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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.01 09:33:00 -
[1]
Really...
3 dire nullifiers can permajam w/o any problems. Can beat em with FOF missiles or drones but when im flying amarr ships... i cant do anything. Usually manage to get 10 seconds w/o jam between cycles that is not enough to even remove shields of the NPC.
And today when i saw 9 dire nullifiers... i really wasnt too happy abt it.
Can we get jamming as pre-kali? It did **** off ppl, it was problematic but it wasn't PERMANENT.
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Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.01 10:34:00 -
[2]
I'd rather have they change it so the ships' stats matter. Make it so NPC jamming works just like PC jamming.
Then we can counter them with ECCM. I can find a slot for it.
Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
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Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.01 11:21:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 01/05/2007 11:19:35 Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 01/05/2007 11:18:05
Originally by: Deva Blackfire 3 dire nullifiers can permajam w/o any problems. Can beat em with FOF missiles or drones but when im flying amarr ships... i cant do anything. Usually manage to get 10 seconds w/o jam between cycles that is not enough to even remove shields of the NPC.
QFT
I just decided not to accept the Assault anymore. Yet another addition into the 'sucky list'
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ShinChan
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Posted - 2007.05.01 11:55:00 -
[4]
/signed
and I do missions with amarr, so I get mostly sansha/bloods. But yesterday I got the Pirate Slaughter or something like this, with Guristas inside. I has to kill the npc's using drones, bcs the target didn't last enough to use lasers on last stage with dire XXX guristas on it. Took me like an hour or more to finish this missions when my average time to complete lvl 4 mission is 15 minutes.
I feel sorry for the people who has to fight against guristas all the time.
Is there any ETA on a fix for the permajamming?
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Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.05.01 12:21:00 -
[5]
I must have missed the patch where Amarr got drone access removed. :P
Just because something now presents a challenge doesn't mean it should be watered down, find a solution rather than bewailing for a nerf.
/not signed |
Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.01 12:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hectaire Glade I must have missed the patch where Amarr got drone access removed. :P
Just because something now presents a challenge doesn't mean it should be watered down, find a solution rather than bewailing for a nerf.
/not signed
Pike that!
Obviously you've never faced a situation where you have a couple of NPCs jammin' your sorry behind none-stop.
Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
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Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.01 12:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hectaire Glade I must have missed the patch where Amarr got drone access removed. :P
Just because something now presents a challenge doesn't mean it should be watered down, find a solution rather than bewailing for a nerf.
/not signed
No way I can say the process of waiting for the jam to fail is 'a challenge'
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.05.01 13:15:00 -
[8]
Even though everyone who uses lasers against guristas is doing something seriously wrong in the first place, I have to agree that the jamming and also the other EW effects from NPCs are WAY out of hand. And no they are not a challenge, they are a pure annoyance (Except the Blood Raider XL Nosferatus, those are neither challenging nor annoying but plain broken). The EW can be bypassed, but bypassing it involves a lot of boredom, and in the end it creates just more missions that go to the 'decline this' heap, in turn making the whole affair of mission running even more repetitive and thus boring.
I really wish some dev would condescend to comment on the totally overpowered EW effects of the NPCs and whether we might see a moderation to them anytime soon or whether it is their intent to make missions even MORE boring?
Making missions more like PvP is all fine and dandy, but the EW implementation is just wrong. Normally it takes like 5 NPCs to simulate the effect of one player ship (hence the oodles and oodles of ships in missions). And without changing this, you give single NPCs the EW power of single player ships?
If anything this seems like 'Less but more powerful NPCs', which is another thing that really needs to be done to missions. It seems though that you did the 'more powerful' part while neglecting the 'less' part.
Giving every aggro group one or two EW ships would be okay I guess if the effects were not stupidly overpowered. But having 6 jamming/dampening/disprupting ships in a group of 12 is just slightly over the top. Especially considering the high EW strength of NPCs.
Yes this would require going over every mission and changing spawn composition, but so what, thats what you get paid for. What you did now seems to have been just slapping EW effects onto some randomly selected NPCs without looking at the missions at all. "Oh now this spawn consists of 12 ships that all nos the target. Too bad, but what do we care, never even noticed since we only do missions in passive tanked Rattlesnakes..."
Not to mention that besides the trigger issues this is yet another stealth boost for missile boats by nerfing the use of turrets in missions much more than the use of missiles. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.01 13:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Hectaire Glade I must have missed the patch where Amarr got drone access removed. :P
Just because something now presents a challenge doesn't mean it should be watered down, find a solution rather than bewailing for a nerf.
/not signed
Sure, do use drones. Wonder if 5x hornet t2 can kill dire guristas nullifier. Interfacing 4, specialisation 4, combat drone op 4 - takes forever (dunno never killed one myself with small drones i just left mission).
Hint: dire cruisers are almost like HACs and are pretty tough.
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Kery Nysell
Caldari Nysell Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.05.01 13:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hectaire Glade I must have missed the patch where Amarr got drone access removed. :P
Just because something now presents a challenge doesn't mean it should be watered down, find a solution rather than bewailing for a nerf.
/not signed
You missed the point by a wide margin ... those missions are not more challenging, but more boring, and using drones without a lock is a bad solution at best since those things tend to attack five different targets (with no hope of killing even one of the targets) when left without direct orders (and even with orders, they sometimes switch targets during their flight to the first target).
I wish there was the simple solution of fitting an ECCM module, but NPCs don't use the formula that we players use for jamming, they have a flat percentage chance of jamming each cycle ... even with 2 ECCMs fitted on my Dominix (wrong sensor type for the Guristas) I was perma-jammed for almost 10 minutes straigth in my last mission against jammers ... my tank held, but I could do nothing except watch my drones scratch the paint of 5 cruisers ... challenging ? Nope. Boring ? Hell yeah !
I don't want a nerf, just a balancing ... OR some NPC jamming modules for my ships ... gotta love that "100% jam for 20 cycles" when you're on the side using it ...
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Nimitz Alexander
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.01 14:26:00 -
[11]
jamming is very wierd now, some will jam alot, but most only once... then theres the 150 km jamming battleships
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Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2007.05.01 14:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Hectaire Glade I must have missed the patch where Amarr got drone access removed. :P
Just because something now presents a challenge doesn't mean it should be watered down, find a solution rather than bewailing for a nerf.
/not signed
Pike that!
Obviously you've never faced a situation where you have a couple of NPCs jammin' your sorry behind none-stop.
I have been jammed and i still think its fine the way it is. Makes it more challenging. Sure the mission took me 3 times longer than it use to but hey. Missions are suppost to be unpredict able and what not. However I also agree that ECCM are not working on NPC than that does need to be fixed.
Dynamic Endeavors is now Recuiting.!!
Contact me in game for deatails about the corp. Mostly a PvE corp, with Jump clones avaiale in Empire and 0.0. |
Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.01 14:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jet Collins I have been jammed and i still think its fine the way it is. Makes it more challenging. Sure the mission took me 3 times longer than it use to but hey. Missions are suppost to be unpredict able and what not. However I also agree that ECCM are not working on NPC than that does need to be fixed.
Challenge is nice.
Not being able to step up to it with a viable counter is frustrating.
Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
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Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2007.05.01 15:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Jet Collins I have been jammed and i still think its fine the way it is. Makes it more challenging. Sure the mission took me 3 times longer than it use to but hey. Missions are suppost to be unpredict able and what not. However I also agree that ECCM are not working on NPC than that does need to be fixed.
Challenge is nice.
Not being able to step up to it with a viable counter is frustrating.
As stated if ECCM is not working and other counters than that does need get fixed.
Dynamic Endeavors is now Recuiting.!!
Contact me in game for deatails about the corp. Mostly a PvE corp, with Jump clones avaiale in Empire and 0.0. |
Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Return
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Posted - 2007.05.01 15:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jet Collins
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Hectaire Glade I must have missed the patch where Amarr got drone access removed. :P
Just because something now presents a challenge doesn't mean it should be watered down, find a solution rather than bewailing for a nerf.
/not signed
Pike that!
Obviously you've never faced a situation where you have a couple of NPCs jammin' your sorry behind none-stop.
I have been jammed and i still think its fine the way it is. Makes it more challenging. Sure the mission took me 3 times longer than it use to but hey. Missions are suppost to be unpredict able and what not. However I also agree that ECCM are not working on NPC than that does need to be fixed.
Sitting with your thumb up your behind in a battleship, running your perma-tank while waiting for your drones to kill 6 Sansha Command Ships (high resists) is not challenging, it's just boring. Level 4 Sansha Blockade made me return to my Nightmare very fast after trying out the Abaddon when it got introduced.
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.01 15:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jet Collins
I have been jammed and i still think its fine the way it is. Makes it more challenging. Sure the mission took me 3 times longer than it use to but hey.
Um tell me which situation is more challenging:
1. my tank holds, i press f1-f8, go make some tea while FOF missiles kill everything
2. my tank holds, i release drones, go make some tea while drones kill everything
3. my tank holds, i CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK to get stupid lock which is broken 3 seconds later. I shot one time, lose lock. my tank STILL holds.
In all cases there is NO challenge at all but last situation = BORING
And longer? 2x longer - no complains. 10x longer... umm... sth is wrong here...
This is STILL a game not a work where you sit 8h per day to finish given task...
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Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2007.05.01 16:15:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Jet Collins on 01/05/2007 16:13:05 lol in responce to the last 2 posts.
One never flown a raven never will. 2 I don't even use a BS ;). 3. I run lvl 4 mission with multiple people if need be.
Stop crying. There are 10k people playing this game at one. If you can;t do it by yourself get some help. NPC only lock one targe sooo hmmm maybe someone to take our the jammers and your golden.
Dynamic Endeavors is now Recuiting.!!
Contact me in game for deatails about the corp. Mostly a PvE corp, with Jump clones avaiale in Empire and 0.0. |
Kery Nysell
Caldari Nysell Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.05.01 17:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jet Collins Edited by: Jet Collins on 01/05/2007 16:13:05 lol in responce to the last 2 posts.
One never flown a raven never will. 2 I don't even use a BS ;). 3. I run lvl 4 mission with multiple people if need be.
Stop crying. There are 10k people playing this game at one. If you can;t do it by yourself get some help. NPC only lock one targe sooo hmmm maybe someone to take our the jammers and your golden.
If we had a way to split the LPs and rewards, grouping might be the right idea ... as it stands now, level 1 to 4 missions are obvisously meant to be soloed.
And I won't go into the "trust problem" with the "get some help" thing ... I refuse to join a gang with someone I don't know, and my corpmates are not logged on at the same time as me ... not an option for me.
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Trishan
Minmatar Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.05.01 17:30:00 -
[19]
Doing The Assault right now and it is really Frustrating up to the point where yes, it's just another mission I won't be doing along with ones with trigger scrambler / webber frigs.
This is neither challenging nor entertaning nor fun in any way and, yes, I'm looking for fun. Where are my FoF projectiles? :P
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JamnOne
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:05:00 -
[20]
Hmmm, never thought about adding missions to a don't do list. I just look at what it takes to beat them.
As for jamming and drones being useless or not a viable solution. As soon as I get lock I tell the drones to engage target. I have had one serious issue, I forgot the mission but I couldn't lock enough to do any damage with or without drones. I asked in local if anybody had any ideas and someone actually offered to help. He flew in and tanked and I killed. Now I use an "alt" when I can't figure out how to defeat a mission in a timely manner to assist me.
I don't know what ship you are using when flying the Amarr ships but grab one with at least one launcher on it get far enough out from the Nullifiers and launch a volley of missiles and take them out first. That is something else I have done as well. Once they are gone - time to enjoy the mission.
On a side note for CCP: please do give us the ability to use ECCM equipment against NPC.
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Merak Thrawn
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:18:00 -
[21]
Completely agree. The amount of jamming and tracking disrupting on some missions aswell for turret users (yeah flame me for not training Caldari for missions)is just horrific.
/Signed
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.01 22:02:00 -
[22]
Same story with the Blockade on Serpentis. Perma-damped to 5km lock range by 10 of them. None enter that range and they damp even from 120km wich is to my knowledge none of ships in existence can do even with max skills. ---
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.05.01 23:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Merak Thrawn Completely agree. The amount of jamming and tracking disrupting on some missions aswell for turret users (yeah flame me for not training Caldari for missions)is just horrific.
/Signed
Tracking disrupters are definitely a problem as well. On the Sansha blockade, it's a lot of fun waiting for my 5 hammerheads to kill the disrupters. There's no possible counter... tracking computers are a joke against them.
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.05.02 00:37:00 -
[24]
Ehm... get your skills up? Well, what mission are we talking about? |
Nalar Marnith
Minmatar Tetranex Consolidated
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Posted - 2007.05.02 01:55:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Nalar Marnith on 02/05/2007 01:53:43 What would be nice is a few missions where you face ships that are of something close to a player standard. This'd need some fair AI tweaking obviously.
Ships that try warp out when damaged, if the mission objective warps out, you fail. In fact any mission where it's possible to fail short of simply not being able to finish in the alloted time frame.
Ships that tank like hell and have significant dps, that use EW effectively and use relevant tactics. Not trying to take anything away from good pvpers here, but a lot of it is fairly basic stuff and depends on your fit. Ask people how to fly/fit a vagabond effectively and you get pretty much the same answer.
How about some variety too? Why do certain rat types have to have the same ewar? I haven't met a pvp gang that ALL fit identical ewar (aside from scrams )!
On that point, how about some BS with webs or appropriate ewar for the ship?
If the point of ewar on these ships is to provide some similarity to pvp then I think missions need to be much more difficult in terms of tactics and fit. A player will fit a certain type of ship with a certain setup, in order to play to its strengths and mitigate the weaknesses.
Obviously npcs can never be as good as players, but I think they CAN be a lot better than they are.
Missions are not the be all and end all, but if they provide a mechanism to train people to pvp then it can only be good for everyone!
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.02 07:07:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Andrue on 02/05/2007 07:06:04 I did Guristas Extravaganza last night and only got jammed a couple of times in the early stages. The final stage saw me jammed quite a bit but that was because I was holding off killing the frigs in case they were triggers. It was a bit of a pain but no big deal.
As a result I can't support this campaign to nerf NPC jamming. It's a nuisance is all as far as I can tell.
My strategy against Guristas has always been to kill off the known jammers first:Nullifier; Assassin; Murderer; Killer; Terrorist.
BTW:I fly a Raven. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Ghola Bashar
Newbs R Us
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Posted - 2007.05.02 07:19:00 -
[27]
Problem I have with the kill everything with drones strategy is that on those kill a dozen NPCs to clear way for next dozen that warp in, the drones are the first thing they target, not me. I try to get droens back in, but from 40km out, I will send out 5 and get 4, or worse just 3, back into the drone bay so the new set of NPCs locks on me. Even if they warp in and my drones have returned to orbit me, the NPCs still go after the droens first. Make the priority for NPCs the player, not the drones.
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Kormorant
Gallente Oneirocritica Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.02 07:51:00 -
[28]
You have to ECCM for the jammming. Tracking enhancers and computers to help offset the tracking disruptors.... i.e. the standard PvE fit has to be combined with a PvP.
Adapt. Don't cry because you think it is too hard.
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.02 08:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kormorant You have to ECCM for the jammming. Tracking enhancers and computers to help offset the tracking disruptors.... i.e. the standard PvE fit has to be combined with a PvP.
Adapt. Don't cry because you think it is too hard.
You didnt get that? Read the thread before start looking at the reply button please.
People are saying that they are perma-ECMed or damped even if they fit countering mods. I have fitted 2 Sensor Boosters and still was damped to no-lock.
---
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.05.02 08:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kormorant You have to ECCM for the jammming. Tracking enhancers and computers to help offset the tracking disruptors.... i.e. the standard PvE fit has to be combined with a PvP.
Adapt. Don't cry because you think it is too hard.
Yeah, 15% optimal/30% tracking boost from each tracking mod is SO much help when you are disrupted by 3 sansha cruisers each dropping your optimal and tracking by 60%....
Sensor boosters are just as useless against NPC damps, as are ECCM against the jamming.
Please get a clue before posting your ganktardish 'adapt' drivel. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
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