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Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
45
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Posted - 2017.02.25 02:09:07 -
[1] - Quote
If you've been keeping up with eve geography, you may have noticed the massive stockpiles of supercapitals and titans being churned out every day from major alliances. There is a certain worry within the community that this may put pressure on smaller alliances and speed the death of eve.
I propose a new kind of ship/mechanic that could perhaps add a little more flavour to the massive capital slugfests brewing on the distant horizon.
Boarding mechanics might be a great way to elegantly nerf capitals, while adding a new dimension to eve. It could take the form of a module, or a ship, or perhaps all ships can do it, or maybe certain ships get boarding role bonuses, etc. There could even be a new set of skills to go with it. Militants could become a new trade item in the eve economy.
Boarding would be a way to disable, disrupt, or destroy large ships. The exact mechanics would have to be refined over a long period of discussion and testing, but the general idea is have it be a way to counter the effectiveness of capital ships. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5290
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Posted - 2017.02.25 02:58:18 -
[2] - Quote
Please search the other five hundred times this has been suggested, then feel bad for reposting an awful idea that has been discussed to death. |
Cade Windstalker
910
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Posted - 2017.02.25 03:35:35 -
[3] - Quote
This has been proposed, in like six different flavors.
It doesn't make sense in Lore, a Titan has like thirteen THOUSAND crew and you would need to run for a couple of kilometers to reach anything vital, let alone take over the ship.
It would not be balanced. If you can kill a Capital more effectively with sub-caps than with caps then people will stop bringing caps, especially because most of the people with cap fleets also have lots and lots of bodies to throw at each other.
There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Shadow Cartel
11567
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Posted - 2017.02.25 03:39:26 -
[4] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. Quoting for emphasis.
How did you Veterans start?
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Cade Windstalker
910
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Posted - 2017.02.25 03:41:58 -
[5] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. Quoting for emphasis.
Or, to put it as it's more commonly said: "You can't patch stupid."
Most people just don't think to include the idea of patching stupid *into* the game in this. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3866
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Posted - 2017.02.25 05:49:54 -
[6] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:This has been proposed, in like six different flavors.
It doesn't make sense in Lore, a Titan has like thirteen THOUSAND crew and you would need to run for a couple of kilometers to reach anything vital, let alone take over the ship.
It would not be balanced. If you can kill a Capital more effectively with sub-caps than with caps then people will stop bringing caps, especially because most of the people with cap fleets also have lots and lots of bodies to throw at each other.
There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. Add close to a 0 onto that crew for the titan :P
However Cap fleets once they hit a certain scale do go against the EVE idea that bigger isn't better, and that is a long term problem for the game especially as certain groups get more and more supers over time.
This particular answer isn't the correct solution, but it is a valid problem it is trying to answer. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3832
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Posted - 2017.02.25 06:08:38 -
[7] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:This has been proposed, in like six different flavors.
It doesn't make sense in Lore, a Titan has like thirteen THOUSAND crew and you would need to run for a couple of kilometers to reach anything vital, let alone take over the ship.
It would not be balanced. If you can kill a Capital more effectively with sub-caps than with caps then people will stop bringing caps, especially because most of the people with cap fleets also have lots and lots of bodies to throw at each other.
There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. Add close to a 0 onto that crew for the titan :P However Cap fleets once they hit a certain scale do go against the EVE idea that bigger isn't better, and that is a long term problem for the game especially as certain groups get more and more supers over time. This particular answer isn't the correct solution, but it is a valid problem it is trying to answer.
the size it takes to get to that level now that carriers have been fixed is rarely seen and until you get to that level you need sub caps or you're screwed.
though i feel removing HAW would be a good move i still don't get why these were added at all particularly when they made carriers a pure anti sub cap ship
BLOPS Hauler
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
191
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Posted - 2017.02.25 08:15:41 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:This has been proposed, in like six different flavors.
It doesn't make sense in Lore, a Titan has like thirteen THOUSAND crew and you would need to run for a couple of kilometers to reach anything vital, let alone take over the ship.
It would not be balanced. If you can kill a Capital more effectively with sub-caps than with caps then people will stop bringing caps, especially because most of the people with cap fleets also have lots and lots of bodies to throw at each other.
There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. Add close to a 0 onto that crew for the titan :P However Cap fleets once they hit a certain scale do go against the EVE idea that bigger isn't better, and that is a long term problem for the game especially as certain groups get more and more supers over time. This particular answer isn't the correct solution, but it is a valid problem it is trying to answer. the size it takes to get to that level now that carriers have been fixed is rarely seen and until you get to that level you need sub caps or you're screwed. though i feel removing HAW would be a good move i still don't get why these were added at all particularly when they made carriers a pure anti sub cap ship they add HAW to dread because they remove Dread's ability to blap with XL weapon when they nerf their application by large margin.
Carrier role have nothing to do with Dread's weapon system... |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
740
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Posted - 2017.02.25 11:11:14 -
[9] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:However Cap fleets once they hit a certain scale do go against the EVE idea that bigger isn't better, and that is a long term problem for the game especially as certain groups get more and more supers over time.
This particular answer isn't the correct solution, but it is a valid problem it is trying to answer.
It's not really the problem that needs fixed though. Eve needs more reasons to NOT be part of the super ultra mega coalitions and alliances. Too many people want to be part of the biggest fishes in the sea with too few reasons to NOT be. Even with all the changes that have been made to try and break the map up more, there are still not enough game reasons to NOT be part of the largest biggest groups, except personal choice really, because all those changes still haven't addressed that core issue.
No, I don't have a good answer for it either. But if that issue were able to be addressed, then this issue would be a long way towards a non issue.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3834
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Posted - 2017.02.25 11:26:29 -
[10] - Quote
unidenify wrote: they add HAW to dread because they remove Dread's ability to blap with XL weapon when they nerf their application by large margin.
Carrier role have nothing to do with Dread's weapon system...
the carriers role is strictly anti sub cap. the problem is HAW do that job better in almost every way unless you have enough carriers to overwhelm the enemy with fighters.
if they were going to make carriers dedicated anti sub cap ships they did not need to replace the ability for dreads to blap sub caps.
what happened was HAW and the idea for carriers were thought up and implemented individually rather than taking each other into account
BLOPS Hauler
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Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
71
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Posted - 2017.02.25 14:20:10 -
[11] - Quote
Lore wise: you have to sit there pumping thousands of troops into their ship, I'm not crazy about the idea
Gameplay wise: the best counter to a capital ship is removing its support. |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
151
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Posted - 2017.02.25 14:27:35 -
[12] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:This has been proposed, in like six different flavors.
It doesn't make sense in Lore, a Titan has like thirteen THOUSAND crew and you would need to run for a couple of kilometers to reach anything vital, let alone take over the ship.
It would not be balanced. If you can kill a Capital more effectively with sub-caps than with caps then people will stop bringing caps, especially because most of the people with cap fleets also have lots and lots of bodies to throw at each other.
There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP.
Depends. If they're blue berries 13,000 of them wouldn't be able to stop a 16 man squad in dust514. It's entirely plausible. |
Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
71
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Posted - 2017.02.25 14:28:45 -
[13] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:This has been proposed, in like six different flavors.
It doesn't make sense in Lore, a Titan has like thirteen THOUSAND crew and you would need to run for a couple of kilometers to reach anything vital, let alone take over the ship.
It would not be balanced. If you can kill a Capital more effectively with sub-caps than with caps then people will stop bringing caps, especially because most of the people with cap fleets also have lots and lots of bodies to throw at each other.
There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. Depends. If they're blue berries 13,000 of them wouldn't be able to stop a 16 man squad in dust514. It's entirely plausible.
The hours spent running around hallways and engineering decks aren't very plausible... |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3834
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Posted - 2017.02.25 14:55:38 -
[14] - Quote
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:This has been proposed, in like six different flavors.
It doesn't make sense in Lore, a Titan has like thirteen THOUSAND crew and you would need to run for a couple of kilometers to reach anything vital, let alone take over the ship.
It would not be balanced. If you can kill a Capital more effectively with sub-caps than with caps then people will stop bringing caps, especially because most of the people with cap fleets also have lots and lots of bodies to throw at each other.
There is no mechanic that is going to let a small entity heroically win against a larger one other than incompetence on the part of the larger entity or extreme competence on the part of the smaller one. Neither of those can be enshrined in game mechanics by CCP. Depends. If they're blue berries 13,000 of them wouldn't be able to stop a 16 man squad in dust514. It's entirely plausible. The hours spent running around hallways and engineering decks aren't very plausible...
if we are still going lore don't forget that the titans are sectioned off into compartments that can seal them selves off and are resilient enough to survive a titans reactor going critical.
BLOPS Hauler
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Vic Jefferson
Knights of Poitot Rote Kapelle
1172
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Posted - 2017.02.25 17:21:10 -
[15] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:However Cap fleets once they hit a certain scale do go against the EVE idea that bigger isn't better, and that is a long term problem for the game especially as certain groups get more and more supers over time.
This particular answer isn't the correct solution, but it is a valid problem it is trying to answer. It's not really the problem that needs fixed though. Eve needs more reasons to NOT be part of the super ultra mega coalitions and alliances. Too many people want to be part of the biggest fishes in the sea with too few reasons to NOT be. Even with all the changes that have been made to try and break the map up more, there are still not enough game reasons to NOT be part of the largest biggest groups, except personal choice really, because all those changes still haven't addressed that core issue. No, I don't have a good answer for it either. But if that issue were able to be addressed, then this issue would be a long way towards a non issue.
This. Very much this.
If they want to have more smaller groups, they need to look at supporting them with bottom up income options in all areas of space.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3842
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Posted - 2017.02.26 00:13:42 -
[16] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:However Cap fleets once they hit a certain scale do go against the EVE idea that bigger isn't better, and that is a long term problem for the game especially as certain groups get more and more supers over time.
This particular answer isn't the correct solution, but it is a valid problem it is trying to answer. It's not really the problem that needs fixed though. Eve needs more reasons to NOT be part of the super ultra mega coalitions and alliances. Too many people want to be part of the biggest fishes in the sea with too few reasons to NOT be. Even with all the changes that have been made to try and break the map up more, there are still not enough game reasons to NOT be part of the largest biggest groups, except personal choice really, because all those changes still haven't addressed that core issue. No, I don't have a good answer for it either. But if that issue were able to be addressed, then this issue would be a long way towards a non issue. This. Very much this. If they want to have more smaller groups, they need to look at supporting them with bottom up income options in all areas of space.
except any form of income they can exploit will be exploited even further for large groups...
BLOPS Hauler
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1004
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:29:17 -
[17] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:This. Very much this.
If they want to have more smaller groups, they need to look at supporting them with bottom up income options in all areas of space.
Proposing something that I know will be hated, but make gate travel more like it is with wormholes with mass restrictions (null/low only, more restrictive for null) and nerf cynos even more. That would go a long way to fixing the cancer that is sov null.
Also make moons deplete over time. |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:22:36 -
[18] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote: Eve needs more reasons to NOT be part of the super ultra mega coalitions and alliances. Too many people want to be part of the biggest fishes in the sea with too few reasons to NOT be. Even with all the changes that have been made to try and break the map up more, there are still not enough game reasons to NOT be part of the largest biggest groups, except personal choice really, because all those changes still haven't addressed that core issue.
No, I don't have a good answer for it either. But if that issue were able to be addressed, then this issue would be a long way towards a non issue.
What about removing the sovereignty skill? Having 12600 people in one corp sounds awesome, and probably a main reason for people want to be in the biggest corp/alliance is simply because they can. Also, is there anything that limits how many corps can be in an alliance? That could be limited by another skill, let's say lvl1 allows you to form an alliance with 4 corps, and each level doubles it.
I know a lot of big corps and alliances wouldn't like this change, but if we want to make the map more interesting, then this is in my opinion the easiest way to do it. Another way would be a corp/alliance tax that exponentially increase with the number of players involved, so only the most efficient could stay big.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3849
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:42:46 -
[19] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote:Kenrailae wrote: Eve needs more reasons to NOT be part of the super ultra mega coalitions and alliances. Too many people want to be part of the biggest fishes in the sea with too few reasons to NOT be. Even with all the changes that have been made to try and break the map up more, there are still not enough game reasons to NOT be part of the largest biggest groups, except personal choice really, because all those changes still haven't addressed that core issue.
No, I don't have a good answer for it either. But if that issue were able to be addressed, then this issue would be a long way towards a non issue.
What about removing the sovereignty skill? Having 12600 people in one corp sounds awesome, and probably a main reason for people want to be in the biggest corp/alliance is simply because they can. Also, is there anything that limits how many corps can be in an alliance? That could be limited by another skill, let's say lvl1 allows you to form an alliance with 4 corps, and each level doubles it. I know a lot of big corps and alliances wouldn't like this change, but if we want to make the map more interesting, then this is in my opinion the easiest way to do it. Another way would be a corp/alliance tax that exponentially increase with the number of players involved, so only the most efficient could stay big.
this would do nothing but making managing large groups slightly more inconvenient
BLOPS Hauler
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3849
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:44:05 -
[20] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:This. Very much this.
If they want to have more smaller groups, they need to look at supporting them with bottom up income options in all areas of space. Proposing something that I know will be hated, but make gate travel more like it is with wormholes with mass restrictions (null/low only, more restrictive for null) and nerf cynos even more. That would go a long way to fixing the cancer that is sov null.
will do nothing to lower the size of groups
will make taking an established groups space even harder
will have adverse effects on all of eve not just intended groups
will force the meta further in to cruisers and frigs
BLOPS Hauler
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
741
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Posted - 2017.02.27 02:18:23 -
[21] - Quote
Imposing arbitrary limits has never worked with Eve, and won't work on this now. Placing a cap on corps or alliances just means there will be more alliances in each coalition. Trying to impose something as easily gameable as gate mass limits will only result in people playing them like wormholes get played to try and trap people in.
Same goes for cost limits. Unless they are hard limits like only 'X' number of ships of this sort allowed in game, things like that just don't work, because Eve players either use whatever work around is at hand or look CCP dead in the eye and say 'challenge accepted.'
No, something like this would need to be a massive shift from what we've grown well accustomed to, resulting in there not being a billion reasons to be in the big group and 2 reasons to not be. What exactly that would be..... difficult to say.
Could go into speculation about try this or try that or do this.... but it's really all bark and no bite at this point, because any change of this magnitude is without doubt going to make alot of poeple angry.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3849
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Posted - 2017.02.27 02:26:37 -
[22] - Quote
as some one who has spent the majority of his time the last four years in small groups i never understood why people thought it was wrong that numbers provided an advantage....
is it just because they want to be able to make a group that can do all the same things rather than have to join one already set up or have to work their ass off for it?
BLOPS Hauler
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
741
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Posted - 2017.02.27 02:29:56 -
[23] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:as some one who has spent the majority of his time the last four years in small groups i never understood why people thought it was wrong that numbers provided an advantage....
is it just because they want to be able to make a group that can do all the same things rather than have to join one already set up or have to work their ass off for it?
Because there is a point where even the the most hard working your ass off for it mentality simply can't do anything next to the numbers game.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Cade Windstalker
931
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Posted - 2017.02.27 03:34:42 -
[24] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:as some one who has spent the majority of his time the last four years in small groups i never understood why people thought it was wrong that numbers provided an advantage....
is it just because they want to be able to make a group that can do all the same things rather than have to join one already set up or have to work their ass off for it? Because there is a point where even the the most hard working your ass off for it mentality simply can't do anything next to the numbers game. EDIT: misread your post. It's also not a something wrong with numbers providing advantage, thing, it's a 'there are very few reasons to NOT be part of the numbers' thing, except your personal preference. So that's where most people end up. Now we have what 10, MAYBE, major entities in the game, and half of those there is definite argument on whether they should be included in the list? That's not healthy for the game.
The problem here isn't that you can't be more elite than a large and kinda sloppy entity, it's that all of the large entities are full of fairly competent and elite pilots who mostly know what they're doing. The days when a 50 man HAC fleet can whelp a 400 man BS fleet are long gone because all of those BS pilots either quit the game, went back to High Sec and stayed there, or picked themselves up, dusted themselves off, and went off to learn how to be just as badass as the guys in those HACs.
The whole small elite force vs massive army of schmucks only actually works if your enemy is actually made up of schmucks, and that's just not the case these days. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3849
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Posted - 2017.02.27 04:24:17 -
[25] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:as some one who has spent the majority of his time the last four years in small groups i never understood why people thought it was wrong that numbers provided an advantage....
is it just because they want to be able to make a group that can do all the same things rather than have to join one already set up or have to work their ass off for it? Because there is a point where even the the most hard working your ass off for it mentality simply can't do anything next to the numbers game. EDIT: misread your post. It's also not a something wrong with numbers providing advantage, thing, it's a 'there are very few reasons to NOT be part of the numbers' thing, except your personal preference. So that's where most people end up. Now we have what 10, MAYBE, major entities in the game, and half of those there is definite argument on whether they should be included in the list? That's not healthy for the game.
but why is that bad? how is it not healthy?
and those few large entities are all made up of smaller ones working together. Even when the CFC owned half of null and every one just lumped everyone together in the CFC as a goon it was still full of smaller groups with their own goals and objectives. They are not just super blobs of people all after the same thing.
it is not that the game forces you to be a part of a large group the game simply heavily rewards groups of any size working with each other.
BLOPS Hauler
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
741
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Posted - 2017.02.27 04:39:48 -
[26] - Quote
In your usual fashion you ignore 95% of what is said and pick at one thing you think you can argue with, while blatantly ignoring that you're completely agreeing with the main point to begin with. Thank you for agreeing that the game extremely rewards large group mentality while not giving enough reason to NOT be part of a large group. So have fun arguing with whatever it is you think you're arguing with.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3849
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Posted - 2017.02.27 04:52:16 -
[27] - Quote
but why is that bad? how is it not healthy?
why should the game bend itself around to give advantages to NOT working with other groups of players
BLOPS Hauler
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3871
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:03:33 -
[28] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:but why is that bad? how is it not healthy?
why should the game bend itself around to give advantages to NOT working with other groups of players There is a large difference between advantage, and untouchable. See CCP's change to Titan's DD's now giving cap drain in a radius, to stop the super blob. There are a number of other mechanics I am aware of from various other games that could be introduced that would do similar things to force the larger group to be better organised to take full advantage of their numbers. If they succeed at taking advantage of those things, great for them, but right now the super blob mechanic is self reinforcing due to game mechanics. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3849
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Posted - 2017.02.27 08:39:28 -
[29] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:but why is that bad? how is it not healthy?
why should the game bend itself around to give advantages to NOT working with other groups of players There is a large difference between advantage, and untouchable. See CCP's change to Titan's DD's now giving cap drain in a radius, to stop the super blob. There are a number of other mechanics I am aware of from various other games that could be introduced that would do similar things to force the larger group to be better organised to take full advantage of their numbers. If they succeed at taking advantage of those things, great for them, but right now the super blob mechanic is self reinforcing due to game mechanics.
well yeah but he is talking about being a part of large groups not being a part of large fleets. I have loved all the changes they have made that force your to be more organized in larger fleets from MJFD to relatively small burst ranges for links. however this is a separate issue then a bigger group having better logistics and economy than a small one or a bigger group able to provide more content than a small one.
but it could be that i'm not actually talking about what you two are and am misunderstanding
would also like to add that large groups are far from untouchable. if anything that is one of the few advantages that goes to a small group if they are smart. its relatively easy to disrupt day to day operations of a large group if you want to but if you try to target a small group they can easily evade you and hit you when you turn around. me and about 6 other guys used to do this harassing groups around scalding and the drone regions.
BLOPS Hauler
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 17:33:45 -
[30] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:will do nothing to lower the size of groups
will make taking an established groups space even harder
will have adverse effects on all of eve not just intended groups
will force the meta further in to cruisers and frigs
Forcing the meta more into smaller ships is one of the goals.
And this would take another step at limiting blobbing, which should be a goal too |
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