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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:20:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Kusanagi2501 But NO, NO, NO, escorting in high-sec!
It's up to you if you want to be escorted or not. You'll probably get killed sooner or later if you don't, but the choice is yours.
And... which noobs can fly freighters?
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
LittleTerror
Caldari kleptomaniacs
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:21:00 -
[152]
Its real simple, scouts to check other side of gates befor frieghter jumps in, also an escort of battleships all fitted with as many remote repairs as possible, my god people are just so stupid and whiney little *****es |
Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:22:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 05/05/2007 16:19:41
It's really not that hard to not stick your high value/low volume items into Freighters and use them exclusively for their purpose - hauling high volumes of goods.
So even if you do die with your 1-man escort/scout/webber (probably just your alt), nobody makes a profit and you don't lose terribly much either.
They're just not super-secure containers the way they've been used lately. They're vessels for hauling huge amounts of stuff either without compressing it or while being unable to (finished goods and all that).
And if on some rare occasion you have a Freighter full of actual high value items, you can probably be bothered to escort it. That's far from the norm though, most people have their billions tied up in less than 4000m3 worth of stuff, which simply shouldn't go into a Freighter.
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:25:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Ki An Lotsa talk...
Let me give you some facts.
Facts:
Investments: (low prices, similar to selfbuilt)
Investment needed for 15 gank domis: 750mil (at 50 mil each)
Investment for freighter: 850 mil
Disbalance: minimum 100 mil (if freighter was empty - if it was not, all cargo adds to disbalance - and as is in the nature of freighters, they may have a lot of cargo)
Chances of winning battle:
Gankfleet: 99% (They can loose if they were foolish enough not to test on SiSi before going ahead)
Freighter: 1% (If the attackers were extremely foolish as said above)
Disbalance: 99% in favour of attackers
Validity of scouts:
Low.
Problem a) Scouting for a freighter run in high-sec = -10 on the fun scale. Playing a game should be fun though.
Problem b) Hired noob scouts can and should not be trusted when moving valuable cargo.
Problem c) If the attackers are wise, the might have a hauler sitting at the gank gate, with the ganksquad in a safe alligned for warp-in when a freighter with valuable cargo comes along. The scout will see a safe gate and will not warn the freighter pilot.
Solution to all of the above - as many have said:
No insurance for ships destroyed by concord.
This won't stop the high sec ganks completely, but it will even the field a lil.
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:28:00 -
[155]
Well, I think we should give it a rest here. Basically you are just repeating the justification lines and tactics introduced by the Privateers, and I don't see why pilots should be left without any protection at all against a game mechanics abuse, besides teaming up.
Give it a bit time, and we will see who is right.
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:34:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Soulita
Let me give you some facts.
Facts:
Investments: (low prices, similar to selfbuilt)
Investment needed for 15 gank domis: 750mil (at 50 mil each)
Investment for freighter: 850 mil
Disbalance: minimum 100 mil (if freighter was empty - if it was not, all cargo adds to disbalance - and as is in the nature of freighters, they may have a lot of cargo)
Add two combat fitted escorts to the freighters side please.
Originally by: Soulita
Chances of winning battle:
Gankfleet: 99% (They can loose if they were foolish enough not to test on SiSi before going ahead)
Freighter: 1% (If the attackers were extremely foolish as said above)
Disbalance: 99% in favour of attackers
If above mentioned combat fitted escorts are present, there will never be a combat if the gankfleet has any brains, and if they don't, both sides will lose.
Originally by: Soulita
Validity of scouts:
Low.
Problem a) Scouting for a freighter run in high-sec = -10 on the fun scale. Playing a game should be fun though.
Tough ****. Lots of things are boring in this game. I hate mission running for isk to support my PvP, but I have to. I hate mining, but if I want to build my own stuff, I have to. You may hate to scout, but if you want your freighter to reach safety, you have to.
Originally by: Soulita
Problem b) Hired noob scouts can and should not be trusted when moving valuable cargo.
Don't hire noob scout ffs! You need experienced scouts. I am sure your corp can supply you with some, and if not, I can escort you for a moderate sum. (Hint for up-and-coming entrepreneurs: Start a freighter escort firm.)
Originally by: Soulita
Problem c) If the attackers are wise, the might have a hauler sitting at the gank gate, with the ganksquad in a safe alligned for warp-in when a freighter with valuable cargo comes along. The scout will see a safe gate and will not warn the freighter pilot.
If the attackers are wise and you have brought your two ship escort, they won't attack you.
Originally by: Soulita
Solution to all of the above - as many have said:
No insurance for ships destroyed by concord.
And if that was implemented, as many (mostly me in this thread though ), all insurance should be removed, with the possible exceptance of well escorted haulers in high sec.
Originally by: Soulita
This won't stop the high sec ganks completely, but it will even the field a lil.
The field is already even. Just because you chose to not field a goalie doesn't mean the rules should change.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:36:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Juwi Kotch Well, I think we should give it a rest here. Basically you are just repeating the justification lines and tactics introduced by the Privateers, and I don't see why pilots should be left without any protection at all against a game mechanics abuse, besides teaming up.
Give it a bit time, and we will see who is right.
Juwi Kotch
We sure will, and for the record, you are the one whining about a nerf, just as the Privateers where when they got hit.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:39:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Ki An Combat fitted escorts safe the universe... erm freighter
Care to elaborate? Please be specific.
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:39:00 -
[159]
Hmmm... where did I ever complain about the Freighter changes?
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:44:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Ki An Combat fitted escorts safe the universe... erm freighter
Care to elaborate? Please be specific.
Didn't you read the thread?
I'll go over it again:
You keep two combat fitted escorts with you when moving a freighter through high sec. Their official job starts when the freighter is popped. They then guard the wreck so that noone can loot it, until haulers can be mobilized to pick up what survived.
The unofficial, but more efficient job the escorts have is to dissuade any suicide gank on the freighter at all. After all, the suicide gankers know the flagging rules of high sec just as well as the freighter pilot, and they will know that there will be two tough opponents to take on for any ship seeking to loot the wreck. This rules out brining a freighter of their own, as it would be popped. They also know that the two escorts can pick and chose which thieves to agress, as they can shoot the thieves, but the thieves can't shoot back untill being shot.
This is very simple stuff, and it is the one true solution to this 'problem' that is already in game. The only problem with it is that it doesn't work if the freighter is in an NPC corp, but that is the pilot's problem, and not CCP's or the rest of ours.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:46:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Juwi Kotch Hmmm... where did I ever complain about the Freighter changes?
Juwi Kotch
Uhm.... in every post you made?
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:50:00 -
[162]
It looks like you read what you want to read, not what is written. I don't complain, and never have complained, about the Freighter changes, I complain about the game mechanic abuse resulting in cheap and easy suicide ganking of Freighters.
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Mozetta
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:51:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Mozetta on 05/05/2007 16:47:38
Originally by: Juwi Kotch It looks like you read what you want to read, not what is written. I don't complain, and never have complained, about the Freighter changes, I complain about the game mechanic abuse resulting in cheap and easy suicide ganking of Freighters.
Juwi Kotch
Hoookay....
/Ki
/Edit: This is Ki An #ñ&%/#ñ forums chose my secret alt again.
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:52:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 16:52:18
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Ki An Combat fitted escorts safe the universe... erm freighter
Care to elaborate? Please be specific.
Didn't you read the thread?
I'll go over it again:
You keep two combat fitted escorts with you when moving a freighter through high sec. Their official job starts when the freighter is popped. They then guard the wreck so that noone can loot it, until haulers can be mobilized to pick up what survived.
The unofficial, but more efficient job the escorts have is to dissuade any suicide gank on the freighter at all. After all, the suicide gankers know the flagging rules of high sec just as well as the freighter pilot, and they will know that there will be two tough opponents to take on for any ship seeking to loot the wreck. This rules out brining a freighter of their own, as it would be popped. They also know that the two escorts can pick and chose which thieves to agress, as they can shoot the thieves, but the thieves can't shoot back untill being shot.
This is very simple stuff, and it is the one true solution to this 'problem' that is already in game. The only problem with it is that it doesn't work if the freighter is in an NPC corp, but that is the pilot's problem, and not CCP's or the rest of ours.
/Ki
What if the two armed escorts guarding the stuff after the freighter died get attacked by 15 backup kestrels of the former gank squad?
The only argument you had against the points I gave you to think about was these 2 backup combat escorts would save the day.
By the way, I have seen freighters with escorts getting popped - now what?
Whichever way you put it, there is a problem.
The solution is easy enough, and I see no valid argument against it.
Maybe you will reply to this post and maybe not. Tbh I dont give a ****.
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.05 16:58:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Soulita What if the two armed escorts guarding the stuff after the freighter died get attacked by 15 backup kestrels of the former gank squad?
That would result in a pile of Caldari Frigate wrecks, as Concord would be at the scene setting up cordons and telling people to mind their own business.
Originally by: Soulita
The only argument you had against the points I gave you to think about was these 2 backup combat escorts would save the day.
Not that that argument isn't good enough, but if you care to read my other posts in this thread you will find more. I cba to repeat myself every page.
Originally by: Soulita By the way, I have seen freighters with escorts getting popped - now what?[/quote
Where? When? How many gankers? Did the gankers get the loot? Care to answer these questions, or should we take your word for it?
Originally by: Soulita Whichever way you put it, there is a problem.[/quote
No.
Originally by: Soulita The solution is easy enough, and I see no valid argument against it.[/quote
There are lots, but you'll have to read the friggin thread.
Originally by: Soulita Maybe you will reply to this post and maybe not. Tbh I dont give a ****.[/quote
Here's my reply. Start not giving a ****.
Originally by: Soulita Whatever people say you will make up something to counter it - be it true or not.[/quote
Yes, I am a bonafied liar, and nothing I say is true. I found a picture of you.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Chewan Mesa
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:01:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Juwi Kotch Hmmm... where did I ever complain about the Freighter changes?
Juwi Kotch
Uhm.... in every post you made?
/Ki
You know I'm totally with you, but you and the whiners are gonna go over the same facts for the next 15 pages...
I doubt there are more ways you can show your points, and I'd be as frustrated if someone goes again and again ignoring your stated facts and says "mimimi but I want it anyway".
Save your energy and do something useful with it, you cant educate carebears and whiners, its a small %tage in EVE, and hopefully CCP doesnt give in on another carebear whine.
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:02:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 17:00:48 Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 16:59:06
Originally by: Ki An Yes, I am a bonafied liar, and nothing I say is true.
Nice quoteable line. Good you said it yourself.
If you had told me that before, I would not have bothered arguing with you, as it is pointless.
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:04:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Chewan Mesa
You know I'm totally with you, but you and the whiners are gonna go over the same facts for the next 15 pages...
I doubt there are more ways you can show your points, and I'd be as frustrated if someone goes again and again ignoring your stated facts and says "mimimi but I want it anyway".
Save your energy and do something useful with it, you cant educate carebears and whiners, its a small %tage in EVE, and hopefully CCP doesnt give in on another carebear whine.
Yeah, but I'm at work and have nothing better to do...
*looks around for boss*
But, yeah, I hear ya. It's just that I get so fired up by threads such as this, and I can't contain my urge to squeeze the wee bears until they go squish with angst and anger
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Chewan Mesa
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:07:00 -
[169]
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Magnum III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:08:00 -
[170]
Yes they must of used their drones and Concord could not kill that many drones in fact they would kill the domi's 1st.
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vile56
Nubs. D-L
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:09:00 -
[171]
ki has it right on.
oh and adapt
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:12:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 17:10:17
Originally by: vile56 ki has it right on.
oh and adapt
ROFL
He is a whiner of the worst case.
No insurance payout when getting killed by concord?
Buhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu it cant beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
(It is called preemptive whining )
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:15:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Tiberyya Za
Quote: Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank.
The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor.
A freighter has how many high-slots? None is the answer is it not?
Personally, I see this as another CCP messed up by not thinking things through problem created to solve another CCP not thinking things through problem. Plus some serious back-tarded logic. A billion isk ship with no means to defend itself or harden itself? That's just plain retarded.
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:27:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Ki An
3. Those of you saying "Oh well, CCP will nerf this as they did to the Privateers", I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. CCP knew what they where doing when they introduced loot dropping freighters. The era of safe NPC freighters is over. The new era takes a modicum of coordination.
Ha, ha, ha. I've been playing, main and alt, for six months. In that time I've learned quite well just how little CCP thinks through anything... It's a high-tech feudal society more along the lines of Somalia or some other war-torn tribal-government african nation than anything else.
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Kion
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:33:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Kion on 05/05/2007 17:33:44
Personally, I see this as another CCP messed up by not thinking things through problem created to solve another CCP not thinking things through problem. Plus some serious back-tarded logic. A billion isk ship with no means to defend itself or harden itself? That's just plain retarded.
I Agree CCP messed up or thay simply can't implament a change to the insurance payouts to ganker! Don't think CCP plan everything that happens in Eve and even when they do plan there is a ton of stuff they can't be arsed with. The origenal poster is right it will change the prices of T2 and this will make invention more viable. Do you think CCP planed this I don't think so.
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Princess Voodoo
FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:39:00 -
[176]
> Ok jumping into Jita to scout the freighter.
>>OH NOES TONES OF SHIPS ON TEH GATE
>>>What do we do? They are here, but ..but...IM CONFUSED! I KILLED SOMEONE - HERE IS A PICTURES OF IT [ ] |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:42:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron
Originally by: Tiberyya Za
Quote: Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank.
The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor.
A freighter has how many high-slots? None is the answer is it not?
Personally, I see this as another CCP messed up by not thinking things through problem created to solve another CCP not thinking things through problem. Plus some serious back-tarded logic. A billion isk ship with no means to defend itself or harden itself? That's just plain retarded.
Not to mention if you did either of those in hi sec you would get concorded. Concord no likes smart bombs or ecm bursts.....considered a criminal act.
The arguments here about how to use scouts, guards etc really won't help the freighter to much.
Most people wouldn't be willing to scout or guard long enough for a freighter to make a journey of 20 or more jumps. Freighters are the slowest warpers in the game.
The freighter can't last 38 seconds against 15 Domis, that means pretty much any defenders are going to be useless. They'll still just target the freighter even if it has guards. They'll then have their alt corp buddies either in NPC corps or rarely another player corp warp in their transports/industrials/freighter and loot. The guards will be stuck with no targets, no freighter and no way to stop the looters without actually dying themselves.
It would take approximately a dozen logistics cruisers to keep it alive under that onslaught long enough for Concord to possibly arrive before the freighter was destroyed. Not many logistics pilots gonna be willing to babysit freighters.
If the problem persists long enough and enough folks begin quitting due to it, then CCP will of course act.
I can only see four actions they could take:
1. Make empire safe. Only can attack targets that you have a war with. No one really wants this one, would lead to even further loss of subscriptions and thus not really a viable option for EVE.
2. Remove insurance payouts for ships involved in criminal behavior. This would still allow one to gank a military target even if it was unmarked. It just means that there is a risk vs reward. That you are gonna have to work for the high reward, since you'll have to ensure the target is worth a suicide attack. For as long as I've been part of EVE there have been calls for this and it makes sense.
3. Freighter HP Boost. Okay what's the problem here. Well the problem is if you give it a hp boost your not just affecting the gankers, you are affecting anyone trying to fight a legitimate war. Thus this is not really a good solution.
4. Redo the freighter. Give it some high slots, medium slots, and low slots. This would allow for some nominal protection/tank, enough hopefully that it can survive long enough for allies to help it or for concord to respond to criminal behavior. It wouldn't even need much maybe 3 to 4 high slots, 3 to 4 medium slots and 3 to 4 low slots. Just enough to add a couple resist plates, maybe a stabber or two, etc. This is somewhat feasible, but most likely wouldn't solve ganking unless you gave it such a boost that you also affected real wars, something we'd like to avoid doing.
So therefore out of the 4 scenarios possible, the only one I think is really viable to eve as a whole is to just remove insurance payout for criminal behavior.
Now it might take CCP months to actually make any changes, Privateers operated for many months, they kept pushing the envelope, until finally CCP decided they had to do something.
If all we see is a freighter or two a week ganked, it might take months to see any change. However if it goes up sharply and we started seeing half dozen or more on a weekly basis, then I do believe CCP will act.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Elad Dranoel
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Posted - 2007.05.05 17:46:00 -
[178]
Just boost the freighter armor/strcture hitpoints to fall in line with revelations patch.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.05 18:00:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Ryas Nia have you thought of joining a corp or alliance that could offer a protecting fleet?
MMORPG != solo
the key point is exactly in the woerd you used:
FLEET
not 1-2 ships, you need a whole fleet. A that point you can simply use a fleet of industrial, and risk way less.
The idea of the freighter is to move large quantity of bulk items with efficency. I you need the same number of ship you will use to move the material with multiple smaller ships the ship class lose any meaning.
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vile56
Nubs. D-L
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Posted - 2007.05.05 18:02:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 17:15:49
Originally by: vile56 ki has it right on.
oh and adapt
ROFL
He is a whiner of the worst case.
No insurance payout when getting killed by concord?
Buhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu it cant beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
(It is called preemptive whining and requires whining at lvl5 and advanced whining at lvl3)
removeing ins payout when killed by concord is not the solution. Why because there are ways to stop getting ganked. if there was NO way to stop ganking in highsec then yes that would be a viable option. i have never got suicided in a freighter in highsec (i can play stick man too).
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