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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6409
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Posted - 2017.04.18 18:23:43 -
[31] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:I hope you are right, Teckos, but I think that if changing fittings is part of the basic ship's role, this process should be as painless as possible.
Many players are ridiculously wealthy. CCP initially intended things like freighters and jump freighters to be corp and alliance level assets, yet many players have personal freighters and JFs in their hangars. So is it convenience and rigs driving this or is it something else? I can't think of any "something else", but then again that doesn't mean there isn't one.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
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Posted - 2017.04.18 18:27:17 -
[32] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Tech 3 -cruisers are already special enough. In the talk in fanfest the devs said that people do not utilise the versatility of t3 cruisers as much as they want them to - they just make different copies to suit their needs. My suggestion is a step toward solving this problem.
Had you actually bothered to listen to the presentation and not jump to conclusions, you would have heard Fozzie say it was due to rigs, hence they are thinking about allowing tech 3 -cruisers to unfit rigs without destroying them.
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.18 18:31:50 -
[33] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote: Had you actually bothered to listen to the presentation and not jump to conclusions, you would have heard Fozzie say it was due to rigs, hence they are thinking about allowing tech 3 -cruisers to unfit rigs without destroying them.
I did hear Fozzie, of course (and read the bit about the rigs before that). Still, I believe that the inconvenience involved in refitting a t3 cruiser in space hinders the pilots from doing so, and I see no good reason to preserve it. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
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Posted - 2017.04.18 19:23:46 -
[34] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote: Had you actually bothered to listen to the presentation and not jump to conclusions, you would have heard Fozzie say it was due to rigs, hence they are thinking about allowing tech 3 -cruisers to unfit rigs without destroying them.
I did hear Fozzie, of course (and read the bit about the rigs before that). Still, I believe that the inconvenience involved in refitting a t3 cruiser in space hinders the pilots from doing so, and I see no good reason to preserve it.
Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.18 20:21:53 -
[35] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote: Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.
I think they do, because unlike any other ship, refitting in space is an integral part of their intended role in the game. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6410
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Posted - 2017.04.18 20:35:20 -
[36] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote: Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.
I think they do, because unlike any other ship, refitting in space is an integral part of their intended role in the game.
If it were intended why was it not added to the ship?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
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Posted - 2017.04.18 20:41:03 -
[37] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote: Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.
I think they do, because unlike any other ship, refitting in space is an integral part of their intended role in the game.
No it's not. The ability to change subsystems is the important part. You don't need to be in space for that. Being able to reconfigure your ship the way you need it is a very big advantage. They do not need a exception to be able to do it without a refitting service available. The limitations on refitting any ship in space are there for a reason. It balances out the advantage you get from being able to fine-tune your ship to the requirements. This applies to every ship in the game, not just tech 3 -cruisers.
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.18 21:30:26 -
[38] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote: No it's not. The ability to change subsystems is the important part. You don't need to be in space for that. Being able to reconfigure your ship the way you need it is a very big advantage. They do not need a exception to be able to do it without a refitting service available. The limitations on refitting any ship in space are there for a reason. It balances out the advantage you get from being able to fine-tune your ship to the requirements. This applies to every ship in the game, not just tech 3 -cruisers.
I'm not convinced, since the only advantage my suggestion grants to t3 cruiser pilots over the existing state of affairs is more place in their cargo holds. This is not big enough to cause serious balance issues. Remember that CCP referred specifically to refitting in space as a part of their vision for t3 cruisers, not for other ships; as long as such refitting is not feasible due to cargo space issues, only few people will do it. |
Cade Windstalker
1377
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Posted - 2017.04.19 01:39:58 -
[39] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:I'm not convinced, since the only advantage my suggestion grants to t3 cruiser pilots over the existing state of affairs is more place in their cargo holds. This is not big enough to cause serious balance issues. Remember that CCP referred specifically to refitting in space as a part of their vision for t3 cruisers, not for other ships; as long as such refitting is not feasible due to cargo space issues, only few people will do it.
This is patently false.
Right now in order to refit in space you either need a mobile depot, which can't move, or a ship with a fitting service which will generally be slow, large, and not fit well into a Cruiser fleet composition.
Even being able to swap out modules on the fly would give a T3C a ridiculous number of options for escape or escalation of a fight.
Just a few off the top of my head:
- Speed tanking in PvE while refitting from tank to damage.
- De-aggressing to swap in Warp Stabs and a Nullifier to run away from basically anything but a focused HIC point.
- Swapping in a Cyno on the fly, whether you were trying to be bait and hid it in cargo or you just suddenly need backup without giving up a weapon or DPS first. Both would be pretty silly.
- Refitting around speed/range/damage on the fly while kiting.
- Disengaging and swapping the fits on your entire fleet to counter your opponents in less time than it takes to anchor a Mobile Depot.
Seriously, refitting is stupidly powerful, that's why CCP have kept adding restrictions to it. |
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 04:22:40 -
[40] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Even being able to swap out modules on the fly would give a T3C a ridiculous number of options
Come on mate, I mentioned several times that refitting in space should not be available during combat or after it. This covers the cases you brought up. |
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Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2017.04.19 12:09:44 -
[41] - Quote
I get where you are coming from, honestly the depot mechanic does force one to find a safe, and take some risk of getting probed down, that's not altogether a bad idea, it forces one to think, to plan some, and get as quick as possible doing it.
I would absolutely agree though with an improvement of cargo capacity, legions for example can have much more utility because they do not have to carry missiles or ammo, allowing for multiple fits. Hard to go on a deep cloaky roam carrying subsystems and fits with a hold full of antimatter or missiles. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2562
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Posted - 2017.04.19 12:34:04 -
[42] - Quote
Overall I would say this would be a pretty radical rework of the T3 mechanics. I guess in the end I would say all the CCP work probably isn't necessary. Yes - the strength of the ship class is versatility, but by the name it's intended for strategic (longer term) fitting adjustments. (tactical 'on the fly' are the strength of the tactical destroyer).
This on the fly fitting just doesn't seem worth it. Here are my thoughts on why that is: 1. T3 cruisers weren't designed to be long haul deep space refittable scanning then combat then sneaking around platforms. That's not their designed role. I see where it might be beneficial and even fun to take a week long run through null doing all sorts of different roles, but historically few folks ever actually do that sort of thing. Is all the below effort worth it for a handful of guys to do this sort of thing - I'll say no and cite the needs of the many. 2. 'I could complete that escalation that is 8 jumps into hostile territory if I could re-do my subsystems on the fly' True, but I kind of feel that the point of those 8 jumps is to get folks moving around and to create player interaction opportunities. Add some risk to the reward and so on. Being able to go travel cloaky/interdicted, then find an empty system to refit, run the site and reconfigure for the trip home kind of goes against the design feature (the 8 jumps) of the escalation. 3. To get players to use it you would have to re-work how rigs work. That's a lot of effort. 4. Changing how subsystems from their current form to scripts is also a lot of work - not worth the effort in my view (see below) 5. T3 cruisers aren't cheap, but they aren't that expensive either. If you really need 3 different proteus fits you currently put in a small amount of time and effort and purchase 3 hulls, sub them out to your specs, rig them correctly and have at it. I don't see that as a bad scenario. Working for what you want gets you playing the game. Earning things is good for the soul. (I really don't want to hear about how a new bro can't afford 3 proteus. I don't care. A T3 cruiser is a very powerful ship that has very low skill requirements. I recommend them to newbros all the time due to the skill req vs. usefulness factor. If a newbro with low skills can only afford one of these very powerful ships - I think he should count his blessing, put the hull to work and earn more.)
Overall - this would be a lot of programming to totally rework this class of ships (and rigs). The added utility would probably see little use. Most older players can easily afford and tend to purchase multiple hulls and for convenience of not constantly refitting will continue to do so. Players that can't afford multiple hulls just need to put their lone T3 cruiser to work so they can quickly have the iskies to buy more.
added note: rigs are supposed to be expensive non removable enhancements to ships, so this idea kind of steps on the design basis for rigs also |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 13:10:43 -
[43] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote: No it's not. The ability to change subsystems is the important part. You don't need to be in space for that. Being able to reconfigure your ship the way you need it is a very big advantage. They do not need a exception to be able to do it without a refitting service available. The limitations on refitting any ship in space are there for a reason. It balances out the advantage you get from being able to fine-tune your ship to the requirements. This applies to every ship in the game, not just tech 3 -cruisers.
I'm not convinced, since the only advantage my suggestion grants to t3 cruiser pilots over the existing state of affairs is more place in their cargo holds. This is not big enough to cause serious balance issues. Remember that CCP referred specifically to refitting in space as a part of their vision for t3 cruisers, not for other ships; as long as such refitting is not feasible due to cargo space issues, only few people will do it.
Again, it's not about refitting in space, it's about being able to swap the subsystems and fit around so you don't need to get multiple ships to do different things. They already can change their fit in space, with the help of a depot, just like every other ship in the game. They do not need a separate exception to the rule. As someone who flies them for both PVE and PVP, they are already good enough with current mechanics. This is an unneeded change just to give you more space for loot/extra fits.
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 14:24:32 -
[44] - Quote
Wander Prian, I think we both repeat ourselves now and bring no new arguments to the table.
Alderson Point and Serendipity Lost - thank you for giving productive and thoughtful criticism, and for not being immediately hostile. I do not take this for granted :-)
Alderson, I agree with what you say about the current depot mechanism being a challenge to the player. However, I think that gameplay-wise this challenge is not very interesting, nor it is fun - looking for an empty system is mostly a matter of spending time, not spending thought or making quick decisions, and when refitting is the point of the ship you are flying it becomes a turn-off - not because of the risk, but because of the time consumption.
Serendipity, I would like to refer to several parts of your serious answer:
Serendipity Lost wrote: T3 cruisers weren't designed to be long haul deep space refittable scanning then combat then sneaking around platforms. That's not their designed role. I see where it might be beneficial and even fun to take a week long run through null doing all sorts of different roles, but historically few folks ever actually do that sort of thing. Is all the below effort worth it for a handful of guys to do this sort of thing - I'll say no and cite the needs of the many. According to the latest CCP talk about rebalancing T3C in fanfest, this is indeed one of their designed roles. They actually describe it as an example. I think that they were not used like that historically due to their unintended limitations: rigs and cargo space.
Serendipity Lost wrote:Being able to go travel cloaky/interdicted, then find an empty system to refit, run the site and reconfigure for the trip home kind of goes against the design feature (the 8 jumps) of the escalation. This is correct, and I have not thought about hs->ls(->ns) escalations when making my suggestion. However, I think that after the much-needed rebalance, T3Cs will not be able to take the tougher escalations anyway, and this partly solves the problem.
Serendipity Lost wrote:You would have to re-work how rigs work. That's a lot of effort. Absolutely, but luckily CCP announced that they are doing just that :-) In their talk they said that T3Cs will be able to unfit rigs and re-use them. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 14:29:39 -
[45] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian, I think we both repeat ourselves now and bring no new arguments to the table. Alderson Point and Serendipity Lost - thank you for giving productive and thoughtful criticism, and for not being personally hostile. I do not take this for granted :-) Alderson, I agree with what you say about the current depot mechanism being a challenge to the player. However, I think that gameplay-wise this challenge is not very interesting, nor it is fun - looking for an empty system is mostly a matter of spending time, not spending thought or making quick decisions, and when refitting is the point of the ship you are flying it becomes a turn-off - not because of the risk, but because of the time consumption. Serendipity, I would like to refer to several parts of your serious answer: Serendipity Lost wrote: T3 cruisers weren't designed to be long haul deep space refittable scanning then combat then sneaking around platforms. That's not their designed role. I see where it might be beneficial and even fun to take a week long run through null doing all sorts of different roles, but historically few folks ever actually do that sort of thing. Is all the below effort worth it for a handful of guys to do this sort of thing - I'll say no and cite the needs of the many. According to the latest CCP talk about rebalancing T3C in fanfest, this is indeed one of their designed roles. They actually describe it as an example. I think that they were not used like that historically due to their unintended limitations: rigs and cargo space. Serendipity Lost wrote:Being able to go travel cloaky/interdicted, then find an empty system to refit, run the site and reconfigure for the trip home kind of goes against the design feature (the 8 jumps) of the escalation. This is correct, and I have not thought about hs->ls(->ns) escalations when making my suggestion. However, I think that after the much-needed rebalance, T3Cs will not be able to take on the tougher escalations anyway, and this partly solves the problem. Serendipity Lost wrote:You would have to re-work how rigs work. That's a lot of effort. Absolutely, but luckily CCP announced that they are doing just that :-) In their talk they said that T3Cs will be able to unfit rigs and re-use them.
Cargo space is a intended limitation, so is the fact that you need to use a mobile depot or some other refitting service.
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 14:43:06 -
[46] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Cargo space is a intended limitation, so is the fact that you need to use a mobile depot or some other refitting service. Currently it is. I think that changing it with regards to T3Cs is beneficial.
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
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Posted - 2017.04.19 15:14:54 -
[47] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Cargo space is a intended limitation, so is the fact that you need to use a mobile depot or some other refitting service. Currently it is. I think that changing it with regards to T3Cs is beneficial.
Again:
They do not need nor warrant such a change. They work perfectly fine with current mechanics, as do all the other ships as well. There is no benefit to get from this except the perceived "QoL" fix, that would just take extra dev-time to implement another exception to a already complex ship-class.
Judging by your killboards, all you think with this change is about the PVE-implications.
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 15:18:22 -
[48] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:They do not need nor warrant such a change. I think they do.
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
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Posted - 2017.04.19 15:57:36 -
[49] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:They do not need nor warrant such a change. I think they do.
I just love the arguments you have in defence of your idea....
You thinking something is needed does not mean it is.
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 16:03:25 -
[50] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:You thinking something is needed does not mean it is. It does not, but I work with what I have. So far you have only said that "things are like that now, and this means they should stay like that in the future". When you will post a valid argument, like the ones made by others in this thread, you will be entitled to a serious reply.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3309
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Posted - 2017.04.19 16:16:53 -
[51] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:You thinking something is needed does not mean it is. It does not, but I work with what I have. So far you have only said that "things are like that now, and this means they should stay like that in the future". When you will post a valid argument, like the ones made by others in this thread, you will be entitled to a serious reply.
Our argument for why it should stay like that is that all ship are supposed to have limitation that force you to make choices. Why do you think T3C should completely avoid those choice by having refit in space power while also carrying lots of mods to be sure they can refit to many things?
If you want to change the current design, you have to provide valuable reason as to why it should change. And no, because I think it should be is not a valid reason. |
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 16:34:57 -
[52] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Our argument for why it should stay like that is that all ship are supposed to have limitation that force you to make choices. Why do you think T3C should completely avoid those choice by having refit in space power while also carrying lots of mods to be sure they can refit to many things?
If you want to change the current design, you have to provide valuable reason as to why it should change. And no, because I think it should be is not a valid reason.
Thanks! Now that's an argument. My reason is this: in all other ships, space re-fitting should be an extreme strategic choice: possible, but with great efforts. But for T3Cs, space re-fitting should be the way of living. For them it must be as least cumbersome as possible. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3309
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 16:38:38 -
[53] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Our argument for why it should stay like that is that all ship are supposed to have limitation that force you to make choices. Why do you think T3C should completely avoid those choice by having refit in space power while also carrying lots of mods to be sure they can refit to many things?
If you want to change the current design, you have to provide valuable reason as to why it should change. And no, because I think it should be is not a valid reason. Thanks! Now that's an argument. My reason is this: in all other ships, space re-fitting should be an extreme strategic choice: possible, but with great efforts. But for T3Cs, space re-fitting should be the way of living. For them it must be as least cumbersome as possible.
And you are ok with the ship receiving an extra nerf bat swing after the upcoming balance to get that extra option? Because extra options are effectively power in this game so they would have to be brought down an additional peg or 2 after the currently intended balance to give room for more power. Like they did to freighter when they added options with low slots in case you need an actual example of options costing power. |
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 16:55:30 -
[54] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:And you are ok with the ship receiving an extra nerf bat swing after the upcoming balance to get that extra option? Yes, I am. Pesonally I don't think that my suggestion is a very big force multiplier, but this is for CCP to decide. I want to use my 3TC everywhere and in as many roles as possible, and for that I am more than willing to make sacrifices regarding its efectiveness compared to dedicated ships. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
424
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Posted - 2017.04.19 17:15:07 -
[55] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:And you are ok with the ship receiving an extra nerf bat swing after the upcoming balance to get that extra option? Yes, I am. Pesonally I don't think that my suggestion is a very big force multiplier, but this is for CCP to decide. I want to use my 3TC everywhere and in as many roles as possible, and for that I am more than willing to make sacrifices regarding its efectiveness compared to dedicated ships.
So like losing at least 50m3 of cargospace and limiting the ability to switch modules around into very specific circumstances?
Wormholer for life.
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Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 17:23:37 -
[56] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Rhyme Bittern wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:And you are ok with the ship receiving an extra nerf bat swing after the upcoming balance to get that extra option? Yes, I am. Pesonally I don't think that my suggestion is a very big force multiplier, but this is for CCP to decide. I want to use my 3TC everywhere and in as many roles as possible, and for that I am more than willing to make sacrifices regarding its efectiveness compared to dedicated ships. So like losing at least 50m3 of cargospace and limiting the ability to switch modules around into very specific circumstances?
No, since these very abilities are among the abilities that should define a T3C. I thought more of limiting their DPS, their tankiness and the like. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3311
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Posted - 2017.04.19 17:30:57 -
[57] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Rhyme Bittern wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:And you are ok with the ship receiving an extra nerf bat swing after the upcoming balance to get that extra option? Yes, I am. Pesonally I don't think that my suggestion is a very big force multiplier, but this is for CCP to decide. I want to use my 3TC everywhere and in as many roles as possible, and for that I am more than willing to make sacrifices regarding its efectiveness compared to dedicated ships. So like losing at least 50m3 of cargospace and limiting the ability to switch modules around into very specific circumstances? No, since these very abilities are among the abilities that should define a T3C. I thought more of limiting their DPS, their tankiness and the like.
When freighter were given agility/tank/cargo as option, what was nerfed was their base agility/tank/cargo.
If you think CCP will change their way of viewing things, you have a though case to build. |
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 17:34:42 -
[58] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: When freighter were given agility/tank/cargo as option, what was nerfed was their base agility/tank/cargo. If you think CCP will change their way of viewing things, you have a though case to build.
I think what I say is quite logical: the versatility of T3Cs should be enhanced, and other abilities should pay the price for this enhancement. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3312
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Posted - 2017.04.19 17:45:25 -
[59] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: When freighter were given agility/tank/cargo as option, what was nerfed was their base agility/tank/cargo. If you think CCP will change their way of viewing things, you have a though case to build.
I think what I say is quite logical: the versatility of T3Cs should be enhanced, and other abilities should pay the price for this enhancement.
SO you would rather have nerf to DPS, tank, probe strength, mobility and EWAR I guess. |
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
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Posted - 2017.04.19 17:51:02 -
[60] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:SO you would rather have nerf to DPS, tank, probe strength, mobility and EWAR I guess. Yes, if this is necessary. Personally I think it is not, because with proper limitations on refitting in space (such as timers and combat timers) the power of a T3C should not be significantly boosted by the fact that it does not need a depot. But the devs know better. |
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