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GoodGreyer Ayderan
University of Caille Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2017.04.20 04:07:21 -
[1] - Quote
Being a High Sec ganker these days is SOOOOOO boring. It's just too damn easy. Too much isk, for too little risk, is what I like to say about our profession.
Honestly I'm just tired of making money hand over fist, taking the hard earned (or bought) isk of other players, with barely an inkling of risk or uncertainty.
It's time CCP, for you to make us step up our game!
One way to do this, is via THIS proposal. And that is....
Fake Cargo!
That's right. Fake... Cargo....
The way this would work, is that a hauler or anyone for that matter could create what would appear to be on one's cargo scanners the signature of 500 Plex (or any valuable cargo), to bait us in to ganking them in High Sec. High Sec ganking becomes more of a gamble. A game of Russian Roulette (or given Trump's bedding with Putin - American Roulette - though it's played a little differently where all but one chamber has a bullet ).
So please CCP, bring some excitement back to High-Sec ganking!
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Maria Dragoon
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2017.04.20 04:39:38 -
[2] - Quote
I plus 1 this because of how ******* hilarious this is.
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1189
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Posted - 2017.04.20 04:40:27 -
[3] - Quote
Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here.
You want something that ensures your ship will be ganked, and the joke is that they lost a little ISK doing it?
Maybe if it caused a huge smartbomb effect when your ship died it might make moving cargo around in low and null a bit more entertaining, where what's eating you is a hotdrop of something more juicy than some throw away catalysts. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47639
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Posted - 2017.04.20 06:03:39 -
[4] - Quote
Maybe I'm being too suspicious, but I find it funny that a thread is supposedly from a ganker asking for more risk for gankers, yet the OP has no killboard to validate that position.
It doesn't seem like the sort of suggestion that would come from a ganker, primarily because it wouldn't achieve what is being asked for.
It seems much more like a misguided suggestion from a hauler that would backfire spectacularly. |
mkint
1736
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Posted - 2017.04.20 12:01:14 -
[5] - Quote
I know this is a joke suggestion, but I can't help thinking of how it would play out. Obviously, it would see almost no use. And then since the drop rate is 50%, recovering one would be effectively never. The only way to get it much use would be for groups to organize, at which point it might become more predictable. It wouldn't cause any kind of social movement because memes don't really spread very well in EVE. Even if it ended up having wide use, it would get used on obvious ships because nobody wants to risk an expensive ship. Cheap industrials with no fitting. Shuttles on autopilot. Rookie ships. Maybe they get ignored, maybe they get hit more frequently. But since they'd never get used, it really wouldn't have an effect on the game. Unless of course this was made as a change to cargo scanners themselves to occasionally report false positives, which might make things more interesting.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2569
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Posted - 2017.04.20 12:51:06 -
[6] - Quote
My first thought was you could lead with an expensive fake cargo ship and follow behind with your real cargo. Jump the fake loots into Niarja and as it burns and the gankers are all getting their pods back to reship, you fat loot freighter moonwalks through the system.
My second thought is jump 7 iterons full of big loots into Niarja. Only one is real. The gankers would have to pick and hope luck is on their side. Stagger the iterons at short intervals to add interest. Do this w/ DST to really force the gankers to pick and choose.
Gankers pull CONCORD off the gate, why not be able to pull gankers to a bait ship and then get your stuffs through. It adds no actual risk to the ganking profession but it does add some interesting counter play options for haulers.
+1 for funny +1 for interesting counter play options |
oiukhp Muvila
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
171
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Posted - 2017.04.20 13:03:47 -
[7] - Quote
The problem is that the Cargo Scanner returns actual items which can be copy / paste into out of game applications that will estimate value based upon markets prices.
That's the problem.
The Cargo scanner lists actual items, than can be accurately verified.
What you should be asking for is ways to consistently affect what cargo scanners return so if a gank crew scans you once, or scans you 100 times, they still get the general mis-leading answer.
Of course, if that will ever come to past is a totally different discussion.
Because we all know the only ones who need to face risk are Hi Sec carebears.
Gankers only need to face the consequences.
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3883
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Posted - 2017.04.20 13:04:09 -
[8] - Quote
Yeah the op is one of those gankers that hates gankers and is often unsure of how ganking actually works. Yeah, one of THOSE gankers.
Not opposed to the concept. But how will it actually work?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3320
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Posted - 2017.04.20 18:56:54 -
[9] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Yeah the op is one of those gankers that hates gankers and is often unsure of how ganking actually works. Yeah, one of THOSE gankers.
Not opposed to the concept. But how will it actually work?
It literally can't unless we change how cargo scanner work. You would need a way to make the cargo scanner lie about what is in the hold. While it is not technically impossible to do so, CCP refused to have the API lie about a bunch of stuff when it was brought up that it effectively killed the utility of siphons. |
radkid10
The Scope Gallente Federation
48
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Posted - 2017.04.20 19:08:20 -
[10] - Quote
here's an idea cargo scanner jammers
I'm not a suicide ganker
I personally would not go through the trouble doing a Scan I would just shoot the ship and pray I get something good after all destroyers are cheap |
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Vic Jefferson
Brand Newbros Test Alliance Please Ignore
1229
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Posted - 2017.04.20 19:43:02 -
[11] - Quote
GoodGreyer Ayderan wrote:That's right. Fake... Cargo....
It has been quite a while, but if you really wanted to troll the gankers, here's how you do it. You get about 30-40 people to use relatively new alts, and contract each other empty boxes such that you cannot scan down more than 1 layer. Put all these boxes in t1 industrial ships and set a huge autopilot loop up and down the major routes, and even to some side routes. 150 long auto pilot loops, etc. These decoys should cost no more than like 1m isk or so. When the gankers scan them, they will want to take a risk (what's in that contract box!?), but they will start getting frustrated when it's either nothing or a joke item every time.
The key to this trick is saturation and frequency. HiSec bears are notorious for not being herded easily, but if you did get enough people to willingly toss enough decoys into the waters to suitably give the gankers a headache, you may succeed without needing a new mechanic - the mechanics are there, you don't need anything new, but you do need the organization. Players should be responsible for their own emergent gameplay, not heavy hands of the developers.
It would take a while, it would take lots of people, but if enough tornado/vexor ganks stopped paying, and the field became too unprofitable due to how may bad targets there were, you might make an impact.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1145
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Posted - 2017.04.20 23:25:59 -
[12] - Quote
Leave HS. Problem solved. |
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
295
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Posted - 2017.04.21 01:48:10 -
[13] - Quote
How much risk could be added and where could it possibly go to disincentivize a freighter ganker like Ramstein, New Eden Revenue Service, or the illustrious Code. from a 5-20b payout per gank?
We already have plastic wrap and unscannable holds on certain ships and that seems to increase your odds of getting nailed. Maybe if the fake item would create a false list of items foe the scanner to read. But that would only work if the item list it generated persisted between systems and multiple scans. And it would have to be an item list that would feasibly fit in the ship's hold.
Not that any of that would matter, because eventually, the gankers would get wise to the item lists the algorythms would typically create, and then the cargo-faker would be the same "kill me now" bumpersticker that plastic wrap is.
The real solution for the gankees is to stop filling wet, cardboard boxes with expensive payloads and then autopiloting between hubs while they alt-tab and play Rocket League.
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Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
603
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Posted - 2017.04.21 02:26:48 -
[14] - Quote
I wish they would add a fake plex, undock out of Jita and a trigger happy ganker wastes some ISK+ egg on the face. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3323
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Posted - 2017.04.21 03:28:13 -
[15] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:I wish they would add a fake plex, undock out of Jita and a trigger happy ganker wastes some ISK+ egg on the face.
You're ok with the same fake PLEX being used to scam people right? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3956
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Posted - 2017.04.21 06:38:39 -
[16] - Quote
Longer gank timer and the risk adds itself naturally. Yes some other changes are needed alongside a longer gank timer, but the solution is actually that, give gankers longer to gank, and they will gank like they do now, with the bare minimum needed plus a small margin. And with longer timers people have more time to intervene. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3328
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Posted - 2017.04.21 13:56:15 -
[17] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Longer gank timer and the risk adds itself naturally. Yes some other changes are needed alongside a longer gank timer, but the solution is actually that, give gankers longer to gank, and they will gank like they do now, with the bare minimum needed plus a small margin. And with longer timers people have more time to intervene.
That only lower the cost of ganks. No sane person really want to stand on gates waiting for a gank to happen so they can shoot the gankers. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1227
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Posted - 2017.04.21 14:17:19 -
[18] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Maybe I'm being too suspicious, but I find it fun Ah another of the iditoic things we do in EvE, using a kill board to determine the value of a contribution to these forums. Someone posts and off you run to a kill board near you where you find nothing. Which leasd you to the assumption that the OP is most likely not a real ganker. So let's look at this with a more open and realistic point of view. Cargo scanning alts Bumping alts Scouting alts ORCA pilot Manufacturing alt Market trading alt I could go on but I will stop there. It is entirely possible, no it is likely that any or all of these alts would have no entries on their kill boards and yet they could all be controlled by a person with hundreds if not a thousand or more gank kills and the kill boards would not give you any clue to that fact.
oiukhp Muvila wrote:The problem is that the Cargo Scanner returns actual items which can be copy / paste into out of game applications that will estimate value based upon markets prices. Do you really think that your on screen pixel space ship actually has a scanner that actually scans another players pixel space ship also displayed on your screen and from the scan of those pixels on your screen determines what the ship is carrying? I hope so because I have some tropical water front property with a real snow covered ski slope in the back yard I would like to sell. Getting real here when you cargo scan a ship your client sends a request to the servers and the servers return to your client the contents of the ships cargo hold which in turn your client displays as the results of a scan that never actually happened. In the case of this fake cargo the servers would know about the fake cargo and what it was supposed to contain so when the servers handled the request for the contents of a ship the servers would simply return the list of fake items to your client that would then obediently display those fake items as the results of your cargo scan.
Frostys Virpio wrote:It literally can't unless we change how cargo scanner work. You would need a way to make the cargo scanner lie about what is in the hold. While it is not technically impossible to do so, CCP refused to have the API lie about a bunch of stuff when it was brought up that it effectively killed the utility of siphons. See above. To recap, scan results are nothing more than a server response to a request for information from a client. Since the servers know everything about every ship in their area of responsibility the servers would simply return the list of fake items which would then be displayed by your client as the results of a scan. |
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2017.04.21 14:34:56 -
[19] - Quote
Clearly a false flag post, it wouldn't do much overall though.
However If you could purchase a one time use, "concord upgrade (fat bribe) certificate" that you could activate prior to undock, and carry in your hold (runs out/expires when completing docking), that made concord come near instantly to protect you, then that would be far more interesting, especially if the expired item could still be carried.
Another use for those billions of concord LP floating around.
Code. Would of course approve, they have been issuing permits for years. How could they possibly object? a bit of competition is a good thing? Right? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3329
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Posted - 2017.04.21 15:00:46 -
[20] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote: See above. To recap, scan results are nothing more than a server response to a request for information from a client. Since the servers know everything about every ship in their area of responsibility the servers would simply return the list of fake items which would then be displayed by your client as the results of a scan.
Making the scanner report item X when it sees item Y in the cargo hold is literally changing how the cargo scanner work and that is exactly what I said would be needed for fake cargo to work. |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3957
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Posted - 2017.04.21 22:12:07 -
[21] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: That only lower the cost of ganks. No sane person really want to stand on gates waiting for a gank to happen so they can shoot the gankers.
Hence the other changes needed alongside, but the longer a gank takes to happen (to a point obviously, we don't want ganks taking 30 minutes), the more chance of interactions beyond what we currently get we have. To quickly summarise, I imagine transports being more like WW2 bombers than the modern freighters we have. Put one on it's own, easy pickings for the fighters (ala gankers). Put 10 of them all in the same spot though, and you have a bit of a different story, 10* gankers will still get them obviously, but 1* ganker can be beaten off at that point.
And before anyone brings up 'but you should need escorts'.... JF's, & Convoy escorts through Null. No-one pretends that Convoy escorts were fun then, so why pretend that HS should need something Null spent a lot of time complaining about as a bad game mechanic. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3885
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Posted - 2017.04.21 22:21:39 -
[22] - Quote
Whos gonna put ten haulers together?
Right now, ten nereus can do 600dps and they tank quite well. So do we not already have that?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
502
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Posted - 2017.04.21 22:35:06 -
[23] - Quote
A long time ago, I did an experiment with a buddy:
I'd put a container in my cargo hold, and named it: "30-Day Pilot's License Extension."
He scanned me and saw my ship was totally empty.
A signature :o
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3957
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Posted - 2017.04.21 23:22:16 -
[24] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Whos gonna put ten haulers together?
Right now, ten nereus can do 600dps and they tank quite well. So do we not already have that? Because the ganks are over so fast you don't get realistic chances to apply any of that DPS, and to make the Nerus do that you totally sacrifice hauling capability since cargo extenders don't have stacking penalties also (Which also stops BS having decent holds because of the fear of them using all their lows for extenders and replacing the haulers). Which makes them basically escorts, & we are back to square 1 of escorts being stupid. So yeah, for several reasons, which are easy enough to change. |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
38
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Posted - 2017.04.22 06:55:24 -
[25] - Quote
I suggested a Loot Trap a while back. The idea essentially was to have the trap disguise itself as another item, and then when this trap item was looted the warp capability of the ship would temporarily be shut down, along with other random debilitations.
The hitch was that cargo scanners would be able to find the traps. But if you make it so that the cargo scanner cannot find them within the ship, and only within the cargo container or wreck, it would likely still catch lots of people. |
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2017.04.22 08:29:45 -
[26] - Quote
This is silly, but has captured my imagination.
First off: mechanics. I assume they could make something work a certain way. Complaining about current mechanic limitations is inapplicable to an idea that would change the mechanics.
They could definitely put in an item that would lie to cargo scanners. This has nothing to do with API stuff, this is all ingame mechanics. We lie to each other all the time, this is just another way to do it. People lie with far more legit-looking shorted buy orders.
And the fake cargo could report to scanners exactly like actual cargo, reporting items with the same frequency. So it looks the same as regular cargo. Feed it into a tool that estimates the value, get the fake value.
No, this should not be another method of scamming INSIDE STATIONS (reasoning: the station crew checks). Nothing would stop you from telling someone to scan your fake cargo in space, though. And if you can pull that off into a scam, my hat is off to you and the target deserves it for being a dumbass.
But... SHOULD they do it? It would be hilarious, buy a few of the things, rig them into a really juicy-looking cargo, and fly around. If you fail, you make it to your destination having accomplished nothing. If you succeed, you... lose the ship, and the gankers lose their ships, some sec status, and a little dignity (if they have any).
I don't know. It could be fun.
I also think it would be interesting if people could carry around armed bombs in nullsec, though. Diminishing returns, of course (no industrials full of bombs, one-shotting capital ships). Like half damage per bomb, up to 9-10k damage for 5 bombs going off, when the first shot hits you into structure or you self-destruct?
Of course, then a lot of fleet fights could turn into a chain reaction of exploding ships, at certain engagement ranges. That would be pretty funny. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1228
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Posted - 2017.04.22 14:01:22 -
[27] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Making the scanner report item X when it sees item Y in the cargo hold is literally changing how the cargo scanner work and that is exactly what I said would be needed for fake cargo to work. Nothing has to change about how the scanners works. But first it is important for you to understand that you do not have a scanner on your pixel space ship. And your pixel space ship does not actually scan the target ship. The process is all handled between your client and the servers.
Before I go farther, No I do not know for sure how CCP handles these, what follows is based on 2 simple ideas and more than 3 decades of working with databases and minimizing server loads associated with those data bases. 1. You need to pass the minimum amount of data possible between server and client to reduce server work load. 2. never pass data between server and client unless it is required to perform an action on other side of the exchange. So based on that here is the most likely way that these interactions are handled.
1. You activate your scanner which informs your client that you want to scan the cargo hold of the target ship. 2.Your client sends the ID of the target ship and your request to scan the target ship to the servers. 3. The servers receive your request and go to the database and retrieves the contents of the target ships cargo hold. 4. The servers return that information to your client. 5. Your client formats that data and then displays it to you via the UI.
To make the OP idea work the ONLY thing that needs to change is the contents of that database and that would be handled when the cargo was loaded onto the ship, and even then nothing has really changed because you change the contents of the database when you load cargo real or fake.
Well there is one other thing that would have to change to make the OP idea work they may need to add a field to the database that would hold a single bit of data that would tell the servers if the item was a real item or a fake item, while this would add to server load in the grand scheme and considering the small (relative) number of times that 1 bit would have to be moved by the servers I cannot see any game degrading performance issues happening outside of some rare circumstances. |
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