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Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2017.04.08 10:36:03 -
[1] - Quote
There is a long standing difficulty with rebalancing assault frigates, there are many small ships and with the new TD3s, the role of assault frigates has largely ended.
Many people have spent a great deal of time trying to find a new role and feature, that would give them a reason to exist again, and all fall short, breaking overall class balance or not finding a reason why they should be used.
I suggest an entirely different role.
Make them ships designed and balanced around PVE.
Agile. Nullified. High damage Low signature Resists to ewar Good tank Fast Large hold for loot/salvage
Traditionally this would make them massively overpowered and murderballs in PVP and totally unacceptable.
But a way exists to make them absolutely useless in PVP
When warp scrambled (not disrupted) the effect is to turn off ALL functions of the ship, make them completely dead in space with all fitting, resists and power shut down.
This would create a valid alternative to Battleships and T3 in PVE, and encourage Active, alert, intelligent and skilled PVE players to travel to ls and null for the rewards, in a ship class that is effective, profitable, but when caught/fought dies in a flash.
Real cat and mouse, where a smart mouse gets the cheese. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
295
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Posted - 2017.04.08 10:43:50 -
[2] - Quote
Alderson Point wrote:This would create an alternative to Battleships and T3 in PVE
No it won't. You won't have enough DPS on a frigate hull for meaningful high-end PvP, even if you can theoretically run the PvE content your killing speed and ISK per hour are going to be way too low. And instantly losing your ship as soon as a PvP ship gets a lock on you instead of having at least a small chance of fighting back and escaping the trap (or burning back to the gate, etc) isn't exactly helping its case. Finally, let's not forget that NPCs also have warp disruptors, so you're going to instantly lose your ship to NPCs pretty frequently (or have to have some awkward explanation for why only PvP scrams shut down your ship).
What you've actually created is a pretty nasty gank ship. Assuming enough DPS to even consider doing high-end PvE, you've got a ship that is virtually unkillable against any PvE ship that doesn't waste a slot on a defensive scram, has plenty of DPS to bring it down, and can't be stopped by bubbles. Is that good enough to offset the instant loss against PvP ships? I don't know, but it's much more likely than your hypothetical AF being useful in PvE.
TL;DR: fix AFs for PvP, give up on the idea of dedicated PvE ships. |
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2017.04.08 10:50:10 -
[3] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Alderson Point wrote:This would create an alternative to Battleships and T3 in PVE No it won't. You won't have enough DPS on a frigate hull for meaningful high-end PvP, even if you can theoretically run the PvE content your killing speed and ISK per hour are going to be way too low. And instantly losing your ship as soon as a PvP ship gets a lock on you instead of having at least a small chance of fighting back and escaping the trap (or burning back to the gate, etc) isn't exactly helping its case. Finally, let's not forget that NPCs also have warp disruptors, so you're going to instantly lose your ship to NPCs pretty frequently (or have to have some awkward explanation for why only PvP scrams shut down your ship). What you've actually created is a pretty nasty gank ship. Assuming enough DPS to even consider doing high-end PvE, you've got a ship that is virtually unkillable against any PvE ship that doesn't waste a slot on a defensive scram, has plenty of DPS to bring it down, and can't be stopped by bubbles. Is that good enough to offset the instant loss against PvP ships? I don't know, but it's much more likely than your hypothetical AF being useful in PvE. TL;DR: fix AFs for PvP, give up on the idea of dedicated PvE ships.
You missed the entire point, disruption does not have any special effect only scrambling (Rats do not scramble)
The ship would be balanced to a level Far in excess of standard frigates, powerful enough to deal near battleship damage but with a frigates tactics for avoiding/mitagating damage.
Ganking is a valid comment. As this is now designed as a PVE ship safety should naturally be locked to green in HS. In lowsec the counter of a complete shutdown would not require this.
It is NOT a ship to fight back in, do mice try to beat up cats?
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Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
60
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Posted - 2017.04.08 11:14:15 -
[4] - Quote
Ugh, why did we have to make an af thread at the same time... |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5421
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 12:09:17 -
[5] - Quote
Please do this. I would not dual box them, roam nullsec and gank literally every ratter I could find with whatever your definition of battleship DPS is. (800? 1000? more?). I promise no-one else would do this either. Nor would we start to throw hundreds of them at eachother, since in numbers they'd just blap any tackle frigate or recon that got close enough to actually scram them.
Wouldn't use them to grind structures either. And tying stats to security flags or safety settings doesn't work in nullsec or wormholes, where you don't have those in any form. |
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 12:12:12 -
[6] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Please do this. I would not dual box them, roam nullsec and gank literally every ratter I could find with whatever your definition of battleship DPS is. (800? 1000? more?). I promise no-one else would do this either. Nor would we start to throw hundreds of them at eachother, since in numbers they'd just blap any tackle frigate or recon that got close enough to actually scram them.
Wouldn't use them to grind structures either. And tying stats to security flags or safety settings doesn't work in nullsec or wormholes, where you don't have those in any form.
You are welcome, I look forward to seeing large fleets of these that can be countered with a simple scrambler, rendering them as tanky as a wreck, I mean, who wouldn't want to sacrifice hundreds of ships that can be countered by a single well flown PVP fit frigate.
You did understand the point that these ships, are not bonused to tackle range or other PVP functions didn't you? Not really PvE bonuses are they. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5422
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 12:23:13 -
[7] - Quote
A single well flown frigate will not counter them. One guy will get tackled, and the fleet will leave.
If the fleet brings a few interceptors as well, the one well flown frigate will scram one guy, then die to the interceptors.
You cannot counter what you cannot catch. If these things are nullified, fast and agile then they will simply warp away every time someone gets close, like interceptors or slippery petes. (They are basically petes on steroids)
You don't need a tackle range bonus when you have 200 guys doing 800-1k DPS each. They will simply kill their targets before they can warp away.
I do not think you understand the mindset of the EVE player. If a thing can be exploited, it will be. A frigate with a thousand DPS is certainly a thing that can be exploited, especially if it is impossible to catch.
Imagine the tears when people fit entosis links on these things too. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3592
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 12:25:47 -
[8] - Quote
Alderson Point wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Please do this. I would not dual box them, roam nullsec and gank literally every ratter I could find with whatever your definition of battleship DPS is. (800? 1000? more?). I promise no-one else would do this either. Nor would we start to throw hundreds of them at eachother, since in numbers they'd just blap any tackle frigate or recon that got close enough to actually scram them.
Wouldn't use them to grind structures either. And tying stats to security flags or safety settings doesn't work in nullsec or wormholes, where you don't have those in any form. You are welcome, I look forward to seeing large fleets of these that can be countered with a simple scrambler, rendering them as tanky as a pre buffed wreck, I mean, who wouldn't want to sacrifice hundreds of ships that can be countered by a single well flown PVP fit frigate. They would die as fast as they could be locked. You did understand the point that these ships, are not bonused to tackle range or other PVP functions didn't you? Not really PvE bonuses are they. As I say, I look forward to your demonstration of Darwinism in action. You underestimate what 10 of these could do if fit for PVP, let alone an entire fleet of them. Your single hero tackle firgatebwith a scram would have enough time on grid to activate there scrambler before being blown up by ALL the rest of the fleet.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 12:29:09 -
[9] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:A single well flown frigate will not counter them. One guy will get tackled, and the fleet will leave.
If the fleet brings a few interceptors as well, the one well flown frigate will scram one guy, then die to the interceptors.
You cannot counter what you cannot catch. If these things are nullified, fast and agile then they will simply warp away every time someone gets close, like interceptors or slippery petes. (They are basically petes on steroids)
You don't need a tackle range bonus when you have 200 guys doing 800-1k DPS each. They will simply kill their targets before they can warp away.
I do not think you understand the mindset of the EVE player. If a thing can be exploited, it will be. A frigate with a thousand DPS is certainly a thing that can be exploited, especially if it is impossible to catch.
Imagine the tears when people fit entosis links on these things too.
Sure, they are powerful in certain conditions, but you underestimate by an incredible degree how vunerable they are to ANY damage when scrammed. They can be swatted out of the sky by a single grazing shot of ANY weapon, a single smartbomb would kill every ship that was scrammed in a single cycle.
If you wanted to TRY and gank a ship in hostile space, you would be be gambling that it didn't have a scram point, If it did, you would die as fast as you were locked.
Sometimes you might be lucky, after the first few days, luck would be a rare thing.
But if you wanted to whelp a fleet to a single venture, give it a go. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5422
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 12:38:10 -
[10] - Quote
They. Will. Not. Get. Scrammed.
An unbonused scram range is what, 10k for a t2? Load RF EMP into a wolf with 280mm arty and you're shooting to over 20. Load RF depleted uranium and your optimal is 15. You have no need to get into scram range. And artillery isn't even good.
If you take a blob of the things, it does not matter if you get one scrammed. If they or their supporting interceptors don't kill the guy with the scram, they will simply leave. No-one cares about losing a single 20mil frigate to kill someone's billion isk ratting boat, or to grind someone's pos down easier than with dreads, or whatever else you're doing with your thousand DPS frigates. |
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Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2017.04.08 12:42:17 -
[11] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:They. Will. Not. Get. Scrammed.
An unbonused scram range is what, 10k for a t2? Load RF EMP into a wolf with 280mm arty and you're shooting to over 20. Load RF depleted uranium and your optimal is 15. You have no need to get into scram range. And artillery isn't even good.
If you take a blob of the things, it does not matter if you get one scrammed. If they or their supporting interceptors don't kill the guy with the scram, they will simply leave. No-one cares about losing a single 20mil frigate to kill someone's billion isk ratting boat, or to grind someone's pos down easier than with dreads, or whatever else you're doing with your thousand DPS frigates.
You still miss the point let me make it plain NO PVP BONUSES.
So your wolf would not be shooting from 20k with full damage, It would not be getting those bonuses. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5422
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 12:56:51 -
[12] - Quote
That's what a wolf can do right now. It doesn't HAVE an optimal range bonus, so fitting those 280s onto a punisher will give you the same range. Are you seriously suggesting a ship that is completely and totally incapable of shooting at players in any way? If anything, that's even worse than the omgwtfsolopwnmobile you appeared to be suggesting.
(Also, if you're suggesting them as an alternative to VNIs for ratting, an AFK ishkur will be paying for itself in one single tick, so no-one is going to care in the slightest about losing them.)
And it is not worth sacrificing assault frigates for, even if they are pretty poor these days. |
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 13:02:48 -
[13] - Quote
You clearly have an opinion, everyone has one.
These would be NEW ships, maybe sharing the same name, and flavour, and that's where it ends.
If you choose to extrapolate the current ships with "mor damage" then you will continue to miss the point in it's entirety.
Lets see if the Devs can run with the idea and do something good with it.
If not I look forward to the assault frigate balance in 2021, when they fail to add anything other than swapping places with the Tactical destroyers for a few months.
But who knows, maybe they have some imagination? I am pretty sure they do, and they will see where this can go. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3592
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 13:26:51 -
[14] - Quote
Here is an instance of someone using a ship that was geared toward PVE for PVP. https://youtu.be/I4jQENEsbdk
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2017.04.08 16:18:01 -
[15] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Video not working, but from the comments I gather that is a marauder, exceptions do not prove the rule, But I agree, CCP will need to be imaginative and smart, and I don't think anyone believes marauders are imaginative or smart.
This can be a risk where one tries to make a ship capable of both with no hard counter in the design. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3592
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 18:49:05 -
[16] - Quote
Alderson Point wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Video not working, but from the comments I gather that is a marauder, exceptions do not prove the rule, But I agree, CCP will need to be imaginative and smart, and I don't think anyone believes marauders are imaginative or smart. This can be a risk where one tries to make a ship capable of both with no hard counter in the design. Marauders are not an exception, they are the only combat ships in the game that were designed with PVE in mind. All the rest are designed with PVP in mind and many got balance passes to focus them more towards PVP.
There is no instance short of completely preventing a ship from targeting other player ships (which will damage the open world aspect of the game) that will prevent a OP ship from being exploited. You can hope and imagine that everyone will use the ship in the way you thought, but it will never happen. The player base has shown this time and time again.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2017.04.08 19:26:42 -
[17] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Alderson Point wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Video not working, but from the comments I gather that is a marauder, exceptions do not prove the rule, But I agree, CCP will need to be imaginative and smart, and I don't think anyone believes marauders are imaginative or smart. This can be a risk where one tries to make a ship capable of both with no hard counter in the design. Marauders are not an exception, they are the only combat ships in the game that were designed with PVE in mind. All the rest are designed with PVP in mind and many got balance passes to focus them more towards PVP. There is no instance short of completely preventing a ship from targeting other player ships (which will damage the open world aspect of the game) that will prevent a OP ship from being exploited. You can hope and imagine that everyone will use the ship in the way you thought, but it will never happen. The player base has shown this time and time again.
Of course any ship will be exploited, the art is in making it impractical and absurdly stupid to do so. Darwin rules in the long run. |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
490
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 20:03:57 -
[18] - Quote
So a nullified glass cannon?
Sure I'll take one of these in a heartbeat. Load it up with all the damage mods it will take and slap some polarized guns on it. Hello instablap frigate. Good luck even getting close enough for a scram. |
Nalena Linova
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
35
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Posted - 2017.04.08 20:07:27 -
[19] - Quote
"Don't worry about the hilariously exploitable problems with my idea guys, the omniscient devs at CCP will solve them all. Trust me." |
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2017.04.08 20:53:57 -
[20] - Quote
Nalena Linova wrote:"Don't worry about the hilariously exploitable problems with my idea guys, the omniscient devs at CCP will solve them all. Trust me."
No, the idea is not exploitable, putting it on an existing ship without changing all the stats would be.
The idea is simply the mechanism where a ship would be able to have higher stats than traditional because a new mechanism was providing a hard counter in a PVP situation.
It does NOT mean building an OMGBBQPWNMOBILE and calling it a PVE ship.
But if thats easier for you to understand, carry on have fun. |
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
492
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Posted - 2017.04.08 21:02:25 -
[21] - Quote
Alderson Point wrote:Nalena Linova wrote:"Don't worry about the hilariously exploitable problems with my idea guys, the omniscient devs at CCP will solve them all. Trust me." No, the idea is not exploitable, putting it on an existing ship without changing all the stats would be. The idea is simply the mechanism where a ship would be able to have higher stats than traditional because a new mechanism was providing a hard counter in a PVP situation. It does NOT mean building an OMGBBQPWNMOBILE and calling it a PVE ship. But if thats easier for you to understand, carry on have fun.
except that the hard counter you have described WILL NOT prevent it from being used and abused in pvp constantly.
yes they would have all the durability of a wet paper bag when scrammed, simple solution, fight outside of scram range, with the kinds of dps you are suggesting, particularly with the damage application of small guns, you wouldn't even need to fit a disruptor.
what you have described is a glass cannon fit interceptor with battleship level damage application. how can you not recognize that it is broken as **** and would be abused in about 2 seconds flat. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
298
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 21:22:27 -
[22] - Quote
Alderson Point wrote:The idea is simply the mechanism where a ship would be able to have higher stats than traditional because a new mechanism was providing a hard counter in a PVP situation
The point you keep ignoring is that it isn't a hard counter. First of all, any ship with a warp disruptor instead of a scrambler (IOW, anything intended for medium or long range fights) gets massacred by your ridiculous super-frigates with battleship stats on a frigate hull. Any ship that can't get into range to us its defensive scram (for example, a battleship against a kiting AF) gets massacred by a super-frigate. And even if you manage to apply the scram you're still vulnerable to blobbing. Sure, you kill one AF pretty easily, but the rest of the blob of 1000-DPS super-frigates will kill you before you can get another one.
So, will it win every single conceivable PvP fight? Of course not. Will it be a blatantly overpowered PvP ship in addition to whatever it can do in PvE? Yes. |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
244
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 21:29:56 -
[23] - Quote
Simpler solution: delete the t3s and admit they were a poorly implemented idea and refund the SP. |
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
492
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 22:42:27 -
[24] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Simpler solution: delete the t3s and admit they were a poorly implemented idea and refund the SP.
Honestly I'd rather they just get rid if AF altogether. They barely had a niche as it was. (A slightly tougher frigate is hardly an interesting or unique role) |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
245
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 00:34:53 -
[25] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Simpler solution: delete the t3s and admit they were a poorly implemented idea and refund the SP. Honestly I'd rather they just get rid if AF altogether. They barely had a niche as it was. (A slightly tougher frigate is hardly an interesting or unique role)
I was always an advocate of solo play for assault suits in dust when people couldn't find a role for them. Maybe toss some warp core strength there way and make them immune to logis or fleet boosts so they don't benefit from help but that's not altogether that different from op just in a different way and would still just use them to escape from group fights and come back. Plus idk enough about pvp to make that decision. I just hate the t3s.
Maybe assault frigates could be like the battlecruisers that fit battleship guns. Frigates with medium guns and tracking bonuses. But again... Op wants that kinda damage already.
Which only leaves me with giving them super tank bonuses and bonuses to tackling or something. Like a double armor for amarr. 4% armor HP and resistances per level. 7.5% armor repairer hp and something like 3% less armor repair cap usage. But it comes back to t3s for me, they do too much too well. Not why we have one ship filling several roles outperforming all the other ships that should outperform them in specialized roles from what I understand the intention was.
I always wondered what an attack speed ship would be like with a 100% bonus to ROF. And ROF mods. But I imagine it would just blow through ammo and be demlolished by anything with resists towards its weak fast damage. Like a machine gun bonus. |
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