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Ageanal Olerie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
53
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Posted - 2017.04.01 17:41:42 -
[1] - Quote
When you see a corp or alliance regularly has many dozens of active war decs, including against alliances, then clearly these things are far too inexpensive.
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Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
New Order Logistics CODE.
733
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Posted - 2017.04.01 17:57:29 -
[2] - Quote
We've beaten that particular horse to dust already, so I'll limit myself to a summary.
More expensive wardecs aren't a solution - the fact that certain large alliances are engaged in carpet wardeccing means that they have enough ISK to do it and continue doing so if the price is increased. However, smaller entities interested in the wardeccing business will find themselves at an even greater disadvantage.
Agent of the New Order
Live by the Code - die by the Code.
The Voice of Highsec
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grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2017.04.01 19:03:31 -
[3] - Quote
Shameless plug: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=515252
I was trying for a relatively elegant solution, instead of just jacking up expenses. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1075
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Posted - 2017.04.01 20:16:58 -
[4] - Quote
Spend less time in HS, you'll have more fun anyway. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
278
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Posted - 2017.04.01 21:28:42 -
[5] - Quote
Not seeing the problem here. You can easily avoid the risk of war decs by moving to lowsec or even 0.0. |
Kisaria
Andria Astral Enterprises
1
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Posted - 2017.04.02 02:05:45 -
[6] - Quote
I agree with the OP that there is a problem but I don't know if raising the price is the answer. I'm not the one to ask. Until a couple of hours ago I didn't know a thing about wardecs and my oldest character was born in 2008.
I just got wardecced. I had to look up the rules. I found that I have to wait a week for it to be over. I then did some research into the corp that created the wardec. I found that they wardecced a number of other corps besides mine. And they did that yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that.
I'm sure this is old news to all of you but to me this is all new information.
I then checked into the corps that got wardecced along with mine. These guys must be on some kind of mailing list. Not only have they been wardecced over and over by the same corp but they have been wardecced over and over by a number of "hi-sec wardeccing corps". These corps appear to get one to two weeks of normal game play a month but still have to pay CCP for the full month.
If I was interested in PVP I would join a PVP corp in null-sec. I'm in hi-sec for a reason.
My suggestion is two-fold. I think a restriction should be put in place on how often a corp can harass you. Let's say they can mindlessly wardec you once or twice a year. I could live with that.
The second part of my suggestion is to vote with your money. I just canceled all five of my subscriptions. I can go play another game where I get to play every day I pay for. CCP doesn't care that I'm not happy about the wardec system. There are a lot of folks that aren't happy about it. My name is on the mailing list now. I have a decision to make, accept EVE for what it is or go play something else. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3859
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Posted - 2017.04.02 02:52:39 -
[7] - Quote
This isn't the op's first whine.
How can wardecs be too cheap when the cost of ignoring them is less than a 10th of the price?
Kisaria. This is a pvp game. All areas are pvp areas. True some ppl don't like that but eve is a niche game. If you don't like pvp that much then playing another game is actually your best option.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
278
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Posted - 2017.04.02 02:54:42 -
[8] - Quote
Kisaria wrote:If I was interested in PVP I would join a PVP corp in null-sec. I'm in hi-sec for a reason.
Sounds like you don't understand how EVE works. There is no part of EVE, highsec included, that is a no-PvP zone. The only way to avoid PvP is to never undock (or interact with other players on the market, etc).
Quote:I just canceled all five of my subscriptions.
Good. You don't belong in EVE because you're too weak to survive here. Please be sure to contract me all of your stuff on your way out the door, so you won't be tempted to return. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20895
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Posted - 2017.04.02 03:29:01 -
[9] - Quote
shut up
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18800
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Posted - 2017.04.02 04:10:44 -
[10] - Quote
If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". |
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Kenrailae
The Scope Gallente Federation
763
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Posted - 2017.04.02 04:18:31 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground".
This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card.
And the lols we get from the 'leet PVP' high sec war deccers is never NOT funny.
What you mean to say by targeted wars is purposeful war deccing again.... which whether people wanna like it or not, has everything to do with the balance between things/reasons to shoot people that can't just be done with a few catalysts.
Good game though.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
453
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Posted - 2017.04.02 05:34:03 -
[12] - Quote
Kisaria wrote:I agree with the OP that there is a problem but I don't know if raising the price is the answer. I'm not the one to ask. Until a couple of hours ago I didn't know a thing about wardecs and my oldest character was born in 2008.
I just got wardecced. I had to look up the rules. I found that I have to wait a week for it to be over. I then did some research into the corp that created the wardec. I found that they wardecced a number of other corps besides mine. And they did that yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that.
I'm sure this is old news to all of you but to me this is all new information.
I then checked into the corps that got wardecced along with mine. These guys must be on some kind of mailing list. Not only have they been wardecced over and over by the same corp but they have been wardecced over and over by a number of "hi-sec wardeccing corps". These corps appear to get one to two weeks of normal game play a month but still have to pay CCP for the full month.
If I was interested in PVP I would join a PVP corp in null-sec. I'm in hi-sec for a reason.
My suggestion is two-fold. I think a restriction should be put in place on how often a corp can harass you. Let's say they can mindlessly wardec you once or twice a year. I could live with that.
The second part of my suggestion is to vote with your money. I just canceled all five of my subscriptions. I can go play another game where I get to play every day I pay for. CCP doesn't care that I'm not happy about the wardec system. There are a lot of folks that aren't happy about it. My name is on the mailing list now. I have a decision to make, accept EVE for what it is or go play something else.
Absolutely nothing is stopping you from playing. Wardec or not.
In the past 6 months I've spent in the uni, I think we have been at peace for Maybe 2 weeks total. I would LOVE 2 weeks per month wardec free.
And guess what, the uni still runs, people still undock, in fact it has very little impact on our day to day activities because in general we fly safe (and those who don't get caught. And generally learn quick)
But if you have already cancelled your subs. Since your stuff is spoken for. Can I have your SP? I'll even cover the cost of the extractors. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47378
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Posted - 2017.04.02 05:35:01 -
[13] - Quote
Maybe owning a Corp is too cheap.
If Corps cost a lot more, then perhaps people would only invest in them when they really need too and there'd be more interest in defending a war, which would then require fewer wars to achieve the content levels that wardeccers look for.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
279
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Posted - 2017.04.02 07:55:29 -
[14] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card.
No, it has a huge effect on war decs because the reason people put out mass war decs is the difficulty in finding a target. The locator agent system is awkward, there's no way to tell if your targets are even online at all, so the obvious answer is to war dec half of EVE so that sheer numbers allow you to find a target. Having locator agents tell you that your target is offline would make it significantly easier to home in on the active targets and reduce the need for tons of active wars. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
279
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Posted - 2017.04.02 07:59:08 -
[15] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Maybe owning a Corp is too cheap.
If Corps cost a lot more, then perhaps people would only invest in them when they really need too and there'd be more interest in defending a war, which would then require fewer wars to achieve the content levels that wardeccers look for.
This is true, but it's an awkward problem to fix. Making corps expensive to start would remove the problem of disbanding a corp and immediately re-forming it under a new name to dodge the war dec, since the cost of abandoning your corp would be greater than the cost of any losses you might suffer in the war. But it also creates a huge barrier to entry for newer players, and forces them to either stay in NPC corps (bad) or surrender their ability to build their own cool thing in the sandbox by joining existing corps (also bad). The proposal gives more power to those who already have it, at the expense of everyone else. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20897
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Posted - 2017.04.02 09:37:27 -
[16] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed much across the board.
War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi, rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at.
it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing, Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Sitting Bull Lakota
SBL Co
281
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Posted - 2017.04.02 10:01:01 -
[17] - Quote
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:We've beaten that particular horse to dust already, so I'll limit myself to a summary.
More expensive wardecs aren't a solution - the fact that certain large alliances are engaged in carpet wardeccing means that they have enough ISK to do it and continue doing so if the price is increased. However, smaller entities interested in the wardeccing business will find themselves at an even greater disadvantage. Which means the smaller entities will join up with the big alliances, swelling their numbers and wallets. This in turn leads to higher demand for wartargets. Which of course means more wardecs.
That is the progression that lead to where we are now. You want to stop wardec alliances? Make war cheap. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28092
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Posted - 2017.04.02 10:25:29 -
[18] - Quote
We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That would encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20898
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Posted - 2017.04.02 10:59:28 -
[19] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That may encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars again, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at. Still have the Intell issue, without sorting that you just make hub humping cheeper.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3926
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Posted - 2017.04.02 12:56:17 -
[20] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That may encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars again, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at. Except the banding together was already happening anyway over time even before the wardec prices got changed. What should happen is wardec costs should be based on the attackers size, not the defenders. This creates a push & pull pressure where for costs you want to be tiny, but for the ability to put a decent force on the field you want to be larger
Then to create more meaningful wardecs, remove 90% of high security stations (at least as player dockable locations even if they still exist for NPC mining & other fleet spawn points), asset safety now makes this possible since things could be set up to be recoverable through that system. And you then have only a few stations per constellation, making citadels as corp focuses far more relevant, and making it easier to push someone out of a system or constellation. Which means area control becomes a reason for war even in high sec. |
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Kenrailae
The Scope Gallente Federation
763
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Posted - 2017.04.02 13:15:55 -
[21] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Kenrailae wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed almost across the board. War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi, rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at. it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing, Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary.
Lol. Keep re-writing that history however you see fit. War decs were already screwed WELL before the watch list got changed. The blanket war deccing in hubs had been around for far longer than your watchlist being changed to a mutual friends list. We all know you're one of those 'give me an easy way to generate dank killmails' lot :)
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18804
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Posted - 2017.04.02 13:26:02 -
[22] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Kenrailae wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground". This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card. Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed almost across the board. War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi, rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at. it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing, Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary. Lol. Keep re-writing that history however you see fit. War decs were already screwed WELL before the watch list got changed. The blanket war deccing in hubs had been around for far longer than your watchlist being changed to a mutual friends list. We all know you're one of those 'give me an easy way to generate dank killmails' lot :)
The watch list changes forced everyone to mass wardec, it made what you hate worse. |
Kenrailae
The Scope Gallente Federation
763
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Posted - 2017.04.02 13:28:06 -
[23] - Quote
so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem????
-.-
Ty for finally admitting it.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
28092
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Posted - 2017.04.02 15:09:36 -
[24] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That may encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars again, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at. Still have the Intell issue, without sorting that you just make hub humping cheeper. True enough, mass wardeccing is a symptom, it's not the disease.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20903
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Posted - 2017.04.02 15:19:08 -
[25] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? -.- Ty for finally admitting it. It's only been a problem since the alternative was gutted. We've seen more bemoaning in the last year than the previous 3 on this topic.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Kenrailae
The Scope Gallente Federation
763
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Posted - 2017.04.02 15:38:55 -
[26] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Kenrailae wrote:so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? -.- Ty for finally admitting it. It's only been a problem since the alternative was gutted. We've seen more bemoaning in the last year than the previous 3 on this topic.
Lemme get out my tiny violin for ya. Watch lists were removed for good reasons. They're not coming back, nor are they going to be worked around by having locators tell you exactly what a watch list told you before, when it was decided they gave too much information and needed to be removed. So rather than keep complaining about an exaggeration... why don't you put your effort into addressing the problem.... which is again that war decs now serve little to no measurable purpose in the game other than structure bashing, because everything they set out to do can be done with a few catalysts or talos.
Even IF locators did, that still would not solve the core problem, would just mean you knew which of your blanket war dec targets was online when you ran the locator.
Don't misunderstand, I will be one of the loudest voices telling CCP where exactly to shove their idea should ANYONE at CCP ever get the opinion that ganking should be removed. But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment. You may as well just remove war decs.
Also PS... Just because your game play got stepped on doesn't mean it was a bad change for the game. Reference Jump fatigue/reduced jump ranges.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20904
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Posted - 2017.04.02 16:41:50 -
[27] - Quote
Op is moaning about war spamming, which has become problematic in the last year. Yes it was around beforehand but it's only been problematic since some clever clogs forced an issue.
Without an alternative we're only going to compound the issue.
Quote:But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment So don't, I didn't.
Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
80
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Posted - 2017.04.02 20:46:44 -
[28] - Quote
Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one. When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted. As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1076
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Posted - 2017.04.02 20:59:37 -
[29] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one. When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted. As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police.
Pay another player corp to attack the guys who are attacking you? |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3860
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Posted - 2017.04.02 21:04:16 -
[30] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one. .
That's your job.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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