Thank you CCP, Lets Make Arazu great again \o/ And please dont let the infinite point overload, otherwise this balace is useless. PPL can still fit 2 modules in a HIC. HICs arent meant to fight frigates, PPL using hics with 100MN AB can easily kill any frig at the game. This is a PvP Game, we already had bubbles, cloackers, other frigs to swerve when we flying small ships. Kitting is the only way small gangs can go inside large alliances territory and fight. https://zkillboard.com/kill/60461337/For those who dont think 100MN AB HICS are oppressive So you talk about how HICs are so oppressive and can kill any frigate, then you link a kill losing a frigate to a supercarrier? How does that prove anything about HICs? He also doesn't realise the only way CCP can make Arazus great again for him is to send someone to his house who understands how to exploit 80km+ points, covert ops cloak and superdampners, overheating, command bursts and remote reppable pointing and scramming bonuses and abilities which of course no HIC gets.
Until someone teaches him that his Arazu is gonna be shite... Or so he'll think
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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light heaven
JUST SET TIMES Fraternity.
9
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Posted - 2017.03.26 06:02:00 -
[427] - Quote
Focused Warp Disruption Script has Warp Scrambling effect for micro jump field generators. Do this a bug? |
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