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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:28:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Sortiario on 07/05/2007 21:26:03
Originally by: Rthor I think to some people it seemed strange that the scammer would find it necessary to take a screenshot at the moment of transaction. The guy who "got scammed" said that the screenshot was fake. So since character scams are againts EULA the guy who "got scammed" petitioned and CCP verified that no character transfer took place, hence the screenie was indeed fake.
But even then you do not know for sure if the guy who "got scammed" was not an alt of the scammer or somebody else remotely involved. It is a bit paranoid to think like this but that is how Eve works. Same thing here, if you are paranoid enough, you start wondering why the identity of the guy who sold Skiff BPOs to TS seems to be protected.
Hypercapitalism ftw. Actually, I've learned more from the current BMBE case and the case in question here, than all the guides in total that I've read. Why don't they sticky the juicy stuff?
In the end, it'll turn out to be a major player in EVE with hundreds of accounts that controls the network through alts of alts of alts of alts. Eefrit and TS are just puppets to this guy - even though they don't know it.
Seriously though, it's not hard to believe that there's a mastermind behind the business. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:30:00 -
[32]
"The 20B ISK bribe, was not comming out of Eefrits pockets, but out of the BMBE capital.
BMBE capital = shareholder ISK."
This is not a bribe. If you consider this to be a bribe then you clearly do not understand the meaning of the word.
Eefrit specifically laid this out in his buyout post. He explained that this was a method to get you to hand the company over. He explained how this would impact the investors and that because he charges less money himself than you do the investors would make more money even with this 20B payment to you.
STOP using this bribe claim. It's not a bribe and people keep telling you this.
The blackmail claim is also quite silly. He wanted a response to his buyout offer. I don't see how anything anyone has said that would make what he did blackmail. He wasn't trying to get you to pay him money to keep a secret that I can tell.
The general cheat claim. What the hell is this claim? He is a general jerk... but I don't see how Eefrit has cheated anyone in anything related to these posts.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Sortiario
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
It's not about ISK. Tornsoul's arrogance makes for good scandals, which are entertaining as heck.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=132046
What was the outcome of that case, anyways?
Tornsoul's aura of infallibility was punctured. If memory serves right, he let in a guy into BIG who took advantage of BIG rep to do a character scam. Basically the scammer fed TS a fake screenie and TS took it at face value. Scammer got banned for it after some forum commotion uncovered that the screenie was fake and that got CCP to get involved but before it could happen TS attacked a possibly innocent person and protected a definite scammer because he could not comprehend how can it be that anybody in BIG could scam. Since then it is obvious that TS is very proud of BIG and himself, and that is his weakness also.
Rthor.. at least tell the full story...
Definatly not one of my best moments - I'll be the first to admit that. I was taken in just as you describe.
What you are not telling is:
It was members of BIG who found out the screenie was fake, and who finally coerced a confession out of the scammer (internally of these forums)
I then made a public apology (after I was allowed to comment by the GM's again)
The guy that got scammed, got his ISK back in full, paid by BIG (who thus ended up beeing the one loosing out)
Also - That whole story ended up changing the rules for char transfers to what they are today.
BIG Lottery
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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:38:00 -
[34]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Sortiario
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
It's not about ISK. Tornsoul's arrogance makes for good scandals, which are entertaining as heck.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=132046
What was the outcome of that case, anyways?
Tornsoul's aura of infallibility was punctured. If memory serves right, he let in a guy into BIG who took advantage of BIG rep to do a character scam. Basically the scammer fed TS a fake screenie and TS took it at face value. Scammer got banned for it after some forum commotion uncovered that the screenie was fake and that got CCP to get involved but before it could happen TS attacked a possibly innocent person and protected a definite scammer because he could not comprehend how can it be that anybody in BIG could scam. Since then it is obvious that TS is very proud of BIG and himself, and that is his weakness also.
Rthor.. at least tell the full story...
Definatly not one of my best moments - I'll be the first to admit that. I was taken in just as you describe.
What you are not telling is:
It was members of BIG who found out the screenie was fake, and who finally coerced a confession out of the scammer (internally of these forums)
I then made a public apology (after I was allowed to comment by the GM's again)
The guy that got scammed, got his ISK back in full, paid by BIG (who thus ended up beeing the one loosing out)
Also - That whole story ended up changing the rules for char transfers to what they are today.
I love EVE. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:38:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rthor if you are paranoid enough, you start wondering why the identity of the guy who sold Skiff BPOs to TS seems to be protected.
Trust me I would like to reveal the name - afaik he still plays (cant be sure, nor can I be sure its the same person behind the char still)
However - If you look at it. He as such did not break any rules... He defaulted the loan, and as a consequence lost his collateral.
Thats entirely within the rules of a loan.
Ethical/morally cool to do - No. But never the less within the rules of the agreement.
So.. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I dont see how I'm allowed to reveal the name...
BIG Lottery
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Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:54:00 -
[36]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Sortiario
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
It's not about ISK. Tornsoul's arrogance makes for good scandals, which are entertaining as heck.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=132046
What was the outcome of that case, anyways?
Tornsoul's aura of infallibility was punctured. If memory serves right, he let in a guy into BIG who took advantage of BIG rep to do a character scam. Basically the scammer fed TS a fake screenie and TS took it at face value. Scammer got banned for it after some forum commotion uncovered that the screenie was fake and that got CCP to get involved but before it could happen TS attacked a possibly innocent person and protected a definite scammer because he could not comprehend how can it be that anybody in BIG could scam. Since then it is obvious that TS is very proud of BIG and himself, and that is his weakness also.
Rthor.. at least tell the full story...
Definatly not one of my best moments - I'll be the first to admit that. I was taken in just as you describe.
What you are not telling is:
It was members of BIG who found out the screenie was fake, and who finally coerced a confession out of the scammer (internally of these forums)
I then made a public apology (after I was allowed to comment by the GM's again)
The guy that got scammed, got his ISK back in full, paid by BIG (who thus ended up beeing the one loosing out)
Also - That whole story ended up changing the rules for char transfers to what they are today.
Well I am not privy to everything obviously. But props to you for saying what you said here.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.07 22:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kyguard
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Hexxx
That point aside, could you articulate please as to what you mean when you say that shareholders are paying the price here? That's my big concern.
There is more here, but this one is of interest to me.
The 20B ISK bribe, was not comming out of Eefrits pockets, but out of the BMBE capital.
BMBE capital = shareholder ISK.
Wait, and the 40% profit that you pay yourself every month for possibly the worst management of any non-scam public corporation in history isn't "shareholder ISK"? It isn't a "bribe"?
If it was outlined in the original business plan there's nothing wrong with taking your share of the profits that the shareholders agreed to when they purchased shares.
But there is something wrong with continuing to take that even after one's own mismanagement results in the loss of billions of ISK, at least until the ISK is repaid.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 22:15:00 -
[38]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Rthor if you are paranoid enough, you start wondering why the identity of the guy who sold Skiff BPOs to TS seems to be protected.
Trust me I would like to reveal the name - afaik he still plays (cant be sure, nor can I be sure its the same person behind the char still)
However - If you look at it. He as such did not break any rules... He defaulted the loan, and as a consequence lost his collateral.
Thats entirely within the rules of a loan.
Ethical/morally cool to do - No. But never the less within the rules of the agreement.
So.. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I dont see how I'm allowed to reveal the name...
Well did you tell him that his identity is private when he took out the loan? On the other hand there seems to be a very good reason not to protect him, i.e. he owes your company money. I do not understand why you would protect a deadbeat when he took your shareholders' money? It seems really simple to me do you want to have future shareholders or do you want to protect deadbeats? If so which one of these groups will want to do business with you? Are you afraid that you are going to lose deadbeats' business?
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TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.07 22:32:00 -
[39]
No I did not tell him, or anyone else that their identity is confidential.
But seriously... That really goes without saying. At least in my book. You are ofc free to have a different opinion.
And let me make clear - It's definatly not a matter of me wanting to protect him. Hell I'd like to have him walk the plank if that was possible
It's a matter of me not breaking confidentiality - Unless you can come up with a good (enough to convince me) argument why that would not be an issue in this case.
Do that - And I'll give you all the name in a hearthbeat.
BIG Lottery
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.07 22:36:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ricdic Edited by: Ricdic on 07/05/2007 17:35:26
OMFG you guys won't believe what I found. You have to see this!
Let's see what they have in response to this
MORTAL PEEPFIGHT!
1m isk to the first person to link what I am talking about :p
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Empress Aphrodite
Soar Angelic
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Posted - 2007.05.07 23:21:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Ricdic Edited by: Ricdic on 07/05/2007 17:35:26
OMFG you guys won't believe what I found. You have to see this!
Let's see what they have in response to this
MORTAL PEEPFIGHT!
1m isk to the first person to link what I am talking about :p
This?
I like the Where's Wally/Waldo in Ricdic's pic
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SonOfAGhost
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.05.07 23:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: TornSoul No I did not tell him, or anyone else that their identity is confidential.
But seriously... That really goes without saying. At least in my book. You are ofc free to have a different opinion.
And let me make clear - It's definatly not a matter of me wanting to protect him. Hell I'd like to have him walk the plank if that was possible
It's a matter of me not breaking confidentiality - Unless you can come up with a good (enough to convince me) argument why that would not be an issue in this case.
Do that - And I'll give you all the name in a hearthbeat.
Confidentiality is part of the service you provide to your clients. Someone who has breached their contract is no longer a client.
Still, it may be due to things beyond their control (ie if someone had taken a loan at that time to buy a skiff BPO their expected revenue would have dried up and been unable to repay) in which case there is room for sympathy and professional courtesy for someone that had things go south on them and confidentiality should then be maintained. This should create good-will from the party and they may at some point repay at least the capital and could even be considered for a future loan with more stringent business plan/security requirements on their part. An unsuccessful client at present is still a potentially successful client in the future and this is why confidentiality should be extended as a courtesy in some cases of contract breach.
This, however, is not one of those cases. I doubt even you believe it was a coincidence the loan collateral was, not one, but two Skiff BPOs immediately prior to them getting fixed and that the borrower than immediately forfeited. This is a case of you got scammed. This is defrauding a public company. This isn't a client defaulting. If I go downtown and rob a bank at gunpoint I have no expectation that they would refuse to release the surveillance tape because I also happen to have a chequing account there. So how is the thief in question deserving of more confidentiality? Just because he didn't use a gun? He's still not, and clearly never had any intention of being, a client and is not deserving of the courtesies extended to clients.
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Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.07 23:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: SonOfAGhost If I go downtown and rob a bank at gunpoint I have no expectation that they would refuse to release the surveillance tape because I also happen to have a chequing account there.
****, I have to rethink my weekend.
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Florio
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.08 07:58:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Florio on 08/05/2007 07:55:35 ah, so this is where the white collar trolls hang out. too many blue collars in caod ;)
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Florio
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.08 08:05:00 -
[45]
the facts remain to be seen in this case, but my 10 years in finance dealing with money launderers, scammers and tax evaders lead me to judge that eefrit's character is one of integrity (yet cut-throat too i bet). hope so, he's got a huge chunk of my frakkin' money.
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Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.05.08 09:09:00 -
[46]
/me is just a minor shareholder of BMBE.
BMBE does not seem to be a pyramid-like scam like Cally's: its dividends are too *real* :D
I've been holding one single share of BMBE since its inception (more than one year ago), and I have no reasons to complain at all. Why? Because an enterprise such as BMBE had a very high inherent risk. Why that much risk? Because anything that could be used as a collateral has either a "low" and stable price, or a very "high" and wildly fluctuating price. To draw an analogy, all this stuff is very similar to an imaginary nation where, real estate price fluctuated 90% -- like those Skiff BPOs -- because the Government decided to enact some law (like giving away land for the take and paying for construction expenses).
That's what happened with T2 BPOs: CCP changed the rules of the game, the item dropped in price accordingly. BMBE got a "burning potato" in its hands :(
In any case, this is an issue between BMBE and its shareholders. I personally thank Eefrit for pointing out this dissonance between reports: I claim guilty for not having controlled BMBE finances as closely as him.
However, I doubt Eefrit just uncovered this for the sake of Truth & Honesty. I think he's just trying to put some political pressure on current BMBE management. What he should do if he really wants to get control of BMBE is to get the 51% of its shares.
Just make a Public Offer for BMBE shares. That's a real Hostile Takeover.
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Jalen Rose
Bre-X Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.08 09:36:00 -
[47]
Or better yet... Reveal a cover-up, TS i'm surprised at you, de-value the shares.. then start buying up 51%....
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.08 10:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Arvo Henderson /me is just a minor shareholder of BMBE.
BMBE does not seem to be a pyramid-like scam like Cally's: its dividends are too *real* :D
I've been holding one single share of BMBE since its inception (more than one year ago), and I have no reasons to complain at all. Why? Because an enterprise such as BMBE had a very high inherent risk. Why that much risk? Because anything that could be used as a collateral has either a "low" and stable price, or a very "high" and wildly fluctuating price. To draw an analogy, all this stuff is very similar to an imaginary nation where, real estate price fluctuated 90% -- like those Skiff BPOs -- because the Government decided to enact some law (like giving away land for the take and paying for construction expenses).
That's what happened with T2 BPOs: CCP changed the rules of the game, the item dropped in price accordingly. BMBE got a "burning potato" in its hands :(
In any case, this is an issue between BMBE and its shareholders. I personally thank Eefrit for pointing out this dissonance between reports: I claim guilty for not having controlled BMBE finances as closely as him.
However, I doubt Eefrit just uncovered this for the sake of Truth & Honesty. I think he's just trying to put some political pressure on current BMBE management. What he should do if he really wants to get control of BMBE is to get the 51% of its shares.
Just make a Public Offer for BMBE shares. That's a real Hostile Takeover.
Won't work, AFAIK. Tornsoul could easily keep the money from being transferred along with the corp.
There is no real method in the game for a real hostile takeover tbh.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2007.05.08 12:50:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Florio the facts remain to be seen in this case, but my 10 years in finance dealing with money launderers, scammers and tax evaders lead me to judge that eefrit's character is one of integrity (yet cut-throat too i bet). hope so, he's got a huge chunk of my frakkin' money.
He has been nothing but honest (even if brutally so) |
Witch Doctor
Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.08 16:31:00 -
[50]
So where is the missing isk? That's all I want to know.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.08 17:37:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Florio lead me to judge that eefrit's character is one of integrity (yet cut-throat too i bet).
QFT. This is also how I see it and Eefrit doesn't have a single isk of my money. Where Torn responded to Eefrit in the shareholder's report was justified the attack response thread was... not smart. A heated decision like that does not make me trust Torn any less. Eefrit is cutthroat but that doesn't mar any perception of his integrity. He owed Torn nothing. In fact as Eefrit is his competitor it was in Eefrit's best interest to torpedo Torn as much as he can without actively lying. The truth of the entire matter is that both sides acted, barring Torn's attack thread response, within justifiable scope. ( The lack of communication and/or transparency from BMBE is a long gnawed on bone that's been covered countless times. The topic is mismanagement, fraud, or malfeasance. Boiling this down to it's essence is the only way to have a clear discussion on the matter.)
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:22:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Baun on 08/05/2007 18:18:37
Originally by: Shar Tegral In fact as Eefrit is his competitor it was in Eefrit's best interest to torpedo Torn as much as he can without actively lying.
The truth of the entire matter is that both sides acted, barring Torn's attack thread response, within justifiable scope.
Of course it was in Eefrit's best interest to try to torpedo Tornsoul. The problem is that in order to do so he lied REPEATEDLY. He claimed altruistic motives when he had none (see epecially his "buyout" offer for that) and claimed he did not know the answer to the question that he asked when he DID.
I see no reason for you to defend Eefrit's actions. He purposefully and actively lied to everyone who reads this forum for his own gain.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:30:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 08/05/2007 18:18:37 Of course it was in Eefrit's best interest to try to torpedo Tornsoul. The problem is that in order to do so he lied REPEATEDLY. He claimed altruistic motives when he had none (see epecially his "buyout" offer for that) and claimed he did not know the answer to the question that he asked when he DID.
I see no reason for you to defend Eefrit's actions. He purposefully and actively lied to everyone who reads this forum for his own gain.
You know, Baun, everytime I see one of your posts, I have a hard time stop laughing since this.
Seriously, though, it still hasn't been proved that Eefrit would have any personal gain from going public with the discrepancy.
___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
Macdeth
Ephemeral Misgivings
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:31:00 -
[54]
Originally by: TornSoul No I did not tell him, or anyone else that their identity is confidential.
But seriously... That really goes without saying. At least in my book. You are ofc free to have a different opinion.
And let me make clear - It's definatly not a matter of me wanting to protect him. Hell I'd like to have him walk the plank if that was possible
It's a matter of me not breaking confidentiality - Unless you can come up with a good (enough to convince me) argument why that would not be an issue in this case.
Do that - And I'll give you all the name in a hearthbeat.
As I'm no shareholder, I'm more curious of the precise dates, which would not break this confidentiality that you apparently did not commit to anyway, when you were first contacted regarding a loan against the collateral of two Skiff BPOs and when you actually went ahead and sent the isk.
I'm pretty sure I also knew that it was Skiff blueprints defaulted upon long before this past hour, but more recent events do raise some questions of propriety that may be dismissable with such information.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:41:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/05/2007 18:40:39
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Shar Tegral In fact as Eefrit is his competitor it was in Eefrit's best interest to torpedo Torn as much as he can without actively lying.
The truth of the entire matter is that both sides acted, barring Torn's attack thread response, within justifiable scope.
Of course it was in Eefrit's best interest to try to torpedo Tornsoul. The problem is that in order to do so he lied REPEATEDLY. He claimed altruistic motives when he had none (see epecially his "buyout" offer for that) and claimed he did not know the answer to the question that he asked when he DID.
I see no reason for you to defend Eefrit's actions. He purposefully and actively lied to everyone who reads this forum for his own gain.
So your logic is, because you claim he lied, this makes Tornsoul's actual lying "not a problem"?
You're shifting the blame onto somebody else. STOP IT. Accept responsibility. You are not going to be able to fool us into dropping the issue by blaming someone else, even if they did indeed something wrong.
Deal with Tornsoul's lying, not Eefrit. I don't care about Eefrit. I care about the BMBE. Stop talking about Eefrit.
How big do I have to make the text before you address the actual issue?
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:44:00 -
[56]
Baun, you are just the cutest little forum poster there is. I can't help thinking of a little pug trying to fend off a would be assailant from it's owner. In fairness though nobody can say you don't show loyalty to your friends.
*Eefrit gives Baun a cookie
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Zhuge Liang
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:45:00 -
[57]
Not explicitly related to the market theme of this forum. please use this thread in the COAD forum.
Quick! To the Banmobile! |
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