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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5986
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Posted - 2017.03.10 16:39:44 -
[1] - Quote
Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".
Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it). I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.
Rather than continuing to gimp the "Alpha experience" CCP should be looking for ways to incentivize players to subscribe and become Omegas. So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
485
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 16:43:20 -
[2] - Quote
EvE is Dying SoonGäó |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15323
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 16:45:07 -
[3] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension.
The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language).
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Thomas Lot
Astrocomical Warped Intentions
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 17:01:13 -
[4] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operation of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec.
I would support these two ideas. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5986
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 17:05:40 -
[5] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
486
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 17:18:27 -
[6] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go.
idk about that. Many solutions are available to someone that really want stand up to power blocks.
For example starting in some NPC null space, or rent some space to let your corp grow up. Low Sec is not the place people that get out from HS should go. Specially miners and farmers. Null sec is way more vast and safer from that point of view.
just becouse people have titans and supers doesn't mean you have no chance. just play around them and wait for you chance. (i.e. test and co2 moved way down on the map just becouse atm they are outnumbered with supers and titans. Can't wait to see what will happen when they will have enough capital numbers to stand up against goons, NC and PL. Gotta be Gud)
they have the advantage but it's an advantage that is closing imo. |
Torin Corax
Game of Roams
254
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 17:28:16 -
[7] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: * Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time.
I honestly cannot believe you are serious about this one....say hello to alt-fleet mining skiffs in every system in high sec. Not to mention the ridiculous crash in PI prices. This is just way too exploitable in the worst possible ways.
Quote:* Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space.
No, defeats the entire object of a free trial. CCP should be actively encouraging new players into Low/ null sec. Many corps are already doing so. Blocking this and basically tying Alphas to HS only would be utterly against the whole idea of a trial...particularly an EVE trial.
Quote:* Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec.
Moving Lvl 4 agents wont work imo (although I'm not against it)...moving all burner missions might be an idea though. Incursions (and lvl 4 missions) just need a lower payout in HS...no need to deprive HS players of "interesting" content, it just shouldn't be ridiculously profitable. +1 for removing ice belts from HS, but I am heavily biased in this respect (Endurance fanboi reporting for duty o7 )
Quote:* Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. Personally I'd say no to this. T2 T3 are a risk to fly, and they should remain so. It's part of the fun imo. T1 is an easily ignored loss mail when it pops. T2 and T3 should, where possible, hurt.
Quote:* Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse). Not sure if this is needed tbh. Might do interesting things to the implant market, or might have no real effect. With jump clones as they are maintaining different implant sets is easy enough...it really depends if CCP want quick-switching of implant sets to be a thing.
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5986
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 17:35:21 -
[8] - Quote
Torin Corax wrote:No, defeats the entire object of a free trial. CCP should be actively encouraging new players into Low/ null sec. Many corps are already doing so. Blocking this and basically tying Alphas to HS only would be utterly against the whole idea of a trial...particularly an EVE trial. Except it's not a free trial anymore - it's an extended state of gameplay. If PvP and exploration is supposed to be the "cool stuff" in EVE then you should have to subscribe for it. I don't see how a mindless legion of Alpha alts is beneficial to the game.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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mkint
1554
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:00:09 -
[9] - Quote
I'm opposed to all of this. People don't quit EVE because it's too safe or whatever. They quit because they've run out of adventures/new experiences that are worthwhile, or achievable goals worth striving for. It's true for rookies and vets alike. Buffing low/breaking high won't make people move to low. It'll make them get a netflix subscription. It will make the experiences appear less worthwhile and goals less achievable. It would cause rapid deflation and greater power imbalances, making the long running and ever increasing nullsec stagnation even worse, driving more vets into other games.
Alphas and F2P have failed because people get started in EVE and have no sense of place or direction. Very few breadcrumbs leading to meaningful adventure. The early impressions are that the PVE is trite, the PVP is inaccessible. The more subtle playstyles are too subtle to even be recognizable to a neophyte. Progressing past rookie is mostly a matter of getting lucky and finding a corp that doesn't suck, which is a terrible business model, but it does reinforce that the game itself is mostly fine but the tools to explore the game are not.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
486
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:05:18 -
[10] - Quote
?????
f2p simply failed becouse they are trying to change a niche game into a main stream game. Not ever gonna happen.
not with Eve.
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lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
76
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:12:01 -
[11] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".
Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it). I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.
Rather than continuing to gimp the "Alpha experience" CCP should be looking for ways to incentivize players to subscribe and become Omegas. So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated.
because the problem isnt free to play its the gameplay itself but ccp just cant and wont and refuse to see it. I wonder how much actual User Research CCP does? and I dont mean listening to the CSM who dont even talk to the players. and I dont mean getting feedback on forums which is mostly vets trying to secure their game, I mean actually get out and speak to players.
for me ill always say these things are problems
Scamming - big problem Ganking - big problem Risk vs Reward - CCP have nerfed reward its pathetic. I mean you do a lvl 3 mission and you get literally not much for your efforts Immersion - the game can be terribly boring, missions are boring, pvp well isnt exactly exciting, there is no life in eve, you only ever see someone at a station or at a gate really, there is nothing in between. Citadels help a little on that but i want to see more life happening.
I would love to see more actual aliens, instead of humanoids. NPCs are just things, there is no reality to them. The NPE was getting somewhere needs to be implemented into missions.
The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.
I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.
Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
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Torin Corax
Game of Roams
254
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:16:13 -
[12] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Torin Corax wrote:No, defeats the entire object of a free trial. CCP should be actively encouraging new players into Low/ null sec. Many corps are already doing so. Blocking this and basically tying Alphas to HS only would be utterly against the whole idea of a trial...particularly an EVE trial. Except it's not a free trial anymore - it's an extended state of gameplay. If PvP and exploration is supposed to be the "cool stuff" in EVE then you should have to subscribe for it. I don't see how a mindless legion of Alpha alts is beneficial to the game. At the rate active subscribers keep dropping this is all we're going to end up with...
What you're talking about though is basically a full switch to FTP + premium content.
I've had 10 years to train my main+ alts, I have no (or very little ) important training left. I could play in High sec absolutely free with no need to ever pay CCP a penny ever again. Of course I'd have to pay to go low/ null......**** that ! But there are certainly a lot of high-sec players who would never need to pay CCP again, as they could go about business as usual with no cost, seriously...you think this is a good idea?
High sec would be Alpha mains as far as the eye could see. Low/ null would be dead as I doubt I'm the only person who would immediately quit the game (outside of HS ganking shenanigans perhaps) simply on principal. You may think I'm over-reacting, and perhaps I am, but I'd definitely be pissed about this if CCP were daft enough to do it.
Free trial > Paid sub and/ or plex works. It's not as broken as people like to make out imo.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
486
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:22:29 -
[13] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:
The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.
I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.
Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
emh.... - big entities control the game: nothing stop you from doing the same... stop sulking lel PLS really! xD start fighting maybe? or keep crying on the forum...
- for the recruitment: numbers call for numbers (i.e. twitch streamers)
point in playing is conquer and take away what the old players have lol but hey... don't let me tell you what to do just reading you writing those things i can understand what sort of leader/recruiter you are.....
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Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:28:05 -
[14] - Quote
You want more isk from doing garbage tier L3s?
No.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
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Jebidus Skari
Comply Or Die Fidelas Constans
6
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:30:54 -
[15] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:lilol' me wrote:
The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.
I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.
Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
emh.... - big entities control the game: nothing stop you from doing the same... stop sulking lel PLS really! xD start fighting maybe? or keep crying on the forum... - for the recruitment: numbers call for numbers (i.e. twitch streamers) point in playing is conquer and take away what the old players have lol but hey... don't let me tell you what to do just reading you writing those things i can understand what sort of leader/recruiter you are.....
I have to jump in here because even for me a vet get tired of hearing 'go fight for it, nothing to stop you' New players cannot fight against 500 super caps, or 20000 man coalitions so please stop saying that is rather annoying.
I mean lets talks about Goonswarm couldnt win in the last war and you expect new players to do the same? Really? What should that new player do? wait 10 years and perhaps have a chance? I guess they can ask nicely right?
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
28998
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:33:01 -
[16] - Quote
They can still make WIS and landing on planets like they planned before.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Forum Toon
State War Academy Caldari State
120
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:34:17 -
[17] - Quote
imho alphas and f2p should be extremely limited as form of "trying out" the game. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
486
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:35:31 -
[18] - Quote
Jebidus Skari wrote:Soel Reit wrote:lilol' me wrote:
The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.
I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.
Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
emh.... - big entities control the game: nothing stop you from doing the same... stop sulking lel PLS really! xD start fighting maybe? or keep crying on the forum... - for the recruitment: numbers call for numbers (i.e. twitch streamers) point in playing is conquer and take away what the old players have lol but hey... don't let me tell you what to do just reading you writing those things i can understand what sort of leader/recruiter you are..... I have to jump in here because even for me a vet get tired of hearing 'go fight for it, nothing to stop you' New players cannot fight against 500 super caps, or 20000 man coalitions so please stop saying that is rather annoying. I mean lets talks about Goonswarm couldnt win in the last war and you expect new players to do the same? Really? What should that new player do? wait 10 years and perhaps have a chance? I guess they can ask nicely right?
that's for sure. if you lack patience is not my problem! players today want all ASAP.
get in the right mindset and you can enjoy EvE so much! the other option is to give up and leave the game... i mean... i'm not here to stop you! can you send me your SP pls?
p.s. they all started at 0 SP like us. and without supers in the hangar! i mean... someone found t2 BPO in the hangar... but that's another story right CCP? |
Torin Corax
Game of Roams
256
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jebidus Skari wrote:
I have to jump in here because even for me a vet get tired of hearing 'go fight for it, nothing to stop you' New players cannot fight against 500 super caps, or 20000 man coalitions so please stop saying that is rather annoying.
I mean lets talks about Goonswarm couldnt win in the last war and you expect new players to do the same? Really? What should that new player do? wait 10 years and perhaps have a chance? I guess they can ask nicely right?
Or, perhaps those new players could actually join an existing null sec alliance and take part in stuff.
What is this argument I see that new players haven't got a chance to topple existing Null sec alliances? Of course not, if Null sec alliances were that easy to topple there would be no point being a null sec alliance.
Everyone was a new player once. You learn, you grow, you make friends. One day you will be the person at the top driving your enemies before you. It takes time, but nothing good ever comes easy. Of course it all depends on whether the player has the skill, knowledge, dedication, charisma and drive it takes to run a large entity....I don't, but then I have little interest in running a 10k+ alliance. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
515
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:46:16 -
[20] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Jebidus Skari wrote:Soel Reit wrote:lilol' me wrote:
The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.
I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.
Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
emh.... - big entities control the game: nothing stop you from doing the same... stop sulking lel PLS really! xD start fighting maybe? or keep crying on the forum... - for the recruitment: numbers call for numbers (i.e. twitch streamers) point in playing is conquer and take away what the old players have lol but hey... don't let me tell you what to do just reading you writing those things i can understand what sort of leader/recruiter you are..... I have to jump in here because even for me a vet get tired of hearing 'go fight for it, nothing to stop you' New players cannot fight against 500 super caps, or 20000 man coalitions so please stop saying that is rather annoying. I mean lets talks about Goonswarm couldnt win in the last war and you expect new players to do the same? Really? What should that new player do? wait 10 years and perhaps have a chance? I guess they can ask nicely right? that's for sure. if you lack patience is not my problem! players today want all ASAP. get in the right mindset and you can enjoy EvE so much! the other option is to give up and leave the game... i mean... i'm not here to stop you! can you send me your SP pls? p.s. they all started at 0 SP like us. and without supers in the hangar! i mean... someone found t2 BPO in the hangar... but that's another story right CCP?
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!. |
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
488
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:46:22 -
[21] - Quote
Torin Corax wrote:Jebidus Skari wrote:
I have to jump in here because even for me a vet get tired of hearing 'go fight for it, nothing to stop you' New players cannot fight against 500 super caps, or 20000 man coalitions so please stop saying that is rather annoying.
I mean lets talks about Goonswarm couldnt win in the last war and you expect new players to do the same? Really? What should that new player do? wait 10 years and perhaps have a chance? I guess they can ask nicely right?
Or, perhaps those new players could actually join an existing null sec alliance and take part in stuff. What is this argument I see that new players haven't got a chance to topple existing Null sec alliances? Of course not, if Null sec alliances were that easy to topple there would be no point being a null sec alliance. Everyone was a new player once. You learn, you grow, you make friends. One day you will be the person at the top driving your enemies before you. It takes time, but nothing good ever comes easy. Of course it all depends on whether the player has the skill, knowledge, dedication, charisma and drive it takes to run a large entity....I don't, but then I have little interest in running a 10k+ alliance.
i think i've fallen in love with you :thinking: marry me pls |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1977
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:49:17 -
[22] - Quote
But EVE is still a sub based game
Akrasjel Lanate
Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate
Executor of Naquatech Syndicate
Citizen of Solitude
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
488
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:49:46 -
[23] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
i think that i will stop here... or i'll try to convince you guys for all the rest of the thread xD dropping caps... so????
- batphone is a weapon too - allies is another weapon (even only subcaps) - training for caps is another way - adopting a doctrine that gives the middle finger to caps is another way
-etc etc etc
i'll stop here i promise
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
515
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:56:33 -
[24] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
i think that i will stop here... or i'll try to convince you guys for all the rest of the thread xD dropping caps... so???? - batphone is a weapon too - allies is another weapon (even only subcaps) - training for caps is another way - adopting a doctrine that gives the middle finger to caps is another way -etc etc etc i'll stop here i promise
lol
batphone who? a large mega-coalition that can rival the attacker's capital fleet? oh thats right ccp told me i can easily get sov.. the small guy has a chance..
- allies?? from who?? the same mega-coalition thats attacking me? - train for caps.. sure its faster to get into a dreadnaught but these guys are attacking us with supers, fax's, and titans.. they also just deployed a fortizar for rapid deployment and eventually a keepstar for total power grid control.. small guy still has a chance right? alpha's can come and save the day right? needless to say train for caps takes up to 75+ days in a short time yes! this can be done lol - what doctrine defeats caps on that level?? none that i can think of except more capitals..lol
the alpha program served its purpose.. it brought a few new guys in, but once those new guys figure out eve and how its played they leave. i too have noticed how we're slowly going back to normal range of active players.. what went wrong? |
Torin Corax
Game of Roams
256
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 18:57:01 -
[25] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
Nothing new about this. It's been around longer than I have that's for sure.
Ask me about batphoning a drunken Titan pilot to come gank a nano fleet (back in the nano*** vagabond days), when Doomsdays wiped a grid. Fair? Perhaps not....but it was funny as ****. I love drunken titan pilots with a sense of humor
Hot dropping has been around for as long as cynos...granted caps are relatively cheap nowadays, and considered pretty much disposable. this is an economy issue perhaps and has nothing to do with Alphas. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
518
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:16:58 -
[26] - Quote
Torin Corax wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
Nothing new about this. It's been around longer than I have that's for sure. Ask me about batphoning a drunken Titan pilot to come gank a nano fleet (back in the nano*** vagabond days), when Doomsdays wiped a grid. Fair? Perhaps not....but it was funny as ****. I love drunken titan pilots with a sense of humor Hot dropping has been around for as long as cynos...granted caps are relatively cheap nowadays, and considered pretty much disposable. this is an economy issue perhaps and has nothing to do with Alphas.
ahh yes the art of hot-dropping made easier by ccp.. which alpha's true alpha's have zero chance against.. thanks to the likes of ccp fozzie.. i can pull right up beside them in a cloaky prospect and hot drop hell on earth onto the new bros... reassuring they will never ever come back to null sec again... no mass limits, the only struggle i have is making sure i have enough cyno juice
working as intended..
the funniest hot drop ive witnessed was dropping a nyx on 1 single ratting battleship.. all cause it was a fair..
|
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5990
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:17:26 -
[27] - Quote
The problem is that null-sec f*cks with every area of space. They antagonize wormholes and low-sec whenever it suits them, unbalance Faction Warfare, exploit high-sec income with alts then gank and burn everything for kicks. POCOs were supposed to generate content but all that happened is null-sec (once again) monopolized it. And what about Citadels in high-sec? That's a null-sec cartel controlling the free market in Perimeter.
As for the funniest hot drop, that had to be the one where I had several carriers (including a Revenant), dreads, a slew of battleships, T3s and other assorted ships dropped on my sole Thanatos. Nothing like overkill or whoring for a killmail...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Scovia Aumer
SA travel inc.
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:17:52 -
[28] - Quote
I imagine that a large number of Alphas was turned away when there was 8 year old players who was shooting wardeced alphas in rookiezones. Sure it is like shooting fish in a barrel but still is a ****** move and will turn people away. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
488
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:23:18 -
[29] - Quote
piemmed you milla!
am i the only one that laugh so much when i read in the patch notes:
Relaxed the throttling on giving orders to Fighter Squadrons. This should result in less occurrences of busy squadrons during high APM usage.
and start imagining HIGH APM USAGE in a battle of 3k people in 10% TiDi? |
Cade Windstalker
1057
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:25:16 -
[30] - Quote
It's not all that surprising that numbers are falling around now though. They've fallen in late winter/early spring every year since the massive influx in winter 2009.
Plus we're still a good 5-10k above the monthly average for the six months right before Ascension released.
IMO it's still way too early to declare that Alpha Clones and this F2P experiment have 'failed' |
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3181
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:29:11 -
[31] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:piemmed you milla! am i the only one that laugh so much when i read in the patch notes: Relaxed the throttling on giving orders to Fighter Squadrons. This should result in less occurrences of busy squadrons during high APM usage.
and start imagining HIGH APM USAGE in a battle of 3k people in 10% TiDi? are the devs trolling or at what kind of game are they playing atm instead of eve?
The high APM situation they are talking about right now is carrier/super ratting. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
1498
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:30:09 -
[32] - Quote
mkint wrote:Progressing past rookie is mostly a matter of getting lucky and finding a corp that doesn't suck... This.
Everything else is just the colour hue of the icing on the cake.
Remove standings and insurance.
|
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
519
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:37:20 -
[33] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:piemmed you milla! am i the only one that laugh so much when i read in the patch notes: Relaxed the throttling on giving orders to Fighter Squadrons. This should result in less occurrences of busy squadrons during high APM usage.
and start imagining HIGH APM USAGE in a battle of 3k people in 10% TiDi? are the devs trolling or at what kind of game are they playing atm instead of eve?
i honestly cringed reading that patch note
my mind went "da fuk dey zink dey doin" |
Vic Jefferson
Knights of Poitot Rote Kapelle
1185
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:57:41 -
[34] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec.
Loss is among the only things that makes EvE unique from other games. Everything is already too cheap, too easy to replace thanks to the current era of nothing being scarce. EvE needs to play to it's strengths more - an unabashed, unrepentant universe that does not hold your hand.
I miss the old Aura. She was literally the voice of a sardonic, indifferent universe, the dystopia we all love and want to return to.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
|
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:58:08 -
[35] - Quote
Torin Corax wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
Nothing new about this. It's been around longer than I have that's for sure. Ask me about batphoning a drunken Titan pilot to come gank a nano fleet (back in the nano*** vagabond days), when Doomsdays wiped a grid. Fair? Perhaps not....but it was funny as ****. I love drunken titan pilots with a sense of humor Hot dropping has been around for as long as cynos...granted caps are relatively cheap nowadays, and considered pretty much disposable. this is an economy issue perhaps and has nothing to do with Alphas.
I disagree about it having nothing to do with alphas. That kind of economy issue has to do with everyone trying to pick a fight, which includes alphas.
Batphoning a drunken titan pilot is a perfectly good answer, but it requires the guy with the batphone to have a drunken titan pilot friend. If you can't beat them, join them-and that's why big alliances keep getting bigger and starving for content between wars. Nobody small wants to fight them because it will end badly. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3181
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:03:52 -
[36] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. Loss is among the only things that makes EvE unique from other games. Everything is already too cheap, too easy to replace thanks to the current era of nothing being scarce. EvE needs to play to it's strengths more - an unabashed, unrepentant universe that does not hold your hand. I miss the old Aura. She was literally the voice of a sardonic, indifferent universe, the dystopia we all love and want to return to.
I didn't play back them but I'm unsure I want to go there so "we all" is incorrect. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
489
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:04:21 -
[37] - Quote
Kaybella Hakaari wrote:Torin Corax wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
Nothing new about this. It's been around longer than I have that's for sure. Ask me about batphoning a drunken Titan pilot to come gank a nano fleet (back in the nano*** vagabond days), when Doomsdays wiped a grid. Fair? Perhaps not....but it was funny as ****. I love drunken titan pilots with a sense of humor Hot dropping has been around for as long as cynos...granted caps are relatively cheap nowadays, and considered pretty much disposable. this is an economy issue perhaps and has nothing to do with Alphas. I disagree about it having nothing to do with alphas. That kind of economy issue has to do with everyone trying to pick a fight, which includes alphas. Batphoning a drunken titan pilot is a perfectly good answer, but it requires the guy with the batphone to have a drunken titan pilot friend. If you can't beat them, join them-and that's why big alliances keep getting bigger and starving for content between wars. Nobody small wants to fight them because it will end badly.
i mean.... i tried to tackle a titan with my astero.... went as expected! had to warp out (the titan) |
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
143
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:24:22 -
[38] - Quote
Meh, just make it F2P and able to get all skills and stuff, just start selling stuff! for RL iskies!
EVE is P2W anyways.
Offcourse this will never happen! Enough suckers (like me) who will keep forking out the subscription fee.
I do wonder what would make them more iskies... paid subscription or paid content. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3182
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:36:01 -
[39] - Quote
000Hunter000 wrote:Meh, just make it F2P and able to get all skills and stuff, just start selling stuff! for RL iskies! EVE is P2W anyways. Offcourse this will never happen! Enough suckers (like me) who will keep forking out the subscription fee. I do wonder what would make them more iskies... paid subscription or paid content.
The core game design would make such approach really bad. What would you sell anyway? |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
489
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:41:47 -
[40] - Quote
000Hunter000 wrote:Meh, just make it F2P and able to get all skills and stuff, just start selling stuff! for RL iskies! EVE is P2W anyways. Offcourse this will never happen! Enough suckers (like me) who will keep forking out the subscription fee. I do wonder what would make them more iskies... paid subscription or paid content.
obviously paid for content is more lucrative! you have plenty examples all around the game scene...
question is another one tbh: - if it's obviously working as intended (iwill opt for this option ) then devs are doing godly work! - if money are not the object (dream on kids) and they are actually try to improve the gameplay... then devs are emh.. what are those words...? ah yea HARD WORKERS . |
|
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15328
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 20:50:58 -
[41] - Quote
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.
For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.
CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.
Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).
They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.
There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......
|
Cade Windstalker
1060
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:01:58 -
[42] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too. For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power. CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec. Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc). They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity( the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be. There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......
I don't really agree with a lot of this...
The basic claim here is that Eve has lost a substantial amount of its challenge and complexity, but the vast majority of examples you can give here are either examples of "player VS UI" or just frustrating mistakes that don't really have much impact beyond wasting player time.
IMO Eve is a better game if the bad decisions a player makes are actual bad decisions and not the consequence of a UI induced error. For example Safeties haven't stopped people from committing a stupid mistake and getting exploded for it. I've personally witnessed several examples of people with their safeties set to red forgetting they were in High Sec and shooting someone they'd just been chasing through Low, and that's just the ones that immediately come to mind.
I've also spent a good chunk of my Eve career helping and guiding New Players, and I can say with some certainty that an initial lack of direction is the number one reason people lose interest in the game. If I had 50mil for every time I've seen someone say "so I did the Career agents, now what?" I'd be able to buy enough PLEX to leave my account to my Grandchildren.
It's not that these players are bad, or uncreative, they just honestly don't know enough about the game to have a feel for what they should be doing in it, and floundering around isn't a ton of fun. Mostly these players' questions have been answered by other players who have pointed them at player-made guides and resources to get them over this wall, but only a tiny fraction of people who really would likely quite like this game and do well in it actually end up in contact with resources like that or find someone who can explain things in a way that gets them moving on into a part of Eve they like.
I think a lot of older players view the "Golden Age" as the days of zero 'hand holding' is just because that's the period they started in and played through, and everything seems better with enough time behind it. After all you don't remember the frustration of accidentally blowing yourself up and raging at the UI for it, you just remember that it happened and kinda laugh at it. By definition the players that made it through those times were fine with the issues the game had back then, but that doesn't mean that they aren't issues or that rounding off the sharp edges on the UI is a bad thing. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5992
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:02:55 -
[43] - Quote
Well Jenn, I can't disagree with most of what you're saying. But active player numbers are still spiralling into the drain...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Salvos Rhoska
2388
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:18:53 -
[44] - Quote
I recently tried the NPE "tutorial".
The bizarre thing about it was though its very good, once its over, EVE still (ofc) kicks you in the balls and head.
The NPE is almost TOO good, in that it creates the illusion this game is guided/formatted like other MMOs.
Suddenly when Aura disappears, and you are dropped into the EVE reality, from an even more false sense of safety than before.
It reminds me of a nature documentary where ducks had chosen a hollow high up in a tree as a nest, rather than down by the water as usual. When the chicks came of age, the mother flew out and waited on the forest floor far below.
The chicks, despondent, jumped from that high, safe hole, their useless wings flapping pointlessly, fortunately to be saved from death by a thick leaf coverage below.
Then mother and ducklings begin the perilous journey to water.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
|
Marcus Heth
1
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:27:18 -
[45] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too. For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power. CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec. Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc). They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity( the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be. There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......
This needs repeating. EVE did well because it wasn't mainstream, not in spite of it. Trying to make it more mainstream/safe/more hand holding/less harsh only hurts it.
|
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1352
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:29:35 -
[46] - Quote
You realize that its 6 months since Ascension right? 6 months is the exact time to max out a character to that magical 5mil SP farming amount and so the need to log in daily is gone as a plex is introduced to the lifecycle of the account and farming commences and the need to log in drops to once a month....
That those who have tried for the new content, like ALL the other patches before, have come and gone.
That those that tried for the first time because its free have either left or the chosen few have stayed.
Nope its about the same as almost every big patch Ive seen since 03.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8241
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:32:02 -
[47] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:They can still make WIS and landing on planets like they planned before.
OT: Wonderful name and image fitting to the name there. Good job.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3182
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:34:13 -
[48] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I recently tried the NPE "tutorial".
The bizarre thing about it was though its very good, once its over, EVE still (ofc) kicks you in the balls and head.
The NPE is almost TOO good, in that it creates the illusion this game is guided/formatted like other MMOs.
Suddenly when Aura disappears, and you are dropped into the EVE reality, from an even more false sense of safety than before.
It reminds me of a nature documentary where ducks had chosen a hollow high up in a tree as a nest, rather than down by the water as usual. When the chicks came of age, the mother flew out and waited on the forest floor far below.
The chicks, despondent, jumped from that high, safe hole, their useless wings flapping pointlessly, fortunately to be saved from death by a thick leaf coverage below.
Then mother and ducklings begin the perilous journey to water.
SO if there are no leaves on the ground, the player is automatically lost as potential revenue because he does not understand WTF? |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8241
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:35:16 -
[49] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too. For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power. CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec. Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc). They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity( the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be. There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......
Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47260
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:37:31 -
[50] - Quote
30% revenue increase in 2016:
http://www.mmogames.com/gamenews/eve-online-propels-ccp-games-profits/
EVE nominated for a BAFTA in 2017 as best evolving game:
http://www.bafta.org/games/games-awards-nominees-2017#evolving-game
Not bad for a failure. |
|
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1352
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:38:22 -
[51] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too. For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power. CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec. Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc). They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity( the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be. There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you...... Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel. Your my boy blue!!
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6134
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:53:30 -
[52] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:
Scamming - big problem Ganking - big problem Risk vs Reward - CCP have nerfed reward its pathetic. I mean you do a lvl 3 mission and you get literally not much for your efforts Immersion - the game can be terribly boring, missions are boring, pvp well isnt exactly exciting, there is no life in eve, you only ever see someone at a station or at a gate really, there is nothing in between. Citadels help a little on that but i want to see more life happening.
I would love to see more actual aliens, instead of humanoids. NPCs are just things, there is no reality to them. The NPE was getting somewhere needs to be implemented into missions.
The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.
I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.
Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
Ahh look an ignorant player speaking about things he knows nothing about.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15333
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:54:11 -
[53] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too. For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power. CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec. Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc). They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity( the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be. There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you...... Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel.
Don't feel bad, I just clicked like on a Salvos Rhoska post. What the **** is happening here, and why are my feet cold?
|
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
490
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 21:58:41 -
[54] - Quote
lel
more income doesn't mean better game it just means that CCP found a better way to milk players
as a customer i call that a failure. as a company i call that success.
#PointOfViews |
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
144
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:14:45 -
[55] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: The core game design would make such approach really bad. What would you sell anyway?
/Me points at skins, but then just... well everything! U want a carrier, just buy one in the market with real moneys.
Not like u can't do it atm anyways, now u just have to buy plex, sell plex, buy ship/item/skill/whatever required.
Sounds horrible right? yeah, when CCP introduced plex, I personally certainly thought: 'well there goes the neighbourhood' and tbfh i was right! Too many douches who just enjoy getting cheap kills on unsuspecting noobs.
And no, nobody buthurt me recently, just the venting of a grumpy ol' vet |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1185
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:15:17 -
[56] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:The problem is that null-sec f*cks with every area of space. They antagonize wormholes and low-sec whenever it suits them, unbalance Faction Warfare, exploit high-sec income with alts then gank and burn everything for kicks. POCOs were supposed to generate content but all that happened is null-sec (once again) monopolized it. And what about Citadels in high-sec? That's a null-sec cartel controlling the free market in Perimeter.
As for the funniest hot drop, that had to be the one where I had several carriers (including a Revenant), dreads, a slew of battleships, T3s and other assorted ships dropped on my sole Thanatos. Nothing like overkill or whoring for a killmail...
Ah yes, tears over "blobbing".
You sir, are a caricature of a carebear. A Poe. Gotta be...
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47262
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:22:15 -
[57] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:lel more income doesn't mean better game it just means that CCP found a better way to milk players as a customer i call that a failure. as a company i call that success. #PointOfViews Even customers can see rising revenue and critical acknowledgement as failure.
Such a failure that as a community, we have given them more money. That'll teach them. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
494
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:30:41 -
[58] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Soel Reit wrote:lel more income doesn't mean better game it just means that CCP found a better way to milk players as a customer i call that a failure. as a company i call that success. #PointOfViews Even customers can see rising revenue and critical acknowledgement as failure. Such a failure that as a community, we have given them more money. That'll teach them.
you can't teach them lol the only way would be a community united taking actions... but i mean... let's talk about serious stuff |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59918
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:36:18 -
[59] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:It's not all that surprising that numbers are falling around now though. They've fallen in late winter/early spring every year since the massive influx in winter 2009.
Plus we're still a good 5-10k above the monthly average for the six months right before Ascension released.
IMO it's still way too early to declare that Alpha Clones and this F2P experiment have 'failed' Agree 100%.
This is the nature of the beast called Eve.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8243
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:37:52 -
[60] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too. For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power. CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec. Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc). They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity( the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be. There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you...... Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel. Don't feel bad, I just clicked like on a Salvos Rhoska post. What the **** is happening here, and why are my feet cold?
Just wait
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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NofriendNoLifeStilPostin
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:48:34 -
[61] - Quote
they all quit the game when they realized suicide ganking under the protection of high sec was commonplace and risk-free thing.
really makes eve into a joke of a game. |
roberts dragon
Beak Enterprises TRUE VINE
35
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:48:59 -
[62] - Quote
killers of the game as i see it is npc corps , after tutorial new players should auto join corps with isd/devs running this corp and any kind hearted vets who do make a differnce with thier help and advise .
many players just want pvp then give them it . example arena who wants the crown as top player it wont be me.
many players just want pve then give them it. no gank up to 0.9/8 max .
remove concord so in 0.8 or lower what ever you decide then players are game on
open up all areas so corps dont just camp the gates with bubbles , not a clue how you do that but open it up.
i stopped playing solo joined a corp , starting to have fun just need to find the other corp who we war with to have the pvp battle looking foward to it .
just a few examples off the top of me head and are only suggestions to get players to play as a team rather than single player .
the game has a good ethos and a good mantra
wish you all well and good health |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
495
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 22:51:24 -
[63] - Quote
roberts dragon wrote:killers of the game as i see it is npc corps , after tutorial new players should auto join corps with isd/devs running this corp and any kind hearted vets who do make a differnce with thier help and advise .
many players just want pvp then give them it . example arena who wants the crown as top player it wont be me.
many players just want pve then give them it. no gank up to 0.9/8 max .
remove concord so in 0.8 or lower what ever you decide then players are game on
open up all areas so corps dont just camp the gates with bubbles , not a clue how you do that but open it up.
i stopped playing solo joined a corp , starting to have fun just need to find the other corp who we war with to have the pvp battle looking foward to it .
just a few examples off the top of me head and are only suggestions to get players to play as a team rather than single player .
the game has a good ethos and a good mantra
wish you all well and good health
happy to hear that, just one point: why give them what they want? they are big enough to take it by themself |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
1142
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 23:55:11 -
[64] - Quote
Problem with this game imo it have
exceptionally pathetic PVE
Depression inducing mining
rather average PVP
Grifing CCP supported
Scamming
Game went from sandbox to pvp game with sandbox elements one is game destined for greatness later one in niche dying game choice was made.
instead of pouring tens of million dollars in EVE it was wasted elsewhere choices were made.
Engine is outdated ideas are stale last real expansion was Apocrypha.
But please as talking points are irrelevant and what i and other thinks are too do remove all that is sorta good from high sec to low / null if that is to bring game back to life so be it il gladly take up on that ride or wont.
"You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear"n++
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6135
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:07:31 -
[65] - Quote
NofriendNoLifeStilPostin wrote:they all quit the game when they realized suicide ganking under the protection of high sec was commonplace and risk-free thing.
really makes eve into a joke of a game.
You still spouting this idiocy?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6135
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:10:04 -
[66] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Problem with this game imo it have
exceptionally pathetic PVE
Depression inducing mining
rather average PVP
Grifing CCP supported
Scamming
Game went from sandbox to pvp game with sandbox elements one is game destined for greatness later one in niche dying game choice was made.
instead of pouring tens of million dollars in EVE it was wasted elsewhere choices were made.
Engine is outdated ideas are stale last real expansion was Apocrypha.
But please as talking points are irrelevant and what i and other thinks are too do remove all that is sorta good from high sec to low / null if that is to bring game back to life so be it il gladly take up on that ride or wont.
Eve has always been niche.
Eve has always been a PVP sandbox. Granted CCP has removed some parts of the sandbox and that is probably were some of the issues lies. However, these removals have been at the behest of players like you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
1279
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:11:22 -
[67] - Quote
No offense but I think the claim that the free-2-play model has failed is baseless and crazy. The hype's down okay I can agree there. Otherwise this game is on a straight upward trajectory. Eve Online has it's peaks and valleys - I'm sure when whatever is next on the roadmap is announced you'll see another influx of new and returning players.
Have a nice day.
@lunettelulu7
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MadMuppet
A Better Corp Name
1269
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:18:37 -
[68] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:SNIP
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated.
*Skill training should be at the same speed as regular played for 14 days, then go to the limited Alpha rate. That speed can only be engaged by FINISHING the NPE to keep the alt spammers at bay *I do not agree with limiting to high-sec only, but I will say that after 30 days, you can only train while in high-sec as an Alpha. *L4s should remain in high-sec. They are needed as feed-stock to get players in to battleships.. the top end of the initial ship line in my opinion. High-sec L4s should be limited to battleships and lower. No Marauders and their ilk. They can limit that with jump gates. I hate incursions across the board, but I think HS incusrions should be nerfed in LP payout. (sorry guys) Ice in HIgh-sec is already a race so I do not think it would be of benefit to get rid of it (players train it and then go do it elsewhere). If they want to be sneaky about it. Slowly reduce the HS ice belt spawn size. *Insurance is an abuse point. I am waiting to see people take advantage of insurance with the super-low mineral prices from the Roqual buffs(soon)tm *To be honest, I don't think this is worth the coding time. I wouldn't mind getting a 1-per-year implant remover though for Omegas.
-MAD
This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.
"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5997
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:31:03 -
[69] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:No offense but I think the claim that the free-2-play model has failed is baseless and crazy. The hype's down okay I can agree there. Otherwise this game is on a straight upward trajectory. Eve Online has it's peaks and valleys - I'm sure when whatever is next on the roadmap is announced you'll see another influx of new and returning players. I guess only time will tell. If thousands of players have dropped subscriptions to become Alphas along with the rapid decline in active players, I would hardly call that a success. And winter is actually peak activity time for EVE players, so the fact that activity has been declining all winter does not bode well going into summer...
Roadmap? You mean the one that's literally been written in crayon for the past few years? To call it a 'roadmap' would infer that there's been an actual development plan. Fozziesov is a disaster... Citadels are a disaster... Alphas are an unmitigated disaster.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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goudaMob
TunDraGon Lost Obsession
14
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:33:33 -
[70] - Quote
wtb 6 years ago. |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47269
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 01:57:24 -
[71] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:If thousands of players have dropped subscriptions to become Alphas... Have they?
Quote:...along with the rapid decline in active players,... What rapid decline? How many players are active?
If you are going off PCU count, it is not; and has never been a measure of the number of active players.
https://youtu.be/h-jfvjMoe9Y?t=204
In particular, this slide:
https://puu.sh/uDuwy/d40321e21b.png
That's for 2014, obviously not now; but demonstrates clearly that PCU =/= number of active players. |
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 02:48:00 -
[72] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:000Hunter000 wrote:Meh, just make it F2P and able to get all skills and stuff, just start selling stuff! for RL iskies! EVE is P2W anyways. Offcourse this will never happen! Enough suckers (like me) who will keep forking out the subscription fee. I do wonder what would make them more iskies... paid subscription or paid content. obviously paid for content is more lucrative! you have plenty examples all around the game scene... question is another one tbh: - if it's obviously working as intended (iwill opt for this option ) then devs are doing godly work! - if money are not the object (dream on kids) and they are actually try to improve the gameplay... then devs are emh.. what are those words...? ah yea HARD WORKERS . Paid content is more lucrative in the sort term, but tends to fragment the community.
It's a seriously bad idea in a game where the community is the content and you want the game to last more than a couple of years. |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2560
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 03:22:20 -
[73] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go. How does forcing players opposed to a play style into that play style boost subscriptions?
MMOs have traditionally had around a 1 / 10 PvP to PvE ratio - that means around 1 of every 10 people will go to low null the others won't. The other 9 will be happy to farm / mission / manufacture while paying their sub.
Trying to force those people to do something they don't want to do is idiotic and counterproductive to EvEs longevity
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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mkint
1561
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 04:08:29 -
[74] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:No offense but I think the claim that the free-2-play model has failed is baseless and crazy. The hype's down okay I can agree there. Otherwise this game is on a straight upward trajectory. Eve Online has it's peaks and valleys - I'm sure when whatever is next on the roadmap is announced you'll see another influx of new and returning players. Have a nice day. Even at the peak of the Alpha rush, the tcu barely matched a normal day from 3 years ago when it had already been in decline for several years. And now it's back to only about where it was 1 year ago, except now that number reflects a bunch of accounts that do not generate revenue. The comments saying last year around this time the activity numbers were doing their seasonal drop... no, they weren't. They were rising slightly before falling more dramatically a little later.
EVE has been on a steady decline in TCU for years. It's going to continue to decline because of what's on the roadmap, because what's on the roadmap is all about creating new tools to market the game rather than tools to retain customers. CCP loves their "biggest battle ever!" press, it gets people to try the game, and the entire roadmap functions to cause more of those news stories. With F2P, less of the interest generated from those stories will translate to increased revenue because people can jump in and see that not only is that not a normal part of the game, but it's not even a fun part of the game. There is less focus now on the emergent behavior and interesting personal stories that led to EVE's golden age.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6135
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 04:23:17 -
[75] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go. How does forcing players opposed to a play style into that play style boost subscriptions? MMOs have traditionally had around a 1 / 10 PvP to PvE ratio - that means around 1 of every 10 people will go to low null the others won't. The other 9 will be happy to farm / mission / manufacture while paying their sub. Trying to force those people to do something they don't want to do is idiotic and counterproductive to EvEs longevity
The worst thing about Alpha accounts is you. Just an FYI.
Nobody is forced into any play style. Playing the game is a voluntary action. What you do in game is largely voluntary. When you overload your freighter with 7 billion in cargo, nobody made the player do that but himself. Clicking undock is a voluntary action. Nobody made the player do that but himself. Warping into a 0.5 system that many ships have to pass through is a voluntary action, nobody is making him do that. Not using a scout, webs, or even fitting a tank are all voluntary actions the player took.
You are whining on the behalf of players who have take several steps, each of which has increased their risk of gank. You are whining for people who are taking on considerable risk....in a game where is you take on too much risk other players will take advantage of it.
Seriously, answer this question: If I take on too much risk why should I be shielded from that decision?
I bet you can't answer that question.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Conrad Makbure
Trident Expedition
124
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 04:28:26 -
[76] - Quote
mkint wrote:I'm opposed to all of this. People don't quit EVE because it's too safe or whatever. They quit because they've run out of adventures/new experiences that are worthwhile, or achievable goals worth striving for. It's true for rookies and vets alike. Buffing low/breaking high won't make people move to low. It'll make them get a netflix subscription. It will make the experiences appear less worthwhile and goals less achievable. It would cause rapid deflation and greater power imbalances, making the long running and ever increasing nullsec stagnation even worse, driving more vets into other games.
Alphas and F2P have failed because people get started in EVE and have no sense of place or direction. Very few breadcrumbs leading to meaningful adventure. The early impressions are that the PVE is trite, the PVP is inaccessible. The more subtle playstyles are too subtle to even be recognizable to a neophyte. Progressing past rookie is mostly a matter of getting lucky and finding a corp that doesn't suck, which is a terrible business model, but it does reinforce that the game itself is mostly fine but the tools to explore the game are not.
Thank you, someone who actually has a clue, ESPECIALLY with breaking hi-sec. Why don't people understand that forcing content out of hi-sec into low/null doesn't work?? You can't force people to move to low or null, there has to be good incentive to move out on one's own, and honestly, there isn't any. I agree, games like EVE are about adventure and discovering the unknown (new content, not yet found).
Contrary to popular belief, there are many people out there who don't want to be an alliance drone. There has to be other things to do in the PVP realm. |
mkint
1563
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 04:33:36 -
[77] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go. How does forcing players opposed to a play style into that play style boost subscriptions? MMOs have traditionally had around a 1 / 10 PvP to PvE ratio - that means around 1 of every 10 people will go to low null the others won't. The other 9 will be happy to farm / mission / manufacture while paying their sub. Trying to force those people to do something they don't want to do is idiotic and counterproductive to EvEs longevity The worst thing about Alpha accounts is you. Just an FYI. Nobody is forced into any play style. Playing the game is a voluntary action. What you do in game is largely voluntary. When you overload your freighter with 7 billion in cargo, nobody made the player do that but himself. Clicking undock is a voluntary action. Nobody made the player do that but himself. Warping into a 0.5 system that many ships have to pass through is a voluntary action, nobody is making him do that. Not using a scout, webs, or even fitting a tank are all voluntary actions the player took. You are whining on the behalf of players who have take several steps, each of which has increased their risk of gank. You are whining for people who are taking on considerable risk....in a game where is you take on too much risk other players will take advantage of it. Seriously, answer this question: If I take on too much risk why should I be shielded from that decision? I bet you can't answer that question. You're reading too much into that comment, I think. The context is "take everything even remotely interesting away from highsec and put it in low/null." The comment you're getting worked up over I think can be summed up as "if you do that, then 90% of the players will just choose to not play, as that is also an option." I didn't interpret it to mean the game should be risk free, only that the majority of players are risk averse, which I don't think can even be reasonably argued.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2561
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 04:36:10 -
[78] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go. How does forcing players opposed to a play style into that play style boost subscriptions? MMOs have traditionally had around a 1 / 10 PvP to PvE ratio - that means around 1 of every 10 people will go to low null the others won't. The other 9 will be happy to farm / mission / manufacture while paying their sub. Trying to force those people to do something they don't want to do is idiotic and counterproductive to EvEs longevity The worst thing about Alpha accounts is you. Just an FYI. Nobody is forced into any play style. Playing the game is a voluntary action. What you do in game is largely voluntary. When you overload your freighter with 7 billion in cargo, nobody made the player do that but himself. Clicking undock is a voluntary action. Nobody made the player do that but himself. Warping into a 0.5 system that many ships have to pass through is a voluntary action, nobody is making him do that. Not using a scout, webs, or even fitting a tank are all voluntary actions the player took. You are whining on the behalf of players who have take several steps, each of which has increased their risk of gank. You are whining for people who are taking on considerable risk....in a game where is you take on too much risk other players will take advantage of it. Seriously, answer this question: If I take on too much risk why should I be shielded from that decision? I bet you can't answer that question. Economics
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6135
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 04:48:01 -
[79] - Quote
goudaMob wrote:wtb 6 years ago.
I wish it were that simple. When you have a process that has spontaneous order and emergence, a sandbox, you can't "go backwards". Evolution is such a process and we cannot ever go back to the time when dinosaurs walked the earth (outside of the movies). As such we cannot go back to the "Good Ol' Days". What can be done is note that catering to the whiners like Hakawai and Infinity Ziona is not a recipe for success. Reducing PvP, reducing player interaction in EVE is not going to save the game. In fact, it has been very bad for the game in terms of players logging in, IMO.
I have to agree with Jenn aSide. When EVE said, here is your rookie ship, here are few things you need to know, now **** off. That was when the game was growing. Ganking was actually easier. Can flipping was a thing. If you were jet can mining you had to be on the watch for some can flipper. Hulkageddon was a thing, yet outside of that miner ganking was reasonably rare. War decs were cheap, yet there were lots of small corps doing war decs. 2-3 corps could band together and stand a chance and even force the war deccers back into station. All that is gone now, and gone forever. I doubt you can bring back any of it.
I also agree with Salvos, a NPE that is too good might be more detrimental than helpful. Too much hand holding can be bad. When I first started there was practically nothing on the capacitor other than these announcements that "the capcitor is empty". I was like, "WTF is the capacitor?" I was on my own to find out lots of stuff. That is called learning by doing and you know what, when you figure something out for yourself you tend to learn the lesson better, understand it better.
My son was a competitive swimmer. And one thing I learned from that experience is encapsulated by this little anecdote. He had some very bad habits and we hired one of his coaches for private lessons. She and I were talking one day and he was in the pool, he was like 7 in t he deep end with the diving well (i.e. very deep) and he was in the water "goofing off". I turned to him and told him to stop goofing off as he disappeared again under the water. His coach said to me, "No, that's good." I asked, "What?" She replied, "What he is doing. He is goofing off sure, but he is also learning. He is learning the path of most resistance. And he has to do that to learn the path of least resistance." I looked at her for a few seconds, looked at him as he disappeared under the water again while smiling, and nodded. Yes, he has to learn what will slow him down in the water so he can "not do that" in a race. It was counter-intuitive at first, but upon reflection it made sense. Eve is like that, first you must learn the "path of most resistance" before you can see the "path of least resistance".
Hakawai and Infinity Ziona are bad, not because they have ill intent, but because their good intentions will enervate new players; leave them less capable than if they had been left to their own devices. Yes, initially those devices would be ineffective and even ridiculous. But by having to figure things out for themselves they'd learn the mechanics better and in the end be better players. Players who can survive in the harsh environment of EVE. Yes, it is not a game for everyone. But so what? It was doing fine as a niche game. CCP should have not panicked if the PCU number stopped going up at a given rate. Bass diffusion models predict that kind of thing. The response the Hakawai-Ziona response was most unfortunate in that it is likely why the PCU started to trend down.
The solution, IMO, is not to make the game progressively safer. That has not been working, IMO. The solution is to return to the notion that in EVE you aren't safe anywhere except while docked and maybe while cloaked at a decent safe spot. Stop worrying about ganking, scamming and all the rest. You get that kind of thing in a sandbox game and it is fine. It teaches players who are overly trusting not to be. It teaches players who take on too much risk not too.
EVE players do not need to be molly coddled.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59923
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:06:15 -
[80] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:EVE players do not need to be molly coddled. What's hurting the game is CCP dumbing down everything making it easy mode for the Instant Gratification crowd. There's no more 'Specialized' careers left in the game.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6136
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:06:33 -
[81] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go. How does forcing players opposed to a play style into that play style boost subscriptions? MMOs have traditionally had around a 1 / 10 PvP to PvE ratio - that means around 1 of every 10 people will go to low null the others won't. The other 9 will be happy to farm / mission / manufacture while paying their sub. Trying to force those people to do something they don't want to do is idiotic and counterproductive to EvEs longevity The worst thing about Alpha accounts is you. Just an FYI. Nobody is forced into any play style. Playing the game is a voluntary action. What you do in game is largely voluntary. When you overload your freighter with 7 billion in cargo, nobody made the player do that but himself. Clicking undock is a voluntary action. Nobody made the player do that but himself. Warping into a 0.5 system that many ships have to pass through is a voluntary action, nobody is making him do that. Not using a scout, webs, or even fitting a tank are all voluntary actions the player took. You are whining on the behalf of players who have take several steps, each of which has increased their risk of gank. You are whining for people who are taking on considerable risk....in a game where is you take on too much risk other players will take advantage of it. Seriously, answer this question: If I take on too much risk why should I be shielded from that decision? I bet you can't answer that question. Economics
You have to be the most quintessential fool on the forums. Economics tells us that private profits and public losses does not work well at all. That market discipline, private profits and private losses in fact provides a self-regulating mechanism. Or if you prefer trial-and-error. You try something new, and it it either works and benefits you, or it doesn't and it costs you something and you stop. This kind of thing was common in banking. Prior to deposit insurance it used to be that depositors were worried and bankers were scared. Because depositors were worried that a bank might take on too much risk via lending, the banker would be more prudent in making loans. Because if he were not then his bank would face a run and he'd be destroyed. In fact, it was this kind of thinking that lead FDR (and Carter Glass...yes the Glass of Glass-Steagal) to oppose insurance on bank deposits. On top of that every state level deposit insurance scheme had failed leading up to 1933. Any state that implemented deposit insurance collapsed because once the insurance program was up and running depositors stopped worrying and bankers made riskier and riskier loans until the insurance scheme collapsed under the weight of bad loans.
How does this relate to EVE? Suicide gankers and war decs impose risk on players. You want to overload your freighter, fine go ahead but the way the mechanics work somebody might come along and suicide gank your freighter and scoop the loot. What does this do for the game? It keeps the market going. There is the first and most obvious part. Stuff is destroyed. Then there is the second and maybe even more important: it keeps regional price differentials. If suicide ganking were eliminated price differentials would drop to near zero. That is, the careful and prudent pilot can find profits in New Eden by being careful and prudent. He can take advantage of price differentials. Remove the incentive to be prudent and everyone will fit their freighter one way, and in fact everyone will likely gravitate to just one freighter, the one with the biggest cargo hold. People would be moving stuff to eliminate price differentials between regions and even constellations. Over time those price differentials would become smaller and smaller until hauling provided only a small level of income. And why not, it is something you can do while largely being AFK--autopilot for the win.
Suicide gankers and wardecs put risk into the economy. And that is what makes the economic aspects of the game fun.
Remove that and you reduce fun.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2561
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:16:12 -
[82] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:goudaMob wrote:wtb 6 years ago. I wish it were that simple. When you have a process that has spontaneous order and emergence, a sandbox, you can't "go backwards". Evolution is such a process and we cannot ever go back to the time when dinosaurs walked the earth (outside of the movies). As such we cannot go back to the "Good Ol' Days". What can be done is note that catering to the whiners like Hakawai and Infinity Ziona is not a recipe for success. Reducing PvP, reducing player interaction in EVE is not going to save the game. In fact, it has been very bad for the game in terms of players logging in, IMO. I have to agree with Jenn aSide. When EVE said, here is your rookie ship, here are few things you need to know, now **** off. That was when the game was growing. Ganking was actually easier. Can flipping was a thing. If you were jet can mining you had to be on the watch for some can flipper. Hulkageddon was a thing, yet outside of that miner ganking was reasonably rare. War decs were cheap, yet there were lots of small corps doing war decs. 2-3 corps could band together and stand a chance and even force the war deccers back into station. All that is gone now, and gone forever. I doubt you can bring back any of it. I also agree with Salvos, a NPE that is too good might be more detrimental than helpful. Too much hand holding can be bad. When I first started there was practically nothing on the capacitor other than these announcements that "the capcitor is empty". I was like, "WTF is the capacitor?" I was on my own to find out lots of stuff. That is called learning by doing and you know what, when you figure something out for yourself you tend to learn the lesson better, understand it better. My son was a competitive swimmer. And one thing I learned from that experience is encapsulated by this little anecdote. He had some very bad habits and we hired one of his coaches for private lessons. She and I were talking one day and he was in the pool, he was like 7 in t he deep end with the diving well (i.e. very deep) and he was in the water "goofing off". I turned to him and told him to stop goofing off as he disappeared again under the water. His coach said to me, "No, that's good." I asked, "What?" She replied, "What he is doing. He is goofing off sure, but he is also learning. He is learning the path of most resistance. And he has to do that to learn the path of least resistance." I looked at her for a few seconds, looked at him as he disappeared under the water again while smiling, and nodded. Yes, he has to learn what will slow him down in the water so he can "not do that" in a race. It was counter-intuitive at first, but upon reflection it made sense. Eve is like that, first you must learn the "path of most resistance" before you can see the "path of least resistance". Hakawai and Infinity Ziona are bad, not because they have ill intent, but because their good intentions will enervate new players; leave them less capable than if they had been left to their own devices. Yes, initially those devices would be ineffective and even ridiculous. But by having to figure things out for themselves they'd learn the mechanics better and in the end be better players. Players who can survive in the harsh environment of EVE. Yes, it is not a game for everyone. But so what? It was doing fine as a niche game. CCP should have not panicked if the PCU number stopped going up at a given rate. Bass diffusion models predict that kind of thing. The response the Hakawai-Ziona response was most unfortunate in that it is likely why the PCU started to trend down. The solution, IMO, is not to make the game progressively safer. That has not been working, IMO. The solution is to return to the notion that in EVE you aren't safe anywhere except while docked and maybe while cloaked at a decent safe spot. Stop worrying about ganking, scamming and all the rest. You get that kind of thing in a sandbox game and it is fine. It teaches players who are overly trusting not to be. It teaches players who take on too much risk not too. EVE players do not need to be molly coddled. You don't know what you're talking about. I do because I saw EvE growing when highsec was safe. I saw it declining when the new devs lost the original vision and started the push to move players into areas of the game those players didn't want to go.
Its somewhat like opening a coffee shop that serves tea and coffee then trying to force your customers to drink tea even though the majority of potential clients want coffee. Bad business choices lose customers. You cater to as many customers as possible ideally adjusting your business to suit them. Not the other way around. It's why you can buy lamb big macs in India and halal big macs in predominantly Muslim areas here in Australia.
CCP are not the brightest and neither are you.
I suggest you read Alexander The Greats Art Of Strategy by Partha Bose
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Kaivarian Coste
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:19:29 -
[83] - Quote
Wasn't CCP's revenue up by 30% last year? |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2561
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:22:46 -
[84] - Quote
Kaivarian Coste wrote:Wasn't CCP's revenue up by 30% last year? Profits != Revenue. You can have a terrible few years then double your revenue and still be going broke
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6136
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:29:31 -
[85] - Quote
mkint wrote:
You're reading too much into that comment, I think. The context is "take everything even remotely interesting away from highsec and put it in low/null." The comment you're getting worked up over I think can be summed up as "if you do that, then 90% of the players will just choose to not play, as that is also an option." I didn't interpret it to mean the game should be risk free, only that the majority of players are risk averse, which I don't think can even be reasonably argued.
Yes, virtually all players are risk averse. In fact, anyone using the term risk aversion like some sort of insult is, IMO, fool who does not understand the term.
Still, HS is pretty damn safe if you are prudent. I was autopillocking around on some alts in shuttles with clones that had no implants. I figured the risks were minimal so why worry about it.
The problem with Infinity Ziona, Hakewai, et. al. is that they do not seem to grasp that risk in this game is not simply a function of mechanics but also of player actions. If I put 400 million into a freighter it is a very "ungank worthy" target. If put 4 billion in it becomes very "gank worthy". What is the difference here? Player action. So do we insulate players from the foolishness of their actions or not? The EVE view is "No! Do nto insulate them! Let them learn the errors of their ways."
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6136
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:30:41 -
[86] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Kaivarian Coste wrote:Wasn't CCP's revenue up by 30% last year? Profits != Revenue. You can have a terrible few years then double your revenue and still be going broke
No that is true, but CCP has reduced staff and even other aspects of their O&M spend. So it is probably a safe bet that profits are up.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6136
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:32:57 -
[87] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: You don't know what you're talking about. I do because I saw EvE growing when highsec was safe. I saw it declining when the new devs lost the original vision and started the push to move players into areas of the game those players didn't want to go.
Its somewhat like opening a coffee shop that serves tea and coffee then trying to force your customers to drink tea even though the majority of potential clients want coffee. Bad business choices lose customers. You cater to as many customers as possible ideally adjusting your business to suit them. Not the other way around. It's why you can buy lamb big macs in India and halal big macs in predominantly Muslim areas here in Australia.
CCP are not the brightest and neither are you.
I suggest you read Alexander The Greats Art Of Strategy by Partha Bose
HS was never "safe". In fact, back in the day CONCORD could be tanked. Suicide ganking was easier because of insurance. Then there was can flipping, war decs were cheaper.
This notion that HS was "safe" is nothing short of a bald faced lie on your part. Yes, you are a liar.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
mkint
1568
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:38:37 -
[88] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Kaivarian Coste wrote:Wasn't CCP's revenue up by 30% last year? Profits != Revenue. You can have a terrible few years then double your revenue and still be going broke Not only that, but standard accounting principles let a company amortize different losses and gains in different ways that can present a different picture from what actually happened. It could have had something to do with paying off loans or investments or something. It's even possible some of the valk tech was sold or licensed to occulus showing an increase in revenue regardless of what has happened in EVE. It doesn't change the fact that activity in EVE has been steadily dropping for years. Eventually will come the day when EVE is shut down, and I'd say hopefully CCP has a backup plan, except I'm not sure I will particularly care what happens to CCP after EVE's gone. My loyalty such as it is is to EVE rather than to CCP.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6136
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 05:46:05 -
[89] - Quote
mkint wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Kaivarian Coste wrote:Wasn't CCP's revenue up by 30% last year? Profits != Revenue. You can have a terrible few years then double your revenue and still be going broke Not only that, but standard accounting principles let a company amortize different losses and gains in different ways that can present a different picture from what actually happened. It could have had something to do with paying off loans or investments or something. It's even possible some of the valk tech was sold or licensed to occulus showing an increase in revenue regardless of what has happened in EVE. It doesn't change the fact that activity in EVE has been steadily dropping for years. Eventually will come the day when EVE is shut down, and I'd say hopefully CCP has a backup plan, except I'm not sure I will particularly care what happens to CCP after EVE's gone. My loyalty such as it is is to EVE rather than to CCP.
This is true of virtually all companies. Find me a company that is over 100 years old and there are probably 10s of thousands if not more companies that were "born", "lived" and "died". Someday people will be saying the same thing about Walmart...and ironically in a nostalgic almost wistful way, "What is the economy coming too when a long lived and profitable company like WalMart can no longer go on?!?!?"
Pfftt...complete nonsense.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2563
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 06:18:28 -
[90] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: You don't know what you're talking about. I do because I saw EvE growing when highsec was safe. I saw it declining when the new devs lost the original vision and started the push to move players into areas of the game those players didn't want to go.
Its somewhat like opening a coffee shop that serves tea and coffee then trying to force your customers to drink tea even though the majority of potential clients want coffee. Bad business choices lose customers. You cater to as many customers as possible ideally adjusting your business to suit them. Not the other way around. It's why you can buy lamb big macs in India and halal big macs in predominantly Muslim areas here in Australia.
CCP are not the brightest and neither are you.
I suggest you read Alexander The Greats Art Of Strategy by Partha Bose
HS was never "safe". In fact, back in the day CONCORD could be tanked. Suicide ganking was easier because of insurance. Then there was can flipping, war decs were cheaper. This notion that HS was "safe" is nothing short of a bald faced lie on your part. Yes, you are a liar. Hmmmmm
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
519
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 06:20:08 -
[91] - Quote
my loyalty to ccp games is beginning to dwindle all because it was this awesome trailer promised that we'd eventually get to.. the start of the 3 year roadmap which would lead us into the PROPHECY expansion
so can anyone here alpha or omega tell me .. what happened to the stargate? what came out of it? what and when will that event take place.. since its officially been 3 years later..
ill wait.
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2563
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 06:24:33 -
[92] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:my loyalty to ccp games is beginning to dwindle all because it was this awesome trailer promised that we'd eventually get to.. the start of the 3 year roadmap which would lead us into the PROPHECY expansionso can anyone here alpha or omega tell me .. what happened to the stargate? what came out of it? what and when will that event take place.. since its officially been 3 years later.. ill wait. We've been waiting almost 14 years for a decent non buggy drone interface - don't hold your breath.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Kanya Jade
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 06:36:22 -
[93] - Quote
[quote=Arthur Aihaken * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. [/quote] So you want to kill a number of corporations and alliances that attempt to give new players the training and education they need to survive and thrive in hostile space and make enough money in the game to become omega accounts via buying plex?
Pretty counter productive. |
morion
Lighting Build
200
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 06:58:12 -
[94] - Quote
echo ... echo ... echo ... |
morion
Lighting Build
200
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 07:00:05 -
[95] - Quote
When players stopped complimenting bias crap had hav identity well. game of alts 14 years Fail |
morion
Lighting Build
200
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 07:30:13 -
[96] - Quote
I think / my opinion / + alts is cancer |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
910
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 08:02:31 -
[97] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:EVE players do not need to be molly coddled. What's hurting the game is CCP dumbing down everything making it easy mode for the Instant Gratification crowd. There's no more 'Specialized' careers left in the game. DMC I've complained about that for years. Was always laughed out and otherwise ignored.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6137
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 08:03:51 -
[98] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: You don't know what you're talking about. I do because I saw EvE growing when highsec was safe. I saw it declining when the new devs lost the original vision and started the push to move players into areas of the game those players didn't want to go.
Its somewhat like opening a coffee shop that serves tea and coffee then trying to force your customers to drink tea even though the majority of potential clients want coffee. Bad business choices lose customers. You cater to as many customers as possible ideally adjusting your business to suit them. Not the other way around. It's why you can buy lamb big macs in India and halal big macs in predominantly Muslim areas here in Australia.
CCP are not the brightest and neither are you.
I suggest you read Alexander The Greats Art Of Strategy by Partha Bose
HS was never "safe". In fact, back in the day CONCORD could be tanked. Suicide ganking was easier because of insurance. Then there was can flipping, war decs were cheaper. This notion that HS was "safe" is nothing short of a bald faced lie on your part. Yes, you are a liar. Hmmmmm
There you go lying again. Black Pedro already took that one down.
As Black Pedro pointed out that post points out that piracy in 0.6 systems is not supposed to be easy. And it isn't compared to 0.4 and lower. But a complete liar like you will gloss over this point.
The bottom line is you are simply a liar.
Please report me, I don't care. Pointing out a person is lying when they are in fact lying is not disrespectful nor an attack. In fact, it is your post that should be removed as it is an affront to reasonable player, CCP, and CCP Oveur who is no longer around to defend himself.
Liar.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6137
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 08:06:27 -
[99] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:EVE players do not need to be molly coddled. What's hurting the game is CCP dumbing down everything making it easy mode for the Instant Gratification crowd. There's no more 'Specialized' careers left in the game. DMC I've complained about that for years. Was always laughed out and otherwise ignored.
We are all, to varying degrees, saying the same thing. Most players who come to EVE and stick around are reasonably intelligent. We have learned not only how to survive, but how to thrive in a harsh environment.
Some players think this is unacceptable and want to change the core nature of the game. I hope CCP stops listening to them, but I fear they won't.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
910
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 08:17:46 -
[100] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:EVE players do not need to be molly coddled. What's hurting the game is CCP dumbing down everything making it easy mode for the Instant Gratification crowd. There's no more 'Specialized' careers left in the game. DMC I've complained about that for years. Was always laughed out and otherwise ignored. We are all, to varying degrees, saying the same thing. Most players who come to EVE and stick around are reasonably intelligent. We have learned not only how to survive, but how to thrive in a harsh environment. Some players think this is unacceptable and want to change the core nature of the game. I hope CCP stops listening to them, but I fear they won't. CCP started this magical journey of micro transactions, casualisation of the game and catering to the instant gratification crowd 7 years ago. The game has been on a steady downhill ever since and the surge of players they're chasing after has yet to materialize. In their chase of profits in making EVE a mainstream MMO, all CCP has actually accomplished is alienating their trusted player base and telling the vets that supported this game for over a decade to "kindly **** off, we don't want nor need you anymore".
Some parts are greatly better to what they were 10 years ago, but CCP has also made a non-negligible amount of really ******** decisions that will eventually result in the death of EVE. It's too late to turn around, as those bridges are all burned, so all we've got left is hoping that CCPs plain actually pays off because if it doesn't, there is no alternative to EVE we could aggregate to. But then again if there were, EVE would have died a long, long time ago.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
|
|
Salvos Rhoska
2393
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 09:31:48 -
[101] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:I recently tried the NPE "tutorial".
The bizarre thing about it was though its very good, once its over, EVE still (ofc) kicks you in the balls and head.
The NPE is almost TOO good, in that it creates the illusion this game is guided/formatted like other MMOs.
Suddenly when Aura disappears, and you are dropped into the EVE reality, from an even more false sense of safety than before.
It reminds me of a nature documentary where ducks had chosen a hollow high up in a tree as a nest, rather than down by the water as usual. When the chicks came of age, the mother flew out and waited on the forest floor far below.
The chicks, despondent, jumped from that high, safe hole, their useless wings flapping pointlessly, fortunately to be saved from death by a thick leaf coverage below.
Then mother and ducklings begin the perilous journey to water. SO if there are no leaves on the ground, the player is automatically lost as potential revenue because he does not understand WTF?
Yes, that is a valid carry of the analogy, and Im glad you picked up on the leaves being what prevented the ducklings from dying immediately after leaving the high perched false safety of the nest.
The NPE wth all its beautifully done UIs, voice recordings, great progressive scenarios (isolated from EVE proper), leads to an expectation that EVE proper is like that too, whereas it certainly is not. Id imagine for some its quite a shock when the tutorial ends and they "hit the ground".
It reminded me of the X series space sims. There too a guided tutorial ends, and leaves you utterly dumbfounded as to what to do next, or how, in a very complex game. My experience with the X sims would have immunized me against that shock had I started EVE for the first time, now, today, but most players have never, ever played anything like EVE before.
When I first started EVE, I did so fully with the understanding that I was beginning a journey in a dangerous, extremely complicated game, rife with risk, aggression and competition. That was exactly WHY I came to EVE! I didnt know the specifics of how, but I knew the above.
Thus I did not splatter against the ground when I hit it, though it still hurt, but tried to aim for a leafy landing, and immediately started waddling my little duckling legs off to safety from predators.
TLDR: EVE is not a game for everyone. Never has been, never will be. There will always be a relatively huge attrition of new players, inorder to retain a fraction. The best thing we and CCP can do, is to NEVER sugar-coat EVE as something it is not.
It must be made explicitly clear, at all times, with no reservations, how dangerous, difficult and different ("3D's") EVE is.
This is important cos: A) False expectations are a real attrition generator. If new players are expecting EVE to be something it is not, they will be disappointed. Furthermore they will be unprepared to deal with the realities of EVE, and will make bad decisions which lead to even further disappointment.
B) Constantly pounding the 3D's into any potential new players head, will help attract those that want that kind of gaming experience, and prepare those that are willing to give it a shot for what they are jumping into (thus helping them survive).
C) Consider the experience/mindset of thousands of people that have played WOW or other MMOs, or never played an MMO. They naturally do not know, cannot know, what EVE is like. They will expect EVE to match their uninformed expectations, and be disappointed when it does not.
This must be prevented at all cost. It must be made utterly, unequivocally clear to them what they are getting into.
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2564
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Posted - 2017.03.11 09:36:26 -
[102] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: You don't know what you're talking about. I do because I saw EvE growing when highsec was safe. I saw it declining when the new devs lost the original vision and started the push to move players into areas of the game those players didn't want to go.
Its somewhat like opening a coffee shop that serves tea and coffee then trying to force your customers to drink tea even though the majority of potential clients want coffee. Bad business choices lose customers. You cater to as many customers as possible ideally adjusting your business to suit them. Not the other way around. It's why you can buy lamb big macs in India and halal big macs in predominantly Muslim areas here in Australia.
CCP are not the brightest and neither are you.
I suggest you read Alexander The Greats Art Of Strategy by Partha Bose
HS was never "safe". In fact, back in the day CONCORD could be tanked. Suicide ganking was easier because of insurance. Then there was can flipping, war decs were cheaper. This notion that HS was "safe" is nothing short of a bald faced lie on your part. Yes, you are a liar. Hmmmmm There you go lying again. Black Pedro already took that one down. As Black Pedro pointed out that post points out that piracy in 0.6 systems is not supposed to be easy. And it isn't compared to 0.4 and lower. But a complete liar like you will gloss over this point. The bottom line is you are simply a liar. Please report me, I don't care. Pointing out a person is lying when they are in fact lying is not disrespectful nor an attack. In fact, it is your post that should be removed as it is an affront to any reasonable player, CCP, and CCP Oveur who is no longer around to defend himself. Liar. Black Pedro isn't the brightest. The ststement is unambiguous - highsec is supposed to be relatively safe and he even highlights High Sec and points out that that is its purpose.
Its currently easier to kill someone in highsec than low or null - get with the program.
You seem very emotional BTW I hope you're okay
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6137
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Posted - 2017.03.11 09:42:19 -
[103] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Black Pedro isn't the brightest. The ststement is unambiguous - highsec is supposed to be relatively safe and he even highlights High Sec and points out that that is its purpose.
Its currently easier to kill someone in highsec than low or null - get with the program.
You seem very emotional BTW I hope you're okay
Relatively safe you boob, and it is. It is safer than LS and NS.
It is only easier to kill someone because of the changes people like you advocate. You keep restricting HS PvP and players respond with HS professional suicide ganking groups. That you don't see this just underscores the type of idiot you are.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6138
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Posted - 2017.03.11 09:50:33 -
[104] - Quote
"Hi, I am Infinity Ziona and I think it is perfectly reasonable for a freighter pilot to put 5, 6, 7, 8 even 15 billion ISK into his freighter. To put on modules that reduce it's tank, not use a scout, to autopillock through 0.5 systems, and basically turn one's ship into a loot pinata and that CCP should protect such ships. That imposing on these players the downside of taking on so much risk is completely and totally ridiculous. Shooting a blatant idiot in HS is just totally unfair. I don't care that EVE is supposed to be harsh and unforgiving I want to turn the game into a space parody of My Little Pony. And of course subscriptions will increase to record highs....and I'm totally drunk and high on crystal meth."
There you go, the biggest shiptoaster in a nutshell.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
173
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Posted - 2017.03.11 09:52:25 -
[105] - Quote
It wasn't a failure cause I'm here.
The problem with subscription number is ccps fault. Make subscription cheaper and more people will play. It used to be 15$ a month, now it's 20 almost and to get a deal you have to drop 250 for a years worth. It's absurd.
I said it 8 years ago and I'll say it now. Offer a $5 a month subscription for 1 character on 1 account. I dont need 2 empty slots I'm paying 10-15 extra dollars for. They want to get rid of dozens of alts and encourage people to interact more limit accounts and make the accounts cheaper. Overhaul the missions and make some legitimate story based quests with cutscenes and such. They can't just keep raising the prices of subscriptions and plex. Alphas can make enough money to plex on their own. I have 2b from alpha but I refuse to pay 1.1b for a consumable everymonth.
Those things used to cost 300-400m back in 2009. It's absurd they're over 1b now really, I'd prefer not to do the Pi thing because of how time consuming it is but I guess i dont have a choice if I drop a plex on it I can finish my Pi skills and that should cut the cost down significantly.
But seriously $5 a month for one character and no alts and it would be much easier for people to justify staying in the game. $20 is simply too much. Look at how bad elder scrolls online failed. They legitimately thought they could charge people $60 and then a monthly fee on top of it and the entire gaming community laughed at them and the game bombed.
High subscription prices never work, if subscriptions fall the answer is to lower the price to entice more people to join not increase them and try to squeeze everything out of a decreasing base and drive more people away and deter new players from a steep cost. For a game based on an economy they sure boobooed that up. when demand increases, prices increase. When DEMAND DECREASES, PRICES DECREASE. was true 8 years ago still true now. Personally i dont mind low population but that's just me. |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
910
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Posted - 2017.03.11 10:19:28 -
[106] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:It used to be 15$ a month, now it's 20 almost and to get a deal you have to drop 250 for a years worth. It's absurd. https://secure.eveonline.com/AddGametime/ The price of a sub is the same as it was 14 years ago.
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:{PLEX} Those things used to cost 300-400m back in 2009. It's absurd they're over 1b now really CCP has little influence on the price. It's a player-run economy and thus a PLEX is worth whatever the majority of buyers are willing to pay for it. If nobody buys PLEX because it's too expensive, demand will drop while supply remains steady and the price will fall.
It's economics 101.
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:I'd prefer not to do the Pi thing because of how time consuming it is but I guess i dont have a choice if I drop a plex on it I can finish my Pi skills and that should cut the cost down significantly. I'm sorry, what? PI is time consuming? Did I miss the memo?
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Salvos Rhoska
2394
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Posted - 2017.03.11 10:25:02 -
[107] - Quote
1) Cheaper sub might help increase retention, but is very complicated and up to CCPs bottomline and customer retention analysis. Existing subbed players will be upset. It would also cascade into PLEX/Aurum(+item) value.
2) I dont believe suicide ganking is substantially causing player attrition, and a large part of those are the targets own fault. Having said that, there are some things about the mechanics/systems involved in suicide ganking I find problematic. But as long as suicide ganking remains at such a low rate of occurrence, Im willing to turn a blind eye to it as a "necessary evil", and as a culling of players breaking various golden rules, and a constant reminder that even in HS you are never truly safe.
PvE v PvP
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Gwenaelle de Ardevon
Ordum Eternam
5767
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Posted - 2017.03.11 10:35:20 -
[108] - Quote
Complaining about "Unsafe" HS is bullsh.. HS is SAFE enough!
No! NOT MORE SAFETY.
Not one of my chars (21) is Ganker, Pirat, Warrior or scammer. Why? Just because i hate pew pew, and have absolutely no fun in it. Scamming is also not my thing... And Yes, i saw Null Space, I saw LS. (Had few chars in an Null Sec Corp)
Moved back to HS 2 years ago. Now i have Fun by doing things i like to do.
I' m Miner, Hauler, Producer... I produce stuff, haul it and sell it. I'm not member of an greater Corp or Alliance. I love it to do my own thing, at the time "I" choose (simple as that!)... All my chars are in smaller corps, and they can be wardeced.
HS is TO SAFE.
«An hour sitting with a pretty girl on a park bench passes like a minute, but a minute sitting on a hot stove seems like an hour».
Albert Einstein - [11, S. 154]
More Quotes, Poetry & Prose on: https://gwenaelledeardevon.wordpress.com/
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2564
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Posted - 2017.03.11 10:47:22 -
[109] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Black Pedro isn't the brightest. The ststement is unambiguous - highsec is supposed to be relatively safe and he even highlights High Sec and points out that that is its purpose.
Its currently easier to kill someone in highsec than low or null - get with the program.
You seem very emotional BTW I hope you're okay
Relatively safe you boob, and it is. It is safer than LS and NS. It is only easier to kill someone because of the changes people like you advocate. You keep restricting HS PvP and players respond with HS professional suicide ganking groups. That you don't see this just underscores the type of idiot you are. So much emotion, so little sense.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2566
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Posted - 2017.03.11 10:59:14 -
[110] - Quote
Gwenaelle de Ardevon wrote:Complaining about "Unsafe" HS is bullsh.. HS is SAFE enough!
No! NOT MORE SAFETY.
Not one of my chars (21) is Ganker, Pirat, Warrior or scammer. Why? Just because i hate pew pew, and have absolutely no fun in it. Scamming is also not my thing... And Yes, i saw Null Space, I saw LS. (Had few chars in an Null Sec Corp)
Moved back to HS 2 years ago. Now i have Fun by doing things i like to do.
I' m Miner, Hauler, Producer... I produce stuff, haul it and sell it. I'm not member of an greater Corp or Alliance. I love it to do my own thing, at the time "I" choose (simple as that!)... All my chars are in smaller corps, and they can be wardeced.
HS is TO SAFE. Its not about what you think or feel. Its about economics. Growing a business is not about current customers its about potential customers.
If the ratio of PvE to PvP was as low as 2:1 (I believe its much higher) then targettng PvErs would double EvEs player base while targeting PvPrs would see no change. You would have to be idiots not to target PvErs to try to deny PvErs that do not want any PvP a safe place to play.
Unfortunately thats exactly what your moronic post suggests and what CCP fails to do.
PvPrs have null, low, wormholes and war decs in high. That's more than enough.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
103
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Posted - 2017.03.11 11:15:14 -
[111] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. F2P bum here who can't support subbing from an income generated in a poverty and corruption ridden country. If I feel great love towards a game and it's devs, I bring my moneybag friends in, and whoever else I can. That makes my opinion very subjective - but I was the target audience of the Alpha program, right?
The appeal of the old trial program for me: 0%
No matter how good opinion I had of EvE, jumping in a game with an innate timer that keeps ticking down before I have to pay up is felt like a trap. Just like how conservative parents imagine drug-dealers: "the first hit is free, we'll talk the price once you are hooked"
The appeal of the Alpha program on the first look: 20%
Hey I can play this infamous space epic for free forever! But wait, is this the kind of game that makes me face the choice of being the lowest of the low with an enormous grind-or-pay wall infront of every worthy content? It totally looks so when checking the Alpha limitations. We F2P bums jumped in these business models in numbers around 2010, but we learned to steer clear of them.
The appeal of the Alpha program after studying how EvE works: 80%
This game is like no other. The sky is the limit. I'm not sure how will I make it, but I jump in and figure it out. And it's working! Time to get those moneybag-friends in. "Wait, what do you mean by it's not your thing? I know you, and I know it is! What's the matter with the UI? Since when do you care about such? Ehh silly, in a year you will cry for wasting a year by not signing in. Mehh, your choice."
Too bad that it's a rare thing for F2P bums to do their homework. I still think the Alpha initiative is good, but it's late by 5 years. My kind had patience back than. The F2P market changed a lot since than. But it's still infinitely better than alternatives I can think of. From my perspective at least. And I'm convinced that the age and copmplexity of EvE is a much important deterrent factor for new players than the business model or whatever. Not that it can be helped.
I'm lazy to read the wrole thread, but I believe people more knowledgable than I are already picked your concrete suggestions to pieces, so let me not comment on those.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
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Salvos Rhoska
2394
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Posted - 2017.03.11 11:20:06 -
[112] - Quote
PvE and PvP in EVE are not mutually exclusive. They are contiguous.
All PvE in EVE is also PvP. See the link in my sig for a graphic representation.
Safety, however, does differentiate PvE from PvP. More safety means more PvE, less safety means more PvP.
This game requires both PvE for material/value generation and PvP for material/value destruction.
Safety is the mechanism that mediates that balance. As such, it is rational that all PvE must always include PvP.
PvE v PvP
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Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
175
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Posted - 2017.03.11 11:27:57 -
[113] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Matthias Ancaladron wrote:It used to be 15$ a month, now it's 20 almost and to get a deal you have to drop 250 for a years worth. It's absurd. https://secure.eveonline.com/AddGametime/ The price of a sub is the same as it was 14 years ago. Matthias Ancaladron wrote:{PLEX} Those things used to cost 300-400m back in 2009. It's absurd they're over 1b now really CCP has little influence on the price. It's a player-run economy and thus a PLEX is worth whatever the majority of buyers are willing to pay for it. If nobody buys PLEX because it's too expensive, demand will drop while supply remains steady and the price will fall. It's economics 101. Matthias Ancaladron wrote:I'd prefer not to do the Pi thing because of how time consuming it is but I guess i dont have a choice if I drop a plex on it I can finish my Pi skills and that should cut the cost down significantly. I'm sorry, what? PI is time consuming? Did I miss the memo? I must be thinking of plex then, my mistake. I looked at offer pages and I saw 19.95 and laughed. I must have looked at wrong item but i still think its too much unless they're offering the 1 for $5 too. 15 for three is fine. But i don't use the alt slots so it's not justifiable to me to pay 15 for 1.
Point 2. I know that's why I'm not buying one right now. Looks like they're trending upwards again. They dropped into the 900m range for a very short period when i came back but I didnt have the isk then. Looks like ill be waiting a while for the next down trend.
Point 3, yeah it is. It's a pain to set up new colonies and they require me to go out and refill them almost every other day and reset extractors for any real production unless I make alts on the extra 2 accounts and do pi on all three which is the current standard but I really dont want to check it more than once a week otherwise it's just a pain of clicking and moving stuff around between 5 or 6 planets. I have 2 in low sec right now full of stuff that i can't export until I get omega again for a long ticket response lol, only reason i tried it on the first place. I never finished setting up the other 3 to complete my system because of how laborious it was just trying to set them up and get all the little circles lined up perfectly. I can't imagine starting over in nullsec now and abandoning the other two to make 5 brand new ones. Way too much of a pain. |
Jasmine Deer
Perkone Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2017.03.11 12:03:03 -
[114] - Quote
Gwenaelle de Ardevon wrote:Complaining about "Unsafe" HS is bullsh.. HS is SAFE enough!
No! NOT MORE SAFETY.
Not one of my chars (21) is Ganker, Pirat, Warrior or scammer. Why? Just because i hate pew pew, and have absolutely no fun in it. Scamming is also not my thing... And Yes, i saw Null Space, I saw LS. (Had few chars in an Null Sec Corp)
Moved back to HS 2 years ago. Now i have Fun by doing things i like to do.
I' m Miner, Hauler, Producer... I produce stuff, haul it and sell it. I'm not member of an greater Corp or Alliance. I love it to do my own thing, at the time "I" choose (simple as that!)... All my chars are in smaller corps, and they can be wardeced.
HS is TO SAFE.
Is it curtailing your enjoyment of the game ? Do you hesitate to undock worried no one will shoot you ?
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Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
626
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Posted - 2017.03.11 12:19:50 -
[115] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:[quote=Lulu Lunette]Fozziesov is a disaster... Citadels are a disaster... Alphas are an unmitigated disaster. In the short span of 6 months they've managed to improve and then completely screw-up carriers, fighters and capital industrials. I can't wait for FanFest so the bloodbath can continue in earnest...
Man, you are playing a completely different game than I am. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
626
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Posted - 2017.03.11 12:35:31 -
[116] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its currently easier to kill someone in highsec than low or null - get with the program.
You must be daft. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
484
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Posted - 2017.03.11 12:57:35 -
[117] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:There you go lying again. Black Pedro already took that one down. As Black Pedro pointed out that post points out that piracy in 0.6 systems is not supposed to be easy. And it isn't compared to 0.4 and lower. But a complete liar like you will gloss over this point. The bottom line is you are simply a liar. Please report me, I don't care. Pointing out a person is lying when they are in fact lying is not disrespectful nor an attack. In fact, it is your post that should be removed as it is an affront to any reasonable player, CCP, and CCP Oveur who is no longer around to defend himself. Liar. With the way jump freighters and citadels work now, it doesn't take much to move a JF full of goods from null to market in near-perfect safety.
Trying to PvE outside of hisec without a capship blob a call away is a lot more interesting. I chased one 5/10 escalation two jumps into low with a dual-fit domi (PvP fit for the trip out, PvE fit in the station for the site, PvP fit for the trip back, all pretty cheap). Two different people tried to combat probe me out, and I wouldn't have been able to clear it if I wasn't able to be online while the locals weren't. I would have sold the site to the locals if downtime hadn't intervened. The next 5/10 I chased into low had nobody actually trying to kill me, and dropped a B-type medium repper and EANM, but there was this one guy AFK in a station with a green killboard to keep me from falling asleep while sentries killed everything.
A signature :o
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Aedaxus
Digital Zone Corp
0
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Posted - 2017.03.11 13:16:54 -
[118] - Quote
Hello,
F2P Alpha's did not fail, to the contrary; Me and my friends are returning players. We loved to play eve online but didn't always had the money to play because some of us are broke others are cheapskates.
How about some of the EVE Online problems :
(1) Impatient spoiled bratty kids who are escaping cleaning up their rooms (which I will now refer to as newbros) (2) Geriatric people who are abusive alcohol consuming while on meds (which I will refer to as veterans):
Newbros ask "How can I make isk the efficient way?". Yeah, just like in real life. Veterans say "Oh, easy just go to nullsec. You can make billions there and enter a reference from a ccp guy" Newbros train turrets 1 and mining 1, then take their Ibis into nullsec. Needless to say they did not solo the people defending their resions of influence. Now is that bad? No, the economy needs to run and today they just get back their stuff but end up craving to go to nullsec NOAW; imagine their frustratuion as skill after skill ticks away while they are trying all of the near endless ways to make money in EVE. However for every way to make money you'll find a 'quick way to get rich by the various contracts which mostly are horrible and make noobs loose ISK which they need to get forward in game. Hence the picture of learning EVE is a hughe cliff as people "DO NOT PROGRESS THE NORMAL WAY". And that's it.
The gap between start and endgame is large and people want to skip it instantly, or after a month. Well, it doesn't work that way and yes, people will say ccp is wrong by not giving players instantly what they want. But then again think about how you get welfare and free meals at soup kitchens and say "it's all free and instant." Well, EVE Online is a job! There, that scared most of them away. Fixed. Yes, total amount of players dropped. But ten again "These aren't the players you are looking for.". unless you like to mine. That is they mine ore, you mine their ships.
Enjoy the game because as long as ccp gets enough money they keep the server running and local chat will be 99% contract nonsens spam but at least not ISK sellers. And those two aren't really players, they log in yes, but despise the game and will be as toxic to ccp because they loose real life money due to ccp preventing them to harass players.
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Gwenaelle de Ardevon
Ordum Eternam
5770
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Posted - 2017.03.11 13:37:48 -
[119] - Quote
Jasmine Deer wrote:Gwenaelle de Ardevon wrote:Complaining about "Unsafe" HS is bullsh.. HS is SAFE enough!
No! NOT MORE SAFETY.
Not one of my chars (21) is Ganker, Pirat, Warrior or scammer. Why? Just because i hate pew pew, and have absolutely no fun in it. Scamming is also not my thing... And Yes, i saw Null Space, I saw LS. (Had few chars in an Null Sec Corp)
Moved back to HS 2 years ago. Now i have Fun by doing things i like to do.
I' m Miner, Hauler, Producer... I produce stuff, haul it and sell it. I'm not member of an greater Corp or Alliance. I love it to do my own thing, at the time "I" choose (simple as that!)... All my chars are in smaller corps, and they can be wardeced.
HS is TO SAFE. Is it curtailing your enjoyment of the game ? Do you hesitate to undock worried no one will shoot you ?
Why should i stay docked in station? If no one shot to me ... it's ok, but If somes want to do it... so what? What's the problem?
If needed i can run... I like it to play Cat & Mouse.
«An hour sitting with a pretty girl on a park bench passes like a minute, but a minute sitting on a hot stove seems like an hour».
Albert Einstein - [11, S. 154]
More Quotes, Poetry & Prose on: https://gwenaelledeardevon.wordpress.com/
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Salvos Rhoska
2395
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Posted - 2017.03.11 14:00:46 -
[120] - Quote
If I understood correctly, I agree NS is a suitable place for new players only under specific circumstances: -The corp protects them AND supports their logistics needs. -If they run exploration, mining or tag along as tacklers in fleets. -The local NS combat PvE content in ratting/anomalies/combat sigs is WAY over their head.
I too agree most new players should start and stay in HS till they have SP, experience/knowledge and isk enough to move to other sectors.
PvE v PvP
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lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
80
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Posted - 2017.03.11 15:51:02 -
[121] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
i think that i will stop here... or i'll try to convince you guys for all the rest of the thread xD dropping caps... so???? - batphone is a weapon too - allies is another weapon (even only subcaps) - training for caps is another way - adopting a doctrine that gives the middle finger to caps is another way -etc etc etc i'll stop here i promise
But all that takes YEARS to get to. or even compete against, it does. Most alliances will not dare go near those alliances. cmon you know this. tell me what alliance in eve has gone head on to take out PL or NC. for example? not one. Why because they cant. even long term experienced ones. It took TRILLIONS of ISK and lots and lots of the big pure pvp alliances to band together to remove Goonswarm from Deklein, and that was just to get them out of the region.. They now still own a big region and still take over high sec and still control markets and still have tons of moons yada yada yada... You sir are talking complete and utter BS and havent got a clue. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
519
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Posted - 2017.03.11 15:54:03 -
[122] - Quote
the alpha and f2p plan failed
it should be just free to play all the way and for increased skill training sub..
also gankers should be banned permanently for griefing of any kind and afk cloaking.
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Salvos Rhoska
2395
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Posted - 2017.03.11 15:56:40 -
[123] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:the alpha and f2p plan failed
it should be just free to play all the way and for increased skill training sub..
also gankers should be banned permanently for griefing of any kind and afk cloaking.
Troll post.
Disregard and carry on.
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Problem Addict
1
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Posted - 2017.03.11 16:06:57 -
[124] - Quote
The availability of information makes the game less enjoyable.
Employment history, API's, Killboards.
It's so heavily engrained into the game's culture that using it as a reason to express displeasure is tech 2 blaster ammo. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
499
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 16:07:40 -
[125] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
i think that i will stop here... or i'll try to convince you guys for all the rest of the thread xD dropping caps... so???? - batphone is a weapon too - allies is another weapon (even only subcaps) - training for caps is another way - adopting a doctrine that gives the middle finger to caps is another way -etc etc etc i'll stop here i promise But all that takes YEARS to get to. or even compete against, it does. Most alliances will not dare go near those alliances. cmon you know this. tell me what alliance in eve has gone head on to take out PL or NC. for example? not one. Why because they cant. even long term experienced ones. It took TRILLIONS of ISK and lots and lots of the big pure pvp alliances to band together to remove Goonswarm from Deklein, and that was just to get them out of the region.. They now still own a big region and still take over high sec and still control markets and still have tons of moons yada yada yada... You sir are talking complete and utter BS and havent got a clue.
lel i mean... even romans didn't think they could walk on the moon the only limit out there is the one you place on yourself kiddo |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
5668
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 16:43:29 -
[126] - Quote
There's been some good points, some stupid points and more in this thread.
Just some random points....
... PCU has been consistently estimated to be between 8 and 12% of the total subscriber count. When your business are people in your server, you want more people, not less. Having 35% less epople on the server should be taken seriously. ... indirect sources also point at less people playing the game, specially language channels which provide a cross section of all EVE demographics ... forcing people out of highsec is stupid. They will leave the game and not just highsec. ... there's a serious chance that the new NPE is driving players away at a faster rate than before. ... there is no simple one-size-fits-all solution to EVE's decadence, but certainly repeating the past according to the old farts is not going to help ... CCP is just making it worse because they didn't knew well enough who pays the game back when they comitted to the current development plan, which allots insufficient resources to many people and that people leaves the game faster than the development effort attracts new players ... even worst, the current plan was supposed to require just 3 years to implment, and yet it's on its way to be 7 years long at best (if CCP/EVE last that long). ... as opposed to most of its history, EVE Online faces competition from other space themed MMO games. At least one of those games is outperforming EVE on some accounts, like financially, graphically and being multiplatform, and haves something ahead which EVE hasn't had in years: a potential to expand into a large and unused niche.
My intuition tells me that later this year the ownership of CCP will change hands, probably via the entry of new majoritary stakeholder(s) while Hilmar and other old farts bail out. The company is 20 years old, its VR department looks like a greater fool could buy it before the VR fad vanishes and certainly CCP have made their best to put some lipstick on the EVE pig.
And then my friends things will get really interesting, as in "may you live in interesting times"... |
Salvos Rhoska
2396
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:03:03 -
[127] - Quote
Problem Addict wrote:The availability of information makes the game less enjoyable.
Employment history, API's, Killboards.. I agree. Free info/intel is a cancer in EVE.
PvE v PvP
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
519
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:14:07 -
[128] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
i think that i will stop here... or i'll try to convince you guys for all the rest of the thread xD dropping caps... so???? - batphone is a weapon too - allies is another weapon (even only subcaps) - training for caps is another way - adopting a doctrine that gives the middle finger to caps is another way -etc etc etc i'll stop here i promise But all that takes YEARS to get to. or even compete against, it does. Most alliances will not dare go near those alliances. cmon you know this. tell me what alliance in eve has gone head on to take out PL or NC. for example? not one. Why because they cant. even long term experienced ones. It took TRILLIONS of ISK and lots and lots of the big pure pvp alliances to band together to remove Goonswarm from Deklein, and that was just to get them out of the region.. They now still own a big region and still take over high sec and still control markets and still have tons of moons yada yada yada... You sir are talking complete and utter BS and havent got a clue.
thats just the root problem of it all.. which ccp fails to inform these alpha's they'll never ever beat these guys just cause of time invested.. they wont even catch up. its almost as if ccp is trying to sell a bad vacation trip into hell. |
Salvos Rhoska
2396
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:24:24 -
[129] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:thats just the root problem of it all.. which ccp fails to inform these alpha's they'll never beat these guys just cause of time invested.. they wont even catch up. its almost as if ccp is trying to sell a bad vacation trip into hell.
Those guys have spent years getting there. They earned their place.
Dont worry about them, or what they do. They have problems to deal with that are far beyond your concern.
Instead, focus on your own goals in EVE. What they have, is not a minus to you.
They cannot, and most likely will not, stand in your way. They understand the sandbox.
PvE v PvP
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Teros Hakomairos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:42:28 -
[130] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec..
Do you want to loose all PVE players?
The opposite has to be done : move lvl 5 to high and let Concord react everywhere the same second someone is attacked and give concord a 20k+ alpha so PVE without interfere of the strange guys with strange hobbies(PVP) will accur....
THAT'S the solution not make PVE even MORE difficult... |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6144
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Posted - 2017.03.11 17:43:31 -
[131] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Matthias Ancaladron wrote:It used to be 15$ a month, now it's 20 almost and to get a deal you have to drop 250 for a years worth. It's absurd. https://secure.eveonline.com/AddGametime/ The price of a sub is the same as it was 14 years ago. Matthias Ancaladron wrote:{PLEX} Those things used to cost 300-400m back in 2009. It's absurd they're over 1b now really CCP has little influence on the price. It's a player-run economy and thus a PLEX is worth whatever the majority of buyers are willing to pay for it. If nobody buys PLEX because it's too expensive, demand will drop while supply remains steady and the price will fall. It's economics 101. Matthias Ancaladron wrote:I'd prefer not to do the Pi thing because of how time consuming it is but I guess i dont have a choice if I drop a plex on it I can finish my Pi skills and that should cut the cost down significantly. I'm sorry, what? PI is time consuming? Did I miss the memo?
No kidding an in that time we have seen inflation, so the price of a sub has gone down relatively speaking. Further if you pay for a full year in advance it is only $10.95.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6144
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Posted - 2017.03.11 17:46:03 -
[132] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Gwenaelle de Ardevon wrote:Complaining about "Unsafe" HS is bullsh.. HS is SAFE enough!
No! NOT MORE SAFETY.
Not one of my chars (21) is Ganker, Pirat, Warrior or scammer. Why? Just because i hate pew pew, and have absolutely no fun in it. Scamming is also not my thing... And Yes, i saw Null Space, I saw LS. (Had few chars in an Null Sec Corp)
Moved back to HS 2 years ago. Now i have Fun by doing things i like to do.
I' m Miner, Hauler, Producer... I produce stuff, haul it and sell it. I'm not member of an greater Corp or Alliance. I love it to do my own thing, at the time "I" choose (simple as that!)... All my chars are in smaller corps, and they can be wardeced.
HS is TO SAFE. Its not about what you think or feel. Its about economics. Growing a business is not about current customers its about potential customers. If the ratio of PvE to PvP was as low as 2:1 (I believe its much higher) then targettng PvErs would double EvEs player base while targeting PvPrs would see no change. You would have to be idiots not to target PvErs to try to deny PvErs that do not want any PvP a safe place to play. Unfortunately thats exactly what your moronic post suggests and what CCP fails to do. PvPrs have null, low, wormholes and war decs in high. That's more than enough.
Yes, making HS safer and more boring is a great way to increase subs.
And current customers are just as important as new customers. The current customers are paying just like a new one.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teros Hakomairos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:48:44 -
[133] - Quote
Player driven economy....
Nice theory dogma.....
It fails the moment you realize CCP is able to spawn EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE at ANY price they want in masses.....
If they want THEY control the price of every producht ingame....that's the bottom line...
They just fear the consequences and the hard work it takes to control the market.... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6144
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:49:50 -
[134] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PvE and PvP in EVE are not mutually exclusive. They are contiguous.
All PvE in EVE is also PvP. See the link in my sig for a graphic representation.
Safety, however, does differentiate PvE from PvP. More safety means more PvE, less safety means more PvP.
This game requires both PvE for material/value generation and PvP for material/value destruction.
Safety is the mechanism that mediates that balance. As such, it is rational that all PvE must always include PvP.
Agreed except for missions...mostly. Any number of players can use the same agent, hence agents are kind of like public goods. So there is really no competition for the benefits of an agent.
There can be some PvP related to missions such as ganking bling fit mission ships or grabbing the mission specific loot item, but other than that they are largely PvP free.
All other "PvE" activities carry with them varying degrees of competition, and thus I consider them PvP.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
2398
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:52:27 -
[135] - Quote
Teros Hakomairos wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec..
Do you want to loose all PVE players?..
If I may interject, his point is PvE high-end profits should move from HS to LS.
This incurs no loss of PvE players, it just relocates value into a system with commensurate risk for that profit.
Currently HS L4mission runners, Incursion fleets and ice belt farmers, have very little risk.
PvE v PvP
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6144
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:53:27 -
[136] - Quote
Jasmine Deer wrote:Gwenaelle de Ardevon wrote:Complaining about "Unsafe" HS is bullsh.. HS is SAFE enough!
No! NOT MORE SAFETY.
Not one of my chars (21) is Ganker, Pirat, Warrior or scammer. Why? Just because i hate pew pew, and have absolutely no fun in it. Scamming is also not my thing... And Yes, i saw Null Space, I saw LS. (Had few chars in an Null Sec Corp)
Moved back to HS 2 years ago. Now i have Fun by doing things i like to do.
I' m Miner, Hauler, Producer... I produce stuff, haul it and sell it. I'm not member of an greater Corp or Alliance. I love it to do my own thing, at the time "I" choose (simple as that!)... All my chars are in smaller corps, and they can be wardeced.
HS is TO SAFE. Is it curtailing your enjoyment of the game ? Do you hesitate to undock worried no one will shoot you ?
Suppose it is not....that does not necessarily invalidate the point being made. Jonah Gravenstein has made the point that he is not here for pew pew, but he does find avoiding people who do want to shoot him fun and challenging. PvP in HS does not have to a choice between 0 or 11. There is a range and perhaps it is too low.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6144
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:54:15 -
[137] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its currently easier to kill someone in highsec than low or null - get with the program.
You must be daft.
Let me fix that, Infinity Ziona is daft.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teros Hakomairos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:54:18 -
[138] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Gwenaelle de Ardevon wrote:Complaining about "Unsafe" HS is bullsh.. HS is SAFE enough!
No! NOT MORE SAFETY.
Not one of my chars (21) is Ganker, Pirat, Warrior or scammer. Why? Just because i hate pew pew, and have absolutely no fun in it. Scamming is also not my thing... And Yes, i saw Null Space, I saw LS. (Had few chars in an Null Sec Corp)
Moved back to HS 2 years ago. Now i have Fun by doing things i like to do.
I' m Miner, Hauler, Producer... I produce stuff, haul it and sell it. I'm not member of an greater Corp or Alliance. I love it to do my own thing, at the time "I" choose (simple as that!)... All my chars are in smaller corps, and they can be wardeced.
HS is TO SAFE. Its not about what you think or feel. Its about economics. Growing a business is not about current customers its about potential customers. If the ratio of PvE to PvP was as low as 2:1 (I believe its much higher) then targettng PvErs would double EvEs player base while targeting PvPrs would see no change. You would have to be idiots not to target PvErs to try to deny PvErs that do not want any PvP a safe place to play. Unfortunately thats exactly what your moronic post suggests and what CCP fails to do. PvPrs have null, low, wormholes and war decs in high. That's more than enough. Yes, making HS safer and more boring is a great way to increase subs. And current customers are just as important as new customers. The current customers are paying just like a new one.
Your post is flawed because you insist that NEW players WANT PVP...... And prefer to "loose it all in a single blow" to "have fun"....
That maybe WAS the case lets say 5 years ago.... But todays "nanny games" that you don't loose anything show that the market has changed to these type of games......
Like it or not...it' remains fact.... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6144
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 17:59:15 -
[139] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
today you cant even get a sub-cap decent fight without someone, there's always someone escalating and pushing the iwin at caps button. they do this each and every time, matter of fact most of those guys refuse to fight on normal levels unless they outnumber the opposing foe by 75 or more!.
i think that i will stop here... or i'll try to convince you guys for all the rest of the thread xD dropping caps... so???? - batphone is a weapon too - allies is another weapon (even only subcaps) - training for caps is another way - adopting a doctrine that gives the middle finger to caps is another way -etc etc etc i'll stop here i promise But all that takes YEARS to get to. or even compete against, it does. Most alliances will not dare go near those alliances. cmon you know this. tell me what alliance in eve has gone head on to take out PL or NC. for example? not one. Why because they cant. even long term experienced ones. It took TRILLIONS of ISK and lots and lots of the big pure pvp alliances to band together to remove Goonswarm from Deklein, and that was just to get them out of the region.. They now still own a big region and still take over high sec and still control markets and still have tons of moons yada yada yada... You sir are talking complete and utter BS and havent got a clue.
IT Alliance and their allies kicked PL and Sons of Tangra out of Fountain.
Goons were also kicked out of Delve after a wallet screw up by alliance leadership.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
2399
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 18:01:19 -
[140] - Quote
Teros Hakomairos wrote:That maybe WAS the case lets say 5 years ago.... But todays "nanny games" that don't let you loose anything show that the market has changed to these type of games......
Like it or not...it' remains fact.... No matter how many "nanny games" there are, there is only one EVE.
PvE v PvP
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Teros Hakomairos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 18:07:04 -
[141] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teros Hakomairos wrote:That maybe WAS the case lets say 5 years ago.... But todays "nanny games" that don't let you loose anything show that the market has changed to these type of games......
Like it or not...it' remains fact.... No matter how many "nanny games" there are, there is only one EVE.
Yes and it has to survive by adjusting to the reality not staring at the past......
Beeing wiped out because of doing nothing would be sad...... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6146
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 18:33:41 -
[142] - Quote
Teros Hakomairos wrote:Player driven economy....
Nice theory dogma.....
It fails the moment you realize CCP is able to spawn EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE at ANY price they want in masses.....
But they don't. Yes, CCP could wreck the economy, but they haven't.
Quote:If they want THEY control the price of every producht ingame....that's the bottom line...
They just fear the consequences and the hard work it takes to control the market....
That is not controlling the market, that is destroying it. Price controls have rarely worked, and when they do work it is usually because some other aspect of trying to control the market has failed.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6147
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 18:37:48 -
[143] - Quote
Teros Hakomairos wrote:
Your post is flawed because you insist that NEW players WANT PVP...... And prefer to "loose it all in a single blow" to "have fun"....
That maybe WAS the case lets say 5 years ago.... But todays "nanny games" that don't let you loose anything show that the market has changed to these type of games......
Like it or not...it' remains fact....
Yup, at least to varying degrees. If you want to play EVE you are sending a pretty clear indicator: I want PvP. That meas you'll be competing against other players. And this competition can be via the market--e.g. a market trader. As a miner--you are trying to acquire resources vs. letting them go to other players (go to a HS ice belt to see this). Or in the more classic sense of getting in a ship and shooting others in LS or NS. Unless you are here to simply run missions while in an NPC corp in HS, most players are going to be competing with other players and thus engaged in PvP.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6147
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 18:41:35 -
[144] - Quote
Teros Hakomairos wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teros Hakomairos wrote:That maybe WAS the case lets say 5 years ago.... But todays "nanny games" that don't let you loose anything show that the market has changed to these type of games......
Like it or not...it' remains fact.... No matter how many "nanny games" there are, there is only one EVE. Yes and it has to survive by adjusting to the reality not staring at the past...... Beeing wiped out because of doing nothing would be sad......
And look the game has become more safe. People like you have clamored for increased safety...and gotten it. And PCU has been declining.
And people like you keep whining for more and more changes to make the game safe. "Just one more nerf...."
People like you wanted war decs to become more expensive. Well you got that, and yet people like you still complain about war decs.
People like you complained about suicide gankers getting insurance payouts for the ships CONCORD blew up. CCP changed that and people still suicide gank. And people like you come back to the forums and whine yet again.
You speak of adaptation, but you fail to realize that the players too adapt and in ways you do not foresee and then you come back asking for more nerfs....and PCU continues to decline.
You don't even pause to consider: maybe the nerfs are the cause of the PCU decline.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6148
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 18:50:16 -
[145] - Quote
Teros Hakomairos wrote: And prefer to "loose it all in a single blow" to "have fun"....
Focusing on just this. If this happens, you are doing it wrong, very, very wrong. The first rule of EVE is never fly what you can't afford to lose. This includes not just the ship and modules, but also the cargo.
So, suppose a player has a billion ISK. The above rule would indicate that this player should not buy and fit a ship where the total cost is 1 billion ISK. That is foolish and imprudent. Buy and fit a 100 or 200 million ISK ship. That way you can afford to lose 10/5 of them before you run out of ISK.
So yes, a freighter pilot putting all of his in game "wealth" in his charon and undocking is take a HUGE risk. Especially if the cargo value of that wealth is over 1 billion ISK. The answer is for the player to NOT do that. Not destroy the very core aspect of the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
500
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 18:54:34 -
[146] - Quote
i mean! every time i think at the citadels safe mechanic where, after the citadel blow up, everything inside is delivered somewhere else, without being destroyed
PLS LMAO carebears SMH carebears everywhere |
Hakawai
State War Academy Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 19:31:36 -
[147] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:And look the game has become more safe. People like you have clamored for increased safety...and gotten it. And PCU has been declining.
And people like you keep whining for more and more changes to make the game safe. "Just one more nerf...."
People like you wanted war decs to become more expensive. Well you got that, and yet people like you still complain about war decs.
People like you complained about suicide gankers getting insurance payouts for the ships CONCORD blew up. CCP changed that and people still suicide gank. And people like you come back to the forums and whine yet again.
You speak of adaptation, but you fail to realize that the players too adapt and in ways you do not foresee and then you come back asking for more nerfs....and PCU continues to decline.
You don't even pause to consider: maybe the nerfs are the cause of the PCU decline. There's no evidence at all in your post to support either hypothesis ("nerfs good" vs "nerfs bad").
And as several other people have pointed out, it's highly unlikely any single minor matter like wardecs or suicide ganking is a major factor affecting in the number of subscriptions or active players.
Most new players' decisions to stay or leave will be based on their overall impressions of the game as they've experienced it. They'll hope for interesting activities, nice people to play with, limited "dead time", etc. And they will consider their necessarily limited impressions of the parts of the game they haven't directly experienced. Do they expect EVE to be interesting enough in the medium- and long-term to justify continued play?
Pretending it comes down to one or two minor factors is equivalent to suggesting EVE is a simple game ("Farmville in Space" perhaps?). But hardly anyone who finds their way to EVE is so naive. It's well known to be a complex PVP game with a high learning curve. And they enter the game knowing that destroyed ships are lost forever. But there's an important question any sensible person asks when starting any new and time-consuming activity: will it be worth the time it takes?
Wardecs deserve the focus they get not because they dominate the decision process, but because they reinforce the impression (not unjustified) that the game is strongly biased in favor of experienced, high ISK-income, well-connected, high SP players. Wardecs certainly look like CCP deliberately designed them to make it easy for experienced players in combat-effective Corps to make highsec hostile to rookies, before they've had a chance to learn the basics.
It's not a good message for CCP or experienced players to be delivering to rookies. |
Senneka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 19:33:36 -
[148] - Quote
Problem Addict wrote:The availability of information makes the game less enjoyable.
Employment history, API's, Killboards.
I agree to this 100%. All that available info takes away from the mystery, and the unknown is what makes things more interesting. :remove local:
OT, not sure if alpha was a flop or not. For me the real flop is the "maintenance mode" CCP seems to be in for quite some time now.
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Austin Blythe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 19:48:34 -
[149] - Quote
EVE's had its heyday. There will be no significant growth. The PCU has already been as good as it can get. The game can't be changed significantly - it'll always be a submarine simulator in space with spreadsheets, the interior of your ship and the station beyond your captain's quarters forever a mystery. It's a beautiful antique, you just have to like it for what it is. |
Cherry Sulphate
ojingo
35
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 20:29:29 -
[150] - Quote
played eve on and off for 11 years or so. so much hand-wringing these days. buy some moisturiser, kids. |
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
502
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 20:36:32 -
[151] - Quote
Cherry Sulphate wrote:played eve on and off for 11 years or so. so much hand-wringing these days. buy some moisturiser, kids.
i will! thanks mom |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6149
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 20:37:03 -
[152] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:
Pretending it comes down to one or two minor factors is equivalent to suggesting EVE is a simple game ("Farmville in Space" perhaps?).
Actually, my contention is that you and those like you want to turn the game into farmville in space. Which will not be good.
Further, you and those like you grossly misunderstand things like risk and game mechanics. You assume the latter is what causes the former, and completely remove the player element. All this nonsense about "fun vampires".
Here is what is wrong with your arguments: You are basically arguing that coming here and playing the game "wrong" should be fun. It is like saying playing monopoly as if it were checkers should be fun. If you come to this game and play in an imprudent and foolish manner you are probably not going to have much fun. And trying to change the game for that tiny fraction of players is just dumb.
Edit: And this claim about rookies being the primary target of wardecs is just errant nonsense. The players in war dec corps will go after any target that shows up and they think they can take. Will they blow up a rookie? Probably, are they out hunting rookies specifically or are wardecs a bane to rookies? There is no evidence of that. In fact, killing rookies actually enhances retention of those rookie players. For that there is actual evidence and it has been presented to you a number of times.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Hakawai
State War Academy Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 20:59:25 -
[153] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Hakawai wrote:
Pretending it comes down to one or two minor factors is equivalent to suggesting EVE is a simple game ("Farmville in Space" perhaps?).
Actually, my contention is that you and those like you want to turn the game into farmville in space. Which will not be good. Further, you and those like you grossly misunderstand things like risk and game mechanics. You assume the latter is what causes the former, and completely remove the player element. All this nonsense about "fun vampires". [...] I'm used to people here making stuff up to support crazy claims (like your earlier post I replied to), but this is unusual ... you're making stuff up to demonstrate that you have no idea what you're trying to say.
For next time, here's a more efficient solution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum
|
Sitting Bull Lakota
SBL Co
263
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 21:04:15 -
[154] - Quote
Austin Blythe wrote:EVE's had its heyday. There will be no significant growth. The PCU has already been as good as it can get. The game can't be changed significantly... But it has changed significantly. It's not just coincidence that the average population has decreased over the past decade as the game has gotten safer. Here's some examples of CCP approved safety measures that have been added since I've started:- Ore Holds
- Mining Barge hp buffs
- Native hull resists
- Orca= Best highsec solo miner
- Jump ships can't project
- Greatly increased wardec costs
- Removal of locator agents via removal of watch list
- The whole crimewatch and safety settings system
The list just keeps going. EvE players, clearly, don't want safety. They've been leaving and new players aren't coming in to replace them. It's not because the current generation coming into online games has too short of an attention span to get into it. EvE is marketed as the cold, dark dystopian game where choices matter and you're never safe once you undock. That has become more false over the last 10 years. Compared to 2007 EvE, this game is bland and safe.
Let's try something different!- Remove native hull resists
- Bring back the "cancer" of capital projection
- Ditch entosis links and let raw numbers rule sov again
- Remove specialized cargo holds
- Lock everyones safety to at least yellow, or remove the safety system
- Change wardec costs a flat 20m/week fee
- Finally, make all NPC corps, including Starters, vulnerable to wardecs
Reversing "The Safening" will steer the game back towards its ideals. I firmly believe that a more dangerous EvE will see an increase in active players. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6149
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 00:19:42 -
[155] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Hakawai wrote:
Pretending it comes down to one or two minor factors is equivalent to suggesting EVE is a simple game ("Farmville in Space" perhaps?).
Actually, my contention is that you and those like you want to turn the game into farmville in space. Which will not be good. Further, you and those like you grossly misunderstand things like risk and game mechanics. You assume the latter is what causes the former, and completely remove the player element. All this nonsense about "fun vampires". [...] I'm used to people here making stuff up to support crazy claims (like your earlier post I replied to), but this is unusual ... you're making stuff up to demonstrate that you have no idea what you're trying to say. For next time, here's a more efficient solution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum
I am making up nothing, when it comes to risk in game you are an ignoramus.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Alexander Maxim
The Panopticon
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 02:22:09 -
[156] - Quote
Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts. |
Tanuki Kittybeta
Ripperoni in Pepperoni Trigger Warnings
121
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 02:29:16 -
[157] - Quote
dunno if this has been said already but the spike in numbers were most likely from players that were interested in a niche game but their mom got scared and was sent to live with their aunty and uncle in bel air. |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1053
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 02:36:36 -
[158] - Quote
Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts.
I doubt it - most people get attached to what they have built ingame and planning to build - many many people would leave and never come back - it is something CCP seems to consistently try to ignore with changes. I don't think new player uptake or returnees, etc. would offset the difference and you'd then lose many people who are the ones into this kind of game who help to keep it alive.
The biggest issue I've had when trying to get people I know IRL into the game is (a) them getting ganked not once but multiple times before they've even learnt to walk in the game let alone run (b) lack of "raid" like content which seems to be the in thing at the moment.
On a related note when alphas went live I along with some other veteran players who like myself had been away from the game for a long time found our ships had been moved back to one of the starter stations and we spent quite a bit of time in local chat trying to help newer players but one thing that really stuck out and was commented on by a few was the lack of ways to really engage with a new player in the game (other than ganking them) i.e. there was no easy way to fleet up and start a mission arc or something that offered something to both the new player and a way for the veteran player to get involved.
I know eve is dying is banded around a lot but if current trends progress based on what I've seen with other games player numbers will drop to a critical point in around 2.5-3 years and once it drops to that level the drop in numbers will escalate based on increasingly less ingame activity. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6008
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 02:59:03 -
[159] - Quote
Alexander Maxim wrote:Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1561
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 03:08:36 -
[160] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:I'm used to people here making stuff up to support crazy claims ... I guess at least making stuff up to support a crazy claim is a step up from others, who just make crazy claims without any supporting material whatsoever.
Cough...Hakawai posts...cough
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2575
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 03:40:27 -
[161] - Quote
What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Some people you just can't reach. As I have clearly demonstrated all this has happened before and if CCP wants to wring out the last bit of life from EvE it must happen again.
Highsec must be made relatively safe again so that carebears can enjoy their game and pay their sub's because carebears are the monetary heart of MMOs.
If you lack the skill / imagination to engage in PvP in the thousands of null / low and wormhole space or can't hack the complexity of fighting in high through war decs go play premades in WoW.
I have been here since 2003, have pirated, missioned, war decced, solo camped null alliances, ninja run combat sites, suicide ganked, joined two null alliances, created my own high sec war alliance, mine, extorted wh corps, multi-boxed SB and few other things.
Im neither a carebear, griefer, null or high or WH fanboi. One thing I am is sure that we need carebears to fund this game and that means having a Relatively Safe Place they can play without fuckheads causing them to quit and stop paying sub.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6149
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 04:49:28 -
[162] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Some people you just can't reach. As I have clearly demonstrated all this has happened before and if CCP wants to wring out the last bit of life from EvE it must happen again.
Highsec must be made relatively safe again so that carebears can enjoy their game and pay their sub's because carebears are the monetary heart of MMOs.
If you lack the skill / imagination to engage in PvP in the thousands of null / low and wormhole space or can't hack the complexity of fighting in high through war decs go play premades in WoW.
I have been here since 2003, have pirated, missioned, war decced, solo camped null alliances, ninja run combat sites, suicide ganked, joined two null alliances, created my own high sec war alliance, mine, extorted wh corps, multi-boxed SB and few other things.
Im neither a carebear, griefer, null or high or WH fanboi. One thing I am is sure that we need carebears to fund this game and that means having a Relatively Safe Place they can play without fuckheads causing them to quit and stop paying sub.
HS is relatively safe. It is not safe if you want to be a complete idiot.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1562
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 05:07:33 -
[163] - Quote
'relatively' is a subjective term.
What one person sees as safe, another sees as dangerous, based on the reference they use to measure 'relative' against.
Thus we have the eternal divide between pvpers that compare safety across systems in the game; and Carebears that compare in game to RL and see devils everywhere they look.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2575
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 07:05:42 -
[164] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Some people you just can't reach. As I have clearly demonstrated all this has happened before and if CCP wants to wring out the last bit of life from EvE it must happen again.
Highsec must be made relatively safe again so that carebears can enjoy their game and pay their sub's because carebears are the monetary heart of MMOs.
If you lack the skill / imagination to engage in PvP in the thousands of null / low and wormhole space or can't hack the complexity of fighting in high through war decs go play premades in WoW.
I have been here since 2003, have pirated, missioned, war decced, solo camped null alliances, ninja run combat sites, suicide ganked, joined two null alliances, created my own high sec war alliance, mine, extorted wh corps, multi-boxed SB and few other things.
Im neither a carebear, griefer, null or high or WH fanboi. One thing I am is sure that we need carebears to fund this game and that means having a Relatively Safe Place they can play without fuckheads causing them to quit and stop paying sub.
HS is relatively safe. It is not safe if you want to be a complete idiot. That's incorrect. Oveur said it should be difficult to pirate in high sec. It is not. Its so easy people destroy empty freighters when they're bored. Compared to the past piracy in highsec is at its easiest. There are people multiboxing freighter kills. Ganking is cheap, easy and profitable.
You can blow smoke and obfuscate but you're only fooling yourself.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6150
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 07:13:05 -
[165] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:'relatively' is a subjective term.
What one person sees as safe, another sees as dangerous, based on the reference they use to measure 'relative' against.
Thus we have the eternal divide between pvpers that compare safety across systems in the game; and Carebears that compare in game to RL and see devils everywhere they look.
That is true. Relative to perfect security/safety HS is not safe, in fact it is quite dangerous.
But the fact remains, when it comes to HS, the most dangerous thing a player can do is put too much cargo value into one's freighter. Mining in a procuror or skiff is totally safe. You can go AFK for hours in either ship so long as your tank is turned on.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6150
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 07:22:07 -
[166] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: That's incorrect. Oveur said it should be difficult to pirate in high sec. It is not. Its so easy people destroy empty freighters when they're bored. Compared to the past piracy in highsec is at its easiest. There are people multiboxing freighter kills. Ganking is cheap, easy and profitable.
You can blow smoke and obfuscate but you're only fooling yourself.
Yes it is. Now to pirate in HS you need an organization like Miniluv, CODE. or the like. A goddamn alliance including SRP, comms, logistics, FCs, and so forth.
This claim it is "easy" is a lie. A blatant bald faced lie.
The problem here is what people see vs. what they don't see. They see 50 catalysts burning down a freighter and conclude, "Oh that is easy."
Sure. Once you have done the logistics, got the fleet up and with people in it. Got the target bumped...and that presumes you have the target identified and followed from it's point of origin.
All this stuff had to happen before the suicide gank.
You are horrible. You are horrible because you only see what is right in front of you. You cannot see what is in front of you and extrapolate back to that which is unseen like in the article by Frederic Bastiat. Of course, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. That you just can't see it. The alternative is you do see it and because of your agenda pretend like you don't see it and deliberately spew nonsense and lies.
There is also the possibility that this point is far too subtle for you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Keno Skir
1366
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 07:38:56 -
[167] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Compared to the past piracy in highsec is at its easiest..
Nope sorry mate i think that's incorrect. Just because ganking is in the limelight right now doesn't mean by any stretch hisec is more dangerous now than in the past. Can mechanics were changed to support new players and limit piracy, neutral logistics was nerfed with suspect timers, everyone got a nice green safety button to prevent them getting into fights and all the publicity surrounding ganking in recent days means anyone who still gets ganked is either extremely unlucky or acting foolishly. Piracy is catagorically harder in hisec now than it used to be and less common. It is in fact perfectly safe enough for the average hisec PvE player to grind away billions of ISK mostly hassle free. I don't see your point aside from "some people in hisec are still able to be pee vee pee'd without their consent" which is the point of the game
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
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Hakawai
State War Academy Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 07:41:28 -
[168] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Hakawai wrote:I'm used to people here making stuff up to support crazy claims ... I guess at least making stuff up to support a crazy claim is a step up from others, who just make crazy claims without any supporting material whatsoever. Cough...Hakawai posts...cough Find one then. Any post you like except an obvious "slap" in response to some unusually stupid or dishonest post.
I don't doubt you'll find plenty of material you don't agree with or don't like - but that's to be expected in your case.
OTOH I never lie in forums. This doesn't mean I never make mistakes of course - but I don't "spin" what I'm saying, and I never just make stuff up and present it as evidence.
BTW even when I have to "slap" someone I don't make anything up, but I've never found "fisking" to be useful, so such posts are accurate, but usually incomplete. |
Liafcipe9000
ShekelSquad Interhole Revenue Service
37577
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 07:48:29 -
[169] - Quote
I hear dreddit is recruiting. |
Keno Skir
1367
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 07:50:47 -
[170] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Hakawai wrote:I'm used to people here making stuff up to support crazy claims ... I guess at least making stuff up to support a crazy claim is a step up from others, who just make crazy claims without any supporting material whatsoever. Cough...Hakawai posts...cough Find one then. Any post you like except an obvious "slap" in response to some unusually stupid or dishonest post. I don't doubt you'll find plenty of material you don't agree with or don't like - but that's to be expected in your case. OTOH I never lie in forums. This doesn't mean I never make mistakes of course - but I don't "spin" what I'm saying, and I never just make stuff up and present it as evidence. BTW:
- Even when I have to "slap" someone I don't make anything up, but I've never found "fisking" to be useful, so such posts are accurate, but usually incomplete.
- As far as I'm concerned, taking a few words out of context is no different to simply making stuff up on the spot. Obviously I don't have to go back and check I haven't been lying, but I will check the context of anything you present.
I'm pretty sure you're one of those "trolls" i've been hearing so much about. I could be wrong but i have seen you ignore some pretty decent supporting evidence in favour of continued opposition at any cost..
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
|
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2576
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 08:05:30 -
[171] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Compared to the past piracy in highsec is at its easiest.. Nope sorry mate i think that's incorrect. Just because ganking is in the limelight right now doesn't mean by any stretch hisec is more dangerous now than in the past. Can mechanics were changed to support new players and limit piracy, neutral logistics was nerfed with suspect timers, everyone got a nice green safety button to prevent them getting into fights and all the publicity surrounding ganking in recent days means anyone who still gets ganked is either extremely unlucky or acting foolishly. Piracy is catagorically harder in hisec now than it used to be and less common. It is in fact perfectly safe enough for the average hisec PvE player to grind away billions of ISK mostly hassle free. I don't see your point aside from "some people in hisec are still able to be pee vee pee'd without their consent" which is the point of the game Its not incorrect it is correct. Its never been easier to pirate anywhere in EvE as it currently is in High Security.
Piracy in high sec has not been nerfed its been buffed.
When Infinity Ziona was a young pilot around the end of 2003 she went to low sat on a gate and killed people until she was -9. She then had to join Stain Alliance and spend 3 weeks grinding sec before she could go back to high sec.
If I did the same thing with her today I could be back in high the same day.
That's only one aspect of the difficulty reduction. Other things like 2003 battleship DPS coming out of cheap frigs like cats and SB are also significant factors as are accelerated ISK faucets making easily replaceable suicide fleets possible.
Ganking in high in the early years was not easy which is why you had corps like Zombie getting banned for exploiting grids to do what happens on a daily basis today in Niarja Udaema
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8245
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 08:23:22 -
[172] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Eve has always been niche.
So are players like you.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Salvos Rhoska
2403
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 08:33:58 -
[173] - Quote
Consider the following:
What if CCP setup a PvE server where no non-consensual PvP would be possible.
There. Now you have a completely safe EVE experience.
An endless farming environment where prices on everything invariably drop to near zero, everyone is trillionaires, markets groan under untold accumulating stockpiles and everyone can produce everything they want.
HS/LS would be entirely empty, as everyone would live in NS, farming their little hearts out. And whomever owns NS would own it forever, as there is no way to fight them for it.
Nobody will buy PLEX, so you will all have to sub.
Is that what you want?
If so/or not, please explain why.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6150
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 08:34:23 -
[174] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Its not incorrect it is correct. Its never been easier to pirate anywhere in EvE as it currently is in High Security.
Piracy in high sec has not been nerfed its been buffed.
Really? What buffs?
Quote:When Infinity Ziona was a young pilot around the end of 2003 she went to low sat on a gate and killed people until she was -9. She then had to join Stain Alliance and spend 3 weeks grinding sec before she could go back to high sec.
If I did the same thing with her today I could be back in high the same day.
And how much do those tags cost?
Quote:That's only one aspect of the difficulty reduction. Other things like 2003 battleship DPS coming out of cheap frigs like cats and SB are also significant factors as are accelerated ISK faucets making easily replaceable suicide fleets possible.
Ganking in high in the early years was not easy which is why you had corps like Zombie getting banned for exploiting grids to do what happens on a daily basis today in Niarja Udaema
First off a catalyst does not put out the same DPS if you fit it the same. That is a gank cat will crap out about 684 DPS, a megathron fit similarly will crap out 1,419 DPS.
Further, using a megathron to gank with back in the day you'd get insurance. So in that respect ganking was easier.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
2403
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 08:40:07 -
[175] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:back in the day you'd get insurance. So in that respect ganking was easier.
You gotta admit though, that insurance payout for a CONCORD destroyed ship was stupid.
Sure it constituted a nerf of sorts, but this change shouldnt have come as a surprise to anyone.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6150
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 08:50:38 -
[176] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:back in the day you'd get insurance. So in that respect ganking was easier. You gotta admit though, that insurance payout for a CONCORD destroyed ship was stupid. Sure it constituted a nerf of sorts, but this change shouldnt have come as a surprise to anyone.
No doubt it was stupid, and IIRC an isk source too. Back then the insurance payout was based on a calculus unrelated to the actual hull value, as such it often paid to build a bunch of BS then self-destruct them on the undock. Using them to also gank was even better. Your insurance payout more than covered your ship loss and you got the gank loot as well.
The idea that suicide ganking has been buffed is simply laughable.
Edit: To be clear, the removal of insurance for suicide ganking was absolutely a nerf to suicide ganking. Yes, it made sense and I am not opposed to it, but to claim there have been buffs that surpass or even match this nerf is moronic in the extreme....oh wait, yeah I forgot I'm essentially responding to an Infinity Ziona post....moronic in the extreme is standard.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Hakawai
State War Academy Caldari State
95
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 10:32:51 -
[177] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote: I'm pretty sure you're one of those "trolls" i've been hearing so much about. I could be wrong but i have seen you ignore some pretty decent supporting evidence in favour of continued opposition at any cost..
No you haven't.
But I certainly don't always respond to posts where the fiction/fact balance is too skewed towards fiction, and it isn't a suitable starting point for something I want to say anyway.
I don't necessarily react to traps either, even if they might be accidental - the rule is "if it looks like a trap is it one" (movie reference there for you (your occasional posts in your "grunting neanderthal" persona don't fool me into thinking you are one :)) |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2580
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 11:21:46 -
[178] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Its not incorrect it is correct. Its never been easier to pirate anywhere in EvE as it currently is in High Security.
Piracy in high sec has not been nerfed its been buffed.
Really? What buffs? Quote:When Infinity Ziona was a young pilot around the end of 2003 she went to low sat on a gate and killed people until she was -9. She then had to join Stain Alliance and spend 3 weeks grinding sec before she could go back to high sec.
If I did the same thing with her today I could be back in high the same day. And how much do those tags cost? Quote:That's only one aspect of the difficulty reduction. Other things like 2003 battleship DPS coming out of cheap frigs like cats and SB are also significant factors as are accelerated ISK faucets making easily replaceable suicide fleets possible.
Ganking in high in the early years was not easy which is why you had corps like Zombie getting banned for exploiting grids to do what happens on a daily basis today in Niarja Udaema First off a catalyst does not put out the same DPS if you fit it the same. That is a gank cat will crap out about 684 DPS, a megathron fit similarly will crap out 1,419 DPS. Further, using a megathron to gank with back in the day you'd get insurance. So in that respect ganking was easier. Spoken like a true noob:
I clearly described the major buffs. Reduction in sec loss, addition in sec gains from PvE, sec gaining items, the isk faucets of anoms, moons, incursions easily offsets tag prices, buffing of wrecks so they can't be popped.
As stated already having to spend 3 weeks in null to grind up made ganking much much harder. That was the only way to raise it reliably and it was slow as ****.
Your comments about catalysts not being able to do what megas can do demonstrates why I generally laugh at your posts. Any EvE veteran knows cats do old mega damage. Or do you think we were undocking back then in 2016 megathrons?
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Keno Skir
1369
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 11:26:35 -
[179] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Compared to the past piracy in highsec is at its easiest.. Nope sorry mate i think that's incorrect. Just because ganking is in the limelight right now doesn't mean by any stretch hisec is more dangerous now than in the past. Can mechanics were changed to support new players and limit piracy, neutral logistics was nerfed with suspect timers, everyone got a nice green safety button to prevent them getting into fights and all the publicity surrounding ganking in recent days means anyone who still gets ganked is either extremely unlucky or acting foolishly. Piracy is catagorically harder in hisec now than it used to be and less common. It is in fact perfectly safe enough for the average hisec PvE player to grind away billions of ISK mostly hassle free. I don't see your point aside from "some people in hisec are still able to be pee vee pee'd without their consent" which is the point of the game Its not incorrect it is correct. Its never been easier to pirate anywhere in EvE as it currently is in High Security. Piracy in high sec has not been nerfed its been buffed. When Infinity Ziona was a young pilot around the end of 2003 she went to low sat on a gate and killed people until she was -9. She then had to join Stain Alliance and spend 3 weeks grinding sec before she could go back to high sec. If I did the same thing with her today I could be back in high the same day. That's only one aspect of the difficulty reduction. Other things like 2003 battleship DPS coming out of cheap frigs like cats and SB are also significant factors as are accelerated ISK faucets making easily replaceable suicide fleets possible. Ganking in high in the early years was not easy which is why you had corps like Zombie getting banned for exploiting grids to do what happens on a daily basis today in Niarja Udaema
Those are both strangely ganking specific (although you made out it was a lowsec thing). I can only assume you really just hate ganking and are using "piracy" as an alias for ganking specifically.
Infinity Ziona wrote:Spoken like a true noob
This makes you sound like a total dweeb
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Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
509
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 11:35:09 -
[180] - Quote
A few pages ago in this thread there was a dead horse. Now all I see is a heavily trafficked blood smear where it used to lay. |
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2581
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 11:44:51 -
[181] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Compared to the past piracy in highsec is at its easiest.. Nope sorry mate i think that's incorrect. Just because ganking is in the limelight right now doesn't mean by any stretch hisec is more dangerous now than in the past. Can mechanics were changed to support new players and limit piracy, neutral logistics was nerfed with suspect timers, everyone got a nice green safety button to prevent them getting into fights and all the publicity surrounding ganking in recent days means anyone who still gets ganked is either extremely unlucky or acting foolishly. Piracy is catagorically harder in hisec now than it used to be and less common. It is in fact perfectly safe enough for the average hisec PvE player to grind away billions of ISK mostly hassle free. I don't see your point aside from "some people in hisec are still able to be pee vee pee'd without their consent" which is the point of the game Its not incorrect it is correct. Its never been easier to pirate anywhere in EvE as it currently is in High Security. Piracy in high sec has not been nerfed its been buffed. When Infinity Ziona was a young pilot around the end of 2003 she went to low sat on a gate and killed people until she was -9. She then had to join Stain Alliance and spend 3 weeks grinding sec before she could go back to high sec. If I did the same thing with her today I could be back in high the same day. That's only one aspect of the difficulty reduction. Other things like 2003 battleship DPS coming out of cheap frigs like cats and SB are also significant factors as are accelerated ISK faucets making easily replaceable suicide fleets possible. Ganking in high in the early years was not easy which is why you had corps like Zombie getting banned for exploiting grids to do what happens on a daily basis today in Niarja Udaema Those are both strangely ganking specific (although you made out it was a lowsec thing). I can only assume you really just hate ganking and are using "piracy" as an alias for ganking specifically. Infinity Ziona wrote:Spoken like a true noob This makes you sound like a total dweeb The point is clear - to lose sec status which is not ganking specific its 1.0 through 0.1 sec specific it was much much harder to recover. A session of high sec ganking would have meant weeks in null chaining rats in belts. We didn't have easy mode sec loss sec gain, no on tap anoms or incursions or tags to buy.
Its not dweebiness its that I understand the difference between now and then. How many people who started EvE do you know minef their first battleship in a thorax. There have been huge changes in the game you're incapable of understanding them because you didn't experience them. I did so have a thorough understanding.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Keno Skir
1369
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 11:54:48 -
[182] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:The point is clear - to lose sec status which is not ganking specific its 1.0 through 0.1 sec specific it was much much harder to recover. A session of high sec ganking would have meant weeks in null chaining rats in belts. We didn't have easy mode sec loss sec gain, no on tap anoms or incursions or tags to buy.
Its not dweebiness its that I understand the difference between now and then. How many people who started EvE do you know minef their first battleship in a thorax. There have been huge changes in the game you're incapable of understanding them because you didn't experience them. I did so have a thorough understanding.
I've been around pretty much as long as you Ziona so don't try to lord it here.
I thought we were talking about piracy, but this is just another tired re-hash of the old ganking crutch. Ganking isn't really a big deal anyway as long as you don't read carebear whine threads. The VAST majority of freighters just go about their business in peace. Your understanding is blinkered.
EDIT : Yes calling someone a noob for disagreeing with you is Dweeby, Sad, Salty & Butt-Hurt regardless if you've been playing longer than them, and even if you know more than them.
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1053
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 11:58:43 -
[183] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: HS is relatively safe. It is not safe if you want to be a complete idiot.
It is relatively safe for someone like myself with 1000s of hours and multiple characters into the game - I rarely get ganked unless I get complacent or someone takes their time to study and target me specifically. For many new players though that isn't the case - many are easy prey and fed on by the bottom feeders - 4 out of 5 people that I've tried to get into the game and have quit have cited being ganked, usually more than once, before they could understand the game being the primary reason and that is after I've tried to guide them around the main pitfalls.
Personally though I'm not a big fan of making highsec too safe I like the potential and challenges that it can bring. |
Keno Skir
1369
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 12:02:29 -
[184] - Quote
Rroff wrote:4 out of 5 people that I've tried to get into the game and have quit have cited being ganked, usually more than once, before they could understand the game being the primary reason and that is after I've tried to guide them around the main pitfalls.
So did you tell them to fit a solid tank and not to carry more than X amount in cargo? If you did tell them and they still got ganked is that really "them not understanding the game" or is it them ignoring advice and losing as a result?
Sounds like you should help these people out, that you get into the game. If you educate them they won't be bottom feeder food anymore..
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
510
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 12:07:53 -
[185] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: HS is relatively safe. It is not safe if you want to be a complete idiot.
It is relatively safe for someone like myself with 1000s of hours and multiple characters into the game - I rarely get ganked unless I get complacent or someone takes their time to study and target me specifically. For many new players though that isn't the case - many are easy prey and fed on by the bottom feeders - 4 out of 5 people that I've tried to get into the game and have quit have cited being ganked, usually more than once, before they could understand the game being the primary reason and that is after I've tried to guide them around the main pitfalls. Personally though I'm not a big fan of making highsec too safe I like the potential and challenges that it can bring.
what kind of people run away after being killed once? looooooool like for real? exist people that give up after 1 try?
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1053
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 12:11:48 -
[186] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote: So did you tell them to fit a solid tank and not to carry more than X amount in cargo? If you did tell them and they still got ganked is that really "them not understanding the game" or is it them ignoring advice and losing as a result?
Sounds like you should help these people out, that you get into the game. If you educate them they won't be bottom feeder food anymore..
Always - but people will always do their own thing - you can lead em to water but you can't make them drink.
Soel Reit wrote:what kind of people run away after being killed once? looooooool like for real? exist people that give up after 1 try?
Some do - sadly more than once people have decided to undock with PLEX despite me telling them multiple times not to do that ever - when they see a month's subscription (or more) go down the drain having only played for a couple of weeks they usually quit. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
628
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 12:12:13 -
[187] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:the alpha and f2p plan failed
it should be just free to play all the way and for increased skill training sub..
also gankers should be banned permanently for griefing of any kind and afk cloaking.
Go away, you're talking bull poo.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
511
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 12:16:08 -
[188] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Keno Skir wrote: So did you tell them to fit a solid tank and not to carry more than X amount in cargo? If you did tell them and they still got ganked is that really "them not understanding the game" or is it them ignoring advice and losing as a result?
Sounds like you should help these people out, that you get into the game. If you educate them they won't be bottom feeder food anymore..
Always - but people will always do their own thing - you can lead em to water but you can't make them drink. Soel Reit wrote:what kind of people run away after being killed once? looooooool like for real? exist people that give up after 1 try? Some do - sadly more than once people have decided to undock with PLEX despite me telling them multiple times not to do that ever - when they see a month's subscription (or more) go down the drain having only played for a couple of weeks they usually quit.
clearly people not adapt at eve and its law: the jungle law... better that they've gone
eve is not a mainstream game adapt for all and never will be |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1053
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 12:27:52 -
[189] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:clearly people not adapt at eve and its law: the jungle law... better that they've gone eve is not a mainstream game adapt for all and never will be
True on the last bit but ultimately it does need enough active and paying customers to keep the game going and funding updates of future content, etc. |
Keno Skir
1372
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 14:23:09 -
[190] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Soel Reit wrote:clearly people not adapt at eve and its law: the jungle law... better that they've gone eve is not a mainstream game adapt for all and never will be True on the last bit but ultimately it does need enough active and paying customers to keep the game going and funding updates of future content, etc.
But only people who can accept the core elements, the rest are chaff and rightly so.
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
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March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2093
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 15:32:22 -
[191] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:piemmed you milla! am i the only one that laugh so much when i read in the patch notes: Relaxed the throttling on giving orders to Fighter Squadrons. This should result in less occurrences of busy squadrons during high APM usage.
and start imagining HIGH APM USAGE in a battle of 3k people in 10% TiDi? are the devs trolling or at what kind of game are they playing atm instead of eve? Heh... here you not having any ideas about ratting in a supercarrier?
I will answer: supercarrier does Haven in like 5-6 minutes. And this is like 6-8 waves of NPC. And for each NPC ship you need to select fighter and give it a command. Lots of clicks...
And with this patch they add whole bunch of additional clickfest to it: now you will need to order additional command to fighters to orbit something while they are finishing current target. Else new spawn of NPC can wreck some of fighters before you even lock new target.....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
513
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 16:26:46 -
[192] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Soel Reit wrote:piemmed you milla! am i the only one that laugh so much when i read in the patch notes: Relaxed the throttling on giving orders to Fighter Squadrons. This should result in less occurrences of busy squadrons during high APM usage.
and start imagining HIGH APM USAGE in a battle of 3k people in 10% TiDi? are the devs trolling or at what kind of game are they playing atm instead of eve? Heh... here you not having any ideas about ratting in a supercarrier? I will answer: supercarrier does Haven in like 5-6 minutes. And this is like 6-8 waves of NPC. And for each NPC ship you need to select fighter and give it a command. Lots of clicks... And with this patch they add whole bunch of additional clickfest to it: now you will need to order additional command to fighters to orbit something while they are finishing current target. Else new spawn of NPC can wreck some of fighters before you even lock new target.....
oh you mean the same people that are frequently on the kb with supers etc?? or even titans like that fcon dude??
ohhh i see
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March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2093
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 18:25:46 -
[193] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:March rabbit wrote:Soel Reit wrote:piemmed you milla! am i the only one that laugh so much when i read in the patch notes: Relaxed the throttling on giving orders to Fighter Squadrons. This should result in less occurrences of busy squadrons during high APM usage.
and start imagining HIGH APM USAGE in a battle of 3k people in 10% TiDi? are the devs trolling or at what kind of game are they playing atm instead of eve? Heh... here you not having any ideas about ratting in a supercarrier? I will answer: supercarrier does Haven in like 5-6 minutes. And this is like 6-8 waves of NPC. And for each NPC ship you need to select fighter and give it a command. Lots of clicks... And with this patch they add whole bunch of additional clickfest to it: now you will need to order additional command to fighters to orbit something while they are finishing current target. Else new spawn of NPC can wreck some of fighters before you even lock new target..... oh you mean the same people that are frequently on the kb with supers etc?? or even titans like that fcon dude?? ohhh i see hm? We were talking about CCP, fighters and high APM....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6027
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 18:39:35 -
[194] - Quote
I thought we were talking about CCP and F2P...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
517
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 18:53:18 -
[195] - Quote
i'm lost :/ someone can give me a HS k162 pls? xD |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6157
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 19:02:16 -
[196] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Spoken like a true noob:
I clearly described the major buffs. Reduction in sec loss, addition in sec gains from PvE, sec gaining items, the isk faucets of anoms, moons, incursions easily offsets tag prices, buffing of wrecks so they can't be popped.
As stated already having to spend 3 weeks in null to grind up made ganking much much harder. That was the only way to raise it reliably and it was slow as ****.
Your comments about catalysts not being able to do what megas can do demonstrates why I generally laugh at your posts. Any EvE veteran knows cats do old mega damage. Or do you think we were undocking back then in 2016 megathrons?
Also the insurance changes mean jack - dessies / SB are so cheap you do same DPS and lose the fitting costs of a Battleship without having to insure the battleship :)
Isn't one of your mantras that sec status means little to nothing? How can a change to a mechanic that means nothing be either a buff or nerf?
Moons are not ISK sources. And so what that there are ISK sources like anoms, mission and incursions? Just because there is a source of ISK does not mean using tags is trivial. Basically unless those players utilizing those ISK sources are the same one buying tags this point makes no sense. It is like the follow:
A: Bob has it easy. B: Why? A: Because Mary is rich! B: What does that have to do with Bob? A: You are such a noob if you can't see it! B: Mary doesn't even like Bob though...
How much does it cost to fix one's sec status. How much to go from -10 to 0? You keep pointing to having to go to NS to fix your sec status. But all tags have done is make that time fungible. Instead of spending the time, the player has the option to spend the ISK.
Further, perhaps you haven't noticed but most -5 and lower players have adapted to having such a sec status. Removing tags won't change that. Further, removing tags might bring forth new adaptations like Goons and their sec status safaris.
And the insurance change means it costs more to gank--i.e. it is harder. Further, it increases risk on any given gank. With no insurance and an unkind loot fairy any given gank can be for a loss, particularly if you are ganking a ship with say everything in a single stack, a single expensive item, or even a double warped package. In other words, the downside to ganking was quite low in the old days. And I used to do the calculations to determine the cargo value I could carry and be somewhat sure I'd not get ganked. It was 0.8-1 billion...not unlike today.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6157
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 19:09:20 -
[197] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: HS is relatively safe. It is not safe if you want to be a complete idiot.
It is relatively safe for someone like myself with 1000s of hours and multiple characters into the game - I rarely get ganked unless I get complacent or someone takes their time to study and target me specifically. For many new players though that isn't the case - many are easy prey and fed on by the bottom feeders - 4 out of 5 people that I've tried to get into the game and have quit have cited being ganked, usually more than once, before they could understand the game being the primary reason and that is after I've tried to guide them around the main pitfalls. Personally though I'm not a big fan of making highsec too safe I like the potential and challenges that it can bring.
It is called learning by doing or trial-and-error. You make a mistake and learn from that mistake. It is a self-correcting process. If you take away that process people cannot learn. They cannot learn that prudence trumps imprudence. It is a good thing when you think about it for awhile.
And for new players the analysis by CCP suggests that when they are killed they tend to stay longer and that it is quite rare, at least for suicide ganks.
Might want to have a chat with your friends if they are getting repeatedly ganked while still new. If it is true, then they are doing something very imprudent...repeatedly.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6157
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 19:11:23 -
[198] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Keno Skir wrote: So did you tell them to fit a solid tank and not to carry more than X amount in cargo? If you did tell them and they still got ganked is that really "them not understanding the game" or is it them ignoring advice and losing as a result?
Sounds like you should help these people out, that you get into the game. If you educate them they won't be bottom feeder food anymore..
Always - but people will always do their own thing - you can lead em to water but you can't make them drink.
Exactly. If they are going to be idiots in HS and then get ganked for it and not learn from it, I fail to see how that is my problem and not their problem.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Ramiel Wayfarer
5
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 20:45:17 -
[199] - Quote
All good things come to a end eventually, Eve online being one of them unfortunately....I will be sad to see the game end but it just isn't the same anymore, The 20-30 friends i roamed with never log in anymore and im the only one left, Alot of the game mechanics changed and made the game worse in my opinion, I still pay my subs and log in occasionally to do my training but that is it, I hope CCP pull there finger out and save eve i really do.
Fingers Crossed Rami |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1054
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 21:30:40 -
[200] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: It is called learning by doing or trial-and-error. You make a mistake and learn from that mistake. It is a self-correcting process. If you take away that process people cannot learn. They cannot learn that prudence trumps imprudence. It is a good thing when you think about it for awhile.
And for new players the analysis by CCP suggests that when they are killed they tend to stay longer and that it is quite rare, at least for suicide ganks.
Might want to have a chat with your friends if they are getting repeatedly ganked while still new. If it is true, then they are doing something very imprudent...repeatedly.
I'm not suggesting taking away that process but there is certainly some improvements to the way it unfolds in the early part of the game if the name is player retention - ultimately the figures tell a story no matter what romanticised version of it CCP comes up with or philosophical bs some players come out with.
I've offered a lot of advice and support but there is only so much you can do when someone is faced with both the steep learning curve of Eve and possibly negative interactions with other players - those that have persisted have tended to be the ones that haven't been ganked early on - in some cases that might be because they are smarter, quicker on the uptake or more persistent but in some cases its just luck and/or the path they happened to chose avoided it.
Teckos Pech wrote: Exactly. If they are going to be idiots in HS and then get ganked for it and not learn from it, I fail to see how that is my problem and not their problem.
Well ultimately it comes down to whether Eve can afford to lose those players who take a bit longer to get upto speed than others - ultimately the game is in a much better places the more active and the more invested into it is. I'm not really a fan of the attitude of who should and shouldn't play the game, maybe their involvement in some parts of the game. |
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marVLs
761
|
Posted - 2017.03.12 22:43:08 -
[201] - Quote
I think it's time for starting to develop EVE Second with completely new technology and todays standards but it needs to be very ambitious project (like Star Citizen) |
Austin Blythe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 00:43:56 -
[202] - Quote
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:EvE players, clearly, don't want safety. They've been leaving and new players aren't coming in to replace them. It's not because the current generation coming into online games has too short of an attention span to get into it. EvE is marketed as the cold, dark dystopian game where choices matter and you're never safe once you undock. That has become more false over the last 10 years. Compared to 2007 EvE, this game is bland and safe.
You think accounts logged in are at low to middle five figures because new players log in for the first time and think, "Hmm, this doesn't feel as dangerous as I thought it would"?
Nope nope nope. It's because it's old and niche. It's because of the way you control your ship. It's because the UI is a hot mess of windows. It's because the EVE universe is basically a network of instanced desktop wallpapers that you can fly around in. It's because almost everything takes so damn long. It's because of everything that makes that infamous learning curve graph so true.
I still enjoy it, most of the time. But the number of people who'll enjoy this game in today's market is adequately reflected in the PCU. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6173
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 02:58:51 -
[203] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: It is called learning by doing or trial-and-error. You make a mistake and learn from that mistake. It is a self-correcting process. If you take away that process people cannot learn. They cannot learn that prudence trumps imprudence. It is a good thing when you think about it for awhile.
And for new players the analysis by CCP suggests that when they are killed they tend to stay longer and that it is quite rare, at least for suicide ganks.
Might want to have a chat with your friends if they are getting repeatedly ganked while still new. If it is true, then they are doing something very imprudent...repeatedly.
I'm not suggesting taking away that process but there is certainly some improvements to the way it unfolds in the early part of the game if the name is player retention - ultimately the figures tell a story no matter what romanticised version of it CCP comes up with or philosophical bs some players come out with. I've offered a lot of advice and support but there is only so much you can do when someone is faced with both the steep learning curve of Eve and possibly negative interactions with other players - those that have persisted have tended to be the ones that haven't been ganked early on - in some cases that might be because they are smarter, quicker on the uptake or more persistent but in some cases its just luck and/or the path they happened to chose avoided it. Teckos Pech wrote: Exactly. If they are going to be idiots in HS and then get ganked for it and not learn from it, I fail to see how that is my problem and not their problem.
Well ultimately it comes down to whether Eve can afford to lose those players who take a bit longer to get upto speed than others - ultimately the game is in a much better places the more active and the more invested into it is. I'm not really a fan of the attitude of who should and shouldn't play the game, maybe their involvement in some parts of the game.
No you are wrong.
First off, new players should not be out there booming around in freighters. If they are they are being very imprudent and foolish and that should not be rewarded. Second, again looking at the CCP presentation new players who are suicide ganked or even killed legally tend to stay longer. There could be a type of selection bias here, but the evidence does not show that shooting new players is bad for retention. Third trial-and-error only works when you let players make errors. Remove the ability to make errors, or reduce the costs of making errors and they either are not a method for learning or they stop being errors.
And interactions with other players is what seems to keep people engaged with the game. Both negative and positive interactions. At least that is my view. Trying to limit negative interactions means you limit interactions and on an arbitrary basis and in a way that may end up rewarding players being imprudent and foolish. Once that kind of protection ends it will likely be bad. A player wondering why his foolishness was not costly and suddenly now is costly? Just make it costly from the beginning.
As for keeping players, if you decide that keeping players at any and all costs is the route to go I think you'll end up being ******. Eventually many of the current players will quite. I'd quite. My guess is Daichi, Jonah, Jenn, Torin, Nana, Cade, Scipio, Shae, Linus and many others would quit. You might keep some new players, but a large portion of the long time paying customers would walk. If HS became "locked at safeties green" I'd have to seriously reconsider my financial support for the game. That is some salty nonsense, it is simply a statement of fact. I like playing a game where no matter where I go or what I do there is an element of danger. Take that away and my interest is largely gone.
Or let me put it this way: the idea of making the game safer appears to be costing CCP many long term players. And it does not seem to be resulting in many new subs/players. In fact, the professional ganking groups that have arisen and the HS terrorists that are CODE. maybe be exacerbating the problem....but that is entirely the result of CCPs own blinkered policies.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3904
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 02:59:39 -
[204] - Quote
Austin Blythe wrote: I still enjoy it, most of the time. But the number of people who'll enjoy this game in today's market is adequately reflected in the PCU.
Or you know, it's because MMO's in general are far less popular, and EVE probably has a larger percent of the MMO market than it did five or ten years ago. MOBA's are massively taking over what used to be the MMO market area.
It's nothing to do with the tech level of EVE (which is great).
Also, everyone stop misquoting CCP. Ganking players does not make them stay longer. CCP noticed that players who stayed longer tended to be more likely to have had some kind of PvP yes, but correlation does not make for causation. End of the day socially engaging players is what makes them stay above any other factor. |
mkint
1582
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 03:07:02 -
[205] - Quote
marVLs wrote:I think it's time for starting to develop EVE Second with completely new technology and todays standards but it needs to be very ambitious project (like Star Citizen) This has been a dumb idea since people have been saying it since the year EVE came out. What they need to do is what they have been doing. Gradually replacing, piece by piece, the parts of the game that are developmental dead ends. What's up with people who don't understand how online gaming works? They seem to think everything needs sequels. Sequels are never for the consumer, they are so studios can sell you the same thing all over again without having to do anything new for it. And then dumbasses go ahead and pre-order because they don't understand how digital distribution works.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2585
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 03:15:32 -
[206] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: HS is relatively safe. It is not safe if you want to be a complete idiot.
It is relatively safe for someone like myself with 1000s of hours and multiple characters into the game - I rarely get ganked unless I get complacent or someone takes their time to study and target me specifically. For many new players though that isn't the case - many are easy prey and fed on by the bottom feeders - 4 out of 5 people that I've tried to get into the game and have quit have cited being ganked, usually more than once, before they could understand the game being the primary reason and that is after I've tried to guide them around the main pitfalls. Personally though I'm not a big fan of making highsec too safe I like the potential and challenges that it can bring. It is called learning by doing or trial-and-error. You make a mistake and learn from that mistake. It is a self-correcting process. If you take away that process people cannot learn. They cannot learn that prudence trumps imprudence. It is a good thing when you think about it for awhile. And for new players the analysis by CCP suggests that when they are killed they tend to stay longer and that it is quite rare, at least for suicide ganks. Might want to have a chat with your friends if they are getting repeatedly ganked while still new. If it is true, then they are doing something very imprudent. ] You don't understand because you lack a basic understanding of economics. I'm no economist myself but I do understand that a monetary unit is directly related to the work required to buy something costing that monetary unit at the bottom end.
If the cost of battleships has doubled which it has but the time required to earn an isk has quadrupled which it has then its still twice as easy to buy one now than it was back then.
Given battleships are no longer used anyway that point is moot however it still translates to other ships. You can earn 60 million an hour in an anom easily, so it takes an hour to pay back a fit SB and still have 20 mill change. In the past it would take a lot longer to earn that back as well as significant investment repairing sec, remember work is cost too.
I don't think you're entirely stupid I think you're one of those people who refuse to understand because you equate conceding a point as an E-weakness and you're heavily invested in being an E-pirate.
Good luck with that :)
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6173
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 04:55:05 -
[207] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: You don't understand because you lack a basic understanding of economics. I'm no economist myself....
What makes this totally ******* hilarious is...I am a ******* economist. I would have thought my signature gave it away, but with you I guess not.
Quote:....but I do understand that a monetary unit is directly related to the work required to buy something costing that monetary unit at the bottom end.
If the cost of battleships has doubled which it has but the time required to earn an isk has quadrupled which it has then its still twice as easy to buy one now than it was back then.
No dope it is twice as hard. Here let me help your stupid ass...
Price of BS = 2x.
Time required to purchase a BS = 4x.
Then the time to buy has doubled: that is--4x/2x = (4/2)*x = 2*x.
In other words it is twice as hard. You have it exactly backwards.
Quote:Given battleships are no longer used anyway that point is moot however it still translates to other ships. You can earn 60 million an hour in an anom easily, so it takes an hour to pay back a fit SB and still have 20 mill change. In the past it would take a lot longer to earn that back as well as significant investment repairing sec, remember work is cost too.
Sure, but you still have sunk 40 minutes of that hour into the SB. And while you are earning that SB you cannot be simultaneously ganking either.
Quote:I don't think you're entirely stupid I think you're one of those people who refuse to understand because you equate conceding a point as an E-weakness and you're heavily invested in being an E-pirate.
Your problem is you just can't see what you cannot see--i.e. you lack imagination. My post a few pages back on this describes your problem. I am not going to go over it again because that is casting pearls before swine. My guess is some at CCP are looking at this thread and between my posts and your posts they are going to side with me. Because CCP employees are not dumb....after all every time they have nerfed ganking they appear to have stealthed buffed it indirectly. As CCP Fozzie put it, every time they nerf something they like to buff something else to keep the balance. Why is it that the amount you can move without fear of gank now is about the same as it was in 2008?
Here is a hint: CCP are not your friends. Every time you think they hand you a nerf, they are bending you over and ass ******* you in some other area of the game. Which is why you and dopes like you keep having to come back to the forums and whine and whine and whine.
Perhaps if you focused on shoring up your game play vs. trying to have CCP cut everyone else's game play you'd end up better off. Oh who am I kidding you are the champion of morons and ignoramii. You'll always be here whining and complaining because you have nothing else.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Hakawai
State War Academy Caldari State
96
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 06:16:23 -
[208] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Also, everyone stop misquoting CCP. Ganking players does not make them stay longer. CCP noticed that players who stayed longer tended to be more likely to have had some kind of PvP yes, but correlation does not make for causation. Thanks for pointing this out. I questioned this a while ago and starting thinking I was the only person on these forums who can tell the difference between correlation and causation :)
I never did get a link to any useful source material, but someone (but IIRC one of the forums "unreliable narrators" so even if I remember correctly the numbers and context may be wrong :) said that they'd looked at a lot (80K?) of trials, and those that had "been killed by another player" before the end of the two-week trial were more likely to stay.
It's clearly not evidence that losing a T1/T1 frigate to a "fun-vampire" in a much stronger ship makes people stay. IMO the first thing to check would be whether an early PVP loss is a proxy for "social PvP" (e.g. trying stuff out with friends or members of the same Corp).
Nevyn Auscent wrote:End of the day socially engaging players is what makes them stay above any other factor. Indeed. |
March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2094
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 06:30:24 -
[209] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I thought we were talking about CCP and F2P... Yeah, sorry.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Hakawai
State War Academy Caldari State
96
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 06:39:38 -
[210] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:You don't understand because you lack a basic understanding of economics. I'm no economist myself but I do understand that a monetary unit is directly related to the work required to buy something costing that monetary unit at the bottom end.
If the cost of battleships has doubled which it has but the time required to earn an isk has quadrupled which it has then its still twice as easy to buy one now than it was back then.
Given battleships are no longer used anyway that point is moot however it still translates to other ships. You can earn 60 million an hour in an anom easily, so it takes an hour to pay back a fit SB and still have 20 mill change. In the past it would take a lot longer to earn that back as well as significant investment repairing sec, remember work is cost too.
I don't think you're entirely stupid I think you're one of those people who refuse to understand because you equate conceding a point as an E-weakness and you're heavily invested in being an E-pirate.
Good luck with that :) There's a typo in this that should probably be fixed: you clearly meant "earn ISK four times as fast", or "earn ISK in a quarter of the time" or something similar.
The intended meaning is obvious to anyone who actually reads the post, but that's something you can safely assume here :) |
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2585
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 07:45:53 -
[211] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:You don't understand because you lack a basic understanding of economics. I'm no economist myself but I do understand that a monetary unit is directly related to the work required to buy something costing that monetary unit at the bottom end.
If the cost of battleships has doubled which it has but the time required to earn an isk has quadrupled which it has then its still twice as easy to buy one now than it was back then.
Given battleships are no longer used anyway that point is moot however it still translates to other ships. You can earn 60 million an hour in an anom easily, so it takes an hour to pay back a fit SB and still have 20 mill change. In the past it would take a lot longer to earn that back as well as significant investment repairing sec, remember work is cost too.
I don't think you're entirely stupid I think you're one of those people who refuse to understand because you equate conceding a point as an E-weakness and you're heavily invested in being an E-pirate.
Good luck with that :) There's a typo in this that should probably be fixed: you clearly meant "earn ISK four times as fast", or "earn ISK in a quarter of the time" or something similar. The intended meaning is obvious to anyone who actually reads the post, but that's something you can safely assume here :)
Yup lol. Fixed
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2585
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 07:51:25 -
[212] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: You don't understand because you lack a basic understanding of economics. I'm no economist myself....
What makes this totally ******* hilarious is...I am a ******* economist. I would have thought my signature gave it away, but with you I guess not. Quote:....but I do understand that a monetary unit is directly related to the work required to buy something costing that monetary unit at the bottom end.
If the cost of battleships has doubled which it has but the time required to earn an isk has quadrupled which it has then its still twice as easy to buy one now than it was back then. No dope it is twice as hard. Here let me help your stupid ass... Price of BS = 2x. Time required to purchase a BS = 4x. Then the time to buy has doubled: that is--4x/2x = (4/2)*x = 2*x. In other words it is twice as hard. You have it exactly backwards. Quote:Given battleships are no longer used anyway that point is moot however it still translates to other ships. You can earn 60 million an hour in an anom easily, so it takes an hour to pay back a fit SB and still have 20 mill change. In the past it would take a lot longer to earn that back as well as significant investment repairing sec, remember work is cost too. Sure, but you still have sunk 40 minutes of that hour into the SB. And while you are earning that SB you cannot be simultaneously ganking either. Quote:I don't think you're entirely stupid I think you're one of those people who refuse to understand because you equate conceding a point as an E-weakness and you're heavily invested in being an E-pirate.
Your problem is you just can't see what you cannot see--i.e. you lack imagination. My post a few pages back on this describes your problem. I am not going to go over it again because that is casting pearls before swine. My guess is some at CCP are looking at this thread and between my posts and your posts they are going to side with me. Because CCP employees are not dumb....after all every time they have nerfed ganking they appear to have stealthed buffed it indirectly. As CCP Fozzie put it, every time they nerf something they like to buff something else to keep the balance. Why is it that the amount you can move without fear of gank now is about the same as it was in 2008? Here is a hint: CCP are not your friends. Every time you think they hand you a nerf, they are bending you over and ass ******* you in some other area of the game. Which is why you and dopes like you keep having to come back to the forums and whine and whine and whine. Perhaps if you focused on shoring up your game play vs. trying to have CCP cut everyone else's game play you'd end up better off. Oh who am I kidding you are the champion of morons and ignoramii. You'll always be here whining and complaining because you have nothing else. This explains the GFC....
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
410
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 07:53:18 -
[213] - Quote
marVLs wrote:I think it's time for starting to develop EVE Second with completely new technology and todays standards but it needs to be very ambitious project (like Star Citizen)
I better be able to import my character with skills, I don't care about the items but ill be damned on restarting from 50k sp after 12 years
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2585
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 08:03:45 -
[214] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: You don't understand because you lack a basic understanding of economics. I'm no economist myself....
What makes this totally ******* hilarious is...I am a ******* economist. I would have thought my signature gave it away, but with you I guess not. Quote:....but I do understand that a monetary unit is directly related to the work required to buy something costing that monetary unit at the bottom end.
If the cost of battleships has doubled which it has but the time required to earn an isk has quadrupled which it has then its still twice as easy to buy one now than it was back then. No dope it is twice as hard. Here let me help your stupid ass... Price of BS = 2x. Time required to purchase a BS = 4x. Then the time to buy has doubled: that is--4x/2x = (4/2)*x = 2*x. In other words it is twice as hard. You have it exactly backwards. Quote:Given battleships are no longer used anyway that point is moot however it still translates to other ships. You can earn 60 million an hour in an anom easily, so it takes an hour to pay back a fit SB and still have 20 mill change. In the past it would take a lot longer to earn that back as well as significant investment repairing sec, remember work is cost too. Sure, but you still have sunk 40 minutes of that hour into the SB. And while you are earning that SB you cannot be simultaneously ganking either. Quote:I don't think you're entirely stupid I think you're one of those people who refuse to understand because you equate conceding a point as an E-weakness and you're heavily invested in being an E-pirate.
Your problem is you just can't see what you cannot see--i.e. you lack imagination. My post a few pages back on this describes your problem. I am not going to go over it again because that is casting pearls before swine. My guess is some at CCP are looking at this thread and between my posts and your posts they are going to side with me. Because CCP employees are not dumb....after all every time they have nerfed ganking they appear to have stealthed buffed it indirectly. As CCP Fozzie put it, every time they nerf something they like to buff something else to keep the balance. Why is it that the amount you can move without fear of gank now is about the same as it was in 2008? Here is a hint: CCP are not your friends. Every time you think they hand you a nerf, they are bending you over and ass ******* you in some other area of the game. Which is why you and dopes like you keep having to come back to the forums and whine and whine and whine. Perhaps if you focused on shoring up your game play vs. trying to have CCP cut everyone else's game play you'd end up better off. Oh who am I kidding you are the champion of morons and ignoramii. You'll always be here whining and complaining because you have nothing else. This explains the GFC....
You're also making the mistake of looking at one part of the post in isolation. As an economist you should understand one issue compounding others. As well as easier access to isk there is the added problem of more DPS and less time being spent away grinding security status.
In the old days a Megathron would be 120 mill. To fit it would cost about 30 mill. To insure it from memory around 60. That's 210 mill. From memory you would get around 120 mill. It'd require 30 to take out a freighter.
Today 12 SB at 40 mill will kill a freighter.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Mav Ahishatsu
RLMT Incorporated
2
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 08:10:33 -
[215] - Quote
OP is factually inaccurate: http://northstack.is/index.php/2017/03/02/ccp-posts-record-revenues-announces-new-game/
TLDR: 20.7 million in profits in 2016, Alphas and F2P = successful. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47288
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 08:11:32 -
[216] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Also, everyone stop misquoting CCP. Ganking players does not make them stay longer. CCP noticed that players who stayed longer tended to be more likely to have had some kind of PvP yes, but correlation does not make for causation. Thanks for pointing this out. I questioned this a while ago and starting thinking I was the only person on these forums who can tell the difference between correlation and causation :) I never did get a link to any useful source material, but someone (but IIRC one of the forums "unreliable narrators" so even if I remember correctly the numbers and context may be wrong Honest question here: why would anyone link anything helpful for you when you constantly refer to people you don't like as 'fun vampires', 'unreliable narrators', etc?
What would be the reason anyone would assist you (after having taken the time/effort to look at the evidence themselves), when you constantly reduce them to an insult?
However, this may be what you are looking for:
https://youtu.be/A92Ge2S8M1Y?t=148
On the issue of correlation and causation, we all know this. It's one of the most cliche statements to make and people make it as a way to dismiss information without thinking deeper about whether it applies. As an alternative, this is a very useful article:
https://medium.freecodecamp.com/if-correlation-doesnt-imply-causation-then-what-does-c74f20d26438#.shh1whbnx
So from a business decision perspective, what should CCP do? Look at the evidence and make the best decision they can on the basis of it, or just guess? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6175
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 08:29:41 -
[217] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Wow...so you had too respond to me twice and yet you keep getting it wrong.
As an economist I will say this,
You do not understand the game. That what we see is only the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is not seen it is below the water line. When you say suicide ganking is easy that is simply not true. It is not like some random group of players decide to do it. No, instead it is Miniluv, CODE. or some other group. A group that has an SRP, comms, FCs, a logistics operation to ensure there are ships in place, etc.
All of that you want to discount as meaningless and of zero cost.
This makes you a liar...a despicably lying douche bag.
And despite several rounds of nerfs to ganking here you are again saying that more nerfs are needed. And you are oblivious to the fact that CCP keeps on boning you in the butt. For every "nerf" they give you they also do you in the butt like the little bitches you are. Please CCP nerf ganking and do me in the butt again and again so I know my place as the dirty little tart I am. That is what you are Infinity Ziona. CCP's dirty little laughing stock of a butt **** that they throw out on the garbage heap after the fun of Fanfest. And you keep crawling back to them again and again, and they keep treating you like the cheap whore that you are.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6044
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 08:57:43 -
[218] - Quote
Just because CCP may have posted record profits in 2016 (SKINs, skill extractors, no more associated costs with Dust 514 and World of Darkness) does not mean F2P is actually a contributing factor. We'll see at FanFest (if they announce or release any data, that is). TLDR: You're an idiot.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47290
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 09:06:44 -
[219] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:We'll see at FanFest (if they announce or release any data, that is). This thread already declares it a failure. Why would evidence of anything actually make any difference? |
Mav Ahishatsu
RLMT Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 09:20:07 -
[220] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Just because CCP may have posted record profits in 2016 (SKINs, skill extractors, no more associated costs with Dust 514 and World of Darkness) does not mean F2P is actually a contributing factor. It does, however, mean that it was not a failure, therefore "Alphas and F2P Have Failed" is a factually inaccurate statement. Also, go here (http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility) and look at the actual player count over the past five years. Notice how the player count increased to numbers that hadn't been seen since 2012 at the exact same time the game went F2P. Also, note the fact that the player count has remained above average in comparison to the 18 months prior. |
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2587
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 09:29:12 -
[221] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
Wow...so you had too respond to me twice and yet you keep getting it wrong.
As an economist I will say this, You do not understand the game. That what we see is only the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is not seen it is below the water line. When you say suicide ganking is easy that is simply not true. It is not like some random group of players decide to do it. No, instead it is Miniluv, CODE. or some other group. A group that has an SRP, comms, FCs, a logistics operation to ensure there are ships in place, etc. All of that you want to discount as meaningless and of zero cost. This makes you a liar...a despicably lying douche bag. And despite several rounds of nerfs to ganking here you are again saying that more nerfs are needed. And you are oblivious to the fact that CCP keeps on boning you in the butt. For every "nerf" they give you they also do you in the butt like the little bitches you are. Please CCP nerf ganking and do me in the butt again and again so I know my place as the dirty little tart I am. That is what you are Infinity Ziona. CCP's dirty little laughing stock of a butt **** that they throw out on the garbage heap after the fun of Fanfest. And you keep crawling back to them again and again, and they keep treating you like the cheap whore that you are. :)
In Desperation ignore the facts and go spazy ad hominem. Love it. Post more xx
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
2181
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 10:05:32 -
[222] - Quote
The number you need to tell if Alpha Clones failed or not is the share of new players that keep playing compared to the old trail. And you would need to know if some vets were droven away by the new model. But active player total has far more causes to look at.
Player numbers had a couple of reason to go up and down and it is hard to tell what had the biggest impact: -Players coming back because of alpha and subbing again because they found a couple of old friends online -New players starting because of Alpha Clones and staying -Players unsubing off-grid booster alts -Players taking a break after month of war campaigns -Players unsubing alt accounts because they switched from multi-account mining to Roqual mining -What time of the year and what part of the GÇ£EVE is Great GÇôEVE is DeadGÇ¥ curve we are in.
I witnessed FTP models that drove long time players away and CCP was very careful with their own plan. Alpha is nothing that would make you say: GÇ¥AWWW freeloaders, **** this I am out.GÇ¥ EVE does better than all other sandbox MMOs and I think CCPs product and brand development (for EVE, canGÇÖt tell for the other CCP games) is on spot.
|
The Fukuzawa
New Eden Trade Group
26
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 10:07:29 -
[223] - Quote
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:The number you need to tell if Alpha Clones failed or not is the share of new players that keep playing compared to the old trail. And you would need to know if some vets were droven away by the new model. But active player total has far more causes to look at.
Player numbers had a couple of reason to go up and down and it is hard to tell what had the biggest impact: -Players coming back because of alpha and subbing again because they found a couple of old friends online -New players starting because of Alpha Clones and staying -Players unsubing off-grid booster alts -Players taking a break after month of war campaigns -Players unsubing alt accounts because they switched from multi-account mining to Roqual mining -What time of the year and what part of the GÇ£EVE is Great GÇôEVE is DeadGÇ¥ curve we are in.
I witnessed FTP models that drove long time players away and CCP was very careful with their own plan. Alpha is nothing that would make you say: GÇ¥AWWW freeloaders, **** this I am out.GÇ¥ EVE does better than all other sandbox MMOs and I think CCPs product and brand development (for EVE, canGÇÖt tell for the other CCP games) is on spot.
plus fuckn one
! ! ! New Eden Trade Group is paying monthly interest to investors, contact me if interested ! ! !
If you already assume we are scammers without looking at what we offer objectively, go ahead and F*** off.
Thank you, that is all.
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Vayen Kukkus
8
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 10:34:05 -
[224] - Quote
Looks like someone has a grudge against alpha players.
DUST 514 FOREVER!!!!
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March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2094
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 10:34:19 -
[225] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:From a business decision perspective, what should CCP do? Look at the evidence and make the best decision they can on the basis of it, or not try to validate anything they do and just guess? Well...
For me the the most natural would be to look at every expired and for long not returned account. To look at his characters, they main area of space (high-sec, low-sec, 0.0, WH), main activity (trading, pvp, pve, whatever), they main connections (to discovery other alts of that player) and their area and activity.
And then using this data choose the most problem area of space and activity based on the biggest loss of active players. Maybe contact some of them in personal using email provided.
It would take a lot of time and effort but will provide the most reliable source for any decisions.
I haven't heard about such studies done by CCP. What they did and what they told in that FanFest (and what is widely using as 'ganking is good' by some forumites) is not even close to real searching for reason of losing players.
As proof (my personal anecdote): i know about many people who left the game for last 7 years. And not one of them left because of ganking nor nerfs to it. Some left because their main activity (PVE in 0.0 and evading PvP) is boring. Some other left because RL reasons. Some left because of high-sec PvP mechanics (OGBs, neutral logi and bumpers, station games).
So yeah, for me all this studi was just FanFest fluff. Made purely to make drunk fans happy.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Austin Blythe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 11:03:06 -
[226] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:As an economist I will say this
rofl |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1054
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 11:31:03 -
[227] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: No you are wrong.
First off, new players should not be out there booming around in freighters. If they are they are being very imprudent and foolish and that should not be rewarded. Second, again looking at the CCP presentation new players who are suicide ganked or even killed legally tend to stay longer. There could be a type of selection bias here, but the evidence does not show that shooting new players is bad for retention. Third trial-and-error only works when you let players make errors. Remove the ability to make errors, or reduce the costs of making errors and they either are not a method for learning or they stop being errors.
And interactions with other players is what seems to keep people engaged with the game. Both negative and positive interactions. At least that is my view. Trying to limit negative interactions means you limit interactions and on an arbitrary basis and in a way that may end up rewarding players being imprudent and foolish. Once that kind of protection ends it will likely be bad. A player wondering why his foolishness was not costly and suddenly now is costly? Just make it costly from the beginning.
As for keeping players, if you decide that keeping players at any and all costs is the route to go I think you'll end up being ******. Eventually many of the current players will quite. I'd quite. My guess is Daichi, Jonah, Jenn, Torin, Nana, Cade, Scipio, Shae, Linus and many others would quit. You might keep some new players, but a large portion of the long time paying customers would walk. If HS became "locked at safeties green" I'd have to seriously reconsider my financial support for the game. That is some salty nonsense, it is simply a statement of fact. I like playing a game where no matter where I go or what I do there is an element of danger. Take that away and my interest is largely gone.
Or let me put it this way: the idea of making the game safer appears to be costing CCP many long term players. And it does not seem to be resulting in many new subs/players. In fact, the professional ganking groups that have arisen and the HS terrorists that are CODE. maybe be exacerbating the problem....but that is entirely the result of CCPs own blinkered policies.
I doubt I'm wrong - I'm not talking about freighter ganking for instance this is what happened to one person I know - after one of the events that made it to the mainstream press they got interested in the game mostly with a long term goal of getting into "nullsec mining" (that was their idea) didn't play much until they were skilled up for mining barges as they didn't fancy t1 frig mining - lost 2 retrievers to ganks mining near Jita in one day the first having barely paid for the second - I either gave them ISK for or gave them a retriever I can't remember which and recommended they moved to somewhere quieter and they got ganked again having moved to one of the places I recommended and promptly threw in the game.
Interactions with other players need to have some balance to them and unfortunately while it might not be unduly bad for every new player there is a not insignificant number who have a much more negative initial impression - people who are in some cases probably no different to many that do get into the game long term but happened to come off worse in their first few days or weeks. People can wax lyrical about the type of people that stick with Eve or whatever but the reality is many just had a balanced enough experience to learn how to walk before having to face too much of the negative aspects.
I can't pretend to have an answer to it and new player retention certainly isn't the only reason for a declining player base - I'm no fan of making highsec significantly safer and nothing is coming to me right now as to how to solve it. One aspect that I know has been a big factor in some of them quitting is the lack of ability to retaliate - I've been asked more than once before, before someone quit, to help them get revenge and I've had to tell them that there is little that they or I can do to meaningfully interdict for instance someone's random alt that is only used purely for catalyst ganking and so on. |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 11:49:29 -
[228] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: Well...
For me the the most natural would be to look at every expired and for long not returned account. To look at his characters, they main area of space (high-sec, low-sec, 0.0, WH), main activity (trading, pvp, pve, whatever), they main connections (to discovery other alts of that player) and their area and activity.
And then using this data choose the most problem area of space and activity based on the biggest loss of active players. Maybe contact some of them in personal using email provided.
It would take a lot of time and effort but will provide the most reliable source for any decisions.
I haven't heard about such studies done by CCP. What they did and what they told in that FanFest (and what is widely using as 'ganking is good' by some forumites) is not even close to real searching for reason of losing players.
As proof (my personal anecdote): i know about many people who left the game for last 7 years. And not one of them left because of ganking nor nerfs to it. Some left because their main activity (PVE in 0.0 and evading PvP) is boring. Some other left because RL reasons. Some left because of high-sec PvP mechanics (OGBs, neutral logi and bumpers, station games).
So yeah, for me all this studi was just FanFest fluff. Made purely to make drunk fans happy.
Personally I had characters in or at some time involved in pretty much every part of the game except faction warfare which I've never touched - there are reasons people "quit" the game i.e. boredom but most of those who've played for any length of time have a love for the game and will come back from time to time, those that really quit are another matter.
Most people I know who've really quit (other than those that didn't make it initially) including myself have done so due to too often becoming collateral in sweeping changes where we've been involved in gameplay unconnected to areas that needed changes or rebalancing or whatever but have been ignored and/or even trampled over - the odd time you can write off but when it happens to often you tend to just quit. I still have some love for the game as I'm still posting here but it would take something special for me to ever pay to play the game again or even invest any time in it other than occasionally logging in as an alpha to touch base with old friends, etc. |
mkint
1586
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 12:29:22 -
[229] - Quote
Mav Ahishatsu wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Just because CCP may have posted record profits in 2016 (SKINs, skill extractors, no more associated costs with Dust 514 and World of Darkness) does not mean F2P is actually a contributing factor. It does, however, mean that it was not a failure, therefore "Alphas and F2P Have Failed" is a factually inaccurate statement. Also, go here ( http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility) and look at the actual player count over the past five years. Notice how the player count increased to numbers that hadn't been seen since 2012 at the exact same time the game went F2P. Also, note the fact that the player count has remained above average in comparison to the 18 months prior. I watch those numbers pretty closely. After the f2p launch, there was no new upward momentum. Nobody going "hey, this is great, tell your friends" causing the numbers to gain an upward trend and continue upward. It was a single peak with a decline at approximately the same rate that it has been declining for the preceding several years. It's like people saw advertising, tried the game, decided it wasn't worth their time, and didn't ever come back or tell anybody about it. All trend graphs are about momentum, and the f2p peak didn't break the downward momentum at all, despite a 1-day peak. Of course the numbers are higher than they were before (but not higher than they were last year), you don't have to pay to log in now. Shoot, the "increase in revenue" could include an "increase in valuation" based on weird icelandic banking math (have yourself a read about icelandic banking, it's ridiculous.) And yeah, it could actually represent an increase in income and profits from EVE (except it probably doesn't) and f2p could still be a failure because it didn't turn the momentum of EVE's decline.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3188
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 13:51:28 -
[230] - Quote
mkint wrote:Mav Ahishatsu wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Just because CCP may have posted record profits in 2016 (SKINs, skill extractors, no more associated costs with Dust 514 and World of Darkness) does not mean F2P is actually a contributing factor. It does, however, mean that it was not a failure, therefore "Alphas and F2P Have Failed" is a factually inaccurate statement. Also, go here ( http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility) and look at the actual player count over the past five years. Notice how the player count increased to numbers that hadn't been seen since 2012 at the exact same time the game went F2P. Also, note the fact that the player count has remained above average in comparison to the 18 months prior. I watch those numbers pretty closely. After the f2p launch, there was no new upward momentum. Nobody going "hey, this is great, tell your friends" causing the numbers to gain an upward trend and continue upward. It was a single peak with a decline at approximately the same rate that it has been declining for the preceding several years. It's like people saw advertising, tried the game, decided it wasn't worth their time, and didn't ever come back or tell anybody about it. All trend graphs are about momentum, and the f2p peak didn't break the downward momentum at all, despite a 1-day peak. Of course the numbers are higher than they were before (but not higher than they were last year), you don't have to pay to log in now. Shoot, the "increase in revenue" could include an "increase in valuation" based on weird icelandic banking math (have yourself a read about icelandic banking, it's ridiculous.) And yeah, it could actually represent an increase in income and profits from EVE (except it probably doesn't) and f2p could still be a failure because it didn't turn the momentum of EVE's decline.
The increase in income is extremely likely to be linked to injectors. |
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2588
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 13:57:09 -
[231] - Quote
mkint wrote:Mav Ahishatsu wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Just because CCP may have posted record profits in 2016 (SKINs, skill extractors, no more associated costs with Dust 514 and World of Darkness) does not mean F2P is actually a contributing factor. It does, however, mean that it was not a failure, therefore "Alphas and F2P Have Failed" is a factually inaccurate statement. Also, go here ( http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility) and look at the actual player count over the past five years. Notice how the player count increased to numbers that hadn't been seen since 2012 at the exact same time the game went F2P. Also, note the fact that the player count has remained above average in comparison to the 18 months prior. I watch those numbers pretty closely. After the f2p launch, there was no new upward momentum. Nobody going "hey, this is great, tell your friends" causing the numbers to gain an upward trend and continue upward. It was a single peak with a decline at approximately the same rate that it has been declining for the preceding several years. It's like people saw advertising, tried the game, decided it wasn't worth their time, and didn't ever come back or tell anybody about it. All trend graphs are about momentum, and the f2p peak didn't break the downward momentum at all, despite a 1-day peak. Of course the numbers are higher than they were before (but not higher than they were last year), you don't have to pay to log in now. Shoot, the "increase in revenue" could include an "increase in valuation" based on weird icelandic banking math (have yourself a read about icelandic banking, it's ridiculous.) And yeah, it could actually represent an increase in income and profits from EVE (except it probably doesn't) and f2p could still be a failure because it didn't turn the momentum of EVE's decline. The solution is pretty simple.
There is enough room in EVE for both PvE only and PvP play.
Its frankly ******** to ignore all the PvE only players out there because they're the biggest group of potential customers.
I can hear the screams of rage already from the people who think they're IRL Pirates however they have High Sec Wars (High), Low Sec PvP (Low), Faction PvP (High, Low), Null PvP (Null), Wormhole PvP (Null).
So two options to PvP in High, Two options to PvP in Low, 1 option each to PvP in Null and WH space.
Strangely with all of those options they still demand the absolute right to gank in high, its either because they're bad at PvP or they're scared of PvP where the opponent can shoot you first. Whichever it is is irrelevant. The only option for PvE only peeps is a High Sec with much reduced ganking and a stricter war dec system.
The result of that is you'll have a bunch of carebears in High Sec gnawing on tiny asteroids, missioning and so forth. For whatever reason that seems to infuriate some people, they need to get over it. The only time I think about High Sec is the occasional trip to pick something up that I need, otherwise my thoughts are only on null. I'm not sure why some obsess over what others are doing elsewhere in the game but there are mental people everywhere so I guess they're just mental.
With an influx of people who purely like PvE will come an influx of cash for CCP. That's all that matters in a thread regarding subs.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15350
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 14:19:43 -
[232] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is enough room in EVE for both PvE only and PvP play.
Its frankly ******** to ignore all the PvE only players out there because they're the biggest group of potential customers.
I can hear the screams of rage already from the people who think they're IRL Pirates however they have High Sec Wars (High), Low Sec PvP (Low), Faction PvP (High, Low), Null PvP (Null), Wormhole PvP (Null).
So two options to PvP in High, Two options to PvP in Low, 1 option each to PvP in Null and WH space.
Strangely with all of those options they still demand the absolute right to gank in high, its either because they're bad at PvP or they're scared of PvP where the opponent can shoot you first. Whichever it is is irrelevant. The only option for PvE only peeps is a High Sec with much reduced ganking and a stricter war dec system.
The result of that is you'll have a bunch of carebears in High Sec gnawing on tiny asteroids, missioning and so forth. For whatever reason that seems to infuriate some people, they need to get over it. The only time I think about High Sec is the occasional trip to pick something up that I need, otherwise my thoughts are only on null. I'm not sure why some obsess over what others are doing elsewhere in the game but there are mental people everywhere so I guess they're just mental.
With an influx of people who purely like PvE will come an influx of cash for CCP. That's all that matters in a thread regarding subs.
PVE has nothing to do with anything you are talking about. This idea that PVE players need protecting from PVP players isn't just stupid, it's insulting. Everyday legions of real EVE PVE players not only don't get ganked by gankers, they watch gankers explode while they fail, and those PVErs loot the gankers wreck.
And every year we get nerfed, because the weak minded "please protect me CCP" pve minority players convince CCP to add more and more safety. WE suffer for it, not the gankers, the gankers just adapt, but those of us who didn't need any hand holding watch all the fun ways to screw with gankers ripped out from under us. It's irritating.
CCp can make the game fun again by rolling back some of this mechanical safety and let people know the joys of figuring out how to deal with other people again, like we did for years before all these pop ups and safetys came about. EVE is a game, games are fun because of challenge, not hand holding. |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2588
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 14:23:40 -
[233] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is enough room in EVE for both PvE only and PvP play.
Its frankly ******** to ignore all the PvE only players out there because they're the biggest group of potential customers.
I can hear the screams of rage already from the people who think they're IRL Pirates however they have High Sec Wars (High), Low Sec PvP (Low), Faction PvP (High, Low), Null PvP (Null), Wormhole PvP (Null).
So two options to PvP in High, Two options to PvP in Low, 1 option each to PvP in Null and WH space.
Strangely with all of those options they still demand the absolute right to gank in high, its either because they're bad at PvP or they're scared of PvP where the opponent can shoot you first. Whichever it is is irrelevant. The only option for PvE only peeps is a High Sec with much reduced ganking and a stricter war dec system.
The result of that is you'll have a bunch of carebears in High Sec gnawing on tiny asteroids, missioning and so forth. For whatever reason that seems to infuriate some people, they need to get over it. The only time I think about High Sec is the occasional trip to pick something up that I need, otherwise my thoughts are only on null. I'm not sure why some obsess over what others are doing elsewhere in the game but there are mental people everywhere so I guess they're just mental.
With an influx of people who purely like PvE will come an influx of cash for CCP. That's all that matters in a thread regarding subs.
PVE has nothing to do with anything you are talking about. This idea that PVE players need protecting from PVP players isn't just stupid, it's insulting. Everyday legions of real EVE PVE players not only don't get ganked by gankers, they watch gankers explode while they fail, and those PVErs loot the gankers wreck. And every year we get nerfed, because the weak minded "please protect me CCP" pve minority players convince CCP to add more and more safety. WE suffer for it, not the gankers, the gankers just adapt, but those of us who didn't need any hand holding watch all the fun ways to screw with gankers ripped out from under us. It's irritating. CCp can make the game fun again by rolling back some of this mechanical safety and let people know the joys of figuring out how to deal with other people again, like we did for years before all these pop ups and safetys came about. EVE is a game, games are fun because of challenge, not hand holding. Heard all your rubbish before. War dec or gtfo of High into those 7000 systems. Yeah I know people can shoot back at you before your ship explodes to Concord but you'll get used to it - PvP = Player vs Player, Not Player Vs NPC Concord...
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
mkint
1587
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 15:03:50 -
[234] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is enough room in EVE for both PvE only and PvP play.
Its frankly ******** to ignore all the PvE only players out there because they're the biggest group of potential customers.
I can hear the screams of rage already from the people who think they're IRL Pirates however they have High Sec Wars (High), Low Sec PvP (Low), Faction PvP (High, Low), Null PvP (Null), Wormhole PvP (Null).
So two options to PvP in High, Two options to PvP in Low, 1 option each to PvP in Null and WH space.
Strangely with all of those options they still demand the absolute right to gank in high, its either because they're bad at PvP or they're scared of PvP where the opponent can shoot you first. Whichever it is is irrelevant. The only option for PvE only peeps is a High Sec with much reduced ganking and a stricter war dec system.
The result of that is you'll have a bunch of carebears in High Sec gnawing on tiny asteroids, missioning and so forth. For whatever reason that seems to infuriate some people, they need to get over it. The only time I think about High Sec is the occasional trip to pick something up that I need, otherwise my thoughts are only on null. I'm not sure why some obsess over what others are doing elsewhere in the game but there are mental people everywhere so I guess they're just mental.
With an influx of people who purely like PvE will come an influx of cash for CCP. That's all that matters in a thread regarding subs.
PVE has nothing to do with anything you are talking about. This idea that PVE players need protecting from PVP players isn't just stupid, it's insulting. Everyday legions of real EVE PVE players not only don't get ganked by gankers, they watch gankers explode while they fail, and those PVErs loot the gankers wreck. And every year we get nerfed, because the weak minded "please protect me CCP" pve minority players convince CCP to add more and more safety. WE suffer for it, not the gankers, the gankers just adapt, but those of us who didn't need any hand holding watch all the fun ways to screw with gankers ripped out from under us. It's irritating. CCp can make the game fun again by rolling back some of this mechanical safety and let people know the joys of figuring out how to deal with other people again, like we did for years before all these pop ups and safetys came about. EVE is a game, games are fun because of challenge, not hand holding. Heard all your rubbish before. War dec or gtfo of High into those 7000 systems. Yeah I know people can shoot back at you before your ship explodes to Concord but you'll get used to it - PvP = Player vs Player, Not Player Vs NPC Concord... You really don't know what you're talking about. Jenn is a PVEer. You didn't read the post obviously. Jenn is mad because the PVEer's tools to deal with gankers have been reduced in the name of "safety."
The appeal of EVE never has been, nor ever will be its PVE content. There are too many games out there that are 100% PVE. They are called single player and have existed since a 1950's radar screen was adapted to be the first video game. The value of EVE's PVE is to lead to interesting experiences. The unscripted stuff with unpredictable interactions in meaningful ways with real people. Making PVE even more boring will not lead to new subscriptions.
My opinion is that pretty much every passionate dichotomy that pops up in this community is tedious and pointless. Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15350
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 15:15:46 -
[235] - Quote
mkint wrote:Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing.
This is why EVE did better when it was "here is a space ship, **** you". How some of these people can't understand that is beyond me.
The 'safety' people honestly think more safety is the answer. They are making the same kind of mistake modern day parents make, ie "if i keep my child safe enough, they will be ok". What they end up with is a bunch of people who can't function in the adult world and who need their participation trophies to feel special.
I don't think people like that are capable of changing their ways though, when your whole self image is built around "hey, look at what a good person I am, I oppose space tyranny in a video game", there's just no helping it |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2588
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 15:45:54 -
[236] - Quote
mkint wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is enough room in EVE for both PvE only and PvP play.
Its frankly ******** to ignore all the PvE only players out there because they're the biggest group of potential customers.
I can hear the screams of rage already from the people who think they're IRL Pirates however they have High Sec Wars (High), Low Sec PvP (Low), Faction PvP (High, Low), Null PvP (Null), Wormhole PvP (Null).
So two options to PvP in High, Two options to PvP in Low, 1 option each to PvP in Null and WH space.
Strangely with all of those options they still demand the absolute right to gank in high, its either because they're bad at PvP or they're scared of PvP where the opponent can shoot you first. Whichever it is is irrelevant. The only option for PvE only peeps is a High Sec with much reduced ganking and a stricter war dec system.
The result of that is you'll have a bunch of carebears in High Sec gnawing on tiny asteroids, missioning and so forth. For whatever reason that seems to infuriate some people, they need to get over it. The only time I think about High Sec is the occasional trip to pick something up that I need, otherwise my thoughts are only on null. I'm not sure why some obsess over what others are doing elsewhere in the game but there are mental people everywhere so I guess they're just mental.
With an influx of people who purely like PvE will come an influx of cash for CCP. That's all that matters in a thread regarding subs.
PVE has nothing to do with anything you are talking about. This idea that PVE players need protecting from PVP players isn't just stupid, it's insulting. Everyday legions of real EVE PVE players not only don't get ganked by gankers, they watch gankers explode while they fail, and those PVErs loot the gankers wreck. And every year we get nerfed, because the weak minded "please protect me CCP" pve minority players convince CCP to add more and more safety. WE suffer for it, not the gankers, the gankers just adapt, but those of us who didn't need any hand holding watch all the fun ways to screw with gankers ripped out from under us. It's irritating. CCp can make the game fun again by rolling back some of this mechanical safety and let people know the joys of figuring out how to deal with other people again, like we did for years before all these pop ups and safetys came about. EVE is a game, games are fun because of challenge, not hand holding. Heard all your rubbish before. War dec or gtfo of High into those 7000 systems. Yeah I know people can shoot back at you before your ship explodes to Concord but you'll get used to it - PvP = Player vs Player, Not Player Vs NPC Concord... You really don't know what you're talking about. Jenn is a PVEer. You didn't read the post obviously. Jenn is mad because the PVEer's tools to deal with gankers have been reduced in the name of "safety." The appeal of EVE never has been, nor ever will be its PVE content. There are too many games out there that are 100% PVE. They are called single player and have existed since a 1950's radar screen was adapted to be the first video game. The value of EVE's PVE is to lead to interesting experiences. The unscripted stuff with unpredictable interactions in meaningful ways with real people. Making PVE even more boring will not lead to new subscriptions. My opinion is that pretty much every passionate dichotomy that pops up in this community is tedious and pointless. Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing. I know exactly what I'm talking about - I have encountered the clueless dweeb many many times.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15352
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 16:00:24 -
[237] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: I know exactly what I'm talking about - I have encountered the clueless dweeb many many times.
It's 1600 EVE time, it's it time for your to rage quit and promise (ie lie about) deleting your toons again?
|
HindSight Pergatory
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 16:13:28 -
[238] - Quote
I have no issue with these ideas, save one. Removing hi sec incursions entirely isn't an option. It only serves to feed the blood-thirsty hardcore PVPers and you essentially eliminate a group friendly aspect of the game for the casual player. (I live in Null so hi-sec incursions don't affect me much) <---keep that in mind when preparing your rebuttal). While it may serve to increase ship and module sales, it would alienate many players. |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 16:35:20 -
[239] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:mkint wrote:Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing. This is why EVE did better when it was "here is a space ship, **** you". How some of these people can't understand that is beyond me. The 'safety' people honestly think more safety is the answer. They are making the same kind of mistake modern day parents make, ie "if i keep my child safe enough, they will be ok". What they end up with is a bunch of people who can't function in the adult world and who need their participation trophies to feel special. I don't think people like that are capable of changing their ways though, when your whole self image is built around "hey, look at what a good person I am, I oppose space tyranny in a video game", there's just no helping it
However even with a certain amount of hands off parenting you don't just abandon them to any and all dangers. I don't think that removing the danger is necessarily the answer though - maybe giving them the tools to understand the danger might help. |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2588
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 16:48:25 -
[240] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: I know exactly what I'm talking about - I have encountered the clueless dweeb many many times.
It's 1600 EVE time, isn't it time for your daily rage quit and promise (ie lie about) deleting your toons again? Tommorow maybe :)
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28023
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 17:09:00 -
[241] - Quote
3rd time lucky... I won't be holding my breath.
Quote: If subscribers don't want to PvP why would you force them to or have them quit.
If subscribers don't want to PvP, why are they playing a game that is first and foremost a PvP game?
Lets not forget that PvP in Eve isn't limited to shooting each other in the face.
Quote:Like I said there are 7000 systems designed for PvP. 8000 if you declare war. Wrong, every system in Eve is designed for PvP, CCP have specifically created mechanics such as crimewatch to facilitate PvP being possible in every single one of the player accessible systems.
Quote: The only way to increase sub's is to target non pvprs . its a no brainer which doesn't bode well for the nay sayers. Yeah great idea, CCP should dumb the game down to the extent where hisec is essentially a PvE realm and the game becomes just another generic MMO set in space, and is doomed to fail like all the other spaceship games that were going to kill Eve.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3190
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 17:19:47 -
[242] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:mkint wrote:Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing. This is why EVE did better when it was "here is a space ship, **** you". How some of these people can't understand that is beyond me. The 'safety' people honestly think more safety is the answer. They are making the same kind of mistake modern day parents make, ie "if i keep my child safe enough, they will be ok". What they end up with is a bunch of people who can't function in the adult world and who need their participation trophies to feel special. I don't think people like that are capable of changing their ways though, when your whole self image is built around "hey, look at what a good person I am, I oppose space tyranny in a video game", there's just no helping it
I want your opinion on something following this. Do you think there is opportunity to raise subs in the "here is a ship now **** you" player market at this point? Since no matter how we slice it, EVE need to renew it's subscriber base at least as fast as it lose subs to stay as active as it is now. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15353
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 17:28:35 -
[243] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:mkint wrote:Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing. This is why EVE did better when it was "here is a space ship, **** you". How some of these people can't understand that is beyond me. The 'safety' people honestly think more safety is the answer. They are making the same kind of mistake modern day parents make, ie "if i keep my child safe enough, they will be ok". What they end up with is a bunch of people who can't function in the adult world and who need their participation trophies to feel special. I don't think people like that are capable of changing their ways though, when your whole self image is built around "hey, look at what a good person I am, I oppose space tyranny in a video game", there's just no helping it I want your opinion on something following this. Do you think there is opportunity to raise subs in the "here is a ship now **** you" player market at this point? Since no matter how we slice it, EVE need to renew it's subscriber base at least as fast as it lose subs to stay as active as it is now.
I think there are un-tapped people who like games that treat them like adults, yes. Even in this day and age, there are people who like a challenge.
No I can't say for certain that CCP backing off some of the hand holding will make a difference at this point, but who knows. CCPs big mistake imo was trying to expand EVE out of it's niche rather than just trying to make it the best niche game it could be and making some separate mainstream offerings for people who want that.
Seems like business wise they are on the right track with Phoenix and maybe Nova and the other things they are selling.
|
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
523
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 17:43:46 -
[244] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Seems like business wise they are on the right track with Phoenix and maybe Nova and the other things they are selling.
who give a damn Fu.ck about Nova and Phoenix LUL
all we care is EvE! legit |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3190
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 18:06:45 -
[245] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Seems like business wise they are on the right track with Phoenix and maybe Nova and the other things they are selling.
who give a damn Fu.ck about Nova and Phoenix LUL all we care is EvE! legit
A single product protfolio is kinda bad tho. As long as they run on one income source, they are always withing one real bad expansion of being in major troubles. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3190
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 18:09:30 -
[246] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:mkint wrote:Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing. This is why EVE did better when it was "here is a space ship, **** you". How some of these people can't understand that is beyond me. The 'safety' people honestly think more safety is the answer. They are making the same kind of mistake modern day parents make, ie "if i keep my child safe enough, they will be ok". What they end up with is a bunch of people who can't function in the adult world and who need their participation trophies to feel special. I don't think people like that are capable of changing their ways though, when your whole self image is built around "hey, look at what a good person I am, I oppose space tyranny in a video game", there's just no helping it I want your opinion on something following this. Do you think there is opportunity to raise subs in the "here is a ship now **** you" player market at this point? Since no matter how we slice it, EVE need to renew it's subscriber base at least as fast as it lose subs to stay as active as it is now. I think there are un-tapped people who like games that treat them like adults, yes. Even in this day and age, there are people who like a challenge. No I can't say for certain that CCP backing off some of the hand holding will make a difference at this point, but who knows. CCPs big mistake imo was trying to expand EVE out of it's niche rather than just trying to make it the best niche game it could be and making some separate mainstream offerings for people who want that. Seems like business wise they are on the right track with Phoenix and maybe Nova and the other things they are selling.
Well they only really have one product and that probably weighted in the balance. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
524
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 18:13:58 -
[247] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Seems like business wise they are on the right track with Phoenix and maybe Nova and the other things they are selling.
who give a damn Fu.ck about Nova and Phoenix LUL all we care is EvE! legit A single product protfolio is kinda bad tho. As long as they run on one income source, they are always withing one real bad expansion of being in major troubles.
i perfectly know that. but keep doing errors like dust etc.... i mean they are clearly investing eve's income in other games.... do you think that customers don't notice that?
if they keep getting flops like dust then... not only they'll lose those new games... but even EvE due to not enough investiments to keep it up due to competition
and yea... generally we can only watch right? not our business sadly |
Torin Corax
Game of Roams
281
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 18:15:34 -
[248] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
A single product protfolio is kinda bad tho. As long as they run on one income source, they are always withing one real bad expansion of being in major troubles.
To be fair, there have been some bad expansions...but Eve is still here. Diversification is fine, hard to find a business that isn't doing this nowadays. As long as Eve remains the "Flagship" it's no skin off my nose.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8245
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 23:05:17 -
[249] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
Wow...so you had too respond to me twice and yet you keep getting it wrong.
As an economist I will say this, You do not understand the game. That what we see is only the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is not seen it is below the water line. When you say suicide ganking is easy that is simply not true. It is not like some random group of players decide to do it. No, instead it is Miniluv, CODE. or some other group. A group that has an SRP, comms, FCs, a logistics operation to ensure there are ships in place, etc. All of that you want to discount as meaningless and of zero cost. This makes you a liar...a despicably lying douche bag. And despite several rounds of nerfs to ganking here you are again saying that more nerfs are needed. And you are oblivious to the fact that CCP keeps on boning you in the butt. For every "nerf" they give you they also do you in the butt like the little bitches you are. Please CCP nerf ganking and do me in the butt again and again so I know my place as the dirty little tart I am. That is what you are Infinity Ziona. CCP's dirty little laughing stock of a butt **** that they throw out on the garbage heap after the fun of Fanfest. And you keep crawling back to them again and again, and they keep treating you like the cheap whore that you are. :) In Desperation ignore the facts and go spazy ad hominem. Love it. Post more xx
It's Teckos and he already had a meltdown on a thread like this before. Poor fellow. There's a lot that Teckos and I have in common except I beat my demons instead of becoming one.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Doris Laur
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2017.03.13 23:20:42 -
[250] - Quote
"Alphas and F2P have failed."
Really, I think we are doing very well, thank you very much. It's working as intended. |
|
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2600
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 00:32:45 -
[251] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
Wow...so you had too respond to me twice and yet you keep getting it wrong.
As an economist I will say this, You do not understand the game. That what we see is only the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is not seen it is below the water line. When you say suicide ganking is easy that is simply not true. It is not like some random group of players decide to do it. No, instead it is Miniluv, CODE. or some other group. A group that has an SRP, comms, FCs, a logistics operation to ensure there are ships in place, etc. All of that you want to discount as meaningless and of zero cost. This makes you a liar...a despicably lying douche bag. And despite several rounds of nerfs to ganking here you are again saying that more nerfs are needed. And you are oblivious to the fact that CCP keeps on boning you in the butt. For every "nerf" they give you they also do you in the butt like the little bitches you are. Please CCP nerf ganking and do me in the butt again and again so I know my place as the dirty little tart I am. That is what you are Infinity Ziona. CCP's dirty little laughing stock of a butt **** that they throw out on the garbage heap after the fun of Fanfest. And you keep crawling back to them again and again, and they keep treating you like the cheap whore that you are. :) In Desperation ignore the facts and go spazy ad hominem. Love it. Post more xx It's Teckos and he already had a meltdown on a thread like this before. Poor fellow. There's a lot that Teckos and I have in common except I beat my demons instead of becoming one. Notably this thread appears to touch on the topic of the "safety of highsec" and the PVP across the board from highsec to null, with the usual argument of that PVP. I just returned from a business trip to Germany where I get to be a user of the train systems there, and also hear of some shenanigans going on, such as an ax attack. Admittedly the line running from say Mannheim to Frankfurt was NOT camped with angry fellows (religious or not) looking to get all stabby or axy. Why? Because those who do it do it one time. That's why. So we have a problem here where the sov/PVP/risk-reward zones are a kind of "wild wild west" but highsec is a broken wild west where the bad guys are back in 15 minutes to keep doing it again. What, ultimately, is the difference? Well in the civilized world you pay a lot of money in taxes. If you work in say a city that is relatively safe and you can expect your stuff to be where you leave it if you take your eyes off it for a minute, you are going to pay goodly sums in taxes. But if you want to make some bank out in the middle of nowhere and rake in all that you want from your efforts, someone can lay a bullet into your brain stem with a sniper rig and take all your stuff. The difference is that the person who does that in the city is going to be hard pressed to do it again if they get return fire or put in a cage. See the difference? Rigged game and the HTFU crowd banks their e-peen on it. Potential players see that and go somewhere else. Were it up to meGäó I would make highsec very safe: no gate activations and no docking rights for criminals, at any time, any place. Criminals' clone vats automatically plunked to lowsec too. So there. But the taxes of highsec would get VERY high. Like Negan level "half your sh!t". So if someone wants to suck little rocks all day for pesos or multibox missions for a month to afford one PLEX, then there is no need to brand them a carebear and make them suffer: the tax rate makes them suffer. But there won't be so many criminals either and the noobs can incubate. Of course such a move goes against the fox in the henhouse mindset of the community... or what's left of it. It's nice to be able to log in for free and sell stuff off. Agreed. You don't even need to tax. PvE only means are not competing in PvP so their isk has no bearing on the PvP scene. Who really cares if some guy in high has every ship in the game filled with purples in his hanger and a trillion isk in his wallet. All that means is higher prices in high sec which is what null needs to create its own industry.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1571
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 00:48:11 -
[252] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:But if you want to make some bank out in the middle of nowhere and rake in all that you want from your efforts, someone can lay a bullet into your brain stem with a sniper rig and take all your stuff.
The difference is that the person who does that in the city is going to be hard pressed to do it again if they get return fire or put in a cage. If you want to take a ridiculous real world comparison, then do it all the way.
No one is more remote than being in space. Certainly far more remote than the middle of nowhere on Earth where someone might be able to put a bullet in your brain stem (like really...the mentality of carebears).
That doesn't even compare to the remoteness of space in the slightest, because out in space you aren't in Frankfurt, or any other city. You'e in a vacuum (at least one with lots of water in it).
Alternatively, just take the much more reasonable view that this isn't RL, it's just a game. It's fine to shoot someone or be shot at anywhere, because it's just a game.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8246
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 01:39:39 -
[253] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
Wow...so you had too respond to me twice and yet you keep getting it wrong.
As an economist I will say this, You do not understand the game. That what we see is only the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is not seen it is below the water line. When you say suicide ganking is easy that is simply not true. It is not like some random group of players decide to do it. No, instead it is Miniluv, CODE. or some other group. A group that has an SRP, comms, FCs, a logistics operation to ensure there are ships in place, etc. All of that you want to discount as meaningless and of zero cost. This makes you a liar...a despicably lying douche bag. And despite several rounds of nerfs to ganking here you are again saying that more nerfs are needed. And you are oblivious to the fact that CCP keeps on boning you in the butt. For every "nerf" they give you they also do you in the butt like the little bitches you are. Please CCP nerf ganking and do me in the butt again and again so I know my place as the dirty little tart I am. That is what you are Infinity Ziona. CCP's dirty little laughing stock of a butt **** that they throw out on the garbage heap after the fun of Fanfest. And you keep crawling back to them again and again, and they keep treating you like the cheap whore that you are. :) In Desperation ignore the facts and go spazy ad hominem. Love it. Post more xx It's Teckos and he already had a meltdown on a thread like this before. Poor fellow. There's a lot that Teckos and I have in common except I beat my demons instead of becoming one. Notably this thread appears to touch on the topic of the "safety of highsec" and the PVP across the board from highsec to null, with the usual argument of that PVP. I just returned from a business trip to Germany where I get to be a user of the train systems there, and also hear of some shenanigans going on, such as an ax attack. Admittedly the line running from say Mannheim to Frankfurt was NOT camped with angry fellows (religious or not) looking to get all stabby or axy. Why? Because those who do it do it one time. That's why. So we have a problem here where the sov/PVP/risk-reward zones are a kind of "wild wild west" but highsec is a broken wild west where the bad guys are back in 15 minutes to keep doing it again. What, ultimately, is the difference? Well in the civilized world you pay a lot of money in taxes. If you work in say a city that is relatively safe and you can expect your stuff to be where you leave it if you take your eyes off it for a minute, you are going to pay goodly sums in taxes. But if you want to make some bank out in the middle of nowhere and rake in all that you want from your efforts, someone can lay a bullet into your brain stem with a sniper rig and take all your stuff. The difference is that the person who does that in the city is going to be hard pressed to do it again if they get return fire or put in a cage. See the difference? Rigged game and the HTFU crowd banks their e-peen on it. Potential players see that and go somewhere else. Were it up to meGäó I would make highsec very safe: no gate activations and no docking rights for criminals, at any time, any place. Criminals' clone vats automatically plunked to lowsec too. So there. But the taxes of highsec would get VERY high. Like Negan level "half your sh!t". So if someone wants to suck little rocks all day for pesos or multibox missions for a month to afford one PLEX, then there is no need to brand them a carebear and make them suffer: the tax rate makes them suffer. But there won't be so many criminals either and the noobs can incubate. Of course such a move goes against the fox in the henhouse mindset of the community... or what's left of it. It's nice to be able to log in for free and sell stuff off. Agreed. You don't even need to tax. PvE only means are not competing in PvP so their isk has no bearing on the PvP scene. Who really cares if some guy in high has every ship in the game filled with purples in his hanger and a trillion isk in his wallet. All that means is higher prices in high sec which is what null needs to create its own industry.
True dat. Inflation is a tax as well.
Imagine if highsec had tariffs on all those goods moving through there to pay for all that policing and all that keeping baddies out?
NAHHHHH what's half of (what's left of) the player base going to do without Jita?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8246
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 01:43:33 -
[254] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:But if you want to make some bank out in the middle of nowhere and rake in all that you want from your efforts, someone can lay a bullet into your brain stem with a sniper rig and take all your stuff.
The difference is that the person who does that in the city is going to be hard pressed to do it again if they get return fire or put in a cage. If you want to take a ridiculous real world comparison, then do it all the way. No one is more remote than being in space. Certainly far more remote than the middle of nowhere on Earth where someone might be able to put a bullet in your brain stem (like really...the mentality of carebears). That doesn't even compare to the remoteness of space in the slightest, because out in space you aren't in Frankfurt, or any other city. You'e in a vacuum (at least one with lots of water in it). Alternatively, just take the much more reasonable view that this isn't RL, it's just a game. It's fine to shoot someone or be shot at anywhere, because it's just a game.
But the "jollies" of the HTFU and gank crowd is real. Why not take it all the way and make any out of game blog (out of character pointing and laughing at carebears and miners when you wind them up, no more E1, etc) against the rules?
See how that works? BTW I knew you would respond with that. Your type is predictable as usual. I expect Teckos to lose sleep over my idea in the same modus of a scab being irresistible.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1571
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 02:05:48 -
[255] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:But the "jollies" of the HTFU and gank crowd is real. Why not take it all the way and make any out of game blog (out of character pointing and laughing at carebears and miners when you wind them up, no more E1, etc) against the rules?
See how that works? BTW I knew you would respond with that. Your type is predictable as usual. I expect Teckos to lose sleep over my idea in the same modus of a scab being irresistible.
Sure. Make all in game abuse automatically permanently bannable to.
The Carebear threats that relate out of game (eg. wishes that people die, that their families will be hunted, etc.), make all those Carebears automatically kicked from the game forever.
Do that and none of the 'winding up' you cry about can ever happen, because everyone left will be people able to control their emotions.
Then make all out of game blogs (and I assume you also mean other forms of out of game communication too, not just blogs) against the rules.
I know which group will whinge the loudest about all that...as always, the Carebears.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
54
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 02:15:22 -
[256] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:mkint wrote:Safety is a non-issue. Getting people engaged is the issue, that's where the game has been failing. This is why EVE did better when it was "here is a space ship, **** you". How some of these people can't understand that is beyond me. The 'safety' people honestly think more safety is the answer. They are making the same kind of mistake modern day parents make, ie "if i keep my child safe enough, they will be ok". What they end up with is a bunch of people who can't function in the adult world and who need their participation trophies to feel special. I don't think people like that are capable of changing their ways though, when your whole self image is built around "hey, look at what a good person I am, I oppose space tyranny in a video game", there's just no helping it I want your opinion on something following this. Do you think there is opportunity to raise subs in the "here is a ship now **** you" player market at this point? Since no matter how we slice it, EVE need to renew it's subscriber base at least as fast as it lose subs to stay as active as it is now.
The problem Eve has with subscriptions is the same problem many games have.... the age.
This has nothing to do with graphics or anything like that... it's how MMO's mature.
When a game starts, people are joining as they learn about it. It often starts slow and then gets bigger and bigger as people hear about a "cool new game".
Then, people start reaching the "end game". I know... people say "eve has no end game"... well there are "end ships". I remember what a big deal the first Titans were (and the first Titan kill). When people reach the end-game (or start getting close in the case of skills and ships for EVE) the developers have to start adding content for the end game. In other games it's raising the level cap and pushing the end game further out (making what was the end game now a "mid game" place). In EVE it's adding new ships and skills... from T2's to Titans to T3's. Eventually the gap gets so big it intimidates new players... and this starts the decline in this type of game.
Now Eve has actually handled this better than most games I've seen (which is why it still is around)... but it's still there. You want to be a Titan Pilot? Train for 3-4 years or spend a LOT of money on skill injectors.
I'm not saying this is bad... it's just the lifecycle of a MMORPG. All of them reward those who've been active for a long time. But that eventually creates a gap that tends to make it tough to get new players. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that can be done. I think the unlimited trial setup has brought some players who left for a time back (like myself). But no amount of "new player benefits" is going to erase the fact that many toons have 10-15 years of training and asset accumulation on them. There are a large number of people who don't want to jump on board with a game when they feel like they're that far "behind". |
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2601
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 03:00:17 -
[257] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:But if you want to make some bank out in the middle of nowhere and rake in all that you want from your efforts, someone can lay a bullet into your brain stem with a sniper rig and take all your stuff.
The difference is that the person who does that in the city is going to be hard pressed to do it again if they get return fire or put in a cage. If you want to take a ridiculous real world comparison, then do it all the way. No one is more remote than being in space. Certainly far more remote than the middle of nowhere on Earth where someone might be able to put a bullet in your brain stem (like really...the mentality of carebears). That doesn't even compare to the remoteness of space in the slightest, because out in space you aren't in Frankfurt, or any other city. You'e in a vacuum (at least one with lots of water in it). Alternatively, just take the much more reasonable view that this isn't RL, it's just a game. It's fine to shoot someone or be shot at anywhere, because it's just a game. But the "jollies" of the HTFU and gank crowd is real. Why not take it all the way and make any out of game blog (out of character pointing and laughing at carebears and miners when you wind them up, no more E1, etc) against the rules? See how that works? BTW I knew you would respond with that. Your type is predictable as usual. I expect Teckos to lose sleep over my idea in the same modus of a scab being irresistible. The other thing to that comment is its much more reasonable given this is not RL to use the 7,000 pure PvP systems to PvP in. Apart from war decs leave the people who don't want to PvP alone in their 1/7 of the space you have, go play with your capitals, citidels and all the other rewards you get for PvP'ing in those 7,000 systems. The more people that are paying IRL money to play the game the more money CCP gets and the more toys and systems that get added. Since its a game it really shouldn't be bothering people that some choose the carebear life, at least not to the extent it seems to bother some people in this thread, surely this is just a sideline thing you do in your greater life and not your greater life.... I hope.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6225
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 04:34:13 -
[258] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
The problem Eve has with subscriptions is the same problem many games have.... the age.
This has nothing to do with graphics or anything like that... it's how MMO's mature.
When a game starts, people are joining as they learn about it. It often starts slow and then gets bigger and bigger as people hear about a "cool new game".
Actually, what you are describing is true of many products, this pattern has a name: Bass Diffusion.
At first the growth is exponential, then it tapers off to be logarithmic. The problem is that not only has growth tapered off people have left. As to why they have left is open to much speculation. I am in the camp of "people have left because CCP has been making the game less dangerous, less interesting." Not sure what the other side's argument is since they really haven't articulated one. Instead they argue the future of the game is in getting people who are not into PvP to play the game and drastically change the game to suit these new potential customers.
Quote:Then, people start reaching the "end game". I know... people say "eve has no end game"... well there are "end ships". I remember what a big deal the first Titans were (and the first Titan kill). When people reach the end-game (or start getting close in the case of skills and ships for EVE) the developers have to start adding content for the end game. In other games it's raising the level cap and pushing the end game further out (making what was the end game now a "mid game" place). In EVE it's adding new ships and skills... from T2's to Titans to T3's. Eventually the gap gets so big it intimidates new players... and this starts the decline in this type of game.
I tend to discount the skill gap argument. Yes, I have alot of SP. But whenever I am in a given ship the SP that apply to that ship and the modules are all that matter. And those SP might be 10-15 million SP. Which is still alot, but it is not a giant gap when comparing my 146 million SP to some other guys 26 million SP.
Quote:Now Eve has actually handled this better than most games I've seen (which is why it still is around)... but it's still there. You want to be a Titan Pilot? Train for 3-4 years or spend a LOT of money on skill injectors.
Not only do SP extractors/injectors allow for players to catch up who really want too, it also creates an SP sink reducing the over all pool of SP in the game.
Quote:I'm not saying this is bad... it's just the lifecycle of a MMORPG. All of them reward those who've been active for a long time. But that eventually creates a gap that tends to make it tough to get new players. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that can be done. I think the unlimited trial setup has brought some players who left for a time back (like myself). But no amount of "new player benefits" is going to erase the fact that many toons have 10-15 years of training and asset accumulation on them. There are a large number of people who don't want to jump on board with a game when they feel like they're that far "behind".
First off many of those players with 10+ years of time in game aren't playing anymore. If one decides, "I'm not going to play because I can never catch that tiny fraction who are still playing and have been for a long time..." well I'm thinking they wouldn't stay anyways. Further, with SP extractors/injectors new players can close that SP gap faster if they want too and have the RL ISK. Worrying that some player with 200+ million SP is going to come across you and beat you is like worrying about running into a grizzly bear in Time's Square. And if you really think it might be likely, grabe 4-5 friends and bone him.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 04:53:38 -
[259] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:The other thing to that comment is its much more reasonable given this is not RL to use the 7,000 pure PvP systems to PvP in. Apart from war decs leave the people who don't want to PvP alone in their 1/7 of the space you have, go play with your capitals, citidels and all the other rewards you get for PvP'ing in those 7,000 systems. The more people that are paying IRL money to play the game the more money CCP gets and the more toys and systems that get added. Since its a game it really shouldn't be bothering people that some choose the carebear life, at least not to the extent it seems to bother some people in this thread, surely this is just a sideline thing you do in your greater life and not your greater life.... I hope. Someone hasn't been exploring in hisec. What do you call it when you get in a race to kill the last rat in a hisec anom? It's a contest, and most definitely PvP, even if you and the other guy both (usually) leave with your ships.
Do we want to take that out too? |
morion
Lighting Build
200
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 05:03:44 -
[260] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Who really cares if some guy in high has every ship in the game filled with purples in his hanger (and a trillion isk in his wallet. All that means is higher prices in high sec) which is what null needs to create its own industry.
a trillion isk in there wallet that is "not" in circulation results in "lower prices"
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6225
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Posted - 2017.03.14 06:35:01 -
[261] - Quote
morion wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Who really cares if some guy in high has every ship in the game filled with purples in his hanger (and a trillion isk in his wallet. All that means is higher prices in high sec) which is what null needs to create its own industry. a trillion isk in there wallet that is "not" in circulation results in "lower prices" A model built of "door nobs" having a hand full of purple loot and buckets of isk only spells deflation. I'm moor Stick approach to easy logistics to incentivize / force null industry. Coupled with "not passive" >low yield< high security moon mining.
Somebody might want to clue in Infinity what CCP Quant means by active ISK delta. It is why the money supply is actually shrinking. And when you look at the various price indices they are declining. And keep in mind that CCP Quant is, unfortunately, using a chained Laspeyres index which, if anything, has an upwards bias as a measure of inflation. It would be better if CCP Quant were to switch to a superlative index.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Blyds Duna
Nex Omen
0
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Posted - 2017.03.14 07:40:36 -
[262] - Quote
I just started to read this Discussion and i skiped a few pages ( i just came from work a bit tiered etc. i promise to read all 14 pages in total later after a good sleep), let me introduce my self a bit so you know where i am coming from, i played eve a few years ago, long long time ago, at the time Band of Brothers was a major issue the, some may know some haven't a bloody clue, i played on one of my brothers alt account and helped him with L4-5 missions. and at some point he stoped playing due to money or time. i came back 2-3 ears played from now 2-3 months i was at a university then so ya time and money for me to, cam back now. I played a lot of games most of them free online, a few games i paid for random stuff in the games shops, most of this games died or they have good content that make people play, EVE, our PRIDE and JOY is a complicated game, more or less depending on the person, I came back NOT AS A ALPHA but as a SUB because EVE is worth every cent for me, but that dosen't mean its for every one. And in this time and age that we are now is a free for all fun fest of good free to play games that have it going for them due to better graphics, story's, lore etc you name it, so dose EVE and OMG look at the EVE history WTF did i miss, i feel ashamed o saying this to all you guys that played it for far longer them me but what to i read: CCP THIS, CCP THAT, THEY SUCK, EVE IS DEAD etc.
One thing that EVE has more the any MMORPG on this fuking earth, IS THE PLAYERS HISTORY, YOUR HISTORY.
Can you not lift a finger and help. It's not just CCP's time and money any more, It's yours too, It's gone be mine too.
Heres what i think wood be a good idia, US, the Players that lived the Glory days of Eve rbing to Light the JOY and the Happiness that CCP has so long given us in the this Game. Invite them in your corporations, make so they have a lot of fun that not that they will feel compelled but more like the will beg CCP with SUB's to make EVE go to a higher level of game play.
So how about it, are you willing to do something as a Proud player of this Wonderful, Complex, Captivating game. or are you going to stay there and ***** about it.
Sorry for my vulgarity. |
Acher0n Hades
Ze One Man Show
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 10:35:20 -
[263] - Quote
Sun is shining, the weather is sweet Make you want to move your dancing feet
No more spaceships, here I am Want you to know ya, can you understand?
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2602
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 10:54:25 -
[264] - Quote
morion wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Who really cares if some guy in high has every ship in the game filled with purples in his hanger (and a trillion isk in his wallet. All that means is higher prices in high sec) which is what null needs to create its own industry. a trillion isk in there wallet that is "not" in circulation results in "lower prices" A model built of "door nobs" having a hand full of purple loot and buckets of isk only spells deflation. I'm moor Stick approach to easy logistics to incentivize / force null industry. Coupled with "not passive" >low yield< high security moon mining. You assume they're not buying things like injectors, skins, aurum and anything else that carebears would be buying with that trillion. Carebears buy it all they're much bigger spenders then PvPrs in terms of novelty items.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Jasmine Deer
Perkone Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 11:14:50 -
[265] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote: I know which group will whinge the loudest about all that...as always, the Carebears.
The most copious whinging if measured in terms of number of posts or words written in those posts is attributable to people whinging about whinging carebears.
Now I have to go back to the top of the page and see if I can make sense of that "Make Eve Great Again" post. |
ApexDynamo
Hazardous Wormhole Rebels
10
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 11:56:15 -
[266] - Quote
If anything ccp should bring back the old torp effects those were pretty cool i liked those :) |
Salvos Rhoska
2418
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 12:25:56 -
[267] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote: I know which group will whinge the loudest about all that...as always, the Carebears.
Shae always conveniently forgets Nullbears.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
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lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
83
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Posted - 2017.03.14 12:40:00 -
[268] - Quote
Blyds Duna wrote:I just started to read this Discussion and i skiped a few pages ( i just came from work a bit tiered etc. i promise to read all 14 pages in total later after a good sleep), let me introduce my self a bit so you know where i am coming from, i played eve a few years ago, long long time ago, at the time Band of Brothers was a major issue the, some may know some haven't a bloody clue, i played on one of my brothers alt account and helped him with L4-5 missions. and at some point he stoped playing due to money or time. i came back 2-3 ears played from now 2-3 months i was at a university then so ya time and money for me to, cam back now. I played a lot of games most of them free online, a few games i paid for random stuff in the games shops, most of this games died or they have good content that make people play, EVE, our PRIDE and JOY is a complicated game, more or less depending on the person, I came back NOT AS A ALPHA but as a SUB because EVE is worth every cent for me, but that dosen't mean its for every one. And in this time and age that we are now is a free for all fun fest of good free to play games that have it going for them due to better graphics, story's, lore etc you name it, so dose EVE and OMG look at the EVE history WTF did i miss, i feel ashamed o saying this to all you guys that played it for far longer them me but what to i read: CCP THIS, CCP THAT, THEY SUCK, EVE IS DEAD etc.
One thing that EVE has more the any MMORPG on this fuking earth, IS THE PLAYERS HISTORY, YOUR HISTORY.
Can you not lift a finger and help. It's not just CCP's time and money any more, It's yours too, It's gone be mine too.
Heres what i think wood be a good idia, US, the Players that lived the Glory days of Eve rbing to Light the JOY and the Happiness that CCP has so long given us in the this Game. Invite them in your corporations, make so they have a lot of fun that not that they will feel compelled but more like the will beg CCP with SUB's to make EVE go to a higher level of game play.
So how about it, are you willing to do something as a Proud player of this Wonderful, Complex, Captivating game. or are you going to stay there and ***** about it.
Sorry for my vulgarity.
so whats your point?
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Salvos Rhoska
2418
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Posted - 2017.03.14 12:47:06 -
[269] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:so whats your point? If I may attempt a translation.
I think he wants there to be an aire of excitement, enthusiasm and encouragement in and about EVE as he remembers being the case once upon a time.
Perhaps also that we focus more on what we can do as players, with and against each other, rather than what CCP can do, does or hasnt done.
He loves EVE, and is worried it is dying. Not because of CCP, but because of us.
PvE v PvP
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
54
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 13:09:11 -
[270] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:
The problem Eve has with subscriptions is the same problem many games have.... the age.
This has nothing to do with graphics or anything like that... it's how MMO's mature.
When a game starts, people are joining as they learn about it. It often starts slow and then gets bigger and bigger as people hear about a "cool new game".
Actually, what you are describing is true of many products, this pattern has a name: Bass Diffusion. At first the growth is exponential, then it tapers off to be logarithmic. The problem is that not only has growth tapered off people have left. As to why they have left is open to much speculation. I am in the camp of "people have left because CCP has been making the game less dangerous, less interesting." Not sure what the other side's argument is since they really haven't articulated one. Instead they argue the future of the game is in getting people who are not into PvP to play the game and drastically change the game to suit these new potential customers. Quote:Then, people start reaching the "end game". I know... people say "eve has no end game"... well there are "end ships". I remember what a big deal the first Titans were (and the first Titan kill). When people reach the end-game (or start getting close in the case of skills and ships for EVE) the developers have to start adding content for the end game. In other games it's raising the level cap and pushing the end game further out (making what was the end game now a "mid game" place). In EVE it's adding new ships and skills... from T2's to Titans to T3's. Eventually the gap gets so big it intimidates new players... and this starts the decline in this type of game. I tend to discount the skill gap argument. Yes, I have alot of SP. But whenever I am in a given ship the SP that apply to that ship and the modules are all that matter. And those SP might be 10-15 million SP. Which is still alot, but it is not a giant gap when comparing my 146 million SP to some other guys 26 million SP. Quote:Now Eve has actually handled this better than most games I've seen (which is why it still is around)... but it's still there. You want to be a Titan Pilot? Train for 3-4 years or spend a LOT of money on skill injectors. Not only do SP extractors/injectors allow for players to catch up who really want too, it also creates an SP sink reducing the over all pool of SP in the game. Quote:I'm not saying this is bad... it's just the lifecycle of a MMORPG. All of them reward those who've been active for a long time. But that eventually creates a gap that tends to make it tough to get new players. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that can be done. I think the unlimited trial setup has brought some players who left for a time back (like myself). But no amount of "new player benefits" is going to erase the fact that many toons have 10-15 years of training and asset accumulation on them. There are a large number of people who don't want to jump on board with a game when they feel like they're that far "behind". First off many of those players with 10+ years of time in game aren't playing anymore. If one decides, "I'm not going to play because I can never catch that tiny fraction who are still playing and have been for a long time..." well I'm thinking they wouldn't stay anyways. Further, with SP extractors/injectors new players can close that SP gap faster if they want too and have the RL ISK. Worrying that some player with 200+ million SP is going to come across you and beat you is like worrying about running into a grizzly bear in Time's Square. And if you really think it might be likely, grabe 4-5 friends and bone him.
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6060
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Posted - 2017.03.14 13:12:20 -
[271] - Quote
I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion (even if it's ventured off-track in a few areas).
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
74
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 14:37:26 -
[272] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".
Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it). I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.
Rather than continuing to gimp the "Alpha experience" CCP should be looking for ways to incentivize players to subscribe and become Omegas. So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated. because the problem isnt free to play its the gameplay itself but ccp just cant and wont and refuse to see it. I wonder how much actual User Research CCP does? and I dont mean listening to the CSM who dont even talk to the players. and I dont mean getting feedback on forums which is mostly vets trying to secure their game, I mean actually get out and speak to players. for me ill always say these things are problems Scamming - big problem Ganking - big problem Risk vs Reward - CCP have nerfed reward its pathetic. I mean you do a lvl 3 mission and you get literally not much for your efforts Immersion - the game can be terribly boring, missions are boring, pvp well isnt exactly exciting, there is no life in eve, you only ever see someone at a station or at a gate really, there is nothing in between. Citadels help a little on that but i want to see more life happening. I would love to see more actual aliens, instead of humanoids. NPCs are just things, there is no reality to them. The NPE was getting somewhere needs to be implemented into missions. The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now. I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things. Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
True Sci-Fi environment, true persistent sandbox universe, spaceships, and Quafe.
I dont know about you but these motivations will sure keep me going for the next 5 years or so, at least, and beyond that well, nothing lasts forever.
No video game in history has come this close to creating a universe where you can think 5 years down the line with it. |
Salvos Rhoska
2421
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 14:47:01 -
[273] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:No video game in history has come this close to creating a universe where you can think 5 years down the line with it. Ultima Online did, and still does.
The 90s, man. Cut too short by the turn of the century, and all the crap since.
Gaming, despite its increased popularity, is ever since in decline in quality. We really lost something crucial back then.
PvE v PvP
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Old School Exploration
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
54
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 16:29:41 -
[274] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:
The problem Eve has with subscriptions is the same problem many games have.... the age.
This has nothing to do with graphics or anything like that... it's how MMO's mature.
When a game starts, people are joining as they learn about it. It often starts slow and then gets bigger and bigger as people hear about a "cool new game".
Actually, what you are describing is true of many products, this pattern has a name: Bass Diffusion. At first the growth is exponential, then it tapers off to be logarithmic. The problem is that not only has growth tapered off people have left. As to why they have left is open to much speculation. I am in the camp of "people have left because CCP has been making the game less dangerous, less interesting." Not sure what the other side's argument is since they really haven't articulated one. Instead they argue the future of the game is in getting people who are not into PvP to play the game and drastically change the game to suit these new potential customers. Quote:Then, people start reaching the "end game". I know... people say "eve has no end game"... well there are "end ships". I remember what a big deal the first Titans were (and the first Titan kill). When people reach the end-game (or start getting close in the case of skills and ships for EVE) the developers have to start adding content for the end game. In other games it's raising the level cap and pushing the end game further out (making what was the end game now a "mid game" place). In EVE it's adding new ships and skills... from T2's to Titans to T3's. Eventually the gap gets so big it intimidates new players... and this starts the decline in this type of game. I tend to discount the skill gap argument. Yes, I have alot of SP. But whenever I am in a given ship the SP that apply to that ship and the modules are all that matter. And those SP might be 10-15 million SP. Which is still alot, but it is not a giant gap when comparing my 146 million SP to some other guys 26 million SP. Quote:Now Eve has actually handled this better than most games I've seen (which is why it still is around)... but it's still there. You want to be a Titan Pilot? Train for 3-4 years or spend a LOT of money on skill injectors. Not only do SP extractors/injectors allow for players to catch up who really want too, it also creates an SP sink reducing the over all pool of SP in the game. Quote:I'm not saying this is bad... it's just the lifecycle of a MMORPG. All of them reward those who've been active for a long time. But that eventually creates a gap that tends to make it tough to get new players. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that can be done. I think the unlimited trial setup has brought some players who left for a time back (like myself). But no amount of "new player benefits" is going to erase the fact that many toons have 10-15 years of training and asset accumulation on them. There are a large number of people who don't want to jump on board with a game when they feel like they're that far "behind". First off many of those players with 10+ years of time in game aren't playing anymore. If one decides, "I'm not going to play because I can never catch that tiny fraction who are still playing and have been for a long time..." well I'm thinking they wouldn't stay anyways. Further, with SP extractors/injectors new players can close that SP gap faster if they want too and have the RL ISK. Worrying that some player with 200+ million SP is going to come across you and beat you is like worrying about running into a grizzly bear in Time's Square. And if you really think it might be likely, grabe 4-5 friends and bone him.
Look... all games have a huge "gap" feeling between those joining later in the game and those joining earlier. I felt that in 2008 and I can't imagine how much more people feel it today. It's not as bad as other games, but it's foolish to think that factor doesn't exist. That feeling of being behind is a deterrent to new players and it increases as the age of existing players (and their wealth and ability) increase.
With other games... there are some options. If you keep the gap between start and end-game easy to traverse, new players aren't as intimidated by it. Of course... old players tend to get bored and leave which isn't ideal either. Eve is the opposite... it's tough to get new players but old players build up a lot of equity in the game. Eve does better bringing subscribers back (like me) than getting truly brand new players because of that fact.... I've already got some equity in the game and so I get to come back to that equity.
Eve is a single server though... and that gap is intimidating. Some people will be okay with it... but the number of people willing to join in a pay to play game and make up a 10 year perceived deficit is going to be small... and get smaller and smaller as time passes. Yes... you could spend a few hundred dollars to catch up using injectors... but that's not realistic. You could also try to earn isk to pay for the injectors... but new players don't earn isk as quickly as those who are already trained up. I could grind missions or anomalies for 10 hours and get a skill injector... but the guy running level 1 or 2 mission? Yeah... it's going to take him a lot longer.
Let's say you feel like 15 million sp added to where you start are needed to "catch up" to the point you're able to be on par with an experienced player. That's over 400 dollars worth of plex to pay for those injectors... and that's still short of the 26 million sp you suggest would put them at a level to make no difference. That's an intimidating gap for a new player. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
54
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 16:35:30 -
[275] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Verlyn wrote:No video game in history has come this close to creating a universe where you can think 5 years down the line with it. Ultima Online did, and still does. The 90s, man. Cut too short by the turn of the century, and all the crap since. Gaming, despite its increased popularity, is ever since in decline in quality. We really lost something crucial back then.
I don't really remember that in UO... but I stopped playing after about a year and a half. Still have that cloth map that came with the game around somewhere. |
Salvos Rhoska
2425
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 17:00:54 -
[276] - Quote
Scialt wrote:I don't really remember that in UO... but I stopped playing after about a year and a half. Still have that cloth map that came with the game around somewhere.
You ofc couldnt just afk wait for a "Titan" toon, and you had to actively grind to raise skills. But many of us had 5 years plans regarding where and what we wanted to be. Mostly regarding building communities.
Had it not been for the Trammel/Felucca split...
That taught me that PvP must never be separated from PvE.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6225
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Posted - 2017.03.14 18:18:51 -
[277] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
Look... all games have a huge "gap" feeling between those joining later in the game and those joining earlier. I felt that in 2008 and I can't imagine how much more people feel it today. It's not as bad as other games, but it's foolish to think that factor doesn't exist. That feeling of being behind is a deterrent to new players and it increases as the age of existing players (and their wealth and ability) increase.
With other games... there are some options. If you keep the gap between start and end-game easy to traverse, new players aren't as intimidated by it. Of course... old players tend to get bored and leave which isn't ideal either. Eve is the opposite... it's tough to get new players but old players build up a lot of equity in the game. Eve does better bringing subscribers back (like me) than getting truly brand new players because of that fact.... I've already got some equity in the game and so I get to come back to that equity.
Eve is a single server though... and that gap is intimidating. Some people will be okay with it... but the number of people willing to join in a pay to play game and make up a 10 year perceived deficit is going to be small... and get smaller and smaller as time passes. Yes... you could spend a few hundred dollars to catch up using injectors... but that's not realistic. You could also try to earn isk to pay for the injectors... but new players don't earn isk as quickly as those who are already trained up. I could grind missions or anomalies for 10 hours and get a skill injector... but the guy running level 1 or 2 mission? Yeah... it's going to take him a lot longer.
Let's say you feel like 15 million sp added to where you start are needed to "catch up" to the point you're able to be on par with an experienced player. That's over 400 dollars worth of plex to pay for those injectors... and that's still short of the 26 million sp you suggest would put them at a level to make no difference. That's an intimidating gap for a new player.
Okay, let me try again and more simply: that gap...that intimidation is largely in your head. Every player should be playing the game to have fun for himself, not worrying if some other player is somehow having more fun. If you do come into conflict with an older player the context matters a great deal. If a 4 month old player catches my "8 year old" industrial character in an industrial ship...I'm boned even though that character of mine may have 10x the SP. A player who has 10+ years who runs into a gate camp with 5 two year old characters is likely going to be in trouble. This notion of more SP -> win is just wrongheaded thinking.
And yeah, to get 15 million SP "fast" is going to cost some serious money...that is about a year of standard training. You can pay $10.95/month and do it the old fashion way or you can pay near 2x and do it fast. Everything comes with a tradeoff.
Oh, and another thing. Early on I thought like you: more SP and I'll be able to defeat other players. But I quickly found out that getting the SP to get into a specific ship was not a "cure all". Sure I could then get in to a battleship, but then you find out that it sucks against small fast moving ships and that you can die to a surprisingly small number of those small fast moving ships in certain instances. So there is a new player, he doesn't want to wait, he plunks down $400 pumps in 15 million SP goes out in some spiffy ship because now he is a bad ass and dies to people in not so spiffy ships who set up a nice gate camp in LS or NS or wherever. Now how does he feel about that $400 expenditure?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
54
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Posted - 2017.03.14 19:22:59 -
[278] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, let me try again and more simply: that gap...that intimidation is largely in your head. Every player should be playing the game to have fun for himself, not worrying if some other player is somehow having more fun. If you do come into conflict with an older player the context matters a great deal. If a 4 month old player catches my "8 year old" industrial character in an industrial ship...I'm boned even though that character of mine may have 10x the SP. A player who has 10+ years who runs into a gate camp with 5 two year old characters is likely going to be in trouble. This notion of more SP -> win is just wrongheaded thinking.
And yeah, to get 15 million SP "fast" is going to cost some serious money...that is about a year of standard training. You can pay $10.95/month and do it the old fashion way or you can pay near 2x and do it fast. Everything comes with a tradeoff.
Oh, and another thing. Early on I thought like you: more SP and I'll be able to defeat other players. But I quickly found out that getting the SP to get into a specific ship was not a "cure all". Sure I could then get in to a battleship, but then you find out that it sucks against small fast moving ships and that you can die to a surprisingly small number of those small fast moving ships in certain instances. So there is a new player, he doesn't want to wait, he plunks down $400 pumps in 15 million SP goes out in some spiffy ship because now he is a bad ass and dies to people in not so spiffy ships who set up a nice gate camp in LS or NS or wherever. Now how does he feel about that $400 expenditure?
You're trying to say that perception of the gap shouldn't matter. And perhaps it shouldn't... but it's silly to think it doesn't exist. And that perception does increase the difficulty of attracting new subs.
And it's simplistic to narrow down what I was saying to just "SP". It's about overall development in the game. One of the great things about EVE is how it involves long term planning and very little comes easy.
And one of the things that keeps new players away is the fact the game involves long term planning and very little comes easy... but many others have already gotten there because the game is 15 years old.
I think Eve is an awesome game. But if CCP created a new server that started from scratch... I'd abandon my 40m sp main and be there in a heartbeat. And I think many more than you'd expect would do the same. Many of us are okay with the fact we have some deficits because we started later (no T2 BPO's, 100m skill point differentials, 100billion isk totals, hours of research on BP's). The game is good enough and enjoyable enough that we can accept that.
But a large number of us would also still choose to start over from an even spot if given the opportunity. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1572
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 19:30:20 -
[279] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote: I know which group will whinge the loudest about all that...as always, the Carebears.
Shae always conveniently forgets Nullbears. What? Nullbears are carebears you stupid idiot.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
54
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 19:35:00 -
[280] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scialt wrote:I don't really remember that in UO... but I stopped playing after about a year and a half. Still have that cloth map that came with the game around somewhere. You ofc couldnt just afk wait for a "Titan" toon, and you had to actively grind to raise skills. But many of us had 5 years plans regarding where and what we wanted to be. Mostly regarding building communities. Had it not been for the Trammel/Felucca split... That taught me that PvP must never be separated from PvE.
Back when I played there was a set maximum on total skill points and you could get there relatively quickly. The problems I remember having was trying to keep the right 7 skills maxed and not accidentally lowering them when you didn't want to. We're getting way off topic though. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6225
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 21:13:50 -
[281] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, let me try again and more simply: that gap...that intimidation is largely in your head. Every player should be playing the game to have fun for himself, not worrying if some other player is somehow having more fun. If you do come into conflict with an older player the context matters a great deal. If a 4 month old player catches my "8 year old" industrial character in an industrial ship...I'm boned even though that character of mine may have 10x the SP. A player who has 10+ years who runs into a gate camp with 5 two year old characters is likely going to be in trouble. This notion of more SP -> win is just wrongheaded thinking.
And yeah, to get 15 million SP "fast" is going to cost some serious money...that is about a year of standard training. You can pay $10.95/month and do it the old fashion way or you can pay near 2x and do it fast. Everything comes with a tradeoff.
Oh, and another thing. Early on I thought like you: more SP and I'll be able to defeat other players. But I quickly found out that getting the SP to get into a specific ship was not a "cure all". Sure I could then get in to a battleship, but then you find out that it sucks against small fast moving ships and that you can die to a surprisingly small number of those small fast moving ships in certain instances. So there is a new player, he doesn't want to wait, he plunks down $400 pumps in 15 million SP goes out in some spiffy ship because now he is a bad ass and dies to people in not so spiffy ships who set up a nice gate camp in LS or NS or wherever. Now how does he feel about that $400 expenditure?
You're trying to say that perception of the gap shouldn't matter. And perhaps it shouldn't... but it's silly to think it doesn't exist. And that perception does increase the difficulty of attracting new subs. And it's simplistic to narrow down what I was saying to just "SP". It's about overall development in the game. One of the great things about EVE is how it involves long term planning and very little comes easy. And one of the things that keeps new players away is the fact the game involves long term planning and very little comes easy... but many others have already gotten there because the game is 15 years old. I think Eve is an awesome game. But if CCP created a new server that started from scratch... I'd abandon my 40m sp main and be there in a heartbeat. And I think many more than you'd expect would do the same. Many of us are okay with the fact we have some deficits because we started later (no T2 BPO's, 100m skill point differentials, 100billion isk totals, hours of research on BP's). The game is good enough and enjoyable enough that we can accept that. But a large number of us would also still choose to start over from an even spot if given the opportunity.
Your argument does not go away with the new server. There will always be early adopters who will have these awful advantages you are speaking of. In a couple of years, you'll have those who made the switch and are now 2 years along and people starting 2 years from today would be back saying, "I can't compete." And to be perfectly honest here is what I hear, GÇ£ItGÇÖs not fair!GÇ¥ And there is still going to be the knowledge gap that the players have. Those coming to the new server will do things very differently than those who are starting for the first time. The veterans will be training core skills first the GÇ£boringGÇ¥ skills. TheyGÇÖll know good ways to start making ISK with little upfront costs. TheyGÇÖll understand the importance of the capacitor and cap warfare whereas newbies wonGÇÖt. And on and on.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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ApexDynamo
Hazardous Wormhole Rebels
11
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 21:30:41 -
[282] - Quote
If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's
1. Cant fly anything bigger then a t1 frigate,
2. cant transfer isk from the alpha to an omega, or contracts
3.Limited Skill point set at 2.5m sp
4.Alpha's are restricted from leaveing highsec
|
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6070
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 21:31:33 -
[283] - Quote
ApexDynamo wrote:If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's Let the salt flow...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
ApexDynamo
Hazardous Wormhole Rebels
11
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 21:33:09 -
[284] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:ApexDynamo wrote:If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's Let the salt flow...
I despise alpha change with a passion, been playing since 07 with first toon always bought 1 year subs from ccp. alpha is totally being abused and ccp aint makeing much profit from it eathier |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
527
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 21:35:26 -
[285] - Quote
ApexDynamo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:ApexDynamo wrote:If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's Let the salt flow... I despise alpha change with a passion, been playing since 07 with first toon always bought 1 year subs from ccp. alpha is totally being abused and ccp aint makeing much profit from it eathier
i do intend the sub like you.. i think... xD always and only 1 year sub |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6071
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 21:36:33 -
[286] - Quote
Electronic Arts likes F2P models...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
527
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 21:38:07 -
[287] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Electronic Arts likes F2P models...
are you implying that ccp is on the shopping list of EA? it's years that it's on that list... |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8249
|
Posted - 2017.03.14 23:19:50 -
[288] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:But if you want to make some bank out in the middle of nowhere and rake in all that you want from your efforts, someone can lay a bullet into your brain stem with a sniper rig and take all your stuff.
The difference is that the person who does that in the city is going to be hard pressed to do it again if they get return fire or put in a cage. If you want to take a ridiculous real world comparison, then do it all the way. No one is more remote than being in space. Certainly far more remote than the middle of nowhere on Earth where someone might be able to put a bullet in your brain stem (like really...the mentality of carebears). That doesn't even compare to the remoteness of space in the slightest, because out in space you aren't in Frankfurt, or any other city. You'e in a vacuum (at least one with lots of water in it). Alternatively, just take the much more reasonable view that this isn't RL, it's just a game. It's fine to shoot someone or be shot at anywhere, because it's just a game. But the "jollies" of the HTFU and gank crowd is real. Why not take it all the way and make any out of game blog (out of character pointing and laughing at carebears and miners when you wind them up, no more E1, etc) against the rules? See how that works? BTW I knew you would respond with that. Your type is predictable as usual. I expect Teckos to lose sleep over my idea in the same modus of a scab being irresistible. The other thing to that comment is its much more reasonable given this is not RL to use the 7,000 pure PvP systems to PvP in. Apart from war decs leave the people who don't want to PvP alone in their 1/7 of the space you have, go play with your capitals, citidels and all the other rewards you get for PvP'ing in those 7,000 systems. The more people that are paying IRL money to play the game the more money CCP gets and the more toys and systems that get added. Since its a game it really shouldn't be bothering people that some choose the carebear life, at least not to the extent it seems to bother some people in this thread, surely this is just a sideline thing you do in your greater life and not your greater life.... I hope.
Well the trend for a while, for a lot of fellows, was to "tune out" of life and live all their lives and drama (with the full compliment of other emotions) through videogames. That trend is coming to an end because RL is getting more interesting, players are realizing that there is more to life no matter how much they try to avoid it, and socjus went a bridge too far trying to invade the last refuge of western civilizations dispossessed men, an incident best known as "Gamergate".
But what we have here is a small plurality of that last bastion of such people, ever more bitterly clinging to 2010, getting ever more zealous in their "doctrines" on how the game should be played, and ever more forgetting that it's only a game. It's as if they had so mastered their life in retreat they don't want to leave it.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Beta Maoye
151
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 00:18:14 -
[289] - Quote
Isn't it amazing a game can last for more than 13 years? They are still fixing bugs and rewriting legacy codes that were more than a decade ago. It can't be done without love and passion from the company and players. |
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 01:31:49 -
[290] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Electronic Arts likes F2P models... I though their thing was $60 game (or $100+ collector's edition) + $60 season pass + whatever cosmetic or booster items they can go whaling with. |
|
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1188
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 16:11:29 -
[291] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Electronic Arts likes F2P models...
And here we have it.
This entire thread is tears.
This whole topic is just designed to support the narrative of fail anti-gankers. The whole "CODE. is killing the game so CCP made alphas to fluff up the numbers so they can sell the game."
It's tinfoil, but more than that, it's tears.
Another threadnaught full of tears over the New Order. Lol
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Salvos Rhoska
2435
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 16:32:47 -
[292] - Quote
Calm down, suicide ganker.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3198
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 20:15:43 -
[293] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Electronic Arts likes F2P models...
EA don't like free to play they like money. If subscription was were the money was, they would put subscription on their games. For all the hate they keep getting and random "boycot" on their product, they sure as hell won't go broke any time soon. |
Johnno Ormand
Row Row Fight the Power Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 20:16:55 -
[294] - Quote
CCPls fix AFK cloaky camping! |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3198
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 20:17:28 -
[295] - Quote
ApexDynamo wrote:If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's
1. Cant fly anything bigger then a t1 frigate,
2. cant transfer isk from the alpha to an omega, or contracts
3.Limited Skill point set at 2.5m sp
4.Alpha's are restricted from leaveing highsec
How the hell do you try a game when you can't do **** in the trial?
He're is a trial of chess but you only play with rooks because :reasons:. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6228
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 20:43:27 -
[296] - Quote
Johnno Ormand wrote:CCPls fix AFK cloaky camping!
Wrong thread.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 13:31:32 -
[297] - Quote
Rroff wrote: I can't pretend to have an answer to it and new player retention certainly isn't the only reason for a declining player base - I'm no fan of making highsec significantly safer and nothing is coming to me right now as to how to solve it. One aspect that I know has been a big factor in some of them quitting is the lack of ability to retaliate - I've been asked more than once before, before someone quit, to help them get revenge and I've had to tell them that there is little that they or I can do to meaningfully interdict for instance someone's random alt that is only used purely for catalyst ganking and so on.
Quoting myself here - but on reflection in almost every case (except 1-2) it wasn't (as I'd originally thought) the act of being ganked that turned them away from the game it was the fact that there was usually no meaningful way to extract revenge - even by teaming up with more experienced players.
Only half serious but maybe the act of initiating non-consensual PVP in highsec (excluding as part of a war) should result in that player:
-Unable to leave highsec for the duration of the kill right (maybe with some modification of the kill right duration) -Ship/pod always stays in space if they log off -Unable to dock in stations (or kicked out when they log off) -Have to log at POS or a citadel belonging to the corp they are in (otherwise they'd float in space)
:insert evil smiley: |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1188
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 13:41:17 -
[298] - Quote
Carebear entitlement is disgusting.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6233
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 20:01:34 -
[299] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Rroff wrote: I can't pretend to have an answer to it and new player retention certainly isn't the only reason for a declining player base - I'm no fan of making highsec significantly safer and nothing is coming to me right now as to how to solve it. One aspect that I know has been a big factor in some of them quitting is the lack of ability to retaliate - I've been asked more than once before, before someone quit, to help them get revenge and I've had to tell them that there is little that they or I can do to meaningfully interdict for instance someone's random alt that is only used purely for catalyst ganking and so on.
Quoting myself here - but on reflection in almost every case (except 1-2) it wasn't (as I'd originally thought) the act of being ganked that turned them away from the game it was the fact that there was usually no meaningful way to extract revenge - even by teaming up with more experienced players. Only half serious but maybe the act of initiating non-consensual PVP in highsec (excluding as part of a war) should result in that player: -Unable to leave highsec for the duration of the kill right (maybe with some modification of the kill right duration) -Ship/pod always stays in space if they log off -Unable to dock in stations (or kicked out when they log off) -Have to log at POS or a citadel belonging to the corp they are in (otherwise they'd float in space) :insert evil smiley:
Your proposal fails to do what you claim you want. You are asking CCP to do what you canGÇÖt or wonGÇÖt (mostly won't).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 21:10:19 -
[300] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Your proposal fails to do what you claim you want. You are asking CCP to do what you canGÇÖt or wonGÇÖt (mostly won't).
What are you talking about? though my proposal is mostly not intended seriously it would (with a bit of tweaking and some other changes I didn't go into as it wasn't intended entirely seriously) make real consequences for taking an action - the only people who wouldn't like it are those who just like to kill easy targets with little risk of actual comeback. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 21:35:29 -
[301] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Your proposal fails to do what you claim you want. You are asking CCP to do what you canGÇÖt or wonGÇÖt (mostly won't).
What are you talking about? though my proposal is mostly not intended seriously it would (with a bit of tweaking and some other changes I didn't go into as it wasn't intended entirely seriously) make real consequences for taking an action - the only people who wouldn't like it are those who just like to kill easy targets with little risk of actual comeback. EDIT: Don't confuse what I'm saying with something I necessarily want - its more a commentary on what I have observed is one aspect having an impact on a declining player base and reduced uptake of new players compared to the potential - personally I'm quite happy with highsec how it is (not that I play any more) but that is because I know how to navigate those dangers and it adds some interesting elements when you know there is some risk even though if I do say so myself I've become fairly competent at mitigating them.
In either sense it isn't going to give you what you are trying to accomplish.
If you want a person to have risk...go increase their risk. Risk is not something the game gives, risk is based off of player choices and actions. People do not want to take the actions necessary to impose risk on other players. Gankers can and do avoid the FacPo, but it would be much harder to avoid players. Get a fleet going, get a guy who can do scanning, warp into the gankers and start activating kill rights and kill them. I bet many of them have several kill rights, so if they come back...kill them again.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 21:41:53 -
[302] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
In either sense it isn't going to give you what you are trying to accomplish.
If you want a person to have risk...go increase their risk. Risk is not something the game gives, risk is based off of player choices and actions. People do not want to take the actions necessary to impose risk on other players. Gankers can and do avoid the FacPo, but it would be much harder to avoid players. Get a fleet going, get a guy who can do scanning, warp into the gankers and start activating kill rights and kill them. I bet many of them have several kill rights, so if they come back...kill them again.
Reality is it often doesn't work like that - many are for instance purely catalyst alts that login just for a gank, log out again - would need a lot of luck and being right place right time to even interdict them enroute to a gank - some just shuttle to a waiting orca, etc. with a very narrow opportunity to get them (I'm a little out of date on this so tactics might be different now). |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:13:18 -
[303] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
In either sense it isn't going to give you what you are trying to accomplish.
If you want a person to have risk...go increase their risk. Risk is not something the game gives, risk is based off of player choices and actions. People do not want to take the actions necessary to impose risk on other players. Gankers can and do avoid the FacPo, but it would be much harder to avoid players. Get a fleet going, get a guy who can do scanning, warp into the gankers and start activating kill rights and kill them. I bet many of them have several kill rights, so if they come back...kill them again.
Reality is it often doesn't work like that - many are for instance purely catalyst alts that login just for a gank, log out again - would need a lot of luck and being right place right time to even interdict them enroute to a gank - some just shuttle to a waiting orca, etc. with a very narrow opportunity to get them (I'm a little out of date on this so tactics might be different now). PS I'm not some hippy loving carebear :p - I've blagged the odd officer fit tengu, marauders and half a dozen freighters in my time :s
So go shoot their catalysts. What is the problem? That you can't impose a 5 billion ISK loss on them? Of course not they are not imprudent. In fact they are quite prudent. This is why it is hard to kill them. But they are doing things to make themselves hard to kill. They are taking actions that reduce their risk.
See it yet?
Prudence is good.
Imprudence is bad.
This true in game. This is true out of game.
If somebody is upset because they lost 6 billion ISK worth of cargo...they should be mad, at least in large part, at themselves for taking on so much risk.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:16:36 -
[304] - Quote
Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:24:58 -
[305] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start.
And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it?
Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game."
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:26:56 -
[306] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start. And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it? Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game."
Im not sitting around the table at CCP.
How about skipping those silly weeklong skilltrainingsessions. Have a set number of skills available at any time. Like inplants without the gazillion cost. Yeah, everything interesting doesnt have to cost a gazillion. Why not give players a break, constant fear of dying is not pleasant in any game.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:35:11 -
[307] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start. And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it? Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game." Im not sitting around the table at CCP. How about skipping those silly weeklong skilltrainingsessions. Have a set number of skills available at any time. Like inplants without the gazillion cost. Yeah, everything interesting doesnt have to cost a gazillion. Why not give players a break, constant fear of dying is not pleasant in any game.
None of this will do what you seek to accomplish, IMO.
We need to make new players feel empowered! Throw SP at them. Throw ISK at them. Throw ships at them. None of that actually addresses the problem you think you have identified.
And what constant fear of dying. HS is pretty damn safe already. I mean **** on a stick. Look at this. And this. In that last link I convert the amount of ISK value moving around the Forge into US dollars. It is a $33 million. Tell me again about this fear of constantly dying.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:39:23 -
[308] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
So go shoot their catalysts. What is the problem? That you can't impose a 5 billion ISK loss on them? Of course not they are not imprudent. In fact they are quite prudent. This is why it is hard to kill them. But they are doing things to make themselves hard to kill. They are taking actions that reduce their risk.
See it yet?
Prudence is good.
Imprudence is bad.
This true in game. This is true out of game.
If somebody is upset because they lost 6 billion ISK worth of cargo...they should be mad, at least in large part, at themselves for taking on so much risk.
That is nothing to do with imprudence or prudence - the game mechanics massively null any real risk to them without them having to take any steps whatsoever - you'd have to stalk one of them obsessively without sleeping for days on end to even stand a chance of being in the right place at the right time for those few seconds when they are exposed and some of them will just log out and switch to another alt until kill rights have expired and so on.
Neither am I talking about massive losses - there is only so much prudence can protect you when say mining in a retriever - which are quite common gank targets - much of what I'm talking about is new players losing relatively low value stuff (though not so low value to them) in their first few weeks of playing. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:41:45 -
[309] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start. And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it? Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game." Im not sitting around the table at CCP. How about skipping those silly weeklong skilltrainingsessions. Have a set number of skills available at any time. Like inplants without the gazillion cost. Yeah, everything interesting doesnt have to cost a gazillion. Why not give players a break, constant fear of dying is not pleasant in any game. None of this will do what you seek to accomplish, IMO. We need to make new players feel empowered! Throw SP at them. Throw ISK at them. Throw ships at them. None of that actually addresses the problem you think you have identified. And what constant fear of dying. HS is pretty damn safe already. I mean **** on a stick. Look at this. And this. In that last link I convert the amount of ISK value moving around the Forge into US dollars. It is a $33 million. Tell me again about this fear of constantly dying.
So, you prefer suggestion 1, dont change anything and let players slowly fade away?
Im brainstorming here, what exactly is the point of monthlong skilltrainings? Endagame? To intimidate newbies? Why do you have to go to "work" (mining, corporate cannonfodder) for weeks just to get a decent ship or skillbook.
Its like Monopoly in space. Work or perish.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:50:13 -
[310] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
So go shoot their catalysts. What is the problem? That you can't impose a 5 billion ISK loss on them? Of course not they are not imprudent. In fact they are quite prudent. This is why it is hard to kill them. But they are doing things to make themselves hard to kill. They are taking actions that reduce their risk.
See it yet?
Prudence is good.
Imprudence is bad.
This true in game. This is true out of game.
If somebody is upset because they lost 6 billion ISK worth of cargo...they should be mad, at least in large part, at themselves for taking on so much risk.
That is nothing to do with imprudence or prudence - the game mechanics massively null any real risk to them without them having to take any steps whatsoever - you'd have to stalk one of them obsessively without sleeping for days on end to even stand a chance of being in the right place at the right time for those few seconds when they are exposed and some of them will just log out and switch to another alt until kill rights have expired and so on. Neither am I talking about massive losses - there is only so much prudence can protect you when say mining in a retriever - which are quite common gank targets - much of what I'm talking about is new players losing relatively low value stuff (though not so low value to them) in their first few weeks of playing.
No, the mechanics are the environment. See here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875713#post6875713
Quote: For example, If I put 700 million ISK work of cargo into my tanked freighter and use a scout and manually pilot I'll likely be fine. On the other hand if I were to put 7 billion into an anti-tanked freighter and not use a scout my actions have caused me to face considerably more risk. Note in both instances the game environment is the same, but it is my actions that dictate the level of risk I am taking on.
And why is a pilot mining in a retriever when they can mine a procurer. A procurer can fit a pretty massive tank so that it will take several catalysts to burn you down, at least 4 maybe 5 or 6. And how many miners are ganked while watching Netflix or the like? Again player actions. Choosing a retriever, a very gankable ship. Fitting it with not tank. Watching Netflix. All imprudent actions IGÇÖm afraid.
Actions are what make a difference. For the suicide ganker he is taking actions to minimize his risk. He uses a fast aligning ship, he uses safe spots, he uses citadels, he uses cheap ships. He is using the environment to his best advantage whereas their targets, generally, are not.
Edit: Christ I feel like I'm having the same conversation over and over again...some EVE version of Ground Hog Day.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 22:58:31 -
[311] - Quote
@Teckos Pech
Im not here to undermine you or the game. I have only played for 3 months, mainly exploring. And tomorrow I will get my final essential skill, hacking level 5.
It has not been a pleasant trip, but I occasionally get my frustration out in WoT and AW.
So, finding a way to ease those first months for a newbie should be of importance to make a new player addicted.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:01:00 -
[312] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
So, you prefer suggestion 1, dont change anything and let players slowly fade away?
Im brainstorming here, what exactly is the point of monthlong skilltrainings? Endagame? To intimidate newbies? Why do you have to go to "work" (mining, corporate cannonfodder) for weeks just to get a decent ship or skillbook.
Its like Monopoly in space. Work or perish.
No, but my point is that what you suggest will help the game is something that is very hard to accomplish and may be detrimental to the game. Maybe the better thing to do is tell new players EVE is not like other video games. That it is a harsh and cut-throat game, but if you are patient, learn not only the mechanics, but how to use them you can learn not only how to survive but thrive. Instead of trying to make them great...give them some realistic expectations of the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:04:33 -
[313] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:@Teckos Pech
Im not here to undermine you or the game. I have only played for 3 months, mainly exploring. And tomorrow I will get my final essential skill, hacking level 5.
It has not been a pleasant trip, but I occasionally get my frustration out in WoT and AW.
So, finding a way to ease those first months for a newbie should be of importance to make a new player addicted.
The length of skill training is for game balance. Imagine if everyone started out able to do hacking right out of the gate. You'd find nothing worth exploring. Older more experienced players would be out there getting all the goodies first with an alt. And even if you did find something good, all those people doing exploration would crash the market.
Probably the best thing for player retention is player-on-player interaction. Players who do not interact with other players leave the game the soonest and that includes ship-to-ship combat as one form of interaction.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:10:52 -
[314] - Quote
How about this.
Make Highsec antigank, let everybody live in harmony and AFK the **** out of this game. On the other hand, make Losec so alluring and profitable that you are superwilling to take the risks.
Skip those lowtier ships. Let newbies get some decent ships and beginner skills.
Remove some of that "rock, paper, scissor" mentality from the dogfights. How about a panicbutton that will teleport you to nearest highsec space, with cooldown.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:17:58 -
[315] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
The length of skill training is for game balance. Imagine if everyone started out able to do hacking right out of the gate. You'd find nothing worth exploring. Older more experienced players would be out there getting all the goodies first with an alt. And even if you did find something good, all those people doing exploration would crash the market.
Probably the best thing for player retention is player-on-player interaction. Players who do not interact with other players leave the game the soonest and that includes ship-to-ship combat as one form of interaction.
Good point. You were talkin about risks in other post.
They should lower the risks for newbies. This game has a bad rep. Players are too scared of WH, losec and dogfighting, take away some of the risks of losing it all (panicbutton).
Should be more opportunities for soloplayers. Would lure more "mature" players with time and money on their hands.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:22:45 -
[316] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, the mechanics are the environment. See here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875713#post6875713 Quote: For example, If I put 700 million ISK work of cargo into my tanked freighter and use a scout and manually pilot I'll likely be fine. On the other hand if I were to put 7 billion into an anti-tanked freighter and not use a scout my actions have caused me to face considerably more risk. Note in both instances the game environment is the same, but it is my actions that dictate the level of risk I am taking on. And why is a pilot mining in a retriever when they can mine a procurer. A procurer can fit a pretty massive tank so that it will take several catalysts to burn you down, at least 4 maybe 5 or 6. And how many miners are ganked while watching Netflix or the like? Again player actions. Choosing a retriever, a very gankable ship. Fitting it with not tank. Watching Netflix. All imprudent actions IGÇÖm afraid. Actions are what make a difference. For the suicide ganker he is taking actions to minimize his risk. He uses a fast aligning ship, he uses safe spots, he uses citadels, he uses cheap ships. He is using the environment to his best advantage whereas their targets, generally, are not. Edit: Christ I feel like I'm having the same conversation over and over again...some EVE version of Ground Hog Day.
None of my argument is about people piloting freighters and getting ganked - I'm not disagreeing with any of those arguments at all - I take a lot of precautions using blockade runners, etc. and if people haven't learnt how to minimise the risks by the time they are able to fly those kind of ships then I have little sympathy for them and there simply is no helping them.
I'm talking about a very demonstrable loss of potential subscribers as new players which could possibly be avoided and with the trend of a declining player base it isn't something that should be trivially dismissed. I'm not saying here that every or a large number are not turning into long term subscribers due to this but at the same time atleast my experience suggests it isn't an insignificant number.
You are focusing way too much on specifics related to my argument than seeing the whole argument in broad strokes for what it is hence this is likely to go around and around :s at the end of the day someone using an alt to gank an inexperienced player can be almost if not entirely immune to repercussions by doing very little themselves the balance of the game is steeply in the ganker's favour and only those who like picking on targets that are unable to fight back would defend against measures that would make it a bit more equal. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6235
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:23:22 -
[317] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
The length of skill training is for game balance. Imagine if everyone started out able to do hacking right out of the gate. You'd find nothing worth exploring. Older more experienced players would be out there getting all the goodies first with an alt. And even if you did find something good, all those people doing exploration would crash the market.
Probably the best thing for player retention is player-on-player interaction. Players who do not interact with other players leave the game the soonest and that includes ship-to-ship combat as one form of interaction.
Good point. You were talkin about risks in other post. They should lower the risks for newbies. This game has a bad rep. Players are too scared of WH, losec and dogfighting, take away some of the risks of losing it all (panicbutton). Should be more opportunities for soloplayers. Would lure more "mature" players with time and money on their hands.
New players need to learn how to lower their own risk. Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them. They might get caught up in a wardec if the join a player run corp early on, but the veterans there should be helping them learn how to manage that risk...and if they aren't then the new guy needs to find a better corp.
Solo play is probably counter indicated given that player interaction is important for player retention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:24:07 -
[318] - Quote
Meh, knowing the playerbase a panicbutton is not good.
Maan that would be exploited. How about a "drop your cargo save your ship"-button?
Then you have a choice, fight til the bitter end or get away with your awesome ship.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:30:06 -
[319] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them.
Honestly I find CCP's statistics somewhat romanticised to fit the narration they want to tell - while I'm not suggesting like 60% of all new players face it or something I'm fairly certain it is a bigger factor than that. Sometime around 2014-2015 I was involved in around 10 people trying the game, some I know IRL and some from another forum and atleast 3 of them were suicide ganked a couple of them repeatedly in the first few weeks of playing. Around that time I was working IRL with a bunch of guys that were either in IRC or corps with ties to them who also confirmed a similar story with people they had tried to get into the game. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:36:27 -
[320] - Quote
-Confidence -Progress -Purpose -Excitement
Confidence is the worst part. You are fumbling in the dark for a long, long time as newbie.
Progress and purpose could easily be sped up with ships and tweaks to combat, flying.
Excitement, a hard one. Can a game please everyone, a few or none?
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:38:48 -
[321] - Quote
Rroff wrote:None of my argument is about people piloting freighters and getting ganked - I'm not disagreeing with any of those arguments at all - I take a lot of precautions using blockade runners, etc. and if people haven't learnt how to minimise the risks by the time they are able to fly those kind of ships then I have little sympathy for them and there simply is no helping them.
I was using freighter ganking to make a general point. Every player's risk is dependent on the player's actions and those of other players. The game won't suddenly gank you. Only other players do that. And NPC corp won't wardec you, only other players do that.
If you face risk in the game it is based on your actions and other players seeing a opportunity to benefit from you taking on too much risk.
Rroff wrote:I'm talking about a very demonstrable loss of potential subscribers as new players which could possibly be avoided and with the trend of a declining player base it isn't something that should be trivially dismissed. I'm not saying here that every or a large number are not turning into long term subscribers due to this but at the same time atleast my experience suggests it isn't an insignificant number.
IGÇÖm not dismissing it. I am telling you that your views are diametrically opposed to the core nature of the game. Lots of HS content has been lost over the years. Targeted HS war decs and can flipping are two examples. Other things like suicide ganking have been repeatedly nerfed with things like faster CONCORD response times and the removal of insurance for ships destroyed by CONCORD.
Rroff wrote:You are focusing way too much on specifics related to my argument than seeing the whole argument in broad strokes for what it is hence this is likely to go around and around :s at the end of the day someone using an alt to gank an inexperienced player can be almost if not entirely immune to repercussions by doing very little themselves the balance of the game is steeply in the ganker's favour and only those who like picking on targets that are unable to fight back would defend against measures that would make it a bit more equal.
First new players are rarely suicide ganked, well at least the ones who are 15 days old or younger (see the above youtube video). Second players who have been suicide ganked or killed legally and were 15 days old or youngerGǪthey stayed longer than those who were not killed. And you are also basically talking about dumbing the game down. Sure we could make it a dumb game and it might get some new subscribers, but my guess is youGÇÖll lose even more of the long time players and you probably wonGÇÖt get enough new players to offset that.
And yes, I know you wonGÇÖt like the youtube video. YouGÇÖll likely try to dismiss it with some weak argument. Please donGÇÖt. IGÇÖm tired of having to keep typing out the same responses again and again. A sample of 80,000 players is more than sufficient. Where I work we have over 5 million customers and we routinely make do with samples of 50,000. In fact, we could go even smaller. We go big because we invariably are asked questions about some specific sub-set of the population. And while a population of 3,000 might be sufficient to come up with summary statistics for the population it will be too small for a specific sub-group. But with 50,000 you are more likely to get a valid sample for the sub-group inside that sample. Further, even if CCPGÇÖs analysis is wrong, being wrong does not make suicide ganking somehow a problem.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:40:22 -
[322] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them. Honestly I find CCP's statistics somewhat romanticised to fit the narration they want to tell - while I'm not suggesting like 60% of all new players face it or something I'm fairly certain it is a bigger factor than that. Sometime around 2014-2015 I was involved in around 10 people trying the game, some I know IRL and some from another forum and atleast 3 of them were suicide ganked a couple of them repeatedly in the first few weeks of playing. Around that time I was working IRL with a bunch of guys that were either in IRC or corps with ties to them who also confirmed a similar story with people they had tried to get into the game.
Wow 10 dudes you know vs. CCP's sample of 80,000.
Yeah, I'm impressed.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:50:48 -
[323] - Quote
To be honest Im amazed how safe the game really is.
As a newbie I accidentally got lost at my first explorer trip. So i thought what the heck, for hours I fumbled around in wormholes scanning and warping (no cloak). Kept my cool, failed 90% of hackings but made it back safe.
Since then I have always explored in WH and losec. Generally players are friendly and helpful.
Been ganked a couple of times, always feeling helpless.
Still, my point is that the first month or two are way too unforgiving.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:52:07 -
[324] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:-Confidence -Progress -Purpose -Excitement
Confidence is the worst part. You are fumbling in the dark for a long, long time as newbie.
Progress and purpose could easily be sped up with ships and tweaks to combat, flying.
Excitement, a hard one. Can a game please everyone, a few or none?
That's great, but how are you going to do that? I would recommend new player friendly organizations like Eve Uni, Karmafleet, Pandemic Horde, Brave. Also, one could shop around for a good corp. This latter approach is harder in that a good corp will help the new players, not leave them to their own devices.
I do not believe you can accomplish any of those things with mechanics changes.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:56:44 -
[325] - Quote
http://kotaku.com/eve-player-gets-revenge-on-griefer-four-years-later-1793393532
Quote:They say revenge is a dish best served cold. In EVE Online player Darvo ThellereGÇÖs case, it was cold as the uncaring vacuum of space.
DarvoGÇÖs story began back in 2013. He was just taking his first steps in the gameGÇÖs massive galaxyGÇöbanding together with other overwhelmed newbiesGÇöwhen a player named Kackpappe decided to give him ****. And by GÇ£give him ****,GÇ¥ I mean he declared war.
GÇ£His goal wasGÇöthis is what he stated to usGÇöto ruin our game experience and harass us until we stop playing,GÇ¥ wrote Darvo on the EVE subreddit. GÇ£We fought backGÇöin kestrels, as the noobs we were. In the end, after a few months of daily harassment, he dropped the war. And I made a promise to him: GÇÿI donGÇÖt know how or when, but the day will come that I will find you and I will take all your stuff.GÇÖGÇ¥
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:58:32 -
[326] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
That's great, but how are you going to do that? I would recommend new player friendly organizations like Eve Uni, Karmafleet, Pandemic Horde, Brave. Also, one could shop around for a good corp. This latter approach is harder in that a good corp will help the new players, not leave them to their own devices.
I do not believe you can accomplish any of those things with mechanics changes.
Still think they should make it less corporate. I would argue that most players want to stick to themselves or play with closest friends and/or spouses.
Build your own cozy spacestation where you could safely store stuff bought with micro-ISK, maybe have a hangar with your beloved ships.
Yeah, a little Second Life vibes into Eve.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28055
|
Posted - 2017.03.17 23:59:28 -
[327] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:How about this.
Make Highsec antigank, let everybody live in harmony and AFK the **** out of this game. That would ruin the economy with a flood of stuff that nobody has put any effort into obtaining, and basically turn hisec into a PvE only shard. It also completely ruins it for everybody that doesn't AFK all of the things.
AFK is not fun, you may as well not be playing at all.
Quote: On the other hand, make Losec so alluring and profitable that you are superwilling to take the risks.
They moved lvl 5 missions to lowsec in an attempt to draw players from hisec in pursuit of the higher rewards; it failed. PI is better in lowsec, mission rewards are better in lowsec, exploration is better in lowsec, anoms are better in lowesec, etc, etc. People still don't go there.
Quote:Skip those lowtier ships. Let newbies get some decent ships and beginner skills. Newbies already have better skills and access to more ships than they have at any time in the past, many of us started playing when there were learning skills, skills you trained in order to train other skills faster, despite a SP speed bonus to 1.5M SP they took months to train; if you didn't train them any skills you did train did so at a vastly reduced rate. We mined in frigates, because the Venture didn't exist, hell many would have exchanged a testicle for a ship like the Venture to mine with.
CCP could start people with millions of SP and access to battleships and they'd still demand more, because they'd still die by the dozen in entertaining fashions. The amusing thing is that the SP isn't as important as knowing how to leverage it properly; it's not what you have, it's what you do with it. Older players are better at most things not because of SP, but because of where that SP is placed and because we know how to leverage it properly.
I think the highest SP on any of my characters is 45M ish, and it's an alt.
Quote:Remove some of that "rock, paper, scissor" mentality from the dogfights. Everything has a counter, this is known as balance. Ship doctrines are constantly evolving and new tactics developed, it's up to you to figure out the counters; you do this by trying and dying, and then having another go.
Quote:How about a panicbutton that will teleport you to nearest highsec space, with cooldown. God no.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.17 23:59:50 -
[328] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them. Honestly I find CCP's statistics somewhat romanticised to fit the narration they want to tell - while I'm not suggesting like 60% of all new players face it or something I'm fairly certain it is a bigger factor than that. Sometime around 2014-2015 I was involved in around 10 people trying the game, some I know IRL and some from another forum and atleast 3 of them were suicide ganked a couple of them repeatedly in the first few weeks of playing. Around that time I was working IRL with a bunch of guys that were either in IRC or corps with ties to them who also confirmed a similar story with people they had tried to get into the game. Wow 10 dudes you know vs. CCP's sample of 80,000. Yeah, I'm impressed.
Be dismissive all you want - I'll be very surprised if I'm completely wrong about this :D sadly its an all to common story that people are dismissive of what I say but end up realising I was on the money all along in the long run. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:01:01 -
[329] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:http://kotaku.com/eve-player-gets-revenge-on-griefer-four-years-later-1793393532 Quote:They say revenge is a dish best served cold. In EVE Online player Darvo ThellereGÇÖs case, it was cold as the uncaring vacuum of space.
DarvoGÇÖs story began back in 2013. He was just taking his first steps in the gameGÇÖs massive galaxyGÇöbanding together with other overwhelmed newbiesGÇöwhen a player named Kackpappe decided to give him ****. And by GÇ£give him ****,GÇ¥ I mean he declared war.
GÇ£His goal wasGÇöthis is what he stated to usGÇöto ruin our game experience and harass us until we stop playing,GÇ¥ wrote Darvo on the EVE subreddit. GÇ£We fought backGÇöin kestrels, as the noobs we were. In the end, after a few months of daily harassment, he dropped the war. And I made a promise to him: GÇÿI donGÇÖt know how or when, but the day will come that I will find you and I will take all your stuff.GÇÖGÇ¥
No, these sale pitches wont work.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:03:47 -
[330] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:http://kotaku.com/eve-player-gets-revenge-on-griefer-four-years-later-1793393532 Quote:They say revenge is a dish best served cold. In EVE Online player Darvo ThellereGÇÖs case, it was cold as the uncaring vacuum of space.
DarvoGÇÖs story began back in 2013. He was just taking his first steps in the gameGÇÖs massive galaxyGÇöbanding together with other overwhelmed newbiesGÇöwhen a player named Kackpappe decided to give him ****. And by GÇ£give him ****,GÇ¥ I mean he declared war.
GÇ£His goal wasGÇöthis is what he stated to usGÇöto ruin our game experience and harass us until we stop playing,GÇ¥ wrote Darvo on the EVE subreddit. GÇ£We fought backGÇöin kestrels, as the noobs we were. In the end, after a few months of daily harassment, he dropped the war. And I made a promise to him: GÇÿI donGÇÖt know how or when, but the day will come that I will find you and I will take all your stuff.GÇÖGÇ¥
These things happen :D some friends of mine had their POSes knocked over 3 times in a row in war decs - on the 4th time with the POS in RF and no PVP experience the CEO berated the entire corp to sitting on the gate into the system in armageddons - griefers jump in, jumped back out again and never came at them again without a single shot fired.
Though they then moved to wormhole space to avoid war decs and my alliance at the time (unknown to me until it was nearly over) then razed their wh system to the ground. |
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:07:26 -
[331] - Quote
@Jonah Gravenstein
You right. Here is where you oldies now what you are talkin about.
Im still amazed why newbies are afraid to enter WH and losec. Maybe this is where the focus should be.
Every now and then Im completely alone in a losec system, scanning and hacking.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:08:40 -
[332] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and according to CCP new players are suicide ganked with a probability of about 1%. So suicide ganking is not a big problem for them. Honestly I find CCP's statistics somewhat romanticised to fit the narration they want to tell - while I'm not suggesting like 60% of all new players face it or something I'm fairly certain it is a bigger factor than that. Sometime around 2014-2015 I was involved in around 10 people trying the game, some I know IRL and some from another forum and atleast 3 of them were suicide ganked a couple of them repeatedly in the first few weeks of playing. Around that time I was working IRL with a bunch of guys that were either in IRC or corps with ties to them who also confirmed a similar story with people they had tried to get into the game. Wow 10 dudes you know vs. CCP's sample of 80,000. Yeah, I'm impressed. Be dismissive all you want - I'll be very surprised if I'm completely wrong about this :D sadly its an all to common story that people are dismissive of what I say but end up realising I was on the money all along in the long run.
Of course, I am dismissive. Using a sample of 10 vs. 80,000. Sure clusters can and do happen. But looking at the cluster and then trying to draw an inference from it strikes me as suffering from the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:09:20 -
[333] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote: No, these sale pitches wont work.
Yeah sadly a romanticised vision that only actually happens rarely. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:12:31 -
[334] - Quote
Okay.
The most intimidating thing in Eve is combat/dogfighting.
If there would be some solution for newbies to not die in 99% of the encounters would benefit everybody.
As said, some kind of flee or fight option.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:13:05 -
[335] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:http://kotaku.com/eve-player-gets-revenge-on-griefer-four-years-later-1793393532 Quote:They say revenge is a dish best served cold. In EVE Online player Darvo ThellereGÇÖs case, it was cold as the uncaring vacuum of space.
DarvoGÇÖs story began back in 2013. He was just taking his first steps in the gameGÇÖs massive galaxyGÇöbanding together with other overwhelmed newbiesGÇöwhen a player named Kackpappe decided to give him ****. And by GÇ£give him ****,GÇ¥ I mean he declared war.
GÇ£His goal wasGÇöthis is what he stated to usGÇöto ruin our game experience and harass us until we stop playing,GÇ¥ wrote Darvo on the EVE subreddit. GÇ£We fought backGÇöin kestrels, as the noobs we were. In the end, after a few months of daily harassment, he dropped the war. And I made a promise to him: GÇÿI donGÇÖt know how or when, but the day will come that I will find you and I will take all your stuff.GÇÖGÇ¥ No, these sale pitches wont work.
It wasn't a sales pitch I linked it because it was a guy finally getting his revenge.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:14:15 -
[336] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay.
The most intimidating thing in Eve is combat/dogfighting.
If there would be some solution for newbies to not die in 99% of the encounters would benefit everybody.
As said, some kind of flee or fight option.
Dying is one way you learn.....
Why do you want to take that away? You want to keep new players ignorant?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:15:26 -
[337] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Of course, I am dismissive. Using a sample of 10 vs. 80,000. Sure clusters can and do happen. But looking at the cluster and then trying to draw an inference from it strikes me as suffering from the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
Figures can be manipulated to show just about anything. You should know this. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:22:21 -
[338] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay.
The most intimidating thing in Eve is combat/dogfighting.
If there would be some solution for newbies to not die in 99% of the encounters would benefit everybody.
As said, some kind of flee or fight option. Dying is one way you learn..... Why do you want to take that away? You want to keep new players ignorant?
Not really. Dying should sting.
Mostly its the hustle to get all your **** together again. Takes a long time (again) before you have things like buying all equipment, ammo, ship, everything back in order and back to what you were doin before death.
As a newbie you have limited ISK and a really bad workflow.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28056
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:24:27 -
[339] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:@Jonah Gravenstein
You right. Here is where you oldies now what you are talkin about.
Im still amazed why newbies are afraid to enter WH and losec. Maybe this is where the focus should be. I would hazard an educated guess that the retention rate for newbies that join from OOG communities such as Reddit and SA and go to nullsec when they start is far higher than that of those who never leave hisec. Part of it is the support network that the OOG communities provide for their newbies, in terms of knowledge, attitudes to explosions and SRP's.
In hisec players are left to fend for themselves, they often receive poor information from people, who have often never left hisec themselves, in the NPC corps. Many of the player run corps in hisec are lead by people who are poor leaders, either through lack of knowledge or just being not cut out to lead. In short hisec is probably what drives more newbies away than anything.
That said, there are knowledgeable people and social groups in the NPC corps that provide many of the advantages you get with well established corps that like newbies, and there are well lead hisec player corps that do the same, it's just a shame that so many never find them.
Quote:Every now and then Im completely alone in a losec system, scanning and hacking. Despite being a mainly hisec player I do my PI in lowsec, because it absolutely sucks in hisec.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6236
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:25:02 -
[340] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay.
The most intimidating thing in Eve is combat/dogfighting.
If there would be some solution for newbies to not die in 99% of the encounters would benefit everybody.
As said, some kind of flee or fight option. Dying is one way you learn..... Why do you want to take that away? You want to keep new players ignorant? Not really. Dying should sting. Mostly its the hustle to get all your **** together again. Takes a long time (again) before you have things like buying all equipment, ammo, ship, everything back in order and back to what you were doin before death. As a newbie you have limited ISK and a really bad workflow.
First rule of EVE, do not fly anything you can't afford to lose. If you can't afford to buy two you shouldn't buy one.
And dying means you screwed up...it is up to the player to figure out how he could have done better/differently and try again. Trial-and-error. Ever think about why they call it trial-and-error vs. trial-and-success?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:26:33 -
[341] - Quote
Rroff wrote: require the resources of an experienced player with either lots of alts or an active corp behind them to carry out - which many newer players might not have access to.
Yep, this is the hard part too. You are too small a cog as a newbie.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6237
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:27:27 -
[342] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I would hazard an educated guess that the retention rate for newbies that join from OOG communities such as Reddit and SA and go to nullsec when they start is far higher than that of those who never leave hisec. Part of it is the support network that the OOG communities provide for their newbies, in terms of knowledge, attitudes to explosions and SRP's.
In hisec players are left to fend for themselves, they often receive poor information from people, who have often never left hisec themselves, in the NPC corps. Many of the player run corps in hisec are lead by people who are poor leaders, either through lack of knowledge or just being not cut out to lead. In short hisec is probably what drives more newbies away than anything.
That said, there are knowledgeable people and social groups in the NPC corps that provide many of the advantages you get with well established corps that like newbies, and there are well lead hisec player corps that do the same, it's just a shame that so many never find them.
Not empty quoting. Having been a member of the Imperium Goons are very good at supporting new players coming in from Something Awful.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:30:07 -
[343] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay.
The most intimidating thing in Eve is combat/dogfighting.
If there would be some solution for newbies to not die in 99% of the encounters would benefit everybody.
As said, some kind of flee or fight option. Dying is one way you learn..... Why do you want to take that away? You want to keep new players ignorant? Not really. Dying should sting. Mostly its the hustle to get all your **** together again. Takes a long time (again) before you have things like buying all equipment, ammo, ship, everything back in order and back to what you were doin before death. As a newbie you have limited ISK and a really bad workflow. First rule of EVE, do not fly anything you can't afford to lose. If you can't afford to buy two you shouldn't buy one. And dying means you screwed up...it is up to the player to figure out how he could have done better/differently and try again. Trial-and-error. Ever think about why they call it trial-and-error vs. trial-and-success?
What I meant was that a newbie doesnt have the experience or ISK to have a small fleet ready to access with jumpclones and stuff like that, Its a hustle to die.
Hard enough to remember what ship and equipment you had (exaggerating) And the grueling "what if I equip this"- feeling
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6237
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:30:30 -
[344] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Rroff wrote: require the resources of an experienced player with either lots of alts or an active corp behind them to carry out - which many newer players might not have access to. Yep, this is the hard part too. You are too small a cog as a newbie.
Big things need small cogs too. Like I said Goons are very helpful for people new to the game from the Something Awful forums and then there are groups like Karmafleet, also in the same alliance as goons. They'll help with training both in getting the skill books and in what to train so you can get into a useful ship ASAP.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28056
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:31:37 -
[345] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Rroff wrote: require the resources of an experienced player with either lots of alts or an active corp behind them to carry out - which many newer players might not have access to. Yep, this is the hard part too. You are too small a cog as a newbie. Big things need small cogs too. Like I said Goons are very helpful for people new to the game from the Something Awful forums and then there are groups like Karmafleet, also in the same alliance as goons. They'll help with training both in getting the skill books and in what to train so you can get into a useful ship ASAP. A ship that they'll probably give you by the dozen, fully fitted, until you get on your feet..
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6237
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:39:05 -
[346] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay.
The most intimidating thing in Eve is combat/dogfighting.
If there would be some solution for newbies to not die in 99% of the encounters would benefit everybody.
As said, some kind of flee or fight option. Dying is one way you learn..... Why do you want to take that away? You want to keep new players ignorant? Not really. Dying should sting. Mostly its the hustle to get all your **** together again. Takes a long time (again) before you have things like buying all equipment, ammo, ship, everything back in order and back to what you were doin before death. As a newbie you have limited ISK and a really bad workflow. First rule of EVE, do not fly anything you can't afford to lose. If you can't afford to buy two you shouldn't buy one. And dying means you screwed up...it is up to the player to figure out how he could have done better/differently and try again. Trial-and-error. Ever think about why they call it trial-and-error vs. trial-and-success? What I meant was that a newbie doesnt have the experience or ISK to have a small fleet ready to access with jumpclones and stuff like that, Its a hustle to die. Hard enough to remember what ship and equipment you had (exaggerating) And the grueling "what if I equip this"- feeling
CCP has actually made this alot less burdensome. Back when I started it was more or less "Here is your noob ship, now **** off."
Now the NPE throws all kinds of stuff at you is my understanding....so they have changed that....and look subscriptions are falling.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:40:27 -
[347] - Quote
See you guys, goin to bed.
Have to admit, Im a soloplayer. My views are that of a lone wolf.
Still, bouncing ideas should be good. Applied for Pandemic Horde and approached Brave Newbies but I never took the step.
P.S - I said losec in my posts, meant nullsec.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6237
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 00:40:53 -
[348] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Rroff wrote: require the resources of an experienced player with either lots of alts or an active corp behind them to carry out - which many newer players might not have access to. Yep, this is the hard part too. You are too small a cog as a newbie. Big things need small cogs too. Like I said Goons are very helpful for people new to the game from the Something Awful forums and then there are groups like Karmafleet, also in the same alliance as goons. They'll help with training both in getting the skill books and in what to train so you can get into a useful ship ASAP. A ship that they'll probably give you by the dozen, fully fitted, until you get on your feet..
Yup, with goons it likely meant you'd have been skilling for something like FuckYou Fleet doctrine ships....which they'd give to you at a nice fat discount.
And if you go logi, you can actually make is dying in those....but if you die in those alot you are likely doing something wrong.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 01:11:21 -
[349] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Now the NPE throws all kinds of stuff at you is my understanding....so they have changed that....and look subscriptions are falling.
One of the reasons I think is that "raids" are the in thing at the moment and Eve doesn't really cater for that. If you look broadly at the streamers and forums, etc. for games that are approximately in the same group as eve its all about them raids. |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 02:54:22 -
[350] - Quote
Before FTP Alpha, Weekend user base was lucky to hit above 30 or mid 30 thousand users. Now, weekend users consistently hit mid 40 thousand or more. While I can't say that Alpha has been a huge success, it has grown the game. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6237
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 04:45:51 -
[351] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Now the NPE throws all kinds of stuff at you is my understanding....so they have changed that....and look subscriptions are falling.
One of the reasons I think is that "raids" are the in thing at the moment and Eve doesn't really cater for that. If you look broadly at the streamers and forums, etc. for games that are approximately in the same group as eve its all about them raids.
"Raids" WFT is that?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Aesthetus Liberalis
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 05:44:29 -
[352] - Quote
Hey guys, I doubt my input is very valuable here. I've been playing for a week. I've heard about EVE for years, but always resisted starting because i was told that the game had a very high barrier to entry and was dominated by gigantic alliances.
Nonetheless i've decided to start playing it and have been enjoying my first week, trying out the different play styles to see what I like. I'm even planning on buying Omega with my next pay check. I just want to tell you this from a newbies perspective, one thing that really sucks is people like "CODE" who seem to actively have it out for new players like myself, as well as many of you here who i've read in this thread and in other topics on the forums.
Look, i get that this game is about blowing up space ships. The threat of being ganked isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is being told that i'm somehow detrimental to the game when I AFK mine in my Venture while cooking dinner in the few hours that i have to play after work. Or that auto-piloting through the confusing warp gate system somehow makes me a negative influence. And it's that sort of mentality that made me considering quitting after about my second day when I got a bounty put on my head simply for trying to learn the game.
You're more than welcome to flame me for my opinion, I probably shouldn't be stepping in to the forums with people who've been playing for 10+ years. Just my 2c. Thanks. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6237
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 06:03:30 -
[353] - Quote
Aesthetus Liberalis wrote:Hey guys, I doubt my input is very valuable here. I've been playing for a week. I've heard about EVE for years, but always resisted starting because i was told that the game had a very high barrier to entry and was dominated by gigantic alliances.
Nonetheless i've decided to start playing it and have been enjoying my first week, trying out the different play styles to see what I like. I'm even planning on buying Omega with my next pay check. I just want to tell you this from a newbies perspective, one thing that really sucks is people like "CODE" who seem to actively have it out for new players like myself, as well as many of you here who i've read in this thread and in other topics on the forums.
Look, i get that this game is about blowing up space ships. The threat of being ganked isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is being told that i'm somehow detrimental to the game when I AFK mine in my Venture while cooking dinner in the few hours that i have to play after work. Or that auto-piloting through the confusing warp gate system somehow makes me a negative influence. And it's that sort of mentality that made me considering quitting after about my second day when I got a bounty put on my head simply for trying to learn the game.
You're more than welcome to flame me for my opinion, I probably shouldn't be stepping in to the forums with people who've been playing for 10+ years. Just my 2c. Thanks.
CODE. go after miners and freighters for the most part. If you do mine, do it in a quiet system, watch local, and if somebody show up in the belt you are in GTFO if they are in a destroyer. Also, use your standings to set CODE. red, makes them easier to see in local and one your overview. And make sure local is always visible in terms of your chat channels so you can always see it.
As for gates and where you are going try dotlan
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/
And when travelling try not to use autopilot.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
105
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 09:52:35 -
[354] - Quote
Aesthetus Liberalis wrote:The threat of being ganked isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is being told that i'm somehow detrimental to the game when I AFK mine in my Venture while cooking dinner in the few hours that i have to play after work. Or that auto-piloting through the confusing warp gate system somehow makes me a negative influence. And it's that sort of mentality that made me considering quitting after about my second day when I got a bounty put on my head simply for trying to learn the game. A wise man once told me that everything you do in EvE is pvp. If you think of it, you'll see how that makes sense for trading, ratting or even mining. But it's the same when you just talk to another player, or even when you post on the forum.
You may not see how CODE profits from certain aspects of who they are... but believe me they do. Don't take it personal, try to enjoy it. Many of us here particularly like the roughness of EvE, and it's various flavors.
If you take my very biased advice, I'd suggest you to do things that teach you a lot. And as far as I know, highsec mining only teaches how to not get ganked - mr Pech already outlined it's entire curriculum in a few lines.
Ahh, and bounties do absolutely nothing, besides making you look cool if it's high enough.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
116
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 10:06:18 -
[355] - Quote
Aesthetus Liberalis wrote:Hey guys, I doubt my input is very valuable here. I've been playing for a week. I've heard about EVE for years, but always resisted starting because i was told that the game had a very high barrier to entry and was dominated by gigantic alliances.
Nonetheless i've decided to start playing it and have been enjoying my first week, trying out the different play styles to see what I like. I'm even planning on buying Omega with my next pay check. I just want to tell you this from a newbies perspective, one thing that really sucks is people like "CODE" who seem to actively have it out for new players like myself, as well as many of you here who i've read in this thread and in other topics on the forums.
Look, i get that this game is about blowing up space ships. The threat of being ganked isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is being told that i'm somehow detrimental to the game when I AFK mine in my Venture while cooking dinner in the few hours that i have to play after work. Or that auto-piloting through the confusing warp gate system somehow makes me a negative influence. And it's that sort of mentality that made me considering quitting after about my second day when I got a bounty put on my head simply for trying to learn the game.
You're more than welcome to flame me for my opinion, I probably shouldn't be stepping in to the forums with people who've been playing for 10+ years. Just my 2c. Thanks.
This is a good point. If you cant cloak and are inside WH or lo-null then you basically have to lock the room and wear diapers. Its so intense and on the edge for a newbie, besides that you know you are dead if someone shows up.
This game lacks any tier or level system that most games have that new players come from.
There is the tutorial -level1, then you are thrown in to -level1000.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 10:07:47 -
[356] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Now the NPE throws all kinds of stuff at you is my understanding....so they have changed that....and look subscriptions are falling.
One of the reasons I think is that "raids" are the in thing at the moment and Eve doesn't really cater for that. If you look broadly at the streamers and forums, etc. for games that are approximately in the same group as eve its all about them raids. "Raids" WFT is that?
Well not just raids but canned content people can jump into or form a team for and do over and over and over and over again seems to have become one of the staples of the genre in general for the last 3-4 years and incursions aside Eve doesn't really cater for it and incursions have their own complications when it comes to catering for it. In some ways the gameplay is anathema to Eve but a small amount might be an enabler to getting some players deeper into Eve instead of quitting i.e. fleet participation earlier on can propel them towards corporations, etc. |
Nate Hill
Rocket No. 9
52
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 11:44:50 -
[357] - Quote
Only because of lacking of interesting PVE content for newbies. And highsec is highly dangerous for miners which is a very important career for newbies.
You all can definitely say it's natural selection.
|
Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 15:47:53 -
[358] - Quote
Aesthetus Liberalis wrote:Hey guys, I doubt my input is very valuable here. I've been playing for a week. I've heard about EVE for years, but always resisted starting because i was told that the game had a very high barrier to entry and was dominated by gigantic alliances.
Nonetheless i've decided to start playing it and have been enjoying my first week, trying out the different play styles to see what I like. I'm even planning on buying Omega with my next pay check. I just want to tell you this from a newbies perspective, one thing that really sucks is people like "CODE" who seem to actively have it out for new players like myself, as well as many of you here who i've read in this thread and in other topics on the forums.
Look, i get that this game is about blowing up space ships. The threat of being ganked isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is being told that i'm somehow detrimental to the game when I AFK mine in my Venture while cooking dinner in the few hours that i have to play after work. Or that auto-piloting through the confusing warp gate system somehow makes me a negative influence. And it's that sort of mentality that made me considering quitting after about my second day when I got a bounty put on my head simply for trying to learn the game.
You're more than welcome to flame me for my opinion, I probably shouldn't be stepping in to the forums with people who've been playing for 10+ years. Just my 2c. Thanks. I felt the same about CODE and the way it works in highsec. Still don't like the fact that you cannot do anything to counter their gank but they can strike first. The worst are in my opinion the Tornado gankers at main trade hubs who are scanning every ship waiting for a high load industrial then blast him on alpha, they they get themself podded, respawn at CONCORD station where they sell few tags to restore their security status and then they travel in capsule back to trade hub where they enter new Tornado and start over. Every 15minutes over and over.
Anyway - what CODE claims are just a nonsenses. It is a roleplay bullcrap that just cover the fact that they target only newbies who mine afk or semi-afk or those hauling some goods. What they claim is not endorsed by game creators - they are just a group of players that decided they will make their own doctrine and they will enforce it by suicide ganking. And therefore you don't have to take it seriously.
There was said a lot of their activities, some believe they are discouraging new players from the game, some say they only filter players who would not enjoy eve anyway. Be it as it is, what they are doing is fine by game rules and so they will keep doing that.
Don't get discouraged by them, if they destroy your venture they actually lose more than you - and ventures are lately the only thing they seems to be able to kill. Venture costs a 200k ISK and fit costs another 200k up to 2milions depending on the gear. If you want to mine afk then its better to use a cheaper gear especially if you mine in area where CODE ganks on regular basis. And they do not attack ships flying on autopilot unless they carry high ISK value of goods or its a capsule. They enjoy killing capsules but if you travel in rookie ship/corvette they will not attack you (unless you will carry skill injector in them ). If you are trying to haul some goods in industrial on autopilot then you should not carry more than 10mil ISK worth inside, otherwise you will get ganked on the road most likely. |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 15:59:35 -
[359] - Quote
Vokan Narkar wrote: There was said a lot of their activities, some believe they are discouraging new players from the game, some say they only filter players who would not enjoy eve anyway. Be it as it is, what they are doing is fine by game rules and so they will keep doing that.
Players should never be gatekeepers or who can and can't play a game.
But yeah its all nonsense if they really embraced the crap they spout they'd have no problem with measures that balanced the consequences and made highsec a more dynamic place to play.
|
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1195
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 16:01:39 -
[360] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Nobody in their right mind would play a game where you are inferior for all time. Alpha is to lure new players into Omega, nothing more nothing less. Since it takes months to become decent at anything players find it hard to open their wallet.
So, either keep the game as is and slowly loose players who eventually will fall out of interest (way of life) or make newbies feel great and capable from the very start. And how exactly do you do that? SP? And when they die to another player or group of players because they shitfit their ship? Lots of ISK? And when they start burning through it? Sorry, but your suggestion is about as helpful as, "Lets save the game by saving the game." Im not sitting around the table at CCP. How about skipping those silly weeklong skilltrainingsessions. Have a set number of skills available at any time. Like inplants without the gazillion cost. Yeah, everything interesting doesnt have to cost a gazillion. Why not give players a break, constant fear of dying is not pleasant in any game. None of this will do what you seek to accomplish, IMO. We need to make new players feel empowered! Throw SP at them. Throw ISK at them. Throw ships at them. None of that actually addresses the problem you think you have identified. And what constant fear of dying. HS is pretty damn safe already. I mean **** on a stick. Look at this. And this. In that last link I convert the amount of ISK value moving around the Forge into US dollars. It is a $33 million. Tell me again about this fear of constantly dying. So, you prefer suggestion 1, dont change anything and let players slowly fade away? Im brainstorming here, what exactly is the point of monthlong skilltrainings? Endagame? To intimidate newbies? Why do you have to go to "work" (mining, corporate cannonfodder) for weeks just to get a decent ship or skillbook. Its like Monopoly in space. Work or perish.
Funny thing is, you don't have to do any of that anymore. Not even the skill training.
Also, people have been saying "oh CCP, you better do X or else the game is just gonna slowly die" for like a decade and a half, so it doesn't really stir anyone, sorry. :)
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1195
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 16:11:26 -
[361] - Quote
Nate Hill wrote:...highsec is highly dangerous for miners...
\o/ Mission accomplished!
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 16:14:03 -
[362] - Quote
Anyway to the topic.
Yes, not many new players sticked with EVE after trying it on alpha account but that is not an alpha clone system fault.
I'm currently on alpha and while I was omega and intent to activate it later I do enjoy the alpha and I found out it actually allows a lot of things. Nothing you can do will be 100% effective but its possible to have a fun on alpha.
I tried PvP on alpha and its not bad either. If you can gather 5+ group of peoples you can run destroyer or cruiser fleets and be even able to win a fight as long as you outnumber your enemy . In the corp I was at we were using a t1 Trasher fit, fit that can fly even alpha for hit&run tactic in highsec wardec and it was very effective.
I don't think alpha is a fail. It probably didn't met the expectations but the game is now better for a new players and veterans (who doesn't have to worry about activating plex in time anymore etc.)
The only thing I would reproach is that Caldari, Amarr and Minmatar alpha clones are in disadvantage when it comes to hauling. The miasmos, epithal and kryos (hoarded too maybe) should be available to all races not just gallente. Make them a special edition ships or something. I don't want to have a gallente alt just to be able to transsport mined ore in more than 5000m3 ... |
Rivet Alene
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 16:20:30 -
[363] - Quote
Hi all,
Just wanted to give my perspective of being new, noob, confused, poor, alfa and in all senses underdog in this game.
I am a newcomer to this game, trying to get by as I can, mostly by running level 1 missions to get enough IKS to fill my railguns
I don't go to null-sec, low-sec, whatever-sec solely because of the belief that NPC's (almost anything drifting around, actually) will insta-kill me; So what's the point.
As I understand it, I need to train skills I don't understand, for several months, before I can actually do something in "less-than-high-sec" (well, besides getting killed, that is ) My hope is, I don't get bored with this high-sec-grinding, before that.
I don't mind the PVP - Got killed once, and the attacker ("Shadow Healer" or something) took the time to explain to me what I had done wrong and what I could do to prevent being such an easy target; Learned more in these 10 minutes than a whole week of mission running . It's just that I can't really afford this "loose ship, buy new ship, buy fitting, rinse and repeat", if it happens too often. I'm a casual player (Big house, Demanding job, Big and Demanding wife) so cannot invest endless hours mining to get the ISK
Really appreciate what was mentioned earlier, that goonswarm (is that a coorporation?) hands you ships for free, but I feel I should somehow be able to fund my own ships and pay for my own mistakes.
Kind Regards |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28062
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 18:53:16 -
[364] - Quote
Rivet Alene wrote:As I understand it, I need to train skills I don't understand, for several months, before I can actually do something in "less-than-high-sec" (well, besides getting killed, that is ) My hope is, I don't get bored with this high-sec-grinding, before that. Wrong mindset, you can live anywhere in Eve from day one, however it's very unlikely that you can do it alone.
Don't get stuck in the fallacy of I need X SP to go somewhere, it'll kill the game for you. If you want to avoid the grind, get your ass out to nullsec. Pandemic Horde, Brave Newbies, TEST Alliance and KarmaFleet all welcome players like yourself with open arms. You won't be alone, you won't be struggling for isk, you'll have access to years of accumulated knowledge about everything Eve; you will get used as cannon fodder, you will make friends, you will explode and you will have fun.
Quote:I don't mind the PVP - Got killed once, and the attacker ("Shadow Healer" or something) took the time to explain to me what I had done wrong and what I could do to prevent being such an easy target; Learned more in these 10 minutes than a whole week of mission running . You learnt an important lesson, namely that the bad guys are often more than willing to explain how they managed to kill you, and how you can make it harder for them to do it next time.
For any other newbies reading this.
Ask questions, after being explosively separated from your ship offer a GF in local and you'll often get a positive response; whine and rage and you will be an object of ridicule; if you get podded this also applies to sending an Evemail.
Quote:It's just that I can't really afford this "loose ship, buy new ship, buy fitting, rinse and repeat", if it happens too often. I'm a casual player (Big house, Demanding job, Big and Demanding wife) so cannot invest endless hours mining to get the ISK If you enjoy mining go for it, but be aware that it's the McJob of Eve and that the refining taxes can be painful, the connections skill will reduce them somewhat as well as possibly open up the next level of missions to you.
If you're short of isk and haven't already done so, hit f12 ingame and look for the tutorial agents, completing those gives free ships and a decent amount of isk to get you started, as well as going someway towards standings (see connections skill). The Sisters of Eve Epic Arc is also worth doing for the mission rewards, which are 30ish Million IIRC.
Many of us are casual players, kids, work, wife aggro, bills etc; personally I rarely manage more than a few hours a week these days due to RL commitments.
Quote:Really appreciate what was mentioned earlier, that goonswarm (is that a coorporation?) hands you ships for free, but I feel I should somehow be able to fund my own ships and pay for my own mistakes.
Kind Regards Goonswarm are one of the bogeymen of Eve, everybody loves to hate them; despite claiming to be terrible at Eve they're successful at it too.
Ship replacement is up to you, if you join a corp with an Ship Replacement Program it's generally confined to PvP ops and certain fits, however as a newbie you'll get given frigates etc to get involved with those PvP ops without being constrained by your wallet; holding down an expensive kill for everybody else tends to make your financial situation a little less tight too.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6240
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 19:16:00 -
[365] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
This is a good point. If you cant cloak and are inside WH or lo-null then you basically have to lock the room and wear diapers. Its so intense and on the edge for a newbie, besides that you know you are dead if someone shows up.
This game lacks any tier or level system that most games have that new players come from.
There is the tutorial -level1, then you are thrown in to -level1000.
Of course it lacks tiers/levels it is an open classless system. The tutorial is there to teach you at least some basic elements of the game and now it gives a boost in terms of starting assets.
And no it isn't "level 1" then "level 1,000" it is just a big...."stew". Some players have lots of SP, some have lots of ISK, some both. And the longer you play the more "human capital" about the game. So yes, the guy playing 7 years is going to have a large stock of human capital whereas the new player won't. And there is pretty much nothing you can do about it. Even if you were to somehow force new players to sit and watch hours of instructional videos there are still going to be some elements of the game that are best learned by doing them.
But there is also a misconception in your posts Trasch. It is not simply new player vs. old player. That is not at all the reality of the game, at least not entirely and when and where it does happen is pretty small. For example, GSF is a combination of new and old players, and yes there will be competition inside GSF there will also be cooperation. And GSF will compete with other entities in game as well.
I would be interested in seeing what retention is like for new players who come into the game and go straight into GoonWaffe on day one. I bet it is quite good compared to the player who comes into the game and tries to "lone wolf it" or just simply ignores 99.99% of the other players. Why is there this difference? The GoonWaffe guy is coming in with a significant support network. Hell, there is a damn good chance that after his first fleet he could have a billion ISK...especially if he says something on comms that is hilarious and also wrong. Everyone laughs and the FC says, "Everyone give the new guy some ISK." No **** that happens.
The guy who tries to play the game by himself....he is setting himself up for near constant frustration. Can't fly this, can't fly that. Have to wait to do this or that. Struggling to get ISK. His Goon counterpart has an organization that is going to give him lots of advice on what to train first, how to use a given ship better, how he can start making ISK right away (yeah not alot, but they are laying the foundation for better things to come). Goons are great at seeding their NS market. And whatever our new Goon can't find something on the local market there are ways to essentially order it not unlike Amazon. And all of this was set up by older more experienced players.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6240
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 19:19:42 -
[366] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Now the NPE throws all kinds of stuff at you is my understanding....so they have changed that....and look subscriptions are falling.
One of the reasons I think is that "raids" are the in thing at the moment and Eve doesn't really cater for that. If you look broadly at the streamers and forums, etc. for games that are approximately in the same group as eve its all about them raids. "Raids" WFT is that? Well not just raids but canned content people can jump into or form a team for and do over and over and over and over again seems to have become one of the staples of the genre in general for the last 3-4 years and incursions aside Eve doesn't really cater for it and incursions have their own complications when it comes to catering for it. In some ways the gameplay is anathema to Eve but a small amount might be an enabler to getting some players deeper into Eve instead of quitting i.e. fleet participation earlier on can propel them towards corporations, etc.
This is not WoW or some other MMO. This is EVE. Here the players drive the content. The wars, big and small, the intrigue the plotting the backstabbing, etc. Some of the most fun I have had in game is when the **** really goes against "my side". In those instances there are usually no end to the fleets I can get in and the targets are plentiful. Some of the battles even make the non-gamer news.
And read my last post to Trasch.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
581
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 19:24:45 -
[367] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:[..] Some of the most fun I have had in game is when the **** really goes against "my side". In those instances there are usually no end to the fleets I can get in and the targets are plentiful. [..]
ehi... i thought that goons usually stay docked up and spin their ships... has something changed recently?
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6241
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 19:26:20 -
[368] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[..] Some of the most fun I have had in game is when the **** really goes against "my side". In those instances there are usually no end to the fleets I can get in and the targets are plentiful. [..] ehi... i thought that goons usually stay docked up and spin their ships... has something changed recently?
No, we have ship spinning contests. The person who gets to 100 spins first gets to log off and go to bed.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
581
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 19:32:55 -
[369] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[..] Some of the most fun I have had in game is when the **** really goes against "my side". In those instances there are usually no end to the fleets I can get in and the targets are plentiful. [..] ehi... i thought that goons usually stay docked up and spin their ships... has something changed recently? No, we have ship spinning contests. The person who gets to 100 spins first gets to log off and go to bed.
lovely lovely meta indeed |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 19:57:52 -
[370] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
This is not WoW or some other MMO. This is EVE. Here the players drive the content. The wars, big and small, the intrigue the plotting the backstabbing, etc. Some of the most fun I have had in game is when the **** really goes against "my side". In those instances there are usually no end to the fleets I can get in and the targets are plentiful. Some of the battles even make the non-gamer news.
And read my last post to Trasch.
You can wax lyrical about that stuff but again for many new players if won't be something they experience before they form an opinion of the game.
I'm not advocating turning it into WoW or other MMOs but borrowing a little from some similar games could go a long way to pushing the activity levels and new player retention upwards rather than the current tailing off trend and bridge the gap between the initial experience and the fuller eve experience.
When I started the game, I had friends/family in PL and a group from another forum I frequent to help me through the first few weeks - without that I very much doubt I'd have gone on to spend nearly 6 years subscribed to the game - I think people underestimate what it can be like for people who don't come into the game through entities like SA and Reddit, etc. |
|
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
582
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 20:00:12 -
[371] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
This is not WoW or some other MMO. This is EVE. Here the players drive the content. The wars, big and small, the intrigue the plotting the backstabbing, etc. Some of the most fun I have had in game is when the **** really goes against "my side". In those instances there are usually no end to the fleets I can get in and the targets are plentiful. Some of the battles even make the non-gamer news.
And read my last post to Trasch.
You can wax lyrical about that stuff but again for many new players if won't be something they experience before they form an opinion of the game. I'm not advocating turning it into WoW or other MMOs but borrowing a little from some similar games could go a long way to pushing the activity levels and new player retention upwards rather than the current tailing off trend and bridge the gap between the initial experience and the fuller eve experience. When I started the game, I had friends/family in PL and a group from another forum I frequent to help me through the first few weeks - without that I very much doubt I'd have gone on to spend nearly 6 years subscribed to the game - I think people underestimate what it can be like for people who don't come into the game through entities like SA and Reddit, etc.
that's why we push them in NOT NPC CORPS then they must be lucky enough to join a good one
EDIT: for reference https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6877848#post6877848 |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6242
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 20:21:56 -
[372] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
This is not WoW or some other MMO. This is EVE. Here the players drive the content. The wars, big and small, the intrigue the plotting the backstabbing, etc. Some of the most fun I have had in game is when the **** really goes against "my side". In those instances there are usually no end to the fleets I can get in and the targets are plentiful. Some of the battles even make the non-gamer news.
And read my last post to Trasch.
You can wax lyrical about that stuff but again for many new players if won't be something they experience before they form an opinion of the game. I'm not advocating turning it into WoW or other MMOs but borrowing a little from some similar games could go a long way to pushing the activity levels and new player retention upwards rather than the current tailing off trend and bridge the gap between the initial experience and the fuller eve experience. When I started the game, I had friends/family in PL and a group from another forum I frequent to help me through the first few weeks - without that I very much doubt I'd have gone on to spend nearly 6 years subscribed to the game - I think people underestimate what it can be like for people who don't come into the game through entities like SA and Reddit, etc.
I did not come in via Reddit, SA or anything else. I came in because I saw an ad somewhere and thought, "Hey cool." I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone.
So I am (or was) the new player you are describing while you were not. This fact is at least a little bit ironic. You sit there typing out, "No, new players they can't make it on their own, look at me." And I say, "Yes, they can look at me." You didn't go through the experience you describe whereas I did and made it.
Do I want the game to borrow from WoW? No. My guess it will simply result in new players putting off finding a good corp/alliance and then leaving the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Fluffy Moe
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 20:22:09 -
[373] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".
Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it). I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.
Rather than continuing to gimp the "Alpha experience" CCP should be looking for ways to incentivize players to subscribe and become Omegas. So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated.
I disagree with you completely. I have both Omega and Alpha accounts here and I play multiple MMORPGs, this is not the only one.
I also have 2 alts that play quite a lot with the actual, new, alpha players. The main problem with the alpha state here is that overall game mechanics wise it is comparable to that of World of Warcraft. Yup, you heard it right and correct. Whereas it needs to be comparable to that of GW2.
That overall difference in functionality is gigantic. The alpha state here is more like a "free demo" not an actual playable way to maintain a main character, that's the problem. And a lot of alphas, a fairly large percentage, are simply alts.
The skill injectors are great, as they are a tool for new players to catch up a bit and I would take them a bit further, the 2 things in particular that come to my mind:
1. Make more skill injectors with the upcoming changes to PLEX, for example have skill injectors for 100k skill points, 200k, 300k, 400k, 500k, not just the current ones.
2. Give a new player a free NOT TRANSFARRABLE 500k skill injector when upgrading from alpha to omega and using actual CC or other payment method via their account website. This would not be applicable if player is using just plex, but only to those that make an actual monetary payment to CCP.
Those kinda changes would make players stick around more. The biggest turn off to new players, is the same exact one that was there before the alphas, that is how long the skills take to train up and when they realize just how much disparity there is between them and vets and that there is no chance whatsoever for them to even remotely be anything other then cannon fodder in PVP because of the types of ships they can fly. THAT is when they give up and quit and what they need help with.
Instead of posting here like this you should go make an alt and talk to them. I happen to do so because I'm a returning player and there have been so many changes to the game since last I played, I am still kinda new in many aspects now.
O, and the ones that do venture to low / null, are either alts or just unaware yet of what it is they're doing. Some of them join a corp just to see what its like and the corps drags them out there while they have really no clue what it really is, and then again, they quit rather then going Omega.
But putting further limitations on it is the exact opposite of what needs to be done, alphas need more incentives to go Omega and a lot more functionality.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 21:01:31 -
[374] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I did not come in via Reddit, SA or anything else. I came in because I saw an ad somewhere and thought, "Hey cool." I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone.
So I am (or was) the new player you are describing while you were not. This fact is at least a little bit ironic. You sit there typing out, "No, new players they can't make it on their own, look at me." And I say, "Yes, they can look at me." You didn't go through the experience you describe whereas I did and made it.
Do I want the game to borrow from WoW? No. My guess it will simply result in new players putting off finding a good corp/alliance and then leaving the game.
I'm not at any point saying new players can't make it on their own - in almost every post I've stressed that this is a small but not insignificant number of (potential) players that are being turned away from the game that could be captured as long term customers with a little tweaking to the experience they encounter.
Neither am I saying the game should borrow from WoW - but I am saying that the game could borrow some aspects from the wider genre to improve the experience in certain areas. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6242
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 21:54:33 -
[375] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I did not come in via Reddit, SA or anything else. I came in because I saw an ad somewhere and thought, "Hey cool." I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone.
So I am (or was) the new player you are describing while you were not. This fact is at least a little bit ironic. You sit there typing out, "No, new players they can't make it on their own, look at me." And I say, "Yes, they can look at me." You didn't go through the experience you describe whereas I did and made it.
Do I want the game to borrow from WoW? No. My guess it will simply result in new players putting off finding a good corp/alliance and then leaving the game.
I'm not at any point saying new players can't make it on their own - in almost every post I've stressed that this is a small but not insignificant number of (potential) players that are being turned away from the game that could be captured as long term customers with a little tweaking to the experience they encounter. I'm merely commenting on an observation from watching a number of players experience the game for the first time - a good number of them going on to be long term subscribers but a few that I'm talking about don't and its these that don't that I'm posting about. Neither am I saying the game should borrow from WoW - but I am saying that the game could borrow some aspects from the wider genre to improve the experience in certain areas.
But there is one problem with this narrative: that when the game said, "Here is your velator, now **** off," the game grew. When things were being tweaked more in a direction you are advocating that growth stagnated and then turned into a decline. Is there a proof of causality here? No, causality is hard to prove. But it is suggestive that changes that reduce HS content has probably not been good for the game and player retention.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3909
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 22:09:03 -
[376] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: But there is one problem with this narrative: that when the game said, "Here is your velator, now **** off," the game grew. When things were being tweaked more in a direction you are advocating that growth stagnated and then turned into a decline. Is there a proof of causality here? No, causality is hard to prove. But it is suggestive that changes that reduce HS content has probably not been good for the game and player retention.
Except it isn't, because you are ignoring the overall trends involved in both an MMO that ages, and the MMO market in general. You are also talking rubbish about HS content being reduced. Certain aspects may have changed, but overall the content has not been reduced, not when things like merc groups turning into trade hub campers was already happening before all the changes everyone loves to point at and say 'look what they made us do'. They already were doing that a year before hand.
Though you are right with regards to Rroff's direction being terrible for the nature of EVE. Rroff, we don't want to look at other MMO's, because other MMO's do not use EVE's progression system, therefore borrowing mechanics from them is actually borrowing the wrong sort of things. EVE's progress is non linear, and bigger is not better (for a given degree). We have some mechanical issues that encourage giant F1 blobs, and changing that would be exceptionally hard and would cause a lot of upheaval and knee jerk quits, even on the one 'decent' solution that they could do without melting the servers. And still think the industrial ships side of the game have issues, but I won't go into that discussion here.
But other than that, EVE is first and foremost a game about making use of what you do have available, and learning to get the most out of it. Not a game about levelling up to 100, then grinding gear. So look in the direction of survival/horror games more for inspiration for development models. And in those sorts of models, the alpha clone hasn't failed, but has been a great success. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6242
|
Posted - 2017.03.18 22:19:39 -
[377] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: But there is one problem with this narrative: that when the game said, "Here is your velator, now **** off," the game grew. When things were being tweaked more in a direction you are advocating that growth stagnated and then turned into a decline. Is there a proof of causality here? No, causality is hard to prove. But it is suggestive that changes that reduce HS content has probably not been good for the game and player retention.
Except it isn't, because you are ignoring the overall trends involved in both an MMO that ages, and the MMO market in general. You are also talking rubbish about HS content being reduced. Certain aspects may have changed, but overall the content has not been reduced, not when things like merc groups turning into trade hub campers was already happening before all the changes everyone loves to point at and say 'look what they made us do'. They already were doing that a year before hand. Though you are right with regards to Rroff's direction being terrible for the nature of EVE. Rroff, we don't want to look at other MMO's, because other MMO's do not use EVE's progression system, therefore borrowing mechanics from them is actually borrowing the wrong sort of things. EVE's progress is non linear, and bigger is not better (for a given degree). We have some mechanical issues that encourage giant F1 blobs, and changing that would be exceptionally hard and would cause a lot of upheaval and knee jerk quits, even on the one 'decent' solution that they could do without melting the servers. And still think the industrial ships side of the game have issues, but I won't go into that discussion here. But other than that, EVE is first and foremost a game about making use of what you do have available, and learning to get the most out of it. Not a game about levelling up to 100, then grinding gear. So look in the direction of survival/horror games more for inspiration for development models. And in those sorts of models, the alpha clone hasn't failed, but has been a great success.
Targeted war decs? Gone. Can flipping? Gone. Hulkaggedon? Gone.
What do people want to see removed? Freighter ganking, suicide ganking in general, prohibit low sec status people from HS...
Just some of the things that have been lost/removed and things people often complain about. And just off the top of my head. I'm sure there is more.
And yes, there has always been trade hub camping. Going to trade hubs to look for targets if you don't have the standings to use locator agents is a good alternative strategy. It is not a 0, 1 thing here. But we have certainly moved more towards 1 (trade hub camping). How many 2, 3, 4,...small number war dec corps are there now? IDK, but it doesn't seem like many.
And look, the stagnation/decline could be both removal of HS content and the overall direction of MMOs. They are not mutually exclusive hypotheses.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1055
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Posted - 2017.03.18 22:28:24 -
[378] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: What do people want to see removed? Freighter ganking, suicide ganking in general, prohibit low sec status people from HS...
Just some of the things that have been lost/removed and things people often complain about. And just off the top of my head. I'm sure there is more.
And yes, there has always been trade hub camping. Going to trade hubs to look for targets if you don't have the standings to use locator agents is a good alternative strategy. It is not a 0, 1 thing here. But we have certainly moved more towards 1 (trade hub camping). How many 2, 3, 4,...small number war dec corps are there now? IDK, but it doesn't seem like many.
And look, the stagnation/decline could be both removal of HS content and the overall direction of MMOs. They are not mutually exclusive hypotheses.
Personally I don't want to make highseec safer infact to a degree (having spent quite a long time in wormhole space) I'd like the opposite. As per my revisit to this thread my interest is in making it so that taking those actions have more real consequences that can breed a more dynamic back and forth. I would actually go as far as to apply those principles to the war dec system and bounty system if it was upto me (as well as preventing people just leaving corps to skip decs, etc.).
Regarding bringing in canned content similar to certain aspects of other MMOs I think people would come around to what I have in mind if they saw it in action - infact I think it wouldn't change the overall dynamic of Eve at all as it would be designed to encourage people to progress more into the game instead of lapsing in NPC corps, etc. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3910
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Posted - 2017.03.18 22:43:39 -
[379] - Quote
Hulkaggedon is gone because it was no longer as profitable for goons to manipulate the market to leverage their T2 BPO's after the changes to invention no longer being negative ME. And Hulks were no longer the only ship worth mining in. The fact Hulkaggedon is gone is a good thing because it was a situation where you simply couldn't compete with people who had special items that were never going to be obtainable for anyone else, and where 5 / 6 of the barges/exhumers were useless. And we now have burn Jita/Amarr instead.
Can flipping isn't gone, it's less common because the other barges are actually competent now, but people who hulk mined didn't need to jet can that much anyway, but I've can flipped other miners happily in belts since all the changes. And the crime watch changes instead introduced suspect baiting, which catches as many people as can flipping used to catch.
Targeted war decs also aren't gone. You just have to actually hunt corps that have assets in space, which with the new structures are becoming more & more common. Though I agree that there is a need to tell if a particular pilot is on or offline, and would like to see locator agents give that information, and also some kind of general 'locate the members of this corp' system (with number limits, so it only locates the 10 most recent logins from the corp or something, thereby also giving you the probable online members of any decent size corp).
So yeah, a lot of the stuff people love to cry about being 'gone' isn't gone, it's simply changed shape. As for people who want HS ganking removed..... Well, you've read my basic idea about what I'd like to see, which probably increases the visibility of ganking. Those people that want ganking banned and low sec status people banned from HS, well, I'm with you on them needing to smarten up.
As for the decline reasons, it 'could' be. But it would take a very in depth study to reveal which factors are actually contributing, and which are actually helping keep numbers up despite the other factors causing a decline. Which means we can't point at declining numbers and go 'see the recent changes are bad', because it's far more complex than that. (Obviously if they release a patch and 2 days later logins are halved we can, but only if it's dramatic enough).
However I'm wanting the direction of increased natural interactions, rather than either forced interaction or artificial protection. To give an example, take asteroid belts. You can have 30 belts in a system currently if you find a high belt system. What if instead of asteroid belts we got random 'gravitational clusters' a bit like the Null sec anoms, but far more random as to their ore distribution (to reduce the bottleneck issue that anoms have). But a system might only have 2-4 of these, and they would have a respawn timer like ice belts do (4 hours or so should be enough if they have ore similar to a highsec belt). Now all the miners are going to be more concentrated so interact with each other. Now they naturally will either co-operate or compete depending on their temperaments because the resources are more limited (in terms of 'available right now' resources, overall similar output is the goal). There are reasons to declare a war to chase people away from a constellation now. And the hunters/gankers also have fewer places to check for targets meaning more encounters and less random warping around. And it has the side benefit of getting rid of the just after downtime cherry picking advantage certain timezones get. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6242
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Posted - 2017.03.18 23:26:47 -
[380] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Hulkaggedon is gone because it was no longer as profitable for goons to manipulate the market to leverage their T2 BPO's after the changes to invention no longer being negative ME. And Hulks were no longer the only ship worth mining in. The fact Hulkaggedon is gone is a good thing because it was a situation where you simply couldn't compete with people who had special items that were never going to be obtainable for anyone else, and where 5 / 6 of the barges/exhumers were useless. And we now have burn Jita/Amarr instead.
Can flipping isn't gone, it's less common because the other barges are actually competent now, but people who hulk mined didn't need to jet can that much anyway, but I've can flipped other miners happily in belts since all the changes. And the crime watch changes instead introduced suspect baiting, which catches as many people as can flipping used to catch.
Targeted war decs also aren't gone. You just have to actually hunt corps that have assets in space, which with the new structures are becoming more & more common. Though I agree that there is a need to tell if a particular pilot is on or offline, and would like to see locator agents give that information, and also some kind of general 'locate the members of this corp' system (with number limits, so it only locates the 10 most recent logins from the corp or something, thereby also giving you the probable online members of any decent size corp).
So yeah, a lot of the stuff people love to cry about being 'gone' isn't gone, it's simply changed shape. As for people who want HS ganking removed..... Well, you've read my basic idea about what I'd like to see, which probably increases the visibility of ganking. Those people that want ganking banned and low sec status people banned from HS, well, I'm with you on them needing to smarten up.
As for the decline reasons, it 'could' be. But it would take a very in depth study to reveal which factors are actually contributing, and which are actually helping keep numbers up despite the other factors causing a decline. Which means we can't point at declining numbers and go 'see the recent changes are bad', because it's far more complex than that. (Obviously if they release a patch and 2 days later logins are halved we can, but only if it's dramatic enough).
However I'm wanting the direction of increased natural interactions, rather than either forced interaction or artificial protection. To give an example, take asteroid belts. You can have 30 belts in a system currently if you find a high belt system. What if instead of asteroid belts we got random 'gravitational clusters' a bit like the Null sec anoms, but far more random as to their ore distribution (to reduce the bottleneck issue that anoms have). But a system might only have 2-4 of these, and they would have a respawn timer like ice belts do (4 hours or so should be enough if they have ore similar to a highsec belt). Now all the miners are going to be more concentrated so interact with each other. Now they naturally will either co-operate or compete depending on their temperaments because the resources are more limited (in terms of 'available right now' resources, overall similar output is the goal). There are reasons to declare a war to chase people away from a constellation now. And the hunters/gankers also have fewer places to check for targets meaning more encounters and less random warping around. And it has the side benefit of getting rid of the just after downtime cherry picking advantage certain timezones get.
Hulkaggedon is gone. Can flipping may not be entirely gone, but it is far, far less than it used to be. And yes, targeted war decs might be feasible with the new structures so CCP might be reviving that...maybe. Your "changed shape" should really read as "less", IMO.
I like your mining suggestion. Bring the kind of competition/cooperation we see with mining ice to rocks.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3913
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Posted - 2017.03.18 23:47:52 -
[381] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I like your mining suggestion. Bring the kind of competition/cooperation we see with mining ice to rocks.
Yep, that's the direction I want to see EVE go. I even sketched out a prototype of a similar system that could replace missions with in space encounters at one stage, because well, I think everyone hates the immersion breaking of saving the damsel for the 10,000th time at the very least. |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
2106
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Posted - 2017.03.19 11:14:36 -
[382] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I did not come in via Reddit, SA or anything else. I came in because I saw an ad somewhere and thought, "Hey cool." I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone.
Can i ask what exactly AD you have seen to get this idea about EvE?
I'm asking because i never seen AD with 'rampant PvP where people blow as soon as they undock". Most of the time CCP ADs have something about lore, or about exploration, about space but not about 'rampant PvP'. There was one AD about revenge but even then it is not what you described.
Maybe you are talking about youtube videos from booster-OGB-solo heroes? In this case you could get this opinion. But it is not "AD". And talking about such videos player expectations can vary heavily depending of what that youtube-hero was doing. Some of these people do only lvl4 missions
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1056
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Posted - 2017.03.19 11:26:59 -
[383] - Quote
^^ There was a load of ads pushed through facebook at one point which had PVP as one of the marketing points - I think it was based off a reworked version of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfFnTt2UT0 which tends to push a heavy PVP perspective. |
Salvos Rhoska
2489
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Posted - 2017.03.19 11:27:14 -
[384] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone.
Not everyone wants to shoot ships. Furthermore, anyone shooting you would have been suicide by cop on their part.
This raises the questions: What disappointed you more?
That nobody shot at you, or that you couldn't shoot at anyone without exploding?
PvE v PvP
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CODE Special Agent
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Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
3
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Posted - 2017.03.19 11:37:33 -
[385] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I did not come in via Reddit, SA or anything else. I came in because I saw an ad somewhere and thought, "Hey cool." I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone.
Can i ask what exactly AD you have seen to get this idea about EvE? I'm asking because i never seen AD with 'rampant PvP where people blow as soon as they undock". Most of the time CCP ADs have something about lore, or about exploration, about space but not about 'rampant PvP'. There was one AD about revenge but even then it is not what you described. Maybe you are talking about youtube videos from booster-OGB-solo heroes? In this case you could get this opinion. But it is not "AD". And talking about such videos player expectations can vary heavily depending of what that youtube-hero was doing. Some of these people do only lvl4 missions Thats actually the impression I had about Eve Online when I started too. I dont use facebook or reddit the all info I got from eve was from friends who used to played it/tried it and some random blogs found via google.
Then I was suprised its not like that and later when they suicide ganked me I found out what my friends meant ; |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
2106
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Posted - 2017.03.19 13:59:02 -
[386] - Quote
Rroff wrote:^^ There was a load of ads pushed through facebook at one point which had PVP as one of the marketing points - I think it was based off a reworked version of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfFnTt2UT0 which tends to push a heavy PVP perspective. Even in this video you have: - person peacefully mining rocks (and nobody suicides him) - person quietly exploring (and nobody kills him) - one fleet attacks another (both sides came especially to fight) - 3rd party - yes, here is something "unusual" but again: these guys attack already fighting groups
All in all not that 'rampant' PvP. I would say more: this video tells that people do DIFFERENT things, mining, exploring, trading, fighting. Far from what Teckos is trying to say.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
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Posted - 2017.03.19 13:59:25 -
[387] - Quote
Eve has so many opportunities and choices except one.
The option to dodge a fight.
PvP in all honor but sometimes being in the wrong place at the wrong time should have an option.
Just give a poor newbie (or oldie) a chance to opt out from a totally unfair combat.
El Asso Wuppo.
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Salvos Rhoska
2489
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Posted - 2017.03.19 14:13:00 -
[388] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Just give a poor newbie (or oldie) a chance to opt out from a totally unfair combat. Not possible.
Having said that, there are some mechanics which can be changed to prevent a grossly unfair fight in some sectors, but ONLY if you took as many precautions as possible.
Safety cannot be a cover for lack of personal responsibility.
PvE v PvP
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Mister Tuggles
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
117
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Posted - 2017.03.19 14:16:29 -
[389] - Quote
The main use I've seen for alphas is for players to create throw away catalyst gank squads. This can be seen with the huge uptick in suicide ganking since the release of the alpha and omega states. If CCP wants to start retaining players they need to start taking a hard line stance against extended bumping (more than 2-3 minutes), significantly reduce the 15 minute conflict timer you get if someone engages you that you don't even lock up in high sec space, and start to pull some of the wealth out of Null/make nullsec more dangerous. Right now it is the rich kid's playground that has almost 0 risk but immense rewards. |
Salvos Rhoska
2489
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Posted - 2017.03.19 14:22:30 -
[390] - Quote
That is the ironic hilarity of people arguing for Malcanis' Law.
All it ever has ever led to, is more NS based profit. Whether in NS, or on their HS/LS alts.
PvE v PvP
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Dimitrios Bekas
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
12
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Posted - 2017.03.19 14:39:21 -
[391] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".
Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it). I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.
Rather than continuing to gimp the "Alpha experience" CCP should be looking for ways to incentivize players to subscribe and become Omegas. So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated.
****SO MUCH no no no and wrong wrong wrong in that opening text,...
***One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.*** - Bullshit, you don-¦t know what you are talking about....
***active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension.*** -yeah, that little word ALMOST in this sentence...ALMOST what ? 1000, 2000, 5000 ? Compare to last year, same month... *no words*
***There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P).*** -yes,...so you Sir work at CCP HQ, know that THIS was all they had planned, no barrels left to fire, or did you just asked that crystal globe that tells you everything ? MAYBE this was just the start and CCP does not push it high and fast enough to not overhelm and stress you oldschool "PLEASE H+äLLP CCP NO CHANGES AT ALL Playerbase" ? Bullshit.
***To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".*** -yes,..even more Deluxe Bullshit. I am tired, thats why i stop here, don-¦t even want to read anymore or post anymore...too much BullshitGäó ! Really, i mean really ? Go to PH Staging, get on comms, or go to Brave, get into their Defense Fleets...and see how legendaryGäó HeroesGäó are born out of Alphas, that then HAVE A GOOD F************** REASON to subscribe and become OMEGAs.
But yeah,...that was of course possible in 30D before Alphas...well that-¦s what your Crystal Globe of Storytelling and Fortune may have told you, but the FACTS and the REALITY are far far away from what you POST here, dear Sir....Building up the Reputation, getting the feeling of being "valuable" as a Pilot, printing small footsteps into the Sandbox and getting into the social aspects of eve...thats why TRIALS become SUBSCRIBERS....but holy f********************* Jesus Christ...you write "BANN THEM OUT OF LOW AND NULL"....*speechless*
Alpha Idea by CCP was and still is AWESOME...Injectors, AWESOME,...more sexy Skins,...FML awesome if you like the Candy and willing to pay for it...and hell yes, i am so interested for MOARRRR Things to come.
PLEASE CCP shoot at me with your BARRELS of NEW IDEAS and CHANGES !!!!! Raise the RATE OF FIRE of those BARRELLSSSS, because i am tired of that burning feeling in my chest to write my Comments under BullshitGäó (see above)
A NEW EVE...A NEW PLAYERBASE....old EVE needs to die in a lot of parts to attract new and fresh and hopefully more YOUNG Playerbase.
To the thread opener, please don-¦t take it too personally, never ever wanted to offend you, and sure it may sound a bit harsh and aggro how i write it,...but it needed some LOVE. Anyway, hope you will like and ACCEPT more New and fresh Ideas soon. Fly dangerous and risky o7 |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28070
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Posted - 2017.03.19 14:43:46 -
[392] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:The main use I've seen for alphas is for players to create throw away catalyst gank squads. This can be seen with the huge uptick in suicide ganking since the release of the alpha and omega states. If CCP wants to start retaining players they need to start taking a hard line stance against extended bumping (more than 2-3 minutes), significantly reduce the 15 minute conflict timer you get if someone engages you that you don't even lock up in high sec space, and start to pull some of the wealth out of Null/make nullsec more dangerous. Right now it is the rich kid's playground that has almost 0 risk but immense rewards. Despite suicide ganking with alphas requiring multiple ships and resulting in Concord killing the active participants, Concord are killing less people than they have done in the past.
CCP have published graphporn that confirms shows a downward trend in the number of people that Concord kill, graphing current data from Zkill shows the same overall trend. The spikes in Concord activity in both graphs are Burn X events.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
632
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Posted - 2017.03.19 14:54:52 -
[393] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Eve has so many opportunities and choices except one.
The option to dodge a fight.
PvP in all honor but sometimes being in the wrong place at the wrong time should have an option.
Just give a poor newbie (or oldie) a chance to opt out from a totally unfair combat.
No.
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Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
632
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Posted - 2017.03.19 14:56:39 -
[394] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Mister Tuggles wrote:The main use I've seen for alphas is for players to create throw away catalyst gank squads. This can be seen with the huge uptick in suicide ganking since the release of the alpha and omega states. If CCP wants to start retaining players they need to start taking a hard line stance against extended bumping (more than 2-3 minutes), significantly reduce the 15 minute conflict timer you get if someone engages you that you don't even lock up in high sec space, and start to pull some of the wealth out of Null/make nullsec more dangerous. Right now it is the rich kid's playground that has almost 0 risk but immense rewards. Despite suicide ganking with alphas requiring multiple ships and resulting in Concord killing the active participants, Concord are killing less people than they have done in the past. Graphing current data from Zkill shows an overall downwards trend. The spikes in Concord activity are Burn X events.
Please, don't confuse them with facts.
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1056
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Posted - 2017.03.19 15:28:28 -
[395] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Rroff wrote:^^ There was a load of ads pushed through facebook at one point which had PVP as one of the marketing points - I think it was based off a reworked version of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfFnTt2UT0 which tends to push a heavy PVP perspective. Even in this video you have: - person peacefully mining rocks (and nobody suicides him) - person quietly exploring (and nobody kills him) - one fleet attacks another (both sides came especially to fight) - 3rd party - yes, here is something "unusual" but again: these guys attack already fighting groups All in all not that 'rampant' PvP. I would say more: this video tells that people do DIFFERENT things, mining, exploring, trading, fighting. Far from what Teckos is trying to say.
I used to get a variant of that video in my facebook feed - due to having a few friends on there who play it with something like "X, Y and Z like Eve Online" and then a video below which was about 90% PVP stuff and then like 2 seconds of market and mining images at the end which made the game seem far more PVP orientated than a lot of the marketing. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
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Posted - 2017.03.19 15:40:49 -
[396] - Quote
Ok
As I said, Im a lone wolf so thats why I focus on the small guy.
What if CCP would expand that walking-around-in-stations concept?
Could that attract a whole new batch of players?
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Salvos Rhoska
2491
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 15:47:02 -
[397] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:TL;DR What huge uptick in suicide ganking?
Your stats are valid.
But what about the rest of his post regarding NS?
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
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Salvos Rhoska
2491
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 15:48:00 -
[398] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
As I said, Im a lone wolf so thats why I focus on the small guy.
What if CCP would expand that walking-around-in-stations concept?
Could that attract a whole new batch of players?
Voi vittu, ny oikeesti.
Now you are just openly trolling.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
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Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
114
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 15:52:06 -
[399] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:No.
I like the way you do debate. Please post more!
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 16:01:28 -
[400] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
As I said, Im a lone wolf so thats why I focus on the small guy.
What if CCP would expand that walking-around-in-stations concept?
Could that attract a whole new batch of players? Voi vittu, ny oikeesti. Now you are just openly trolling.
No, really. Im throwing in all sorts of ideas.
Honestly I dont think Eve is in trouble but this topic keeps coming up. And CCP are seriously trying some moves (Alphas).
El Asso Wuppo.
|
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Salvos Rhoska
2491
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 16:09:38 -
[401] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
As I said, Im a lone wolf so thats why I focus on the small guy.
What if CCP would expand that walking-around-in-stations concept?
Could that attract a whole new batch of players? Voi vittu, ny oikeesti. Now you are just openly trolling. No, really. Im throwing in all sorts of ideas. Honestly I dont think Eve is in trouble but this topic keeps coming up. And CCP are seriously trying some moves (Alphas).
So WiS would attract more Alphas? How does CCP profit from that?
Or should WiS be only Omega?
Do you think that would offset the millions of dollars and hours in manpower to make WiS happen? Just so you can walk around in a station, rather than flying around in EVE?
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 16:13:00 -
[402] - Quote
Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 16:14:27 -
[403] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
As I said, Im a lone wolf so thats why I focus on the small guy.
What if CCP would expand that walking-around-in-stations concept?
Could that attract a whole new batch of players? Voi vittu, ny oikeesti. Now you are just openly trolling. No, really. Im throwing in all sorts of ideas. Honestly I dont think Eve is in trouble but this topic keeps coming up. And CCP are seriously trying some moves (Alphas). So WiS would attract more Alphas? How does CCP profit from that? Or should WiS be only Omega? Do you think that would offset the millions of dollars and hours in manpower to make WiS happen? Just so you can walk around in a station, rather than flying around in EVE?
A bit of a longshot but I thought more of the social part of the Eve experience. I bet it took many hours to develop the Alpha concept too.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
599
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 16:20:15 -
[404] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote: A bit of a longshot but I thought more of the social part of the Eve experience. I bet it took many hours to develop the Alpha concept too.
????????? 1 - a bad idea still remain a bad idea no matter how much time you put in it 2 - not so many hours lol, just watch around, many games had a f2p option. just take it and adapt to eve... need to be a genius for that xD |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 16:23:55 -
[405] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote: A bit of a longshot but I thought more of the social part of the Eve experience. I bet it took many hours to develop the Alpha concept too.
????????? 1 - a bad idea still remain a bad idea no matter how much time you put in it 2 - not so many hours lol, just watch around, many games had a f2p option. just take it and adapt to eve... need to be a genius for that xD
Ok, I get the hint.
I didnt mean fullblown Skyrim, maybe something more than stearing at pictures of career agents and the local chat.
So lets drop the WiS idea.
El Asso Wuppo.
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
633
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 17:52:44 -
[406] - Quote
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:No.
I like the way you do debate. Please post more! Thanks!
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Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
633
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 17:53:39 -
[407] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners.
Like, right-click and invite to fleet? |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
328
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:02:20 -
[408] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners. Like, right-click and invite to fleet?
This |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:02:57 -
[409] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners. Like, right-click and invite to fleet?
More instant, like an emergency thing... naah forget it.
Everybody just tank. Forget exploring, mining, drifting, going to the bathroom. Learn to accept losses and live in fear.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
5675
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:06:06 -
[410] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners. Like, right-click and invite to fleet? This
...then it turns that he's a spai and tells his buddies where to meet and pwn your fleet. |
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
328
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:08:01 -
[411] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners. Like, right-click and invite to fleet? This ...then it turns that he's a spai and tells his buddies where to meet and pwn your fleet.
Everyone in fleet is already a spai especially the FC. So it doesn't matter |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:26:11 -
[412] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I did not come in via Reddit, SA or anything else. I came in because I saw an ad somewhere and thought, "Hey cool." I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone.
Can i ask what exactly AD you have seen to get this idea about EvE? I'm asking because i never seen AD with 'rampant PvP where people blow as soon as they undock". Most of the time CCP ADs have something about lore, or about exploration, about space but not about 'rampant PvP'. There was one AD about revenge but even then it is not what you described. Maybe you are talking about youtube videos from booster-OGB-solo heroes? In this case you could get this opinion. But it is not "AD". And talking about such videos player expectations can vary heavily depending of what that youtube-hero was doing. Some of these people do only lvl4 missions Edit: personally i don't remember why i downloaded and started to play EvE. I only remember that for me it was the game about space and spaceships. PvP? Didn't think about it. I suspected it is dangerous around and always was careful (i remember my thrill when i first looted NPC ship for like 1 million in some tags and moved it to market to sell.... that was a lot of money and i was scared moving so expensive stuff around). But i didn't came here to have something like Counter-Strike in space. I'm sure about it.
It was over 9 years ago....no idea at this point.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:27:41 -
[413] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I thought that PvP would be rampant, that as soon as I undocked I'd get shot. It was almost disappointing when I did undock. All these ships in space around the station and nobody shooting anyone. Not everyone wants to shoot ships. Furthermore, anyone shooting you would have been suicide by cop on their part. This raises the questions: What disappointed you more? That nobody shot at you, or that you couldn't shoot at anyone without exploding?
Dude...it was my first day in game. Did you know everything about the game the very first time you logged in with your trial account?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:31:19 -
[414] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Eve has so many opportunities and choices except one.
The option to dodge a fight.
PvP in all honor but sometimes being in the wrong place at the wrong time should have an option.
Just give a poor newbie (or oldie) a chance to opt out from a totally unfair combat.
You most certainly can dodge fights...but it takes knowledge. And that knowledge comes via experience. Want to get from point A to point B without a fight and through hostile territory, take a fast aligning ship. Some of the best options are not available right away due to SP, but again SP are there partly for balance issues, IMO. And they are not 100% either. And 100% should rarely be part of the game and when it is it should come with severe limitations.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:34:59 -
[415] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Mister Tuggles wrote:The main use I've seen for alphas is for players to create throw away catalyst gank squads. This can be seen with the huge uptick in suicide ganking since the release of the alpha and omega states. If CCP wants to start retaining players they need to start taking a hard line stance against extended bumping (more than 2-3 minutes), significantly reduce the 15 minute conflict timer you get if someone engages you that you don't even lock up in high sec space, and start to pull some of the wealth out of Null/make nullsec more dangerous. Right now it is the rich kid's playground that has almost 0 risk but immense rewards. Despite suicide ganking with alphas requiring multiple ships and resulting in Concord killing the active participants, Concord are killing less people than they have done in the past. Graphporn of current data from Zkill shows an overall downwards trend. The larger spikes in Concord activity are Burn X events. TL;DR What huge uptick in suicide ganking?
I love it when people present solid and simple data. Well done.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:39:25 -
[416] - Quote
Next attempt.
Micro-Plex. Its coming. Since all old players are not paying any monthly subscriptions, dont know the ratio but it must be alarming enough to have CCP looking for solutions to get paying customers.
I mentioned P2W. Loading Gold-torpedos for those pesky hard shields. Maybe some timer cloakshield. Invisible cans. Premium ships. Energy drink to temporary "overheat" skills.
Maan, they would double their income in notime.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:40:23 -
[417] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners.
People can form fleets whenever they want. Yes more numbers is always good in a fight. So this is there already. Right click whomever you want in your fleet and select 'form fleet with'. After that right click on people and select 'invite to fleet' and then select at which level.
Once in fleet and in the same system they can warp to you or you to them.
As for any other benefit, no. It could be used as a method to avoid fatigue.
Edit: It could also, effectively, add jump capability to ships without jump drives if this "platooning" moves people instantly to wherever the platoon creator is.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:45:49 -
[418] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners. People can form fleets whenever they want. Yes more numbers is always good in a fight. So this is there already. Right click whomever you want in your fleet and select 'form fleet with'. After that right click on people and select 'invite to fleet' and then select at which level. Once in fleet and in the same system they can warp to you or you to them. As for any other benefit, no. It could be used as a method to avoid fatigue. Edit: It could also, effectively, add jump capability to ships without jump drives if this "platooning" moves people instantly to wherever the platoon creator is.
Kinda different approach, the create fleet option takes way too long to be of any direct use.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:47:48 -
[419] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Next attempt.
Micro-Plex. Its coming. Since all old players are not paying any monthly subscriptions, dont know the ratio but it must be alarming enough to have CCP looking for solutions to get paying customers.
I mentioned P2W. Loading Gold-torpedos for those pesky hard shields. Maybe some timer cloakshield. Invisible cans. Premium ships. Energy drink to temporary "overheat" skills.
Maan, they would double their income in notime.
Eve players hate gold ammo. To the extent there is P2W in EVE it is extremely limited. Yes you can buy lots of SP and inject them and get high SP in short order. However, even with a 300 million SP character you'll like die like a dog to 3-4 30 million SP characters every time.
And that won't necessarily bring in more players, but will simply monetize the existing player base....which many current EVE players are extremely hostile too. So much so a few years ago players "rioted" in Jita and blew up a monument there. You can still see the wreck of the monument. The incident also prompted this letter from CCP Hilmar, the CEO of CCP. Rumor has it he didn't actually write it, but the point is CCP got the point, micro-transactions that are obviously P2W will not sit well with many if not most players.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 18:48:41 -
[420] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners. People can form fleets whenever they want. Yes more numbers is always good in a fight. So this is there already. Right click whomever you want in your fleet and select 'form fleet with'. After that right click on people and select 'invite to fleet' and then select at which level. Once in fleet and in the same system they can warp to you or you to them. As for any other benefit, no. It could be used as a method to avoid fatigue. Edit: It could also, effectively, add jump capability to ships without jump drives if this "platooning" moves people instantly to wherever the platoon creator is. Kinda different approach, the create fleet option takes way too long to be of any direct use.
It takes seconds. You can also create an advert and drop it into a chat channel and others can click it. This all should take less that 1-2 minutes.
Edit: In EVE a little bit of preparation can go a loooong way. This is why logistics in a big NS war is so important. The people who can prepare and be ready first have a significant advantage.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 19:02:39 -
[421] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ok
How about this.
Platooning.
In WoT you can temporarily platoon. You say it already exists as making a team. This could be a faster choice with benefits, like rightclicking somebody who has a mark in Local that tells everybody he is ready for platooning. You invite to platoon and if he (them) accept they would instawarp next to you. Maybe some other perks for platooners. People can form fleets whenever they want. Yes more numbers is always good in a fight. So this is there already. Right click whomever you want in your fleet and select 'form fleet with'. After that right click on people and select 'invite to fleet' and then select at which level. Once in fleet and in the same system they can warp to you or you to them. As for any other benefit, no. It could be used as a method to avoid fatigue. Edit: It could also, effectively, add jump capability to ships without jump drives if this "platooning" moves people instantly to wherever the platoon creator is. Kinda different approach, the create fleet option takes way too long to be of any direct use. It takes seconds. You can also create an advert and drop it into a chat channel and others can click it. This all should take less that 1-2 minutes. Edit: In EVE a little bit of preparation can go a loooong way. This is why logistics in a big NS war is so important. The people who can prepare and be ready first have a significant advantage.
Sigh. Sure is a problem for wiser men than me.
I know Im a newbie, but the immediate problem that CCP are addressing is monetary. They went from trial to alpha, darn big leap.
Seems that the problem is how to make new players enjoy their first days, weeks so much they want to stay. Thats why I keep addressing these tings that bothered me the most when I started. (Many remember my sad, early rage against this game)
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
600
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 19:11:08 -
[422] - Quote
i would say: just let it happen <3 |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 19:15:49 -
[423] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Sigh. Sure is a problem for wiser men than me.
I know Im a newbie, but the immediate problem that CCP are addressing is monetary. They went from trial to alpha, darn big leap.
Seems that the problem is how to make new players enjoy their first days, weeks so much they want to stay. Thats why I keep addressing these tings that bothered me the most when I started. (Many remember my sad, early rage against this game)
That's fine, but there is a forum for new player ideas where lots of ideas are posted. Some frequently...too frequently (i.e. use the search button or google please).
And you might want to read this. Or at least this part,
Quote:Any change that is made to privilege a specific group in an open, classless game will invariably be to the greater benefit of older, richer, more experienced players.
With any proposal you should ask, "How could this be abused?" You are new so you may not see it, so if you do have an idea adding that question to any posts about ideas would be a good move; with an upside you might learn about certain mechanics you were unaware of prior to posting.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 19:25:48 -
[424] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:That's fine, but there is a forum for new player ideas where lots of ideas are posted. Some frequently...too frequently (i.e. use the search button or google please). And you might want to read this. Or at least this part, Quote:Any change that is made to privilege a specific group in an open, classless game will invariably be to the greater benefit of older, richer, more experienced players. With any proposal you should ask, "How could this be abused?" You are new so you may not see it, so if you do have an idea adding that question to any posts about ideas would be a good move; with an upside you might learn about certain mechanics you were unaware of prior to posting.
Yep I tend to get hyper in forums, kinda getting caught up in the moment.
Usually Memphis Baas steps in and bitchslaps me in Beginners Q&A.
How about SP-connected perks that "wears" of when you reach higher levels of SP?
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 19:26:34 -
[425] - Quote
Doublepost
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 19:53:45 -
[426] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:That's fine, but there is a forum for new player ideas where lots of ideas are posted. Some frequently...too frequently (i.e. use the search button or google please). And you might want to read this. Or at least this part, Quote:Any change that is made to privilege a specific group in an open, classless game will invariably be to the greater benefit of older, richer, more experienced players. With any proposal you should ask, "How could this be abused?" You are new so you may not see it, so if you do have an idea adding that question to any posts about ideas would be a good move; with an upside you might learn about certain mechanics you were unaware of prior to posting. Yep I tend to get hyper in forums, kinda getting caught up in the moment. Usually Memphis Baas steps in and bitchslaps me in Beginners Q&A. How about SP-connected perks that "wears" of when you reach higher levels of SP?
Already been tried. There were these things called dailies, like go kill a belt rat and get x-SP. CCP ended up taking it out. Not sure if they are still working on it or not or totally scrapped it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 19:54:34 -
[427] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Don't try and make EVE "better for new players"; just try to make the game better for everyone and the new players (or miners, or solo PvP, or small alliances, or hi-sec CSM voters) will benefit just fine.
This could be written on the Eve tombstone
Hopefully not for awhile, and perhaps it would be better served by being written over the doors of CCP's building.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 20:32:09 -
[428] - Quote
Eve is a huge social experiment.
To me it seems the playerbase has been very steady except for the Alpha-peak. Maybe everybody is overreacting on Eves death.
We have unfortunately seen many examples of game developers that during success hires too many people and then when "normality" sets in the downhill starts (lookin at you too Rovio)
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1056
|
Posted - 2017.03.19 23:06:40 -
[429] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:@Teckos Pech
You are a wise man.
Eve is a huge social experiment.
To me it seems the playerbase has been very steady except for the Alpha-peak. Maybe everybody is overreacting on Eves death.
We have unfortunately seen many examples of game developers that during success hires too many people and then when "normality" sets in the downhill starts (lookin at you too Rovio)
Yes and no - there is a definite trend there if you look at any metric* but it doesn't mean that the outcome is inevitable. But based on around 20 years of experience with both sides of the fence when it comes to video games (as a player and developer) my experience would suggest that Eve is if everything continues on current trends in a downwards decline to a critical point around 2-3 years from now where declining activity levels will go into a spiral as less activity will breed less activity combined with the lower income meaning less investment in updates to the game. (This is more an instinctive thing than something necessarily calculated).
And I honestly believe the solution partly lies in embracing a certain, though limited, amount of canned fleet content both in PVP and especially PVE that brings people together earlier in the game - especially mission arcs for say 2-4 players that don't have them running back to agent after every site and take them around the game world a bit.
* Even the graph posts a couple of pages back of concord activity when you filter out the various factors tends to show a declining trend in active players as well. |
Salvos Rhoska
2503
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 07:43:42 -
[430] - Quote
Everything dies, nothing is eternal.
Change, and adapting to it, is the only desperate means we have of forestalling that inevitability.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
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CODE Licenses
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CODE Special Agent
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 15:21:15 -
[431] - Quote
Rroff wrote: - especially mission arcs for say 2-4 players that don't have them running back to agent after every site and take them around the game world a bit..
This is not a bad idea at all. Joining a corp could be too big a leap for many.
So missions or some ingame billboard system (WiS ) where you could temporarily get together and form a fleet, do whatever and then separate.
Like forming a music band for a few gigs.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
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Lawrence Lawton
The Conference Elite CODE.
106
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 18:07:47 -
[432] - Quote
lilol' me wrote: for me ill always say these things are problems
Scamming - big problem Ganking - big problem Risk vs Reward - CCP have nerfed reward its pathetic. I mean you do a lvl 3 mission and you get literally not much for your efforts Immersion - the game can be terribly boring, missions are boring, pvp well isnt exactly exciting, there is no life in eve, you only ever see someone at a station or at a gate really, there is nothing in between. Citadels help a little on that but i want to see more life happening.
Scamming - one of the selling points of EVE Ganking - one of the selling points of EVE Risk vs Reward - There is almost zero risk in running a lvl 3 mission run in highsec, so of course the reward is low. Try running a DED site in in low or null. The risk/reward ratio in highsec is actually imbalanced in the other direction. Many people go months without losing anything and stay in highsec forever. (Nerf highsec incursions!) Immersion - The PvE is predictable, repetitive, and unchallenging. That is because EVE is a social PvP game. If you think PvP is not exciting then you're doing it wrong.
You are a carebear and you should feel bad about it. Your expectations are completely off. Highsec is like training wheels for people who don't know how to play yet.
The solution to your problem is to stop playing EVE like a solo theme park game, join a decent corp or alliance, and get out of highsec. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 18:17:34 -
[433] - Quote
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
The solution to your problem is to stop playing EVE like a solo theme park game, join a decent corp or alliance, and get out of highsec.
I would agree with this for the vast majority of players. EVE is not a theme park game. Playing it as a solo lone wolf player from the get go is going to lead to alot of frustration and annoyance, IMO. If you first find friends/corp/alliance you'll learn faster, earn faster, and hopefully have fun. If at a later date you want to try going back to the lone wolf suff...go ahead, you'll be better equipped to handle it, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
139
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 18:18:40 -
[434] - Quote
Eve may be in a rut.
I am not convinced it is dieing right now.
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
However it could be true that Alpha clones are not doing anything for the growth of the game.
Alpha's are restricted to never being more than an alpha unless they pay...so they have no great goals to accomplish or look forward to.
It might do better if there is a Beta clone option, and perhaps a Ceta clone option (where you pay a samller subscription), and then the full Omega option (monthly subscription). |
Jenn aSide
Absolute Massive Destruction Test Alliance Please Ignore
15371
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 18:38:24 -
[435] - Quote
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Ceta
WTF is a Ceta? Mean "Gamma"?
My latin teacher is turning in his grave lol. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
611
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 18:43:53 -
[436] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Ceta WTF is a Ceta? Mean "Gamma"? My latin teacher is turning in his grave lol.
we aren't all lucky as you to have a latin teacher! gogo autodidacts people!
let gamma be ceta! ceta ftw!!!!!!! |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 19:59:58 -
[437] - Quote
Is there ANYTHING in between?
You are either in a corp. or you are a nogood loser with no future in Eve.
I simply dont want to be told what, when, where.
Im a family man who cant play on a regular basis and absolutely not sit here and shout stupid things in to a microphone.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3235
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:04:49 -
[438] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Ceta WTF is a Ceta?
It's what comes before Deta, Eeta, Feta, ...
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:04:57 -
[439] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Ceta WTF is a Ceta? Mean "Gamma"? My latin teacher is turning in his grave lol. we aren't all lucky as you to have a latin teacher! gogo autodidacts people! let gamma be ceta! ceta ftw!!!!!!!
Not Latin. Greek. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3236
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:07:00 -
[440] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Is there ANYTHING in between?
You are either in a corp. or you are a nogood loser with no future in Eve.
I simply dont want to be told what, when, where.
Im a family man who cant play on a regular basis and absolutely not sit here and shout stupid things in to a microphone.
Every places I played the game in didn't require to play on a regular basis or shouting stupid things in a microphone.
I have to admit no never having joined a WH corp or a HS mercenary one so maybe those do require that... |
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1056
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:07:17 -
[441] - Quote
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Eve may be in a rut. I am not convinced it is dieing right now. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquilityHowever it could be true that Alpha clones are not doing anything for the growth of the game. Alpha's are restricted to never being more than an alpha unless they pay...so they have no great goals to accomplish or look forward to. It might do better if there is a Beta clone option, and perhaps a Ceta clone option (where you pay a samller subscription), and then the full Omega option (monthly subscription).
Eve is in a decline not a death throe, nothing to say it can't be reversed, etc. but its pretty obvious by any objective measurement that since 2013 the trend is downwards and measures have only produced spikes and done nothing to reverse the trend just delay it.
I think it is worth hanging out in a starter system sometime see what is going on and the disconnects in some of the early parts of the game and what old timers have come to expect/potential for someone with more experience - some of the conversations when I came back to see what the alpha stuff was about was interesting to me.
Also looking at some of the posts above I think some don't realise that some people want to get involved with other players but don't want to jump into something structured/corporation atleast not initially and there is a bit of a gap there. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:13:20 -
[442] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Is there ANYTHING in between?
You are either in a corp. or you are a nogood loser with no future in Eve.
I simply dont want to be told what, when, where.
Im a family man who cant play on a regular basis and absolutely not sit here and shout stupid things in to a microphone.
The microphone thing is a bigger deal than many realize.
Those of us who are in the older gamer demographic (35+) where games didn't involve voice coms when we started playing and now have families... dealing with comms is something that is not as easy to accept as many want it to be.
When my main was looking for a corp after returning I put up the fact I wanted to get out of high sec but not be in a corp that required voice comms. I literally got 30 messages from corps recruiting telling me I was an idiot for not wanting to use a microphone.
I ended up joining one that was okay with not having me on voice comms... but even with that I can't take part in a lot of alliance activities because of that.
I think many fail to realize how many of us people who were around at the dawn of MMO's are still around but can only play for a few hours each night with the sound turned off (to not wake up a spouse or child). I know it's a futile wish... but i do wish the voice comm thing wasn't such a central part of group play on most MMO's (especially eve). |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:34:55 -
[443] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Is there ANYTHING in between?
You are either in a corp. or you are a nogood loser with no future in Eve.
I simply dont want to be told what, when, where.
Im a family man who cant play on a regular basis and absolutely not sit here and shout stupid things in to a microphone. Every places I played the game in didn't require to play on a regular basis or shouting stupid things in a microphone. I have to admit no never having joined a WH corp or a HS mercenary one so maybe those do require that...
Pretty much the same. In some instances if I was online the expectation was to be in fleets, but that was limited to sov level warfare. If you don't want that don't join up with sov holders.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:37:40 -
[444] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Is there ANYTHING in between?
You are either in a corp. or you are a nogood loser with no future in Eve.
I simply dont want to be told what, when, where.
Im a family man who cant play on a regular basis and absolutely not sit here and shout stupid things in to a microphone. The microphone thing is a bigger deal than many realize. Those of us who are in the older gamer demographic (35+) where games didn't involve voice coms when we started playing and now have families... dealing with comms is something that is not as easy to accept as many want it to be. When my main was looking for a corp after returning I put up the fact I wanted to get out of high sec but not be in a corp that required voice comms. I literally got 30 messages from corps recruiting telling me I was an idiot for not wanting to use a microphone. I ended up joining one that was okay with not having me on voice comms... but even with that I can't take part in a lot of alliance activities because of that. I think many fail to realize how many of us people who were around at the dawn of MMO's are still around but can only play for a few hours each night with the sound turned off (to not wake up a spouse or child). I know it's a futile wish... but i do wish the voice comm thing wasn't such a central part of group play on most MMO's (especially eve).
I have been in sov holding alliances for a big chunk of the years I've been playing and unless you are an FC or somebody "important" in the alliance talking on comms was not that common. I would often not talk because others in the house were asleep...was hardly an issue. And if listening to the FC is s problem: headsets people...headsets.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 20:47:43 -
[445] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Is there ANYTHING in between?
You are either in a corp. or you are a nogood loser with no future in Eve.
I simply dont want to be told what, when, where.
Im a family man who cant play on a regular basis and absolutely not sit here and shout stupid things in to a microphone. The microphone thing is a bigger deal than many realize. Those of us who are in the older gamer demographic (35+) where games didn't involve voice coms when we started playing and now have families... dealing with comms is something that is not as easy to accept as many want it to be. When my main was looking for a corp after returning I put up the fact I wanted to get out of high sec but not be in a corp that required voice comms. I literally got 30 messages from corps recruiting telling me I was an idiot for not wanting to use a microphone. I ended up joining one that was okay with not having me on voice comms... but even with that I can't take part in a lot of alliance activities because of that. I think many fail to realize how many of us people who were around at the dawn of MMO's are still around but can only play for a few hours each night with the sound turned off (to not wake up a spouse or child). I know it's a futile wish... but i do wish the voice comm thing wasn't such a central part of group play on most MMO's (especially eve). I have been in sov holding alliances for a big chunk of the years I've been playing and unless you are an FC or somebody "important" in the alliance talking on comms was not that common. I would often not talk because others in the house were asleep...was hardly an issue. And if listening to the FC is s problem: headsets people...headsets.
I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 21:11:43 -
[446] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
BoB/GBC and later IT Alliance and Goons provide support for deaf players. I know I used it when my headset crapped out once and was waiting for the replacement. It does rely on other players with headsets typing FC commands. Not perfect, but player groups are trying....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 21:52:09 -
[447] - Quote
Thank you guys for understanding.
Also glad to see that somebody else might have issues with corps. To join a corp is a pretty big deal on many levels, its a social community and you have to fit in.
Finding a perfect corp can be tedious with trials and errors especially for players like me who rather enjoy very small groups and without the comm. stuff.
This could be something for CCP to dig into and find a solution that is kinda in between.
Kinda like that billboard thing I mentioned.
" Hi, me and my friend want covop pilot who could tag along this weekend and protect us in WH, bring friend if you want. Contact 'Asso Whuppo' "
CCP could add some features to prevent trolling and reduce the posibility to take (too) much advantage.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 23:51:26 -
[448] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:lel i mean... even romans didn't think they could walk on the moon the only limit out there is the one you place on yourself kiddo But it was the Chinese who invented rockets. |
Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2017.03.20 23:54:02 -
[449] - Quote
Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts.
I wonder how many people would sigh in relief that sunk costs (in money and/or time) could finally be walked away from and never look back. |
Lawrence Lawton
The Conference Elite CODE.
107
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 00:10:49 -
[450] - Quote
Scialt wrote: I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
You're right that it's not realistic. Voice comms are by far the most efficient way to communicate commands in a fleet engagement, so not using them would be a disadvantage. Telling people you are deaf would mean some do-gooder is wasting his time relaying commands for your needy self.
People who refuse to use comms without a good reason are considered untrustworthy and annoying. |
|
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
339
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 00:14:40 -
[451] - Quote
Lawrence Lawton wrote:Scialt wrote: I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
You're right that it's not realistic. Voice comms are by far the most efficient way to communicate commands in a fleet engagement, so not using them would be a disadvantage. Telling people you are deaf would mean some do-gooder is wasting his time relaying commands for your needy self. People who refuse to use comms without a good reason are considered untrustworthy and annoying.
And being in voice coms more often than not doesn't actually require talking all that much as it does listening. I've been in hours long fleets where I probably only keyed up once or twice because I wasn't in a very talkative mood.
If you've got headphones then you can be in comms. |
Lawrence Lawton
The Conference Elite CODE.
107
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 00:24:24 -
[452] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote: Finding a perfect corp can be tedious with trials and errors especially for players like me who rather enjoy very small groups and without the comm. stuff.
This could be something for CCP to dig into and find a solution that is kinda in between.
Kinda like that billboard thing I mentioned.
" Hi, me and my friend want covop pilot who could tag along this weekend and protect us in WH, bring friend if you want. Contact 'Asso Whuppo' "
CCP could add some features to prevent trolling and reduce the posibility to take (too much) advantage.
Sounds like you're lacking in self confidence and motivation and expect others to do the work for you.
The problem with your idea, as you observed, is that it would require CCP to change the fundamental nature of EVE. If you posted that ad right now, anybody who responded would more likely kill you than protect you because nobody wants to protect a bunch of nobody wormhole farmers for free. Joining a corp is about establishing a trustworthy reputation and meeting other people you can depend on for things like that.
You're in no position to be picky. The "perfect" corp for you is one that will tolerate your presence. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6245
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 00:34:22 -
[453] - Quote
Dornier Pfeil wrote:Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts. I wonder how many people would sigh in relief that sunk costs (in money and/or time) could finally be walked away from and never look back.
They should walk away now...sunk costs are, after all, sunk. Sticking around because of them is not good.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Keno Skir
1394
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 09:26:52 -
[454] - Quote
Lawrence Lawton wrote:You're in no position to be picky. The "perfect" corp for you is one that will tolerate your presence.
Spat some of my drink out. Kudos
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
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roberts dragon
Beak Enterprises TRUE VINE
69
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 12:44:08 -
[455] - Quote
its like all things when companys try new things they sometimes dont work , so have to explore differnet ideas ,like eveything else if their path fails then they need new ideas .
so employ new people new ideas its clear game can grow but is not working they way they would really like .
if you are right then ccp or the investors need to replace the people and get fresh faces , take elder scrolls no we wont go free to they did now awash with cash .
what ever ccp have said in the past wont happen and also the vets say if that happens we leave , i do think over time all companys will have to change the some taboo things and most comapnys are not unique to that .
so time for change out with the old and in with the new .
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Telkhinas
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 13:40:53 -
[456] - Quote
Alpha clones allow player to stay in touch with the game, but don't really do anything to lure them back into subbing again. Instead, ccp should have allowed players to use all ships spicing things up, keeping and / or placing current / other limitations such as 95% reduction in bounties and LPs, unable to skill anything else, market skills would be limited, implants would have limited use, jump fatigue bonuses inactive, double the fuel cost for jump capable ships, etc. Flying cruisers can be fun, but re-using blops and caps might be a turning point for old players.
Also ccp could use alpha state to test some approaches, such as limited use of covops cloak (timer) to avoid perma eyes in a system. From test server to tranquility, alpha could be a useful tool , mediating changes in a manner that acts as a bridge between design and actual implementation. Its not all sour grapes for alphas, depends how ccp uses them.
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An-Nur
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 13:49:03 -
[457] - Quote
EVE is a niche game. You either find the nature of its universe and learning curve suits you or it doesn't. No amount of hand holding is going to change that. Short of expanding the size/options of the game I can't see anything that may attract new players without pissing of its core base. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 13:50:46 -
[458] - Quote
Lawrence Lawton wrote:Scialt wrote: I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
You're right that it's not realistic. Voice comms are by far the most efficient way to communicate commands in a fleet engagement, so not using them would be a disadvantage. Telling people you are deaf would mean some do-gooder is wasting his time relaying commands for your needy self. People who refuse to use comms without a good reason are considered untrustworthy and annoying.
Which is why I'm not part of your corporation.
See? I'm not bothering you, you're not bothering me. But don't whine that players like me aren't joining the part of the game you think we should. Voice comms in video games was not a thing until relatively recently (last 10-15 years). Some of us old farts aren't interested and it is a barrier for entry to a lot of things.
I still enjoy the game. I am still part of a corporation and I still PvP... I just do it solo in FW complexes in Low sec instead of in alliance fleets in null. I likely could be somewhat helpful in those fleets... but I don't want to take part in voice comms so I don't participate.
Sorry if that annoys you. |
Jenn aSide
Absolute Massive Destruction Test Alliance Please Ignore
15374
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 14:38:08 -
[459] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Lawrence Lawton wrote:Scialt wrote: I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
You're right that it's not realistic. Voice comms are by far the most efficient way to communicate commands in a fleet engagement, so not using them would be a disadvantage. Telling people you are deaf would mean some do-gooder is wasting his time relaying commands for your needy self. People who refuse to use comms without a good reason are considered untrustworthy and annoying. Which is why I'm not part of your corporation. See? I'm not bothering you, you're not bothering me. But don't whine that players like me aren't joining the part of the game you think we should. Voice comms in video games was not a thing until relatively recently (last 10-15 years). Some of us old farts aren't interested and it is a barrier for entry to a lot of things. I still enjoy the game. I am still part of a corporation and I still PvP... I just do it solo in FW complexes in Low sec instead of in alliance fleets in null. I likely could be somewhat helpful in those fleets... but I don't want to take part in voice comms so I don't participate. Sorry if that annoys you.
The annoying part is how weird all that is. In almost 10 years of playing EVE I've never met anyone who was opposed to voice comms.
And your age has nothing to do with it, I started gaming well before voice comms too (I'm 42, and Im one of the young ones of the group), I have no problem using them. My last corp had a 73 year old player, he never had any problem with voice comms either
It's so odd that if someone were to tell me they didn't want to use voice comms It would be easy for me to believe they were a spy or something.
What is the actual issue you have with voice comms, if you want to share? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3242
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 15:05:59 -
[460] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Lawrence Lawton wrote:Scialt wrote: I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
You're right that it's not realistic. Voice comms are by far the most efficient way to communicate commands in a fleet engagement, so not using them would be a disadvantage. Telling people you are deaf would mean some do-gooder is wasting his time relaying commands for your needy self. People who refuse to use comms without a good reason are considered untrustworthy and annoying. Which is why I'm not part of your corporation. See? I'm not bothering you, you're not bothering me. But don't whine that players like me aren't joining the part of the game you think we should. Voice comms in video games was not a thing until relatively recently (last 10-15 years). Some of us old farts aren't interested and it is a barrier for entry to a lot of things. I still enjoy the game. I am still part of a corporation and I still PvP... I just do it solo in FW complexes in Low sec instead of in alliance fleets in null. I likely could be somewhat helpful in those fleets... but I don't want to take part in voice comms so I don't participate. Sorry if that annoys you.
Voice comms mostly became a thing when large group cooperative game play became a thing because people realized it's much easier to tell someone to do something than it is to type. Typing a command to someone else essentially mean you stop doing your own job because you would still need your hands for that and usually take more time than just saying the exact same word. Any competitive group will want to have better communication. Why some people would rather stay in the "stone age" of comms and still type stuff is a mystery to me. |
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1056
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 15:18:09 -
[461] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Voice comms mostly became a thing when large group cooperative game play became a thing because people realized it's much easier to tell someone to do something than it is to type. Typing a command to someone else essentially mean you stop doing your own job because you would still need your hands for that and usually take more time than just saying the exact same word. Any competitive group will want to have better communication. Why some people would rather stay in the "stone age" of comms and still type stuff is a mystery to me.
Yeah some stuff like flying logi in a small to medium sized fleet (might get away with it more if you have redundancy in a large fleet) is going to put you at a severe disadvantage if you aren't using voice comms and just going to result in people losing ships unnecessarily.
Don't understand the resistance to it myself - though it can be a bit of a wall to get past initially - I'm pretty socially reserved and almost introverted but after a couple of hours realised no one gives a **** - jump on a couple of the bigger public roams that use voice comms and (aside from the amount of inane babble will drive you crazy) you pretty soon get used to it - there is almost always someone who loves the sound of their own voice enough to take any pressure off you to engage in anything beyond the most basic conversation.
Do understand for some there are issues like one of my previous corp had to play in a busy/community living room or something which made it difficult. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 16:22:49 -
[462] - Quote
Nobody is forcing anybody. CCP makes the decisions.
We who dont like corps and/or comms will stay away from them for now.
Eve is not for everybody but somehow I think CCP want to change that. Unfortunately they dont think like a company, more like a social club.
Here the players dictate what should and should not happen.
WGs approach is more like "If you dont like it, **** off" and any mutiny is dealt with a permaban.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 16:57:52 -
[463] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Scialt wrote:Lawrence Lawton wrote:Scialt wrote: I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
You're right that it's not realistic. Voice comms are by far the most efficient way to communicate commands in a fleet engagement, so not using them would be a disadvantage. Telling people you are deaf would mean some do-gooder is wasting his time relaying commands for your needy self. People who refuse to use comms without a good reason are considered untrustworthy and annoying. Which is why I'm not part of your corporation. See? I'm not bothering you, you're not bothering me. But don't whine that players like me aren't joining the part of the game you think we should. Voice comms in video games was not a thing until relatively recently (last 10-15 years). Some of us old farts aren't interested and it is a barrier for entry to a lot of things. I still enjoy the game. I am still part of a corporation and I still PvP... I just do it solo in FW complexes in Low sec instead of in alliance fleets in null. I likely could be somewhat helpful in those fleets... but I don't want to take part in voice comms so I don't participate. Sorry if that annoys you. The annoying part is how weird all that is. In almost 10 years of playing EVE I've never met anyone who was opposed to voice comms. And your age has nothing to do with it, I started gaming well before voice comms too (I'm 42, and Im one of the young ones of the group), I have no problem using them. My last corp had a 73 year old player, he never had any problem with voice comms either It's so odd that if someone were to tell me they didn't want to use voice comms It would be easy for me to believe they were a spy or something. What is the actual issue you have with voice comms, if you want to share?
Not sure. Tried it out first on another game (small group multiplayer D&D game on NWN platform... the recent one not the old compuserve one thought I played that game too) after playing for a while with text based communications... and I just despised it. Perhaps it was the fact that with text I could get immersion that the DM and other players voices couldn't communicate well... not sure exactly. It just wasn't enjoyable at all.
I do also have some slight tinnitus which presents some issues with poor sound quality being hard for me to understand. I largely avoid phone conversations in favor of text message or e-mail communication for that reason... I end up saying "WHAT?" over and over again if someone has a sub-par mic on their phone. I've got no problem talking to people in person... but I despise talking to people over electronic mediums.
I'm not expecting the game to adapt to me. But given the fact I was responding to someone else who doesn't want to get on comms, it's clear I'm not the only person who doesn't enjoy that part of the game. And to be honest Eve has better in-game communication methods other than voice compared to many other MMO's. The fleet broadcast mechanics and chat windows are way better than many other games party-chat options when engaged in PvP.
Again... I'm not expecting everyone to change their play style. It's just the reason I primarily PvP as a solo player despite being in a corporation that runs PvP fleets. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 17:08:29 -
[464] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Voice comms mostly became a thing when large group cooperative game play became a thing because people realized it's much easier to tell someone to do something than it is to type. Typing a command to someone else essentially mean you stop doing your own job because you would still need your hands for that and usually take more time than just saying the exact same word. Any competitive group will want to have better communication. Why some people would rather stay in the "stone age" of comms and still type stuff is a mystery to me.
I would point out that in many places text messaging has replaced telephone conversations as a primary medium of communication. The view that text is "stone age" isn't a universal.
To me text is more clear, harder to misinterpret and a better way to filter out "noise". If 10 people are talking at once in a text channel I can follow it. I cannot in a voice channel.
The main benefit of voice is the obvious one... you don't use your mouth to play the game (at least I assume people don't). That means it's available to communicate while still controlling the game and allows you to get things out quicker since you're not having to switch from gameplay to typing text.
I'm not unaware of the advantages. I just am not interested in using voice comms. I'll stick to solo pvp as that's the option I have.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3244
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 17:39:49 -
[465] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Voice comms mostly became a thing when large group cooperative game play became a thing because people realized it's much easier to tell someone to do something than it is to type. Typing a command to someone else essentially mean you stop doing your own job because you would still need your hands for that and usually take more time than just saying the exact same word. Any competitive group will want to have better communication. Why some people would rather stay in the "stone age" of comms and still type stuff is a mystery to me.
I would point out that in many places text messaging has replaced telephone conversations as a primary medium of communication. The view that text is "stone age" isn't a universal.
Only for communication that does not need to be instant and can be made while "disabling" your hands while you communicate which does not apply in most case for this game. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 17:42:40 -
[466] - Quote
There is also ingame HUD quick select for direct commands.
Also might be more serious corporations that keeps the chatter to bare minimum. What I have seen tends to be noisy college byob chatter.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6252
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 17:49:25 -
[467] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Voice comms mostly became a thing when large group cooperative game play became a thing because people realized it's much easier to tell someone to do something than it is to type. Typing a command to someone else essentially mean you stop doing your own job because you would still need your hands for that and usually take more time than just saying the exact same word. Any competitive group will want to have better communication. Why some people would rather stay in the "stone age" of comms and still type stuff is a mystery to me.
I would point out that in many places text messaging has replaced telephone conversations as a primary medium of communication. The view that text is "stone age" isn't a universal. To me text is more clear, harder to misinterpret and a better way to filter out "noise". If 10 people are talking at once in a text channel I can follow it. I cannot in a voice channel. The main benefit of voice is the obvious one... you don't use your mouth to play the game (at least I assume people don't). That means it's available to communicate while still controlling the game and allows you to get things out quicker since you're not having to switch from gameplay to typing text. I'm not unaware of the advantages. I just am not interested in using voice comms. I'll stick to solo pvp as that's the option I have.
And more time consuming. I was working on a lengthy email to explain a question...stopped, picked up the phone and called. I said, "I'm calling because an email would just be long and convoluted...." At the end of the conversation the person agreed, phone call was better.
But hey, this is EVE, play how you like. But it does create some limitations, but if you can live with them it is all good then.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6252
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 17:50:56 -
[468] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:There is also ingame HUD quick select for direct commands.
Also might be more serious corporations that keeps the chatter to bare minimum. What I have seen tends to be noisy college byob chatter.
Depends on the type of fleet too. A mining op in HS will be very relaxed and lots of chatter. A combat fleet in a big battle will have very, very little chatter...unless it is TEST.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1056
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 17:53:49 -
[469] - Quote
Outside of (really) casual roams most fleets I've been in have imposed "battle comms" any time anything is going on and anyone talking over the FC, etc. unless its critical to what is going on gets muted.
Text can't even come close if you are playing the game seriously for many roles in PVP for instance if say you just accidentally burnt out your local reps on a triage carrier you need the FC to know like as of yesterday and every moment they aren't seeing the text message and/or having to take attention from other things to read that text is costing valuable time and so on. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 18:04:04 -
[470] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Outside of (really) casual roams most fleets I've been in have imposed "battle comms" any time anything is going on and anyone talking over the FC, etc. unless its critical to what is going on gets muted.
Text can't even come close if you are playing the game seriously for many roles in PVP for instance if say you just accidentally burnt out your local reps on a triage carrier you need the FC to know like as of yesterday and every moment they aren't seeing the text message and/or having to take attention from other things to read that text is costing valuable time and so on.
Been twice in a fleet and texting isnt really an option. You are always 2 actions behind.
Damn, this is a hard nut to crack.
Maybe the Clint Eastwood type, with only some grunting. Passive aggressive role with some "Roger That"
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
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Marrisa Flash
New Destiny Kingdom
1
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 18:13:03 -
[471] - Quote
Thomas Lot wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operation of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec.
I would support these two ideas.
IF the true purpose of alpha is to allow new players to experience the game and decide if they want to pay to open it up, limiting them from playing in what is arguably more fun areas of low and null space will not allow them to see how much fun can be had in eve... |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
3407
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 18:43:04 -
[472] - Quote
I don't think alpha accounts have anything to do with it. There's an impression amongst some gamers that the older players are entrenched and nobody could "catch up" to them... I obviously don't believe this but that's the prevailing impression. I think CCP should speed up training for lower SP accounts. Something like <10 mil SP gets you an 10x multiplier. 10-30mil SP = 8x training multiplier, etc...
I'm just over 200 mil SP. I actually wish skills weren't even a thing. 'If you can buy it you can fly it' is my attitude.
Signatures should be used responsibly...
|
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
635
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 18:47:49 -
[473] - Quote
Gogela wrote:I don't think alpha accounts have anything to do with it. There's an impression amongst some gamers that the older players are entrenched and nobody could "catch up" to them... I obviously don't believe this but that's the prevailing impression. I think CCP should speed up training for lower SP accounts. Something like <10 mil SP gets you an 10x multiplier. 10-30mil SP = 8x training multiplier, etc...
I'm just over 200 mil SP. I actually wish skills weren't even a thing. 'If you can buy it you can fly it' is my attitude.
top lel kek! learn a skill that may be very useful to you: PATIENCE |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 19:07:30 -
[474] - Quote
Deleted: Another bad idea.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
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Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
319
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 19:20:25 -
[475] - Quote
Lawrence Lawton wrote:lilol' me wrote: for me ill always say these things are problems
Scamming - big problem Ganking - big problem Risk vs Reward - CCP have nerfed reward its pathetic. I mean you do a lvl 3 mission and you get literally not much for your efforts Immersion - the game can be terribly boring, missions are boring, pvp well isnt exactly exciting, there is no life in eve, you only ever see someone at a station or at a gate really, there is nothing in between. Citadels help a little on that but i want to see more life happening.
Scamming - one of the selling points of EVE Ganking - one of the selling points of EVE Risk vs Reward - There is almost zero risk in running a lvl 3 mission run in highsec, so of course the reward is low. Try running a DED site in in low or null. The risk/reward ratio in highsec is actually imbalanced in the other direction. Many people go months without losing anything and stay in highsec forever. (Nerf highsec incursions!) Immersion - The PvE is predictable, repetitive, and unchallenging. That is because EVE is a social PvP game. If you think PvP is not exciting then you're doing it wrong. You are a carebear and you should feel bad about it. Your expectations are completely off. Highsec is like training wheels for people who don't know how to play yet. The solution to your problem is to stop playing EVE like a solo theme park game, join a decent corp or alliance, and get out of highsec.
Well captain Sheeple. he has no problem, not everyone needs a crutch, just because you are a bad player as an individual that needs numbers it doesnt mean he should become one. I dont begrudge anyone a game style, just like you can be an idiot and be all you can be, some others play the game with some character and creativity. As far as the rest of your post it's just gibberish and some of the worst financial moves CCP could make. |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1057
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 19:22:21 -
[476] - Quote
Gogela wrote:I don't think alpha accounts have anything to do with it. There's an impression amongst some gamers that the older players are entrenched and nobody could "catch up" to them... I obviously don't believe this but that's the prevailing impression. I think CCP should speed up training for lower SP accounts. Something like <10 mil SP gets you an 10x multiplier. 10-30mil SP = 8x training multiplier, etc...
I'm just over 200 mil SP. I actually wish skills weren't even a thing. 'If you can buy it you can fly it' is my attitude.
I think that is more an issue for some (not all) new players when they are confused with what skills and fittings, etc. they need and not aware so much of the parts they can play with lesser skills in a fleet and so on. Most lose that impression once they get upto reasonably decent cruiser skills with T2 medium weapons and mostly T2 modules, etc. it might be worth some kind of more structured progression to that point if the name of the game is broadening the appeal of the game.
If you start accelerating the earlier bits too much there is a risk you just move the problem on without really solving it.
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
63
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 19:52:34 -
[477] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Voice comms mostly became a thing when large group cooperative game play became a thing because people realized it's much easier to tell someone to do something than it is to type. Typing a command to someone else essentially mean you stop doing your own job because you would still need your hands for that and usually take more time than just saying the exact same word. Any competitive group will want to have better communication. Why some people would rather stay in the "stone age" of comms and still type stuff is a mystery to me.
I would point out that in many places text messaging has replaced telephone conversations as a primary medium of communication. The view that text is "stone age" isn't a universal. To me text is more clear, harder to misinterpret and a better way to filter out "noise". If 10 people are talking at once in a text channel I can follow it. I cannot in a voice channel. The main benefit of voice is the obvious one... you don't use your mouth to play the game (at least I assume people don't). That means it's available to communicate while still controlling the game and allows you to get things out quicker since you're not having to switch from gameplay to typing text. I'm not unaware of the advantages. I just am not interested in using voice comms. I'll stick to solo pvp as that's the option I have. And more time consuming. I was working on a lengthy email to explain a question...stopped, picked up the phone and called. I said, "I'm calling because an email would just be long and convoluted...." At the end of the conversation the person agreed, phone call was better. But hey, this is EVE, play how you like. But it does create some limitations, but if you can live with them it is all good then.
Well, I tend to walk to people's desks when something needs to be talked through instead of calling them.
I'd say voice communications are faster when you need confirmation that the other person understands what you're telling them or need feedback... but they tend not to be quicker when you are simply providing information. If I need to tell my wife that I'm on my way to pick our son up... a text is faster than a phone call. If I need to check if she wants me to pick up dinner... and if so from where... and what she wants to order... yeah, you call.
Saying: "Primary is ship A, secondary is ship B" doesn't require feedback. Broadcasting for reps doesn't either. The benefit from voice only comes from not having to stop controlling your ship to type... not from anything inherently beneficial from using voice to communicate. Not only that... if my wife was asking me something at the moment a voice command came in I miss it permanently... while a text command is still there for me to read a second later when I look back at my screen.
That being said... in Eve the only way to generate Text is to stop piloting your ship. So I understand why fleets use voice comms. I just choose not to take part.
|
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
2107
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 20:25:49 -
[478] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Scialt wrote:Lawrence Lawton wrote:Scialt wrote: I don't really want to deal with voice commands either. I know that's not realistic for this game or most other MMO's at this point... it's just how I prefer to interact (via text communication rather than voice). I keep hoping some corporation of deaf players comes along for me to join.
For a while I thought I should just lie and tell everyone that I was deaf as a way to get them to stop telling me to get on comms.
You're right that it's not realistic. Voice comms are by far the most efficient way to communicate commands in a fleet engagement, so not using them would be a disadvantage. Telling people you are deaf would mean some do-gooder is wasting his time relaying commands for your needy self. People who refuse to use comms without a good reason are considered untrustworthy and annoying. Which is why I'm not part of your corporation. See? I'm not bothering you, you're not bothering me. But don't whine that players like me aren't joining the part of the game you think we should. Voice comms in video games was not a thing until relatively recently (last 10-15 years). Some of us old farts aren't interested and it is a barrier for entry to a lot of things. I still enjoy the game. I am still part of a corporation and I still PvP... I just do it solo in FW complexes in Low sec instead of in alliance fleets in null. I likely could be somewhat helpful in those fleets... but I don't want to take part in voice comms so I don't participate. Sorry if that annoys you. The annoying part is how weird all that is. In almost 10 years of playing EVE I've never met anyone who was opposed to voice comms. And your age has nothing to do with it, I started gaming well before voice comms too (I'm 42, and Im one of the young ones of the group), I have no problem using them. My last corp had a 73 year old player, he never had any problem with voice comms either It's so odd that if someone were to tell me they didn't want to use voice comms It would be easy for me to believe they were a spy or something. What is the actual issue you have with voice comms, if you want to share? Maybe it mostly depends of your lifestyle....
Personally i spend 13 to 14 hours a day "on public". People constantly talking around. I talk too time by time. No problem here. But when i get home i just want to have some silence. Yes, i always join corp/alliance roams and have no problem with comms. But if nothing happens i just set myself to 'afk' and have some rest from peoples talkings.
On the other hand there are people who just like to talk. They do not need reasons for it. Every topic is good enough. (and i only join conversation if the topic is really interesting for me).
Some person told that being on comms might be ok when you don't need to talk. "you just listen". But then what if you really do not care about other peoples stuff? Don't you already have enough of noise around you (other peoples, advertisements, TVs, etc...)?
I see why some people keep out of voice comms.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1057
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 20:42:00 -
[479] - Quote
Scialt wrote: I'd say voice communications are faster when you need confirmation that the other person understands what you're telling them or need feedback... but they tend not to be quicker when you are simply providing information. If I need to tell my wife that I'm on my way to pick our son up... a text is faster than a phone call. If I need to check if she wants me to pick up dinner... and if so from where... and what she wants to order... yeah, you call.
Saying: "Primary is ship A, secondary is ship B" doesn't require feedback. Broadcasting for reps doesn't either. The benefit from voice only comes from not having to stop controlling your ship to type... not from anything inherently beneficial from using voice to communicate. Not only that... if my wife was asking me something at the moment a voice command came in I miss it permanently... while a text command is still there for me to read a second later when I look back at my screen.
Good luck with getting the attention of the right person fast enough if say you are logi and someone in fleet is wandering out of rep range, etc. with both the issues of getting that specific persons attention fast and not dropping reps if the hostiles swap targets or spread damage, etc. at the same time.
Granted there are fleet roles where very little feedback is required but its very rare that text makes things more fluid in any kind of medium sized PVP action. |
Louise Verger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.21 22:57:01 -
[480] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Gogela wrote:I don't think alpha accounts have anything to do with it. There's an impression amongst some gamers that the older players are entrenched and nobody could "catch up" to them... I obviously don't believe this but that's the prevailing impression. I think CCP should speed up training for lower SP accounts. Something like <10 mil SP gets you an 10x multiplier. 10-30mil SP = 8x training multiplier, etc...
I'm just over 200 mil SP. I actually wish skills weren't even a thing. 'If you can buy it you can fly it' is my attitude. top lel kek! learn a skill that may be very useful to you: PATIENCE
Patience? This is not a question of patience. The game is simply hostile to new players. Being a pushover for months is anything but fun. What is the point of wasting a few month only to begin actually paly this game while there are others with interesting content for new players? One have to be quite a masochist to enjoy the beginning of one's career in EVE. No wonder most newcomers choose to leave. |
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
644
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 00:17:38 -
[481] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Gogela wrote:I don't think alpha accounts have anything to do with it. There's an impression amongst some gamers that the older players are entrenched and nobody could "catch up" to them... I obviously don't believe this but that's the prevailing impression. I think CCP should speed up training for lower SP accounts. Something like <10 mil SP gets you an 10x multiplier. 10-30mil SP = 8x training multiplier, etc...
I'm just over 200 mil SP. I actually wish skills weren't even a thing. 'If you can buy it you can fly it' is my attitude. top lel kek! learn a skill that may be very useful to you: PATIENCE Patience? This is not a question of patience. The game is simply hostile to new players. Being a pushover for months is anything but fun. What is the point of wasting a few month only to begin actually paly this game while there are others with interesting content for new players? One have to be quite a masochist to enjoy the beginning of one's career in EVE. No wonder most newcomers choose to leave.
players with 200mil SP started from 0 --> they are still here i started from 0, 2 years ago --> i'm still here people that i know that started recently --> are still here
or are we all masochist! could be or we know how to create our own content and losers that leave the game at the start need to learn it as well and HTFU or leave ^^
patience my little pawadan! have patience and the world will be yours
edit: instant gratification games are... ---------->>>>>>>>>>> that way |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
3408
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 03:34:44 -
[482] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Louise Verger wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Gogela wrote:I don't think alpha accounts have anything to do with it. There's an impression amongst some gamers that the older players are entrenched and nobody could "catch up" to them... I obviously don't believe this but that's the prevailing impression. I think CCP should speed up training for lower SP accounts. Something like <10 mil SP gets you an 10x multiplier. 10-30mil SP = 8x training multiplier, etc...
I'm just over 200 mil SP. I actually wish skills weren't even a thing. 'If you can buy it you can fly it' is my attitude. top lel kek! learn a skill that may be very useful to you: PATIENCE Patience? This is not a question of patience. The game is simply hostile to new players. Being a pushover for months is anything but fun. What is the point of wasting a few month only to begin actually paly this game while there are others with interesting content for new players? One have to be quite a masochist to enjoy the beginning of one's career in EVE. No wonder most newcomers choose to leave. players with 200mil SP started from 0 --> they are still here i started from 0, 2 years ago --> i'm still here people that i know that started recently --> are still here or are we all masochist! could be or we know how to create our own content and losers that leave the game at the start need to learn it as well and HTFU or leave ^^ patience my little pawadan! have patience and the world will be yours edit: instant gratification games are... ---------->>>>>>>>>>> that way
Nah who cares? Patience smachents; it's not a virtue. It's an artificial barrier. I guarantee you if you remove the limits of "skills" as a concept, EvE will get a lot more interesting really fast. An interesting and limitless EvE is what will attract new players. That said, I'm obviously going to gank the hell out of their overpriced coffins, but learning will be occurring as I do. EvE should be more about the decisions you make, less about "time".
Signatures should be used responsibly...
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6253
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 04:35:05 -
[483] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Gogela wrote:I don't think alpha accounts have anything to do with it. There's an impression amongst some gamers that the older players are entrenched and nobody could "catch up" to them... I obviously don't believe this but that's the prevailing impression. I think CCP should speed up training for lower SP accounts. Something like <10 mil SP gets you an 10x multiplier. 10-30mil SP = 8x training multiplier, etc...
I'm just over 200 mil SP. I actually wish skills weren't even a thing. 'If you can buy it you can fly it' is my attitude. top lel kek! learn a skill that may be very useful to you: PATIENCE Patience? This is not a question of patience. The game is simply hostile to new players. Being a pushover for months is anything but fun. What is the point of wasting a few month only to begin actually paly this game while there are others with interesting content for new players? One have to be quite a masochist to enjoy the beginning of one's career in EVE. No wonder most newcomers choose to leave.
*sigh*
You know you can work with others right? Even a multi-year veteran will die to players with much less time in game.
Having more SP, having more ISK, etc. is not an "I win" button.
If you go in with Karmafleet, TEST, EVE Uni, Brave, Pandemic Horde, etc. you can get right into the thick of the fight. All of those groups welcome new players and will help them out.
The worst thing you can do is try to go it alone, IMO. Unless you are willing to unwind your credit card you are going to have some major obstacles that a group of friends can help you with.
When you are new playing with others is key. When you are a bitter vet...playing with others is key. I just switched alliance.corp after 8 years because my old corp/alliance largely went into hibernation. To obtain content I decided to join a corp that is active.
Now you can ignore all this...but well, whatever.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Louise Verger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 08:51:51 -
[484] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:players with 200mil SP started from 0 --> they are still here i started from 0, 2 years ago --> i'm still here people that i know that started recently --> are still here or are we all masochist! could be or we know how to create our own content and losers that leave the game at the start need to learn it as well and HTFU or leave ^^ patience my little pawadan! have patience and the world will be yours edit: instant gratification games are... ---------->>>>>>>>>>> that way
Even If you achieved something playing this game for two years it does not justify such arrogance. Somehow I don't feel inferior, not at all. It night have not occurred to you but people you call 'losers' do not vanish, it's just they have got better things to do.
Quote:If you go in with Karmafleet, TEST, EVE Uni, Brave, Pandemic Horde, etc. you can get right into the thick of the fight. All of those groups welcome new players and will help them out.
PvP in EVE is a bit of a joke. I haven't seen another game where PvP is less dependent on skill. It is like 90% money and 9% luck. Besides, it's just boring. There is not much PvP apart from gank and I'm not interested in it. It's funny you suggested to join one of those corps. Although they are not as despicable as CODE. but still mostly scumbags and i'd rather stay away from that lot.
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6253
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 08:54:15 -
[485] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:Soel Reit wrote:players with 200mil SP started from 0 --> they are still here i started from 0, 2 years ago --> i'm still here people that i know that started recently --> are still here or are we all masochist! could be or we know how to create our own content and losers that leave the game at the start need to learn it as well and HTFU or leave ^^ patience my little pawadan! have patience and the world will be yours edit: instant gratification games are... ---------->>>>>>>>>>> that way Even If you achieved something playing this game for two years it does not justify such arrogance. Somehow I don't feel inferior, not at all. It night have not occurred to you but people you call 'losers' do not vanish, it's just they have got better things to do. Quote:If you go in with Karmafleet, TEST, EVE Uni, Brave, Pandemic Horde, etc. you can get right into the thick of the fight. All of those groups welcome new players and will help them out.
PvP in EVE is a bit of a joke. I haven't seen another game where PvP is less dependent on skill. It is like 90% money and 9% luck. Besides, it's just boring. There is not much PvP apart from gank and I'm not interested in it. It's funny you suggested to join one of those corps. Although they are not as despicable as CODE. but still mostly scumbags and i'd rather stay away from that lot.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
2279
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 09:11:57 -
[486] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote: Patience? This is not a question of patience. The game is simply hostile to new players. Being a pushover for months is anything but fun. What is the point of wasting a few month only to begin actually paly this game while there are others with interesting content for new players? One have to be quite a masochist to enjoy the beginning of one's career in EVE. No wonder most newcomers choose to leave.
Yes and no. Yes, when you get into a ship, undock and fly somewhere in low-sec, null-sec or Wormholes you will get shot down sooner or later. EVE is very hostile, I would even say the most hostile game I know. But this is not a new player thing, I would say at least 90% of EVE's players die if they just undock and leave the safety of highsec or their corpGÇÖs/allianceGÇÖs space solo. PVP in EVE is about being very sneaky or slippery when solo, forming fleets and gangs, planning, luring into traps, flying hard counter fits and any other advantage you can think of. ItGÇÖs NOT for everyone and is was never meant to be. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers EVEolution.
590
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 09:15:41 -
[487] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time.
unristricted alphas would drive all paying clients to alphas, sooner or later it doesn't matter, no cash flow to CCP = dead CCP
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
* Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space.
so split the community in half, those that pay in low and null those that don't in high, when you know well splitting a community is the last thing you want to do.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
* Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec.
another community splitting move, sub up and join the blocks or stay in high sec.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
* Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec.
yup ease the transition to low sec by banning all new players who aren't subbed yet, oh hang on thats never going to work.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
* Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
harvest implants,, hmmm not a bad idea that CCP went over before and never released.
you do know this is just another EVE is dying thread yea?
|
das licht
C4-DATA
14
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 12:32:21 -
[488] - Quote
Is this the EVE-Graveyard here? |
Isengrimus
Call of the Wild The Minions.
32
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 12:57:50 -
[489] - Quote
Interesting that the OP happily ignores the fact that, comparing to the same time last year, we had 6k characters more online in the recent weekend that there were in the corresponding weekend a year ago. 6k characters is around 15% increase - this is not negligible.
All of the proposed ideas are terrible, for the reasons elaborated above. |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1058
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 14:10:13 -
[490] - Quote
Isengrimus wrote:Interesting that the OP happily ignores the fact that, comparing to the same time last year, we had 6k characters more online in the recent weekend that there were in the corresponding weekend a year ago. 6k characters is around 15% increase - this is not negligible.
All of the proposed ideas are terrible, for the reasons elaborated above.
As someone else pointed out though unfortunately it hasn't reversed or even stabilised the trend, just delayed it a bit. |
|
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
26
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 14:14:43 -
[491] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:[quote=Arthur Aihaken] The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.
I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.
Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...
This is the game. The entitled, as in this post. Rent space in null, umm no. On and on.
The game is over. Big alliances are entrenched and carebearing it out.
Thank you drive thru. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2625
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 20:29:02 -
[492] - Quote
So lets unpack this. Folks could try Eve for free previously with all sorts of promotions where you could get a 30 day trial. They tried it and very much like a cupcake frosted with liverwurst decided Eve was not for them. So CCP makes it so you play play a slightly crippled version of Eve for free but for longer and the liver cake still seems to be unpopular. Who would have guessed!
Could it be that there is a limited number of people that like their cupcakes combined with their liver based lunch items? That might be where an answer can be found.
So what would make that mythical Eve that matches the player base of other games like WoW have achieved? I'd argue you couldn't still have "Eve" and be WoW. What would you have to change in Eve to get WEvE? (WoW/Eve)
- Dumb it down. I would have to be a lot more simple. - Add more rinse and repeat PVE - Make it "easier" to relate to. Understanding that you are your ship and not some sort of Elf wandering around a Forrest seems to be a leap too far for the simpler minds. - remove any actual risk. - get rid of all elements that allow "immoral" activities like scamming or ganking. You know all the stuff that makes Eve what Eve is. - add lots of pointless bling! Give your characters "unique" hats and silly clothes. - add pets because of the puppies and bunnies! - make things in the game that sort of map to the real world. Let you bake a holiday pie, collect Christmas presents or something Halloween themed! - make PvP consensual
So basically remove everything that makes Eve special.
Another thing I find interesting about Eve is it is true that the game has reached the point where a lot of low hanging fruit is gone. Big alliances have sowed up a lot of the valuable stuff in Eve. But I think you have to view that as forcing you to adapt. The game gets harder the longer you stay in it which is good. I does mean you learn new approaches and look for new opportunities. Doing the same thing will not always produce the same results. I think that is not such a bad thing. Those other games can keep their elves and holiday baking! |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
66
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 21:10:21 -
[493] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:
Another thing I find interesting about Eve is it is true that the game has reached the point where a lot of low hanging fruit is gone. Big alliances have sowed up a lot of the valuable stuff in Eve. But I think you have to view that as forcing you to adapt. The game gets harder the longer you stay in it which is good. I does mean you learn new approaches and look for new opportunities. Doing the same thing will not always produce the same results. I think that is not such a bad thing. Those other games can keep their elves and holiday baking!
Just a point on this... Eve was already mature in 2008 when I played before recently returning. People had already staked claims out in Null and controlled large chunks of space.
But the alliances controlling space have changed. BOB doesn't control half of Null anymore for example.
Yeah... it might take 5 years to build up an alliance to the point you can evict and take over space from one of the holders now... but they did the same thing to Evict the people who had it before. It's not fast... but it is possible still I think. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6257
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 22:10:25 -
[494] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote: - add pets because of the puppies and bunnies
Pets?!?! Puppies and bunnies?!?!? In space?!?!?!
Okay, I'm convinced.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1058
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 22:38:01 -
[495] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So lets unpack this. Folks could try Eve for free previously with all sorts of promotions where you could get a 30 day trial. They tried it and very much like a cupcake frosted with liverwurst decided Eve was not for them. So CCP makes it so you play play a slightly crippled version of Eve for free but for longer and the liver cake still seems to be unpopular. Who would have guessed!
Could it be that there is a limited number of people that like their cupcakes combined with their liver based lunch items? That might be where an answer can be found.
So what would make that mythical Eve that matches the player base of other games like WoW have achieved? I'd argue you couldn't still have "Eve" and be WoW. What would you have to change in Eve to get WEvE? (WoW/Eve)
- Dumb it down. I would have to be a lot more simple. - Add more rinse and repeat PVE - Make it "easier" to relate to. Understanding that you are your ship and not some sort of Elf wandering around a Forrest seems to be a leap too far for the simpler minds. - remove any actual risk. - get rid of all elements that allow "immoral" activities like scamming or ganking. You know all the stuff that makes Eve what Eve is. - add lots of pointless bling! Give your characters "unique" hats and silly clothes. - add pets because of the puppies and bunnies! - make things in the game that sort of map to the real world. Let you bake a holiday pie, collect Christmas presents or something Halloween themed! - make PvP consensual
So basically remove everything that makes Eve special.
Another thing I find interesting about Eve is it is true that the game has reached the point where a lot of low hanging fruit is gone. Big alliances have sowed up a lot of the valuable stuff in Eve. But I think you have to view that as forcing you to adapt. The game gets harder the longer you stay in it which is good. I does mean you learn new approaches and look for new opportunities. Doing the same thing will not always produce the same results. I think that is not such a bad thing. Those other games can keep their elves and holiday baking!
First part is on the money IMO Eve has already picked up most of the people that are likely to suit its gameplay but I don't think it impossible to broaden its appeal without taking away what makes Eve, Eve though it might offend the most hardcore purists.
A structured progress (a more streamlined version of the old certificates) for the skills and modules for a player's first frigate and through to a T2 weapons, mostly T2 modules fit and core competency for a cruiser would go a long way. Likewise canned 2-4 player PVE arcs with a structure to push randoms to working together and 1-2 similar opportunities for likewise in PVP - I'll expand on it sometime I'm not typing on a tablet that has decided to run super slow :s |
Clint Iskwood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 00:32:40 -
[496] - Quote
Lets translate that
- Dumb it down. I would have to be a lot more simple. Buy sps and presto ,why wait, the grind? Play fast and hard, get bored and look for other titles.
- Add more rinse and repeat PVE - Sounds like average life in null. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o0Vv8lr41w
- Make it "easier" to relate to. Understanding that you are your ship and not some sort of Elf wandering around a Forrest seems to be a leap too far for the simpler minds. There has to be a tutorial for everything
- remove any actual risk. No more clone grades and sp loss , t2 ships can be insured like T1s, and now this plex wallet. Losing sps used to be a great motivator, a wake up call. Sadly, it will be missed.
- get rid of all elements that allow "immoral" activities like scamming or ganking. You know all the stuff that makes Eve what Eve is. Safety button First!!!
- add lots of pointless bling! Give your characters "unique" hats and silly clothes. I had hopes for incarna to turn into in-station bare knuckle boxing fights..... never happened. Ofc if Jenna Haze subscribes to Eve we could end up with Porncarna. There will be some serious Wishful thinking on this one
- add pets because of the puppies and bunnies! Plenty of those already
- make things in the game that sort of map to the real world. Let you bake a holiday pie, collect Christmas presents or something Halloween themed! Or play space microbiologist?!
- make PvP consensual [bWe start by throwing colourful fireworks to each other, and if we like it, we finally get to duel!!![/b]
As you might have guessed already, alpha state is the least problem in the game.
|
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
356
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 00:49:02 -
[497] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Issler Dainze wrote: - add pets because of the puppies and bunnies
Pets?!?! Puppies and bunnies?!?!? In space?!?!?!Okay, I'm convinced.
let me have a space goat and i'm sold. bonus points if it has a tiny little jetpack and one of those cheesy fishbowl helmets and I can use them as drones (that don't do damage, just bump harmlessly and adorably into ships) like a drone version of the festival launchers. |
Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 02:26:53 -
[498] - Quote
Alpha Free-Fire Zone
A constellation combining certain characteristics of High and Null Security. For lack of a better descriptor it can be Hybrid Null-Sec. Only Corvettes(Rookie ships) and Pods can activate the stargates connecting to this constellation. No other ships are allowed. All pilots can jump into this constellation but any Omega Pilot is stripped of his or her Omega status. In effect all pilots are Alpha pilots while located here. No cynos. No bombs. No bubbles. No structures of any kind that can't be carried in the cargo hold of a corvette. No compression in the NPC Stations. No refining in the NPC Stations. No industry in the NPC Stations.(no building the ships you can't gate in.) No wormholes. No gate guns. No stations guns. No Concord. No Crimewatch.(therefore no Sec loss for ship or pod destruction) 10-12 Null Sec type asteroid belts per system.(but no mercoxit) Instead of scores of big asteroids there should be hundreds of tiny asteroids. No asteroid should have a volume greater than half the volume of a corvette cargo hold. Belts should be not less than 100km across. Filling a cargo hold should involve having to travel from one asteroid to another. Base level asteroids only. No +5% or +10% asteroids. Belt rats and combat anomalies scaled for combat with Corvettes. Systems colored yellow: one station belonging to the appropriate school. System colored red: 12 stations; one for each school. I desperately want bubbles in the central(red colored) system. The only bubble usable by a corvette would be the Small Mobile Warp Disruptor, volume 65 m3. To make that happen CCP would have to allow Alphas to train Anchoring to Lv 2. Absent this the central red colored system would have to be omitted. |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
358
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 05:46:42 -
[499] - Quote
Dornier Pfeil wrote:Alpha Free-Fire ZoneA constellation combining certain characteristics of High and Null Security. For lack of a better descriptor it can be Hybrid Null-Sec. Only Corvettes(Rookie ships) and Pods can activate the stargates connecting to this constellation. No other ships are allowed. All pilots can jump into this constellation but any Omega Pilot is stripped of his or her Omega status. In effect all pilots are Alpha pilots while located here. No cynos. No bombs. No bubbles. No structures of any kind that can't be carried in the cargo hold of a corvette. No compression in the NPC Stations. No refining in the NPC Stations. No industry in the NPC Stations.(no building the ships you can't gate in.) No wormholes. No gate guns. No stations guns. No Concord. No Crimewatch.(therefore no Sec loss for ship or pod destruction) 10-12 Null Sec type asteroid belts per system.(but no mercoxit) Instead of scores of big asteroids there should be hundreds of tiny asteroids. No asteroid should have a volume greater than half the volume of a corvette cargo hold. Belts should be not less than 100km across. Filling a cargo hold should involve having to travel from one asteroid to another. Base level asteroids only. No +5% or +10% asteroids. Belt rats and combat anomalies scaled for combat with Corvettes. Systems colored yellow: one station belonging to the appropriate school. System colored red: 12 stations; one for each school. I desperately want bubbles in the central(red colored) system. The only bubble usable by a corvette would be the Small Mobile Warp Disruptor, volume 65 m3. To make that happen CCP would have to allow Alphas to train Anchoring to Lv 2. Absent this the central red colored system would have to be omitted.
So frigate wormholes but worse in every single way |
das licht
C4-DATA
14
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 05:57:28 -
[500] - Quote
Game over soon, maybe within 2 years, get over it! Depends if someone else wants to ride a dead horseGǪ Anyways, EVE lasted vey long for a game and life has more to offer! |
|
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
125
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 09:23:44 -
[501] - Quote
das licht wrote:Game over soon, maybe within 2 years, get over it! Depends if someone else wants to ride a dead horseGǪ Anyways, EVE lasted vey long for a game and life has more to offer! I played a very niche game for about four years. I remember a constant whining of the game dying, and it got very loud when our usual player count of 200 got dropped to 170~ish.
That was eight years ago. They still write me time to time if I'm coming back. Peak player count is 130-150~ish as I hear.
What was I saiyng? Nevermind.
Please bittervets, crawl back to your holes, transfer your stuff to joyful newcommers (like me). All you do is demoralizing the rest.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
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roberts dragon
Beak Enterprises TRUE VINE
69
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 10:22:47 -
[502] - Quote
i dont think its failed it is a way foward , we have ideas on how to do just about everything , after all we all experts we all give the best advise think you all agree .
after a while everyone gets bored and moves on to other things , so need free to play to move things foward and of course with skill injectors was the start of mt , the rest you all know what is coming in time .
the game in the near future will be a crossroads for the old vets they will have to shape up or ship out and be ganked , i think ganked . look at the changes with runescape all them years ago many plays quit , but the game is still going strong .
game has to move foward think outside the comfort zone ,taboo subjects some of them may happen .
if you want to help the game move foward the vets should get together and do a long list of options and have a poll on all of the issues ,list all the options you can think off and ask all players to tick box them , then go with the flow , like the csm vote just have a poll like that . let the people have thier say in poll fashion like with prime minsters presidents .
then i think we can all be on the same wave length
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NofriendNoLifeStilPostin
State War Academy Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 13:30:58 -
[503] - Quote
It has been pretty amusing watching those who would normally mock those who say "EVE is dying", clamoring about on this same issue.
It seems pretty ironic watching someone from CODE complain. Abusing ****** game mechanics to steal noob loot has been totally worth it for you guys. Why go into low or null when you can find easy targets that won't shoot back?
Maybe, just maybe if the game wasn't such a skill-less joke in terms of pvp and a griefers paradise, it would have more players. |
Sailyn Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 13:34:45 -
[504] - Quote
The alpha state was bound to fail. I can't see how ever more severe skill restrictions and halved training speed could possibly help newcomers. Ads might have attracted new players but they didn't know that ftp they are offered is worse than the trial. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
66
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 13:53:30 -
[505] - Quote
Sailyn Tissant wrote:The alpha state was bound to fail. I can't see how ever more severe skill restrictions and halved training speed could possibly help newcomers. Ads might have attracted new players but they didn't know that ftp they are offered is worse than the trial.
Well it brought me back after nearly 10 years away from Eve. I've heard many others re-subscribing after long breaks due to being lured back by the ads for the Alpha clone state.
Most games have a nerfed free-state in their games where subbing gets you full options. SWTOR has all sorts of limitations placed on free to play players (ligher limitations on premiums). Some people play permanently for free with those restrictions. Some pay some money to get past them. I fail to see why Eve's alpha state is any different. |
Telkhinas
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 14:36:56 -
[506] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Sailyn Tissant wrote:The alpha state was bound to fail. I can't see how ever more severe skill restrictions and halved training speed could possibly help newcomers. Ads might have attracted new players but they didn't know that ftp they are offered is worse than the trial. Well it brought me back after nearly 10 years away from Eve. I've heard many others re-subscribing after long breaks due to being lured back by the ads for the Alpha clone state. Most games have a nerfed free-state in their games where subbing gets you full options. SWTOR has all sorts of limitations placed on free to play players (ligher limitations on premiums). Some people play permanently for free with those restrictions. Some pay some money to get past them. I fail to see why Eve's alpha state is any different.
Yes but in order to get em back for good, you need to provide flexible incentives. Instead of nerfing access to the game, nerf access to economy. If they are unable to make isk in game, the only way to make up for losses is to buy plex's and cash them in. Maybe some1 has 200mil sps and doesnt have anything useful to skill for. By restricting ones ability to generate wealth, one will either sub and gain access to the full economic spectrum or inject isk with RL money. Alpha clones wont be able to send or receive isk from players. I think the key is the economy, its much more debilitating than restricting access to ships, but not restrictive to gameplay itself. And gameplay usually desides whether players stay or go.
That way you can access eve universe anywhere you go and decide how much you will invest. Resubbing for a month is time restricting, you might get RL aggro and not be able to enjoy your time and money. That eventually will discourage ppl.
I used to play eve alot, now i cannot afford the time commitment, im a weekend player. Ill pay and play when i feel like it. If others want to invest more time, fine, its their clock thats ticking.
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Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 16:36:36 -
[507] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:So frigate wormholes but worse in every single way.
Worse how? For making ISK? The idea here is not to create a new way to make ISK, we have plenty of those, but to have brand new players only a single jump from pew-pew that is reasonably equal to them. This was as close as I could come to something like an arena and still stay within universe immersion. A new pilot may look at Rookie chat and see 1-2 thousand pilots but when they look in local they see a few dozen because all the new players are spread across 24 different starter systems. They undock and there are just a handful of other players and they can't shoot any of them because of Crimewatch. This is not a bad thing but it's not exactly useful to get people interacting either. This "Alpha Constellation" can compress the spread. There will be a more epic feeling if local has, say, 10 times the players, and space has 10 times the ships moving to and fro.
Corporations can send their recruiters to the Alpha Constellation systems and hand out free sets of corvette tailored fittings and then give advice and help with combat. Entrepreneurial sorts could just stage out of the starter systems selling such fitting sets. The local chat would have to have the same rules as the Rookie chat to ensure it's usability. If local ends up looking like Jita chat, with spamming and scamming, it would not help anyone.
The military academy schools' stations could have agents offering missions similar to Aura and Career missions. for example: Go initiate aggression against another pilot's ship. Go initiate aggression against another pilot's pod. Go destroy another pilot's ship. Go destroy another pilot's pod. (Faction mission) Go hunt down and destroy a ship of our hated enemies the (fill-in blank). Go gank a miner. Go gank a ratter. Those are the easy mission types to conceive of. I'm sure you peeps can think up more. Call these the "Real World" Missions. There should be group missions too.
I've had a small bit of feedback by pm and with my friends in game chat and I've modified the map slightly. Even just 13 systems is still too spread out. Also if the systems have null type aster-belts 13 of them is too much even if the asters are tiny. So I've reduced the number of systems to only five. Four yellow systems around the exterior and the central red one connecting the four. Each yellow system would have 6 gates to the 6 starter systems and a single gate to the center system. Each yellow system would have three NPC stations belonging to the appropriate faction schools. Again the central system would have all 12 schools represented by a station.
New Eden Free-Fire Zone
When a player jumps into the Alpha Constellation they would NOT get a pop-up warning them they are doing something bad, they would, instead, get a pop-up encouraging them to hop-to-it.
"CONGRATULATIONS GRADUATE, YOU ARE JUMPING INTO THE NEW EDEN FREE-FIRE ZONE! GO GET'EM TIGER! DON'T LET THEM GO TILL THEY ARE SPACE DUST IN YOUR HANDS!" or something to that effect.
All you artistically creative types out there, get cracking. We need names for these five systems. |
Jason OPhee
Astartes' Guardians R O G U E
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 17:05:02 -
[508] - Quote
The way i see it eve needs to go back to before alpha clones. Or give incentives for subscribing and for remaining subbed. |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
358
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 17:18:06 -
[509] - Quote
Jason OPhee wrote:The way i see it eve needs to go back to before alpha clones. Or give incentives for subscribing and for remaining subbed.
Double the training speed of alphas, and unlimited access to skills isn't enough of an incentive for you?
alphas are (intentionally and rightfully) severely limited, if lifting those restrictions isn't enough for you then the game as a whole probably isn't right for you and no amount of extra shiny goodies is going to change that. |
Renee Frost
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 17:55:00 -
[510] - Quote
Sailyn Tissant wrote:The alpha state was bound to fail. I can't see how ever more severe skill restrictions and halved training speed could possibly help newcomers. Ads might have attracted new players but they didn't know that ftp they are offered is worse than the trial.
I subscribed after 2 months of playing Alpha. I knew about the skill restrictions and halved training speed, but it was still fun.
Alpha clones gave me a free way to do the same things that I would have to do as a new Omega players: doing level 1-3 missions, learning about and grinding standings to get to L4 or fix faction standings, learning how to fit and fly ships properly, doing corp stuff, learning how to mine in a venture, basic PvP, basic market trading and industry, exploration in a frigate etc etc.
Also, while on free Alpha clone time, I got those long initial skills required for Omega ships trained. E.g. Industry V. Sure, the training speed is doubled on Omega but I will still be waiting ~5 days and doing the stuff listed above, which is kinda wasting my subscription. |
|
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
142
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 18:27:28 -
[511] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
alphas are (intentionally and rightfully) severely limited, if lifting those restrictions isn't enough for you then the game as a whole probably isn't right for you and no amount of extra shiny goodies is going to change that.
And that is the problem.
Imagine you are a kid in a sandbox, and you are restricted to one corner of the sand box because you dont have enough time or money to play in the 'cool kids' section of the sandbox, or make the same kinds of sandcastles that they can make.
The restrictions to alpha clones should be far more sublte but not TOTAL restrictions. Don't restrict the ships and moduels they can use, c'mon! This defeats the purpose of the Sandbox!!
Nerf their train time if you want to, but new players need to feel as if the sky is the limit in Eve at all times.
Either that or make the whole damn game (minus cosmetic items such as skins) free to play.
Yeh the more i think about it the more I think Alpha clone implementation was a mistake. Hopefully a 'beta' clone will fix some problems but I fear the discouragement and damage has already been done to the poor and oppressed alpha players from my observations.
|
das licht
C4-DATA
14
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 18:29:37 -
[512] - Quote
The problem is, that people no longer want to pay for EVE. No one can solve this, no matter what they do. |
Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
667
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 18:41:58 -
[513] - Quote
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
alphas are (intentionally and rightfully) severely limited, if lifting those restrictions isn't enough for you then the game as a whole probably isn't right for you and no amount of extra shiny goodies is going to change that.
And that is the problem. Imagine you are a kid in a sandbox, and you are restricted to one corner of the sand box because you dont have enough time or money to play in the 'cool kids' section of the sandbox, or make the same kinds of sandcastles that they can make. The restrictions to alpha clones should be far more sublte but not TOTAL restrictions. Don't restrict the ships and moduels they can use, c'mon! This defeats the purpose of the Sandbox!! Nerf their train time if you want to, but new players need to feel as if the sky is the limit in Eve at all times. Either that or make the whole damn game (minus cosmetic items such as skins) free to play. Yeh the more i think about it the more I think Alpha clone implementation was a mistake. Hopefully a 'beta' clone will fix some problems but I fear the discouragement and damage has already been done to the poor and oppressed alpha players from my observations.
??? eve community is the oldest one i know! there are no kids playing eve. only adults roleplaying kids
|
Jason OPhee
Astartes' Guardians R O G U E
2
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 19:01:27 -
[514] - Quote
I played an omega clone a while back so the restrictions to me don't feel limiting as i can afford to play as omega and again as i said in the first part of my previous post the game needs to go back to prior to alpha clones. |
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics Federation Uprising
436
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 19:42:14 -
[515] - Quote
This is nonsense even from a factual level.
According to EVE Offline statistics, the current 24 high is 35,434 on Wednesday. The high of the week was PCU of 42,395. By contrast the maximum prior to Ascension was pushing 29k at most. To get even above 35k PCU you have to go all the way back to June and the infamous WWB.
That means our new normal was the most active time in the year leading up to ascension.
That is all without a strong advertisement push. That is all without a complete NPE. That is all without a new lore portal/website. That is all without a new AI that creates realistic encounters of all kinds.
_Pretty sure_ this claim is unfounded, but time will tell.
Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
66
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 19:47:14 -
[516] - Quote
Telkhinas wrote:Scialt wrote:Sailyn Tissant wrote:The alpha state was bound to fail. I can't see how ever more severe skill restrictions and halved training speed could possibly help newcomers. Ads might have attracted new players but they didn't know that ftp they are offered is worse than the trial. Well it brought me back after nearly 10 years away from Eve. I've heard many others re-subscribing after long breaks due to being lured back by the ads for the Alpha clone state. Most games have a nerfed free-state in their games where subbing gets you full options. SWTOR has all sorts of limitations placed on free to play players (ligher limitations on premiums). Some people play permanently for free with those restrictions. Some pay some money to get past them. I fail to see why Eve's alpha state is any different. Yes but in order to get em back for good, you need to provide flexible incentives. Instead of nerfing access to the game, nerf access to economy. If they are unable to make isk in game, the only way to make up for losses is to buy plex's and cash them in. Maybe some1 has 200mil sps and doesnt have anything useful to skill for. By restricting ones ability to generate wealth, one will either sub and gain access to the full economic spectrum or inject isk with RL money. Alpha clones wont be able to send or receive isk from players. I think the key is the economy, its much more debilitating than restricting access to ships, but not restrictive to gameplay itself. And gameplay usually desides whether players stay or go. That way you can access eve universe anywhere you go and decide how much you will invest. Resubbing for a month is time restricting, you might get RL aggro and not be able to enjoy your time and money. That eventually will discourage ppl. I used to play eve alot, now i cannot afford the time commitment, im a weekend player. Ill pay and play when i feel like it. If others want to invest more time, fine, its their clock thats ticking.
"For good" is an odd concept for me when it comes for a video game. I subbed two account for a year. I don't think I would ever say I'm playing a game "for good". Eve is an oddity in that it drew me back after a break of nearly a decade. I can't think of another game able to do that for me.
I think the restrictions they put on Alphas work very well... particularly for former subscribers.
Look, I lasted about two weeks in Alpha because my main is minmatar but I prefer to fly Gallente ships. Flying around in a Rupture with T1 guns while staring at the Ishtar and Dominix gathering dust in my hangar... well it made me want to resub. It gave me that taste and let me remember how much BETTER it tasted without the restrictions. I don't know how well it works for new folks... but it works good for those who already had an investment in the game and then left.
The key thing is there are some aspects of eve where if free accounts could take part it would extremely screw up the entire balance of the game. Free cloaked cyno alts in every system you want one? Unlimited PI toons passively earning isk? Able to max out skills I might not use as often like refining or invention or trade while not taking away from my training time on my main?
They did a really good job with selecting the skill limits for alphas so that they are of very little use as productive alts for omegas. Taking those restrictions away would be very bad.
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1059
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 21:04:57 -
[517] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:This is nonsense even from a factual level.
According to EVE Offline statistics, the current 24 high is 35,434 on Wednesday. The high of the week was PCU of 42,395. By contrast the maximum prior to Ascension was pushing 29k at most. To get even above 35k PCU you have to go all the way back to June and the infamous WWB.
That means our new normal was the most active time in the year leading up to ascension.
That is all without a strong advertisement push. That is all without a complete NPE. That is all without a new lore portal/website. That is all without a new AI that creates realistic encounters of all kinds.
_Pretty sure_ this claim is unfounded, but time will tell.
You have to look at the bigger picture though - Ascension has spiked the numbers but not reversed or stabilised the overall trend just delayed it a bit. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 21:52:22 -
[518] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:This is nonsense even from a factual level.
According to EVE Offline statistics, the current 24 high is 35,434 on Wednesday. The high of the week was PCU of 42,395. By contrast the maximum prior to Ascension was pushing 29k at most. To get even above 35k PCU you have to go all the way back to June and the infamous WWB.
That means our new normal was the most active time in the year leading up to ascension. .
The problem is money. How many of these 40k are paying customers?
Alphas dont pay and oldies dont pay. There is a (probably) smaller percentage thay buy subscriptions.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6263
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 21:54:21 -
[519] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ashterothi wrote:This is nonsense even from a factual level.
According to EVE Offline statistics, the current 24 high is 35,434 on Wednesday. The high of the week was PCU of 42,395. By contrast the maximum prior to Ascension was pushing 29k at most. To get even above 35k PCU you have to go all the way back to June and the infamous WWB.
That means our new normal was the most active time in the year leading up to ascension. . The problem is money. How many of these 40k are paying customers? Alphas dont pay and oldies dont pay. There is a (probably) smaller percentage thay buy subscriptions.
Oldies pay...unless they let their sub lapse.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 21:57:04 -
[520] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ashterothi wrote:This is nonsense even from a factual level.
According to EVE Offline statistics, the current 24 high is 35,434 on Wednesday. The high of the week was PCU of 42,395. By contrast the maximum prior to Ascension was pushing 29k at most. To get even above 35k PCU you have to go all the way back to June and the infamous WWB.
That means our new normal was the most active time in the year leading up to ascension. . The problem is money. How many of these 40k are paying customers? Alphas dont pay and oldies dont pay. There is a (probably) smaller percentage thay buy subscriptions. Oldies pay...unless they let their sub lapse.
Ok, bad choice of word. I meant people that have reached such a level they can buy gametime with ISK.
If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all.
|
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1059
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 22:12:30 -
[521] - Quote
Someone has to buy that gametime though and realistically many older players will still be paying atleast semi-frequently for some accounts even if they are fully funding others via PLEX. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6263
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 22:18:25 -
[522] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ashterothi wrote:This is nonsense even from a factual level.
According to EVE Offline statistics, the current 24 high is 35,434 on Wednesday. The high of the week was PCU of 42,395. By contrast the maximum prior to Ascension was pushing 29k at most. To get even above 35k PCU you have to go all the way back to June and the infamous WWB.
That means our new normal was the most active time in the year leading up to ascension. . The problem is money. How many of these 40k are paying customers? Alphas dont pay and oldies dont pay. There is a (probably) smaller percentage thay buy subscriptions. Oldies pay...unless they let their sub lapse. Ok, bad choice of word. I meant people that have reached such a level they can buy gametime with ISK.
Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,
Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.
So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
An-Nur
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 04:30:01 -
[523] - Quote
Removing mod/ship restrictions looks good at first glance, but that's working on the premise that is the missing attraction to get people into the game. It's not. If you really like the game you would sub to take advantage. Anything that messes with the current gameplay will only kill it for the current base. As I said before the only way to attract new players is to offer new content that doesn't mess with current game play. Something like Dust (but obviously not Dust) that gives other play style options in or as an adjunct to the game. This is a wasted conversation. EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers EVEolution.
591
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 08:55:53 -
[524] - Quote
The problem isn't EVE, The problem is a huge lack of advertisement.
not a single call for more advertisments of the product during this thread of bollox talk.
we all know the product rocks, we can only do so much telling mates about it, making videos, hosting websites and so on.
so maybe it's a sales issue?
Hey CCP sales,, get off your arses please and thanks very much |
Mistress Corvinus
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 11:34:08 -
[525] - Quote
The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main. |
An-Nur
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 11:44:47 -
[526] - Quote
Mistress Corvinus wrote:The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main. The skill point advantage is easily overcome with injectors. Its a silly argument. You'll overcome that and then complain vets have an unfair advantage in controlling null space. As has been pointed out ad nauseum sp dont mean all that much beyond a point. Skill and knowledge do. If alliances like Brave, Pandemic horde can thrive sp are obviously not much of an argument |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1059
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 14:34:30 -
[527] - Quote
Mistress Corvinus wrote:The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main.
I disagree - but the game does need a good balance of content that caters for the SP difference - especially I think some people who aren't maybe the immediate target audience for Eve online but not that far off get put off by the perception of the advantage of SP before they've really got upto speed with the game.
I was kind of mulling over the potential of canned PVP arenas in this context, though one of the draws for the game for me was spontaneous rather than arranged/contrived PVP.
I have almost zero experience of faction warfare so some of this might be entirely stupid but I was kind of thinking it would be kind of cool if there was say NPC faction titans in highsec and some kind of assembly/staging post in the relevant opposing lowsec faction warfare space where people could gather and join say a restricted 5 man t1 cruiser hull fleet (no corp restrictions from the highsec side, other side have to be part of the relevant faction) and be jumped into a walled garden 5v5 scenario in the relevant lowsec space where the winning fleet get some LP reward - scenarios being along the lines of say an NPC gallente federation rorqual supplying operations behind enemy lines suffered warp drive failure and is stranded in panic mode while trying to repair it - winning conditions being if it manages to warp or not after coming out of panic mode or one fleet is wiped with the deadspace pocket locked only to those 5v5 combatants (atleast until one side is defeated), etc. etc. the point being that in these kind of scenarios it would balance out the amount that skill points affected the outcome and also if implemented right with a progression from frig upwards would possibly attract people to go omega to get into the higher tiers that required ships they can't fly - plus be a reason for alphas to keep coming back if they can take part in upto the cruiser tier, etc. |
Louise Verger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 14:42:24 -
[528] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,
Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.
So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.
The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game?
An-Nur wrote:EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind
What do you think is so special about EVE? If the answer is PvP then what is so special about PvP in EVE that makes the game unique?
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3253
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 14:51:59 -
[529] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,
Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.
So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.
The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game?
Then Joe has 3 options. Start paying sub, find another PLEX provider on the market or quit. |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
362
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 14:56:41 -
[530] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,
Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.
So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.
The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game? An-Nur wrote:EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind What do you think is so special about EVE? If the answer is PvP then what is so special about PvP in EVE that makes the game unique?
The Joe would get his plex from frank who is still buying them for isk, and if frank quits the game then john would do it, if enough people stopped buying plex to get IG isk, then joe would either need to start subbing his account, or let lapse. but at that point the game will probably be ACTUALLY dead or in its death throes since at that point ccp would be hemoraging money.
as for the second, what is special about eve is that it is one of the few "unrestricted" environments in gaming, and one of, if not the only, with full destruction pvp (and pve, although pve deaths are less common) so your actions actually matter. loosing a ship or destroying someone elses ship have an impact greater than "running back to your body"
yes some of the big alliances like to tout how "its already been replaced" that doesn't mean that the destruction didn't have an impact, it just means that they did the work of having a new ship ready to go before hand. which means that miners (either their own or others) had to go and sit in belts, manufacturers had to build the ships, t2 bp's had to be invented etc.
If pvp in the game changed, or the loss from pvp became less permanent, the entire eve economy would collapse. so yes permanent destruction pvp is the heart of eve its what keeps the entire system beating. |
|
An-Nur
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 15:04:57 -
[531] - Quote
An-Nur wrote:EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind
What do you think is so special about EVE? If the answer is PvP then what is so special about PvP in EVE that makes the game unique? [/quote]
If you look at a lot of the other MMO's out there, the majority are fantasy RPG. Thats the first thing. That and they are first person in a way EVE is not makes for some obvious distinguishing features in player bases. Yes there is cross over I'm sure, but the next feature of EVE'S learning curve and the particulars of its harsh environment I just don't see as attractive to a lot of gamers. The other big one is that in many ways its "spreadsheets in space." There's no getting round this, and combining that with the learning curve, your either going to like it and refer to it as theirycrafting, or go no way thats just not what I call fun, and its too much for my brain. Then you have time invested. Viewed in line with the harsh reality of losing ships in gameplay, this makes for a very unique psychological experience, that im not sure is that attractive too many game players. You either like all these elements or you don't |
Louise Verger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 16:53:03 -
[532] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote: The Joe would get his plex from frank who is still buying them for isk, and if frank quits the game then john would do it, if enough people stopped buying plex to get IG isk, then joe would either need to start subbing his account, or let lapse. but at that point the game will probably be ACTUALLY dead or in its death throes since at that point ccp would be hemoraging money.
as for the second, what is special about eve is that it is one of the few "unrestricted" environments in gaming, and one of, if not the only, with full destruction pvp (and pve, although pve deaths are less common) so your actions actually matter. loosing a ship or destroying someone elses ship have an impact greater than "running back to your body"
yes some of the big alliances like to tout how "its already been replaced" that doesn't mean that the destruction didn't have an impact, it just means that they did the work of having a new ship ready to go before hand. which means that miners (either their own or others) had to go and sit in belts, manufacturers had to build the ships, t2 bp's had to be invented etc.
If pvp in the game changed, or the loss from pvp became less permanent, the entire eve economy would collapse. so yes permanent destruction pvp is the heart of eve its what keeps the entire system beating.
Yes, economy is what makes EVE special. In most of the other games everything is way too readily available and can not be destroyed. Usually developers deliberately remove every element that can bring competition into the game. They even go further removing social elements, which already have very little chance to develop without economy and open world PvP. In EVE most of the t1 stuff is also readily available, everyone can build. But eventually it all gets blown up and thus PvP plays a key role in the economy regulation preventing overproduction. There is something about PvP in EVE which is actually unique - victim is almost always helpless. With proper fit and being constantly alert players engaged in PvE have decent chances to escape but that is it. Moreover, most of the safety measures have huge opportunity costs, i.e. dying more frequently doesn't always mean making less profit. That makes attempts to force PvE players fight fruitless. So long this aspect of PvP remains intact gankers will constantly whine that it's to easy to avoid PvP and PvE players will whine that it's too easy for gankers to harass them.
|
Alexander Bor
Polaris Global
12
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 17:23:53 -
[533] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:EvE is Dying SoonGäó Edit: you want big numbers back? let the game go back to the true eve! NO casuals NO plex ONLY sub ONLY nerds and heavy farmer #SkillsRequired #NoCreditCardAllowed Edit2: the competition should be on how much you can do ingame, now how much plex you can buy with money
true |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1759
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 17:30:42 -
[534] - Quote
Rollback to 2012 |
Gillian Roibos
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 17:33:46 -
[535] - Quote
As a reference to the only other MMO that I played in my life, Ultima Online (that was even more of an addiction than EVE), I believe that few changes could make a big difference.
- Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.
- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.
- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.
Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions. |
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
143
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 17:56:21 -
[536] - Quote
Gillian Roibos wrote: - Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.
- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.
- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.
Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions.
Most of highsec is already relatively safe, and I believe griefing in the rookie systems is a bannable offence.
When I was a noob the looming danger was what kept me in the game and kept it interesting. It is what makes eve stand out - otherwise easier to play elite dangerous....ofc i dont as much because in elite dangerous there are no complex challenges to overcome that would ruin my game and reputation if I fail :) Or overwhelming satisfaction when I succeed! |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6267
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 17:58:17 -
[537] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,
Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.
So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.
The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game?
Who cares? No really, who cares? If that is how Bob wants to spend his time and money, who are you to butt in and start commenting. It is a voluntary transaction between Bob and CCP and Bob and Joe. Go mind your own business.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Alexander Bor
Polaris Global
13
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:00:30 -
[538] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".
Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it).
The problem being raised is really actual. The effect is not like we were waiting for.
Besides that players (both newcomers and old) don't take game in alpha state as normal - new players stop playing in 1-2 days, old players don't log after first try.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
*No *Not brings much *No *No *Maybe
I will be pleased to explain.
*Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time.
It will cause more chaos and amplify existing negative effects from alphas by thousand rates. I think slight increase in "numbers' don't worth it. Why slight? - because factors of players being attracted and remain (what is more important) are far beyond all this alpha sh*t.
*Limit Alphas to high-sec only.
Sov-holders and resident of low-secs are those who must care all the issues with pilots passing through.
*Move L4 agents
Very dangerous and must not be done. The reason is a current real problems in PVE branch of game. Otherwise lvl 5 must be added to high-secs.
Regarding Incursions. Don't we already have increased payouts for low-secs? I think that's enough. And also moving them to lows can drop the activity in this branch (that also not very healthy in the present state).
* Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas
I think current Insurance system is perfect as the result of it's evolution through the path of trials and mistakes so better not to touch it. At least there are more actual problems in EVE.
So... alpha-states is really not so easy phenomena as might appear at first sight. The idea is good. But it do should had been worked out more intensively before release. And of course alphas can't be the tool for increasing in numbers. So one should discuss alpha states in kind another view not touching numbers problem. |
Gillian Roibos
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:14:22 -
[539] - Quote
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Gillian Roibos wrote: - Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.
- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.
- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.
Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions.
Most of highsec is already relatively safe, and I believe griefing in the rookie systems is a bannable offence. When I was a noob the looming danger was what kept me in the game and kept it interesting. It is what makes eve stand out - otherwise easier to play elite dangerous....ofc i dont as much because in elite dangerous there are no complex challenges to overcome that would ruin my game and reputation if I fail :) Or overwhelming satisfaction when I succeed!
The problem is not about providing a safe environment per se (maybe a bit), but rather a confined environment without the frustration of seeing more seasoned player ratting in a Rattlesnake next to them. Leaving out the curiosity of those stories going on "out there"
|
Punctator
Shadow-Kill Aureus Alae
24
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:16:48 -
[540] - Quote
time to return game to the players.
1. CCP do what you do now about moons - it is VERY GOOD Let players have thair small kingdoms of dreams - destroy big empires builded by rmt lords, and moon changes is one of the right ways to do this.
2. cloaking should eat fuel. Harasment is not a gameplay style wich give you new players old and mighty players killing newbies - it sucks, so new players quit.
3. old, mighty players should pay more for gameplay, new should play less. We have now situation like this. Lords and very powerfull people control this game and not paying, noobs pays and beeing harased by old lords. Old and mighty should pay real money for ability to use next generation of ships beyound supers.
4. next generation of destruction needed - new ship clases - battle stars or somethink - ships where not only ingame industry, minerals, moon goo, Pi, but real money is needed to fly it, using plex to feed ship timer should not be allowed, only real credit card. This ships should be much more powerfull than supercapitals now and should be able kill several supercapitals on thair own and be very very deadly for even large amount of subcaps.
In old days... Titan was that kind of ship - everyone dream, powerfull, deadly legend, but now it is using in blobs like drakes - people should have a chance to feel power again, but not blob power, we have too much of it!
where is no dreams - there is no game. where is no game - there are no players.
|
|
An-Nur
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:25:10 -
[541] - Quote
Gillian Roibos wrote:Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:Gillian Roibos wrote: - Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.
- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.
- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.
Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions.
Most of highsec is already relatively safe, and I believe griefing in the rookie systems is a bannable offence. When I was a noob the looming danger was what kept me in the game and kept it interesting. It is what makes eve stand out - otherwise easier to play elite dangerous....ofc i dont as much because in elite dangerous there are no complex challenges to overcome that would ruin my game and reputation if I fail :) Or overwhelming satisfaction when I succeed! The problem is not about providing a safe environment per se (maybe a bit), but rather a confined environment without the frustration of seeing more seasoned player ratting in a Rattlesnake next to them. Leaving out the curiosity of those stories going on "out there"
All of this is already provided. Missions, storylines, special events, all from the relative safety of hi sec. Doesn't change the fact that for a lot of people EVE is a challenge they are either not willing to take on or find boring compared to other games they play.
This whole notion that more cotton wool is going to attract and keep more players is just utter bs. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6268
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:25:15 -
[542] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote: There is something about PvP in EVE which is actually unique - victim is almost always helpless. With proper fit and being constantly alert players engaged in PvE have decent chances to escape but that is it. Moreover, most of the safety measures have huge opportunity costs, i.e. dying more frequently doesn't always mean making less profit. That makes attempts to force PvE players fight fruitless. So long as this aspect of PvP remains intact gankers will constantly whine that it's to easy to avoid PvP and PvE players will whine that it's too easy for gankers to harass them.
I think this is incorrect. First, in PvP the victim is not always helpless. In some instances the victim will be helpless, but not all.
Second, PvP does not only happen between PvP and PvE players. PvP in EVE is everywhere if one looks at as competition. Even a lone venture in a belt mining is going to have an effect on other players, both directly (e.g. he sells his or to a players buy order) and indirectly. By selling his ore he has an effect, in a small way, on the in game economy. Multiply this by the number of players out there mining and you have a market process with competition. It isnGÇÖt GÇ£shoot them in the faceGÇ¥ competition, but it is there none-the-less. In this sense, most players are engaged in some sort of PvPGÇöi.e. competition with other players, have an impact on other players.
And safety measures come with opportunity costs, but that is true of everything. Opportunity cost is ever present. Do you tank your freighter or not? The decision, either one, has an opportunity cost with it. Do you mine, or mission, or camp gates? There is opportunity cost there too. However, these costs are not necessarily huge.
As for people whining about prey escaping or being the prey, welcome to New Eden. It is very much like an ecosystem with predators and prey, and you donGÇÖt always know when you are the predator or the prey. That is what makes this game interesting, IMO. That level of uncertainty is hard to find in most other games.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6268
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:27:03 -
[543] - Quote
Punctator wrote:
2. cloaking should eat fuel. Harasment is not a gameplay style wich give you new players old and mighty players killing newbies - it sucks, so new players quit.
No. Stop trying to nerf cloaks because you are bad. And there is a dedicated stickied post for this. So keep this crap out of this thread.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Punctator
Shadow-Kill Aureus Alae
24
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:29:36 -
[544] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Punctator wrote:
2. cloaking should eat fuel. Harasment is not a gameplay style wich give you new players old and mighty players killing newbies - it sucks, so new players quit.
No. Stop trying to nerf cloaks because you are bad. And there is a dedicated stickied post for this. So keep this crap out of this thread.
i am not - this kind of people can do notheing against me, but noobs hurts badly - it sucks. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6271
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:44:02 -
[545] - Quote
Gillian Roibos wrote: - Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.
This is not a good idea. EVE is a competitive MMO. That is when you play the game you are in competition with other players all the time. When I invent T2 modules I am in competition with other players buying the same inputs, and also making the same modules. Even though we never see each other, speak to each other, etc. we are, in a way, interacting. We also face risks as we move these materials around. Further, those risks are based on our choices. The ships we use, and where we do the inventing, building, etc.
But a safe area would allow players to effect the in game economy without any risks. Thus, this safe system should have virtually no rewards which is not going to be very satisfying to the players there. You want rewards, go out of that safe zone and face the risks associated with the decisions you make in trying to capture those rewards. Yes, you may lose your ship and even be podded, depending on the context. But that is the nature of the game. If you are clever and figure something out you get to reap the rewards. If you fail, well you learned something...that approach, tactic, etc. didn't work. Try something else. Eve is a game of trial-and-error and yes, new players are going to make more errors....because the older players have already made the same or similar errors and learned from them. Trying to circumvent this is, IMO, a mistake.
And to a large extent there are groups out there that will help new players. Brave, Pandemic Horde, Karmafleet, EVE Uni, are some of them. Even GoonWaffe will be very helpful to new players coming in from the Something Awful forums. Goons have an extensive wiki for new players to the game. And note...there are groups. Playing this game is better and easier in groups. Get into a good corporation/alliance is very important early on.
BTW, there is a similar thread on this here.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6271
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 18:46:40 -
[546] - Quote
Punctator wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Punctator wrote:
2. cloaking should eat fuel. Harasment is not a gameplay style wich give you new players old and mighty players killing newbies - it sucks, so new players quit.
No. Stop trying to nerf cloaks because you are bad. And there is a dedicated stickied post for this. So keep this crap out of this thread. i am not - this kind of people can do notheing against me, but noobs hurts badly - it sucks.
First, there is a dedicated thread for this...so please, take this stuff there. And here is some advice: when you want to nerf something, make sure you are not going to nerf those who hare not causing the problem.
And please...if you want to argue about AFK cloaking, this is the place.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Keno Skir
1408
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 19:02:15 -
[547] - Quote
Gillian Roibos wrote:As a reference to the only other MMO that I played in my life, Ultima Online (that was even more of an addiction than EVE), I believe that few changes could make a big difference.
- Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.
- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.
- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.
Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions.
So you want to limit the current alpha clone to a tiny few systems containing only other clueless newbros, and make them play a version of EvE that is literally nothing like the actual game? That's your idea?
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3254
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 19:56:28 -
[548] - Quote
Punctator wrote:time to return game to the players.
1. CCP do what you do now about moons - it is VERY GOOD Let players have thair small kingdoms of dreams - destroy big empires builded by rmt lords, and moon changes is one of the right ways to do this.
2. cloaking should eat fuel. Harasment is not a gameplay style wich give you new players old and mighty players killing newbies - it sucks, so new players quit.
3. old, mighty players should pay more for gameplay, new should play less. We have now situation like this. Lords and very powerfull people control this game and not paying, noobs pays and beeing harased by old lords. Old and mighty should pay real money for ability to use next generation of ships beyound supers.
4. next generation of destruction needed - new ship clases - battle stars or somethink - ships where not only ingame industry, minerals, moon goo, Pi, but real money is needed to fly it, using plex to feed ship timer should not be allowed, only real credit card. This ships should be much more powerfull than supercapitals now and should be able kill several supercapitals on thair own and be very very deadly for even large amount of subcaps.
In old days... Titan was that kind of ship - everyone dream, powerfull, deadly legend, but now it is using in blobs like drakes - people should have a chance to feel power again, but not blob power, we have too much of it!
where is no dreams - there is no game. where is no game - there are no players.
2- There is a sticky for cloaking discussion. Go discuss this there.
3- Please explain to me how old player pay less than new ones. I really want to see where you are coming from with this statement.
4- This is just a bad idea. |
Malphas Vynneve
Apple of Discord Pinnacle Federation
26
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 19:56:31 -
[549] - Quote
This is why CCP only uses the CSM for feedback. Because people want horrible ideas like fueled cloaking. |
Louise Verger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 20:47:39 -
[550] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Who cares? No really, who cares? If that is how Bob wants to spend his time and money, who are you to butt in and start commenting. It is a voluntary transaction between Bob and CCP and Bob and Joe. Go mind your own business.
Nice attempt to hide stupidity behind rudeness. You would be better off following your own advice instead of wasting your time pestering people on forums.
Quote:This is why CCP only uses the CSM for feedback. Because people want horrible ideas like fueled cloaking.
Anyone including devs and CSM can come up with horrible ideas and flatly refusing to listen to others is probably the worst one. Anyways, I don't think CCP ignore the majority. |
|
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1195
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 21:06:32 -
[551] - Quote
Luckily though, the majority don't support stupid ideas like cloak fuel...
This thread delivers!
#Tears #Butthurtcarebears #OscarsSoWhine
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 21:17:06 -
[552] - Quote
An-Nur wrote:Mistress Corvinus wrote:The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main. The skill point advantage is easily overcome with injectors. Its a silly argument. You'll overcome that and then complain vets have an unfair advantage in controlling null space. As has been pointed out ad nauseum sp dont mean all that much beyond a point. Skill and knowledge do. If alliances like Brave, Pandemic horde can thrive sp are obviously not much of an argument
"Pay hundreds of dollars to for all those years the game was open while you weren't subbed" is not going to be very inviting to most players. That's only a solution if you're not the kind of player who will throw hundreds of dollars at a game very early on. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6271
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 21:26:01 -
[553] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Who cares? No really, who cares? If that is how Bob wants to spend his time and money, who are you to butt in and start commenting. It is a voluntary transaction between Bob and CCP and Bob and Joe. Go mind your own business.
Nice attempt to hide stupidity behind rudeness. You would be better off following your own advice instead of wasting your time pestering people on forums.
There is no stupidity in my response. What you fail to grasp is that these transactions are all voluntary. CCP is not making Bob buy a PLEX. Nor is Bob making Joe buy it for ISK. Bob and Joe and CCP are all behaving in a voluntary manner. Each is getting something of value to them. All these transactions make CCP, Bob and Joe better off.
Further, this transaction also changes the distribution of ISK. Joe, who has sufficient ISK that he feels like buying a PLEX, transfers some of his ISK wealth to Joe. So PLEX provide a method of shifting ISK from those who have considerable amounts or large enough streams of ISK, to those who don't (for whatever reasons).
So again, why care about this transaction? Why is Joe having more game time bad? Why is Bob getting the ISK he wants bad? And if Bob doesn't buy the PLEX? The PLEX market in EVE is fairly thick. Currently EVE Central is telling me there are 791 PLEX for sale in game excluding the PLEX doe sale in Perimeter. I wouldnGÇÖt be surprised if including Perimeter weGÇÖd go well over 1,000. So Joe has plenty of options if Bob doesnGÇÖt buy one.
In fact, most of the market transactions in game are largely anonymous. I donGÇÖt know who I am buying from until after I buy it and often times I donGÇÖt even care. I donGÇÖt care who I bought stuff from, I donGÇÖt care what they do with the ISK they got from me, I donGÇÖt care where they got the stuff I bought. I donGÇÖt care if it is loot, they made it, or whatever. This is called anonymous exchange it is what allows there to be vast amounts of stuff in game (and RL).
Who is buying what from whomGǪ.? I really couldnGÇÖt care any less. Nor should you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
An-Nur
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 21:36:35 -
[554] - Quote
Kaybella Hakaari wrote:An-Nur wrote:Mistress Corvinus wrote:The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main. The skill point advantage is easily overcome with injectors. Its a silly argument. You'll overcome that and then complain vets have an unfair advantage in controlling null space. As has been pointed out ad nauseum sp dont mean all that much beyond a point. Skill and knowledge do. If alliances like Brave, Pandemic horde can thrive sp are obviously not much of an argument "Pay hundreds of dollars to for all those years the game was open while you weren't subbed" is not going to be very inviting to most players. That's only a solution if you're not the kind of player who will throw hundreds of dollars at a game very early on.
Throwing cash at injectors isn't the only way to get the isk. Underlying point is that skills don't make a good player, nor are a prerequisite for enjoyment nor involvement. And secondly even if skill training was overcome there would still be complaining about other supposed unfair advantages/barriers to entry by those so disposed |
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1059
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 21:52:09 -
[555] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:Luckily though, the majority don't support stupid ideas like cloak fuel...
This thread delivers!
#Tears #Butthurtcarebears #OscarsSoWhine
Cloaks are fuelled with tears - its a never ending supply. |
Louise Verger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 23:34:19 -
[556] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: There is no stupidity in my response. What you fail to grasp is that these transactions are all voluntary.
I did not say that they are not voluntary, where did you dig up that nonsense?
Quote:Further, this transaction also changes the distribution of ISK. Joe, who has sufficient ISK that he feels like buying a PLEX, transfers some of his ISK wealth to Joe. So PLEX provide a method of shifting ISK from those who have considerable amounts or large enough streams of ISK, to those who don't (for whatever reasons).
Please don't insult my intelligence with such explanations. I would expect a ten year old to understand such simple things.
Quote:So again, why care about this transaction?
Think. Hint: you write the answer in nearly every post.
Quote:Why is Joe having more game time bad? Why is Bob getting the ISK he wants bad? And if Bob doesn't buy the PLEX? The PLEX market in EVE is fairly thick. Currently EVE Central is telling me there are 791 PLEX for sale in game excluding the PLEX doe sale in Perimeter. I wouldnGÇÖt be surprised if including Perimeter weGÇÖd go well over 1,000. So Joe has plenty of options if Bob doesnGÇÖt buy one.
Again you put words in my mouth. I did not say that it is bad. Do you really think that I've never seen The Forge market and never bothered to check plex price and how many plexes are sold?
Quote:In fact, most of the market transactions in game are largely anonymous. I donGÇÖt know who I am buying from until after I buy it and often times I donGÇÖt even care. I donGÇÖt care who I bought stuff from, I donGÇÖt care what they do with the ISK they got from me, I donGÇÖt care where they got the stuff I bought. I donGÇÖt care if it is loot, they made it, or whatever. This is called anonymous exchange it is what allows there to be vast amounts of stuff in game (and RL). Who is buying what from whomGǪ.? I really couldnGÇÖt care any less. Nor should you.
I did not say that I care who is buying from whom. Stop putting words into my mouth. What is the point of conversation if you deliberately ignore me and answer your wild insinuations rather than my posts? There is also no need to repeat that you don't care.
The point is that dozenes of thousands of players buy plex with ISK and about the same number of players buy extra plex with $. If the latter for some reason become reluctant to pay it will have impact on the former. They will had to either pay with $ or leave the game, something that you keep denying. The plex market is thick but not as much as you are. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6271
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 00:23:45 -
[557] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote:
I did not say that I care who is buying from whom. Stop putting words into my mouth. What is the point of conversation if you deliberately ignore me and answer your wild insinuations rather than my posts? There is also no need to repeat that you don't care.
The point is that dozenes of thousands of players buy plex with ISK and about the same number of players buy extra plex with $. If the latter for some reason become reluctant to pay it will have impact on the former. They will had to either pay with $ or leave the game, something that you keep denying. The plex market is thick but not as much as you are.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 09:42:12 -
[558] - Quote
An-Nur wrote:Kaybella Hakaari wrote:An-Nur wrote:Mistress Corvinus wrote:The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main. The skill point advantage is easily overcome with injectors. Its a silly argument. You'll overcome that and then complain vets have an unfair advantage in controlling null space. As has been pointed out ad nauseum sp dont mean all that much beyond a point. Skill and knowledge do. If alliances like Brave, Pandemic horde can thrive sp are obviously not much of an argument "Pay hundreds of dollars to for all those years the game was open while you weren't subbed" is not going to be very inviting to most players. That's only a solution if you're not the kind of player who will throw hundreds of dollars at a game very early on. Throwing cash at injectors isn't the only way to get the isk. Underlying point is that skills don't make a good player, nor are a prerequisite for enjoyment nor involvement. And secondly even if skill training was overcome there would still be complaining about other supposed unfair advantages/barriers to entry by those so disposed This is true, but some people have a tickbox of stuff they won't tolerate in their games, like pay-to-cheat mechanics. They are worth $0 because they leave the instant the game tries to sell them a cheat. They won't even stick around to be content. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
35017
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 10:05:03 -
[559] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".
Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it). I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.
Rather than continuing to gimp the "Alpha experience" CCP should be looking for ways to incentivize players to subscribe and become Omegas. So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):
* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time. * Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space. * Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec. * Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec. * Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).
Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated. I like these suggestions.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1060
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 11:02:06 -
[560] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: I like these suggestions.
Problem is you can't force people into low sec - if they aren't going of their own accord now measures designed to push them towards it will result in most of them quitting the game. Moving L4s will just result in a lot of people who only log in to run those missions for the 1000th time in their in faction BS/marauder finding other games to play. |
|
Vigirr
313
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 11:25:44 -
[561] - Quote
Louise Verger wrote: There is something about PvP in EVE which is actually unique - victim is almost always helpless.
No, not at all. The reason people look at it this way is because they look at PVP (in EVE) the wrong way, they see a kill mail and go "see, stood no chance". Understanding EVE PVP comes from understanding the following: the kill itself is an end result of a chain of choices and (in)actions: a lot of stuff had to happen, or not happen.
The steps leading up to that kill is what really matters, where both sides need to take the correct steps while avoiding the incorrect ones. Things like location, ship, fit, intel, knowledge, effort, planning, timing and a zillion other variables before they ended up in that very specific situation where the target is indeed helpless, which thus results in a kill.
Dying in EVE is a choice (not counting out of game silliness like DCs or the likes). The kill mail is just tangible evidence of one side making the right choices while the other side made the wrong choices, nothing more. |
Salvos Rhoska
2556
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:17:44 -
[562] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Dying in EVE is a choice (not counting out of game silliness like DCs or the likes). The kill mail is just tangible evidence of one side making the right choices while the other side made the wrong choices, nothing more.
This.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
|
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
367
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:32:15 -
[563] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Louise Verger wrote: There is something about PvP in EVE which is actually unique - victim is almost always helpless.
No, not at all. The reason people look at it this way is because they look at PVP (in EVE) the wrong way, they see a kill mail and go "see, stood no chance". Understanding EVE PVP comes from understanding the following: the kill itself is an end result of a chain of choices and (in)actions: a lot of stuff had to happen, or not happen. The steps leading up to that kill is what really matters, where both sides need to take the correct steps while avoiding the incorrect ones. Things like location, ship, fit, intel, knowledge, effort, planning, timing and a zillion other variables before they ended up in that very specific situation where the target is indeed helpless, which thus results in a kill. Dying in EVE is a choice (not counting out of game silliness like DCs or the likes). The kill mail is just tangible evidence of one side making the right choices while the other side made the wrong choices, nothing more.
This, right here. the most common activities that often result in "ganks" and cause the most tears, are ones that I engage in regularly, HS mining, I watch local and watch d-scan and stay aligned, the second someone shows up on d-scan in a gank ship I hit warp. haven't lost a barge in years.
low-sec and wh shenanigans, same deal.
hauling with a freighter, I fly tanked and don't carry an inordinate amount of stuff in a single go, and have the known ganking systems on my avoidance list. Haven't lost a freighter in years.
HS mission and anom running, I don't fly a billion+ isk blinged out battleship, I spam d-scan and the second I see combat probes away I go.
LS and Null mission running, same deal only I also pvp fit, yes its a slight drop in my mission efficiency, but if I ever do get caught at least I'll be able to put up some semblance of a fight. last mission ship I lost was last night, but that was due to being stupidly sleep deprived and not paying enough attention. so 100% my fault, and sure the half billion hit hurt my pocket book a little, but it was replaced and the mission was finished within 15 minutes. (at which point I promptly went to sleep because I was obviously too far gone to keep flying)
if you loose a ship, its because of the choices you made or didn't make, just like in real life, you have zero control over the actions of others, and so the only person you are responsible for, and who is responsible for your success or failure. is you. |
Salvos Rhoska
2556
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:36:16 -
[564] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:if you loose a ship, its because of the choices you made or didn't make, just like in real life, you have zero control over the actions of others, and so the only person you are responsible for, and who is responsible for your success or failure. is you.
This.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6273
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 18:18:29 -
[565] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Louise Verger wrote: There is something about PvP in EVE which is actually unique - victim is almost always helpless.
No, not at all. The reason people look at it this way is because they look at PVP (in EVE) the wrong way, they see a kill mail and go "see, stood no chance". Understanding EVE PVP comes from understanding the following: the kill itself is an end result of a chain of choices and (in)actions: a lot of stuff had to happen, or not happen. The steps leading up to that kill is what really matters, where both sides need to take the correct steps while avoiding the incorrect ones. Things like location, ship, fit, intel, knowledge, effort, planning, timing and a zillion other variables before they ended up in that very specific situation where the target is indeed helpless, which thus results in a kill. Dying in EVE is a choice (not counting out of game silliness like DCs or the likes). The kill mail is just tangible evidence of one side making the right choices while the other side made the wrong choices, nothing more.
Correct. It is like a game in game theory. At each point choices are made, players are making what they may think are the best choices at the time, but uncertainty about the other players moves mean the outcome is in flux until the kill mail is produced.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
35017
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 18:27:40 -
[566] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Rain6637 wrote: I like these suggestions.
Problem is you can't force people into low sec - if they aren't going of their own accord now measures designed to push them towards it will result in most of them quitting the game. Moving L4s will just result in a lot of people who only log in to run those missions for the 1000th time in their in faction BS/marauder finding other games to play. Highsec ISK is what kept me there for so long actually. Moving out of starting areas is a standard MMO convention.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1061
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:20:52 -
[567] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Rroff wrote:Rain6637 wrote: I like these suggestions.
Problem is you can't force people into low sec - if they aren't going of their own accord now measures designed to push them towards it will result in most of them quitting the game. Moving L4s will just result in a lot of people who only log in to run those missions for the 1000th time in their in faction BS/marauder finding other games to play. Highsec ISK is what kept me there for so long actually. Moving out of starting areas is a standard MMO convention.
Trite - but the reality is you can't just force that on people - they will quit, in droves.
Also Eve isn't your standard MMO and there isn't a defined starting area as such other than vaguely the starter systems. |
Terminal Insanity
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
1011
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:42:02 -
[568] - Quote
has anyone considered a "pre-sear" (guildwars) type of area? Where new players are created, and can live up until a certain SP threshold? At any time they can cross through the new eden wormhole and join the main server.
This would separate the newbies from the older players, giving them a more balanced gameplay feel. Obviously there would need to be lots of item/activity restrictions to protect the market from the "sharded" server.
Rookie events: while a new player is traveling, npc ship could send a distress signal to all newbies in the area asking for backup. Is it a trap!? can you blow up the stranded npc's ship and loot him? do you save him instead?!
New Player Experience shouldn't just be about missions. maybe there needs to be tournaments for new players only. brackets based on SP 0-5m, 5-15m, 15-30, 30+
Why not have NPCs fly to the new player and offer them missions, and follow them like a wingman. If you don't arrive at the gate with him, he gives you better instructions. He will instruct you each step of the way.
"We need to take this cargo to station is XXX. We are a few stars away from there, so we need to set our ship's autopilot destination to make travel easier, rightclick and set destination. Follow me to the gate which should now be highlighted in yellow"
Right now, new players feel dumped into the madness. And for some this is awesome, for many, they are lost.
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28078
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:42:22 -
[569] - Quote
Rroff wrote:PPS you haven't moved out of the "starter" bit of the game until you've lived in wormholes for awhile. Local is scary after living in wormholes.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1061
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:59:09 -
[570] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Rroff wrote:PPS you haven't moved out of the "starter" bit of the game until you've lived in wormholes for awhile. Local is scary after living in wormholes.
The dscan jitters are the worst. |
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1061
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 22:00:54 -
[571] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:has anyone considered a "pre-sear" (guildwars) type of area? Where new players are created, and can live up until a certain SP threshold? At any time they can cross through the new eden wormhole and join the main server.
That kind of idea has been floated a few times but generally isn't popular. IMO it would be better to equip new players with the tools to better understand what they are facing (easier said than done) than wall them off.
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
35018
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 07:32:42 -
[572] - Quote
Rroff wrote:
PPS you haven't moved out of the "starter" bit of the game until you've lived in wormholes for awhile.
Agreed on the wormholes thing. I wasn't just being trite though. The goal is to entice players to find gameplay elsewhere. More rewarding or interesting. Somehow better. If there's nothing to leave high sec for then yeah they'll quit, and that's the basic problem.
In other games players leave starting systems for advancement, better items, more XP. EVE has those things like ISK rewards and the SP it can buy now.
In my opinion the biggest problem is still the gameplay interaction per minute aspect of EVE. While you might run through a forest in other MMOs and run into critters that reward you with money, XP, and item drops, EVE's pace is molasses.
This is a new one for me, but I would try removing the wait of lock times and finding another way to balance ships. It seems kind of redundant anyway, now that I think about it. Damage is calculated based on sigs and resolutions anyway.
A lot of popular games reward players for quick reactions. I think it's worth exploring parries. It would require very recognizable attack animations, and with server ticks operating at 1 hz it's a pretty good window to give players for a blocking move. Increased resistance to one damage type, for example. If you get the parry activated on the same server tick as the attacker's volley, you reduce incoming dps.
You could make it double blind to save server load and avoid a 4 second delay. Say the defender gets the rhythm of the attacker's guns and is able to activate the parry just before the damage notifications. Attacker has the option of delaying a volley to get through the parry. Make the parry duration 1 tick, keep it finnicky.
In fleet fights you'd still get murdered and that seems appropriate. Unless you could parry a whole fleet's alpha which would be sick too.
EVE's movement is also very uncomfortable. WASD movement is in the game and I think it needs to become a viable ship control method. It's not as strong a reason as the previous ideas, but it's a familiar control scheme for visiting gamers. It also lets the player make meaningful inputs to help address the interaction-per-minute problem.
Awareness is very weak. There is a lot of information already being sent to the client that isn't represented in a recognizable way. Weapon type is one. If your client didn't know what weapon type was on someone else's ship, you wouldn't be able to see the appropriate weapon models with "look at." The weapon type info should be fed to your overview in a column or something.
Lastly is the HUD. A spaceship game should have a sick HUD instead of data tables. EVE needs a meaningful graphical display. Elite does it, SC does it. Flat icons in orthographic view is the exact opposite. Square, opaque icons rolling around the screen like a snow globe is just frantic and confusing.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
35018
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 07:49:41 -
[573] - Quote
I could list some more examples of meaningful information. In addition to distance and speed, calculate a closing time prediction. So between you and an object, the client tells you how long until you will reach each other.
In conjunction with this, let players set a custom radius for this calculation. You could set it to 15 km or such to cover most scrams, whether it's yours or the enemy's. You could also switch it to something longer like 35 km based on the enemy's weapon system to tell you when you'll be in range.
There should also be an indicator in your client matching any graphical effects you would see on the enemy's ship. You can see whether a ship has activated hardeners or a shield booster without even being locked. That should be fed to you if you want to see it.
In other games you have this benefit because you aren't zoomed out 50 km or whatever. It's information for the player to make meaningful decisions. Graphic effects are pretty but you simply miss out on the information. If you can see an effect, you should receive the info directly, and without a lock.
Microwarp drive or afterburner activation is another one.
Drones released by an attacker could also result in small dots around their target lock icon so you can easily select and target them.
Static target lock icons could be replaced with 3d wireframe models that move within the target lock icon area. Your client has that ship's velocity information and while historically players have asked for a picture-in-picture type of view (which is very technically demanding), a 3d wireframe would probably be much easier. Have it do exactly what the targeted ship is doing in terms of heading. So if you spin your viewport, the 3d model will turn and do its thing relative to the viewport. This assumes you are aware what your ship is doing.
Come to think of it, you could get one for your own ship too. Right above the capacitor or something.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Danko1978
Ghost Nebula 237 Corporation Bloodline.
5
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 22:19:38 -
[574] - Quote
Rroff wrote:
On a related note when alphas went live I along with some other veteran players who like myself had been away from the game for a long time found our ships had been moved back to one of the starter stations and we spent quite a bit of time in local chat trying to help newer players but one thing that really stuck out and was commented on by a few was the lack of ways to really engage with a new player in the game (other than ganking them) i.e. there was no easy way to fleet up and start a mission arc or something that offered something to both the new player and a way for the veteran player to get involved.
This is completely true of all the things people have wrote in this discussion, this one of the things CCP should pay attention and work into. |
Soleiyu
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 12:27:12 -
[575] - Quote
I looked at eve offline and saw the PCU is below average even though the game is now kinda F2P, which is not what CCP wanted to see (and the fact alphas last about 2 seconds against us bittervets), and cements that EvE really is, infact, dying.
My worthless opinion is that the game needs to get back to it's more hardcore roots, it needs to provide easily available pvp, alliances need to be removed, any methods of clumping huge numbers of players together needs to go but getting into small groups needs to be fluid and easy. Gates need to be changed so that they land you randomly within a few AU of the gate, not a few KM. Level 4 missions...missions in general, just remove the lot and replace them with 'epic arc' type missions, PvE that supports PvP baseline game play without grind or the point to even grind. Make it so if someone is logged in, the chances of them interacting with players meaningfully is high.
A player locked into a PvE grind might as well not exist. Players huddled up into NAPs might as well not exist. Gatecampers might as well not exist.
Everyone vs Everyone, log in, undock, boom!
Right now I cba to even log in, the PCU might suggest a few 10ks of players are online, but most of them, might as well not exist. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
80
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 12:37:15 -
[576] - Quote
Soleiyu wrote:I looked at eve offline and saw the PCU is below average even though the game is now kinda F2P, which is not what CCP wanted to see (and the fact alphas last about 2 seconds against us bittervets), and cements that EvE really is, infact, dying.
My worthless opinion is that the game needs to get back to it's more hardcore roots, it needs to provide easily available pvp, alliances need to be removed, any methods of clumping huge numbers of players together needs to go but getting into small groups needs to be fluid and easy. Gates need to be changed so that they land you randomly within a few AU of the gate, not a few KM. Level 4 missions...missions in general, just remove the lot and replace them with 'epic arc' type missions, PvE that supports PvP baseline game play without grind or the point to even grind. Make it so if someone is logged in, the chances of them interacting with players meaningfully is high.
A player locked into a PvE grind might as well not exist. Players huddled up into NAPs might as well not exist. Gatecampers might as well not exist.
Everyone vs Everyone, log in, undock, boom!
Right now I cba to even log in, the PCU might suggest a few 10ks of players are online, but most of them, might as well not exist.
The high PCU for March this year was around 44K. Last year the high for March was around 38K.
That's about a 16% increase from last year.
Keep in mind the record is only 65K... so a 6,000 PCU increase is a pretty sizeable increase.... especially for a game nearly 15 years old. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6286
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 17:29:09 -
[577] - Quote
Soleiyu wrote:I looked at eve offline and saw the PCU is below average even though the game is now kinda F2P, which is not what CCP wanted to see (and the fact alphas last about 2 seconds against us bittervets), and cements that EvE really is, infact, dying.
My worthless opinion is that the game needs to get back to it's more hardcore roots, it needs to provide easily available pvp, alliances need to be removed, any methods of clumping huge numbers of players together needs to go but getting into small groups needs to be fluid and easy. Gates need to be changed so that they land you randomly within a few AU of the gate, not a few KM. Level 4 missions...missions in general, just remove the lot and replace them with 'epic arc' type missions, PvE that supports PvP baseline game play without grind or the point to even grind. Make it so if someone is logged in, the chances of them interacting with players meaningfully is high.
A player locked into a PvE grind might as well not exist. Players huddled up into NAPs might as well not exist. Gatecampers might as well not exist.
Everyone vs Everyone, log in, undock, boom!
Right now I cba to even log in, the PCU might suggest a few 10ks of players are online, but most of them, might as well not exist.
Yes on the return to the roots concept, but removing alliances will not stop players from "clumping" together. People tend to do that for a variety of reasons. Safety in numbers, ease of accomplishing certain goals (if you help me, I'll help you), social reasons, etc.. For example, coalitions. The mechanics for that are very thin relative to those for alliances and corporations. OTEC was another example of players "clumping" together.
Also, you can't force player interactions via a top down approach, IMO. If you try this you'll turn off lots of players. IMO, players should be allowed to interact however they end up interacting. I'm not saying there should not be non-consensual PvP, but that trying to impose it via a top down approach from CCP will likely be detrimental. Right now players decide how they want to interact with others. Some prefer to avoid PvP (in the narrow sense--i.e. shooting each other) and that is totally fine...so long as they realize and accept that others might try and engage in PvP with them. This allows for a much more forms of interaction. Players log in and just as often as they shoot each other in the face they help each other out....often without even knowing about it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Radamant Nemess
Sudden-Impact
52
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 17:29:15 -
[578] - Quote
Cut the training time in half. It is super slow and tedious as it is. And this is what always bothered me the most about EVE - abysmal skill training times. This game mechanic was intended to prolong the time spent in game, so that more money could be generated through subs. Totally opposite to positive player experience.
i can fail at any speed you like
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6286
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 17:32:46 -
[579] - Quote
Radamant Nemess wrote:Cut the training time in half. It is super slow and tedious as it is. And this is what always bothered me the most about EVE - abysmal skill training times. This game mechanic was intended to prolong the time spent in game, so that more money could be generated through subs. Totally opposite to positive player experience.
Or it could be for balance reasons.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
325
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 17:55:17 -
[580] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Soleiyu wrote:I looked at eve offline and saw the PCU is below average even though the game is now kinda F2P, which is not what CCP wanted to see (and the fact alphas last about 2 seconds against us bittervets), and cements that EvE really is, infact, dying.
My worthless opinion is that the game needs to get back to it's more hardcore roots, it needs to provide easily available pvp, alliances need to be removed, any methods of clumping huge numbers of players together needs to go but getting into small groups needs to be fluid and easy. Gates need to be changed so that they land you randomly within a few AU of the gate, not a few KM. Level 4 missions...missions in general, just remove the lot and replace them with 'epic arc' type missions, PvE that supports PvP baseline game play without grind or the point to even grind. Make it so if someone is logged in, the chances of them interacting with players meaningfully is high.
A player locked into a PvE grind might as well not exist. Players huddled up into NAPs might as well not exist. Gatecampers might as well not exist.
Everyone vs Everyone, log in, undock, boom!
Right now I cba to even log in, the PCU might suggest a few 10ks of players are online, but most of them, might as well not exist. The high PCU for March this year was around 44K. Last year the high for March was around 38K. That's about a 16% increase from last year. Keep in mind the record is only 65K... so a 6,000 PCU increase is a pretty sizeable increase.... especially for a game nearly 15 years old.
Yea it's not about the highs, especially with all the alpha accounts around, I came back last year after taking a break in 2012 and the average logged player numbers are about halved of what they were then. You can see this even more logged in where once thriving areas feel empty and quiet. Even the help you used to get in game is gone, replaced by a website and longer wait time. The company shrunk it's employee pool as well and finally introduced a ftp in demo mode. If you are seeing some sort of a Renaissance you are not being realistic. Game wont drop of a cliff or anything, well unless Star Citizen finally comes out, but even with 10k players it will likely function and follow the same path it has since the beginning, |
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
80
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 19:07:56 -
[581] - Quote
Jax Bederen wrote:Scialt wrote:Soleiyu wrote:I looked at eve offline and saw the PCU is below average even though the game is now kinda F2P, which is not what CCP wanted to see (and the fact alphas last about 2 seconds against us bittervets), and cements that EvE really is, infact, dying.
My worthless opinion is that the game needs to get back to it's more hardcore roots, it needs to provide easily available pvp, alliances need to be removed, any methods of clumping huge numbers of players together needs to go but getting into small groups needs to be fluid and easy. Gates need to be changed so that they land you randomly within a few AU of the gate, not a few KM. Level 4 missions...missions in general, just remove the lot and replace them with 'epic arc' type missions, PvE that supports PvP baseline game play without grind or the point to even grind. Make it so if someone is logged in, the chances of them interacting with players meaningfully is high.
A player locked into a PvE grind might as well not exist. Players huddled up into NAPs might as well not exist. Gatecampers might as well not exist.
Everyone vs Everyone, log in, undock, boom!
Right now I cba to even log in, the PCU might suggest a few 10ks of players are online, but most of them, might as well not exist. The high PCU for March this year was around 44K. Last year the high for March was around 38K. That's about a 16% increase from last year. Keep in mind the record is only 65K... so a 6,000 PCU increase is a pretty sizeable increase.... especially for a game nearly 15 years old. Yea it's not about the highs, especially with all the alpha accounts around, I came back last year after taking a break in 2012 and the average logged player numbers are about halved of what they were then. You can see this even more logged in where once thriving areas feel empty and quiet. Even the help you used to get in game is gone, replaced by a website and longer wait time. The company shrunk it's employee pool as well and finally introduced a ftp in demo mode. If you are seeing some sort of a Renaissance you are not being realistic. Game wont drop of a cliff or anything, well unless Star Citizen finally comes out, but even with 10k players it will likely function and follow the same path it has since the beginning,
Well, the PCU average for March of 2017 was 26K. 22K in March of 2016. A 4K increase. 35K was the average in 2013 (around the PCU peak)
Eve had been 9,000 off the average an effectively halved that. I don't think that's a horrible result for adding Alphas to eve (given that we're now about 4.5 months into the Alpha experiment... many of the "hello-goodbye" folks have already left.)
2012 was close to the peak of Eve's numbers. 2009 to the end of 2013 was when things were "booming" (in eve terms... the game has never been truly huge). It looks like Eve has leveled off what was a preciptious descent in late 2015 and 2016 and climbed back to numbers we had in late 2014/early 2015. We'll see if we stay there or slowly bleed back to the 2016 numbers. |
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
325
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 20:17:13 -
[582] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Jax Bederen wrote:Scialt wrote:Soleiyu wrote:I looked at eve offline and saw the PCU is below average even though the game is now kinda F2P, which is not what CCP wanted to see (and the fact alphas last about 2 seconds against us bittervets), and cements that EvE really is, infact, dying.
My worthless opinion is that the game needs to get back to it's more hardcore roots, it needs to provide easily available pvp, alliances need to be removed, any methods of clumping huge numbers of players together needs to go but getting into small groups needs to be fluid and easy. Gates need to be changed so that they land you randomly within a few AU of the gate, not a few KM. Level 4 missions...missions in general, just remove the lot and replace them with 'epic arc' type missions, PvE that supports PvP baseline game play without grind or the point to even grind. Make it so if someone is logged in, the chances of them interacting with players meaningfully is high.
A player locked into a PvE grind might as well not exist. Players huddled up into NAPs might as well not exist. Gatecampers might as well not exist.
Everyone vs Everyone, log in, undock, boom!
Right now I cba to even log in, the PCU might suggest a few 10ks of players are online, but most of them, might as well not exist. The high PCU for March this year was around 44K. Last year the high for March was around 38K. That's about a 16% increase from last year. Keep in mind the record is only 65K... so a 6,000 PCU increase is a pretty sizeable increase.... especially for a game nearly 15 years old. Yea it's not about the highs, especially with all the alpha accounts around, I came back last year after taking a break in 2012 and the average logged player numbers are about halved of what they were then. You can see this even more logged in where once thriving areas feel empty and quiet. Even the help you used to get in game is gone, replaced by a website and longer wait time. The company shrunk it's employee pool as well and finally introduced a ftp in demo mode. If you are seeing some sort of a Renaissance you are not being realistic. Game wont drop of a cliff or anything, well unless Star Citizen finally comes out, but even with 10k players it will likely function and follow the same path it has since the beginning, Well, the PCU average for March of 2017 was 26K. 22K in March of 2016. A 4K increase. 35K was the average in 2013 (around the PCU peak) Eve had been 9,000 off the average an effectively halved that. I don't think that's a horrible result for adding Alphas to eve (given that we're now about 4.5 months into the Alpha experiment... many of the "hello-goodbye" folks have already left.) 2012 was close to the peak of Eve's numbers. 2009 to the end of 2013 was when things were "booming" (in eve terms... the game has never been truly huge). It looks like Eve has leveled off what was a preciptious descent in late 2015 and 2016 and climbed back to numbers we had in late 2014/early 2015. We'll see if we stay there or slowly bleed back to the 2016 numbers.
In 2012 it was mostly around 50k when logging, though nice rose filtered sunglasses there , ignoring everything else I noted, but good for you, nothing wrong with some optimism. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
80
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 20:44:56 -
[583] - Quote
Jax Bederen wrote:
In 2012 it was mostly around 50k when logging, though nice rose filtered sunglasses there , ignoring everything else I noted, but good for you, nothing wrong with some optimism.
The difference is I stopped playing around 2009. Right now it doesn't feel all that much different than I remember... but I missed the entire peak. My prior experience was from around the time of the dissolution of BOB.
All I'm doing is pointing out the stats that others referenced. When I log in it usually starts at around 35K and drops to 25K as I play into the US EST night. Add about 10-15K to those numbers on the weekend.
I'm not really looking at it optimistically... I'm just looking at objective data (as opposed to memories of what the levels were).
The numbers suggest a small but meaningful recovery. It's not back at 2012... and it will probably never get back to that point. But it is an improvement from the year before Alpha's got introduced (at least in terms of population). Are they subbing and giving CCP money? No idea. But even after 4-5 months they seem to still be logging in.
|
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
104
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 22:31:07 -
[584] - Quote
It seems waaaay too early to declare alphas a success or failure. The initial surge may be over, but the idea behind alphas and NPE is to encourage a larger percentage of people who try the game to stick with it beyond the initial hurdles. If they can move those retention numbers from 10% to 15% (arbitrary numbers), then it's a win. Over the long term, that would begin to grow the player base again. But you're not going to see evidence of a subtle shift in retention numbers by looking at the daily login numbers after the first few months of the effort. Even CCP doesn't know if it's worked or not yet.
Think about how gradual the early increases and subsequent declines have been. It's completely unreasonable to think the reversal of that trend would be any less gradual. There's absolutely no way you'd be able to make judgements in any timeframe short of a year.
This reeks of Henny-Penny-the-sky-is-falling hysteria. Calm down miner. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6287
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 22:43:01 -
[585] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Calm down miner.
Uh-oh...somebody is being assimilated....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
104
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 00:39:29 -
[586] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Zarek Kree wrote:Calm down miner. Uh-oh...somebody is being assimilated....
Ha...I like to think there's a little James 315 in all of us. |
Kirie Kumamato
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 07:34:37 -
[587] - Quote
Does anyone know if someone's scraped data for how many alphas represent returning players vs. new players? My assumption is that the vast majority of the alpha surge was made of players who once played EVE and couldn't commit enough time for it to be worth the subscription, rather than new players interested in the F2P access. These alphas won't convert to omega accounts unless they're suddenly able to devote that time, and that's not something CCP or anything in-game can control. It wouldn't matter how difficult EVE is to learn or how long it takes to get to the "good stuff," most alphas just want to come back to a world and community they enjoy.
Even if alphas don't translate to omega subscriptions, I'd argue that the extra content these returning players provide outweighs any downsides of the F2P model. Sure, they don't add to CCP's funds and can't compete on an equal level with omegas, but they can still contribute to the in-game economy, (try to) gank, fight small gang brawls, fill the ranks of alliances, and drop an opinion or two in the forums. Returning to roots would be a warm salute to a devoted fanbase; opening the gates to less enthusiastic fans is a wise move for a 15 year old game which, by all accounts, should be long dead. EVE will fade in time, and alphas should keep it going for a bit longer.
Now, if the alpha surge was dominated by new players, that would be really interesting... |
Rosie Hazelcrush
Fat Kitty Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 16:33:16 -
[588] - Quote
Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts. same here, ingame since 2009.
seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status.
in this regard, refineries is a much needed and far too late coming patch. should have happened earlier. may i add another killer change to it: make BPOs decay over time.
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1076
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 16:58:23 -
[589] - Quote
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote: same here, ingame since 2009.
seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status.
in this regard, refineries is a much needed and far too late coming patch. should have happened earlier. may i add another killer change to it: make BPOs decay over time.
addendum: why not introduce cycles/intervals to the game. every x years a reset happens. adjust skill training time/skill and bpo costs/etc accordingly. allow dual-char training on one account by default. it would focus the game onto what it really is, a fierce competetion, who can reach, settle and hold the outer edge of space first, starting from zero.
This won't work - most people become attached to what they have built, Eve already has pulled in the larger part of people who are interested in this type of game. Many many people will instantly quit, the tiny number of people the change will make the game appealing to, who were previously put off by trying to break into an established game environment, won't even cover a fraction of the loss from the player base. Some might trickle back in when enough time has past they feel like starting over but most won't.
The premise isn't without some merit though as the world has moved on a long way since the early days of the game - some areas could be tweaked to offset legacy domination, etc. |
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
109
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 17:02:35 -
[590] - Quote
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts. same here, ingame since 2009. seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. in this regard, refineries is a much needed and far too late coming patch. should have happened earlier. may i add another killer change to it: make BPOs decay over time.
Well, that certainly sounds refreshing and special for you players that have been been in the game for 10 years and are now wandering the galaxy trying to figure out what to do with your lives, but what about people like me? I'm about a year in and am just getting to the point where I can do interesting stuff for the first time. I really enjoy the game, but there's no way I'm starting over.
If you want to be reset to zero, then start a new character. Nobody is stopping you. Better yet, go play a new game and make way for the new breed coming up. But blowing up the entire server because a few bittervets are bored is a breathtakingly stupid idea. My apologies for being offensive, but I don't know how else to say it. |
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6291
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 19:05:53 -
[591] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts. same here, ingame since 2009. seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. in this regard, refineries is a much needed and far too late coming patch. should have happened earlier. may i add another killer change to it: make BPOs decay over time. Well, that certainly sounds refreshing and special for you players that have been in the game for 10 years and are now wandering the galaxy trying to figure out what to do with your lives, but what about people like me? I'm about a year in and am just getting to the point where I can do interesting stuff for the first time. I really enjoy the game, but there's no way I'm starting over. If you want to be reset to zero, then start a new character. Nobody is stopping you. Better yet, go play a new game and make way for the new breed coming up. But blowing up the entire server because a few bittervets are bored is a breathtakingly stupid idea. My apologies for being offensive, but I don't know how else to say it.
Funny that right? They can literally give their ISK away, biomass their current character, etc. and create a new character and get what they want...but they don't do it. That tells me they really don't want to do it unless it is also forced on everyone else. It is that latter condition that makes the whole thing ridiculous. It would drag a bunch of people into their idea of what is good whether they want it or not.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Vanessa Celtis
Vanessa Atalanta
12
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 20:13:52 -
[592] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts. same here, ingame since 2009. seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. in this regard, refineries is a much needed and far too late coming patch. should have happened earlier. may i add another killer change to it: make BPOs decay over time. Well, that certainly sounds refreshing and special for you players that have been in the game for 10 years and are now wandering the galaxy trying to figure out what to do with your lives, but what about people like me? I'm about a year in and am just getting to the point where I can do interesting stuff for the first time. I really enjoy the game, but there's no way I'm starting over. If you want to be reset to zero, then start a new character. Nobody is stopping you. Better yet, go play a new game and make way for the new breed coming up. But blowing up the entire server because a few bittervets are bored is a breathtakingly stupid idea. My apologies for being offensive, but I don't know how else to say it.
Fully agree, the persistence is a key element of the game and resetting the whole thing is absurd. However I am in favor of a galaxy expansion with some new mechanics. |
whatamidoinghere
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 20:56:02 -
[593] - Quote
Maybe if the game wasn't incredibly boring. I mean having to put effort into a game that I hope to get entertainment value out of isn't fun. I'd rather the content come to me, be spoonfed, and then gradually allow me to venture off on my own and do my thing after I have learned enough to be confident. I need to be trained to be an EVE player.
The biggest problem EVE has is that nerds suck at explaining things because they don't understand people don't think like them. |
Nemelle
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 20:57:07 -
[594] - Quote
Unlike conventional game developers, CCP's role is not to create additional content, but to incentivise corporations to utilize new players and incorporate them into their null-sec empire.
These structural issues are hurdles that prevent null-sec corps from taking in new players:
- Null-sec belongs to player corps and alliances, and allowing strangers into sovereign territory carry major risks - without giving these corps incentives to take in people and putting them to work for the benefit of the corps (that offsets the risks), people will be turned away or shot (mostly the latter)
- Null-sec has limited activities suitable for new players, and the burden is again placed on corps to give them reasons to stay. Being a corp officer in null-sec is hard work, and having to manage all the new players would be space-nanny simulation. Again, there needs to be incentives that make corp and corp officers want to take in new people
- Null-sec economy is still tied to high-sec trade hubs, and players naturally gravitate toward Jita or Amarr. Secondary markets need to have reasons to open up in deep null-sec. Again, why should corps invest time and energy to make this happen?
The core issue is that CCP needs let go (instead of double down on hand-holding) and focus on creating tools for corporations
- Allow corps to better manage players amongst its ranks - color coding new players as a separate group to prevent them access to essential functions. For example, new players would be red to sensitive systems and would be shot on sight
- Open new low level pirate / elite faction agents in null-sec that give good reward - player corps would levy taxes from new players running these missions
Improve interfaces and game mechanics that give new players a role in the running of low-level corporate functions
In essence, EVE is libertarian dream in space (should the government directly create jobs, or should the government create an environment where private entities step in to create jobs?). Many players come here to create their own stories, but CCP's focus on high-sec PVE is essentially reading a story to the players rather than allowing them to write their own. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6291
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 21:47:46 -
[595] - Quote
Nemelle wrote:Unlike conventional game developers, CCP's role is not to create additional content, but to incentivise corporations to utilize new players and incorporate them into their null-sec empire. These structural issues are hurdles that prevent null-sec corps from taking in new players:
- Null-sec belongs to player corps and alliances, and allowing strangers into sovereign territory carry major risks - without giving these corps incentives to take in people and putting them to work for the benefit of the corps (that offsets the risks), people will be turned away or shot (mostly the latter)
- Null-sec has limited activities suitable for new players, and the burden is again placed on corps to give them reasons to stay. Being a corp officer in null-sec is hard work, and having to manage all the new players would be space-nanny simulation. Again, there needs to be incentives that make corp and corp officers want to take in new people
- Null-sec economy is still tied to high-sec trade hubs, and players naturally gravitate toward Jita or Amarr. Secondary markets need to have reasons to open up in deep null-sec. Again, why should corps invest time and energy to make this happen?
The core issue is that CCP needs let go (instead of double down on hand-holding) and focus on creating tools for corporations
- Allow corps to better manage players amongst its ranks - color coding new players as a separate group to prevent them access to essential functions. For example, new players would be red to sensitive systems and would be shot on sight
- Open new low level pirate / elite faction agents in null-sec that give good reward - player corps would levy taxes from new players running these missions
- Corporations should *want* to secure a space in null-sec and attract large number of players to join and run faction agent missions within their domain (level 1 to 4) - the corporations would rise in faction standing and be rewarded with unique BPOs. This gives corporations and alliances more reasons to invade and conquer null-sec space, not just to rat, but to allow their army of new players run missions under their protection to generate corporate cashflow - corp leaders are not supposed to be the best people to grind, they are the ones who can get more people to grind for them
- Improve interfaces and game mechanics that give new players a role in the running of low-level corporate functions
In essence, EVE is libertarian dream in space (should the government directly create jobs, or should the government create an environment where private entities step in to create jobs?). Many players come here to create their own stories, but CCP's focus on high-sec PVE is essentially reading a story to the players rather than allowing them to write their own.
What you are describing Goons already do. Yes, you are basically outlining something New Eden's Bad GuysGäó do. Goonwaffe takes in new players form the Something Awful forums, Karmafleet takes in new players in general. Goons have a very thick (for NS) market, they have lots of information and advice on how new players can not only live in NS, but thrive (for example, run anomalies in groups when you are new yes, the pay off sucks compared to a 4 year player running a anomaly in a carrier....but it is way, way better than other new player options for income while solo).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
645
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 22:06:01 -
[596] - Quote
whatamidoinghere wrote:Maybe if the game wasn't incredibly boring. I mean having to put effort into a game that I hope to get entertainment value out of isn't fun. I'd rather the content come to me, be spoonfed, and then gradually allow me to venture off on my own and do my thing after I have learned enough to be confident. I need to be trained to be an EVE player.
The biggest problem EVE has is that nerds suck at explaining things because they don't understand people don't think like them.
Bye!
|
Kirie Kumamato
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 23:14:37 -
[597] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Nemelle wrote:Unlike conventional game developers, CCP's role is not to create additional content, but to incentivise corporations to utilize new players and incorporate them into their null-sec empire.
These structural issues ... [for brevity] ... allowing them to write their own. What you are describing Goons already do. Yes, you are basically outlining something New Eden's Bad GuysGäó do. Goonwaffe takes in new players form the Something Awful forums, Karmafleet takes in new players in general. Goons have a very thick (for NS) market, they have lots of information and advice on how new players can not only live in NS, but thrive (for example, run anomalies in groups when you are new yes, the pay off sucks compared to a 4 year player running a anomaly in a carrier....but it is way, way better than other new player options for income while solo).
Yes for rewards in null-sec and "allowing [players] to write their own [stories]," but Nemelle is also talking about tools for general corp management, and that's not something even the Goons can provide. I particularly like her point about finer controls for personnel management. It removes the grind of being a "space nanny" while making for more interesting internal security challenges. Post to Player Features and Ideas? |
Chewytowel Haklar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
256
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 01:34:21 -
[598] - Quote
whatamidoinghere wrote:Maybe if the game wasn't incredibly boring. I mean having to put effort into a game that I hope to get entertainment value out of isn't fun. I'd rather the content come to me, be spoonfed, and then gradually allow me to venture off on my own and do my thing after I have learned enough to be confident. I need to be trained to be an EVE player.
The biggest problem EVE has is that nerds suck at explaining things because they don't understand people don't think like them.
Wow... EVE is a game you have to put effort into. That isn't a bad thing at all. I'd rather have a game that makes you think and plan over a mindless game that has no lasting value. Maybe you met the wrong people, or perhaps you haven't ventured far enough to see what this game is really all about, but it will certainly bore you if you wait for it to entertain you.
I get though that you want the new experience to train you up, but you see the problem with that is that EVE is a sandbox. The developers can try to train you up to an adequate level of skill regarding the basic facets of the game, but they can't prepare you for everything you'll encounter. It is up to you to adapt. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3447
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 07:56:32 -
[599] - Quote
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:Alexander Maxim wrote:Server reset. And I say this as someone who has 10 years into this game. I know many friends who like the new mechanics, but won't play because of the powers that be.
Burn it all. Start from scratch.
I bet that subs would be off the charts. same here, ingame since 2009. seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status.
Unless you're also suggesting that CCP hack and delete all the external wikis, forums, Discord, IRC and Whatsapp channels, then your suggestion does nothing but consolidate power further into a small number of player groups.
Our greatest assets are not our wallets or titan fleets or citadels, our greatest assets are the institutional knowledge bases that we used to acquire those things.
Quote: why not introduce cycles/intervals to the game. every x years a reset happens. adjust skill training time/skill and bpo costs/etc accordingly. allow dual-char training on one account by default. it would focus the game onto what it really is, a fierce competetion, who can reach, settle and hold the outer edge of space first, starting from zero.
If this was to happen there would be no big upheaval like you suggest, the former owners would simply have agreed diplomatic agreements that they move back in and re-establish and the status quo would be preserved, all you're suggesting is CCP making the game more irritating for those groups which generate publicity and headlines. You'd also be dooming the game to guaranteed lull periods - who is going to commit to a war over the resources in the region next door knowing it would all be reset next month? For that matter, who is going to bother logging in to mine or rat or adjust market orders knowing that everything is going to be deleted and zeroed soon anyway?
Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
|
Rosie Hazelcrush
Fat Kitty Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 08:47:33 -
[600] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:
...snip...
If you want to be reset to zero, then start a new character. Nobody is stopping you. Better yet, go play a new game and make way for the new breed coming up. But blowing up the entire server because a few bittervets are bored is a breathtakingly stupid idea. My apologies for being offensive, but I don't know how else to say it.
no offense taken. but guess what, i did that in december'16. 2 fresh chars + kept this old one. i'm not bored, not at all, i'm not bitter, and i certainly don't consider myself beeing a "vet". i am still enjoying the game. you are missing the point though. my idea, and it was merely for the sake of discussion, was to give everyone the same base for a fresh start. single players resetting their chars is far from that.
why did i love eve so much back in '09? because i went the entire hard way from zero to something. i remember when i was counting single isk to be able to afford my first mining barge. when my hands were shaking when nearly losing my first battleship. how proud i was when i finished researching a certain set of BPOs to max. when we set up our first POS and switched on the shiny forcefield. when we calculated cost vs reward when doing invention runs. this entire experience, along with the harsh learning curve - as mentioned multiple times in this thread - made eve one of the most impressive games i ever played.
i am not against persistence, it is one of eve greatest features. i just think that it may have reached a level beyond balancing.
|
|
Honzas Krutas
Seekers of the Earth
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 12:56:46 -
[601] - Quote
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. Hello mate.
I like this. I was playing diablo2 at battle.net for a long time and there was esxactly this mechanic and server was resetted every year.
However, there will always be players who like what they have and will quit if you take it away from them. While its true a fresh start would give many players a new motivation to return to eve or just to play further, it could also drive the other half player away as they will not be interested and willing to start over.
I feel like this has no chance of being ever implemented, but there is no reason not to discuss it so to make this suggestion viable, EVE online would have to borrow a second mechanics from diablo and thats a ladder and non-ladder. In diablo, characters a nd your assests were actually not deleted at the end of the season, but instead moved into so called non-ladder. You could still play those characters but there were limits. Only ladder characters could find/do many items and special activities which added motivations to start a ladder character each season as the items that could be found only in ladder were extremely valuable on non-ladder. A little problem might be that in diablo ladder and nonladder characters were separated from each other. I believe that its not possible to keep them in single server and there is a question then how many players would be interested in playing the second server... still something to think about.
Modding is fun. Please add more customization into EVE!
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1076
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 16:17:44 -
[602] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote: If this was to happen there would be no big upheaval like you suggest, the former owners would simply have agreed diplomatic agreements that they move back in and re-establish and the status quo would be preserved, all you're suggesting is CCP making the game more irritating for those groups which generate publicity and headlines. You'd also be dooming the game to guaranteed lull periods - who is going to commit to a war over the resources in the region next door knowing it would all be reset next month? For that matter, who is going to bother logging in to mine or rat or adjust market orders knowing that everything is going to be deleted and zeroed soon anyway?
That is a very good point - people would scale their expectations with the cycles and invest a lot less in long term planning, etc. which means they are less invested in the game and more likely to be pulled more and more away from it as other things take up their interest. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6291
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 18:12:17 -
[603] - Quote
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:Zarek Kree wrote:
...snip...
If you want to be reset to zero, then start a new character. Nobody is stopping you. Better yet, go play a new game and make way for the new breed coming up. But blowing up the entire server because a few bittervets are bored is a breathtakingly stupid idea. My apologies for being offensive, but I don't know how else to say it.
no offense taken. but guess what, i did that in december'16. 2 fresh chars + kept this old one. i'm not bored, not at all, i'm not bitter, and i certainly don't consider myself beeing a "vet". i am still enjoying the game. you are missing the point though. my idea, and it was merely for the sake of discussion, was to give everyone the same base for a fresh start. single players resetting their chars is far from that. why did i love eve so much back in '09? because i went the entire hard way from zero to something. i remember when i was counting single isk to be able to afford my first mining barge. when my hands were shaking when nearly losing my first battleship. how proud i was when i finished researching a certain set of BPOs to max. when we set up our first POS and switched on the shiny forcefield. when we calculated cost vs reward when doing invention runs. this entire experience, along with the harsh learning curve - as mentioned multiple times in this thread - made eve one of the most impressive games i ever played. i am not against persistence, it is one of eve greatest features. i just think that it may have reached a level beyond balancing.
That is all find and good if you want to do that. I don't want too. So stop forcing, from the top down, something I don't want on me. And by the top down I mean by CCP doing something for your benefit and not mine. And please do not confuse this with CCP's periodic attempts to fix things, balance things, etc. And I do not mind you, as a player, trying to force something on me. At least there I have a chance and some options. But with CCP there is no chance, no options.
Oh, and all those experiences....my guess is you won't get them again, IMO. You have already done them. Brand new characters starting from zero won't bring that back because you are still the same person. You want that feeling again, go and do something you have not yet done in game. Try taking a character with starting ISK to a billion ISK via station trading. Try solo hunting in NS with a cloaked ship. Build your first super (either for you or for sale). Etc.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1211
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 20:04:14 -
[604] - Quote
All glory be to James 315. This thread of tears over the New Order is still going.
#mostrelevantallianceinthegame
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
113
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 20:30:38 -
[605] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:All glory be to James 315. This thread of tears over the New Order is still going.
#mostrelevantallianceinthegame
I don't think you actually read the thread. How is it that you think this thread is about "tears over the New Order"? |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6295
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 20:59:15 -
[606] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:You'd also be dooming the game to guaranteed lull periods - who is going to commit to a war over the resources in the region next door knowing it would all be reset next month? For that matter, who is going to bother logging in to mine or rat or adjust market orders knowing that everything is going to be deleted and zeroed soon anyway?
It might not even cycle. Right now why is it bad when somebody wants to come and kick over your personal sand castle in game? Because you had some sense of permanence. And why did you have this? Because you trust CCP to not come along and kick it over and where you have no chance of avoiding this. If at some random or even pre-determined date you know that all your work is going to be for literally nothing....why bother?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
141
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 21:42:25 -
[607] - Quote
What is up with CODE?
Is it a charade or have they truly drank too much Kool-Aid?
They seem almost as convinced as those Apple guys.
Live or die, YOUR choice.
~Eve
|
Sarker Calidan
Calidan Union
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 22:00:33 -
[608] - Quote
Honestly I think Alphas are far to restricted to ever use as a primary character. But it can be a good place to start for a new player still unsure if they was to subscribe.
However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed. |
Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
8
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 22:11:58 -
[609] - Quote
Sarker Calidan wrote:However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed. You can't extract skills from alpha set so there is no way to farm SP with alpha character. |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
460
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 22:28:37 -
[610] - Quote
Vokan Narkar wrote:Sarker Calidan wrote:However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed. You can't extract skills from alpha set so there is no way to farm SP with alpha character.
And with the halved training time, restriction to +3 implants and 24 hour skill queue. I don't know anyone who actually uses them for that. Even if it does happen it is by far the minority case. |
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6295
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 22:35:36 -
[611] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Vokan Narkar wrote:Sarker Calidan wrote:However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed. You can't extract skills from alpha set so there is no way to farm SP with alpha character. And with the halved training time, restriction to +3 implants and 24 hour skill queue. I don't know anyone who actually uses them for that. Even if it does happen it is by far the minority case.
One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
8
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 23:09:49 -
[612] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work. but even if you train full alpha set, even after you convert to omega you won't be allowed to extract any skill that can be trained on alpha. Also to fully train alpha set takes around 4 months. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6296
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 02:19:34 -
[613] - Quote
Vokan Narkar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work. but even if you train full alpha set, even after you convert to omega you won't be allowed to extract any skill that can be trained on alpha. Also to fully train alpha set takes around 4 months.
The point is you'd train them up to the point where you just get to that point, and do it for "free". Then you'd change them over to Omegas. Of course it isn't really "free" in that there is an opportunity cost involved as well.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
461
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 02:30:31 -
[614] - Quote
Vokan Narkar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work. but even if you train full alpha set, even after you convert to omega you won't be allowed to extract any skill that can be trained on alpha. Also to fully train alpha set takes around 4 months.
That part isn't true. You can extract alpha skills as an omega. But it's still 4-5 months of constant daily skill swapping. Just for a very small increase in "free" efficiency. |
Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
569
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 05:51:46 -
[615] - Quote
My little 0.2 cents which everyone will disagree, one person said it right, running out of adventures, what low sec, null and WH dwellers don't get is that more PVE'ers would love to take on bigger chances but on their terms, that being PVE.
It is impossible, the moment someone ventures out into those areas they are hunted down with such enthusiasm that their adventures get cut short by blood thirsty players, now I understand that those are PVP areas, I get it, but newer players won't, they will just know that they will just get beat by the more experienced and this is eve, however there are newer games of the space genre out and coming out and many of them support PVE and allow the user to have some control over how they wish to play the game, eve hardcore players can't seem to wrap this around their heads, it's a new age of gaming, like it or not PVE must be allowed to be otherwise it just moves people to other games that will cater to the PVE experience.
This is not to say PVP is bad but when you have such a high restriction on freedom of movement by non-PVP players this doesn't do anything but make people move on, the hatered of non-PVP players has got to cool down, every since I've been in eve hatered of miners has been the biggest thing forever, then high sec dwellers, no reason other then "they are ruining the game" when in fact this game has chugged along with those players and destroying their game play is destroying your own as people move off to earn their internet credits elsewhere.
If you PVP players want to truly save this game then frankly you need to lay off the hatred, I don't get how some of you have such hostile feelings for someone minding their own business chewing a rock, or hi-secing it up, so what, if they are paying good for me because the lights will stay on at CCP, yes we need adventures, we need puzzles, we need storylines, without them this game stagnates because there is no adventures only death waiting for anybody venturing out into the lower realms by the hands of expert players with omni powers, anyway I'm out |
Azalyn Akiga
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 08:21:29 -
[616] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:My little 0.2 cents which everyone will disagree, one person said it right, running out of adventures, what low sec, null and WH dwellers don't get is that more PVE'ers would love to take on bigger chances but on their terms, that being PVE. It is impossible, the moment someone ventures out into those areas they are hunted down with such enthusiasm that their adventures get cut short by blood thirsty players, now I understand that those are PVP areas, I get it, but newer players won't, they will just know that they will just get beat by the more experienced and this is eve, however there are newer games of the space genre out and coming out and many of them support PVE and allow the user to have some control over how they wish to play the game, eve hardcore players can't seem to wrap this around their heads, it's a new age of gaming, like it or not PVE must be allowed to be otherwise it just moves people to other games that will cater to the PVE experience. This is not to say PVP is bad but when you have such a high restriction on freedom of movement by non-PVP players this doesn't do anything but make people move on, the hatered of non-PVP players has got to cool down, every since I've been in eve hatered of miners has been the biggest thing forever, then high sec dwellers, no reason other then "they are ruining the game" when in fact this game has chugged along with those players and destroying their game play is destroying your own as people move off to earn their internet credits elsewhere. If you PVP players want to truly save this game then frankly you need to lay off the hatred, I don't get how some of you have such hostile feelings for someone minding their own business chewing a rock, or hi-secing it up, so what, if they are paying good for me because the lights will stay on at CCP, yes we need adventures, we need puzzles, we need storylines, without them this game stagnates because there is no adventures only death waiting for anybody venturing out into the lower realms by the hands of expert players with omni powers, anyway I'm out
You are asking pvpers to stop their hatred, it-¦s like asking a rely depressed person to just be happy it will never happen.
What most eve players think, move everything to null remove high sec all together. And some eve players remove pve,mining and everything that is not pvp.
Eve online will always be a niche game that is for only a few type of people.
people with allot of patience people with ADD and some few pvper-¦s
Heck even the pvp in eve is niche cuz majority of people who love pvp will play Overwatch or some MOBA game or Battlefilde 1 because it-¦s just jump in do pvp no bullshit no slow as skill training to play the next class no spending several minutes to hours to get a fight.
I like eve but this game is for very few people and we have to live with it. Eve will proboly not be around 2019-2020 if CCP don-¦t make enough cash to not fold. This is why you need a bunch of games out on the market not just a mmos ,2 phone game an a VR game that costs more to play than it-¦s worth I mean im not paying 500 dollar for a VR headset to play like 2-4 games they should have made Valkyrie for both VR and non VR and I bet your ass the game would sell even more.
We have live with it eve will die but I commend it for being alive for so long I seen mmos with 500k players any given time of the day die after 1-3 years. Majority of people I seen online the past 7 years I played is 30-35k any given time of the day.
But yeah people in eve will always dislike the way you play I don-¦t know why maybe they have such a ****** life they must waste there time to bother on how other play the game and hate on you because you don-¦t play the game the way they do. |
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
157
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 11:20:02 -
[617] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:the hatered of non-PVP players has got to cool down, every since I've been in eve hatered of miners has been the biggest thing forever I feel I have to reflect on that, as I sense a dark misconception. I, as a player am glad that you play the same awesme game I play. Nothing you can do ingame will change that.
But when you mine, you generate money and other resources. And the money and resources you generate devaules whatever me and my allies can make, as we are all competing on the same market. Also while I love to think that miners only ever mine to have better mining equipment to mine even more with, we always have to suspect that you have a PvPer deep down inside you, and whatever you earn will be eventually transformed into war supplies that aid my enemies. You are not my enemy you say? Well, the fact that you are not in the same Coalition as I am says otherwise.
So yeah, I hate miners. But I love you for playing here. Hope you'll endure the hardships you'll face, and that you will gather enough experience to generate content (other than being a juicy target while printing ISK).
Piugattuk wrote:what low sec, null and WH dwellers don't get is that more PVE'ers would love to take on bigger chances but on their terms, that being PVE. Sure we get it, and we have a solution: recruitment. Become one of the locals, who invest a lot of effort into making -their- home safe for -their- people. But if you don't, don't blame them for securing their space and their resources, even if it involves hunting you down if you trespass and steal.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
|
Caleb Seremshur
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
868
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 11:48:13 -
[618] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language). EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go. idk about that. Many solutions are available to someone that really want stand up to power blocks. For example starting in some NPC null space, or rent some space to let your corp grow up. Low Sec is not the place people that get out from HS should go. Specially miners and farmers. Null sec is way more vast and safer from that point of view. just becouse people have titans and supers doesn't mean you have no chance. just play around them and wait for you chance. (i.e. test and co2 moved way down on the map just becouse atm they are outnumbered with supers and titans. Can't wait to see what will happen when they will have enough capital numbers to stand up against goons, NC and PL. Gotta be Gud) they have the advantage but it's an advantage that is closing imo.
No i think the main problem this game has is that the economy has no ceiling. You can mine infinite materials, infinite ships infinite modules. There's no economic limiting factors driving conflict (like USA aggression in the middle east) because everything is essentially available whereever you are. |
Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
2407
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 11:58:25 -
[619] - Quote
Over 40k players logged in on Saturday and Sunday again, I am sure CCP does not mind this kind of "fail". |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
80
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 13:22:27 -
[620] - Quote
Honzas Krutas wrote:Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. Hello mate. I like this. I was playing diablo2 at battle.net for a long time and there was esxactly this mechanic and server was resetted every year. However, there will always be players who like what they have and will quit if you take it away from them. While its true a fresh start would give many players a new motivation to return to eve or just to play further, it could also drive the other half player away as they will not be interested and willing to start over. I feel like this has no chance of being ever implemented, but there is no reason not to discuss it so to make this suggestion viable, EVE online would have to borrow a second mechanics from diablo and thats a ladder and non-ladder. In diablo, characters a nd your assests were actually not deleted at the end of the season, but instead moved into so called non-ladder. You could still play those characters but there were limits. Only ladder characters could find/do many items and special activities which added motivations to start a ladder character each season as the items that could be found only in ladder were extremely valuable on non-ladder. A little problem might be that in diablo ladder and nonladder characters were separated from each other. I believe that its not possible to keep them in single server and there is a question then how many players would be interested in playing the second server... still something to think about.
I think a way to get both is to create another Sever.
Right now eve has two... Tranquility and Serenity.
So... imagine if they announced they were creating a new server... and everyone had to start from scratch. Some would stay on their current server. Some would move over. Some would play both. New players would have a universe to start in where they are not 15 years behind.
Each server would have smaller numbers individually... but the total would be higher. Not sure if that would be what they'd want or not.
|
|
Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
578
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 13:45:43 -
[621] - Quote
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:Piugattuk wrote:the hatered of non-PVP players has got to cool down, every since I've been in eve hatered of miners has been the biggest thing forever I feel I have to reflect on that, as I sense a dark misconception. I, as a player am glad that you play the same awesme game I play. Nothing you can do ingame will change that. But when you mine, you generate money and other resources. And the money and resources you generate devaules whatever me and my allies can make, as we are all competing on the same market. Also while I love to think that miners only ever mine to have better mining equipment to mine even more with, we always have to suspect that you have a PvPer deep down inside you, and whatever you earn will be eventually transformed into war supplies that aid my enemies. You are not my enemy you say? Well, the fact that you are not in the same Coalition as I am says otherwise. So yeah, I hate miners. But I love you for playing here. Hope you'll endure the hardships you'll face, and that you will gather enough experience to generate content (other than being a juicy target while printing ISK). Piugattuk wrote:what low sec, null and WH dwellers don't get is that more PVE'ers would love to take on bigger chances but on their terms, that being PVE. Sure we get it, and we have a solution: recruitment. Become one of the locals, who invest a lot of effort into making -their- home safe for -their- people. But if you don't, don't blame them for securing their space and their resources, even if it involves hunting you down if you trespass and steal.
Great points, only I do take issue with a small part, I've reached out to people in the netherworlds to try to hammer out a deal and use their space, but have always been ignored or told to FO, eve being eve I get it, you can't trust anybody and that's where it ends sadly. |
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 15:36:52 -
[622] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Great points, only I do take issue with a small part, I've reached out to people in the netherworlds to try to hammer out a deal and use their space, but have always been ignored or told to FO, eve being eve I get it, you can't trust anybody and that's where it ends sadly. You got one of the better outcomes of all those I can imagine...
But you know... finding a good corp that fits you, wants you and welcomes you is like... well, just about like anything in EvE. Hard to figure out on your own, easy to fall into traps.. and doing your homework -before- attempting it pays off.
Did they refuse? Mistrust goes both ways. :) Their loss, and maybe your gain.
And if the worse happens, one can always lick his wounds and retry it with more experience that hopefully transformed into more wisdom.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3287
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 15:46:56 -
[623] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Honzas Krutas wrote:Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. Hello mate. I like this. I was playing diablo2 at battle.net for a long time and there was esxactly this mechanic and server was resetted every year. However, there will always be players who like what they have and will quit if you take it away from them. While its true a fresh start would give many players a new motivation to return to eve or just to play further, it could also drive the other half player away as they will not be interested and willing to start over. I feel like this has no chance of being ever implemented, but there is no reason not to discuss it so to make this suggestion viable, EVE online would have to borrow a second mechanics from diablo and thats a ladder and non-ladder. In diablo, characters a nd your assests were actually not deleted at the end of the season, but instead moved into so called non-ladder. You could still play those characters but there were limits. Only ladder characters could find/do many items and special activities which added motivations to start a ladder character each season as the items that could be found only in ladder were extremely valuable on non-ladder. A little problem might be that in diablo ladder and nonladder characters were separated from each other. I believe that its not possible to keep them in single server and there is a question then how many players would be interested in playing the second server... still something to think about. I think a way to get both is to create another Sever. Right now eve has two... Tranquility and Serenity. So... imagine if they announced they were creating a new server... and everyone had to start from scratch. Some would stay on their current server. Some would move over. Some would play both. New players would have a universe to start in where they are not 15 years behind. Each server would have smaller numbers individually... but the total would be higher. Not sure if that would be what they'd want or not.
This would not help. People already complain i's too hard to find content and you want to split the population over 2+ instance? |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1217
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 17:38:12 -
[624] - Quote
Oh, believe me, I've read the thread. It's been entertaining me for days!
You gotta read between the lines of this thread, it's pretty stealthy, but it's definitely a tear thread over the New Order.
Post #291
Galaxy Pig wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Electronic Arts likes F2P models... And here we have it. This entire thread is tears. This whole topic is just designed to support the narrative of fail anti-gankers. The whole "CODE. is killing the game so CCP made alphas to fluff up the numbers so they can sell the game." It's tinfoil, but more than that, it's tears. Another threadnaught full of tears over the New Order. Lol
All glory be to the Savior of Highsec, James 315. Peace and blessings be upon him.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
119
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 17:48:39 -
[625] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:Oh, believe me, I've read the thread. It's been entertaining me for days! You gotta read between the lines of this thread, it's pretty stealthy, but it's definitely a tear thread over the New Order. Post #291 Galaxy Pig wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Electronic Arts likes F2P models... And here we have it. This entire thread is tears. This whole topic is just designed to support the narrative of fail anti-gankers. The whole "CODE. is killing the game so CCP made alphas to fluff up the numbers so they can sell the game." It's tinfoil, but more than that, it's tears. Another threadnaught full of tears over the New Order. Lol All glory be to the Savior of Highsec, James 315. Peace and blessings be upon him.
Ohhhhh...You have to read between the lines? You should have just said that to begin with. Do you have to chant and recite an incantation too?
Of course if you read between the lines while reading between the lines it's actually CODE tears. But that requires training up Reading Between the Lines to level 5, which has Quijie Board V as a prerequisite - so you may not have that yet. |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1217
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 17:54:16 -
[626] - Quote
Look at the OP's corp name, dude. It's pretty obvious that his entire identity is defined by butthurt over the New Order.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
119
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 18:01:23 -
[627] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:Look at the OP's corp name, dude. It's pretty obvious that his entire identity is defined by butthurt over the New Order.
Yeah, but you're not reading between the lines. |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1217
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 18:27:18 -
[628] - Quote
Is that turn of phrase taboo or something? You'll have to help me out here, I don't keep up with internet culture...
Hey, you know your snarky little comments also count as tears, right? Yup. Clear and evident butthurt.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
|
Jita Baldness
science and trade institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 03:34:02 -
[629] - Quote
Eve is just too expensive overall to do the free to play micro transaction model.
How many dollars (selling plex) worth of skill injectors would it take to fly anything fun? Plus I have to maintain a sub anyways (plex or traditional).
If the barrier to entry is more than a AAA game then it will fail. (Guess what its quite a lot more in most cases for anything t2!)
It is hundreds of dollars to do anything from scratch. Very few free to play games have that kind of barrier when it comes right down to it. When it was a sub it all made sense, now really how many people will drop hundreds or thousands to play a game?
On top of this the constant nerfing of PVE income has made this game a cash grab at this point. Its unrealistic compared to when I started to pay your sub via in game income (300mil plex anyone?).
Sad really, this game is outstanding but the greed is killing it.
The alphas added up the cost to ACTUALLY play the game and noped out quick! |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
468
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 05:22:19 -
[630] - Quote
Jita Baldness wrote:Eve is just too expensive overall to do the free to play micro transaction model.
How many dollars (selling plex) worth of skill injectors would it take to fly anything fun? Plus I have to maintain a sub anyways (plex or traditional).
If the barrier to entry is more than a AAA game then it will fail. (Guess what its quite a lot more in most cases for anything t2!)
It is hundreds of dollars to do anything from scratch. Very few free to play games have that kind of barrier when it comes right down to it. When it was a sub it all made sense, now really how many people will drop hundreds or thousands to play a game?
On top of this the constant nerfing of PVE income has made this game a cash grab at this point. Its unrealistic compared to when I started to pay your sub via in game income (300mil plex anyone?).
Sad really, this game is outstanding but the greed is killing it.
The alphas added up the cost to ACTUALLY play the game and noped out quick!
Unrealistic to plex your accounts anymore? I remember the 300 mil plex days. And frankly it's a hell of a lot easier to get the 1.2b needed now than it was back then.
But what do I know, I only have 8 accounts I keep Plexed playing casually in HS. |
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6344
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 07:04:30 -
[631] - Quote
Jita Baldness wrote:Eve is just too expensive overall to do the free to play micro transaction model.
How many dollars (selling plex) worth of skill injectors would it take to fly anything fun? Plus I have to maintain a sub anyways (plex or traditional).
Then obtain SP the old fashioned way. If you want to circumvent time you need to shell out...and increasing amounts. That has been CCPs position for quite some time.
Quote:If the barrier to entry is more than a AAA game then it will fail. (Guess what its quite a lot more in most cases for anything t2!)
The price of the game has not changed since it began, hence in real terms it is cheaper than ever. And if you buy a year at a time it is $11/month.
Quote:It is hundreds of dollars to do anything from scratch. Very few free to play games have that kind of barrier when it comes right down to it. When it was a sub it all made sense, now really how many people will drop hundreds or thousands to play a game?
Of course, if you want to skip 1 year of training it is going to be expensive. Working as intended. Stop whining free stuff.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Skelee VI
Wraithguard. The Wraithguard.
64
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 16:44:48 -
[632] - Quote
Get rid of security all together, anyone can be attacked anywhere anytime! Nowhere to hide! Remove nullification from interceptors, biggest joke in eve. limit the number of player owned assets in space in each system . too many citadels and astrahas out there. Redo the SOV crap |
Jita Baldness
science and trade institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 17:38:20 -
[633] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Jita Baldness wrote:Eve is just too expensive overall to do the free to play micro transaction model.
How many dollars (selling plex) worth of skill injectors would it take to fly anything fun? Plus I have to maintain a sub anyways (plex or traditional).
If the barrier to entry is more than a AAA game then it will fail. (Guess what its quite a lot more in most cases for anything t2!)
It is hundreds of dollars to do anything from scratch. Very few free to play games have that kind of barrier when it comes right down to it. When it was a sub it all made sense, now really how many people will drop hundreds or thousands to play a game?
On top of this the constant nerfing of PVE income has made this game a cash grab at this point. Its unrealistic compared to when I started to pay your sub via in game income (300mil plex anyone?).
Sad really, this game is outstanding but the greed is killing it.
The alphas added up the cost to ACTUALLY play the game and noped out quick! Unrealistic to plex your accounts anymore? I remember the 300 mil plex days. And frankly it's a hell of a lot easier to get the 1.2b needed now than it was back then. But what do I know, I only have 8 accounts I keep Plexed playing casually in HS.
I also am running over 10 accounts at the moment, however I wouldn't be able to without skill extractions. If you seriously do exploration and missions (or incursions) and plex 8 then I commend your free time.
When it was 300 mil plex i ran 4 accounts. I missioned (L4) and explored in low sec and a good drop could be a plex immediately. I also would day trip into WH for Nanoribbons, it was a LOT less nanoribbons those days to pay for an account. I truly believe that it only became harder to plex until injectors were released, which for new players did not help at all unless you are dropping money. This is a thread about alphas right? Not set up legacy players who ride the extractor train.
Now I extract from 8 to "free to play" for 4. Luckily I had many accounts that were over 5 mil sp so I could easily transition to the new economy.
But I can honestly say that if I wanted to start today I would run some missions and quit quite quickly. I would not tough it out for months to be able to set up some kind of extraction farm to play, nor would I explore in HS for hours to plex multiple accounts. |
Trading Shitposting Alt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 19:11:22 -
[634] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:EvE is Dying SoonGäó Edit: you want big numbers back? let the game go back to the true eve! NO casuals NO plex ONLY sub ONLY nerds and heavy farmer #SkillsRequired #NoCreditCardAllowed Edit2: the competition should be on how much you can do ingame, now how much plex you can buy with money
Was reading this discussion, found only your comment having point just one thing "No plex" you would use that to erase using credit card to get ingame money, but what will you do with many hardocore players that have same views as you do but are plexing with isk because they can, how will you keep them playing with you, also trust me plex is not big of issue, think about it a bit you will come to understand me |
Austin Blythe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 19:23:39 -
[635] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:8 accounts
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:playing casually
rofl
|
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
470
|
Posted - 2017.04.05 19:34:53 -
[636] - Quote
Jita Baldness wrote:Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Jita Baldness wrote:Eve is just too expensive overall to do the free to play micro transaction model.
How many dollars (selling plex) worth of skill injectors would it take to fly anything fun? Plus I have to maintain a sub anyways (plex or traditional).
If the barrier to entry is more than a AAA game then it will fail. (Guess what its quite a lot more in most cases for anything t2!)
It is hundreds of dollars to do anything from scratch. Very few free to play games have that kind of barrier when it comes right down to it. When it was a sub it all made sense, now really how many people will drop hundreds or thousands to play a game?
On top of this the constant nerfing of PVE income has made this game a cash grab at this point. Its unrealistic compared to when I started to pay your sub via in game income (300mil plex anyone?).
Sad really, this game is outstanding but the greed is killing it.
The alphas added up the cost to ACTUALLY play the game and noped out quick! Unrealistic to plex your accounts anymore? I remember the 300 mil plex days. And frankly it's a hell of a lot easier to get the 1.2b needed now than it was back then. But what do I know, I only have 8 accounts I keep Plexed playing casually in HS. I also am running over 10 accounts at the moment, however I wouldn't be able to without skill extractions. If you seriously do exploration and missions (or incursions) and plex 8 then I commend your free time. When it was 300 mil plex i ran 4 accounts. I missioned (L4) and explored in low sec and a good drop could be a plex immediately. I also would day trip into WH for Nanoribbons, it was a LOT less nanoribbons those days to pay for an account. I truly believe that it only became harder to plex until injectors were released, which for new players did not help at all unless you are dropping money. This is a thread about alphas right? Not set up legacy players who ride the extractor train. Now I extract from 8 to "free to play" for 4. Luckily I had many accounts that were over 5 mil sp so I could easily transition to the new economy. But I can honestly say that if I wanted to start today I would run some missions and quit quite quickly. I would not tough it out for months to be able to set up some kind of extraction farm to play, nor would I explore in HS for hours to plex multiple accounts.
back then very few people actually did exploration, and scanning wasn't nearly as "entry level" as it is now. they rebalanced things to make it easier to get into, arguably the easiest career that makes reasonable isk in fact. and it is inevitably one of the first careers we suggest to alphas and newbros.
same thing with nanoribbons, Wh's where not nearly as heavily farmed back then, which kept the prices higher.
datacore farming has also all but vanished.
on the reverse side of that though, manufacturing has become considerably more profitable and easier for a new player to compete in. and with the reduced price of pirate hulls, its easier and faster than ever to get into one for both lvl 4 missions or incursions. yes inflation has made it SLIGHTLY more difficult to plex your accounts, but most of your examples are just formerly high income activities that have been rebalanced and since become low-moderate income ones. which is more due to alphas and newbros actually running the content more, than it has to do with the overall price of plex. |
Commander Spurty
1682
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 16:02:46 -
[637] - Quote
What is the point of adding new players to a game where everybody just sets standings / gets absorbed by existing entities as there is no boundary here?
Just don't get how the act of "swelling existing entities" more, gets us from where we already are,to somewhere better.
Answer that and then come back to us.
There are good ships,
And wood ships,
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
83
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 18:06:58 -
[638] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Scialt wrote:Honzas Krutas wrote:Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. Hello mate. I like this. I was playing diablo2 at battle.net for a long time and there was esxactly this mechanic and server was resetted every year. However, there will always be players who like what they have and will quit if you take it away from them. While its true a fresh start would give many players a new motivation to return to eve or just to play further, it could also drive the other half player away as they will not be interested and willing to start over. I feel like this has no chance of being ever implemented, but there is no reason not to discuss it so to make this suggestion viable, EVE online would have to borrow a second mechanics from diablo and thats a ladder and non-ladder. In diablo, characters a nd your assests were actually not deleted at the end of the season, but instead moved into so called non-ladder. You could still play those characters but there were limits. Only ladder characters could find/do many items and special activities which added motivations to start a ladder character each season as the items that could be found only in ladder were extremely valuable on non-ladder. A little problem might be that in diablo ladder and nonladder characters were separated from each other. I believe that its not possible to keep them in single server and there is a question then how many players would be interested in playing the second server... still something to think about. I think a way to get both is to create another Sever. Right now eve has two... Tranquility and Serenity. So... imagine if they announced they were creating a new server... and everyone had to start from scratch. Some would stay on their current server. Some would move over. Some would play both. New players would have a universe to start in where they are not 15 years behind. Each server would have smaller numbers individually... but the total would be higher. Not sure if that would be what they'd want or not. This would not help. People already complain i's too hard to find content and you want to split the population over 2+ instance?
This would help overall subscriber numbers I think (at least in the short run). Many people (especially new players) would be more interested in a "start from scratch" location where everyone is beginning with a few hundred thousand isk... as opposed to sharing space with people who have hundreds of billions of isk when they have just a few hundred thousand.
In the long run... splitting the player base probably would be an issue. But I do think it will always be difficult to attract new players to a mature, 15 year old universe where people are already entrenched. I came back with the recent Alpha release... but I wasn't starting fresh. I had a 35 million SP and a 12 million SP toon to come back too with about 10 billion in assets. I'm nowhere near competitive with the long time players... but I'm not starting from scratch either. I'm not sure I would sub if I started from scratch.
Perhaps there's another solution than a new server to attract new players. The Alpha program gives people a taste and that has helped... but the trend is going to go back to a downward one soon I think. Perhaps some sort of gift can be created for a new subscriber to help new players feel like the gulf between them and established players is something that can be closed... without drastically messing up how new players learn to play the game. |
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
133
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 19:08:02 -
[639] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Scialt wrote:Honzas Krutas wrote:Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status. Hello mate. I like this. I was playing diablo2 at battle.net for a long time and there was esxactly this mechanic and server was resetted every year. However, there will always be players who like what they have and will quit if you take it away from them. While its true a fresh start would give many players a new motivation to return to eve or just to play further, it could also drive the other half player away as they will not be interested and willing to start over. I feel like this has no chance of being ever implemented, but there is no reason not to discuss it so to make this suggestion viable, EVE online would have to borrow a second mechanics from diablo and thats a ladder and non-ladder. In diablo, characters a nd your assests were actually not deleted at the end of the season, but instead moved into so called non-ladder. You could still play those characters but there were limits. Only ladder characters could find/do many items and special activities which added motivations to start a ladder character each season as the items that could be found only in ladder were extremely valuable on non-ladder. A little problem might be that in diablo ladder and nonladder characters were separated from each other. I believe that its not possible to keep them in single server and there is a question then how many players would be interested in playing the second server... still something to think about. I think a way to get both is to create another Sever. Right now eve has two... Tranquility and Serenity. So... imagine if they announced they were creating a new server... and everyone had to start from scratch. Some would stay on their current server. Some would move over. Some would play both. New players would have a universe to start in where they are not 15 years behind. Each server would have smaller numbers individually... but the total would be higher. Not sure if that would be what they'd want or not. This would not help. People already complain i's too hard to find content and you want to split the population over 2+ instance? This would help overall subscriber numbers I think (at least in the short run). Many people (especially new players) would be more interested in a "start from scratch" location where everyone is beginning with a few hundred thousand isk... as opposed to sharing space with people who have hundreds of billions of isk when they have just a few hundred thousand. In the long run... splitting the player base probably would be an issue. But I do think it will always be difficult to attract new players to a mature, 15 year old universe where people are already entrenched. I came back with the recent Alpha release... but I wasn't starting fresh. I had a 35 million SP and a 12 million SP toon to come back too with about 10 billion in assets. I'm nowhere near competitive with the long time players... but I'm not starting from scratch either. I'm not sure I would sub if I started from scratch. Perhaps there's another solution than a new server to attract new players. The Alpha program gives people a taste and that has helped... but the trend is going to go back to a downward one soon I think. Perhaps some sort of gift can be created for a new subscriber to help new players feel like the gulf between them and established players is something that can be closed... without drastically messing up how new players learn to play the game.
The number of people who are influenced by the desire to operate at the extreme upper echelons of the game is so small as to be meaningless to general recruiting. I have less than a year in the game. I'll never be competitive with many of the long time players - but I never would have been to begin with regardless of when I started because I'd never commit myself to that degree. Will I ever be CEO of a major corporation? Nope. But there are no circumstances in which I ever would have been. That's not why I play the game and I don't think that's why most people play the game.
That said, I don't need or want a leg up. I already have to listen to snaggle-toothed old-timers complain about skill injectors - you think I want to give them another reason to tell me how easy I have it? Besides, I don't feel limited in what I can do. It strikes me that most of the leaders I've met in-game up to now have been people who came on board in the last several years. They're not all 2003 players (frankly I don't know any of those) or even 2007 players. But I know lots of players from 2011-2013 time frame who are leaders at every level. I can do anything I'd WANT to do.
By your philosophy, nobody ever would have joined after about 2005 - yet people obviously did and continue to. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
84
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 20:05:34 -
[640] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:
The number of people who are influenced by the desire to operate at the extreme upper echelons of the game is so small as to be meaningless to general recruiting. I have less than a year in the game. I'll never be competitive with many of the long time players - but I never would have been to begin with regardless of when I started because I'd never commit myself to that degree. Will I ever be CEO of a major corporation? Nope. But there are no circumstances in which I ever would have been. That's not why I play the game and I don't think that's why most people play the game.
That said, I don't need or want a leg up. I already have to listen to snaggle-toothed old-timers complain about skill injectors - you think I want to give them another reason to tell me how easy I have it? Besides, I don't feel limited in what I can do. It strikes me that most of the leaders I've met in-game up to now have been people who came on board in the last several years. They're not all 2003 players (frankly I don't know any of those) or even 2007 players. But I know lots of players from 2011-2013 time frame who are leaders at every level. I can do anything I'd WANT to do.
By your philosophy, nobody ever would have joined after about 2005 - yet people obviously did and continue to.
I disagree with the first sentence strongly. I've seen a million people in the new pilots forum make posts about how it takes too long to get to (what they perceive) as the "end game" to be told by everyone here that Eve has no end game and that they should quit and go play WOW or something.
Now of course not everyone has the mindset of wanting to take part in the "upper echelons" of a game... but it's silly not to recognize that many do.
Second... while new players do join, we've been going in a negative direction for a while now in terms of total players (with an uptick with Alphas but not an upward trend overall). That means more people are stopping playing Eve than starting. While we don't have hard numbers on that, I wonder how many more of those who are stopping are people relatively new to the game (those who subbed for a few months to a year and didn't renew) vs those who had been longer term players. I'm enjoying myself a lot now... and I enjoyed myself a lot when I stopped in 2009 (I left due to out of game reasons, not due to lack of enjoyment). But even back in the 2006-2009 time period... I hit a lull period where the game stopped being new but I had to wait for a while to get to be able to do things I wanted to do. I stopped playing as much and nearly quit... but decided to give it another try (with another 6-9 months of AFK training)... and had a much better time. Perhaps I connected with a better group of players... but I'm not so sure. I've tried going back with alts and doing stuff with that level of skill points and isk rewards... and frankly I tolerate it less now than I did back then. I do think there's a period from after the game stops being new and before you start having enough skills and taking in enough isk to start thinking about strategic goals in the game as opposed to just "getting by" where Eve struggles most with retention.
Now keep in mind... CCP has done some good things to make it more palatable than it was when I went through that lull. For example, we don't have to worry about learning skills anymore (that was a horrible thing... waiting for learning skills to train so you could start actually training to do stuff... or suffering crappy training times by not training learning skills). But I still firmly believe there is a point (perhaps a different point depending on what you're doing) where you have to get past a grind to get to "the good stuff". And it usually hits at a point where the 600m skill injector cost is prohibitive in terms of what you can make with the skills you have at the time.
But again... my views are from my experience years ago and what I see as an older player who went back and tried to run lower level content in an alt. I could be totally off on what a 6-12 month player who's new to Eve is feeling. |
|
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
134
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 20:24:44 -
[641] - Quote
Scialt wrote:I disagree with the first sentence strongly. I've seen a million people in the new pilots forum make posts about how it takes too long to get to (what they perceive) as the "end game" to be told by everyone here that Eve has no end game and that they should quit and go play WOW or something.
Now of course not everyone has the mindset of wanting to take part in the "upper echelons" of a game... but it's silly not to recognize that many do.
Second... while new players do join, we've been going in a negative direction for a while now in terms of total players (with an uptick with Alphas but not an upward trend overall). That means more people are stopping playing Eve than starting. While we don't have hard numbers on that, I wonder how many more of those who are stopping are people relatively new to the game (those who subbed for a few months to a year and didn't renew) vs those who had been longer term players. I'm enjoying myself a lot now... and I enjoyed myself a lot when I stopped in 2009 (I left due to out of game reasons, not due to lack of enjoyment). But even back in the 2006-2009 time period... I hit a lull period where the game stopped being new but I had to wait for a while to get to be able to do things I wanted to do. I stopped playing as much and nearly quit... but decided to give it another try (with another 6-9 months of AFK training)... and had a much better time. Perhaps I connected with a better group of players... but I'm not so sure. I've tried going back with alts and doing stuff with that level of skill points and isk rewards... and frankly I tolerate it less now than I did back then. I do think there's a period from after the game stops being new and before you start having enough skills and taking in enough isk to start thinking about strategic goals in the game as opposed to just "getting by" where Eve struggles most with retention.
Now keep in mind... CCP has done some good things to make it more palatable than it was when I went through that lull. For example, we don't have to worry about learning skills anymore (that was a horrible thing... waiting for learning skills to train so you could start actually training to do stuff... or suffering crappy training times by not training learning skills). But I still firmly believe there is a point (perhaps a different point depending on what you're doing) where you have to get past a grind to get to "the good stuff". And it usually hits at a point where the 600m skill injector cost is prohibitive in terms of what you can make with the skills you have at the time.
But again... my views are from my experience years ago and what I see as an older player who went back and tried to run lower level content in an alt. I could be totally off on what a 6-12 month player who's new to Eve is feeling.
The only way to address the concerns of those players wanting an instant end-game fix is to fundamentally change the entire nature of the game. If they do that, I'll leave along with many others. You can't dumb down this game or make it easier without breaking it.
We're only months into their effort to reverse the downward trend with alphas and an enhanced NPE. We won't know if it's succeeded or failed for at least a year when the retention numbers become clearer. It's certainly not time to talk about changing the nature of the game. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
84
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 20:49:04 -
[642] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Scialt wrote:I disagree with the first sentence strongly. I've seen a million people in the new pilots forum make posts about how it takes too long to get to (what they perceive) as the "end game" to be told by everyone here that Eve has no end game and that they should quit and go play WOW or something.
Now of course not everyone has the mindset of wanting to take part in the "upper echelons" of a game... but it's silly not to recognize that many do.
Second... while new players do join, we've been going in a negative direction for a while now in terms of total players (with an uptick with Alphas but not an upward trend overall). That means more people are stopping playing Eve than starting. While we don't have hard numbers on that, I wonder how many more of those who are stopping are people relatively new to the game (those who subbed for a few months to a year and didn't renew) vs those who had been longer term players. I'm enjoying myself a lot now... and I enjoyed myself a lot when I stopped in 2009 (I left due to out of game reasons, not due to lack of enjoyment). But even back in the 2006-2009 time period... I hit a lull period where the game stopped being new but I had to wait for a while to get to be able to do things I wanted to do. I stopped playing as much and nearly quit... but decided to give it another try (with another 6-9 months of AFK training)... and had a much better time. Perhaps I connected with a better group of players... but I'm not so sure. I've tried going back with alts and doing stuff with that level of skill points and isk rewards... and frankly I tolerate it less now than I did back then. I do think there's a period from after the game stops being new and before you start having enough skills and taking in enough isk to start thinking about strategic goals in the game as opposed to just "getting by" where Eve struggles most with retention.
Now keep in mind... CCP has done some good things to make it more palatable than it was when I went through that lull. For example, we don't have to worry about learning skills anymore (that was a horrible thing... waiting for learning skills to train so you could start actually training to do stuff... or suffering crappy training times by not training learning skills). But I still firmly believe there is a point (perhaps a different point depending on what you're doing) where you have to get past a grind to get to "the good stuff". And it usually hits at a point where the 600m skill injector cost is prohibitive in terms of what you can make with the skills you have at the time.
But again... my views are from my experience years ago and what I see as an older player who went back and tried to run lower level content in an alt. I could be totally off on what a 6-12 month player who's new to Eve is feeling. The only way to address the concerns of those players wanting an instant end-game fix is to fundamentally change the entire nature of the game. If they do that, I'll leave along with many others. You can't dumb down this game or make it easier without breaking it. We're only months into their effort to reverse the downward trend with alphas and an enhanced NPE. We won't know if it's succeeded or failed for at least a year when the retention numbers become clearer. It's certainly not time to talk about changing the nature of the game.
I think there's a middle ground between "instant end-game" and lessening the grind to get to a point of skills/isk that feels like you're able to access most of EVE. CCP took a step toward doing that by getting rid of the learning skills. Perhaps another step could be that if you're Omega, you get 5X the sp when training until you hit 5 million SP (or some other smaller multiplier if needed).
I came up through mission running as an isk making mechanism... but the rewards from missions pretty much suck until you get to lvl 4. Once you get to the point you can run those without dying... your income goes way up and with that income comes a lot of other opportunities (including skill injectors these days). Think of the period I'm talking about as that time to get to being able to afford and successfully fly a ship capable of level 4's without having skill injectors. I'm thinking that shortening the time it takes to get to that point would be a positive on retention. |
Salvos Rhoska
2691
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 20:55:58 -
[643] - Quote
EVE takes time. A lot of it.
Depending on what you are doing, as a new player it can be pretty grim looking at your tiny SP pool, small profits and constant "i have no goddam idea what is going on" situation.
For that alone, I recommend new players join player corps asap. I didnt, but Im stubborn to a fault and hardly an example.
Things start getting much better once new players start figuring things out and have some SP to spread around. Or, fly together with others to enable them to participate in content otherwise outside their reach.
By 3-6months they start to have some real options and basic understanding.
Just as with constantly preaching the Golden Rules, we should constantly preach that EVE learning curve is steep, and systemic progression veeeery slow. Alongside that, that there are things they can do, either by using their brains/creativity, or joining others.
If we can get them past the 3 month hump, I think they are set and hooked.
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Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
134
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 21:25:59 -
[644] - Quote
Scialt wrote:I think there's a middle ground between "instant end-game" and lessening the grind to get to a point of skills/isk that feels like you're able to access most of EVE. CCP took a step toward doing that by getting rid of the learning skills. Perhaps another step could be that if you're Omega, you get 5X the sp when training until you hit 5 million SP (or some other smaller multiplier if needed).
I came up through mission running as an isk making mechanism... but the rewards from missions pretty much suck until you get to lvl 4. Once you get to the point you can run those without dying... your income goes way up and with that income comes a lot of other opportunities (including skill injectors these days). Think of the period I'm talking about as that time to get to being able to afford and successfully fly a ship capable of level 4's without having skill injectors. I'm thinking that shortening the time it takes to get to that point would be a positive on retention.
There's a big difference between having the skills to fly something and having the experience to use it effectively. I still remember my first couple of months when I skill injected myself into a VNI and then went off to lowsec to rat. I think I lasted all of 30 minutes before I got blown up by another player. My skills were fine but I didn't have the experience and understanding to do that successfully. That's like giving a new driver a Porsche when he needs to be learning in a Honda. What I've learned over the past year is that experience trumps skills every time. And there is no shortcut to experience.
Also, there's never been a time when I've been twiddling my thumbs waiting for skill training to complete. There is ALWAYS something I'm capable of doing that's new and interesting. And those things prepare me for other activities I can do later when I better skills.
What needs to improve is the on-boarding of new players into the existing game structure. And that's exactly what CCP is focusing on now. |
Salvos Rhoska
2691
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 22:10:52 -
[645] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:I still remember my first couple of months when I skill injected myself into a VNI and then went off to lowsec to rat. I think I lasted all of 30 minutes before I got blown up by another player.
You used skill injectors in your first couple months to get into a VNI? :D
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Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
135
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 22:51:11 -
[646] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Zarek Kree wrote:I still remember my first couple of months when I skill injected myself into a VNI and then went off to lowsec to rat. I think I lasted all of 30 minutes before I got blown up by another player. You used skill injectors in your first couple months to get into a VNI? :D Zarek Kree wrote:What needs to improve is the on-boarding of new players into the existing game structure. And that's exactly what CCP is focusing on now. So cos you bought yourself into a VNI with injectors and got blown up, CCP should fast-track players even quicker than when you failed to P2W into existing game structures to this result?
I'm arguing no such thing. If you actually bothered to READ what I wrote, you'd see that I AGREE WITH YOU (yeah, I'm as shocked as you are). I was pretty clear that I DON'T think people should be able to fast-track into skills they aren't ready for. On-boarding is the process by which you inculcate new people - which is exactly what the new NPE system is. Now take some deep breaths, slow down and read what people write before responding with nonsense. |
Marika Sunji
Dark-Rising Wrecking Machine.
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 10:07:11 -
[647] - Quote
Scialt wrote:lessening the grind to get to a point of skills/isk that feels like you're able to access most of EVE
If you're a new player without a crippling injector addiction, you can forget all about capital ships and their existence for a year or so. Which is as it should be, they are a goal, something to strive for. With caps out of the way, as long as you focus on a single race, you can train into most of decently fit (meta4 weapons) ships, with the exception of certain highly specialized platforms (HICs, BLOPS), within about half a year from the start of the game. Sure, you will not excel at them, but additional dictor, logi, recon can turn the tides of battle, and certainly would provide you with access to most parts of EVE. |
Salvos Rhoska
2692
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 10:07:15 -
[648] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Now take some deep breaths, slow down and read what people write before responding with nonsense.
Zarek Kree wrote:What needs to improve is the on-boarding of new players into the existing game structure. And that's exactly what CCP is focusing on now.
Explain the above.
What do you mean by "on-boarding new players into the existing game structure"? How is that to be improved? How is CCP focusing on that now?
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
435
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 10:24:56 -
[649] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go.
^ That.
Low sec used to be the place for fun small gang brawl. Now everyone drops titans and faxes on frigates.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Clockwork Robot
science and trade institute Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 11:15:29 -
[650] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go.
^ That. Low sec used to be the place for fun small gang brawl. Now everyone drops titans and faxes on frigates.
Granted I speak from zero null-sec experience here, but I highly doubt there was ever a time when "overwhelming force or avoid" was not the absolute unbreakable doctrine for each and every cubic inch of EvE. Ganker or Miner, Industrialist or Soverign-grinder... If the advantage wasn't yours, you'd bail.
Romantacizing something that never was just sets unrealistic hopes/expectarions. |
|
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
435
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 11:23:18 -
[651] - Quote
Clockwork Robot wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go.
^ That. Low sec used to be the place for fun small gang brawl. Now everyone drops titans and faxes on frigates. Granted I speak from zero null-sec experience here, but I highly doubt there was ever a time when "overwhelming force or avoid" was not the absolute unbreakable doctrine for each and every cubic inch of EvE. Ganker or Miner, Industrialist or Soverign-grinder... If the advantage wasn't yours, you'd bail. Romantacizing something that never was just sets unrealistic hopes/expectarions.
I'm not talking about picking fights or about fairness, blops were common before in ls. I'm talking about the perspectives available for new players. Nobody likes being used as a meat shield of cannon fodder but supers are something outside of the rock paper scissors philosophy subcaps submit to.
The only counter for supers are supers. Nothing atainable for a new bro.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 11:46:20 -
[652] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:
The only counter for supers are supers. Nothing attainable for a new bro.
What do you mean? any new player can buy subscriptions for multiple accounts, a few dozen PLEX, buy advanced characters for those accounts, and then have supers to counter supers.
There's nothing preventing a newbro from defending himself from those tactics.
Oh, and before anyone shouts "OMG IT'S P2W", a few hours of grind can provide enough PLEX to fund all that ^^
"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW
|
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
436
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 11:48:55 -
[653] - Quote
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:
The only counter for supers are supers. Nothing attainable for a new bro.
What do you mean? any new player can buy subscriptions for multiple accounts, a few dozen PLEX, buy advanced characters for those accounts, and then have supers to counter supers. There's nothing preventing a newbro from defending himself from those tactics. Oh, and before anyone shouts "OMG IT'S P2W", a few hours of grind can provide enough PLEX to fund all that ^^
Ha ha ha!
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Keno Skir
1472
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 11:56:52 -
[654] - Quote
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:
The only counter for supers are supers. Nothing attainable for a new bro.
What do you mean? any new player can buy subscriptions for multiple accounts, a few dozen PLEX, buy advanced characters for those accounts, and then have supers to counter supers. There's nothing preventing a newbro from defending himself from those tactics. Oh, and before anyone shouts "OMG IT'S P2W", a few hours of grind can provide enough PLEX to fund all that ^^
You have no idea what you're talking about.
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Martin Solo
Mercenary Coalition Training Academy Mercenary Academy
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 11:58:29 -
[655] - Quote
Hello there good ppl of Eve..
Im not sure if my input here is any good, but least i can give my pov..
I am one of the new bros, that recently joined the game..
My history in gaming started out as a fps gamer, but the last 10 years have mainly been focused around mmo's, mainly wow..
The reason ive started playing eve, has nothing to do with the alpha state, i just wanted to try it out (way to late ive realised since its fk epic)
My first experience with eve, least the 2 first days, were alot of WTF am i doing?!.. The game for a new player is some cases so overwhelming (least with no network) that i was close to quitting..
But why am i still here then ?
As a veteran mmo player (10 years of wow) i could see what i was getting into.. The bigger the struggle, the bigger the reward..
After ratting around for 2 weeks, getting sniped a few times in lowsec, i finally felt like i was ready to join a corp (had some basic knowledge, so i wouldent be that mutch of a pain to train, and i was hoping to find safety in numbers, and stuff to do with others.. This might come down to the corp i joined, but joining a corp, gave me nothing of what i was looking for.. The game seems a bit infested with the whole "spy" thing.. Even though i got a warm welcome, i felt even more isolated.. I was told to "go do solo pvp"... Yet i joined the corp, realising that the economy and skills i have in the game atm, would make me more into cannon fodder, then engage in real pvp.
I was looking for ppl to do missions with, maby even (sorry for saying it) even mine with ppl.. The whole idea of doing stuff as a team was the driving force for me, and atm its a bit shattered..
Anyways..
I instantly realised that the alpha state, is bullshit, least if you wana play the game for real.. The only problem i see with the alpha state, is thats it considdered a way that you can actually play the game. (imo its not, but its a great way to give a ppl a chance to try it out (and realising as alpha that you need omega)
My only input is.. (and as new as i am, i realise that im prob wrong) but..
Instead of having alpha as it is, i would limit it to maby 1 month of free gametime, with no limits.. Once the month is over, the account gets frozen, and you can only play once you upgraded to omega.. (so it dosent end up as an alt account that either farm's, or ganks (or whatever exploits there are).
1 month to figure out, if eve is your game.
Im a little bit conserned, since ive played wow, and we all know how that turned out.. It went from one of the most grindy awsome games, to one of the most ********. unrewarding and rotten games ive seen..
What wow did wrong, was catering to mouthbreathers.. Instead of being proud of their creation, they slowly tried morphing it into a game, even the most unintilligent players could comprehend, i guess in an attempt to get more subs (failed misserably)
As i see it, Eve if complicated as fk, and im loving it.. I love the whole experience of being clueless newbro every 5 minuttes, and putting in some work to later have a big "AHA" moment..
Reading my post, i admint it makes little sence so
Im new to eve, but im not here because of the alpha state, im here because of
1 # Scott Manlys videos on the fountain wars on youtube 2 # Eve fanfest videos on youtube 3 # I want to be part of a team, and do stuff as a team. 4 # i want a fkn challenge and not a baby game like wow.
(english is my 3rd language, so sry for making you all blind with my exellent grammar) :D
Hope my input is usefull in some shape or form.. o7 |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
436
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:06:09 -
[656] - Quote
Martin Solo wrote:
Hello there good ppl of Eve..
Im not sure if my input here is any good, but least i can give my pov..
I am one of the new bros, that recently joined the game..
My history in gaming started out as a fps gamer, but the last 10 years have mainly been focused around mmo's, mainly wow..
The reason ive started playing eve, has nothing to do with the alpha state, i just wanted to try it out (way to late ive realised since its fk epic)
My first experience with eve, least the 2 first days, were alot of WTF am i doing?!.. The game for a new player is some cases so overwhelming (least with no network) that i was close to quitting..
But why am i still here then ?
As a veteran mmo player (10 years of wow) i could see what i was getting into.. The bigger the struggle, the bigger the reward..
After ratting around for 2 weeks, getting sniped a few times in lowsec, i finally felt like i was ready to join a corp (had some basic knowledge, so i wouldent be that mutch of a pain to train, and i was hoping to find safety in numbers, and stuff to do with others.. This might come down to the corp i joined, but joining a corp, gave me nothing of what i was looking for.. The game seems a bit infested with the whole "spy" thing.. Even though i got a warm welcome, i felt even more isolated.. I was told to "go do solo pvp"... Yet i joined the corp, realising that the economy and skills i have in the game atm, would make me more into cannon fodder, then engage in real pvp.
I was looking for ppl to do missions with, maby even (sorry for saying it) even mine with ppl.. The whole idea of doing stuff as a team was the driving force for me, and atm its a bit shattered..
Anyways..
I instantly realised that the alpha state, is bullshit, least if you wana play the game for real.. The only problem i see with the alpha state, is thats it considdered a way that you can actually play the game. (imo its not, but its a great way to give a ppl a chance to try it out (and realising as alpha that you need omega)
My only input is.. (and as new as i am, i realise that im prob wrong) but..
Instead of having alpha as it is, i would limit it to maby 1 month of free gametime, with no limits.. Once the month is over, the account gets frozen, and you can only play once you upgraded to omega.. (so it dosent end up as an alt account that either farm's, or ganks (or whatever exploits there are).
1 month to figure out, if eve is your game.
Im a little bit conserned, since ive played wow, and we all know how that turned out.. It went from one of the most grindy awsome games, to one of the most ********. unrewarding and rotten games ive seen..
What wow did wrong, was catering to mouthbreathers.. Instead of being proud of their creation, they slowly tried morphing it into a game, even the most unintilligent players could comprehend, i guess in an attempt to get more subs (failed isserably)
As i see it, Eve if complicated as fk, and im loving it.. I love the whole experience of being clueless newbro every 5 minuttes, and putting in some work to later have a big "AHA" moment..
Reading my post, i admint it makes little sence so
Im new to eve, but im not here because of the alpha state, im here because of
1 # Scott Manlys videos on the fountain wars on youtube 2 # Eve fanfest videos on youtube 3 # I want to be part of a team, and do stuff as a team. 4 # i want a fkn challenge and not a baby game like wow.
(english is my 3rd language, so sry for making you all blind with my exellent grammar) :D
Hope my input is usefull in some shape or form.. o7
You don't need to be in a player owned corp to do solo pvp. If you feel isolated change the corp, there are better corps, new player friendly, out there. Eve university, karma fleet, pandemic horde are the first to come to my mind.
The trial system was prior to alpha clone status and had some similar limitations regarding usable ships and skills.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Keno Skir
1472
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:15:54 -
[657] - Quote
Martin Solo wrote:Hello there good ppl of Eve..
Im not sure if my input here is any good, but least i can give my pov..
I am one of the new bros, that recently joined the game..
My history in gaming started out as a fps gamer, but the last 10 years have mainly been focused around mmo's, mainly wow..
The reason ive started playing eve, has nothing to do with the alpha state, i just wanted to try it out (way to late ive realised since its fk epic)
My first experience with eve, least the 2 first days, were alot of WTF am i doing?!.. The game for a new player is some cases so overwhelming (least with no network) that i was close to quitting..
But why am i still here then ?
As a veteran mmo player (10 years of wow) i could see what i was getting into.. The bigger the struggle, the bigger the reward..
After ratting around for 2 weeks, getting sniped a few times in lowsec, i finally felt like i was ready to join a corp (had some basic knowledge, so i wouldent be that mutch of a pain to train, and i was hoping to find safety in numbers, and stuff to do with others.. This might come down to the corp i joined, but joining a corp, gave me nothing of what i was looking for.. The game seems a bit infested with the whole "spy" thing.. Even though i got a warm welcome, i felt even more isolated.. I was told to "go do solo pvp"... Yet i joined the corp, realising that the economy and skills i have in the game atm, would make me more into cannon fodder, then engage in real pvp.
I was looking for ppl to do missions with, maby even (sorry for saying it) even mine with ppl.. The whole idea of doing stuff as a team was the driving force for me, and atm its a bit shattered..
Anyways..
I instantly realised that the alpha state, is bullshit, least if you wana play the game for real.. The only problem i see with the alpha state, is thats it considdered a way that you can actually play the game. (imo its not, but its a great way to give a ppl a chance to try it out (and realising as alpha that you need omega)
My only input is.. (and as new as i am, i realise that im prob wrong) but..
Instead of having alpha as it is, i would limit it to maby 1 month of free gametime, with no limits.. Once the month is over, the account gets frozen, and you can only play once you upgraded to omega.. (so it dosent end up as an alt account that either farm's, or ganks (or whatever exploits there are).
1 month to figure out, if eve is your game.
Im a little bit conserned, since ive played wow, and we all know how that turned out.. It went from one of the most grindy awsome games, to one of the most ********. unrewarding and rotten games ive seen..
What wow did wrong, was catering to mouthbreathers.. Instead of being proud of their creation, they slowly tried morphing it into a game, even the most unintilligent players could comprehend, i guess in an attempt to get more subs (failed misserably)
As i see it, Eve is complicated as fk, and im loving it.. I love the whole experience of being clueless newbro every 5 minuttes, and putting in some work to later have a big "AHA" moment..
Reading my post, i admint it makes little sence so
Im new to eve, but im not here because of the alpha state, im here because of
1 # Scott Manlys videos on the fountain wars on youtube 2 # Eve fanfest videos on youtube 3 # I want to be part of a team, and do stuff as a team. 4 # i want a fkn challenge and not a baby game like wow.
(english is my 3rd language, so sry for making you all blind with my exellent grammar) :D
Hope my input is usefull in some shape or form.. o7
Sounds like you "get it"
Come fly with us anytime, just get in touch
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
<Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
|
Martin Solo
Mercenary Coalition Training Academy Mercenary Academy
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:23:05 -
[658] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:
You don't need to be in a player owned corp to do solo pvp. If you feel isolated change the corp, there are better corps, new player friendly, out there. Eve university, karma fleet, pandemic horde are the first to come to my mind.
The trial system was prior to alpha clone status and had some similar limitations regarding usable ships and skills.
Damnit, im pretty sure my awsome grammer, created some confusion here..
Im not looking for solo pvp. In wow i was a healer (logi in eve) Im looking to do the same in eve if possible..
I want to establish my own economy, and not just be given "help".. I want to understand eve, and be a pillar in the corp im in..
I do really value your responce, since its dawning on me, that with the "needs" i got atm, im in a totally wrong corp.. Dont get me wrong, the corp is great and all, just not focused on what i am trying to find..
Thank you for your advice o7
|
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:30:13 -
[659] - Quote
Martin Solo wrote:1 month to figure out, if eve is your game. Dunno. That was the past model, and it successfully kept me away from the game I always wanted to try. It wasn't slightly appealing that I could taste an infamously harsh and complex title... while having a ticking clock signifying how much time I have left to decide.
I would have picked a lot more severely limited alpha state any day, if it meant I could learn the ropes and find my ways in my own pace.
And as others said... if you feel that what you are doing, or who you are doing it with is not fun / educational / profitable or whatever... move on.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
|
Martin Solo
Mercenary Coalition Training Academy Mercenary Academy
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:32:39 -
[660] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Sounds like you "get it" Come fly with us anytime, just get in touch
I might take you up on that offer one day...
Ill send you a request...
Thank you :)
|
|
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
437
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:39:50 -
[661] - Quote
Martin Solo wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:
You don't need to be in a player owned corp to do solo pvp. If you feel isolated change the corp, there are better corps, new player friendly, out there. Eve university, karma fleet, pandemic horde are the first to come to my mind.
The trial system was prior to alpha clone status and had some similar limitations regarding usable ships and skills.
Damnit, im pretty sure my awsome grammer, created some confusion here.. Im not looking for solo pvp. In wow i was a healer (logi in eve) Im looking to do the same in eve if possible.. I want to establish my own economy, and not just be given "help".. I want to understand eve, and be a pillar in the corp im in.. I do really value your responce, since its dawning on me, that with the "needs" i got atm, im in a totally wrong corp.. Dont get me wrong, the corp is great and all, just not focused on what i am trying to find.. Thank you for your advice o7
No confusion at all. If their response to your needs is "go solo!", especially to a character enthusiastic about doing logi, then you're definitely in a wrong corp.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Kathern Aurilen
227
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:51:29 -
[662] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:What is up with CODE?
Is it a charade or have they truly drank too much Kool-Aid?
They seem almost as convinced as those Apple guys. Maybe they should drink a lil more, ...
No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!
Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
|
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 12:58:46 -
[663] - Quote
Did we have too many Code-free pages already in a Code-unrelated thread? :]
Well, besides Mr Rhoska who's a walking advertisement.
And the OP.
Ahh well, never mind. Let's just all comply.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6370
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 18:05:25 -
[664] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:
The only counter for supers are supers. Nothing atainable for a new bro.
So what? I have never owned a super cap, never been in one, and frankly don't want too. They can become like a coffin, and every time you log in there is a ginormous target on you. Just about everyone would love to bag you super cap for their killboard.
And I have been in LS and NS quite a bit and can count on my fingers the number of times super capitals have dropped on us. It does happen, but this notion that it is rampant is nonsense. And that they are dropped specifically on new players is just laughable. This is like worrying about being struck by lightning.
And new players looking to get into supers? Really? Why not learn to fly other ships first before setting your sights on something like that.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6370
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 18:09:40 -
[665] - Quote
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:
The only counter for supers are supers. Nothing attainable for a new bro.
What do you mean? any new player can buy subscriptions for multiple accounts, a few dozen PLEX, buy advanced characters for those accounts, and then have supers to counter supers. There's nothing preventing a newbro from defending himself from those tactics. Oh, and before anyone shouts "OMG IT'S P2W", a few hours of grind can provide enough PLEX to fund all that ^^
You kinds stink at the use of sarcasmGǪ.
Or you could just make friends in game and kill that super with your buddies. It has been known to happen, somebody drops supers, then the supers are tackled, the bat phoning starts and then you have some dead supers. To keep them tackled youGÇÖll need things like dictors, which a relatively new player can skill into. And DPS, which again a relatively new player can skill into.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 18:26:44 -
[666] - Quote
"Make friends" / "trust no one"
This game is not P2W because everyone can grind a few hours to buy characters, PLEXes, and fund accounts
"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW
|
Hello Meow Kitty
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
24
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 18:38:38 -
[667] - Quote
I'll come back and tackle ships for you if I can fly a Titan. |
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 18:55:19 -
[668] - Quote
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:"Make friends" / "trust no one" I'm failing to see why would these two approaches to be mutually exclusive - even when you only face just one player.
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:This game is not P2W because everyone can grind a few hours to buy characters, PLEXes, and fund accounts I think you -vastly- overestimate new players. Or even people who play for a few years suboptimally (from an ISK grinding perspective). Or you just have a -very- different concept of what a 'few' hours is than most people I met.
Not that I'd call EvE P2W. Mainly for people here set their own goals. And unless someone's only goal is to fly a super, he won't 'win' even if he starts by buying a super pilot with a blingy ship. My guess is that he'd lose a lot more while learning basic stuff than who uses a Rifter for that.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6370
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 19:13:15 -
[669] - Quote
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:"Make friends" / "trust no one" I'm failing to see why would these two approaches to be mutually exclusive - even when you only face just one player. Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:This game is not P2W because everyone can grind a few hours to buy characters, PLEXes, and fund accounts I think you -vastly- overestimate new players. Or even people who play for a few years suboptimally (from an ISK grinding perspective). Or you just have a -very- different concept of what a 'few' hours is than most people I met. Not that I'd call EvE P2W. Mainly for people here set their own goals. And unless someone's only goal is to fly a super, he won't 'win' even if he starts by buying a super pilot with a blingy ship. My guess is that he'd lose a lot more while learning basic stuff than who uses a Rifter for that.
Naw, he is just butthurt the game is not how he'd like it. A nice warm comfy safe space where he isn't triggered.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Yebo Lakatosh
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 19:22:50 -
[670] - Quote
Ahh, I forgot that my High-Grade Irony Detection implant set was left in another head of mine.
They say Alpha clones are only for trying stuff. I say it's just the Hard Mode.
|
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
86
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 19:47:17 -
[671] - Quote
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:"Make friends" / "trust no one" I'm failing to see why would these two approaches to be mutually exclusive - even when you only face just one player. Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:This game is not P2W because everyone can grind a few hours to buy characters, PLEXes, and fund accounts I think you -vastly- overestimate new players. Or even people who play for a few years suboptimally (from an ISK grinding perspective). Or you just have a -very- different concept of what a 'few' hours is than most people I met. Not that I'd call EvE P2W. Mainly for people here set their own goals. And unless someone's only goal is to fly a super, he won't 'win' even if he starts by buying a super pilot with a blingy ship. My guess is that he'd lose a lot more while learning basic stuff than who uses a Rifter for that.
As a challenge... people who think it just takes a few hours to plex should go start a new toon on one of their accounts and without giving any isk from their other accounts see how long it takes to get their wallet to 1.2 billion isk. And keep in your mind that you already KNOW eve... it's not a new game for you. Just a new toon.
|
Marika Sunji
Dark-Rising Wrecking Machine.
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 20:31:41 -
[672] - Quote
Scialt wrote: As a challenge... people who think it just takes a few hours to plex should go start a new toon on one of their accounts and without giving any isk from their other accounts see how long it takes to get their wallet to 1.2 billion isk. And keep in your mind that you already KNOW eve... it's not a new game for you. Just a new toon.
You can make 100m/h grinding incursions in peasant-fit hyperion that takes all of 3 weeks to skill into from clear toon. You can make the required 300m capital for the BS by doing exploration for about 10h or so, then you can plex your account with 10 hours of playtime. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
550
|
Posted - 2017.04.07 22:57:09 -
[673] - Quote
Marika Sunji wrote:Scialt wrote: As a challenge... people who think it just takes a few hours to plex should go start a new toon on one of their accounts and without giving any isk from their other accounts see how long it takes to get their wallet to 1.2 billion isk. And keep in your mind that you already KNOW eve... it's not a new game for you. Just a new toon.
You can make 100m/h grinding incursions in peasant-fit hyperion that takes all of 3 weeks to skill into from clear toon. You can make the required 300m capital for the BS by doing exploration for about 10h or so, then you can plex your account with 10 hours of playtime.
ROFL... stop your damn lying |
Marika Sunji
Dark-Rising Wrecking Machine.
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 00:14:19 -
[674] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:Marika Sunji wrote:Scialt wrote: As a challenge... people who think it just takes a few hours to plex should go start a new toon on one of their accounts and without giving any isk from their other accounts see how long it takes to get their wallet to 1.2 billion isk. And keep in your mind that you already KNOW eve... it's not a new game for you. Just a new toon.
You can make 100m/h grinding incursions in peasant-fit hyperion that takes all of 3 weeks to skill into from clear toon. You can make the required 300m capital for the BS by doing exploration for about 10h or so, then you can plex your account with 10 hours of playtime. ROFL... stop your damn lying
But... but I literally did what I said you can do - started as explorer, skilled into BS, bought a cheap nightmare (pew pew ftw) and made a plex in 10 hours or so (could have been 11, not totally certain). |
Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
8
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 00:59:39 -
[675] - Quote
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:
The only counter for supers are supers. Nothing attainable for a new bro.
What do you mean? any new player can buy subscriptions for multiple accounts, a few dozen PLEX, buy advanced characters for those accounts, and then have supers to counter supers. There's nothing preventing a newbro from defending himself from those tactics. Oh, and before anyone shouts "OMG IT'S P2W", a few hours of grind can provide enough PLEX to fund all that ^^ we got a newbro in our corp that did this
first he lacked the experiences
second when we dropped carrier on their carrier they counter-dropped 4 more carriers
there is really not much you can do as new player/corp in lowsec atm, thats why we moved into null where we have to pay xxx bils to be allowed to be there... doesn't like that fact either but what can we do as new corp, there is no way we can take a piece of a null for ourselves |
Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
8
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 01:06:50 -
[676] - Quote
Marika Sunji wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:Marika Sunji wrote:Scialt wrote: As a challenge... people who think it just takes a few hours to plex should go start a new toon on one of their accounts and without giving any isk from their other accounts see how long it takes to get their wallet to 1.2 billion isk. And keep in your mind that you already KNOW eve... it's not a new game for you. Just a new toon.
You can make 100m/h grinding incursions in peasant-fit hyperion that takes all of 3 weeks to skill into from clear toon. You can make the required 300m capital for the BS by doing exploration for about 10h or so, then you can plex your account with 10 hours of playtime. ROFL... stop your damn lying But... but I literally did what I said you can do - started as explorer, skilled into BS, bought a cheap nightmare (pew pew ftw) and made a plex in 10 hours or so (could have been 11, not totally certain). 300 mil by exploration in 10 hours? wh only which needs better skills to successfully hack all caches which needs quite a lot of time skilling again and thats only assuming you will not be ambushed and you will have luck finding player-less wh with lot of relic sites which happens rarely... in lowsec I was able to make 150mil in around that time and that was empty region with lot of sites, certainly doable to grind enough money for incursion BS by exploration but it is not as easy and fast as you make it to be
and all of this assume you will sub first, as you cant fly anything useable in incursions on alpha (and also making relic/data in whs is really pointless on alpha with 3points in the hacking/archeology only) for which I am not sure was meant it by OP |
Marika Sunji
Dark-Rising Wrecking Machine.
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 01:34:49 -
[677] - Quote
Vokan Narkar wrote:Marika Sunji wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:Marika Sunji wrote:Scialt wrote: As a challenge... people who think it just takes a few hours to plex should go start a new toon on one of their accounts and without giving any isk from their other accounts see how long it takes to get their wallet to 1.2 billion isk. And keep in your mind that you already KNOW eve... it's not a new game for you. Just a new toon.
You can make 100m/h grinding incursions in peasant-fit hyperion that takes all of 3 weeks to skill into from clear toon. You can make the required 300m capital for the BS by doing exploration for about 10h or so, then you can plex your account with 10 hours of playtime. ROFL... stop your damn lying But... but I literally did what I said you can do - started as explorer, skilled into BS, bought a cheap nightmare (pew pew ftw) and made a plex in 10 hours or so (could have been 11, not totally certain). 300 mil by exploration in 10 hours? wh only which needs better skills to successfully hack all caches which needs quite a lot of time skilling again and thats only assuming you will not be ambushed and you will have luck finding player-less wh with lot of relic sites which happens rarely... in lowsec I was able to make 150mil in around that time and that was empty region with lot of sites, certainly doable to grind enough money for incursion BS by exploration but it is not as easy and fast as you make it to be and all of this assume you will sub first, as you cant fly anything useable in incursions on alpha (and also making relic/data in whs is really pointless on alpha with 3points in the hacking/archeology only) for which I am not sure was meant it by OP
Lol what? I can hack every can I encounter with Archaeology III just fine. Explorer ganks aren't that common as long as you dont explore 1 jump from Jita. You skip right over data sites (they are worthless), and focus on relics. A relic site on average (when I ran them) provided around 20m ISK. And yes, you would have to sub, but well, nothing ventured and so on. There are alpha incursion communities, but you'd have to work significantly harder to earn your plex without omega. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
87
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 13:54:25 -
[678] - Quote
Marika Sunji wrote:Vokan Narkar wrote:Marika Sunji wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:Marika Sunji wrote:
You can make 100m/h grinding incursions in peasant-fit hyperion that takes all of 3 weeks to skill into from clear toon. You can make the required 300m capital for the BS by doing exploration for about 10h or so, then you can plex your account with 10 hours of playtime.
ROFL... stop your damn lying But... but I literally did what I said you can do - started as explorer, skilled into BS, bought a cheap nightmare (pew pew ftw) and made a plex in 10 hours or so (could have been 11, not totally certain). 300 mil by exploration in 10 hours? wh only which needs better skills to successfully hack all caches which needs quite a lot of time skilling again and thats only assuming you will not be ambushed and you will have luck finding player-less wh with lot of relic sites which happens rarely... in lowsec I was able to make 150mil in around that time and that was empty region with lot of sites, certainly doable to grind enough money for incursion BS by exploration but it is not as easy and fast as you make it to be and all of this assume you will sub first, as you cant fly anything useable in incursions on alpha (and also making relic/data in whs is really pointless on alpha with 3points in the hacking/archeology only) for which I am not sure was meant it by OP Lol what? I can hack every can I encounter with Archaeology III just fine. Explorer ganks aren't that common as long as you dont explore 1 jump from Jita. You skip right over data sites (they are worthless), and focus on relics. A relic site on average (when I ran them) provided around 20m ISK. And yes, you would have to sub, but well, nothing ventured and so on. There are alpha incursion communities, but you'd have to work significantly harder to earn your plex without omega.
So... you seriously (without getting isk from another account)... got isk for skillbooks... then got 350 million for a nightmare plus whatever you needed for whatever fit you use... then got in an incursion group and earned a further 1.2 billion isk... in 11 hours of game time?
Look... I can create an account and plex it pretty easily as well... just by sending enough isk for 3 skill injectors and skillbooks/setup costs for PI. But I can do that immediately because I have another account with enough isk to jump start it. I could probably do it through station trading as well given a big enough stake from my main.
But if I just started a new account with no isk transfer from my existing accounts.... where you leave the NPE with a million isk or less (can't remember) and after you complete the career agents (which takes a while) you only have about 10 million isk and an assortment of ships... that would take some time. If I paid for a month I could PROBABLY get there if I played 4 hours a day... but to suggest that a new player could get there with just a "few hours of grinding" is simply misleading. I think for most players it takes between 6 months and a year before they figure stuff out enough to start bringing in large enough quantities of isk to easily plex each month without a horrid grind. |
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
146
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 14:55:05 -
[679] - Quote
Scialt wrote:So... you seriously (without getting isk from another account)... got isk for skillbooks... then got 350 million for a nightmare plus whatever you needed for whatever fit you use... then got in an incursion group and earned a further 1.2 billion isk... in 11 hours of game time?
Look... I can create an account and plex it pretty easily as well... just by sending enough isk for 3 skill injectors and skillbooks/setup costs for PI. But I can do that immediately because I have another account with enough isk to jump start it. I could probably do it through station trading as well given a big enough stake from my main.
But if I just started a new account with no isk transfer from my existing accounts.... where you leave the NPE with a million isk or less (can't remember) and after you complete the career agents (which takes a while) you only have about 10 million isk and an assortment of ships... that would take some time. If I paid for a month I could PROBABLY get there if I played 4 hours a day... but to suggest that a new player could get there with just a "few hours of grinding" is simply misleading. I think for most players it takes between 6 months and a year before they figure stuff out enough to start bringing in large enough quantities of isk to easily plex each month without a horrid grind.
Concur. I've been fairly dedicated since starting EVE about a year ago, but I only began consistently plexing my account a few months ago. Knowledge and experience is at least as important as the SP in that regard. If I was to start over tomorrow, I could probably get there in a few months - but only because I have some idea about what I'm doing now. Learning the game and figuring out what you enjoy doing takes far more time than gaining the necessary skills. |
Marika Sunji
Dark-Rising Wrecking Machine.
4
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 15:04:13 -
[680] - Quote
Scialt wrote: So... you seriously (without getting isk from another account)... got isk for skillbooks... then got 350 million for a nightmare plus whatever you needed for whatever fit you use... then got in an incursion group and earned a further 1.2 billion isk... in 11 hours of game time?
No, you misunderstood or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I farmed the ~1b (price from last year) for plex in 10h upon joining the incursion community. It took me about a month to find my feet in-game and gather enough isk via exploration to get myself a decently fit nightmare, but I didn't sign up for incursions until much later (which I regret, solo wormhole ratting with low sp pays ****). You can do it in significantly shorter time though. The minimal train for an entry-level incursion ship is about 2-3 weeks from bare alpha start. It's more than enough time to earn 400m grinding relic sites in wormholes. |
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Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
332
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 05:58:50 -
[681] - Quote
Might be time to put this thread out of it's misery. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
35020
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 06:00:21 -
[682] - Quote
unless someone posts in it still
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
35020
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 06:01:08 -
[683] - Quote
jk I agree put it out of it is misery
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Lost Obsession
1656
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 07:50:21 -
[684] - Quote
No.
TunDraGon is recruiting!
"Also, your boobs [:o] " -á
CCP Eterne, 2012
"When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
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Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
334
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 09:22:25 -
[685] - Quote
It needs to close, far better threads that stayed on topic have been locked sooner, For Justice! and the respect for those locked to soon.......you guys really need a beer or a wine emoji. |
Salvos Rhoska
2700
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 09:38:57 -
[686] - Quote
Just let it roll, or stop posting in it to bump it.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
|
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
334
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 20:28:18 -
[687] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Just let it roll, or stop posting in it to bump it.
You sound very important, akin to someone who sits cross legged in the wilderness surrounded by a pygmy tribe. Thanks for the input but I'll pass and bump again to it's possible demise.
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Carnivorous Swarm
New Eden Department of Sanitation
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 15:53:43 -
[688] - Quote
Jax Bederen wrote: You sound very important, akin to someone who sits cross legged in the wilderness surrounded by a pygmy tribe.
Just sayin', it's pretty hard to log into the forums from places where there's pygmy tribes.
You should give them credit where credit's due. |
Keno Skir
1534
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 17:30:01 -
[689] - Quote
Carnivorous Swarm wrote:Jax Bederen wrote: You sound very important, akin to someone who sits cross legged in the wilderness surrounded by a pygmy tribe.
Just sayin', it's pretty hard to log into the forums from places where there's pygmy tribes. You should give them credit where credit's due.
U reckon they have to stack on top of each other to get reception at the top? Bet there's no 4G in the rain forest.
Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-
250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
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Kixx
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 21:58:32 -
[690] - Quote
I cant help it this thread made me laugh at so many different levels.
First people from Null saying Hi-sec is a some sort of "problem" because Null is becoming a ghost town while the majority of players are clearly in Hi-sec and do not wish to leave. Just to put this in perspective its like saying hey my car is broken, lets take parts from the brakes to fix it, sure it might work, until you really need to stop one day.
EvE has many problems, many of them self made, like ti-di which helps encourage the people to just stall the fight until help arrives by just piling on into the system. Sure I understand there is some worldwide problem with consistent latency but to make an exploitable tactic that every large alliance will use instead sure didn't help the game. The problem is this seems to be a reoccurring theme when you start to analyze the Null sec area in particular, otherwise you would be able to say wormhole space is dying also, which it isn't, but share most of the same meta as Null.
EvEs problem IS NULL, not lo sec and not hi sec and not wormhole space. You need to address where the largest loss of players is happening and look deeper there, not cannibalize the rest of the game because those players are crying. Hell I am pretty sure I heard CCP Guard say and I quote "Hi sec players make a majority of EvE". You don't destroy what is working to appease a group that clearly isn't working.
Between the ti di which clearly works on the side of big alliances and the oversized allowance for players per alliance, you have a perfect mixture of failure. Then add in the large amount of time it takes to be successful in null and every hill you put in the players way becomes a mountain.
You cant look at wormhole space thriving and Null sec dying and say that's expected. Obviously you have a null sec problem and the longer you ignore it the worse its going to be for everyone overall.
Ignore away but you have 3 months until Albion releases, and if you cant already see a sizable chunk of pvprs moving to there because "its not a space game", then you deserve the continued fate of where this train is obviously going.
Or to put it into perspective, its like going to a system because you saw a ton of ships killed in the last hour, then finding out they were all rookie ships and you wish you just hadn't even bothered to play that day. |
|
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
1109
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 22:04:03 -
[691] - Quote
Ti-di isn't just about latency - with the amount of data required when fights get that big and server IO and other hardware/software performance bottlenecks it is pretty much required for reliable, albeit delayed, gameplay - the alternative is either the old crashing and unreliability or waiting for another couple of generations of backend hardware/software progress. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6413
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 22:12:55 -
[692] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Ti-di isn't just about latency - with the amount of data required when fights get that big and server IO and other hardware/software performance bottlenecks it is pretty much required for reliable, albeit delayed, gameplay - the alternative is either the old crashing and unreliability or waiting for another couple of generations of backend hardware/software progress.
Yup. You can have ti-di where stuff works...but slowly, or you can have a black screen.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Jonas Antollare
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2017.04.20 11:00:09 -
[693] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Rroff wrote:Ti-di isn't just about latency - with the amount of data required when fights get that big and server IO and other hardware/software performance bottlenecks it is pretty much required for reliable, albeit delayed, gameplay - the alternative is either the old crashing and unreliability or waiting for another couple of generations of backend hardware/software progress. Yup. You can have ti-di where stuff works...but slowly, or you can have a black screen.
oh god another with his head in the sand. tidi is terrible. its a made up name for lag. whats the difference between black screen and a screen where nothing is moving. whats great about seeing everything in super slow mo and not even knowing if your already dead 20 mins ago whilst youre still f1 bashing. its more frustrating at least with a black screen youre put out of your misery quicker than lasting the whole painful death. which in fact you didnt and died ages ago yet you wouldnt know...
tidi was an excuse to stop people constantly bashing ccp about lag. you suckers fell for it tidi is worse now even with TQ III |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
443
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Posted - 2017.04.20 11:30:43 -
[694] - Quote
Jax Bederen wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Just let it roll, or stop posting in it to bump it. You sound very important, akin to someone who sits cross legged in the wilderness surrounded by a pygmy tribe.
That made my day!
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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