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Professor JinMine
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
3
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Posted - 2017.03.17 06:47:07 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:Q: What will happen to existing market orders for PLEX when the feature launches? A: We will cancel all orders and repay fees, as usual when we make a major type conversion.
We should ask where that broker fee reimbursement ISK will come from. As I see it, CCP has two options here:
A) Pi*s off all Citadel owners by f*cking their wallets, or B) Duplicate and inject free ISK into the system (because Citadel broker fees are not removed from the game).
And how will CCP calculate the fees to be repaid?
1) Dig through the records for each standing order and pay back the actual fees accumulated => again, where would the ISK come from?
2) Calculate the fee at the time of change based on the applicable broker fee rate => so I could jack up my citadel's broker fee right before the downtime and everyone who placed PLEX order there receives free ISK? (or I could troll by setting the fee 0.0%) And again, where would the ISK come from?
3) 3% NPC station rate blanket repayment => again, free ISK for the people who placed PLEX orders with lower broker fee rates
I'm ok with the new miniPLEX thing, but I really hope CCP plans this thing thorough. |
Do Little
Virgin Plc Evictus.
903
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Posted - 2017.03.17 08:21:32 -
[2] - Quote
CCP can easily track every transaction on the market and write a script to reverse PLEX orders. Citadel market owners will have months of warning that the change is coming.
I think it would make more sense to replace the orders with orders for micro PLEX. Simply multiply the quantity and divide the unit price by 500. The script wouldn't be any more complicated and you eliminate the issue of reimbursing brokerage paid to Citadel owners. |
Professor JinMine
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
3
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Posted - 2017.03.17 10:27:53 -
[3] - Quote
Do Little wrote: I think it would make more sense to replace the orders with orders for micro PLEX. Simply multiply the quantity and divide the unit price by 500. The script wouldn't be any more complicated and you eliminate the issue of reimbursing brokerage paid to Citadel owners.
Agree. Too bad it's not what they say they gonna do |
Gaius Clabbacus
Basket of Deplorables
39
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Posted - 2017.03.17 11:49:03 -
[4] - Quote
Put up a private citadel, broker fee at max, place sell order for plex (in case of insufficient liquid ISK, recycle the ISK received from broker fees), at the end move all remaining ISK to secondary accounts. Wait for reimbursement.
Nope, this doesn't seem ready for abuse at all.
Edit: buy orders with margin trading skill would also work. |
Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
2249
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Posted - 2017.03.17 12:20:24 -
[5] - Quote
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:Put up a private citadel, broker fee at max, place sell order for plex (in case of insufficient liquid ISK, recycle the ISK received from broker fees), at the end move all remaining ISK to secondary accounts. Wait for reimbursement.
Nope, this doesn't seem ready for abuse at all.
Edit: buy orders with margin trading skill would also work.
Sounds very EVE-like to me. NO POORS!
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3510
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Posted - 2017.03.17 13:36:03 -
[6] - Quote
Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. CCP, your turn ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
945
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Posted - 2017.03.17 15:13:10 -
[7] - Quote
this is a variant on what probag did with the plex wall :)
The flip side of it is, what happens if you set corp orders and dont have a corp office when CCP cancels?
Previously they have ended up in impound, which is a bit pricey
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us IChooseYou Holdings
96
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Posted - 2017.03.19 20:14:39 -
[8] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. CCP, your turn ...
If you do this, expect a ban. The potential exploit has already been reported to CCP.
Also, I think that it is against EULA to disclose/announce potential exploits to other players, and this thread should maybe be amended accordingly.
Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3527
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Posted - 2017.03.19 20:29:05 -
[9] - Quote
IChooseYou wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. CCP, your turn ... If you do this, expect a ban. The potential exploit has already been reported to CCP. Also, I think that it is against EULA to disclose/announce potential exploits to other players, and this thread should maybe be amended accordingly. Salty because the OP defeats your plans with public posting?
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
42
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Posted - 2017.03.19 22:40:54 -
[10] - Quote
While I think it's reasonable to wonder how the broker fees will be repaid, people wringing their hands over this is just silly. It's a one-time event that won't mean anything to anybody a week after it happens. There's simply no way for CCP to execute a major change like this without upsetting somebody. Maybe a few people will exploit it or maybe some people will get mildly screwed - big deal. That's EVE. |
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Gaius Clabbacus
Basket of Deplorables
39
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Posted - 2017.03.20 00:29:44 -
[11] - Quote
It wouldn't be too hard for CCP to implement this change without screwing up the market or handing out tons of free ISK (a back of the envelope calculation shows a tidy profit for me even if I substract the fortizar as a loss). Just replace all existing orders with orders for the new PLEX token, adjusting prices and volume as appropriate, and they can even give every trader 5 ISK to account for rounding errors. |
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
42
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Posted - 2017.03.20 00:44:43 -
[12] - Quote
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:It wouldn't be too hard for CCP to implement this change without screwing up the market or handing out tons of free ISK (a back of the envelope calculation shows a tidy profit for me even if I substract the fortizar as a loss). Just replace all existing orders with orders for the new PLEX token, adjusting prices and volume as appropriate, and they can even give every trader 5 ISK to account for rounding errors.
Sure...and then there will be those who scream about having their orders summarily changed to a different item against their will. If the past policy has been to cancel orders and refund fees after major changes, it seems reasonable to do the same here. And given that CCP has done it this way before, they already have a reference and history in terms of any blowback or unintended consequences. They may as well be consistent where they can.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5955
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Posted - 2017.03.20 10:11:02 -
[13] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:While I think it's reasonable to wonder how the broker fees will be repaid, people wringing their hands over this is just silly. It's a one-time event that won't mean anything to anybody a week after it happens. There's simply no way for CCP to execute a major change like this without upsetting somebody. Maybe a few people will exploit it or maybe some people will get mildly screwed - big deal. That's EVE.
This could easily result in corp wallets winding up in the negative twelve figures.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us IChooseYou Holdings
96
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Posted - 2017.03.20 14:46:23 -
[14] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:IChooseYou wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. CCP, your turn ... If you do this, expect a ban. The potential exploit has already been reported to CCP. Also, I think that it is against EULA to disclose/announce potential exploits to other players, and this thread should maybe be amended accordingly. Salty because the OP defeats your plans with public posting?
I love this game too much to risk being banned over a few bil (or even a few hundred bil).
Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
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Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
42
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Posted - 2017.03.20 14:59:39 -
[15] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:This could easily result in corp wallets winding up in the negative twelve figures.
12 figures? you mean 100B+ in broker fees? That's utterly ridiculous. According to EVE Market Data, there's currently about 1.3T (trillion) in PLEX buy orders on the entire EVE market and another 0.7T in sell orders. That's a grand total of a little over 2T in PLEX orders on the market. Even if you assume that half of those are at player controlled stations (though it's less) and then also generously assume a 1.5% broker fee (though it's usually less), that's a maximum of 15B in broker fees that have been paid to players.
Considering I could pay that by myself (and I'm certainly nothing special in regard to my EVE finances), it's hard to weep for such a potential loss being absorbed by the entirety of the rich player base selling PLEX. And that's assuming that CCP takes it from the station owners- they may very well simply print the money because 15B isn't going to destabilize the market in the least.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3539
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Posted - 2017.03.20 15:46:38 -
[16] - Quote
IChooseYou wrote: I love this game too much to risk being banned over a few bil (or even a few hundred bil).
Good to read, same here.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3539
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Posted - 2017.03.20 15:52:10 -
[17] - Quote
You overlook that owners can set the fee to 50% and spawn fantasy buy orders for PLEX on their own using the margin trade skill and reinvesting the fees they get into new orders until they run out of funds (10T, 100T, 1000T?). Then sit back and wait for the (almost) ISK doubling on patch day, if the fees are spawned and refunded.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
1036
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:16:36 -
[18] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Gaius Clabbacus wrote:It wouldn't be too hard for CCP to implement this change without screwing up the market or handing out tons of free ISK (a back of the envelope calculation shows a tidy profit for me even if I substract the fortizar as a loss). Just replace all existing orders with orders for the new PLEX token, adjusting prices and volume as appropriate, and they can even give every trader 5 ISK to account for rounding errors. Sure...and then there will be those who scream about having their orders summarily changed to a different item against their will. If the past policy has been to cancel orders and refund fees after major changes, it seems reasonable to do the same here. And given that CCP has done it this way before, they already have a reference and history in terms of any blowback or unintended consequences. They may as well be consistent where they can.
People are already annoyed that they're probably going to lose broker's fees they paid to another player. As far as I can remember past policy for changed items has been mixed, no orders were cancelled for tiericide, nerfs, or RAM multiplication, but for fighters they were, I think that would be a mistake for PLEX not to be cancelled, and an even bigger one to refund broker's fees paid to players, that includes both citadels and outposts.
Tipa Riot wrote:IChooseYou wrote: I love this game too much to risk being banned over a few bil (or even a few hundred bil).
Good to read, same here.
If they refunded broker's fees from player markets then I think you could almost triple any liquid ISK you've got. It would be a disaster.
Free 3rd party services
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
42
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:18:02 -
[19] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:You overlook that owners can set the fee to 50% and spawn fantasy buy orders for PLEX on their own using the margin trade skill and reinvesting the fees they get into new orders until they run out of funds (10T, 100T, 1000T?). Then sit back and wait for the (almost) ISK doubling on patch day, if the fees are spawned and refunded.
No, what I'm talking about is potential impact to players and station owners who are playing the game within the letter and spirit of the rules. What you're describing is an exploit that CCP can deal with on a case by case basis. Anyone willing to risk a ban or suspension by setting up a bunch of bogus orders at extravagant broker's fees knows the risk. If they think the risk is worth the reward, then I say more power to them. That's part of playing the game too.
The catch-22 is that the only way to fly under the radar with such an exploit is to make so little isk that it's not worth the risk. But to make the reward worthwhile virtually ensures that you'll get caught.
This reimbursement issue is virtually meaningless to people playing within the rules. It's only an issue to people attempting to exploit. If those people take the risk and make some money, I don't care. But I also don't care if CCP drops the hammer on them.
TL; DR: I can't come up with a reason to care one way or another. Neither does 99.99% of the player population. An issue that's only an issue to 0.1% of the player base isn't an issue. |
Areen Sassel
180
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:23:21 -
[20] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Sure...and then there will be those who scream about having their orders summarily changed to a different item against their will.
While of course you are right (someone will scream about any change whatsoever), I think CCP should favour making people whose complaint makes no sense be the ones who do the screaming.
Provided the minimum quantity is set to 500, the conversion of an order for PLEX into 500x as many microPLEX makes no actual difference whatsoever, so if someone complains, they're being silly. |
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IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us IChooseYou Holdings
96
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:26:38 -
[21] - Quote
If CCP can't just convert existing orders and multiply them by 500, one solution could be that, when they cancel all orders, they they immediately and automatically relist them at 1/500th of the price.
CCP would have to apply the tax rate that was in force at the time of the initial order. Both sales and brokers rates at the relevant time should apply since corp and faction standings could have changed too.
Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
1036
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:31:04 -
[22] - Quote
IChooseYou wrote:If CCP can't just convert existing orders and multiply them by 500, one solution could be that, when they cancel all orders, they they immediately and automatically relist them at 1/500th of the price.
CCP would have to apply the tax rate that was in force at the time of the initial order (both sales and brokers rates at the relevant time should apply since corp and faction standings could have changed too).
The reason they're cancelling orders is because PLEX will be volatile, old AUR stocks will be converted to PLEX, people will panic, and frankly it's what they should do every time they make a big change.
Free 3rd party services
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
42
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:32:49 -
[23] - Quote
Areen Sassel wrote:While of course you are right (someone will scream about any change whatsoever), I think CCP should favour making people whose complaint makes no sense be the ones who do the screaming.
Provided the minimum quantity is set to 500, the conversion of an order for PLEX into 500x as many microPLEX makes no actual difference whatsoever, so if someone complains, they're being silly.
I'll concede that conversion would be the least disruptive, but I see this as an effort to create some level of consistency regarding how they handle major changes to items. PLEX is the only outlier in which conversion is even a possibility. I simply don't think CCP gave it a lot of thought because it's not WORTH a lot of thought. They can convert it, take the fees from station owners or print the money - it's not going to be a big impact regardless of what they do. I'm simply making the point that people declaring that the sky is falling (as they always do over anything and everything) are being ridiculous. |
IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us IChooseYou Holdings
96
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:34:52 -
[24] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote: The reason they're cancelling orders is because PLEX will be volatile, old AUR stocks will be converted to PLEX, people will panic, and frankly it's what they should do every time they make a big change.
A lot of market items can become volatile for a number of different reasons. In my opinion, this doesn't justify screwing over (either the trader or market owner. If people are worried about volatility, they should monitor and/or cancel their own orders before hand.
Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
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IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us IChooseYou Holdings
96
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:38:05 -
[25] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Areen Sassel wrote:While of course you are right (someone will scream about any change whatsoever), I think CCP should favour making people whose complaint makes no sense be the ones who do the screaming.
Provided the minimum quantity is set to 500, the conversion of an order for PLEX into 500x as many microPLEX makes no actual difference whatsoever, so if someone complains, they're being silly. I'll concede that conversion would be the least disruptive, but I see this as an effort to create some level of consistency regarding how they handle major changes to items. PLEX is the only outlier in which conversion is even a possibility. I simply don't think CCP gave it a lot of thought because it's not WORTH a lot of thought. They can convert it, take the fees from station owners or print the money - it's not going to be a big impact regardless of what they do. I'm simply making the point that people declaring that the sky is falling (as they always do over anything and everything) are being ridiculous.
You are right in that I don't really care about losing 15b (not that this number is accurate in any event). But it is just the principle that if you are going to do something, do it right.
Also, i think you are wrong to say that plex is the only item in which this could occur. I seem to recall there being something to this effect with RAM. Some people abused it to get rid of their bounties and got temporary bans.
Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
1036
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:49:03 -
[26] - Quote
IChooseYou wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote: The reason they're cancelling orders is because PLEX will be volatile, old AUR stocks will be converted to PLEX, people will panic, and frankly it's what they should do every time they make a big change.
A lot of market items can become volatile for a number of different reasons. In my opinion, this doesn't justify screwing over either the trader or market owner. If people are worried about volatility, they should monitor and/or cancel their own orders before hand.
This is a bigger change than most, even fighters had their orders cancelled. Remember, they're also retiring the 30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) item and introducing a new one, this way the old history is preserved. I imagine converting one item into another, and its market orders while changing their price introduces more points of failure that they really don't want to have to test for.
Free 3rd party services
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
1036
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Posted - 2017.03.20 16:57:48 -
[27] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:[...] PLEX is the only outlier in which conversion is even a possibility. [...]
RAM, fighters, and I believe compressed ores, had their quantities messed with.
Free 3rd party services
21 day trial, you keep the whole PLEX
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3539
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Posted - 2017.03.20 18:18:31 -
[28] - Quote
I think the best solution would be to do two things:
1) cancel all orders, no refund 2) set broker fees for (new)PLEX everywhere to 0 for a couple of days to allow relisting.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5955
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Posted - 2017.03.20 21:08:46 -
[29] - Quote
Zarek Kree wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:This could easily result in corp wallets winding up in the negative twelve figures. 12 figures? you mean 100B+ in broker fees? That's utterly ridiculous. According to EVE Market Data, there's currently about 1.3T (trillion) in PLEX buy orders on the entire EVE market and another 0.7T in sell orders. That's a grand total of a little over 2T in PLEX orders on the market. Even if you assume that half of those are at player controlled stations (though it's less) and then also generously assume a 1.5% broker fee (though it's usually less), that's a maximum of 15B in broker fees that have been paid to players. Considering I could pay that by myself (and I'm certainly nothing special in regard to my EVE finances), it's hard to weep for such a potential loss being absorbed by the entirety of the rich player base selling PLEX. And that's assuming that CCP takes it from the station owners- they may very well simply print the money because 15B isn't going to destabilize the market in the least.
There are over 6000 buy orders for PLEX up now. This will increase in the leadup to the shakeup - look how many orders went up in the PLEX wall.
The losses will hit corps that host trade Fortizars, unless CCP actually duplicate the ISK, which is not standard practice for reimbursing things in EVE. Even when a game bug results in a ship loss CCP's standard policy is to reimburse the hull and then only those modules and cargo that did not drop.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Professor JinMine
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
5
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Posted - 2017.03.21 03:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
As you can see, We have roughly 20T in buy orders and 8T sell orders in 389 public citadels in New Eden (20 MAR) For example, IChooseYou with his his Perimeter Fortizar, hosts 8.5T buy orders, 2T of which is PLEX orders. Let's assume 0.1% broker fee for the sake of discussion: that's 2B hit to his wallet from the canceled PLEX buy orders alone if CCP decides to reimburse broker fees with citadel owners' ISK. I'm sure IChooseYou could easily tank this hit, but it's the matter of principle. Why should he cough up his ISK for CCP's action? |
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