Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
757
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 06:34:24 -
[61] - Quote
I am amazed by the sentiments that I am condemning the Republic here; moreover amazed that I receive such sentiments from pirates and hostiles. Have things really gone so bad that to disagree with Shakor's politics is considered traitorous in its own right? Is speaking against him now the worst crime we can perform?
That said; I will no longer answer personal attacks here. Let's talk about the message, not the messenger.
Challis Drant wrote:Please note Elsebeth is not a Diplomat for EM. ( Once I can convince her to stand for that again - oh I shall - I shall) Nope.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:There seems to be a common misunderstanding of Ms Rhiannon's point vis a vis economic and military infrastructure - namely that it is entirely possible to be both improving relative to your position last year and falling behind compared to your enemy. Thank you.
Ayallah wrote:Where are these people? Who are you arguing against in this thread? That is indeed a good question and one I already asked in the thread, too. Where are those people? We had no shortage ten years ago, and let me assure you, the loyalists then did not (if I say so myself) just up and pack their bags because someone disagreed with them and said so with no uncertain terms.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien wrote:I, for one, welcome my Elsebeth overlord! Nope to that too.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2658
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 07:25:02 -
[62] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Templar Thal Vadam wrote:Perhaps the leaders of our respective nations do not really desire a death toll in the hundreds of billions. This would be a fine argument, if the Sanmatar had not pretty much ran for office with the contrary opinion.
And this is why democracy fails.
Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
|
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
2103
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 07:33:07 -
[63] - Quote
Also, remember that the Sanmatar came into power at about the same time the Republic's government went into the drain. I am sure rebuilding the Republic's government structure was considered a higher priority than starting a war especially considering the losses sustained by the Elder Fleet.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
757
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 08:27:38 -
[64] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Not to mention the Emancipation happened, which, while very likely an attempt to politically embarrass the Republic, also opens up the possibility that the Empire is open to a more peaceful method of ending the Republic's long gripe against the Empire. Then throw in the fact that the current Empress was formerly of a servitor bloodline and is also a mercantile power, the likelihood for a peaceful resolution through negotiations and possibly very shady backroom dealings seems to be even greater than ever before. Such optimism is refreshing in this galaxy. I wish I could share it.
If you allow me to continue that spirit of international respect, I would, in fact, be very interested in hearing Admiral (is it still 'Admiral'?) Blake's comments on this one. Do you see a peaceful solution an achievable goal, given the current government?
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1436
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 08:35:19 -
[65] - Quote
If anyone think Cat's going to be a leader with a manumission bent, you're not thinking particularly clearly. Her House, political and economical philosophies are no secret to anyone paying a little attention. Much like Khanid, it's far more about the profits and power mongering of the slave trade than any kind of religious duty of 'enlightenment' to those people.
If her views on the subject will matter in the Empire - which is not necessarily the case on any large scale, admittedly - there'll be more slave raids, more vitoxin use and more TCMC use.
On the other hand, this is a far more... practical Empress than the previous one in such regards. Make the price too high to pay and she might be willing to negotiate a solution falling short of a war where the gain can never match the certain losses. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
2103
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 08:47:15 -
[66] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:If anyone think Cat's going to be a leader with a manumission bent, you're not thinking particularly clearly. Her House, political and economical philosophies are no secret to anyone paying a little attention. Much like Khanid, it's far more about the profits and power mongering of the slave trade than any kind of religious duty of 'enlightenment' to those people.
If her views on the subject will matter in the Empire - which is not necessarily the case on any large scale, admittedly - there'll be more slave raids, more vitoxin use and more TCMC use.
On the other hand, this is a far more... practical Empress than the previous one in such regards. Make the price too high to pay and she might be willing to negotiate a solution falling short of a war where the gain can never match the certain losses.
That is EXACTLY the point. She is a merchant, a practical person. That makes negotiation with her a far more likely proposition. Never trust negotiations made on moral grounds to go well. Instead, go for the pragmatic angle. She's of a former servitor bloodline and a merchant to boot. That means there's a good likelihood that she will be far less zealous than her fellows in matters of holding slaves. Throw in a previous precedent and there is a much better chance of getting something out of negotiating for further emancipations than previously. Since there is that angle to pursue, I say, pursue it first.
If the other Heirs, except Khanid, were Emperor, negotiation is off the table. Since it's not them but Catiz, there's a small chance. Might as well exploit that for all it is worth.
War is still an option, but should only be reserved as the last resort.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Graelyn
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
929
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 11:53:42 -
[67] - Quote
I would remind you that we seem to have lived through the reign of a Sarumite Empress, who literally took the throne atop the bones of an invading Tribal warfleet, and the order to glass Pator did not come.
The war-monger who deposed the one person who the Republic owes it's continued existence to, also came to power. The Defiants are more silent now than ever.
The worst case scenario for the Republic came. And went.
Huge capsuleer paramilitaries (compared to what we have now) used to skirmish and prepare for the day they were called upon to set forth on that final terrible path. That call never really came. Some of those forces still exist now, but I'd put the relative strength of then-to-now at around 5-10% at best.
I can appreciate how no one during this discussion has aped the silly line of "But we are at war!" Anyone who believes it would do well to sign up themselves and see what that 'war' entails. When one side of a conflict regularly switches sides en-masse just to keep up the appearance (and funding) of a conflict, and all sides find it acceptable, then you have your answer. The Pendulum Wars do accomplish one thing though; any true zealot of either side has a place to go and die for their cause in a small fireball, in a tiny ship, alone, and far away from anything of value.
So, "Where is your War"?
It, and those who actually wanted to fight it, were slowly fed into a tiny paper shredder.
Cardinal Graelyn
Imperial Liaison, I-RED
Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2980
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 12:40:27 -
[68] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:That is EXACTLY the point. She is a merchant, a practical person. That makes negotiation with her a far more likely proposition. Never trust negotiations made on moral grounds to go well. Instead, go for the pragmatic angle.
Something I heard from one of my crew feels applicable here:
"Better the devil than an honest man. One of them will compromise." |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2982
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 13:06:23 -
[69] - Quote
Graelyn wrote:I can appreciate how no one during this discussion has aped the silly line of "But we are at war!" Anyone who believes it would do well to sign up themselves and see what that 'war' entails. When one side of a conflict regularly switches sides en-masse just to keep up the appearance (and funding) of a conflict, and all sides find it acceptable, then you have your answer. The Pendulum Wars do accomplish one thing though; any true zealot of either side has a place to go and die for their cause in a small fireball, in a tiny ship, alone, and far away from anything of value.
Eh, there are those who take the Pendulum Games very seriously, and insist they are a 'real war', and just as soon as they can win that part, their home empire will decide to flaunt CONCORD and set them loose to see that the fed-err.... enemy will be destroyed.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
843
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 14:10:37 -
[70] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Much like Khanid, it's far more about the profits and power mongering of the slave trade than any kind of religious duty of 'enlightenment' to those people.
If her views on the subject will matter in the Empire - which is not necessarily the case on any large scale, admittedly - there'll be more slave raids, more vitoxin use and more TCMC use. You are basing this an absolutely nothing at all but your own fears.
House Tash-Murkon has long been thought of as the most liberal and progressive of the royal houses and in the past were a major factor in pushing for relations with the Federation and Republic. The house is nothing like Khanid, it has long been used as an example for a good balance of treating slaves well but properly managing their work. You should be grateful that she is Empress where she can move the policies of the Empire to be more like her liberal house. I truly wonder how you people would handle an actual conservative on the throne after all your years of crying wolf over liberal Empresses.
The perception of her practicality is because during the reign of Heth she recognized the weakness of the State's position and, with her fostering as Garkeh Khanid and Merimeth Sarum as allies, drafted the CAESA. Empress Jamyl enacted it on 01.02.111.
None of this adds up in any capacity to the picture you are trying to paint but I doubt anyone expects accuracy from you regarding the Empire.
As strength goes.
|
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1437
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 14:17:29 -
[71] - Quote
What fears? This is the best possible option we could have gotten, you blithering moron.
That you also have no understanding of what 'liberal' means in the context of the Empire's leaders and how they tend to treat the slave trade, due to the shift in motivation, is also unsurprising I suppose. I truly can not fathom how poorly you understand literally every nation and faction in New Eden and yet feel you should be sharing your staggering amount of stupid in every possible venue you can.
I suggest using your head the way your breeders intended. A blunt instrument to knock down walls and doors with. It'll shame you a great deal less. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3172
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 18:11:28 -
[72] - Quote
It's starting to look a little like this might have been a snark too soon. If the State and Federation go at it hard ...
(Please gods no.)
... I wonder if the Empire and Republic will be able to stay out of it. It would probably be best if they did, but.... |
Jade Blackwind
1296
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 18:19:14 -
[73] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:It's starting to look a little like this might have been a snark too soon. If the State and Federation go at it hard ...
(Please gods no.)
... I wonder if the Empire and Republic will be able to stay out of it. It would probably be best if they did, but....
...Probably no.
Nauplius might be a bit mad, but his idea of a "Blood Age" has some merit in it. Of course, it won't go his way, and probably even opposite to his way, but the Empires will fall, Chaos and the Beast will reign, and blood will flow freely in the grand Free-For-All that awaits us.
Fun!
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
843
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 19:30:07 -
[74] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:the profits and power mongering of the slave trade than any kind of religious duty of 'enlightenment' to those people.
If her views on the subject will matter in the Empire - which is not necessarily the case on any large scale, admittedly - there'll be more slave raids, more vitoxin use and more TCMC use.
- A slave trade focused more on profit than spirituality
- More slave raids
- More use of Vitoxin
- More TCMC use
These are your fears. Though I suspect now your entire view of it is based on the idea that "liberals want more trade" therefor "There will be more focus on slavery for profit and the mechanisms of it." You directly compare her to Khanid which just shows how little you understand about it at every level. Some liberals do believe that what you are saying but those are the liberal conservatives, mostly Khanid holders, not the Classical liberals such as Tash-Murkon which are more focused on equality and individual freedoms. It is a distinction that may seem confusing but to anyone born in the Empire you are comparing Sarumites and Khanids to Tash-Murkons and you look a fool.
The fact you throw a fit about the care of your people one day and then the next say that your idea of a Empress who pushes the for-profit slave trade and inhumane methods of control is good for the same shows the level of cognitive dissonance you go into just to feel right. Perhaps you have been doing what you suggested I should do, hitting your head against something repeatedly? Not understanding the difference between a liberal conservative house and a classically liberal house is understandable but claiming a liberal conservative Empress is the best thing for your people? That is an insane twist.
As strength goes.
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2976
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 20:30:33 -
[75] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:You are basing this an absolutely nothing at all but your own fears.
And the most basic understanding of House Tash-Murkon. It is amusing how much faith you put in a house that has none. You do know that TCMC usage outside of the Kingdom is highest in Tash-Murkon territories? And that Tash-Murkon and Khanid have had very close relations since long before the Kingdom was ever invited back to the Privy Council (it was Her Imperial Majesty Catiz that arranged that, afterall)? And that House Tash-Murkon was pushing for escalation in slave taking operations and the war just a few years ago? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2988
|
Posted - 2017.03.22 22:34:15 -
[76] - Quote
Jade Blackwind wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:It's starting to look a little like this might have been a snark too soon. If the State and Federation go at it hard ...
(Please gods no.)
... I wonder if the Empire and Republic will be able to stay out of it. It would probably be best if they did, but.... ...Probably no.
If that happens, and it goes to all-out war between all four, capsuleer trade will likely suffer as well. After all, if you're the Federation and you want to hurt the State, just get yourself a loyal egger, have them publicly renounce their ties, do their work to build up standings enough to avoid CN interdiction... and then bring a freighter full of explosives right into the undocking tunnel for Jita 4-4 CNA.
Heck, each of the Empires probably has eggers they've specifically tasked with keeping good standing in the 'enemy' empires in order to facilitate deep strikes. Wouldn't take more than a few to create a real disruption to all those broker fees and taxes the State sucks down every day.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
766
|
Posted - 2017.03.23 11:11:25 -
[77] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:House Tash-Murkon. It is amusing how much faith you put in a house that has none. Nice to know I am not the only one in the galaxy with complex loyalty issues.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
|
Lord Harrowmont
Quantum Decoherence
26
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 08:36:57 -
[78] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:It's been almost ten years since Malaetu Shakor stepped into office as the Republic's prime minister (later 'Sanmatar'). While more patient minds cautioned against it, many clans supported him, because he made them promises of new glory, of a full-out war at last, the final throwing off our shackles. At his inaugural speech, he seemed confirm their hopes: "Sons and daughters of Matar, make no mistake about it. [---] Let it be known from this day forth that we are a race of warriors, not slaves, and that we will fight to the last drop of blood for what we hold dear." Almost a decade. Not slaves but warriors. And what do we have to show for it? Oh, we have fought the Militia wars. We have even won it, for a short while, and some of us have metal to show for it. But where was the push on from that victory? The Empire was in turmoil, we held the field, slaves were returning and turning into warriors, and then what? The next step is causing a controversy with his choice of companion and attire? I am sure our sisters and brothers still in the darkness rejoiced and complimented his bravery. Where is our war, Sanmatar Shakor?
It's always the same with you Minmatar. I say we build that wall and send 'em back!
VICTORY TO THE AMARR EMPIRE |
Davlos
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
116
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 08:40:54 -
[79] - Quote
It's generally considered unethical to wage war on a blind man. It's just as unpleasant and unfair as challenging said blind man to a contest in watching the grass grow.
A war will come. But it's really impolite to be declaring war now. |
Gwion Achasse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 18:14:44 -
[80] - Quote
I'll sit back and wait for the tribals to chuck their first spear and see what happens.
I doubt even the majority of the Minmatar want this war. |
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
930
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 18:45:26 -
[81] - Quote
Gwion Achasse wrote:I'll sit back and wait for the tribals to chuck their first spear and see what happens.
I doubt even the majority of the Minmatar want this war. No, it's the Amarrian's turn to chuck their spear. We take turns, it's only polite.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
401
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 19:12:43 -
[82] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Ayallah wrote:You are basing this an absolutely nothing at all but your own fears. And the most basic understanding of House Tash-Murkon. It is amusing how much faith you put in a house that has none. You do know that TCMC usage outside of the Kingdom is highest in Tash-Murkon territories? And that Tash-Murkon and Khanid have had very close relations since long before the Kingdom was ever invited back to the Privy Council (it was Her Imperial Majesty Catiz that arranged that, afterall)? And that House Tash-Murkon was pushing for escalation in slave taking operations and the war just a few years ago? Indeed people should put their faith in a house that gave us Mad Emperor, sprouted a cult that hates every living thing and amongst other great deeds glassed a planet. Also good to know, you don't want to see the Kingdom and the Empire united. |
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 19:18:57 -
[83] - Quote
I still believe in the Sanmatar. When he came into power I saw hope.
With that intro statement out of the way I have to admit that this topic stirs up many emotions and thoughts and I am not sure which has the most importance to address. But I'll start with the sentiments on the current affairs in the republic, move on to the state of Matari Loyalists from my point of view, and finally into where our war is at with thoughts on our Sanmatar.
So on the Republic and how it fairs at the current moment. I see opinions on here ranging from that the Republic is in extreme disrepair all the way to its economy booming for the past decade. Honestly, the reality is not as simple as any answer on that scale. Economically we are doing quite well with infrastructure continuing to rise and build. We have some of the brightest minds working in all fields. At the same time, there are still lingering instability issues as we try reorganize our space to re-include our brothers and sisters in the Thukker, Nefantar, and Starkmanir tribes. Reports of the transitions seem to be stable, but slow seeing many challenges but overall the transition seems to be going well. but again, slow and complicated. So I would not classify the Republic as either wholly suffering or unopposed booming in success but rather comparable in strength (economic, military, and otherwise) to our neighbors in Empire space.
As for the Matari Loyalists, this subject hits a sore spot for me as a past member of Ushra'Khan. I still believe that our numbers, Matari Loyalists that is, are great as is our strength. And I have a lot of pride that I flew with my brothers and sisters in Ushra'Khan before starting a modest independent exploration career. That said, I believe there are two faults to us and they are quite separate and not related to each other:
1. We are so spread out, the relative peace has lead many to pursuing non-republic related ventures. (Such as my tenure in benign exploration, I am also at fault for this). 2. The Pendulum Wars.
The second point is the primary sore spot for me, it is my belief that the pendulum wars have distracted us from truly growing. That said, I haven't participated since leaving Ushra'Khan but from the outside, it seems that pendulum seems pointless with no gains for us. I believe so many of us saw the pendulum wars as clear entry for our warriors to sink their teeth into the slaver's asses but with negligible gains in our goal of freeing our brothers and sisters, our numbers dwindled and today the once great and feared alliances are footnotes hardly spoken of.
Lastly, the point of this thread: the Sanmatar and the war. To reiterate my intro statement, I have always seen Sanmatar Shakor as hope. He is everything that the Republic needs to free our brethren in chains. Yes he is a warrior and yes he became Sanmatar on his views. But that is not what will (solely at least) free our people. What is important is that he is cunning. I believe he knows when to strike and how. I do believe that freeing the slaves remains high on his priorities but I also believe that he is playing the long game.
I don't know how he plans to do it, but I believe in him and I wait for the call and all the while do what I can to personally make a dent. So as a final statement to end this, do not give up Hope. The war is coming even if we do not know what form it takes. |
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
249
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 18:48:55 -
[84] - Quote
No war. Shakorites go home.
((
If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:
Intergalactic Summit - IC router
Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore
))
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
776
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 18:56:41 -
[85] - Quote
Luna Hanaya wrote:No war. Shakorites go home. I believe they all mostly already did.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
|
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
249
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 18:58:47 -
[86] - Quote
I will pray for them to stay there!
((
If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:
Intergalactic Summit - IC router
Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore
))
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
2422
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 00:15:13 -
[87] - Quote
You'd better pray we don't come your way little Kim sock puppet.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Oland Jan
Antumbra
6
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 00:39:57 -
[88] - Quote
I won't say much. I live in the Federation now and call her home, so I don't think it right to do so. I know Karin Midular's government was unpopular and even corrupt. But she was a good woman with an honest desire for peace. I remember her and thank her for her service. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2118
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 01:30:25 -
[89] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:I won't say much. I live in the Federation now and call her home, so I don't think it right to do so. I know Karin Midular's government was unpopular and even corrupt. But she was a good woman with an honest desire for peace. I remember her and thank her for her service.
No matter what she did, leaving the physical realm at the hands of a bigot assassin on a distant world is no way to go. May her spirit find Andesh, regardless of what had happened to her.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
297
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 02:28:57 -
[90] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Oland Jan wrote:I won't say much. I live in the Federation now and call her home, so I don't think it right to do so. I know Karin Midular's government was unpopular and even corrupt. But she was a good woman with an honest desire for peace. I remember her and thank her for her service. No matter what she did, leaving the physical realm at the hands of a bigot assassin on a distant world is no way to go. May her spirit find Andesh, regardless of what had happened to her. I don't care who you are... If you were decent, you shed some tears that day. There were a lot of reasons to. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |