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Author	Topic
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:36:00 - [181] Originally by: Tibrius Archer Problem is 1v1. There are no fair 1vs1s. I begin to believe you do not pvp at all. Originally by: Tibrius Archer Gang arguments are no good when measuring the nerf bat. We all no the NOS mym and Nos domi are over powered but in a gang fight they would just get Ganked in a few seconds. So by your logic they are balanced. I don't consider the nos myrm overpowered, it's medium nos range is too low to be a real danger for smaller ships. It can take on larger ships, but it is pretty helpless against any small ship that operates out of nos range. Domi can nos any ship dry that doesn't carry a faction disruptor while doing enough damage to break a nosed dry tank. Originally by: Tibrius Archer U also say ships will just fly away from you, A gank geddon if he can't break your tank can't fly away if you have him scrambled (u can tank like 1000-1100 dps and have a distrupter on) A gank or tank absolution tipically have no speed to slow boat away with there armor rigs. Not everybody can fly away from the drake. You can eventually kill any ship that relys on cap injections if you have them scrambled and webbed (think all amarr ships and a lot of gallante). And again I included a cheap scramble web drake setup to prove this. You have to fit an mwd/ab to do this, as any half decent geddon pilot will be fasterthan the average drake by fitting one. Then you need to fit a webber, because the geddon pilot will just approach the gate, where 90% of the fights take part and jump while your still aggroed. That leaves you with 3 Med slots for tanking. Hoorray, what tank? Originally by: Tibrius Archer All the people who belive in tank forever in anyshape or form need to go back and read some of the Dev blogs. All people that whine about forever lasting tanks should sit in one, feel themselves it is total crap for everyday pvp and just stfu.
Augeas	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:41:00 - [182] 1v1s barely exist any more. And that's in normal fights, those that are over in a couple of minutes or so. Against a passive Drake, you should have plenty of time to call for backup.
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:52:00 - [183] Originally by: Spacer John Option 1: The Drake would no longer be useful at ALL if passive shield tanking dissapears. Why vote to make a ship completely useless? Option 1 is obvious garbage. i wish people would stop saying the drake is uesless without the passive tank. did EW stop working over night? Did lauchers loose there ability to stop switching damage overnight? Did some sort of "Tracking distrupter" come out for launchers overnight? the caladri drake compared to say the harbringer in its class does like 1/4 to 1/3 less the damage . not all Amarr ships have damage bonuses too. Better to compare the drake to the phrophacy. You get the amazing ability to do pure one damage type if need be. a tactical boon nobody else enjoys. A myrm can't reload it kinetic drones it and Demios jumps in. An zealot or harbinger cannot suddly deal explosive damge if a vagabond jumps. You CAN. You can also hit tinks without a webbber too unlike gallante and amarr. I am not going to turn this thread into an explination of how to use caladri ships. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:24:00 - [184] Originally by: kill0rbunny Originally by: Tibrius Archer Problem is 1v1. There are no fair 1vs1s. I begin to believe you do not pvp at all. Originally by: Tibrius Archer Gang arguments are no good when measuring the nerf bat. We all no the NOS mym and Nos domi are over powered but in a gang fight they would just get Ganked in a few seconds. So by your logic they are balanced. I don't consider the nos myrm overpowered, it's medium nos range is too low to be a real danger for smaller ships. It can take on larger ships, but it is pretty helpless against any small ship that operates out of nos range. Domi can nos any ship dry that doesn't carry a faction disruptor while doing enough damage to break a nosed dry tank. Originally by: Tibrius Archer U also say ships will just fly away from you, A gank geddon if he can't break your tank can't fly away if you have him scrambled (u can tank like 1000-1100 dps and have a distrupter on) A gank or tank absolution tipically have no speed to slow boat away with there armor rigs. Not everybody can fly away from the drake. You can eventually kill any ship that relys on cap injections if you have them scrambled and webbed (think all amarr ships and a lot of gallante). And again I included a cheap scramble web drake setup to prove this. You have to fit an mwd/ab to do this, as any half decent geddon pilot will be fasterthan the average drake by fitting one. Then you need to fit a webber, because the geddon pilot will just approach the gate, where 90% of the fights take part and jump while your still aggroed. That leaves you with 3 Med slots for tanking. Hoorray, what tank? Originally by: Tibrius Archer All the people who belive in tank forever in anyshape or form need to go back and read some of the Dev blogs. All people that whine about forever lasting tanks should sit in one, feel themselves it is total crap for everyday pvp and just stfu. Tanking forever and logging! yeah baby. Your MINDLESS. Read the Dev blogs. Clearly no expreiance. NO NO NO geddon pilot in the world has a MWD abolutly none. thats because it can't fit with one with 7 lasers and a large repper. Ok so don't rep. fine it then fits. Now you have 20% less cap and with no repper you have to gank and thus cannot power your guns. Can't use ammar smaller mega guns either and have a sort of gallante blaster like setup either as the short range pulse can't track. And still use too much cap can't inject not enough high slots. I think the argument made by caladri people that the passive tak is not good enough because they can't do 500+ dps and MWD and webb scramble is nuts!. Every setup is a comprimise. The passive drakes tank using no cap to tank and tanking factors above other ships in its class and above its class or more than pay off. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:31:00 - [185] Edited by: kill0rbunny on 09/05/2007 13:28:35 My conclusion then is not that drake is uber, but that armageddon is sucking badly. Ok, noticed. Then please post in that 100 pages long amarr whine threads there are as your whining about the drake makes no sense at all. Your char looks minmatarish. Then why don't you fly them matar ships and leave the crappy geddon alone? Even the fat mael gets faster than a drake.
Arakidias	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:49:00 - [186] Jesus, this thread is so overflowing with false naval history that i don't even know where to begin with. 'Shaurnhorst' (sic!) being called a pocket battleship. Someone saying that battlecruisers evolved out of armored cruisers, no doubt quoted from wikipedia. Someone implying that no BC ever engaged an enemy battleship willingly. I quit reading after the third page. And to make this post on-topic. The best way to win a battle with a passive tanked drake is just to warp away if you can't break its tank. It's not like it's going to hurt you or scramble you. If it could (fitting BCU's and tackling gear) you could easily break its tank as well. Coming in close second is the option of pinning the drake down and calling in a friendly torp raven.
Liang Nuren Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:02:00 - [187] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/05/2007 17:00:14 Originally by: "Tibrius Archer" You have gimped the Passive tank alot. I duno waht skills your using. Even this gimped shield tank is too much as its a tank factors times better than other ships. A maxxed 3! armor repper criuser gets about 90 hp/s that goes to 270dps asumming average 67% resistance. And he would have his capped eaten very fast by 3 reppers yet still cannot catch the passive tank. Ok a hargbringer with 4 reppers and faction ENAM's can repp as much your drake. Sounds fair does't it. A Myrm with 3 medium reps can do, but whould have no cap left in no time. I agree shield boosting should rep more. But the passive tank uses no cap! I freely acknowledge that I "gimped" the passive drake's tank a bit to give it some PVP ability, however I still don't see this ship being the 1v1 pvp king. Incidently, I can get 150 dual rep raw HP/S out of a rigged Myrmidon with BC4, and most resists through the roof. 2x MAR2, 1x DCU2, 3x EAMN2 (I'm at work or I'd post specifics). It's not quite as good as the Drake's tank, but then again, it does alot more damage. It probably evens out in the end. As much as it pains me to say it (because I fly Gallente ships), the Drake is fine. I do, however, still find it very amusing how people get all hot and bothered when people suggest nerfing it. ;-) Liang Edit: Oh, and the skills were level 5 on tank, and 4 on alll support (including AWU4, compensations, missile skills, etc). Edit2: I'd still like someone experienced with the drake to comment on the setup I posted above. I know it's not the most amazing setup, but it should do passably. My opinions are my own, and do not in any way reflect the beliefs of my corp/alliance.
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:24:00 - [188] Originally by: Arakidias Jesus, this thread is so overflowing with false naval history that i don't even know where to begin with. 'Shaurnhorst' (sic!) being called a pocket battleship. Someone saying that battlecruisers evolved out of armored cruisers, no doubt quoted from wikipedia. Someone implying that no BC ever engaged an enemy battleship willingly. I quit reading after the third page. And to make this post on-topic. The best way to win a battle with a passive tanked drake is just to warp away if you can't break its tank. It's not like it's going to hurt you or scramble you. If it could (fitting BCU's and tackling gear) you could easily break its tank as well. Coming in close second is the option of pinning the drake down and calling in a friendly torp raven. My Navel history is quite accurate. I have not stated only widley accepted opinions. My rushed spelling of a warship I admit was ropey.Many people call it, and its sister ship pocket battleships in the UK. Navel classes vary somewhat in country naming conventions the germans never called it a pocket battleship. I read somewhere that the UK miss names serveral american ship classes today lol! We use the first ship in its class when the americans use the first ship to have its keel first layed down or something. (one way or the other round). I am very open to discuss navel and military history sometime in another thread. I have got into it somewhat more since doing my uni-degree in liverpool. On a side point i know some guy whos the nephew of Grand Admiral jelico Quite sweet that. Back to topic anyhow. You need to read the thread more The "... passive drake can't scramble or tackle..." argument has been blown out already. Even in a very useful pvp setup with a passive tank on it can out tank the other battlecriusers np by not just fractions by integer multiples. If I was at my home PC I would run another quick fit with 3 mid slots free and see what passive tanking I get. Problaby around 500+ dps I guestimate that given you can have 770hp/s with 2 slots free. Ok now it can't tank a decent battleship but its still tanking a unfair amount all things considered. Dual repp Domi dual/rep mega are battleships and can tank only 400 - 500. And thats not for long at all. A dual repper myrm tanks under 200hp/s. I mean with an amazing cap free tank how many things do you want on the mids before you consider it acceptable? Do you not realise t1 gallante ships with exception celestis/domi don't have more than 4 mids. Most have 3. just look at the amarr!. with lasers and blasters web is not a choice unless you like loosing to t1 assualt ships and ANY criuser pilot that can click orbit. Its seems people don't think a last forever tank is too strong unless it can ECM MWD Web distrupt sensor boost... Nobody can do this caladri boys. I am sorry. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:39:00 - [189] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/05/2007 17:00:14 Originally by: "Tibrius Archer" You have gimped the Passive tank alot. I duno waht skills your using. Even this gimped shield tank is too much as its a tank factors times better than other ships. A maxxed 3! armor repper criuser gets about 90 hp/s that goes to 270dps asumming average 67% resistance. And he would have his capped eaten very fast by 3 reppers yet still cannot catch the passive tank. Ok a hargbringer with 4 reppers and faction ENAM's can repp as much your drake. Sounds fair does't it. A Myrm with 3 medium reps can do, but whould have no cap left in no time. I agree shield boosting should rep more. But the passive tank uses no cap! I freely acknowledge that I "gimped" the passive drake's tank a bit to give it some PVP ability, however I still don't see this ship being the 1v1 pvp king. Incidently, I can get 150 dual rep raw HP/S out of a rigged Myrmidon with BC4, and most resists through the roof. 2x MAR2, 1x DCU2, 3x EAMN2 (I'm at work or I'd post specifics). It's not quite as good as the Drake's tank, but then again, it does alot more damage. It probably evens out in the end. As much as it pains me to say it (because I fly Gallente ships), the Drake is fine. I do, however, still find it very amusing how people get all hot and bothered when people suggest nerfing it. ;-) Liang Edit: Oh, and the skills were level 5 on tank, and 4 on alll support (including AWU4, compensations, missile skills, etc). Edit2: I'd still like someone experienced with the drake to comment on the setup I posted above. I know it's not the most amazing setup, but it should do passably. The drake tank u posted was lower than mine mainly I think cause of your baslitic control instead of shield recharge rely2. Take that of accept standard damge and your tank will shoot back up to 500+ hp/s So with rage kinetics you get damage not far of a myrm that can be adjusted in type if needs be unlike a myrm. (You got pretors drones on and a vaga shows its night night or Kin or thermal drones and a demios shows up) Also the myrm tanks with dual reppers with rigs 450hp/s assuming about average 70% resistance on armor and that your 150 raw dps figure is accurate). Still less than the drake and not CAP free. Should really stay away from using the myrm in examples as that needs its shield fixing too. Needs its whole outlook fixing. Also it needs NOS fixing. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
Exlegion New Light KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:07:00 - [190] So what do you suggest the Drake gets in return for this nerf you advocate? Or is this just another I'm rock. scissors is fine. nerf paper. kind of thread? The Drake is quite possibly the only ship with potential to be 100% immune to Nos, sacrificing in return fire power. But you insist on having specifically the Drake nerfed because in your opinion it is the better of all the battlecruisers. I'm willing to bet you don't have a problem with the Rifter being quite possibly the best PVP ship from all the frigs given that you're Minnie. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru

AegriSomnia Caldari Aegis Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:19:00 - [191] Originally by: kill0rbunny Edited by: kill0rbunny on 09/05/2007 13:28:35 My conclusion then is not that drake is uber, but that armageddon is sucking badly. Ok, noticed. Then please post in that 100 pages long amarr whine threads there are as your whining about the drake makes no sense at all. Your char looks minmatarish. Then why don't you fly them matar ships and leave the crappy geddon alone? Even the fat mael gets faster than a drake. This is really the most valid statement made so far. I know a guy who loses more ships than anyone else in the corp, and he flies AMARR. Hes always losing BS. Doesnt bother him because hes got the ISK, but its all properly fitted, and he pops more than anyone else. Tiberius, maybe the recharge rate needs some adjustment, but I dont think it will ever be done to a point that satisfies anyone. Either CCP completely neuters passive tanking (to fix BOTH the Drake and Myr) and they ** off half the population, or they make a slight adjustment, and the other half of the populations gets **ed. I think you are for option #1. Complete neuter of passive tank. The issue here goes back to my original post in this thread. RESOURCEFUL, INTELLIGENT, WELL-TRAINED pilots are ALWAYS going to figure out a way. Too many mods with too many possibilities not to. I think it sucks you call for these people to be forcefull handicapped by CCP. I have only been playing EVE for 4 months,I fly a Drake for mission running, would NOT use it for PVP, as I can do more DPS in my Gallente ships (yes, I've trained both). I just kinda feel like you are pointing at less than 1% of Drake pilots, who are vastly over-skilled to be flying the Drake, and can not only AFFORD but have trained to use tech 2 gear AND RIGS (which I cant do yet), and making a federal case out of it. The Drakes you point at as being unbreakable (which they really arent) are so few and far between, THEY DONT DESERVE a COMPLETE NEUTER. STACKING PENALTY FOR SPR and SLIGHTLY ADJUST RECHARGE TIME ON THE DRAKE/MYR. This is the only fair solution. NERF AMARR!!!!!!!
Arakidias	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:24:00 - [192] Originally by: Tibrius Archer Edited by: Tibrius Archer on 09/05/2007 17:57:39 Originally by: Arakidias Jesus, this thread is so overflowing with false naval history that i don't even know where to begin with. 'Shaurnhorst' (sic!) being called a pocket battleship. Someone saying that battlecruisers evolved out of armored cruisers, no doubt quoted from wikipedia. Someone implying that no BC ever engaged an enemy battleship willingly. I quit reading after the third page. And to make this post on-topic. The best way to win a battle with a passive tanked drake is just to warp away if you can't break its tank. It's not like it's going to hurt you or scramble you. If it could (fitting BCU's and tackling gear) you could easily break its tank as well. Coming in close second is the option of pinning the drake down and calling in a friendly torp raven. My Navel history is quite accurate. I have not stated only widley accepted opinions. My rushed spelling of a warship I admit was ropey.Many people call it, and its sister ship pocket battleships in the UK. Navel classes vary somewhat in country naming conventions the germans never called it a pocket battleship. The germans called Scharnhorst and Gneisenau battleships. The Royal Navy called them battlecruisers, which they were in their own twisted sort of way. Instead of sacrificing protection for speed they sacrificed firepower. Indeed it could be said that they were the closest thing to Eve battlecruisers as they had light weaponry (when compared to battleships) but heavy armor. The Deutchland class of heavy cruisers were called pocket battleships by the Royal Navy. The Kriegsmarine called them 'armored ships', a german classification that sometimes been used for pre-dreadnought battleships or armored cruisers. They were later reclassified as heavy cruisers. Originally by: Tibrius Archer I am very open to discuss navel and military history sometime in another thread. I have got into it somewhat more since doing my uni-degree in liverpool. On a side point i know some guy whos the nephew of Grand Admiral jelico Quite sweet that. Poor old Jellicoe. He must be turning in his grave when even university graduates manage to brutalise his name so badly.
JamnOne	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:35:00 - [193] I got to thinking the other day about this issue again. My "alt" (corp mate on leave) is flying a Drake. His skills are not the best as in they are not maxed out but they are extremely high. Looking at the numbers and posts being thrown around it looks like a true uberdrake would have to have maxed skill points, the implants that affect shields and the 3 rigs. It sounds like a small part of this community has all of these requirements and because they do the rest of the community thinks the Drake is overpowered. Again - I think what needs to happen is a 1 vs 1 battle. And I don't mean go to this battle with the worst guns and ammo you got but go in there in the best setup you can this goes for the Drake pilots and those who want to nerf them and blow them up. Drakes vs BS or Dreads whatever you want to throw at the Drake. I would throw my corp mate's ship into the foray but I know it will lose to a BS. Not enough skill points, not enough implants and no rigs. But he can somewhat survive a lvl 4 mission. That and he died already to Megathron.
AegriSomnia Caldari Aegis Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.09 20:22:00 - [194] Originally by: Arakidias Originally by: Tibrius Archer Edited by: Tibrius Archer on 09/05/2007 17:57:39 Originally by: Arakidias Jesus, this thread is so overflowing with false naval history that i don't even know where to begin with. 'Shaurnhorst' (sic!) being called a pocket battleship. Someone saying that battlecruisers evolved out of armored cruisers, no doubt quoted from wikipedia. Someone implying that no BC ever engaged an enemy battleship willingly. I quit reading after the third page. And to make this post on-topic. The best way to win a battle with a passive tanked drake is just to warp away if you can't break its tank. It's not like it's going to hurt you or scramble you. If it could (fitting BCU's and tackling gear) you could easily break its tank as well. Coming in close second is the option of pinning the drake down and calling in a friendly torp raven. My Navel history is quite accurate. I have not stated only widley accepted opinions. My rushed spelling of a warship I admit was ropey.Many people call it, and its sister ship pocket battleships in the UK. Navel classes vary somewhat in country naming conventions the germans never called it a pocket battleship. The germans called Scharnhorst and Gneisenau battleships. The Royal Navy called them battlecruisers, which they were in their own twisted sort of way. Instead of sacrificing protection for speed they sacrificed firepower. Indeed it could be said that they were the closest thing to Eve battlecruisers as they had light weaponry (when compared to battleships) but heavy armor. The Deutchland class of heavy cruisers were called pocket battleships by the Royal Navy. The Kriegsmarine called them 'armored ships', a german classification that sometimes been used for pre-dreadnought battleships or armored cruisers. They were later reclassified as heavy cruisers. Originally by: Tibrius Archer I am very open to discuss navel and military history sometime in another thread. I have got into it somewhat more since doing my uni-degree in liverpool. On a side point i know some guy whos the nephew of Grand Admiral jelico Quite sweet that. Poor old Jellicoe. He must be turning in his grave when even university graduates manage to brutalise his name so badly. Intellectuals are my favorite people While I find your discussion utterly captivating (really!), I dont know how drawing comparisons between real life and a FANTASY MMORPG has any validity as a point in this arguement. Its still interesting, though.
AegriSomnia Caldari Aegis Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.09 20:47:00 - [195] 200th post on this thread!!!! WOOT!!! NERF AMARR!!!!!
Arakidias	Posted - 2007.05.09 20:52:00 - [196] Originally by: AegriSomnia Intellectuals are my favorite people While I find your discussion utterly captivating (really!), I dont know how drawing comparisons between real life and a FANTASY MMORPG has any validity as a point in this arguement. Its still interesting, though. You're right. It doesn't have any validity. But I just couldn't stand the stuff being fed as 'naval history' here. I guess one could argue that, as CCP atleast tries to keep some similarity between ship classes in Eve and ship classes from history, it is somehow relevant. But that's really pushing it.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.05.09 21:08:00 - [197] The main point of most of the whining is that a drake is "overpowered" because "I can't kill one by myself." The same was said about passive tanked command ships. Guess what? This is an MMO. That means you have friends help you. The drake surviving the fight isn't a win, its a tie. Its a ship built not to lose, but also not to win. And to get the true tank, we're talking about maxed skills and 1 bil isk. I don't see a problem with that. If someone wants to PvP in a 1 bil isk ship, more power to them. I have friends, so its just more loot for me. Even the so called tank/pvp setups don't put out enough dps to break most other BC and BS's tanks. Plus, passive tanking is one of the few valid counters to nos heavy PvP. Its a build that protects against it. You won't kill the enemy ship, but at least they won't drain your tank down and pummel you to death as you try to do damage with missiles. Also, whats the point in arguing 1v1. Does that even happen anymore? Small gang is more common (well, 10v1 is actually more common, but I'll ignore that for now). What does a passive tanked drake really add to the gang? Not much. If one of my friends showed up in one, unless we need someone to tank sentry guns, I'd send them back to pick another ship/build. As for passive tanking in general, of course command ships have ungodly tanks. They're supposed to. They command fleets. They need to stay alive against enemy fire long enough to actually command. If someone has the large amount of skills needed to fly a command ship well, good for them. If they have the billion isk to really pimp it out, even better. A command ship is useless without the ability to survive long enough to contribute bonuses to the fleet.
AegriSomnia Caldari Aegis Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.09 21:22:00 - [198] Originally by: Rid*** Valer* As for passive tanking in general, of course command ships have ungodly tanks. They're supposed to. They command fleets. They need to stay alive against enemy fire long enough to actually command. If someone has the large amount of skills needed to fly a command ship well, good for them. If they have the billion isk to really pimp it out, even better. A command ship is useless without the ability to survive long enough to contribute bonuses to the fleet. Just a quick story about this. My corp and I went to go bust a gate camp in our home system, consisting of about 10 ships, we had about 10 and we set off to make things go BOOM. We had done some recon on the "enemy", and discovered they had a command ship, namely an "Astarte"[sp?]. The gang boss called primary on it, and we warped in. I was in a Thorax (my fav small gang ship) and (luckily) after exiting warp, was right on top of the Astarte. Locked him up, put the guns on him, released the drones, and had them "Engage Target". I then set my orbit distance to 2500 meters, optimum range for the blasters, and sat back. By the time I had done all of this, The Astarte was already on structure. I had barely had a chance to get my setup rolling before the Boss started calling another target. POINT = Nothing is indestructable given the proper circumstances. Proper planning beats max skills/billion isk rigs/unbreakable tanks 100% of the time.
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:18:00 - [199] Originally by: Tibrius Archer Originally by: Spacer John Option 1: I will make this entire argument very easy for you. Answer this question and you win the argument, don't and you lose it: How does a ship that can tank a lot of dmg pose enough of a threat to warrant a nerf? Countless people attest that there are numerous things that gimp the Drake in PVP. How does the recharge rate of the Drake eclipse all other significant difficulties it encounters for PVP and makes it unbalanced enough that they need to recode the ship design? I don't care that you feel that the number of hp it can recharge blah blah sounds unbalanced to you. Maybe you are obsessive compulsive and can't stand that it doesn't "fit" in line with the numbers other ships put out in that one area of ship attributes. That feeling you get in your gut has no bearing on how the ship as a WHOLE will perform out in open PVP in EVE. Tuxford i think him. Said in the Dev blogs before the HP increase that they above all things do not want to create any unbreakable tanks. The drake qualifies. As see this as meaning 1v1 because outside that even a Avatar with faction mods can go down. You just listed off 3 or 4 ships that can break this tank solo Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:19:00 - [200] Originally by: Tibrius Archer Edited by: Tibrius Archer on 09/05/2007 10:59:16 Originally by: Liang Nuren Assumes appropriate skills, and most support skills to level 4 (including missiles, and BC) Highs: 7 Heavy Missile Launcher 2, 1 Sm Nos Meds: 3 LSE2, Shield Recharger 2, Thm Amp 2, Warp scram Lows: BCU2, 3 SPR2 Drones: 5x Hobgoblin 2 Capacitor: Regens 4/sec, needs 3/sec Optional Implants: kva1000 (3 mil, 3% shield amount), kya1000 (4 mil, 3% recharge rate) Tankable DPS [without implants, with implants] EM (20% resist): 279, 296 Exp (68% resist): 696, 740 Kin (52% resist): 466, 494 Thm (64.8% resist): 635, 673 Scourge Heavy Missiles: 300 DPS Scourge Fury: 337 DPS Most people carry Thermal damage, and it seems to be exceedingly common in PVP (You're banking on that by only carrying a passive thm amp). Your tank can be greatly improved by swapping out the passive thermal amp with a T2 Invuln field, or by losing a bit of damage (337 to 288 DPS on Scourge Fury), so I'd say this has a bit of flexibility in your setup. I would probably go for tank over gank on a Drake though. In all resists except EM, you can permatank most common Domi and Myrmidon setups. You will not tank any harbingers anytime soon. You will will wtfpwn a Myrmidon, and you can definitely tank sentry guns with this. Even if you made this an active hardener setup, you could still tank sentry guns long enough to solo kill a freighter in lowsec (~8 mins). Note: Yes, I used Quickfit's average damage calculation. This is about as good as I can make the Drake run on a PVP setup, though it can be outfitted it to tank almost anything. Something slightly more amusing: Drake Heavy Missile Launcher II [40xScourge Fury Heavy Missile] Heavy Missile Launcher II [40xScourge Fury Heavy Missile] Heavy Missile Launcher II [40xScourge Fury Heavy Missile] Heavy Missile Launcher II [40xScourge Fury Heavy Missile] Heavy Missile Launcher II [40xScourge Fury Heavy Missile] Heavy Missile Launcher II [40xScourge Fury Heavy Missile] Heavy Missile Launcher II [40xScourge Fury Heavy Missile] Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Shield Recharger II Invulnerability Field II J5 Prototype Warp Inhibitor I Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Rigs : Core Defence Field Purger I \ Core Defence Field Purger I \ Core Defence Field Purger I \ Hobgoblin II Hobgoblin II Hobgoblin II Hobgoblin II Hobgoblin II 16493 shield, 237.34/s, E/T/K/Ex=43/55/66/77 4882 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/44/25/10 3515.625 cap, +3.75/s, -7.57/s 168.0 m/s 337.5 DPS You can run the scram and hardener for 40 minutes before running out of cap, doing 337.5 DPS, and tanking (424 EM, 1060 Exp, 706 Kin, 530 Thm, 605 Avg). There are probably better setups. For the curious, you'll do 280 DPS, with an alpha around 1000 to Ogre II's, which have [fully maxed, bonused, and resisted] 785 shield HP. Praetor II's (which should be more scary, honestly), have a whopping 560 shields [Again, fully maxed, bonused, and resisted]. I'd say the Drake isn't a bad PVP ship, and I'm sure there's better setups. Is it TRULY worthy of a nerf? Probably not by itself, but passive shield tanking probably is, with the way command ships use it. Liang A maxxed 3! armor repper criuser gets about 90 hp/s that goes to 270dps asumming average 67% resistance. And he would have his capped eaten very fast by 3 reppers yet still cannot catch the passive tank. Ok a hargbringer with 4 reppers and faction ENAM's can repp as much your drake. Sounds fair does't it. A Myrm with 3 medium reps can do, but whould have no cap left in no time. I agree shield boosting should rep more. But the passive tank uses no cap! That is a huge exageration by any means Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.

Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:21:00 - [201] --"Edit2: I'd still like someone experienced with the drake to comment on the setup I posted above. I know it's not the most amazing setup, but it should do passably. My opinions are my own, and do not in any way reflect the beliefs of my corp/alliance."--- Liang, I use a very similar setup on my Drake in PVP but I put 2 BCU IIs on mine. It gimps the tank even more but gives me a greater chance of killing a scrambler before his buddies come and *****me. That way when they take me down at least I was able to take one theirs as well.
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:21:00 - [202] Originally by: Tibrius Archer Edited by: Tibrius Archer on 09/05/2007 12:16:57 Originally by: Augeas I have a rigged, T2 fitted passive Drake. But I've only used it in pvp about twice, because it's completely useless, solo or in gang.Sure it can tank like hell, but solo, with only room for one tackle slot, anyone else can slowboat out of range and then warp off. Alternatively, they can get a mate to join in while I'm pinned helpless and (albeit slowly!) kill me. In gang, you'd just be left to last and then killed. Maxed passive Drakes in pvp are useful as bait and for the surprise factor, and nothing else. Boost Drake passive tanks please. Problem is 1v1. Gang arguments are no good when measuring the nerf bat. We all no the NOS mym and Nos domi are over powered but in a gang fight they would just get Ganked in a few seconds. So by your logic they are balanced. U also say ships will just fly away from you, A gank geddon if he can't break your tank can't fly away if you have him scrambled (u can tank like 1000-1100 dps and have a distrupter on) A gank or tank absolution tipically have no speed to slow boat away with there armor rigs. Not everybody can fly away from the drake. You can eventually kill any ship that relys on cap injections if you have them scrambled and webbed (think all amarr ships and a lot of gallante). And again I included a cheap scramble web drake setup to prove this. All the people who belive in tank forever in anyshape or form need to go back and read some of the Dev blogs. You cannot tank that much em and thermal unless specificly tanked for it, get it through your head, the drake does not tank em and thermal to that level, hell even for explosive and kinetic it barely tanks that much unless specificly for it Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:29:00 - [203] You keep giveing this 770 hp/s recharge rate with 2 free midslots, please inform me of said set up, becuase i hit about 260-360 with 2 shield recharger 2's 3 shield extender 2's 4 shield power relay 2's and 3 recharge rigs Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:40:00 - [204] ---"Erm... every other caladri ship does already excel at sniping. Caladri Assualt frigs can snipe over 100KM!. Moa and Egal, enough said. The ferrox enough said . the rohk you mentioned. it seems already long range railguns is the secondary caldari attcak trait. Like the gallante ability for good droning. It seems the caldari have the longest range snipers in every class. Seems it is a trait, so whats your point? The ability to tank is on the other hand is race wide. So my comment about the option to prehaps make passive shield tanking an option on all caldari ships was very on the ball. Another spacer John post that does not actually rebuff any one of my points but serve's to highlight he is not thinking."--- EVERY other ship in Caldari does NOT excel at sniping. Many do, just as more than just the Drake passive shield tanks well. Which post shows Im not thinking? In your OP you asked passive shield tank pilots for education. We've given it to you over and over again, its not our problem you refuse our education. If the Drake is a ship that does OK in PVP, how is it "bugged" exactly? Because you think the devs wouldn't want it? Let them design their game, the Drake isn't wreaking havoc on their PVP so at worst case scenario isn't THAT broken. You also haven't educated me on how a %5 boost to shield hp and regen stregenths it by %33. AND paragrah after paragraph you haven't explained why as a whole the passive shield tank on the Drake should force the devs to change it. It's a middle of the road PVP ship at best, end of story. Keep crying if you want to.
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.10 00:16:00 - [205] Originally by: Exlegion So what do you suggest the Drake gets in return for this nerf you advocate? Or is this just another I'm rock. scissors is fine. nerf paper. kind of thread? The Drake is quite possibly the only ship with potential to be 100% immune to Nos, sacrificing in return fire power. But you insist on having specifically the Drake nerfed because in your opinion it is the better of all the battlecruisers. I'm willing to bet you don't have a problem with the Rifter being quite possibly the best PVP ship from all the frigs given that you're Minnie. Ironically I only have minmatar frigate level so I have never flown a rifter 2:) Well the drake should really have a ROF bonus instead of a kin missile bonus. Thats fair. But your missile damage with all its boons(No anti missile EW modules like the Tracking distrupter any choice of damage.) is fair. The drake has good damage as missile have to have that level of damage to maintain a relative balance. If you want missles to get say another 15%-20%? damage bonus up to say electron blaster levels then I want my electron blasters then too also top hit things at 20km and not consume cap. I also want them to be able to fire and hit no matter my own transversal so I can too MWD and AB around people outside of web range raining death. Missiles have to have lower DPS. I can well see how crap the damage on caldari ships and the Drake may look when you peak at say brutix or Harbringer damage output but you got to then put your self in a hargbringers shoes and look back no cap and if it runs in to another setup than the pilot exactly loaded out for its toast. I admit when get pwned by a Raven that tracking distrupts me and torps me with its preloaded 2 EM torps 5 Explosive its over powered but then I look at my advantages against a raven thats prehaps expecting to fight another raven or is fitted out more generally (say a standard tank with distrupter and guns).And then I think of all the times I have annihlated that balanced raven and to my self ahhh well.. But yes a ROF bonus instead of the kin damage bonus. When the devs fix NOS it will be a real justice to the caladri as they sufffer badly as they never have the grid or the slots to fit a cap injector. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.10 00:23:00 - [206] Originally by: Dark Kavar Originally by: Tibrius Archer Originally by: Spacer John Option 1: I will make this entire argument very easy for you. Answer this question and you win the argument, don't and you lose it: How does a ship that can tank a lot of dmg pose enough of a threat to warrant a nerf? Countless people attest that there are numerous things that gimp the Drake in PVP. How does the recharge rate of the Drake eclipse all other significant difficulties it encounters for PVP and makes it unbalanced enough that they need to recode the ship design? I don't care that you feel that the number of hp it can recharge blah blah sounds unbalanced to you. Maybe you are obsessive compulsive and can't stand that it doesn't "fit" in line with the numbers other ships put out in that one area of ship attributes. That feeling you get in your gut has no bearing on how the ship as a WHOLE will perform out in open PVP in EVE. Tuxford i think him. Said in the Dev blogs before the HP increase that they above all things do not want to create any unbreakable tanks. The drake qualifies. As see this as meaning 1v1 because outside that even a Avatar with faction mods can go down. You just listed off 3 or 4 ships that can break this tank solo 3 ships that out class it. The ships I mention could not not be flown by anyone that unless there crazy. These gank gun setups I mention CAN and HAVE gone down to thoraxs and orbiting figs. Still as I think Tuxford said, no unbreable 1v1 tanks. And the 1200+ hp/s Drake tanks are that. I don't think you really no how much of a tank that it. We are talking like all the fighters from a carrier. (I think the thantos does about 1800dps drones + fighters). I am sure the devs are will not allow any non capital ship with a T2 setup to be able to tank the gate guns forever( as the drake can) Ever since the M00 camps of old they have been dead against flouting of game mechanics in that respect. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
Eva Archer	Posted - 2007.05.10 00:24:00 - [207] Originally by: Dark Kavar Originally by: Tibrius Archer Edited by: Tibrius Archer on 09/05/2007 12:16:57 Originally by: Augeas I have a rigged, T2 fitted passive Drake. But I've only used it in pvp about twice, because it's completely useless, solo or in gang.Sure it can tank like hell, but solo, with only room for one tackle slot, anyone else can slowboat out of range and then warp off. Alternatively, they can get a mate to join in while I'm pinned helpless and (albeit slowly!) kill me. In gang, you'd just be left to last and then killed. Maxed passive Drakes in pvp are useful as bait and for the surprise factor, and nothing else. Boost Drake passive tanks please. Problem is 1v1. Gang arguments are no good when measuring the nerf bat. We all no the NOS mym and Nos domi are over powered but in a gang fight they would just get Ganked in a few seconds. So by your logic they are balanced. U also say ships will just fly away from you, A gank geddon if he can't break your tank can't fly away if you have him scrambled (u can tank like 1000-1100 dps and have a distrupter on) A gank or tank absolution tipically have no speed to slow boat away with there armor rigs. Not everybody can fly away from the drake. You can eventually kill any ship that relys on cap injections if you have them scrambled and webbed (think all amarr ships and a lot of gallante). And again I included a cheap scramble web drake setup to prove this. All the people who belive in tank forever in anyshape or form need to go back and read some of the Dev blogs. You cannot tank that much em and thermal unless specificly tanked for it, get it through your head, the drake does not tank em and thermal to that level, hell even for explosive and kinetic it barely tanks that much unless specificly for it
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.10 00:25:00 - [208] Originally by: Tibrius Archer Originally by: Exlegion So what do you suggest the Drake gets in return for this nerf you advocate? Or is this just another I'm rock. scissors is fine. nerf paper. kind of thread? The Drake is quite possibly the only ship with potential to be 100% immune to Nos, sacrificing in return fire power. But you insist on having specifically the Drake nerfed because in your opinion it is the better of all the battlecruisers. I'm willing to bet you don't have a problem with the Rifter being quite possibly the best PVP ship from all the frigs given that you're Minnie. Ironically I only have minmatar frigate level so I have never flown a rifter 2:) Well the drake should really have a ROF bonus instead of a kin missile bonus. Thats fair. But your missile damage with all its boons(No anti missile EW modules like the Tracking distrupter any choice of damage.) is fair. The drake originally had a ROF bonus, but people whined that the dps was too high from heavy assualt missiles with that bonus Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.10 00:26:00 - [209] Originally by: Dark Kavar Originally by: Tibrius Archer Edited by: Tibrius Archer on 09/05/2007 12:16:57 Originally by: Augeas I have a rigged, T2 fitted passive Drake. But I've only used it in pvp about twice, because it's completely useless, solo or in gang.Sure it can tank like hell, but solo, with only room for one tackle slot, anyone else can slowboat out of range and then warp off. Alternatively, they can get a mate to join in while I'm pinned helpless and (albeit slowly!) kill me. In gang, you'd just be left to last and then killed. Maxed passive Drakes in pvp are useful as bait and for the surprise factor, and nothing else. Boost Drake passive tanks please. Problem is 1v1. Gang arguments are no good when measuring the nerf bat. We all no the NOS mym and Nos domi are over powered but in a gang fight they would just get Ganked in a few seconds. So by your logic they are balanced. U also say ships will just fly away from you, A gank geddon if he can't break your tank can't fly away if you have him scrambled (u can tank like 1000-1100 dps and have a distrupter on) A gank or tank absolution tipically have no speed to slow boat away with there armor rigs. Not everybody can fly away from the drake. You can eventually kill any ship that relys on cap injections if you have them scrambled and webbed (think all amarr ships and a lot of gallante). And again I included a cheap scramble web drake setup to prove this. All the people who belive in tank forever in anyshape or form need to go back and read some of the Dev blogs. You cannot tank that much em and thermal unless specificly tanked for it, get it through your head, the drake does not tank em and thermal to that level, hell even for explosive and kinetic it barely tanks that much unless specificly for it I am not lying. I would not be foolish enough and invite redicule by posting numbers I made up and that could not be reproduced in quickfit on the forums. I will applogise for any numbers but before me that are proven wrong through my rounding. I also will applogise for any numbers that are a little out cause I am using quick fit not a pen and calc. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
Tibrius Archer Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.10 00:30:00 - [210] Originally by: Dark Kavar Originally by: Tibrius Archer Originally by: Exlegion So what do you suggest the Drake gets in return for this nerf you advocate? Or is this just another I'm rock. scissors is fine. nerf paper. kind of thread? The Drake is quite possibly the only ship with potential to be 100% immune to Nos, sacrificing in return fire power. But you insist on having specifically the Drake nerfed because in your opinion it is the better of all the battlecruisers. I'm willing to bet you don't have a problem with the Rifter being quite possibly the best PVP ship from all the frigs given that you're Minnie. Ironically I only have minmatar frigate level so I have never flown a rifter 2:) Well the drake should really have a ROF bonus instead of a kin missile bonus. Thats fair. But your missile damage with all its boons(No anti missile EW modules like the Tracking distrupter any choice of damage.) is fair. The drake originally had a ROF bonus, but people whined that the dps was too high from heavy assualt missiles with that bonus i did not know that. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"

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