Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Veyreuth
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 22:40:12 -
[1] - Quote
Not to discredit my own post, but I'm more musing with the idea than stating with conviction. I'm curious about different points of view.
Backstory:
I'm a fairly casual player. I started in 2009 and spent my first several years running high sec missions and conducting industry. It wasn't until late 2015 that I dabbled in SOV null sec seeking a null sec industry experience. One thing that shocked me during my time in null was how easy it was to move goods in and out of high sec. The ease of transport means that there's not a big need for local (non-Jita) trade hubs. Sellers want to get their goods to the place where they're most likely to find a buyer and buyers want to go to the place where there's the most competition for buyers (lower prices). The secondary hubs are used more for occasional convenience than primary places to exchange goods (unless you're a trader).
In my early days of industry, I operated out of Heimatar. I put extra effort into "buying local" for my jobs. I had thought that if I bought from the region where I operated, that would make those around me wealthier to buy the things I was building. In retrospect, it was a naive notion. As an industrialist, buying my goods exclusively out of Rens added 20% to 30% to my costs, erasing the margins on many projects (figuring in transportation costs). There was no real rational reason to buy exclusively from a non-Jita hub.
During my time in SOV null, I found it extremely difficult to locally source industry jobs. Almost every project involved me purchasing materials from Jita and paying to jump freighter them out. Members of my own alliance would ship moon goo to Jita rather than find a local buyer at the same time I was paying to move it out, since it was easier to ship it and flip it than to find a local buyer.
So:
I believe that Jump Freighters make moving goods "too easy". Major moves still may have challenges, but for regular getting goods too and from market, there is very little risk of piracy if an operation is properly planned. Quick, easy, and relatively safe access from most regions to Jita causes an increased emphasis on the one central hub and makes multiple smaller regional markets less viable.
I don't deny that the ease of transport is a wonderful quality of life issue, however I think it does stifle null sec industrial and market opportunities. SOV corporations don't need industrialists or need to worry about the local economy outside of making sure convenience and essential items are stocked on local market/contracts. It makes managing an organization far from empire far less dynamic.
Sometimes, I think the game would be much more interesting if moving goods in and out of null sec were a major corp operation... not just lighting a few cynos, instead it would be a many player operation with scouts, escorts an the whole ball of yarn. If it were very difficult to move goods in and out, then a major part of success in SOV null becomes ensuring you can produce more of what you need locally. I also think that making it harder to move goods will make for more dynamic regional markets in empire space.
(Oh, and I did make billions with industry in Null, so this isn't so much about crying... it's just thinking the mechanics could be more interesting.)
Thoughts? |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 22:44:54 -
[2] - Quote
Budweiser has made a few successful deliveries with those robotic trucks.
In today's world.
Even in war, people don't disrupt, intentionally, commerce. |
hmu-smh
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 22:46:21 -
[3] - Quote
I agree.
The problem is CCP only listen to the whiners.. and proceed to kill the game with safer changes and mechanics, over and over again. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 22:49:55 -
[4] - Quote
hmu-smh wrote:I agree.
The problem is CCP only listen to the whiners.. and proceed to kill the game with safer changes and mechanics, over and over again.
Civilians usually take great efforts to protect themselves, and well they should. We're not supposed to be hitting them, anyway. A transport ship is, by definition, a non-combatant.
Do you feel powerful killing it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMD3njsLHHQ
It's all hypocritical, isn't it? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6712
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 22:54:36 -
[5] - Quote
CCP has been pushing for local production for a long time, and it was just starting to be practical with the Rorqual overhaul. We'll see if this continues after the second round and third round and ... N round of nerfs; it has already had a chilling affect on mining and production.
For the most part, whatever that can be manufactured locally, typically is.
This excludes T2 and T3, which require so many different inputs from around the universe, that they are impractical to manufacture anywhere far from a major well-stocked trade hub, like Jita.
Travel is not where the "fun" is for most. Neither is escorting snails.
More & more dangerous travel would also greatly increase the cost of items, as both the effort and risk would skyrocket. |
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 23:00:23 -
[6] - Quote
Amojin wrote:hmu-smh wrote:I agree.
The problem is CCP only listen to the whiners.. and proceed to kill the game with safer changes and mechanics, over and over again. Civilians usually take great efforts to protect themselves, and well they should. We're not supposed to be hitting them, anyway. A transport ship is, by definition, a non-combatant. Do you feel powerful killing it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMD3njsLHHQ It's all hypocritical, isn't it?
Well killing transports is something both sides did during wars why would we magically change tactics in future wars?
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
|
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 23:04:07 -
[7] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Well killing that what both sides did during wars why would we magically change tactics in future wars?
Because we have free will. Because WE CAN be better.
For no other reason than that, though.
2:19 'We DO NOT want to be what you are!'
Oh, and it's also against the Geneva Convention... Other than, it's just great. I guess 10,000 years into the future, humanity has really lost it. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Test Alliance Please Ignore
1236
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 23:37:42 -
[8] - Quote
This is the age of rorqs. Literally the only **** that has to be shipped from Jita are moongoo and Ice products.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
|
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 23:43:59 -
[9] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote:Well killing that what both sides did during wars why would we magically change tactics in future wars? Because we have free will. Because WE CAN be better. For no other reason than that, though. 2:19 'We DO NOT want to be what you are!' Oh, and it's also against the Geneva Convention... Other than that, it's just great. I guess 10,000 years into the future, humanity has really lost it.
We are playing a grimdark roleplay game where many of the capsulers think of them selves as gods.....to put things in perspective.
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
|
Kentonio
THE DISC
2
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 23:44:44 -
[10] - Quote
Veyreuth wrote:Sometimes, I think the game would be much more interesting if moving goods in and out of null sec were a major corp operation... not just lighting a few cynos, instead it would be a many player operation with scouts, escorts an the whole ball of yarn. If it were very difficult to move goods in and out, then a major part of success in SOV null becomes ensuring you can produce more of what you need locally. I also think that making it harder to move goods will make for more dynamic regional markets in empire space. In theory, yes it'd be great to find a way to seperate people's dependence on Jita. As someone who used to occasionally run freighter runs from null though, no if you made it harder I'd probably rather kill myself than go through that tedious horror show again. It's already insanely boring, a nightmare to try and get people to act as escorts, and basically nothing more than a mindless slog. I think alliance freighter pilots really are the unsung heroes of EVE. God knows how they stand doing it for years. |
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47188
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:00:30 -
[11] - Quote
Veyreuth wrote:Major moves still may have challenges, but for regular getting goods too and from market, there is very little risk of piracy if an operation is properly planned. Don't underestimate the ability of us all to take short cuts when we think we can and to fail at planning properly.
zkillboard has plenty of lowsec and nullsec jump freighter losses:
https://zkillboard.com/group/902/lowsec/losses/ https://zkillboard.com/group/902/nullsec/losses/ |
Cade Windstalker
1006
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:06:38 -
[12] - Quote
Veyreuth wrote:I believe that Jump Freighters make moving goods "too easy". Major moves still may have challenges, but for regular getting goods too and from market, there is very little risk of piracy if an operation is properly planned. Quick, easy, and relatively safe access from most regions to Jita causes an increased emphasis on the one central hub and makes multiple smaller regional markets less viable.
I don't deny that the ease of transport is a wonderful quality of life issue, however I think it does stifle null sec industrial and market opportunities. SOV corporations don't need industrialists or need to worry about the local economy outside of making sure convenience and essential items are stocked on local market/contracts. It makes managing an organization far from empire far less dynamic.
Sometimes, I think the game would be much more interesting if moving goods in and out of null sec were a major corp operation... not just lighting a few cynos, instead it would be a many player operation with scouts, escorts an the whole ball of yarn. If it were very difficult to move goods in and out, then a major part of success in SOV null becomes ensuring you can produce more of what you need locally. I also think that making it harder to move goods will make for more dynamic regional markets in empire space.
(Oh, and I did make billions with industry in Null, so this isn't so much about crying... it's just thinking the mechanics could be more interesting.)
Thoughts?
I think you're seriously discounting the difficulties that go into "proper planning" of a Jump Freighter route. There's a reason that CCP specifically called out the sanity of Logistics Officers when they gave Jump Freighters a massive reduction on Jump Fatigue impact.
If you just take a Jump Freighter, plug a route into Dotlan, and go you're probably going to get spectacularly kaploded.
Moving a JF already involves scouts, but the ideal for the trip is to not run into anyone, because if you do the only thing escorts are likely to be able to do is either die with you or avenge your corpse. What people do instead is stake out a system for hours or days before jumping to make sure that no one's around and that if they are they can't or won't cause trouble.
Oh that's without even getting into the fuel costs, space restrictions on cargo, and straight up cost of a Jump Frieghter. That's part of why Null Sec Alliances have been so willing to welcome industrial corps in the last few years, because moving stuff out to Null is difficult and expensive, and having local industry makes it much easier and cheaper to live out there.
On top of that escorting someone is *boring*. That's why every game ever that does escort missions either does exposition until just before the shooting starts or has the player load into the x many hours/days of escort duty right at the point everything goes horribly wrong. In Eve there's no such guarantee, so instead of paying people to be bored people just try to avoid the excitement entirely, it's cheaper and easier. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:13:27 -
[13] - Quote
The supply chain is a bit too massive, Cade, to try to apply the art of war to it.
Setting aside, for the moment, the murder of non-combatants, as opposed to treaties...
It makes no sense as a tactic. The supplies will still be shipped.
Let's pretend we're being honest. Blasting an expensive ship makes a nice killmail, right?
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1026
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:21:45 -
[14] - Quote
Making jump fatigue penalize you more would be very, very healthy for the game, solving this among many other issues. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:27:13 -
[15] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Making jump fatigue penalize you more would be very, very healthy for the game, solving this among many other issues.
No, it would not. I've about had it with this ****. Aww, we can't attack that ship! It's such a nice target! It's so easy. It has no weapons! We can sag our pants down like prison thugs and be SOOO cool!
It's just a dude engaging in life! Damn, a perfect target, that can't fight! We want it!
CCP! Damn, you! So far, it can get away. Give it to us! I know what sheep look like, but feck! Sometimes there's this weird looking sheep. We've, after the fact, identified it as an Anatolian Sheep Dog. It's fricking fighting. Damn it!
So far we've been able to kill it, but what if it has puppies?! |
Veyreuth
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:28:08 -
[16] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:This is the age of rorqs. Literally the only **** that has to be shipped from Jita are moongoo and Ice products.
True. However, I would argue that a huge percentage of items that eve pilots use every day are dependent on moon goo... that means that industry depends on moon goo, which makes moon goo very relevant to this discussion.
The heart of the discussion is "Would the game be better if markets were more decentralized?" If the answer is yes, then it's a question of how much easier transportation increases market centralization.
The solution might be unrelated to transportation... perhaps system/region taxes in higher volume trade areas would do the trick. If a corporation could save billions from buying direct from the supplier, then the market would be less central. Maybe there could be research/invention processes that could give industrialists an alternative to moon goo.
Also, for those that enjoy SOV content, think about how decentralized market system could add to conflict... if rival residents of region A and B need resources from region C, they would be much more inclined to engage in conflict in region C to ensure friendly trading partners.
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1026
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:48:10 -
[17] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:Making jump fatigue penalize you more would be very, very healthy for the game, solving this among many other issues. No, it would not. I've about had it with this ****. Aww, we can't attack that ship! It's such a nice target! It's so easy. It has no weapons! We can sag our pants down like prison thugs and be SOOO cool! It's just a dude engaging in life! Damn, a perfect target, that can't fight! We want it! CCP! Damn, you! So far, it can get away. Give it to us! I know what sheep look like, but feck! Sometimes there's this weird looking sheep. We've, after the fact, identified it as an Anatolian Sheep Dog. It's fricking fighting. Damn it! So far we've been able to kill it, but what if it has puppies?!
Did you even read what I wrote? Try again kitten. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:51:24 -
[18] - Quote
Sure, I read about those penalties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvYiSDJujA
Penalizing non-combatants? Well, Anatolians ain't so bright. But they do their job. Me? I'm real bright. But I lack experience. I'm remedying that. Lord help you when I do. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1026
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:57:05 -
[19] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Sure, I read about those penalties. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvYiSDJujA Penalizing non-combatants? Well, Anatolians ain't so bright. But they do their job. Me? I'm real bright. But I lack experience. I'm remedying that. Lord help you when I do.
EVE is supposed to be big. Living in null is supposed to be hard. It's glorified HS anymore. Caps are supposed to require full supcap support fleets. Now we can jump in solo in caps to get our rocks off. We need a major buff to jump fatigue. Excessive caps and the ridiculous safety in null are some of the worst things in EVE right now. Being able to jump from citadel to citadel all the way out of null is ridiculous. Buff jump fatigue, make null actually difficult to live in for a change. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47189
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:57:12 -
[20] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:Making jump fatigue penalize you more would be very, very healthy for the game, solving this among many other issues. No, it would not. I've about had it with this ****. Aww, we can't attack that ship! It's such a nice target! It's so easy. It has no weapons! We can sag our pants down like prison thugs and be SOOO cool! It's just a dude engaging in life! Damn, a perfect target, that can't fight! We want it! CCP! Damn, you! So far, it can get away. Give it to us! I know what sheep look like, but feck! Sometimes there's this weird looking sheep. We've, after the fact, identified it as an Anatolian Sheep Dog. It's fricking fighting. Damn it! So far we've been able to kill it, but what if it has puppies?! Actually, CCP's original plan was for much tougher jump fatigue on Jump Freighters (and other industrials) and they relented following player feedback, particularly because of where nullsec industry was and the feeling amongst the player base that the fatigue on jump freighters would affect small Alliances more than large ones:
Ships in the following groups gain a 90% reduction to effective distance traveled: industrial, blockade runner, deep space transport, freighter, industrial command ship, capital industrial ship, jump freighter. This eases the impact of these changes on alliance logistics for the time being. We would like to remove these bonuses in future, but we donGÇÖt feel nullsec industry is in a sufficiently strong place that it would be prudent to do so right now.
Nothing to do with them being easy targets that they received the jump fatigue bonus.
source: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/phoebe-travel-change-update/
So Sonya's post is just an expression of what CCP planned in the first place and a perfectly good one now that industry issues have been improved through the Citadels/Engineering Complexes and Rorqual changes. |
|
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 00:59:49 -
[21] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Amojin wrote:Sure, I read about those penalties. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvYiSDJujA Penalizing non-combatants? Well, Anatolians ain't so bright. But they do their job. Me? I'm real bright. But I lack experience. I'm remedying that. Lord help you when I do. EVE is supposed to be big. Living in null is supposed to be hard. It's glorified HS anymore. Caps are supposed to require full supcap support fleets. Now we can jump in solo in caps to get our rocks off. We need a major buff to jump fatigue. Excessive caps and the ridiculous safety in null are some of the worst things in EVE right now. Being able to jump from citadel to citadel all the way out of null is ridiculous. Buff jump fatigue, make null actually difficult to live in for a change.
True or false, the requests so far, will have the result of making sitting ducks, well, sit a lot longer? |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1026
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:03:07 -
[22] - Quote
Amojin wrote:True or false, the requests so far, will have the result of making sitting ducks, well, sit a lot longer?
True or false, you can fly ships other than jump freighters and caps, and those jump freighters and caps can *gasp* take gates? |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:05:10 -
[23] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:True or false, you can fly ships other than jump freighters and caps, and those jump freighters and caps can *gasp* take gates?
Anatloians eat meat, right? They sure look like sheep. They clean the sheep, they wander around with them. They have even been observed to play with them.
But, at the end of the day, that ain't no sheep. Play how you want. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47189
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:06:45 -
[24] - Quote
Amojin wrote:True or false, the requests so far, will have the result of making sitting ducks, well, sit a lot longer? False.
It'll have the result of Alliances working more to ensure safe routes for their logistics. No one has to be a sitting duck, especially with tethering. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:13:58 -
[25] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Amojin wrote:True or false, the requests so far, will have the result of making sitting ducks, well, sit a lot longer? False. It'll have the result of Alliances working more to ensure safe routes for their logistics. No one has to be a sitting duck, especially with tethering.
Your excuse for hitting a non-combatant? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47191
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:25:53 -
[26] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Your excuse for hitting a non-combatant? In low and null there's no such thing.
My industry alt, who is sitting in her Anshar right now in null waiting out a jump timer, jumps in low/null almost everyday. It's not all about shooting defenseless ships (I'll do that too in low/null - everything is a target).
Not every industry/hauling pilot wants safety. Make it hard, then those that are good at it gain advantage over those that aren't. Making things easy just rewards the lazy and incompetent. |
Amojin
Entropic Synergies Research
72
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:29:53 -
[27] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Amojin wrote:Your excuse for hitting a non-combatant? In low and null there's no such thing. My industry alt, who is sitting in her Anshar right now in null waiting out a jump timer, jumps in low/null almost everyday. It's not all about shooting defenseless ships (I'll do that too in low/null - everything is a target). Not every industry/hauling pilot wants safety. Make it hard, then those that are good at it gain advantage over those that aren't. Making things easy just rewards the lazy and incompetent.
Oh. Because some software company created a region of space delineated by a numeric scale... I'm supposed to just accept that as a sort of DEFCON scale? I should totally subsume my own view, in favor of theirs?
Hmm... As fascinating as that is, uh, no. I'm not gonna do that. Just like I'm not handing you a full api-key, I'm also not going to assume that I should kill you, because joe dumb-ass developer set a security rating.
That's not how life works, when you can think for yourself. |
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:30:11 -
[28] - Quote
Mam I would love to see blockade runners get more use doing things like....running blockades instead of being told we will just jump around it
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47191
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:32:25 -
[29] - Quote
Amojin wrote:Oh. Because some software company created a region of space delineated by a numeric scale... I'm supposed to just accept that as a sort of DEFCON scale? I should totally subsume my own view, in favor of theirs? What?
No one is saying subsume your own view. Have yours. No problem. Accept that others are also entitled to theirs too.
If you ask a question and get an answer, no need to rant on. It's fine to not agree. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Test Alliance Please Ignore
1237
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 01:33:20 -
[30] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Mam I would love to see blockade runners get more use doing things like....running blockades instead of being told we will just jump around it
Make a friend with a blops battleship.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |