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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3073
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Posted - 2017.04.01 01:01:31 -
[121] - Quote
Casserina Leshrac wrote:It is unfortunate that the Empire took steps to enslave innocent peoples as part of assimilating the Empire.
Slavery in this regard is not purely an Imperial issue. Numerous criminal organization enslave for their own reasons. Like the aforementioned raiders.
Slavery is practiced by the Empire still. But again not what were like during our Reclaiming efforts. And certainly not for spiritual reasons.
But again, the Empire has not been at war specifically to reclaim and conquer for nearly 200 years. Those slaves that do remain serve as form incarceration against Imperial Law.
You should probably check your facts. Enslaved descendants of slaves taken in raids persist in the Empire, including bloodlines who were placed in chains for no reason other than the Reclaiming. The fact that the Empire's bloody expansion was checked by the Gallente and then the Jove has not changed how Holders approach their slaves. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3073
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Posted - 2017.04.01 01:07:03 -
[122] - Quote
Casserina Leshrac wrote:The Empire does need to streamline a lot its issues. But when you have an Emperor that can live for nearly 500 years there is very little to be done except outright civil war.
At this point, I'd think the Empire would be happy with a ruler who lasts fifteen years.
Not that the longevity of the sovereign has any bearing on potential corruption within the Admiralty, or the fact that people seem to think one of the proponents of expanded Reclaiming operations will suddenly eliminate the raids by the Imperial Navy now that she's on the throne. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
787
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Posted - 2017.04.01 07:53:16 -
[123] - Quote
I would also point out that even if it is true that the Empire is not currently pursuing a Reclaiming War, the idea of slavery as a way to salvation that the Amarr have a moral duty to offer to "lesser races" is still very much canon in the Amarrian religion. A temporary political decision not to openly pursue that duty by war is great for those who wish to have peace, but it is hardly the same thing as having forever set aside plans to do so in the future.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2660
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Posted - 2017.04.01 07:54:44 -
[124] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Casserina Leshrac wrote:It is unfortunate that the Empire took steps to enslave innocent peoples as part of assimilating the Empire.
Slavery in this regard is not purely an Imperial issue. Numerous criminal organization enslave for their own reasons. Like the aforementioned raiders.
Slavery is practiced by the Empire still. But again not what were like during our Reclaiming efforts. And certainly not for spiritual reasons.
But again, the Empire has not been at war specifically to reclaim and conquer for nearly 200 years. Those slaves that do remain serve as form incarceration against Imperial Law. You should probably check your facts. Enslaved descendants of slaves taken in raids persist in the Empire, including bloodlines who were placed in chains for no reason other than the Reclaiming. The fact that the Empire's bloody expansion was checked by the Gallente and then the Jove has not changed how Holders approach their slaves.
It certainly hasn't changed the fact that most slaves in the Empire are treated fairly by their owners.
And anyway, why would we let the occasional setback stop us from doing the right thing?
Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
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Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
250
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Posted - 2017.04.01 10:29:50 -
[125] - Quote
Anyone does slave raids? Raise hand? I don't.
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Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2124
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Posted - 2017.04.02 08:17:55 -
[126] - Quote
Luna Hanaya wrote:Anyone does slave raids? Raise hand? I don't.
Which doesn't mean anything. Since when are you the very model of an Amarr citizen?
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3235
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Posted - 2017.04.02 10:55:44 -
[127] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Luna Hanaya wrote:Anyone does slave raids? Raise hand? I don't. Which doesn't mean anything. Since when are you the very model of an Amarr citizen?
While probably not a lot of people match any of them exactly, Mr. Egivand, there kind of seem to be several models of Amarrian citizenry. Which one is preferred depends on rank, but also House allegiance.
Qualities desired in a vassal to House Ardishapur will tend to vary from those House Kador, or even Sarum, appreciates.
House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3089
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Posted - 2017.04.02 13:04:51 -
[128] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force.
Renewed implies it's ever actually stopped, Aria.
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Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
257
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Posted - 2017.04.02 13:14:58 -
[129] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force. Renewed implies it's ever actually stopped, Aria.
Lawfully it has.
If you want to judge us by our outlaws , there are other outlaws that slave, such as the the various pirate factions that plague each of the Empires. A very wide criminal element, whether the motivation be profit or belief, perpetuates forcible enslavement in the cluster, regardless of how it's "called".
PIE stands for the Law and the Empire. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
789
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Posted - 2017.04.02 13:26:10 -
[130] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:PIE stands for the Law and the Empire. PIE would throw a party and commit a mortal sin by drinking themselves senseless in celebration, if the war of reclamation started tonight.
Upholding the law does not always mean you believe in it.
I should know.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3133
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Posted - 2017.04.03 12:13:10 -
[131] - Quote
I would like to point out that probably the largest criminal organization that deals with slavery, illegal enslavement and human trafficking actually comes from the Republic, and bears a name of Angel Cartel.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1838
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Posted - 2017.04.03 12:57:07 -
[132] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Arrendis wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force. Renewed implies it's ever actually stopped, Aria. Lawfully it has. If you want to judge us by our outlaws , there are other outlaws that slave, such as the the various pirate factions that plague each of the Empires. A very wide criminal element, whether the motivation be profit or belief, perpetuates forcible enslavement in the cluster, regardless of how it's "called". PIE stands for the Law and the Empire. While yes you are correct on that, which do it as a part of their religion? Blood raiders, a spin off of the Amarr religion, and....?
Also, lets not kid ourselves. PIE would be in its glory if reclaiming by force became a thing again. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3091
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Posted - 2017.04.03 13:25:28 -
[133] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Lawfully it has.
If you want to judge us by our outlaws
I'll consider it judging the Empire by its outlaws when it stops being hundreds, if not thousands, of Imperial Navy ships operating 'illegally' in Republic space.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7354
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Posted - 2017.04.03 14:42:56 -
[134] - Quote
There are many who fight in the shadow war who might be grateful for a chance to fight in the light again. Of course, an open war would unleash horrors not seen in centuries upon people who mostly live in peace, these days.
As tempting as it might be just to have it out once and for all, I suspect none of us would much like the Cluster that would be left afterwards.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1637
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Posted - 2017.04.03 14:46:28 -
[135] - Quote
The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.
Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3135
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Posted - 2017.04.03 14:57:23 -
[136] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.
Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement. Actually I agree with this, Mr. Onzo. While the Empire prohibits illegal enslavement, Minmatar government doesn't even consider it illegal if Republic kidnappers will break Empire borders and will steal some Amarr slaves.
I am pretty sure if Imperial Navy commits illegal enslavement act, when they will be presented with evidences, those who participated in this will be punished accordingly to the law (and maybe even will be enslaved themselves).
While if you counter the Republic with evidences of slaves theft, they will cry rivers and will bark with foam at their mouth that it is "their right" to intervene into Empire affair and steal their property or kidnap their citizens
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1838
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Posted - 2017.04.03 15:04:38 -
[137] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.
Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement. Not one single group of people in the cluster is innocent. Some simply pass the blame on to "outlaws" and others ignore it entirely. Atleast those who ignore it entirely aren't lieing to themselves as much as to their audience. Pot and kettle, while both black are different shades. Which ones darker? Matter of opinion maybe? |
Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1639
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Posted - 2017.04.03 15:08:36 -
[138] - Quote
Entirely a matter of opinion and subjective to the individual. That's why the whole affair is so contentious, everyone believes they're in the right and the others are in the wrong.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1838
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 15:09:37 -
[139] - Quote
With that said, i think were in agreement. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1502
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Posted - 2017.04.03 15:30:46 -
[140] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.
Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement.
Settlement, when there's nothing but pretense and lies to build it on? "Oh no, it's illegal. Doesn't really happen. Outlaws, surely." oozing sickly through a false smile can have only one response. "Fine, we'll deal with it ourselves and you'll be paying the price for it." Would you perhaps prefer ignoring these things? Would that be a basis to settle matters on?
The simple truth of it all is that at this point, New Eden would be justified in glassing every populated planet in Empire space for the crimes it has committed against humanity and continues to commit while pretending it doesn't. The fact that this will never happen - for countless reasons, practical as well as ethical - doesn't alleviate the Empire of having earned that sentence.
It doesn't matter how many words are bandied about or truths twisted into illegibility. It doesn't matter how many on both sides try their hardest to ignore the worst crime committed in New Eden's history so they can cower in the illusion of peace and safety while tittering, getting drunk and ******* in whatever watering hole is Egger Dejour. It doesn't matter that cowards and spineless scum hide behind law or convention so they don't have to take uncomfortable stances of principle.
In the end, there can never be any kind of true peace between the Tribes and the Empire, until either one breaks. The Yulai Convention isn't worth the oxygen wasted speaking the words, as long as both sides are so fundamentally opposed. One side bound by doctrine, dogma and pure blackhearted greed to enslave and eradicate the other, and the other rather understandably not comfortable with that fact nor ever able to forget or forgive the unmatched crime and horror inflicted upon it.
Think a damned treaty or convention matters to either? Think there can ever be a settlement of these accounts? This isn't kettles or pots. This is a matter that has been unsettled for centuries and can only be ended by blood. Might want to stop pretending this has a peaceful solution, because there won't be one. The Empire will never surrender our people or even admit that their action was one of the most vile crimes ever committed. The Tribes will never accept Empire rule.
This will end when there's nothing left to fight over, and the stupid pretense of 'peace' was never more than that. A pretense and a lie, designed to give enough breathing room to out form the opponent. No more.
It's getting to be disgusting that people pretend otherwise when they know better. |
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Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1640
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Posted - 2017.04.03 15:38:25 -
[141] - Quote
I'm glad my words were so provoking. This has been a productive afternoon!
You and I both know neither of us have any right to talk about principle given whom I have done odd jobs for, and whom you currently have a loose affiliation to.
If it's war it's war, and you know better then to think I wouldn't partake in mutual genocide for the sake of my home. But if its peace then those who seek it need to offer something both sides can stomach in the long term, otherwise how else will both sides accept it?
I'll be watching the official govenments either way on that one, given all this hot air on a forum accounts for as little as you see the Yulai Accords. I recommend sabre rattlers and peace protestors alike keep messaging their respective nation's official contacts till there's an answer either which way.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1504
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Posted - 2017.04.03 15:44:47 -
[142] - Quote
That is my point. There is nothing that would satisfy either side that the other would be willing to give. There is no peace to be had, so this pretense and lie of peace is outright deplorable in its dishonesty.
Hiding behind it and pretending it's real, denouncing the "illegal" acts of their own side while supporting the governments that perpetuate those acts... I can not even imagine the amount of mental contortion required to justify that position. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3093
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Posted - 2017.04.03 18:13:15 -
[143] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.
Whether I see them as justified or not, they aren't taking slaves. The Imperial Navy is.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3093
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Posted - 2017.04.03 18:16:36 -
[144] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:I am pretty sure if Imperial Navy commits illegal enslavement act, when they will be presented with evidences, those who participated in this will be punished accordingly to the law (and maybe even will be enslaved themselves).
The next time that happens will, to my knowledge, be the first.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3141
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Posted - 2017.04.03 21:02:03 -
[145] - Quote
I worked for Amarr Empire's Ministry of Internal Order briefly and was sent to exterminate illegal slavers.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Serech Sapphire
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2017.04.13 18:02:57 -
[146] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:It's been almost ten years since Malaetu Shakor stepped into office as the Republic's prime minister (later 'Sanmatar'). While more patient minds cautioned against it, many clans supported him, because he made them promises of new glory, of a full-out war at last, the final throwing off our shackles. At his inaugural speech, he seemed confirm their hopes: "Sons and daughters of Matar, make no mistake about it. [---] Let it be known from this day forth that we are a race of warriors, not slaves, and that we will fight to the last drop of blood for what we hold dear." Almost a decade. Not slaves but warriors. And what do we have to show for it? Oh, we have fought the Militia wars. We have even won it, for a short while, and some of us have metal to show for it. But where was the push on from that victory? The Empire was in turmoil, we held the field, slaves were returning and turning into warriors, and then what? The next step is causing a controversy with his choice of companion and attire? I am sure our sisters and brothers still in the darkness rejoiced and complimented his bravery. Where is our war, Sanmatar Shakor?
As if actual war will solve anything...The real question should be when will the war(s) end?
Besides the balance of power is close enough that any kind of open total war would be catastrophic,maybe even to a point of no return, for anyone involved.
And coming to think of it, you do have your war, only that is a cold one. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3320
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Posted - 2017.04.13 18:57:36 -
[147] - Quote
She was being facetious, I think, sir. She's kind of highlighting how, in the end, even those in the Republic who pushed hardest for war, in the end understood that it was a path to ruin, more than freedom or justice. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
790
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Posted - 2017.04.14 09:28:44 -
[148] - Quote
Nice theory, Jenneth, but no, that's not what I meant.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3409
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Posted - 2017.04.14 12:21:53 -
[149] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Nice theory, Jenneth, but no, that's not what I meant.
Oh.
So what did you mean? |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4426
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Posted - 2017.04.14 12:31:26 -
[150] - Quote
Well, New Eden is not a political vacuum. The reason why you're not at war may lie outside of Republic borders, in the State and the Federation. How would they react?
The Federation would almost certainly side with the Republic in the event of Imperial aggression, but I don't think it could be so readily counted on to charge into battle alongside the Republic in the event that the Minmatar declared war and attacked.
And the State? The State mostly cares about profit, and the Amarr are an enormous trading partner (not to mention breadbasket) and we do export to the Republic as well.
Either way, aggression by either side would force us (that is, the State and the Federation) to either abandon our political and economic best interests and lose some valuable investments...or it would force us both to pick a side and get dragged into somebody else's war.
And speaking as a Caldari? I do not want further war with the Federation. We got what we wanted - the homeworld is back under control, and the Federation recognizes our State as a legitimate and independent sovereign nation. So long as that state of affairs continues then our objectives are met and we have no further need for or interest in continued hostilities: Everything after that point is senseless rancor and bitterness which I hope will fade in time.
It's in the State's best interest now to pursue a sufficiently healthy relationship with the Federation that we can expand our trade surplus to them, and it's in the Federation's best interests to pursue a healthy relationship with the State for exactly the same reasons.
So I suspect at least part of the reason why there is not a genuine war between the Republic and the Empire at this point (that senseless black hole for lives and resources they call the militia conflict doesn't count) is the exertion of soft power by foreign influences. Us northerners stand to lose a lot from a war in the south, and our movers-and-shakers will be doing what they can to avoid it.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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