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Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
50
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Posted - 2017.03.05 18:25:46 -
[1] - Quote
Yesterday I jumped out of my expensive implants and went on a public roam. After the roam I got back into my implants asap for faster training. That was the smartest thing I could do at the time.
Today, I heard there's another public fleet, I didn't know about it yesterday so couldn't plan ahead. But there's a timer until I can clone jump again. I've trained up the skills to reduce the timer, but it still means I can't go on today's roam without risking my expensive clone, and that's not worth it.
So I'm logging off for today. Fun ruined because of implants.
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5335
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Posted - 2017.03.05 18:27:34 -
[2] - Quote
No, fun ruined because of risk aversion.
There's no timer if you jump between clones in the same citadel, and there's no timer if you just use a clone with two +3 implants and don't even pretend to care about the fourteen entire days of training you lose in a full year compared with +5s. |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2939
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Posted - 2017.03.05 18:31:23 -
[3] - Quote
More like fun ruined because someone cannot inform themselves. This was mentioned in one of the Upwell Structure introduction dev blogs as well but I cannot find that one at the moment.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
50
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Posted - 2017.03.05 19:24:07 -
[4] - Quote
No noobs, I didn't know about today's fleet so couldn't plan for it. |
Kenrailae
mind games. Suddenly Spaceships.
746
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Posted - 2017.03.05 19:45:39 -
[5] - Quote
Even so, you still coulda went to a public citadel with a clone bay, installed a new clone, and then jumped to it :/
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Wanda Fayne
545
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:16:52 -
[6] - Quote
So because you don't make any suggested change or improvement, this is basically a whine thread.
your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic
-Lan Wang-
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Locator Agents cease to function on Offline Players:
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3886
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:17:34 -
[7] - Quote
Regardless of all the hate being thrown by oh look, the usual suspects, you are right. CCP has even acknowledged you are right before that attribute implants and even attributes are bad game play.
They however were too afraid of impacting the LP market to remove attribute implants from the game at the time without having additional new ways to spend LP ready to go to. |
Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
50
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:22:49 -
[8] - Quote
Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6053
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:26:24 -
[9] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Regardless of all the hate being thrown by oh look, the usual suspects, you are right. CCP has even acknowledged you are right before that attribute implants and even attributes are bad game play.
They however were too afraid of impacting the LP market to remove attribute implants from the game at the time without having additional new ways to spend LP ready to go to.
And it looks like CCP took some steps to mitigate that,
Quote:If you jump clone to a clone you have at the Upwell structure you are currently located in, then you receive no activation delay to jump clone again.-- link
Looks like there was a way for him to avoid this problem, but he is so risk averse he has not availed himself of this option.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6053
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:27:25 -
[10] - Quote
Captain Campion wrote:Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway).
Go use a citadel...no JC timers.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
160
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:29:45 -
[11] - Quote
Captain Campion wrote:Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). I think 6 hours is good.
19 hours is a very weird number. If the base is 24 make the skill reduce it by 3-4 per level.
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Kenrailae
mind games. Suddenly Spaceships.
748
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Captain Campion wrote:Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway).
The problem inherent with timers is WHY.
In this case, the timer is NOT there to stop you from switching JC's in same system/station. Citadels negated that. Put up a couple astrahus, fit clone bays, jump around clones all day with a quick shuttle ride over to the other citadel. The Clone timer exists these days rather to attempt to stop instant travel from one area of Eve to another.
Now, yes, you can get almost anywhere in Eve these days in a travel ceptor in a reasonable amount of time, but it still takes the time and 'effort' to do it, where if I could just JC between a clone in metropolis, syndicate, The Forge and Deklien all day, that would be bad. Yeah, a travel ceptor can still get you pretty much anywhere in an hour or less, but once you get there, if you haven't prestaged stuff/not getting stuff from someone else, you only have the ceptor to work with.
It's a challenging compromise between trying to stop people from being able to go anywhere in Eve at the blink of an eye, and trying to relax some of the old, outdated systems like JC timers, attribute/effect clones, etc.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
160
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:31:53 -
[13] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Captain Campion wrote:Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). Go use a citadel...no JC timers. Citadel aren't available to everyone in some places. If the functionality is there for cits there's no reason for the same functionality to not already be present for stations. |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2940
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:36:41 -
[14] - Quote
This feature won't be available in stations because it is a unique feature that actually sets citadels apart from stations and makes them a tiny bit useful. Furthermore, public citadels are available all over high sec and in many low sec areas. All public fleets always start from a high sec or low sec station so this argument is invalid.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3886
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Posted - 2017.03.05 20:52:04 -
[15] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Looks like there was a way for him to avoid this problem, but he has not availed himself of this option.
FIFY so you aren't being abusive...... However here is a legit question. If you jump clone normally, can you still swap at a citadel inside that timer. Or once you jump clone are you actually locked out of doing so.
And CCp's citadel 'mitigation' still doesn't solve the major issue behind Attributes & attribute implants, it just makes it slightly less problematic for certain groups of people (mainly the large null groups) |
Kenrailae
mind games. Suddenly Spaceships.
748
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:00:42 -
[16] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Looks like there was a way for him to avoid this problem, but he has not availed himself of this option.
FIFY so you aren't being abusive...... However here is a legit question. If you jump clone normally, can you still swap at a citadel inside that timer. Or once you jump clone are you actually locked out of doing so. And CCp's citadel 'mitigation' still doesn't solve the major issue behind Attributes & attribute implants, it just makes it slightly less problematic for certain groups of people (mainly the large null groups)
You can jump clone to another clone inside the same citadel at any time, regardless of timer status, as long as you have access rights to the clone bay AND the clone bay is online(fueled, turned on, etc).
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6053
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:17:24 -
[17] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Captain Campion wrote:Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). Go use a citadel...no JC timers. Citadel aren't available to everyone in some places. If the functionality is there for cits there's no reason for the same functionality to not already be present for stations.
There are public citadels that one can check out in terms of clone bays.
Instantaneous travel has been seen as generally bad, if you don't have at least some minimal level of risk. There are groups in this game that could put caches of capitals all over the game, and then with instant JC people could move across the map and thus avoid jump fatigue.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6053
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:21:44 -
[18] - Quote
BTW, in looking at Danika's suggestion of having +3s in your PvP clone the loss in terms of SP over the course of an entire year is 2 million SP. This guy has been playing since 2006...or at least that is how old his character is. How many SP does this guy have? Seriously, you are still min-maxing past 160 million SP? Really? And you don't have the financial where-with-all at this point to afford possibly losing some +3s?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
51
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:BTW, in looking at Danika's suggestion of having +3s in your PvP clone the loss in terms of SP over the course of an entire year is 2 million SP. This guy has been playing since 2006...or at least that is how old his character is. How many SP does this guy have? Seriously, you are still min-maxing past 160 million SP? Really? And you don't have the financial where-with-all at this point to afford possibly losing some +3s? Haven't been subbed the whole time, but yes your general point is true. I generally go on 1-2 public fleets a a week, and that's how eve fits around RL for me, so it makes sense to use implants during idle time. But it's not just about me. And just because you have ISK doesn't mean you should waste it. (same as RL money) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6054
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:50:03 -
[20] - Quote
Captain Campion wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:BTW, in looking at Danika's suggestion of having +3s in your PvP clone the loss in terms of SP over the course of an entire year is 2 million SP. This guy has been playing since 2006...or at least that is how old his character is. How many SP does this guy have? Seriously, you are still min-maxing past 160 million SP? Really? And you don't have the financial where-with-all at this point to afford possibly losing some +3s? Haven't been subbed the whole time, but yes your general point is true. I generally go on 1-2 public fleets a a week, and that's how eve fits around RL for me, so it makes sense to use implants during idle time. But it's not just about me. And just because you have ISK doesn't mean you should waste it. (same as RL money)
It isn't wasting it. It is looking at the trade offs. Putting in cheap implants, and cheap is of course relative to your over all in game wealth, can be a viable alternative to always being in your high end implants.
Personally, I became far less fixated on SP around 100 million SP. I don't have a clone that is a dedicated learning clone anymore, in part for this reason and also because of diminishing marginal returns with regards to SP.
But the solution is use a public citadel with a clone bay, I'm on my way to Perimeter right now in an alt to check out some of the citadels there. If I find one with a clone bay open to the public I'll post here. Yes, Perimeter might not be the optimal location, but it does address your issue, and it shows that there are public citadels. See if there is one closer to where the public roams tend to start...or just log in a bit early and use a travel ceptor to get to the staging point of the public roam.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3890
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:54:31 -
[21] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Personally, I became far less fixated on SP around 100 million SP. I don't have a clone that is a dedicated learning clone anymore, in part for this reason and also because of diminishing marginal returns with regards to SP.
This is the key point. The people who keep saying attribute implants/attributes themselves should remain tend to be very old vets well past this mark on their mains. The younger someone is the stronger they are impacted by the negatives involved, and that isn't a good thing when Vets can leverage things like remaps better since they can just leave the alt training on one track for 6 months while it's unusable, while the real newer player has to train balanced and can't afford to risk implants either.
Yes EVE isn't an SP game, but there is no great advantage to having the 'sit in station and do nothing' behaviour rewarded over people who are out there doing things, and at the end of the day that is what the entire attribute system actually does.
Obviously no changes to jump clone needed on this front though, a different solution of removing attributes is the right one, then jump clones become about which implants you want for in space today, and people use cheap sets (like those low grade empire sets that boost sensor strength, hmm......) when being casual, empty clones when being super risky, or expensive sets when appropriate. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6054
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:55:47 -
[22] - Quote
Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market
That citadel will let you install a clone for free even.
And I just jumped into the clone and right back out.
Problem solved...maybe not perfectly, but there is a work around.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6054
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Posted - 2017.03.05 21:58:37 -
[23] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Personally, I became far less fixated on SP around 100 million SP. I don't have a clone that is a dedicated learning clone anymore, in part for this reason and also because of diminishing marginal returns with regards to SP.
This is the key point. The people who keep saying attribute implants/attributes themselves should remain tend to be very old vets well past this mark on their mains. The younger someone is the stronger they are impacted by the negatives involved, and that isn't a good thing when Vets can leverage things like remaps better since they can just leave the alt training on one track for 6 months while it's unusable, while the real newer player has to train balanced and can't afford to risk implants either. Yes EVE isn't an SP game, but there is no great advantage to having the 'sit in station and do nothing' behaviour rewarded over people who are out there doing things, and at the end of the day that is what the entire attribute system actually does. Obviously no changes to jump clone needed on this front though, a different solution of removing attributes is the right one, then jump clones become about which implants you want for in space today, and people use cheap sets (like those low grade empire sets that boost sensor strength, hmm......) when being casual, empty clones when being super risky, or expensive sets when appropriate.
Again, go to Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market set up a PvP clone with no implants. Keep your training clone there. Jump back and forth all day with no timers at all.
Just not seeing the big issue here. And another upshot, you are 1 jump from Jita, the largest market in game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3891
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Posted - 2017.03.05 22:09:55 -
[24] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Again, go to Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market set up a PvP clone with no implants. Keep your training clone there. Jump back and forth all day with no timers at all.
Just not seeing the big issue here. And another upshot, you are 1 jump from Jita, the largest market in game.
So that newbie has to spend 4 hours a day not in their training clone. So that newbie has to spend their first 6 months on a sub optimal attribute map because they have to train a range of skills and can't do what vets can do on their alts.
And well, that newbie just lost their clone when the perimeter market wars blew the citadel up as well.
And you don't see any problems here at all?
Again,. this is not about jump clone timers, they are fine as they are, this is about the attribute system itself being bad for the game. Implants that affect your ship in space are good, timers based around that & travel are good, ability to swap between two sets of implants that affect your ship in space in a single location are good. Training clones however are bad. |
Kenrailae
mind games. Suddenly Spaceships.
752
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Posted - 2017.03.05 22:11:20 -
[25] - Quote
In Part Nevyn.
Older players also know what they are building a character for, so don't have to deal with the constant sidetracking, changing directions, bit of this, bit of that, that new players do. We also don't train to just 1's and 2's, but build alts to be optimized for their role. Another, IMO larger, part of the issue is the lack of focus new players have, because they're told to train this, read they should train that, see those and want to fly them, etc etc. I remember making those mistakes, and know a guy right now, sub 15m sp, who can fly cal, gal, and amarr bs, next door to a tengu, talos, mine, build, and so on. Course, those are all just pre-req's and whatever L1 or L2 skill is needed to sit those ships. Where in all that do Core skills go?
Now, yes, all of this goes with lending credence to the removing attributes argument, but even when you do that, the problem is going to remain. Removing attributes is a step in the right direction, but it needs to go a bit further than that and be accompanied by further refinement of the NPE focusing on a 'yes you CAN train anything, but you also need to train what you do train well' shift. I don't think training implants are inherently bad, but they are definitely made worse by the attributes. Changing them from being +x to this attribute to +Y Sp/hr with the removal of attributes may be a viable middle ground.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3817
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Posted - 2017.03.05 22:22:51 -
[26] - Quote
I would, and do, follow danika's advice. I've never used +5's. Never had to worry about what head im in.
And as ken says, attribute implants aren't bad. They are a choice like more powerful skill hardwiring implants or using higher meta mods. The way attributes work however might want overhauling.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3891
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Posted - 2017.03.05 22:22:57 -
[27] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote: Now, yes, all of this goes with lending credence to the removing attributes argument, but even when you do that, the problem is going to remain. Removing attributes is a step in the right direction, but it needs to go a bit further than that and be accompanied by further refinement of the NPE focusing on a 'yes you CAN train anything, but you also need to train what you do train well' shift. I don't think training implants are inherently bad, but they are definitely made worse by the attributes. Changing them from being +x to this attribute to +Y Sp/hr with the removal of attributes may be a viable middle ground.
I agree with the first part of that. Encouraging them to do an initial specialisation is important. But even then it would need them to train a bunch of different attribute maps, so even without all that jumping around attributes still hammer them.
I'll agree to disagree on +y sp/hr implants being a good thing, because I still see it as a pay wall, and one that stops them using implants that actually benefit their ship as well. But you are right that it is a middle ground if CCP are too worried about the impact on the LP market to actually remove them, and allows for removing the worst part of the problem (the attributes themselves) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6054
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Posted - 2017.03.05 22:26:25 -
[28] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Again, go to Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market set up a PvP clone with no implants. Keep your training clone there. Jump back and forth all day with no timers at all.
Just not seeing the big issue here. And another upshot, you are 1 jump from Jita, the largest market in game.
So that newbie has to spend 4 hours a day not in their training clone. So that newbie has to spend their first 6 months on a sub optimal attribute map because they have to train a range of skills and can't do what vets can do on their alts. And well, that newbie just lost their clone when the perimeter market wars blew the citadel up as well. And you don't see any problems here at all? Again,. this is not about jump clone timers, they are fine as they are, this is about the attribute system itself being bad for the game. Implants that affect your ship in space are good, timers based around that & travel are good, ability to swap between two sets of implants that affect your ship in space in a single location are good. Training clones however are bad.
Or just remove all attribute implants.
Nobody should get a free ride here. Remove the implants and let them train at the rate without the implants. Problem also solved....of course, this will mean that the new players won't get the benefit of the enhanced training.
This is the complaint? You get reduced training for 4 hours a day assuming you are going something high risk enough not to get into that training clone? BTW, somebody who has +5s is not really much of a new player, IMO. That is alot of ISK and already alot of training. So you get 4 hours/day of lowered training with +3s that is just over 394,000 SP a year. I think they can live with it. If somebody is going to quit because of that, feck 'em.
And before you get indignant, they made a choice. They decided to get out of their learning clone and go PvP. Now crying about the lost SP from that decision strikes me as somebody who wants their cake and to eat it too. Everything comes with trade offs, in RL and in game. Grow up and deal with it like a big boy or girl.
Edit: If you somehow managed to lose your learning clone during that 4 hours of PvP you are terrible.
Log into your learning clone who is safe in a Perimeter station. Scoot over to the citadel. Check to see if it is in reinforced. If not, dock up, JC to the PVP clone, go have fun. If it is reinforced, check the timer to see if you are in danger of losing your learning clone. If not, JC and have fun, if it is, don't. You could even look to see if there is another station in Perimeter or even in another system that has a public clone bay.
I mean holy mother of God, how much hand holding must be done here. Are we going to hold their pecker for them when the new player has to take ****?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Kenrailae
mind games. Suddenly Spaceships.
754
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Posted - 2017.03.05 22:42:39 -
[29] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I mean holy mother of God, how much hand holding must be done here. Are we going to hold their pecker for them when the new player has to take ****?
You don't???
rrrrr..... well, this is awkward.....
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2941
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Posted - 2017.03.05 22:48:27 -
[30] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Again,. this is not about jump clone timers, they are fine as they are, this is about the attribute system itself being bad for the game. Implants that affect your ship in space are good, timers based around that & travel are good, ability to swap between two sets of implants that affect your ship in space in a single location are good. Training clones however are bad. I don't quite follow. The system has not done anything bad to me. It enabled me pretty early on with my +4s and later +3s to train all the skills I need with a reasonably fast training speed. Once I started actually PVPing, I never looked back to anything beyond +3s, too. Even without the incredible (annoying for market people) feature of clone jumps without timer, I never felt a disadvantage of always training in the old days. The attribute system is not to blame here, but the incompetence of players to manage their EVE lifes as well as their obnoxious impatience that leads to false accusations on the attribute system being responsible for their worse EVE experience.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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