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Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
256
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Posted - 2017.04.10 08:47:08 -
[31] - Quote
Do Little wrote:I suspect the subcap meta modules will work the same way as the capital ones. BPOs are available on the market as are named components.
Production will require a T1 module plus some named components which will presumably be available as loot or salvage.
Named components are tiny, .001 m3, so ratters & mission runners won't need huge cargo bays for their loot.
This is a very positive change for nullsec since the meta modules needed for doctrine fits will be able to be built locally.
It's also a very positive change for the Eve economy since the minerals required to make these things will now need to be harvested by players - only the named components will drop as loot/salvage.
But will I be getting enough on these drops to make up for the ~2m warp disruption fields from small ships and all the grapplers and battleship mods or do we know if they'd be nerfing drops.
Cause about a week and a half ago I was getting capital ancillary shield boosters and armor repairer bpcs from regular belt rats. Not even faction. Sadly my HDD fried and I haven't been on since, but why should I want them to get rid of 175m-600m bpcs from a little 500k bountied battleship or 2m from everything else pretty much.
Cause if it's gonna drop a few named parts like salvage from wrecks it's gonna completely kill belt ratting. I'd rather keep the bulky 2m disruption fields and bpcs over 500isk a piece salvage. Salvage is so cheap and inconsistent it's not worth the trouble. I don't want looting wrecks to become just as inconsistent and not worth the time.
Unless we're also including the option to dramatically increase bounties I think it would be a largely negative change. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3943
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Posted - 2017.04.10 10:55:51 -
[32] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......
Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.
With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use. However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.
So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with? Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes? Changing from modules to components doesn't require getting entirely rid of gun mining. The components can still be refined in of themselves. However since highsec has frigate WH's where you can get ABC's, or you can day trip to low or null in a cloaky even if you want, it's not impossible to get some.
Personally ABC's should be in highsec in small inefficient quantities. I mean like 10% the rate that you get in null for reference, so given last time CCP released figures Null was mining as much as highsec was, 10% the rate will be lower income than omber currently and not affect the markets heavily. heck, you could put a tiny bit of high ends into Omber and solve both it's value and the highsec mining distribution in one go, without changing the isk/hour maximum of mining in high, since CCP have dramatically shifted their original mineral distribution vision already, and that would resolve the issue. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Lost Obsession
1651
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Posted - 2017.04.10 11:00:17 -
[33] - Quote
I think that is actually a good idea.
TunDraGon is recruiting!
"Also, your boobs [:o] " -á
CCP Eterne, 2012
"When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
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Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
2451
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Posted - 2017.04.10 11:10:46 -
[34] - Quote
I always thought is was kind of lame that a lot of T1 modules were not worth producing because the better Meta Variants drop en-masse. |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
2130
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Posted - 2017.04.10 11:16:22 -
[35] - Quote
Other possibility: add new Decryptors (if these blue thingies has this name) which do not modify ME/PE but instead modify META of produced BPC. This will completely remove gun mining (which is good thing IMO) and will add some life to data sites (they need it)
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
492
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Posted - 2017.04.10 12:39:59 -
[36] - Quote
+1 from me as well. This will help even out supply and demand for meta modules, add a new element for industry and reduce the flow of minerals from gun mining.
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Joey Bags
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
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Posted - 2017.04.10 14:03:19 -
[37] - Quote
I think it's good as it will make T1 items and BPO's useful for more than just a stepping stone to T2 BPC and components. I think it needs to be well thought out and the balance needs to at least bear some resemblance to the market. Drone components were completely borked this year due to some (I think) poorly planed introductions like the Excavator drones for the Rorqual.
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friends nose.
Unless you podded them...and collected their corpse.
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Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
149
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Posted - 2017.04.10 15:05:42 -
[38] - Quote
I never understood why people wanted to play diablo 3 in space: farming crap you will never use and simply dump it into the nearest hub for cash.
Drone lands has been like the proposed change for a while now. The only modules that have a chance of dropping are the sentient equipment, and those are somewhat rare.
1) The sentient BS drops drone goo (used to build excavators and other stuff) and SOE chips (used to build astero, nestor, and stratios) and sentient mods.
2) The NPC carriers and supers drop random parts used to build stuff (I think capital mods? I don't remember) and BPC's (the super drops a BPC to build sentient fighter support units, not the module itself).
3) The regular rats drop BPC's for various mods, no equpment is dropped
4) the data sites drop BPC's for augmented and integrated drones. They also drop drone goo.
5) the combat signitures have a guarenteed sentient (point 1)
6) the 10/10s drop t2 salvage and overseer effects. they also have a sentient if you take the shortcut (point 1)
I really enjoy living in space where the "stuff to build" drops instead of completed modules, because it gives indy people an actual reason to live far from Jita. It also gives the sites more purpose, because If I want to build excavators or t2 rigs, I need to start farming the sites to get my supplies (or buy from corp mates that run the sites).
Those of us that farm sites to get the necessary building materials burn out far less frequently than people who dump the spoils into Jita. There is no reason to farm for them beyond acquiring more isk, which is not an end point. I need to run the sites to keep my indy lines running, so I can keep building stuff for the corp/alliance. I have an actual reason to run sites, isk/hr people usually don't (besides isk/hr) |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6387
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Posted - 2017.04.10 21:09:57 -
[39] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......
Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.
With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use. However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.
So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with? Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?
I donGÇÖt understand the problemGǪthen use the market.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1442
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Posted - 2017.04.10 21:35:44 -
[40] - Quote
mkint wrote:I'd have to be in the 'for' side as well, if it was someone other than CCP doing it. They can't figure out how bottlenecks work with T2 production or with T3 production. There's no reason to think this won't be just as broken, and likely moreso considering how much broader it is in scope. Especially since nobody has even mentioned the BPs yet.
The broken future I see is 1 run BPCs being dropped at the same rate as current named modules, every module using the exact same components in the exact same proportions as every other module, and the components being dropped at an insufficient rate to keep up with the amount of BPCs being dropped (and not in the same proportions at which they are consumed.) Oh, and one of the components only gets dropped by 1 rat that spawns for 3 minutes a day in Syndicate.
Is there any reason to expect a better implementation than this? Even when they had a PHD economist on board they couldn't figure this kind of stuff out. Bottlenecks are actually good for the game tbh. You need supply shortages versus demand to create conflict. In fact the only thing I am beginning to worry about is that CCP is giving null TOO much self dependencies versus the other areas of space so as to decrease transit and hopefully conflict and death between sec status zones. I know this was one of the foundations of the original Eve and Im hesitant with some changes being too much to remove this.
Capital meta parts has shown that this can work and as another poster has mentioned I am very certain it will mimic this entirely. You do have a point with the BPC bottlenecks though versus drops and it would be a good idea to have a certain bpc supply "floor" in the NPC LP stores so as not to become to dependent on drop rates alone like the SAAR issue. I also think that there does need to be disproportionate rates for sec zone usage. IE stuff most used in null might drop in high, null might drop low. Simply done to create motion of goods again. I realize this will not be a popular idea.
Another idea regarding the no ark or bist in high might be to make the components themselves reprocessable in some low grade high end form, likely highly inefficient but enough to make it a "way out" rather than complete market dependency. Or else just rollback the old mission changes.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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Cade Windstalker
1285
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Posted - 2017.04.10 22:05:54 -
[41] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......
Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.
With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use. However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.
So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with? Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?
Oh hai, so I'd like to correct a couple of assumptions here.
"Gun mining" these days produces a tiny fraction of the mineral demands of the game, and certainly a tiny fraction of the Megacyte used in the game.
This is the reprocessing result for any meta 425mm Railgun, note that it produces a total of *16* Megacyte. In comparison a single reprocessing of Arkonor produces 320 Megacyte and 22,000 Trit. That's less than half the Trit and roughly 20 times the Megacyte. Also note that that's actually on the high side for a module in terms of Megacyte output, most produce 6 or less.
The average volume of Megacyte traded in The Forge in the last three weeks per day was around 22.9 million, that means it would take 1.4 million module drops to supply the average daily Megacyte needs of Jita. Since that volume is clearly ridiculous, and would supply more than 4 times the daily Trit requirements of Jita, we can easily assume that most Megacyte is already coming from Null ore sources.
That's not to say that such a change wouldn't have any impact on the mineral market, but it would likely be small and largely confined to the minerals high-sec is already rich in, since those are the primary reprocessing product of unwanted meta modules.
Also it's unlikely that people Carrier ratting in Null (where the vast majority of Null NPC kills come from) would bother to pick up the relatively low value components ratting would produce. Similarly you rarely see someone ratting in a Carrier and salvaging their wrecks even on an alt. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's much more common in High Sec. It's just not really worth the time required to loot a few million off the field rather than just moving on to the next site.
Given this it seems unlikely that Null as a whole will be completely independent of the rest of the game for Meta module supply, the same way they aren't really now, especially since it seems unlikely the faction flavor of drops is going to go away with a change like this. If you live in Guristas space but you want Meta Beam Lasers you're going to need drops from Sansha or Blood Raider ships, the same as today.
Similarly a newbro looking to get into industry will have to buy components off the market, the same as he does today.
It's not really a concern for someone just starting out though. Lots of simple T1 items don't even require Megacyte or other minerals that are only really available from Null.
Please let me know if I missed something in there or if something seems disjointed or doesn't make sense. I'm a bit under the weather today. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3448
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Posted - 2017.04.11 22:34:26 -
[42] - Quote
This would be a very positive, already long overdue change.
Gun mining isn't really the problem any more though. Right now, if you're a new player, looking to get into industry and production, you are undercut by a constant stream of meta-level rat loot, usually dumped on the market for less than the mineral costs of producing the inferior meta-0 T1 item. There's essentially no point and no profit in T1 industry (except maybe for very high demand consumables such as ammuntition) as things stand and it is a frustrating and confusing experience.
Requiring a meta-0 module to create a working meta 1-4 module turns this situation on its head and allows new players dipping their toes into industry to actually do something constructive, as they're no longer cut out of the entire process by raw loot going straight to market as functioning equipment.
Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
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StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
639
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Posted - 2017.04.11 23:05:59 -
[43] - Quote
Finally a reason to dust off the ole' noctis. I like it.
Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1442
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Posted - 2017.04.12 00:06:15 -
[44] - Quote
This also allows newbros to do the boring but now more lucrative tasks for the vets when they get to null by cleaning up sites as the loot produced doenst necessarily mean having to ship large m3 amounts to high sec to make isk and only rely on a few higher value items to transport as you will be able to sell locally much easier.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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Hello Meow Kitty
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
25
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Posted - 2017.04.12 13:41:10 -
[45] - Quote
seller1122 wrote:So after watching some of the fanfest videos I took note that CCP Fozzie wants to stop npcs dropping meta items and instead get them to drop components for us to build the meta items as part of their vision to have the players build all items. This doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons.
First off it feels just like its adding in an arbitrary layer of complexity without really providing any benefit, you just have to go through an extra step before you have the item to use or sell.
Secondly it removes the ability for the market to control the pricing of the items based upon their usefulness; instead as (I assume) each item will be built from similar components to each other, their pricing will be arbitrary set by ratios defined by CCP in the BPCs.
Thirdly it doesn't quite make sense from a "lore" / practical standpoint. Player ships drop their equipment when they die; why now for NPCs should they behave different and drop components instead of modules, unless of course the intent is for the same to be done with player ships ?
As a general side note is this change expected to affect faction / deadspace / officer items as well or just the basic meta 0-4 modules from standard rats?
Officer items should be removed from the game anyways. OP items that are imbalanced (don't care about the killmail loss).
I prefer deadspace drops myself while exploring (shinny loot) but maybe these drops Fozzie is referring to are Wormholes or a specific type of drop from missions maybe? Adding exploration missions :) Players need to go to the system and scan down the mission objective :() |
Yorrick Kayne
Kosmische Kollegen
2
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Posted - 2017.04.12 13:43:54 -
[46] - Quote
CCP wants to stop npcs dropping meta items because those are to bulky for my cargo hold. Whatever drops instead will be smaller, at least I hope so! |
Trixi Laminer
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2017.04.12 14:43:06 -
[47] - Quote
Maybe the prints for meta components can drop in the mostly useless data hacking sites? Or introduce the prints in some unused npc corporations LP stores. |
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
27
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Posted - 2017.04.12 16:42:53 -
[48] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Max Deveron wrote:Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......
Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.
With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use. However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.
So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with? Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes? Oh hai, so I'd like to correct a couple of assumptions here. "Gun mining" these days produces a tiny fraction of the mineral demands of the game, and certainly a tiny fraction of the Megacyte used in the game. This is the reprocessing result for any meta 425mm Railgun, note that it produces a total of *16* Megacyte. In comparison a single reprocessing of Arkonor produces 320 Megacyte and 22,000 Trit. That's less than half the Trit and roughly 20 times the Megacyte. Also note that that's actually on the high side for a module in terms of Megacyte output, most produce 6 or less. The average volume of Megacyte traded in The Forge in the last three weeks per day was around 22.9 million, that means it would take 1.4 million module drops to supply the average daily Megacyte needs of Jita. Since that volume is clearly ridiculous, and would supply more than 4 times the daily Trit requirements of Jita, we can easily assume that most Megacyte is already coming from Null ore sources. That's not to say that such a change wouldn't have any impact on the mineral market, but it would likely be small and largely confined to the minerals high-sec is already rich in, since those are the primary reprocessing product of unwanted meta modules. Also it's unlikely that people Carrier ratting in Null (where the vast majority of Null NPC kills come from) would bother to pick up the relatively low value components ratting would produce. Similarly you rarely see someone ratting in a Carrier and salvaging their wrecks even on an alt. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's much more common in High Sec. It's just not really worth the time required to loot a few million off the field rather than just moving on to the next site. Given this it seems unlikely that Null as a whole will be completely independent of the rest of the game for Meta module supply, the same way they aren't really now, especially since it seems unlikely the faction flavor of drops is going to go away with a change like this. If you live in Guristas space but you want Meta Beam Lasers you're going to need drops from Sansha or Blood Raider ships, the same as today. Similarly a newbro looking to get into industry will have to buy components off the market, the same as he does today. It's not really a concern for someone just starting out though. Lots of simple T1 items don't even require Megacyte or other minerals that are only really available from Null. Please let me know if I missed something in there or if something seems disjointed or doesn't make sense. I'm a bit under the weather today.
Megacyte was never oversupplied by rat drops the oversupplied mineral was nocxium from drone poop.
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