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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
410
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Posted - 2017.04.21 23:24:14 -
[1] - Quote
I am pleased to announce the publication of a new Capsuleer news galnet site, The Federal Frontier. We have authors from all walks of life in the Federation providing news articles, opinion pieces, and other relevant media for your enjoyment and consumption.
If you wish to participate in this endeavor, please, contact me and I will get you registered with our trial contributor program.
Regards,
Julianus Soter
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
38
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Posted - 2017.04.21 23:33:03 -
[2] - Quote
News site? Sure, let-¦s take a look
First post: "Today is the Gallente holiday celebrating the signing of the Villore Accords and the subsequent declaration of war against the mendacious Caldari and their slavery endorsing allies, the Amarr."
Uhhh
ktnhxbye |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1678
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 03:08:50 -
[3] - Quote
I like the style and love the content analysis. In my estimation an excellent development.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75068
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Posted - 2017.04.22 10:03:38 -
[4] - Quote
I congratulate on the release, but I hope that it does not turn into one of those sites that seek to fuel the proxy war going on.
Death rides a fast C4mel
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Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
791
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Posted - 2017.04.22 10:42:23 -
[5] - Quote
It looks like an excellent new option for people who crave some low-grade yellow journalism, but have some kind of intestinal condition that makes them unable to stand Gutter Press's amount of flavor.
The fight is mostly the last 0-300km in a logistics chain.
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Coulter Phelps
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
18
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Posted - 2017.04.22 11:12:19 -
[6] - Quote
Nice rag.
Does it come in 2-Ply?
Colt.
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
32139
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 12:25:22 -
[7] - Quote
Actually Kyonoke Blues is nice to read. =ƒæì
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
417
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Posted - 2017.04.22 15:17:49 -
[8] - Quote
New out today, regarding the Defamation campaign on board H4-RP4, read it now!
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
1329
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 15:54:49 -
[9] - Quote
Bold claim stating that a defamation case overshadows a plague that killed in the nine digits. Especially when this is the first time many have heard of it. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
418
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 16:02:04 -
[10] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Bold claim stating that a defamation case overshadows a plague that killed in the nine digits. Especially when this is the first time many have heard of it.
Your faux concern for the lives of those affected by the Plague is truly touching, Madame Polevhia, particularly when you did your best to harm the event by destroying an engineering complex positioned to aid the effort.
Needless to say, the Scope and Ret Gloriaxx have showcased the more commonly heard news items, so our contribution to that space would be unnecessary. However, the additional story about this propaganda is interesting and deserves some investigation.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Ioannis Sepphiros
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2017.04.22 16:27:25 -
[11] - Quote
Great effort! |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3431
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 16:28:43 -
[12] - Quote
Oh, gods and spirits, I just....
A few pre-printed fliers and posters pop up at an Inquest into a brewing galaxy-wide biological threat slandering (apparently) a respected (in some circles) militia commander, and therefore "overshadow" the life-and-death-of-potentially-trillions proceedings and apparently result in people going and spending precious hours trying to ferret out the source of the attack, which could instead have been spent trying to resolve the crisis instead of trying to protect a single person's reputation? And not only does that investigation fail, but then becomes the subject of a "news" article focusing exclusively on this one rumor? (There were dozens; the Minmatar researchers seemed to be making a special if slightly confusing point of spreading them like crazy, including a rumor that they, that is the scientists, themselves, were psychotic.)
And then that article is introduced by the not-unconnected-to-the-journal target of the defamation effort? Really? Was this actually such an important part of the Inquest as that? Out of all the mysteries still swirling around the outbreak, that's the one you focus on? The Rook is still out there; the "council," whatever that is, is still out there; and THIS is what you're focusing on?
I just ... I don't understand why you'd think this was okay.
And what's more, you single out the Amarr for being inhumane? I was with the SFRIM delegation; Ms. Qerl and I worked alongside ARC throughout, and contributed our votes to the ARC voting pool. CVA's delegation, like the vast majority of everybody, voted not to glass the infected sites. And while the Amarr Empire itself did join the State in sponsoring the motion to vaporize the infected sites, they also put forth the proposal allowing mandatory distribution of the cure even to their own by-the-end deeply ill and very noisy doomsaying emissary (I expect) (eventually) (at the time we were a little preoccupied with other things to be bothered holding him down while the cure was administered, or to remember that treating him involuntarily was an option, and, actually, mandated by the measure we'd passed just two days before). That "inhumane" measure is what laid the groundwork for mass distribution of Agent 0410 by aerosol.
Between the primary focus on the slight to Mr. Soter's reputation and the slander (!) on myself and my fellow delegates (who is responsible? We must investigate immediately so that we can scowl fiercely at them!) (What's that? A problem that could threaten populations cluster-wide unless we respond effectively, and at once? Eh-- it can wait; our egos are more important!), this article seems likely to be at least as damaging to certain reputations as any limited-circulation poster campaign possibly could have been. |
Lasairiona Raske
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
326
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 16:40:45 -
[13] - Quote
After reading the article, and Aria's post, I have to say, poor show to Mr. Soter. Do we really need another news source like this? I don't think so.
Are you a devil or an angel
Sent here from heaven or from hell?
Sweet temptress, I'm wrapped in your tangles
Can't find my way out of your spell
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
895
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 16:58:08 -
[14] - Quote
Lasairiona Raske wrote:After reading the article, and Aria's post, I have to say, poor show to Mr. Soter. Do we really need another news source like this? I don't think so. What does it hurt?
As strength goes.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9548
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 17:01:01 -
[15] - Quote
Honestly, pilots, Soter just craves attention. This latest grandstanding is par for the course.
As for reaching across the divide, to be honest, I don't recall any particular GMVA effort aside from Tarek Raimo hovering near the ARC station, or evidently trailing ILF Mahesha Bataav, and a brief and largely characterless speech by Soter on day three. I'd've expected to see a legitimate push to spike the Caldari resolution on Day 2, or a push on Day 3 to add a rider to one of the resolutions castigating the State.
Fortunately, the GMVA delegation appeared to lack coordination or motivation.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1578
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 17:03:35 -
[16] - Quote
Well that's a whole lot of protest over an inconsequential little article from a source that is self-declared biased and honest about that. Someone struck a nerve, and it'd seem there's quite a lot of antipathy towards a new rival on the "not-scope-news" side of things.
While there hasn't been a news source on these boards that can be trusted at all for ages - Scope, Discourse, this new rag, etc - it's somewhat amusing that this one gets such sudden, loud and loquacious protests aimed its way.
Perhaps bruised egos are more plentiful than one'd think. |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
59
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Posted - 2017.04.22 17:23:04 -
[17] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:
As for reaching across the divide, to be honest, I don't recall any particular GMVA effort aside from Tarek Raimo hovering near the ARC station, or evidently trailing ILF Mahesha Bataav, and a brief and largely characterless speech by Soter on day three. I'd've expected to see a legitimate push to spike the Caldari resolution on Day 2, or a push on Day 3 to add a rider to one of the resolutions castigating the State.
Fortunately, the GMVA delegation appeared to lack coordination or motivation.
When we are part of a multi-ethnic and multi-racial nation, we can not dictate or even expect the behaviour of our fellow citizens. I am the first to freely admit, that many of the Villore Accords capsuleers suffer from the psychological issues most capsuleers have a problem with: Many of them tend to be overly self-centered and uncaring of the fate of baseliners.
As a Caldari and AFAIK (former?) corporate citizen of Ishukone, I am sure you will be able to understand what it means to support the spirit of a nation rather than standing behind each and every one of its constituent groups.
As a Jin-Mei I favour a more nuanced and thoughtful approach and hence I openly supported Arataka Research Consortium because I welcome every effort to work together. Also, I was not "trailing" Bataav, but due to my own political leanings I am actively trying to mend the fence between the Intaki and our own people. While many of my people consider the Intaki tendency to endorse individualism so strongly somewhat frivolous, we also share an affinity with them when it comes to the spiritual.
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Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
59
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 17:27:38 -
[18] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote: Bold claim stating that a defamation case overshadows a plague that killed in the nine digits. Especially when this is the first time many have heard of it.
Surprising to see a Sansha supporter being concerned about the loss of human lives, or is it that you counted the casualties and regretted not having abducted and transformed them into your own puppets? |
Saccade Amir
University of Caille Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2017.04.22 17:29:40 -
[19] - Quote
hay hay HAAAAAAAAy guess who's relevant media now yeah it's me
looking forward to bringing you the best of the federation with the standards of quality and discretion you've come to expect
**** yeah |
Syenna Celeste
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
62
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 17:43:05 -
[20] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote: Your faux concern for the lives of those affected by the Plague is truly touching, Madame Polevhia, particularly when you did your best to harm the event by destroying an engineering complex positioned to aid the effort.
Your weapons research station, operating with data we had reason to believe had been exfiltrated from the H4-RP4 facility unlawfully.
Besides, your mooks destroyed one of my more treasured weapons research projects in 117. I decided it was about time I got you back for that.
Put your hands around my heart and squeeze me until I'm dry.
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John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation 404 Alliance Not Found
683
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 18:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nice try.
Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
419
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 21:34:39 -
[22] - Quote
Tarek Raimo, counter intelligence officer for GMVA, provides his thoughts on the possibility and benefits of reunification between the Caldari State and the Gallente Federation.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7455
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 23:25:27 -
[23] - Quote
I would like to commend GMVA and Commander Soter personally on this fine effort that is of great value and importance to any pilot in the cluster.
When one is trying to purge an infection, after all, encysting the worst of the pus and muck to a single location where it can be safely ignored is an excellent first step.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
42
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 23:42:43 -
[24] - Quote
The Case for Re-unification is a surprisingly ok text.
Not that i agree with it, but it-¦s not the hate spilling content from the first texts. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1684
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 01:35:04 -
[25] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Honestly, pilots, Soter just craves attention. This latest grandstanding is par for the course. Ok, you did it again, this is twice in two days that you have made me laugh. But today it was irony, not humor.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9554
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 02:13:20 -
[26] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Ok, you did it again, this is twice in two days that you have made me laugh. But today it was irony, not humor.
So few of us have your understated style, you roguish master spy, you.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1085
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 02:48:35 -
[27] - Quote
Oh no, something un-apologetically Gallentean!
ATTACK IT! KILL IT! DESTROY IT!
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Tsao Aubbes
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
85
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 03:51:08 -
[28] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:Oh no, something un-apologetically Gallentean!
ATTACK IT! KILL IT! DESTROY IT! ..I'm not sure that's, umm, what people were saying, Mr. Galente. They were commenting on the news being more.. umm.. biased, y-yknow.
Tressith Sefira > You don't understand. She IS the awkward.
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
421
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 04:01:59 -
[29] - Quote
Tsao Aubbes wrote:Jason Galente wrote:Oh no, something un-apologetically Gallentean!
ATTACK IT! KILL IT! DESTROY IT! ..I'm not sure that's, umm, what people were saying, Mr. Galente. They were commenting on the news being more.. umm.. biased, y-yknow.
*Uploads his response while drinking drinking some nice, delicious, Caille-style iced tea*
I'd make a comment how it's hysterical for a Caldari statist to judge media bias...
But that's none of my business.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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James Syagrius
Reclamation
1685
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 04:19:30 -
[30] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Ok, you did it again, this is twice in two days that you have made me laugh. But today it was irony, not humor.
So few of us have your understated style, you roguish master spy, you. I think... I should be flattered... but understated? I am a bit long in the tooth to be roguish and master spy, if I were such wouldn't I be a bit more circumspect in my presentation?
No, I fear I am a humble trader and nothing more. Though thank you for the complement... I think.
Now speculation on the 'truth' of you, is a much more interesting topic. Perhaps The Federal Frontier should do a feature?
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3448
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 04:19:32 -
[31] - Quote
I don't know, Mr. Soter. Just about everybody in the State grew up getting most of our media from NOH, and yet its reputation is still terrible, not to mention shadowy and suspicious.
A fun game you can play with NOH broadcasts: listen carefully, then try to guess what really happened. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1087
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 06:35:01 -
[32] - Quote
Tsao Aubbes wrote:Jason Galente wrote:Oh no, something un-apologetically Gallentean!
ATTACK IT! KILL IT! DESTROY IT! ..I'm not sure that's, umm, what people were saying, Mr. Galente. They were commenting on the news being more.. umm.. biased, y-yknow.
All news is biased, I'd rather my outlets are at least honest about their angle and I can shop accordingly.
The dialogue about this little venture seems to be as follows.
Soter: "Hi yes I am making a news outlet that is for Gallenteans and mostly written by highly invested people in GalMill. I just want to lay that out there so people know what they're getting int -"
People that seem to have an ongoing feud with Soter and are clearly not the target audience of this news service: "OMG THIS ARTICLE DOESN'T LIKE THAT THE AMARR HOLD SLAVES AND THAT IS SOMEHOW NOT OK TO POINT OUT BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS TOO."
Soter: "Wha?-"
Same people (with the addition of a 'grr Gallente' bandwagoner or two): "YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. THIS IS NOT TO MY TASTES AND THEREFOR SHOULDN'T EXIST."
..And I'm only slightly exaggerating, is the thing.. And yeah, there are some valid points, like with the whole personal slander thing not being as important as dealing with Kyonoke. But when someone makes up a straight-up lie about you, and you're a respect-oriented person, your first reaction to that isn't always the most productive. I can sort of understand the urge, and it's far from somehow wrong to defend yourself, no matter the circumstances. It's just, perhaps, not as good as you could be. But it's not wrong.
TL;DR I wish people who knew they weren't going to like a service because it wasn't designed for them, would just have the decency to stay away, or say "This isn't my thing" instead of stirring the pot for kicks, and trying to say that it shouldn't exist at all.
Lastly, since I know at least one mouth-breather is going to think I'm some sort of GalMill boot licker if I don't criticize something about this (and indeed there is plenty to criticize, in my opinion), I will say, Soter, that your writers calling the Caldari "mendacious", is, well, just silly. I lived in the State for 5 years, and if there's one insulting thing I would say you can't really say about them, it's that they're liars. Rather, the Caldari I knew were brutally honest, something I deeply admire about them.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
800
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 06:49:57 -
[33] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:And yeah, there are some valid points.. Rather, yes. Your argument seems to be "look, you can't complain about being slandered in Gallentean propaganda because it's aimed at Gallente, not you," which is.. breathtakingly inane.
Jason Galente wrote:Lastly, since I know at least one mouth-breather is going to think I'm some sort of GalMill boot licker[..] I wouldn't accuse you of licking Soter's boot, exactly.
The fight is mostly the last 0-300km in a logistics chain.
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Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
1992
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 07:16:18 -
[34] - Quote
I can only hope it will get better with time.
Akrasjel Lanate
CEO of Lanate Industries
Citizen of Solitude
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3450
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 07:27:46 -
[35] - Quote
... so ... a few things, Mr. Galente.
The Inquest ended two weeks ago, and it seems like the priority for Mr. Soter is still the posters. We're a little past first reactions. (And second, and third.)
This is the Intergalactic Summit. Stuff you post here, you reeeeeeeeally don't get to limit the audience or commentariat for. It's one of the reasons my journal's a little more private these days. It's also a quality I really appreciate it for-- if I mess up, there will, for sure, be someone with a keen interest in highlighting the mistake. If you publish a periodical full of deeply unfair stuff, you should expect to meet hostility when you bring it here unless you can somehow disarm that reaction (Muck Raker's not exactly unbiased).
Attacking the Amarr for holding slaves is one thing. Just as other people's various awfulnesses don't negate that one, though, it also doesn't validate each and every criticism anyone directs at the Empire. The criticism of the Empire's delegation wasn't based on slavery; it was based on the proposal that the infected sites should be obliterated, which the Empire offered jointly with the State.
And if we hadn't found the cure-- and it was by no means clear at the start of Day 3 that we would-- it might have had to be done. That might have ended up being the right call. In the end, the delegates from the Empire, much like almost everyone else, voted not to do such a thing. We didn't have to, so we didn't.
Finally, if someone advertised a Caldari-oriented journal here that featured articles on the evils of bloodline interbreeding, the importance of suppressing dissent, the theft of Caldari culture by "uplifted" Achura, the relative wisdom of perhaps just exterminating "client" peoples rather than tolerating and even (gasp) protecting them, and the belief that persons of Gallentean ancestry are genetically predisposed to be both weak and treacherous, would you really be telling me that I shouldn't complain because it's not for me?
Or would you be squawking right alongside me? |
Muck Raker
Gutter Press
758
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 08:20:56 -
[36] - Quote
The production values of The Federal Frontier are extremely high, and the effort put in to achieve this level of slick professionalism must be appreciated. Would I be right that the Federal Frontier is perhaps more accessible to personal data devices than the IGS ?
I, for one, welcome the addition of another viewpoint in the news-o-sphere.
Rumours, Wars, Rumours of Wars, Wars of Rumours!
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Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
44
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Posted - 2017.04.23 09:27:11 -
[37] - Quote
I-¦m impressed by the hability of this communication line to factionalize every damn thing that happen in the cluster.
The title says: "The Federal Frontier: A new Federation-focused Capsuleer news site". I look at it to see if we have more good material like The Scope news (that are getting too slow to report things) (And was also Gallente), and all i see is an Opinion Site.
Nothing wrong on having opinions, i know people value theirs very much as if it meant something, but i was expecting a News site.
We live in a universe where we have 5 factions with administrative control on a lethal police force with absurd strong tech that persecutes us capsuleers, where strange powerful sleeping/awakened beings send automated seekers that collect corpses so they can leave a virtual world created who know when and how, where an ancient faction supposed to be dead is now pretty much all around collecting data from observatory posts that belonged to another ancient powerful faction that gave their power away and appears to have disappeared for good after a huge stellar explosion visible from all around the known universe offlined their entire stargate network and perhaps their entire advanced civilization, that was beign sacked by a powerful hive mind leader that kidnaps millions of people to increase his hive mind army on incursions that disrupt the economy production and business of the cluster no matter the security of the system, arriving in ways that appear to bend the known laws of pyshics creating wormholes to travel around the very fabric of space and time, wormholes that started to appear after a catastrophic event that took many lives and destroyed planets, and the list goes on and on....
But all i got was "Ammar are slavers, Caldari are evil"
I-¦m sure the frustration can be understood.
As for caldari beign anti-intellectual Aria Jenneth, come to Saisio so we can have a little chat over a very interesting tea that will may open new doors for you.
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
425
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 13:44:33 -
[38] - Quote
The opinion articles posted are to provide the tableau of thoughts from our constituent contributors out into the open. The news is to follow. Stay tuned.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Stig Elendil
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
15
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Posted - 2017.04.23 13:56:35 -
[39] - Quote
Always nice to have a new press element.
But... Is this truely news or just a militia newspaper ? I'm always circonspect to see a military organisation publishing news.
I can only hope that there will be lot more news with lot more views than just the nationalist point of view. I hope we'll see papers about culture, sports, education, sciences, diplomacy and so on...
I am Gallente. Same as i can't support extremists point of view in Caldari I can't support it either in my own Federation. We all know what factionalism/extremism brings to us...
Farewell in your press life.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3228
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 14:50:51 -
[40] - Quote
I really do like the idea of the site. There's nothing wrong with an unabashedly Federal-leaning news outlet, after all, and as long as they're making their biases open and honest, the articles should be able to be read through that lens. That said..
The writing isn't great, but that's not the writers' fault. Every writer makes mistakes, every writer has room to improve (myself especially). That's why editors exist. The writers on that site aren't being helped by the decidedly sub-par editingGÇöif there is any at all.
Example:
Tarek Raimo wrote:Of course the knee-jerk reaction would be to point at the recent Provist movement and use it as an example of the continuing threat the Caldari pose for our way of life. We must not forget GÇô however GÇô that the followers of Tibus Heth were ultimately censored and expelled by the Caldari State itself, and before we fault the Caldari for embracing an extremist ideology we should look at the history of our own nation. We have also once collectively fallen into the trap of jingoistic, racist warmongers and believed that only they can lead us to greatness. It is an easy pill to swallow, especially under duress. I can only commend our Intaki brethren for the courage they showed back in those days. They would not allow themselves to be swept up in the current of political extremism, often to their own peril. On the Caldari side we can see an equally courageous faction GÇô the Ishukone Corporation GÇô who have risked much in opposing Tibus Heth and the more nationalistic Caldari factions.
The problems start right at the beginning of the paragraph.
1. "Of course" is a transitive phrase, providing a bridge from the preceding sentence (and in this case, paragraph) into this one. A transitive phrase is always offset by a comma. 2. The entire compound sentence is too long. This isn't a grammatical error so much as poor writing, something an editor is there to correct. The sentence should be broken up. Also, threats are posed to things, not for things. 3. The en-dash (GÇô) is used completely incorrectly. An en-dash is used to connect a series of numbers, such as YC88GÇô110, or join a multi-word descriptor to another word in a complex adjective. In this usage, the en-dash is similar to, but subtly different from, the hyphen used in simpler compound adjectives. An example is "artillery-wielding madman" (hypen) vs. "1400mm Howitzer Artillery IIGÇôwielding madman" (en-dash). Note that the em-dash (GÇö) is used in a completely different manner as well, but is probably what was intended here, as indicated by later usage of the en-dash. The correct puncuation to offset "however" is, however, commas. 4. Again, the sentence is too long. The longer the sentence, the more likely you are to bore and confuse the reader. Shorter sentences also let the reader keep their place if interrupted. Break this sentence up. 5. Next sentence is sloppy. 'We have also'; does this mean 'we've done this in addition to other things' or 'they aren't the only ones who've done this'? 6. Unless the warmongers were actively setting a trap for the Gallente people, the Gallente people fell under their sway, not into their trap. 7. Tense disagreement: 'believe only they can'. Eitheri t's past-tense or present-tense. Not both. 8. Next sentence: pretty good, on its own. In the context of the literary flow, though, it needs more work. It also marks a slight change in the direction of the writer's thought. As a result, it might be the right place to break this into two smaller paragraphs to make things easier for the reader. 9. Next sentence: good, but awkward. Is there a reason to bring the Intaki into this? If not, don't. If there is, lead into them better. As it is, it feels like jumping tracks. The reader is not in the author's mind. Always remember that. 10. Next: again, awkward. Break it up and expand the final clause into its own thought. 11. Final sentence: We again start with a transitivie phrase. Need s a comma. 12. Improper use of en-dash again. This is clearly meant to be an em-dash, which would be appropriate, but which does not use spaces. 13. The man loves his long sentences. I can relate. I once had an editor tell me I had an entire paragraph that had seventeen commas and one period. Grammatically-perfect, but hard to read. 14. There's also a lot of passive voice and adverbs in there. Kill both. With extreme prejudice.
Result:
With an editor.. wrote: Of course, the knee-jerk reaction would be to point at the recent Provist movement. For many, it is an example of the continuing threat the Caldari pose to our way of life. We must not forget, however, that the followers of Tibus Heth were ultimately censored and expelled by the Caldari State itself. Before we fault the Caldari for embracing an extremist ideology we should look at the history of our own nation. Once, we too fell under the sway of jingoistic, racist warmongers. We believed that only they could lead us to greatness.
That kind of thinking is an easy pill to swallow. It gets even easier under duress. But there will always be those who avoid that trap. That's less easy. Our Intaki brethren showed great courage in those days. They did not allow themselves to be swept up in the current of political extremism. They should be commended for that courage, for it came often at their own peril. On the Caldari side we can see an equally courageous factionGÇöthe Ishukone CorporationGÇöwho risked much in opposing Tibus Heth. Even now, they continue to resist, and risk, in the face of more nationalistic Caldari factions.
So, yeah. Good idea. Nothing at all wrong with the idea. Needs better execution. |
|
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
425
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 14:53:38 -
[41] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:I really do like the idea of the site. There's nothing wrong with an unabashedly Federal-leaning news outlet, after all, and as long as they're making their biases open and honest, the articles should be able to be read through that lens. That said..
The writing isn't great, but that's not the writers' fault. Every writer makes mistakes, every writer has room to improve (myself especially). That's why editors exist. The writers on that site aren't being helped by the decidedly sub-par editingGÇöif there is any at all.
Example:.
I'll contact you regarding your assistance in our editing program...
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3229
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 14:57:33 -
[42] - Quote
Also: in "Kyonoke Inquest Overshadowed by Defamation":
One of the individuals who is quoted, and has their actions described, is "Counter-intelligence operative Tarek Raimo". The author. This is disengenuous and cheap, as it attempts to distance Raimo-as-authort from Raimo-as-subject. Writers: don't do this. Editors: don't let them. Identify that that's you, and present that bit as direct observation. Own your perspective, or you'll find yourself accused of deception and fraud, and your credibility (and that of the entire site that publishes your work) tarnished.
It's likely not an intentional deception in this case. It almost never is. It's just a writer trying to 'be objective'.
Nobody is objective. Never. No reporter is objective. No editorializer is objective. Ever. It's not possible: you will always have your subjective viewpoint. Own it. Acknowledge it. Let your reader know 'this is what I saw directly, it is influenced by my experience' rather than 'this was events as recorded and/or reconstructed from multiple accounts. Even when you're giving quotes. Especially when you're giving quotes.
And why the hell are you quoting yourself? You're the writer. Just say it. Quoting yourself reads like you're trying to give yourself more of an air of authority than your reader would otherwise give you. Tell the reader you're an experienced COINTEL operative and go from there.
But again: this is something lots of writers do. They don't mean to be creating false impressions, they're just not necessarily experienced COINTEL operatives and experienced reporters. That's why there are editors. And if there aren't editors there (and it looks a lot like there aren't) then get some. Because you need it. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3229
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 14:58:33 -
[43] - Quote
Quote:I'll contact you regarding your assistance in our editing program...
Not likely to have the time, I'm afraid. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1583
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 15:31:14 -
[44] - Quote
Do you have any idea how much time that woman needs to meet her shiptoasting quotas? |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
46
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 15:37:44 -
[45] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Do you have any idea how much time that woman needs to meet her shiptoasting quotas?
With all that brain and looks too.... *sigh* |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
62
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 16:47:14 -
[46] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:. And if we hadn't found the cure-- and it was by no means clear at the start of Day 3 that we would-- it might have had to be done. That might have ended up being the right call. In the end, the delegates from the Empire, much like almost everyone else, voted not to do such a thing. We didn't have to, so we didn't.
I beg to differ. By the end of the third day when it was clear that a vaccine had been produced, an Amarr clergyman still fervently called for the destruction of the outbreak site. I also heard several Amarr capsuleers express that they "didn't believe" in the vaccine because of strong Minmatar involvement and they also still supported destruction.
To begin with, I would say it was never a prerogative of the Amarr to call for the destruction of Myrskaa. It is not their territory and therefore not their call to make
Quote: Finally, if someone advertised a Caldari-oriented journal here that featured articles on the evils of bloodline interbreeding, the importance of suppressing dissent, the theft of Caldari culture by "uplifted" Achura, the relative wisdom of perhaps just exterminating "client" peoples rather than tolerating and even (gasp) protecting them, and the belief that persons of Gallentean ancestry are genetically predisposed to be both weak and treacherous, would you really be telling me that I shouldn't complain because it's not for me?
You mean if Diana Kim were to start a Provist propaganda site?
Personally I would welcome that because by following those who support such a publication we would be able to pinpoint the remnants of Provist threat that plague us all. |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
62
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 16:56:44 -
[47] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: And why the hell are you quoting yourself? You're the writer. Just say it. Quoting yourself reads like you're trying to give yourself more of an air of authority than your reader would otherwise give you. Tell the reader you're an experienced COINTEL operative and go from there.
No idea how to indicate an out-of-character response, but this is one.
This was unintentional. The whole thing is written as an in-character perspective, the whole thing about me being the "counter-intelligence-operative" was a running gag that we came up with during the Fanfest proceedings. I wrote the piece but it wasn't intended to be published in my name.
Those first few articles went through virtually no editing, it's all teething problems and for the rest pretty much not super serious
Also, if you think my sentences are too long and lack proper inter-punctuation, consider yourself lucky that you never have to edit pieces written by Apothne
As for the rest, all your editing suggestions are sound, although I would debate the en-dash/em-dash issue with you until the cows come home. |
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
408
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 18:28:41 -
[48] - Quote
I welcome and endorse any source of Intel.
The activities of Gallente loyalists in New Eden seem to consequently generate lucrative business opportunities for us. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1090
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 18:35:55 -
[49] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Jason Galente wrote:And yeah, there are some valid points.. Rather, yes. Your argument seems to be "look, you can't complain about being slandered in Gallentean propaganda because it's aimed at Gallente, not you," which is.. breathtakingly inane. Jason Galente wrote:Lastly, since I know at least one mouth-breather is going to think I'm some sort of GalMill boot licker[..] I wouldn't accuse you of licking Soter's boot, exactly.
To the first point, I actually agree with you which is why I criticized that slanderous statement. I never found the Caldari to be particularly "mendacious" when I lived amongst them. You seem to be bad at reading.
To the second, err, 'point', a Sansha sympathizer acting like classless white trash? Surprise surprise. And you complained about slander?
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1090
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 18:42:23 -
[50] - Quote
Wow, Arrendis. Actually helpful criticism?
+1
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1688
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 19:18:31 -
[51] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:There MUST be an angle! Well I misread angle as an angel, that got my attention. But still, such cynicism is disheartening.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3456
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 19:26:23 -
[52] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:There MUST be an angle! Well I misread angle as an angel, that got my attention. But still, such cynicism is disheartening. Did you really just ignore everything I said after? Including immediately after? |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
807
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 19:34:30 -
[53] - Quote
"I actually agree with you, but you're classless trash" is the best defense you could come up with?
The fight is mostly the last 0-300km in a logistics chain.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3456
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 19:37:18 -
[54] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:I beg to differ. By the end of the third day when it was clear that a vaccine had been produced, an Amarr clergyman still fervently called for the destruction of the outbreak site. I also heard several Amarr capsuleers express that they "didn't believe" in the vaccine because of strong Minmatar involvement and they also still supported destruction.
To begin with, I would say it was never a prerogative of the Amarr to call for the destruction of Myrskaa. It is not their territory and therefore not their call to make
The doomsayer was a very sick man even on Day 1. He wasn't even about on Day 2. By Day 3, he was ranting his luckless head off. Kyonoke affects the brain, or had you forgotten?
I still wish I'd remembered that we'd approved involuntary treatment; I did get him to the lab, but he wouldn't sit still to be cured.
The call for the destruction of affected areas was a joint proposal by both the Caldari and Amarr-- and Myrskaa is in Caldari territory. (The Amarr also had an infected zone within their territory, though that was in the SOCT station that, kind of impressively, actually managed to keep the pathogen quarantined.)
And I can't really speak to what you might have heard Amarrian capsuleers say, pilot. I was present as part of the SFRIM delegation, and we were working with ARC; CVA voted with us in the end, I believe; I'm not sure there was another Amarrian loyalist element present. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1092
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 20:19:51 -
[55] - Quote
Jev North wrote:"I actually agree with you, but you're classless trash" is the best defense you could come up with?
No, fool, it's called addressing separate points.
I'm not in the business of 'defending myself', because that itself concedes ground. If you make a point, and I agree with it, I'll say "I agree with that as a factual statement". You ruin it for yourself by making a point as if you intend to participate in a dialectic, and then personally attacking the person you're conversing with.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3233
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 21:06:43 -
[56] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:Wow, Arrendis. Actually helpful criticism?
+1
Behold the power of Pedantry. |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
62
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 23:12:02 -
[57] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I still wish I'd remembered that we'd approved involuntary treatment; I did get him to the lab, but he wouldn't sit still to be cured.
How odd. An Amarr-supported resolution for forced vaccination with an agent that was at this time purely experimental, but by the time it was actually effective you couldn't persuade one of your clergy who was - according to you - delusional to submit to treatment.
You attempt to defend your Empire's proposed extreme measure, but yet you also claim to be unable to rally your own people for treatment. At the same time you hide behind the State's desperation. Where do you really stand in all of this?
My eyes were opened by ARC when they explained to me why they voted against the "no extreme measures" proposal. I understood that this would have lead to a potential outcome where the Caldari would be the only nation stuck with a planetside outbreak. Why were you so eager to sentence Caldari citizens to death? Did you seek to weaken the Caldari even more so they would remain beholden to your Empire?
Gallente capsuleers were in acceptance of a measure that went against the desires of the Federation, while Amarr capsuleers simply sought to maintain superiority over the proceedings and keep the most inhumane options open for them.
Clearly, even as capsuleers you remain incapable of leaving the tenet of Amarr superiority behind. There is nothing that can be construed as a defence for that divisive and extremist clergyman, and as outsiders it was him we saw most prominent during the proceedings.
You are a capsuleer and you were called upon to be a judge over millions, yet you passively yielded the stage to a man who you yourself declare as delusional.
You and all other Amarr capsuleers should have reigned that madmen in, but you couldn't because you are still subject to an outdated hierarchy which does not allow you to do so.
Maybe you learned something from this |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3458
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 23:45:47 -
[58] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:Maybe you learned something from this
So far, mostly, sir? That you don't actually know what my beliefs and/or loyalties are or why.
(It's understandable; I'm an outlier.)
What I'm not really getting is why you'd hold me (or anybody) responsible for the doomsayer, who was, quite directly, sick. There were rumors early on that the holy water at the shrine was tainted, and this did actually turn out to be the case. How long he'd been ill it was a little hard to say, but he was already raving a bit on Day 1. By Day 3 he was ... as you saw.
I won't say religion had nothing to do with that, but he wasn't sane at that point, either. Possibly he wasn't, before the Inquest, either, but ... that's a little hard to say.
But-- returning to your thoughts: I didn't exercise authority over someone I perceived myself to have no authority over ... and this is bad?
It's not like there was a chain of command; we were, as we normally are as capsuleers, independent operators. In that role, having no authority to stop him, I kind of did what I could. I tried to get his microphone; it didn't work. I conspired with a ally of the moment to steal his hat, hoping he'd be reluctant to continue without proper marks of authority; he continued preaching without it. I tried to get him to submit to treatment; he wouldn't have it. We even tried to file a noise complaint with SoCT security!
It was a little tempting to tie him up, gag him, and leave him in the back row of the meeting hall (maybe get him the cure while we were at it), but then we'd have been the security issue.
In the end, it's not like he had voting power himself or authority to command us. He was just a distraction. I knew he wasn't exactly representing the Empire well, but, we had bigger issues. Like making sure we finished the cure and caught the saboteur before he could undo whatever good we'd done.
Making sure, in other words, those Caldari citizens you seem for some reason to think I wanted dead, didn't have to wind up that way. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
48
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 00:20:46 -
[59] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: I kind of did what I could. I tried to get his microphone; it didn't work. I conspired with a ally of the moment to steal his hat, hoping he'd be reluctant to continue without proper marks of authority; he continued preaching without it. I tried to get him to submit to treatment; he wouldn't have it. We even tried to file a noise complaint with SoCT security!
That sounds like fun. Will we ever get a tale about what happened on the day by day of the inquest ? No fancy reports needed (i-¦m sure they are on their way), but an account on the sausage making process on the days.
|
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
780
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 01:44:21 -
[60] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote: I kind of did what I could. I tried to get his microphone; it didn't work. I conspired with a ally of the moment to steal his hat, hoping he'd be reluctant to continue without proper marks of authority; he continued preaching without it. I tried to get him to submit to treatment; he wouldn't have it. We even tried to file a noise complaint with SoCT security!
That sounds like fun. Will we ever get a tale about what happened on the day by day of the inquest ? No fancy reports needed (i-¦m sure they are on their way), but an account on the sausage making process on the days.
Seconded.
~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~
"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn."
-Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
|
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3463
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 03:35:57 -
[61] - Quote
Actually, I've been putting off finishing my report for the Societas. Everything I could write just seems....
Fragmentary. Unfinished, and unfinishable. So partial as to be nearly useless, for the purpose of really understanding what went on. There was just so much going on that it was hard for me to keep track of even a tiny bit of it, and what's more I wasn't remotely in charge of anything at all. I was mostly just an agent for ARC; a parting of ways at some point was technically possible (we're allies, not a single organization, after all), but such a point never came.
I had very much a "supporting cast" view of history in the making. An extra's view, even. "Random ARC capsuleer #48."
Maybe it would be worthwhile to start up a thread to get a more complete picture of what people saw and thought. I might start one up, even.
I haven't the energy right now, but ... I'll think about it a little. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9562
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 06:23:17 -
[62] - Quote
To be fair, Ms. Jenneth, we were all supporting cast. With so many capsuleers working, with so much intrigue, there is only so much any one capsuleer could take the stage.
Consider: ARC issued approximately two hundred associate badges.
But even lost among the masses, the amendment that you pushed on day two sparked the conversation that may have resulted in the Gallente-Minmatar Hope act being put forward on day three. Indeed, I recall the very conversation with Dr. Veranne and Society compliance officer Riv Netee where transparency was discussed as a possible day three act, when we were negotiating your amendment.
So, Mr. Raimo might be entertained to hear, in a way, the Hope act originated with SFRIM.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3463
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 14:35:50 -
[63] - Quote
That's really nice of you to say, Ms. Priano, but even in such a case the link's too attenuated for us to claim any real credit for.
But-- you're definitely right that we all had fragmentary parts. Maybe we should see whether we can set up something for assembling them, here on the IGS? I've been thinking over "rules" for such a thing: maybe, each post to contain a single story, ask a single question, or answer one (to prevent walls of text getting constructed)? Otherwise, it seems like free-form is the way to go with such a thing.
Thoughts? |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
432
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 15:35:56 -
[64] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:I welcome and endorse any source of Intel.
The activities of Gallente loyalists in New Eden seem to consequently generate lucrative business opportunities for us.
So long as they are in highsec, I suppose *chuckles*
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
812
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 16:19:51 -
[65] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:So long as they are in highsec, I suppose *chuckles* You.. can't motivate your people to defend your and your allies' assets in hisec, and this is a dig against us, I suppose?
The fight is mostly the last 0-300km in a logistics chain.
|
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
781
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 22:26:59 -
[66] - Quote
Pilot Soter, I indicated on another platform that I would be looking into the origins of the posters. I have not forgotten that, just become frighteningly more busy. Your prize is lucrative enough to make sure it remains high on my priority list to compose a compelling expose!
~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~
"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn."
-Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
64
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 00:10:42 -
[67] - Quote
IIRC CCP Falcon said that they will collect all the stories emerging from the event and do "something" with them. You never know with CCP though. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1690
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 01:42:43 -
[68] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:There MUST be an angle! Well I misread angle as an angel, that got my attention. But still, such cynicism is disheartening. Did you really just ignore everything I said after? Including immediately after? I fear yes, but such happens when one tends to the wordy.
Not to mention I am easily distracted. But is my observation not accurate?
You do seem to be rather... well perhaps the less said the better.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3240
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 02:09:24 -
[69] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote: fear yes, but such happens when one tends to the wordy.
Not to mention I am easily distracted.
So, the message you want to send here is "I'm going to challenge what you claim, but I won't actually pay attention to your answer. I'm just going to imagine you said what I want to reply to, and reply to it"?
Can you at least throw in a 'and this is why the somethingsomething must be destroyed' so we can place you, Kim, and Ronin together in one easily-defined group, and go looking for an Amarr equivalent (I dunno, Vaari?) to dump in the 'ignore this' box with you?
Quote: But is my observation not accurate?
How would you know? You've already admitted to ignoring everything you complained about as being cynical! |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3483
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 05:13:41 -
[70] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:I fear yes, but such happens when one tends to the wordy.
Not to mention I am easily distracted. But is my observation not accurate?
You do seem to be rather... well perhaps the less said the better.
You make me so sad.
Sometimes my perspective on things does strike people as kind of dark (or else naive), but ... well....
Here's the full context:
Aria Jenneth wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Now speculation on the 'truth' of you, [Makoto Priano,] is a much more interesting topic. Eee! Isn't it interesting? Loyal Caldari pilot with ties to Zainou Biotech who pretty consistently actually seems to want to cooperatively tackle the most pressing mysteries of our time and work together to resolve them. There MUST be an angle! (Mustn't there?) (I've never actually seen much sign of one. The Caldari might be culturally a little anti-intellectual and uninterested in knowledge for knowledge's sake, but apparently genuine curiosity hasn't been selected out of the gene pool yet. And a good thing, too.)
I've barely gotten out the bit you found so cynical before I immediately question it myself-- and then explain that I can't find any evidence that it's true.
Was that really unclear?
In practice, Ms. Priano's someone I trust, as a researcher, as a leader, as a seeker after truth. She's someone who shares my interest in knowledge and insight: like me, she wants to understand, but she's way better about looking for it methodically, and guiding others in the search. I'm more of a dabbler; I get into a lot of stuff, not much of it very deeply.
She's someone I look up to.
So, yeah, your observation doesn't seem really very accurate to me. It seems like you picked a statement that you assumed was meaningful on its own ... and that was your takeaway for the whole thing.
Because I'm wordy? Because you expect me to be cynical and say awful dark negative things about people?
Maybe I am wordy, a little. Reality's complicated; it's hard to get words to track it with any accuracy at all, and I do kind of try to make them.
I do also sometimes freely say stuff people find horrifying; I'm not as blunt as Miz, but I do tend to try to speak the truth as I see it, and some bits of this world (or the way I see those bits) aren't very pleasant for a lot of people to think about. On the flip side, there might be bits that I just don't see very clearly (yet, I hope), and see as brighter than they are-- or else, just, brighter than people think they are. Maybe that's why people think I'm naive.
Either way, if you didn't understand because you saw a direct statement that reflected all the awfulness you see in me, and took that as what I was really saying as a result ... maybe that's really me not communicating things very well, but on a higher level than just a few lines of text.
I guess that's something I should work on. |
|
Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1660
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 05:50:50 -
[71] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote: fear yes, but such happens when one tends to the wordy.
Not to mention I am easily distracted.
So, the message you want to send here is "I'm going to challenge what you claim, but I won't actually pay attention to your answer. I'm just going to imagine you said what I want to reply to, and reply to it"? Can you at least throw in a 'and this is why the somethingsomething must be destroyed' so we can place you, Kim, and Ronin together in one easily-defined group, and go looking for an Amarr equivalent (I dunno, Vaari?) to dump in the 'ignore this' box with you? Quote: But is my observation not accurate?
How would you know? You've already admitted to ignoring everything you complained about as being cynical!
Something something and this is why interstellar communications must be destroyed.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 08:15:20 -
[72] - Quote
Mokoto Priano: 2,905 lifetime posts on IGS Julianus Soter: 329 lifetime posts
Thread so far: Soter: posts a thing Mokoto: "Soter just craves attention" Syagrius: Why are you like this? Aria: Mokoto is my friend. Mokoto is pure. Mokoto is life.
hmmmmm |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
816
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 08:36:46 -
[73] - Quote
The thing I wonder about with sockpuppet capsuleers is, were they born wide enough to accommodate someone's arm? Or were some stretching exercises involved?
The fight is mostly the last 0-300km in a logistics chain.
|
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2273
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 09:11:45 -
[74] - Quote
Jev North wrote:The thing I wonder about with sockpuppet capsuleers is, were they born wide enough to accommodate someone's arm? Or were some stretching exercises involved?
I thought they are all clones of different genetic encoding with the mind of the primary capsuleer uploaded into them?
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Rossanjiin Eskeitan
Guri Raiders
51
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 09:13:15 -
[75] - Quote
Why not both? |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3153
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 12:18:41 -
[76] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Mokoto Priano: 2,905 lifetime posts on IGS Julianus Soter: 329 lifetime posts
Thread so far: Soter: posts a thing Mokoto: "Soter just craves attention"
Haaa~
I like when enemies of the State fight. It is amusing and funny, revealing things about both of them!
And of course on the subject: Gallente Federation tries to push their propaganda and lies as another media outlet. That should not be tolerated. Gallente voices must be silenced. If anyone has information about physical location of their media retranslators (any citadels, control towers and other structures), please drop me a mail, I'll look if we can take it down for good.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3241
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 12:20:33 -
[77] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Something something and this is why interstellar communications must be destroyed.
I should not have laughed that hard at this.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services Singularity Syndicate
2141
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 13:22:35 -
[78] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:Something something and this is why interstellar communications must be destroyed. I should not have laughed that hard at this.
Always amuses me that Ms Kim just *has* to watch all Gallente media. Just to make sure it's all propaganda filth of course. Now we know why she just 'happened' across the 'Gallente mating practices' holoreels... |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 16:29:49 -
[79] - Quote
Jev North wrote:The thing I wonder about with sockpuppet capsuleers is, were they born wide enough to accommodate someone's arm? Or were some stretching exercises involved?
I like that you're thinking about my stretches, you saucy minx you. I can tell your arm gets plenty of exercise, too... |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9576
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 17:58:29 -
[80] - Quote
Ms. Jenneth's praise is greatly appreciated, but flatters me beyond my worth. While I'm the most visible of ARC's coordination group, there are many of us doing considerable work, and this work would be impossible without the immensely valuable contribution of Capsuleers both in our various partner organizations and flying independently.
That said, we digress, as the appearance of sockpuppet capsuleers would indicate.
Let's get back to the original topic.
GMVA has started a news portal, evidently, and Soter believes that some leaflets and posters quoting him is defamation overshadowing the collaborative work of hundreds of capsuleers, and certainly saving millions if not billions of Baseliner lives.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3499
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 18:22:33 -
[81] - Quote
I'm not sure I said anything that wasn't true, though, Ms. Priano. Being a leader usually does mean having a lot of people working with you.
I'm also not sure whether this person's really a "sock puppet." After his first post I was kind of torn between "troll" and "troglodyte." After his latest ... yeah. Troll.
Aaaand, that's about all the processor cycles he's worth, so ... guess I'll keep quiet until someone has something more interesting to say. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 19:04:32 -
[82] - Quote
Speaking of flexibility, what kind of exercises does the ARC "coordination group" practice to maintain such flexibility while gratifying each other?
Is it just obsessively cataloging news stories about yourself or is there more? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9578
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 19:36:18 -
[83] - Quote
Really? And here I thought it was standard practice for marketing teams to catalog and make note of positive press about an organization.
Winds, but this isn't even a good effort at trolling.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 19:45:27 -
[84] - Quote
See, I thought that too... but then someone told me attention seeking behavior was bad.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9578
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 19:48:59 -
[85] - Quote
Ah, but you see, dear sock puppet, you had to hunt for it, while Soter is actively advertising that someone saying mean things about him overshadows the death of millions.
Mild difference there.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1991
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 20:01:45 -
[86] - Quote
Now, now, everyone has a right to publish their own propaganda.
Meanwhile, Imperial Impressions reports filthy Gallente degenerates literally eat their own babies while fornicating with animals. Check in tonight with our analysis of the situation! Topics will include: is it really bestiality if one is genetically modified to look like an animal? And then is it really cannibalism since they are no longer human? At least we can all agree they look silly.
Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle
Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Lord Consort of House Sarum
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Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 20:29:48 -
[87] - Quote
You maintain a public profile, but it's "hunting" if I look at it.
You post on this Summit nearly 3,000 times and its probably "good community relations."
Someone else does about 100x less than you, and that's "actively advertising."
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9578
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 20:47:46 -
[88] - Quote
Let's see if I follow you on this. You're saying that we shouldn't act as if something's amiss when a Capsuleer posts an article about how mean things said about that same Capsuleer overshadows the deaths of tens of millions, including seven million of his own countrymen?
Because it stands to note, dear sock puppet, that Soter is indeed bringing to public attention an article that claims that someone saying mean things about Soter overshadows the death of seven million Gallente citizens.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:03:22 -
[89] - Quote
Indeed, a fascinating topic.
With the lives of billions on the line, what kind of person takes the time to fabricate pamphlets for a petty character assassination campaign? |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3501
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:06:28 -
[90] - Quote
There's marketing when you want to attract attention to a cause, and the good you're doing, and then there's marketing to feed (or protect) your pride and/or fill your own emotional voids.
It's maybe sometimes a little hard to distinguish between the two, and there definitely gets to be ego involved even in some places it really shouldn't be. Pride's sneaky. It comes with success, even if what you've been successful at is staying humble.
So, maybe a little pride's kind of inevitable. I'm not sure it's ever really desirable, either way, though, since it doesn't take a lot to turn it into something awful.
Maybe sometimes I'm harder on people than I maybe need to be. Maybe it'd be better to just withhold judgment entirely than to beat up on someone for who they've ended up being, even if it's surprising and sad. It seems like I might have hurt Mr. Syagrius a little that way. There's a part of me that feels unhappy about that; I've never really set out to be cruel. There's another part, though, that says, "Good. He was a fool. Let him suffer for it."
However I look at it, that's pride. Maybe it's making a fool out of me, and I'll be the one suffering.
Probably Ms. Priano has stuff like that going on too. Probably most people do.
And then there's going the other way, and needing praise all the time to validate who you are. (Not that the two are mutually exclusive.) It's not like lacking self-confidence or needing encouragement is necessarily a big problem, but needing to fill a hole like that is maybe kind of a major problem in a leader. It seems like that's maybe more what's going on with Mr. Soter-- though maybe I shouldn't speculate so far. Motives get tangled up, pride's sneaky, and it's hard to tell, but, this doesn't really seem very ambiguous to me.
For me, I guess, the border is often a willingness to admit limitation or fault. Being able to accept that we're wrong, or that there are things much more important than ourselves (even if we might have some trouble focusing on them), seem like kind of strong clues to a reasonably well-adjusted ego. (My predecessor weaponized this kind of honesty, though, so it's not an absolute thing.)
Eh ... sorry. Kind of going on a little, and rambling a lot. It seems like there should be a principled way to tell the difference between necessary and important self-promotion and the gratuitous and damaging kind.
Maybe it kind of boils down to motive? Only, a large and fragile ego might still accomplish great things....
Sometimes.
Hm. |
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9579
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:06:28 -
[91] - Quote
Ah, so you're Soter's sock puppet.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3501
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:10:59 -
[92] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Ah, so you're Soter's sock puppet.
Yeah, I stand corrected. He's got too much specific agenda to be just a troll. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9579
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:17:50 -
[93] - Quote
Precisely, Ms. Jenneth.
I think the only people who really care about the leafleting are Soter and those in his circle.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:34:31 -
[94] - Quote
Clearly I'm striking a nerve when your only response is to call me a sock puppet.
I'm merely an interested media observer who's fascinated by the fact that a certain someone is so obsessed with overplaying the significance of one obviously ill chosen word in the headline, and ignoring the content of the article itself. I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that a certain organization is implicated in the article as the source of the leaflets.
If you don't think people should care about the leaflets why did you print them? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9580
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:40:34 -
[95] - Quote
Because, dear sock puppet, I like transparency. Whether you're a sock puppet for Soter or Syagrius, to use a blank shill to carry on your tirade is an attempt to sidestep that many observers here are now discounting those parties' arguments. It's disingenuous.
As for the printing, I fear you are mistaken.
ARC had rather more important matters to deal with.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1590
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:46:05 -
[96] - Quote
Still a whole lot of protest and objection over something almost entirely inconsequential. When people get this riled over a single article or a fresh face - sockpuppet or not - there are definitely buttons getting pushed with disproportionate response.
It's of course a far cry from evidence of anything, but it's... intriguing. Nerves don't get that raw all by themselves, and egos that get so bruised tend to have been dis-proportionally large targets to begin with.
I genuinely didn't think anything of the article or the contents of this new rag, but when they stir up this much emotion in a group, something's up. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:51:02 -
[97] - Quote
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean, as both of those Capsuleers have been more than willing to share their opinions in this topic so far. Clearly they are both able to express themselves, and have done so.
I speak only for myself, unlike you: Ms "many observers."
As for the leaflets, it is easy to mistake such things. Perhaps you would care to explain the statements from the ILF indicating your organization's involvement?
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9580
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 21:51:16 -
[98] - Quote
No, Ms. Del'thul, just bored.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1592
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:06:47 -
[99] - Quote
Possible. It's just rare for people to get this emotional out of boredom. Like I said, it is evidence of exactly nothing. It's just intriguing. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9580
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:09:24 -
[100] - Quote
With apologies, Ms. Del'thul, but you may be reading too much emotion into what I'm writing. Accountants have been droning at me for hours, so my prose may have become fraught.
That, and this new sock puppet is serving up so many easy pitches that I can't help but swing.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:11:40 -
[101] - Quote
I don't really know much about this "Intaki Liberation Front" group. Could someone fill me in?
Would they have any reason to make a false accusation? |
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
377
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:14:06 -
[102] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Perhaps you would care to explain the statements from the ILF indicating your organization's involvement?
I had been content to sit this particular discussion out, but it seems that's no longer possible.
It is true that after being approached my Mr Raimo, we did speak on a number of occasions regarding the leaflets.
I also brought his attention to a poster repeating what were claimed as quoted remarks by Gen. Soter, which had been put up in the main inquest hall, on the second day.
Even with Mr Raimo going to lengths to catch the culprit, the distribution continued regardless, and so must have been conducted discreetly.
The delegation from ARC were not a discreet group at the Inquest, conspicuous in their uniforms, bearing their IDs consistently throughout, and so I am more than happy to go on record to say I do not believe it possible for them to have successfully scattered those leaflets under Mr Raimo's very nose. Consistently. For three days.
Any claims that I suggested they may have been responsible are completely untrue.
Bataav
Mahesha | Intaki Liberation Front & Intaki Prosperity Initiative
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9580
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:17:02 -
[103] - Quote
Bataav was actually accredited as part of the ARC delegation, interestingly. I can only assume he told Tarek Raimo that to get Tarek to stop following him around. It was sort of uncanny how Raimo was hovering around and somehow always conveniently ten to fifteen meters from Bataav.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3250
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:17:41 -
[104] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:I don't really know much about this "Intaki Liberation Front" group. Could someone fill me in?
Some of their members do appear to have longstanding personal issues with some of the principles.
Also, I've heard they're actually a splinter group of the Liberation Front of Intaki, which itself split off from the People's Front of Intaki. The PFI, of course, was originally formed by dissidents who found the Intaki People's Front too stifling.
Bunch of bloody splitters, the lot of them. Or so I've heard.
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9580
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:18:21 -
[105] - Quote
Oh! And I missed a statement by the honored mahesha himself.
Apologies, Bataav!
Well, it may be that Tarek Raimo was misrepresenting things.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:25:20 -
[106] - Quote
Thank you for clarifying, sir.
Of course, this begs the question of what motivated the campaign, and who would have had the resources to carry out such activities so very discreetly. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3250
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:34:15 -
[107] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Thank you for clarifying, sir.
Of course, this begs the question of what motivated the campaign, and who would have had the resources to carry out such activities so very discreetly.
There is, of course, always the conspiracy-theory angle: Raimo appears to be the only person who was concerned with raising awareness of the flyers. Those he appears to have strongly implied (at least) were clearly not directly involved. This didn't stop him from writing up an articleGÇöincluding hyperbolic headlineGÇöto raise awareness of the flyers and his preferred narrative of their source beyond the confines of the Inquest center and attendees. Raimo is, by his own statements, some sort of COINTEL professional.
Who's to say he isn't behind the flyers? After all, it would hardly be the first time someone's run a false-flag operation to impugn the reputation of others in the middle of multinational gathering. They're rather perfect locations for it: the attendees already don't trust one another. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:36:24 -
[108] - Quote
Interesting theory! You'd think if that were they case they would have been more elegant with the phrasing of the headline... but who knows? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3252
|
Posted - 2017.04.25 22:52:06 -
[109] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Interesting theory! You'd think if that were they case they would have been more elegant with the phrasing of the headline... but who knows?
Oh, sure, but considering that theory took me less time to think of than to write, is completely baseless, and even I don't believe it, the fact that it's got more supporting evidence than Raimo's theory, well.... |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1690
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 00:14:14 -
[110] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Mokoto Priano: 2,905 lifetime posts on IGS Julianus Soter: 329 lifetime posts
Thread so far: Soter: posts a thing Mokoto: "Soter just craves attention" Syagrius: Why are you like this? Aria: Mokoto is my friend. Mokoto is pure. Mokoto is life.
hmmmmm Well, now he put a fine point on it didnGÇÖt he. So much said with so few words. ItGÇÖs almost as if I donGÇÖt really need to read further to GÇÿknowGÇÖ what the usual suspects are going to say.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1690
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 00:15:05 -
[111] - Quote
Oh dear. Well, I did, they did. Moving along.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3253
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 00:19:50 -
[112] - Quote
I'm sorry, but there were words, and you clearly said you don't read when there are words. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9583
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 00:28:09 -
[113] - Quote
Oh, come now, Arrendis. Syagrius took almost a minute to have pretended to have read it. Give the man points for effort, eh?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3501
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 00:28:46 -
[114] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Oh dear. Well, I did, they did. Moving along.
Your meaning here isn't quite clear. I'm hoping you meant something ... better.
Maybe a few more words? |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3501
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 00:29:58 -
[115] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Oh, come now, Arrendis. Syagrius took almost a minute to have pretended to have read it. Give the man points for effort, eh?
He did?
... he DID.
Gods ... just when I start to think maybe I've been too hard on you, Mr. Syagrius. It must be nice, being able to misunderstand fully without troubling to read what's being said.
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 00:49:11 -
[116] - Quote
Maybe you really are just that predictable. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3255
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 01:24:08 -
[117] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Maybe you really are just that predictable.
Well, you know, when he tells us 'I don't actually read the stuff I reply to', and then appears to have not actually taken the time to read what he's replying to...
It's just not that hard a leap to make. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 01:49:07 -
[118] - Quote
What entertains me is that his initial misreading was "Angel," which apparently Ms. Jenneth does in fact believe Mokoto Priano to be. According to the ancient "pure of heart" holy Amarr meaning, of course... not the modern pirate connotation, I shouldn't think.
Perhaps his instincts for avoiding overwrought prose served him well after all? |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
831
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 01:50:50 -
[119] - Quote
So, a sneaky, resourceful and long-armed, blatantly amoral party with some kind of axe to grind with Soter, according to the Mahesha. Hmmm.
The fight is mostly the last 0-300km in a logistics chain.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3255
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 02:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:What entertains me is that his initial misreading was "Angel," which apparently Ms. Jenneth does in fact believe Mokoto Priano to be. According to the ancient "pure of heart" holy Amarr meaning, of course... not the modern pirate connotation, I shouldn't think.
Perhaps his instincts for avoiding overwrought prose served him well after all?
Well, except that the only one who's made that claim... is you.
Aria described Makoto as someone who seeks truth, someone she trusts and looks up to. That doesn't mean she thinks Makoto is 'pure of heart'.
So, perhaps you should avoid emulating James by arguing against things nobody but you said in the first place? |
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 02:11:54 -
[121] - Quote
Perhaps you're right and I've misunderstood a crucial distinction. Could you explain the important difference you perceive between a person Aria has described as you say, and a person she may think is "pure of heart?"
Or does a trustworthy seeker of truth to be admired not fit within numerous Amarrian conceptions of Angelic beings that I was alluding to? It isn't like they teach these things at the Royal Amarr Institute, after all, so how would I know?
Or, perhaps you should avoid making distinctions without a purpose? |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3511
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 02:35:24 -
[122] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:What entertains me is that his initial misreading was "Angel," which apparently Ms. Jenneth does in fact believe Mokoto Priano to be. According to the ancient "pure of heart" holy Amarr meaning, of course... not the modern pirate connotation, I shouldn't think.
Nope.
Ms. Priano is human. Limited. Flawed. Like anyone. No one has to be a sefrim or other celestial being for me to look up to them. I look up to Pieter Tuulinen and Desiderya, too, and they're actually pretty scary people.
I don't ... actually think so much of myself. I tend to admire people who have qualities I value, but lack in some way. I'm not much of a leader, but I believe in structure and planning, so I tend to admire capable leaders who plan, organize, and use their resources effectively. I prize knowledge, but I'm not much of a disciplined scholar, so I admire scholars who have more focus than I do.
Most particularly, I don't trust myself very far. Aside from being, experientially, about two years old, I'm not a very good person. I'm maybe a little soft-hearted, but that's not really the same thing. I admire decency and good judgment. Those things impress me most of all.
For me, Des and Pieter kind of embody the first quality. Ms. Priano kind of embodies the second (and a good dose of the first). But it's the person who embodies the third to me to whom I've sworn my service.
I'll let you figure out who that might be for yourself. It's not hard, if you don't hate reading. ... or, maybe, since I'm so predictable, you can guess?
They're none of them celestials. They're just people, who are better at a range of stuff than I am. I admire them for that.
That's all. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3259
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 02:42:29 -
[123] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Perhaps you're right and I've misunderstood a crucial distinction. Could you explain the important difference you perceive between a person Aria has described as you say, and a person she may think is "pure of heart?"
The important distinction between a person whose dedication to seeking and understanding the truth is to be admired, and someone who is 'pure of heart' is that one thing speaks to a specific aspect of a person, making no claims about the totality of their worthiness or the totality of their intents and motivations. Generally speaking, people described as 'pure of heart' tend to be relatively humble, unassuming individuals. For all her laudable traitsGÇöand she does have themGÇöMakoto Priano is not pure of heart. She is not humble and unassuming. She is, in fact, a proud individual.
Some will say her pride is justified, some will say it's not. But anyone who tells you Makoto Priano is not a proud woman who digs in her heels and get her back up when challengedGÇöie: decidedly not 'unassuming'. She may at times be self-effacing and modest... but there is a difference between modesty and humility. If you need that difference explained, then I suggest consulting the kind of dictionary that provides enough information as to convey context and nuance.
Quote: Or does a trustworthy seeker of truth to be admired not fit within numerous Amarrian conceptions of Angelic beings that I was alluding to? It isn't like they teach these things at the Royal Amarr Institute, after all, so how would I know?
Speaking as someone who has never studied the Amarr faith, I would have to say that as those conceptions have been presented to me, 'angelic beings' such as Sefrim were messengers, or bearers of divine truth and revelation to the faithful, not seekers of it. Because, you know, the being of God's Will made manifest, handing Truth to man... doesn't really need to look for it. They've already got it. And they're dispensing it. So... kind of exactly the opposite. But again, I don't study the Amarr faith, so I'll defer that distinction to someone like Alizabeth, if she's reading the thread.
Quote:Or, perhaps you should avoid making distinctions without a purpose?
I do avoid it. Maybe you should start doing so as well. Also, you might want to consider avoiding getting into arguments over semantics with a pedant who will literally argue with you for multiple weeks over the specific contextual definition of a single word, and enjoy every minute of it.
And if you think for even a moment that I'm exaggerating or being hyperbolic with that statement, feel free to ask Makoto. She's been on the receiving end of it. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3511
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:06:04 -
[124] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Speaking as someone who has never studied the Amarr faith, I would have to say that as those conceptions have been presented to me, 'angelic beings' such as Sefrim were messengers, or bearers of divine truth and revelation to the faithful, not seekers of it. Because, you know, the being of God's Will made manifest, handing Truth to man... doesn't really need to look for it. They've already got it. And they're dispensing it. So... kind of exactly the opposite. But again, I don't study the Amarr faith, so I'll defer that distinction to someone like Alizabeth, if she's reading the thread.
I do (even if I don't actually follow it), and as far as I can gather, yeah, that's about right.
There are some Achur stories in which someone who attained a special degree of insight ascended to a sort of higher state of being and became celestial entities themselves, but, again, that usually means no longer being one who seeks insight and more one who has/dispenses/embodies it.
Quote:Also, you might want to consider avoiding getting into arguments over semantics with a pedant who will literally argue with you for multiple weeks over the specific contextual definition of a single word, and enjoy every minute of it.
And if you think for even a moment that I'm exaggerating or being hyperbolic with that statement, feel free to ask Makoto. She's been on the receiving end of it.
No one seems to listen to me when I give this warning, but it's not a good idea to idly get in an argument with Arrendis because she will actually, purely for the fun of it, chase you up and down the length of the thread beating you with your own spinal column if you let her get a hold of it.
She does maybe politely back off if you ask her nicely, but that might only have happened in my case because she (apparently) likes me. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:19:17 -
[125] - Quote
I'm impressed that you've faulted me for participation in an argument over semantics that you started!
Suffice to say, your interpretation of my statement depends much on limiting the meaning of my words to what you choose for them. For instance, I allude to "numerous" concepts of Angelic beings... and you limit your analysis to one that fits your position.
We could no doubt go on and on with new interpretations contrary to my intent produced at every turn.
However, I do very much appreciate your digression on the character and motivations of Ms. Priano, as it was the irony of her criticism of Mr. Soter's pridefulness that brought me into this discussion to begin with.
Likewise, Ms. Jenneth, I appreciate contextualizing of your previous praise as well.
Perhaps now the discussion can return to the content of the article in question? Maybe we could get really wild and actually discuss that Caldari-Gallente reunification one instead of sniping personal attacks? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9595
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:23:40 -
[126] - Quote
So, without getting into it at great length (honestly, I'm blushing here), I will say these things:
My pride is without a doubt my greatest vice, followed closely to my willingness to engage with partisans in a thoroughly outspoken way.
I will also quite agree that Arrendis is both infuriating to debate with, but also clever, persistent, and indeed quite able to present her points well. I'm consistently both vexed by and impressed with her ability to present a calm, cool, collected rejoinder to any attempt to debate with her, which I've honestly just stopped trying to do because of her talent.
Anyway.
Uh.
Let's move on.
(edit; oh, I see he's responded.)
So, I'd contend the issue is this. We have, on one hand, my pride and combativeness. We have, on the other hand, Soter's arrogance and self-aggrandizement.
One of these assumes leaflets overshadow the success of the Inquest and millions of lives saved.
The other...?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:38:50 -
[127] - Quote
What a strange concept for "moving on" you have, that it takes you back to the original dispute. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9596
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:39:43 -
[128] - Quote
Well, you see, this forum evidently has some rule about topics staying on topic.
It's silly, and naturally conversations evolve over time, but it's useful to occasionally loop back to the original subject.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3259
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:42:02 -
[129] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:I'm impressed that you've faulted me for participation in an argument over semantics that you started!
Oh, no, I don't fault you for participating. I'm advising you against persisting, since you're actually pretty bad at this.
Quote: Suffice to say, your interpretation of my statement depends much on limiting the meaning of my words to what you choose for them. For instance, I allude to "numerous" concepts of Angelic beings... and you limit your analysis to one that fits your position.
See, this is what I mean by 'bad at this'. You allude to 'numerous' concepts, but don't actually cite or enumerate what those concepts are. Then, when I admit that I haven't studied the subject, and can only judge based on the information I have, you attempt to claim that actually telling you what that information is is somehow dishonest or disingenuous.
So: what are the other numerous concepts. Please provide citations and sourcing.
Quote: We could no doubt go on and on with new interpretations contrary to my intent produced at every turn.
Please, do so. However, as you do, also keep in mind that as of my last neural scan, I'm not a telepath. So far as I know, neither are you, nor is anyone else here. In communication between non-telepaths, the person making the statementGÇöthe speaker, writer, etcGÇöis the one who knows what the concept or interpretation they are attempting to convey is. The person receiving the communicationGÇöthe listener, the readerGÇöhas no way to know what the concept is, except for the words chosen by person communicating.
As a result, the burden is on the writer to be clear. If the writer is no clear, the reader cannot provide additional clarity. So, if you want to complain about 'interpretations contrary to [your] intent', I'm more than happy to listen to your objections, but I remind you that had you been clearer, the misinterpretation wouldn't have been possible.
Unless, of course, you're just trying to make it seem like you didn't just change your point in later posts, like how you initially described Aria's position as claiming Makoto was pure, not pure of heart, which are, after all, rather different descriptors.
Quote: However, I do very much appreciate your digression on the character and motivations of Ms. Priano, as it was the irony of her criticism of Mr. Soter's pridefulness that brought me into this discussion to begin with.
Makoto's never claimed not to be downright arrogant, on occassion. Someone willing to be honest about their own flaws isn't ironic in pointing out someone else falling into the same trap while loudly yelling 'NO I'M NOT!' That's not irony, and more than it's ironic for me to point out that you're getting into a pointless semantic argument. It's kinda sorta something I know a lot about. Being a little full of oneself is something Makoto knows something about, and is well-positioned to recognize. Consider it... expert testimony.
Also, for the record, before you get any false impressions here: yes, I'm also rather arrogant. Of the three of us, I'd say I'm probably significantly more arrogant than either of the others, though that may simply be my arrogance not wanting to come in second to anyone else's.
Quote: Perhaps now the discussion can return to the content of the article in question? Maybe we could get really wild and actually discuss that Caldari-Gallente reunification one instead of sniping personal attacks?
Eh, the content of the articles is mostly utter claptrap, especially the 'reunification' piece that completely overlooks the fact that the Caldari people don't want 'reunification' in its eagerness to act like saying 'we should forgive the Caldari and give them another chance' is somehow doing the State a favor.
The articles are heavily biased agitprop, nothing more. But they don't pretend to be anything else. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9596
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:47:39 -
[130] - Quote
Well, I like to think I'm not arrogant, and I think I usually avoid it, but, well.
Yeah.
As said above, my greatest vice.
Anyway. Off to a meeting with the ARCHIVES staff.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:50:44 -
[131] - Quote
Oh, I'm perfectly fine not persisting. You've apparently mistaken being "good at this" for being able to bore your opponents into submission.
Consider me sufficiently bored for you to declare victory! |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3512
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:54:38 -
[132] - Quote
... also, while I don't really count myself as Caldari anymore, I don't think I'm really wrong in thinking that the typical Caldari reaction to the idea of reunification can be summarized as a long horrified and/or enraged scream.
Or maybe just a word: "NO."
The Federation might have gotten a little better about not trampling on other member cultures. History's not so easily set aside, though, and the Caldari sense of what history is and how it affects them is maybe a little different from the Galletean point of view. They've kind of defined themselves, consciously or not, in opposition to what the Federation stands for, and the Gallente as a culture. It pervades everything from the aesthetics of their ships (none, so many of them would argue) to even how many of them came into this world. The tube child program probably wouldn't have happened if the Caldari didn't feel the need to expand their population, and fast, to meet what they saw as a deadly threat.
Could the two probably do a lot together? Definitely. For the Caldari, though, reunification is synonymous with "surrender." At this point, probably a large percentage would seriously rather die. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3259
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 03:59:01 -
[133] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Oh, I'm perfectly fine not persisting. You've apparently mistaken being "good at this" for being able to bore your opponents into submission.
Consider me sufficiently bored for you to declare victory!
See what I mean about being bad at this? Now you've let me know that this bothers you, and you give up easily. See, I'm not just an arrogant, pedantic jerk. I'm an arrogant, pedantic Goon. And you've just given me a line on an entertaining victim to keep poking at. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 04:26:56 -
[134] - Quote
Ah yes, and if I were a teen girl my response might be: "Well, you've kinda got me in a box here."
I've seen that holo, quite entertaining... for gallente degeneracy of course.
As I said, I didn't come here for you. I'm perfectly content for you to poke at me or not. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9598
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 04:28:39 -
[135] - Quote
Alright-- this meeting's covered the obvious points, so here I am, hand terminal below the table, asking:
So, what did you come here for, totally-not-a-Syagrius-sock-puppet?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3262
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 04:30:18 -
[136] - Quote
See, now that's a better answer. Especially since it references degeneracy. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 04:57:45 -
[137] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Alright-- this meeting's covered the obvious points, so here I am, hand terminal below the table, asking:
So, what did you come here for, totally-not-a-Syagrius-sock-puppet?
Now who's skimming their reading?
Nai Arto wrote: However, I do very much appreciate your digression on the character and motivations of Ms. Priano, as it was the irony of her criticism of Mr. Soter's pridefulness that brought me into this discussion to begin with.
As I said before, I'm a simple media observer. You've had more press in recent years than any individual Capsuleer I can think of since the days of Verone. That you would criticize someone for "seeking attention" is a tad ridiculous.
Now, to be clear... that doesn't mean you're wrong that this "Federation Frontier" publication is seeking attention. It seems to me that the duty of any CEO is to be conscious of publicity. You've made that a virtue for yourself and your organization, which has no doubt benefited greatly from the high profile.
It seems strange that you refuse to recognize it as a virtue in others. As Ms. Del'Thuul remarked earlier, it seems something is going on here ego wise. Who can say for sure, but if there's no fire why are you putting off so much smoke? |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
435
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 05:04:36 -
[138] - Quote
A new update today on the Federal Frontier, an after action report: "Brutix Squadron Fights REVOLUTION". I hope you enjoy. As you may note, it's more news related to the activities of the Gallente Militia.
Regards,
Soter
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
64
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 05:17:56 -
[139] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Bataav was actually accredited as part of the ARC delegation, interestingly. I can only assume he told Tarek Raimo that to get Tarek to stop following him around. It was sort of uncanny how Raimo was hovering around and somehow always conveniently ten to fifteen meters from Bataav.
I appreciate your inquisitive mind but if one chases mysteries in the depths of space for too long, it is probably inevitable that eventually a tendency sets in where one sees patterns even when there are none.
I would like to point out that we encountered generally at your own information centre and the inquest hall. Incidentally both locations attracted many capsuleers who were actively interested in the proceedings. It so happens that both Bataav and myself were among them. It would appear only natural that you would often see us at the same time considering those circumstances.
As for the implications I quoted, I did maybe misunderstand, and it might have been a ruse to get me diverted. Whatever it may have been i didn't give it credence anyway as I said. What was said was pure conjecture between the both of us. |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
66
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 05:53:53 -
[140] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:
One of these assumes leaflets overshadow the success of the Inquest and millions of lives saved.
The other...?
You regrettably misinterpret the context Priano-haani. The report reflected the disappointment of the dedicated Villore Accords capsuleers that someone would abuse this important event for baseless and petty propaganda against our commanding officer. A group so fanatical that they would even show such disregard for the crisis at hand just to spread their message of hate represents a threat to us all.
The information uncovered during the inquest - not least by your organisation - shows clearly how even a small group of cunning deviants with enough resources can instigate terrible disasters. We mustn't allow the next Vulture or Rook the time to set their plans in motion.
Also, to re-interate: The Federal Frontier is a publication written by, and directed at, capsuleers of the volunteer militias. They both want to and deserve to be informed of the actions we take to further our cause. The Federal Frontier should be interpreted as such. Our decision to make it public was made in service of transparency, not for the purpose of creating an instrument for propaganda, let alone a platform to glorify our alliance commanders.
|
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James Syagrius
Reclamation
1692
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 15:46:55 -
[141] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Let's move on. Careful, I suggested that and look what happened.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1692
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 15:59:26 -
[142] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Alright-- this meeting's covered the obvious points, so here I am, hand terminal below the table, asking: So, what did you come here for, totally-not-a-Syagrius-sock-puppet? Well, I will admit I am not sure what a GÇÿsock-puppetGÇÖ is exactly.
I suppose it may be related to the earlier mention of degeneracy, though admittedly my familiarity with Caldari fetishes is limited.
While I will admit Mr. Arto is fast becoming one of my favorite posters, there are relationship ends.
No offence intended of course.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3267
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 16:00:18 -
[143] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Careful, I suggested that and look what happened.
That suggests you know what happened. We all know that's impossible, though, because it would've required reading, which you don't do. |
Oland Jan
Antumbra
16
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 16:17:09 -
[144] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Careful, I suggested that and look what happened.
That suggests you know what happened. We all know that's impossible, though, because it would've required reading, which you don't do. Careful Jimmy, she has responded to nearly every post you have made. She might be after your sock-puppet?
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 16:40:01 -
[145] - Quote
I have a name, you know.
I had no idea that the IGS was so obsessed with ventriloquism. My only guess is that it is another symptom of tragic space dementia, making so many all paranoid and crotchety. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3517
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 16:42:30 -
[146] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Well, I will admit I am not sure what a GÇÿsock-puppetGÇÖ is exactly.
A "sock-puppet" is a persona, real or fabricated, that is being somehow puppeteered by another, whether directly or by more indirect means (such as obligation or profound loyalty). Mika Firestorm and Luna Hanaya are often accused of being "sock-puppets" to Diana Kim because despite their different backgrounds they tend to pop up in arguments to lend her support and rhetorical cover. If you talk to them separately, they're rather different people. Neither of the other two shares Ms. Kim's frailty, but both will leap to her defense when she's in a rage, so the distinction doesn't really make much difference. The tendency to act as a single unit, closing ranks against, basically, anybody gives them a reputation as, functionally, a single person with three heads.
Aside from agreeing with you about even stuff he has no clear reason to, Mr. Arto also shares some of your language and rhetorical habits. He's even lazy in the same ways. That might just be personal affinity of some kind, but it makes the claim that he's a "sock-puppet" at least plausible. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 16:54:40 -
[147] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Mr. Arto also shares some of your language and rhetorical habits. He's even lazy in the same ways.
See what I mean about paranoid and crotchety? Also, when did I stop being Soter?
Simple. Media. Observer. It's very different from humble trader.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3518
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:07:26 -
[148] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:See what I mean about paranoid and crotchety? Also, when did I stop being Soter?
Simple. Media. Observer. It's very different from humble trader.
I thought you might be with Mr. Soter for a bit, but your rhetorical and language habits are more like Mr. Syagrius. And, actually, it's the repeated self-description as a "simple media observer" that provides one of the links to him.
Mr. Syagrius virtually always describes himself as a "humble trader," when asked, and has done for as long as I've known him, even when threatening Dire Consequences. It's kind of a tag line, even.
On its face, "simple media observer" follows a different pattern, if only slightly-- minimizing adjective, clarifying adjective, noun, instead of minimizing adjective, noun. Only, "observer" by itself says nothing much without the "media," so the two really ought to be taken as a structural unit. Really, we still have exactly the same pattern-- minimizing adjective, noun-- which you, too, use semi-continuously as a kind of shield.
Just like he does.
Even the obviousness of the mask is the same, though you might be winking less about it. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9608
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:15:21 -
[149] - Quote
And the occasional ellipses and other habits of speech, in addition to the rapidity and posting hours.
But anyway.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
70
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:17:11 -
[150] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:
Also, when did I stop being Soter?
You were accused of that? That's amusing.
One thing I am sure of: Julianus Soter is not the sort of person who would need others to stoke controversy on his behalf. |
|
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1089
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:21:16 -
[151] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Nai Arto wrote:See what I mean about paranoid and crotchety? Also, when did I stop being Soter?
Simple. Media. Observer. It's very different from humble trader. I thought you might be with Mr. Soter for a bit, but your rhetorical and language habits are more like Mr. Syagrius. And, actually, it's the repeated self-description as a "simple media observer" that provides one of the links to him. Mr. Syagrius virtually always describes himself as a "humble trader," when asked, and has done for as long as I've known him, even when threatening Dire Consequences. It's kind of a tag line, even. On its face, "simple media observer" follows a different pattern, if only slightly-- minimizing adjective, clarifying adjective, noun, instead of minimizing adjective, noun. Only, "observer" by itself says nothing much without the "media," so the two really ought to be taken as a structural unit. Really, we still have exactly the same pattern-- minimizing adjective, noun-- which you, too, use semi-continuously as a kind of shield. Just like he does. Even the obviousness of the mask is the same, though you might be winking less about it.
Miss Jenneth,
I respect your analysis always.
But this Simple Blonde thinks you are just reading too much into things!
Mr. Sygagrius may be many things besides being a humble trader. A crochety True Amarr, sadly, is not likely to be one of them.
Although I do wonder where Mr. Arto has been the last six years? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3270
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:28:55 -
[152] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:I had no idea that the IGS was so obsessed with ventriloquism. My only guess is that it is another symptom of tragic space dementia, making so many all paranoid and crotchety.
Tsk. Paranoia isn't space dementia. It's simply a survival trait. Everyone around you is looking to kill you, some of them just haven't been offered enough money yet. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3270
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:31:51 -
[153] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Although I do wonder where Mr. Arto has been the last six years?
Studying the numerous concepts of "Angelic beings" in traditional Amarr beliefs that he refuses to ennumerate. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3522
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:32:42 -
[154] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Nai Arto wrote:See what I mean about paranoid and crotchety? Also, when did I stop being Soter?
Simple. Media. Observer. It's very different from humble trader. I thought you might be with Mr. Soter for a bit, but your rhetorical and language habits are more like Mr. Syagrius. And, actually, it's the repeated self-description as a "simple media observer" that provides one of the links to him. Mr. Syagrius virtually always describes himself as a "humble trader," when asked, and has done for as long as I've known him, even when threatening Dire Consequences. It's kind of a tag line, even. On its face, "simple media observer" follows a different pattern, if only slightly-- minimizing adjective, clarifying adjective, noun, instead of minimizing adjective, noun. Only, "observer" by itself says nothing much without the "media," so the two really ought to be taken as a structural unit. Really, we still have exactly the same pattern-- minimizing adjective, noun-- which you, too, use semi-continuously as a kind of shield. Just like he does. Even the obviousness of the mask is the same, though you might be winking less about it. Miss Jenneth, I respect your analysis always. But this Simple Blonde thinks you are just reading too much into things! Mr. Sygagrius may be many things besides being a humble trader. A crochety True Amarr, sadly, is not likely to be one of them. Although I do wonder where Mr. Arto has been the last six years?
That's one of the other things that has me suspicious, Praefecta. He's been a member of the Royal Amarr Institute for years, and yet the first we hear of him is him stepping in to object to Ms. Priano objecting to Mr. Soter's egotism. That is, he's an Amarr siding with a Gallentean against a Caldari on a subject (arguable hypocrisy) that's about as common on this forum as, um.
As words are, actually.
He chooses this particular moment, this particular argument, to make himself heard, pro-Gallente, arguably pro-Amarr if only by dint of being one and employed by an Amarrian corporation, anti-Caldari. There's someone we know whose politics that tracks really well.
He's just a humble trader, though.... |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1598
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:42:43 -
[155] - Quote
Almost eight full pages later and there's still this much time and effort spent on this. Feathers have well and truly been ruffled here. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:48:49 -
[156] - Quote
Media observer.
Listen, I know that it is strange and frightening when someone new interrupts the echo chamber around here, but you are quite far off the mark.
I do wonder why it is so strange to you that a high profile media darling would attract criticism in a media related topic like this one. Galactic politics is of little interest to me. Ethics in media analysis is.
It is pure fantasy to impart a political agenda (whether pro-Gallente, or anti-Caldari) simply because I criticize the conduct of individual Capsuleers. Anyway, personal agenda would make more sense. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3523
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:51:09 -
[157] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Almost eight full pages later and there's still this much time and effort spent on this. Feathers have well and truly been ruffled here.
Like Arrendis, I don't really need my feathers ruffled to have a lot to say, Miz. My reasons are maybe a little different from hers, but, it's definitely fun for me, too. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1599
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:03:23 -
[158] - Quote
It's not just that a lot is being said, but the things being said and what/who it's being said to and about. Of course I could be wrong but there's just so much smoke for there not to be a fire somewhere. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3524
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:07:24 -
[159] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Media observer.
Listen, I know that it is strange and frightening when someone new interrupts the echo chamber around here, but you are quite far off the mark.
I do wonder why it is so strange to you that a high profile media darling would attract criticism in a media related topic like this one. Galactic politics is of little interest to me. Ethics in media analysis is.
It is pure fantasy to impart a political agenda (whether pro-Gallente, or anti-Caldari) simply because I criticize the conduct of individual Capsuleers. Anyway, personal agenda would make more sense.
Imputation of emotional motives for reasoning. Contemptuous dismissal of that reasoning on a basis that would be mostly obvious to the speaker, if true, but is treated as though it should be obvious to everyone.
You're not helping your case very much, pilot. Though admittedly there are other people who use similar tactics.
A savvy media observer such as yourself would surely be aware: this whole topic, everything to do with The Federal Frontier, is politically fraught. It's a highly partisan piece of work, being presented in a public setting. The stated intent might be "transparency," but the net effect is hard to distinguish from propaganda. You cannot credibly step in on one side of it and claim neutrality unless your neutrality's already really well established. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3524
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:26:02 -
[160] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's not just that a lot is being said, but the things being said and what/who it's being said to and about. Of course I could be wrong but there's just so much smoke for there not to be a fire somewhere.
People keep using this "smoke and fire" analogy. Usually I think it's used when you're trying to track down corrupt officials or something.
Here ... uh. What are you trying to track down, exactly, Miz? That Makoto Priano has an ego? ... I think she admitted as much a page or two back.
That I have an ego? ... Sure. Probably. Yeah.
Both of us seem to kind of wrestle with our pride. A little bit of my pride, and I'd guess likely hers, comes from the fact that I do actually wrestle with it. Ego often seems to be nearly as standard equipment for a capsuleer as ships are. So is arguable hypocrisy-- mass killers expressing outrage over a few thousand dead crew, for example.
What do you think you'll find here at the source of all this smoke? Hurt feelings? Political tension? A personal grudge?
Does anybody doubt that any or all of those might be a little bit in play?
People are people. Motives are typically at least a little mixed. Ms. Priano's probably not sorry to have seen a clear shot at maybe wounding Soter in however small a way. Neither actually was I; in the minimal contact I've had with him, he's been pretty uniformly awful to me.
Your fire might basically boil down to a couple of apes taking an opportunity to try to douse a third they don't especially like with accelerant and set him alight, metaphorically speaking.
That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't deserve it. It doesn't mean that at all. |
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:41:04 -
[161] - Quote
Fascinating. Perhaps you should have started there instead of the overwrought and oh so noble concern trolling on behalf of koyonoke plague victims.
The misuse of "Overshadows" in headline was obviously an amateur mistake, and deserved to be criticized as such. Instead you let your now admitted personal animus run amok. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1700
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:45:12 -
[162] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:He's just a humble trader, though.... Well I am glad we can all agree on that at least.
As to Mr. Artos GÇÿloyaltiesGÇÖ, I cannot say. I wonGÇÖt deny any association with him as there is no profit in it and it would be wasted effort considering the obvious proclivities of your personality.
I am sure you believed with equal vigor he was someone else, before you categorically believed he was me.
No offence Mr. ArtosGǪ I can understand how being me would be appealing to most. I do like how you counter succinctly and with wit others wordy expositions on self-correctness.
Crotchety though he be, I like him better than most already.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9611
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:49:33 -
[163] - Quote
A simple media observer would know that context is key.
The context, in this case, is a new and strikingly partisan entrant into an existing fray with zero provable combat record, baseliner or capsuleer, and no history of involvement in political discussion, whose verbal ticks and other patterns correspond to a party who's known to use proxies heavily.
We use context and reputation to assess the validity of a person's claims, and the bias they take into a discussion.
The complete lack of context and reputation is actually highly unusual, especially among people so partisan, unless they are proxies or somehow otherwise involved with established parties.
Six years with no apparent reputation is, well, beyond merely unusual. It's frankly aberrant.
That said, admittedly, talk of sock puppets and proxies is distasteful in these forums, because it presumes a lack of independence or freedom of action that goes against the grain with most capsuleers. At the same time, it's an essential part of understanding the mess that is the Intergalactic Summit, and the cheap rhetorical ploys used by some to try to score points.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3524
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:51:04 -
[164] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Fascinating. Perhaps you should have started there instead of the overwrought and oh so noble concern trolling on behalf of koyonoke plague victims.
The misuse of "Overshadows" in headline was obviously an amateur mistake, and deserved to be criticized as such. Instead you let your now admitted personal animus run amok.
What I admitted is that it's quite possibly a factor. It doesn't mean there was anything disingenuous about the criticism.
I don't lie very much, Mr. Arto. I don't bother much with trickery. And, I also don't pretend to fully know my own mind. Sometimes there's a lot more going on than I will easily admit to myself.
I want to understand myself. I want to understand others as well. I want to see. Sometimes, that means testing someone else's fabric of illusions. Illusions they want to show me; illusions they want to show themselves.
Sometimes I might say more than I should. But what I say, I normally mean. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3271
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 19:35:49 -
[165] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's not just that a lot is being said, but the things being said and what/who it's being said to and about. Of course I could be wrong but there's just so much smoke for there not to be a fire somewhere. Here ... uh. What are you trying to track down, exactly, Miz? That Makoto Priano has an ego? ... I think she admitted as much a page or two back. That I have an ego? ... Sure. Probably. Yeah.
Nah. Miz is just totally shocked to find out I'm arrogant. Totally. See? That's her shocked face. Or maybe it's her 'I'm gonna taser you' face. I mean, being tasered was pretty shocking.
Ohh! No, wait! That's her 'Red, get the hel off my galnet' face!
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 19:41:11 -
[166] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:A simple media observer would know that context is key.
Unfortunately, you've put your strong analysis skills in service of a presumed conclusion that is incorrect.
Must you continue belaboring the issue? Or have you made your point?
Aria Jenneth wrote: What I admitted is that it's quite possibly a factor. It doesn't mean there was anything disingenuous about the criticism.
I don't lie very much, Mr. Arto. I don't bother much with trickery. And, I also don't pretend to fully know my own mind. Sometimes there's a lot more going on than I will easily admit to myself.
I want to understand myself. I want to understand others as well. I want to see. Sometimes, that means testing someone else's fabric of illusions. Illusions they want to show me; illusions they want to show themselves.
Sometimes I might say more than I should. But what I say, I normally mean.
Well, then I hope this experience has been a useful side trip on your journey to self enlightenment. Perhaps your heathen insecurities would be further assuaged by a period of prayer and reflection? |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1599
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 19:45:37 -
[167] - Quote
No tasers. You're getting plugged directly into the mains at this point.
... now get off my galnet. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3527
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:00:06 -
[168] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Well, then I hope this experience has been a useful side trip on your journey to self enlightenment. Perhaps your heathen insecurities would be further assuaged by a period of prayer and reflection?
Uh ... I think I'm good for now, Mr. Arto. Thanks, though.
By the way, it's hard to find a proxy who'll admit to being a proxy, or a sock-puppeteer who'll admit to being one, so ... you and Mr. Syagrius both denying it? Doesn't mean a lot. It's not really evidence either way.
Another impression might develop with time. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:03:39 -
[169] - Quote
Have you made your point yet? I think everyone who's reading this understood your accusation several pages ago. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3528
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:10:34 -
[170] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Have you made your point yet? I think everyone who's reading this understood your accusation several pages ago.
I did mention that I'm maybe just a little like Arrendis this way, Mr. Arto? Besides, you're giving more clues off all the time! Mr. Syagrius seems to think I jump from conclusion to conclusion; really it's more like I lean a little this way, or a little that way. You're helping me find a way towards understanding who I'm talking to, whether you're really Mr. Syagrius or not.
Why would I stop sparring with you when I'm getting so many little glimpses into the person that is Nai Arto? It's fun! |
|
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
427
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:20:12 -
[171] - Quote
My favorite thing about this is just another breeding ground for the same handful of people to come in and spew huge pages and pages and pages of rhetoric between one another instead of anyone who actually enjoys the content to speak and comment on it, lest they be buried beneath ten hours of reading and high-chin sarcasm.
I don't see how this is surprising, or new, or very upsetting at all.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:22:24 -
[172] - Quote
By all means, let us debate on actual productive topics then. Whatever context of suspicion you felt was neccessary regarding my origin has been more than adequately established. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3529
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:25:59 -
[173] - Quote
Sure. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:33:55 -
[174] - Quote
One way or another, all will be reunified when the Reclaiming is accomplished. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1104
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:38:19 -
[175] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Careful, I suggested that and look what happened.
That suggests you know what happened. We all know that's impossible, though, because it would've required reading, which you don't do.
Can we end this obnoxious habit of assuming that someone who thinks very differently than us simply doesn't think? It's pretty obvious by the way one carries themselves if they're well-read or not. Let's not pretend that because we don't like someone, these indicators aren't there. It's childish.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9613
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:45:57 -
[176] - Quote
Mr. Galente, it's actually a jibe based on Syagrius calling Ms. Jenneth cynical, and then claiming he... didn't read what she had wrote? Or something to that effect?
And then he made a post about the usual suspects, and then made a post about how he was proven correct exactly 51 seconds after the first-- again, strongly suggesting he was either posturing for dramatic effect, or hadn't read the material he was commenting on.
Arrendis is, for better or worse, quite capable of raking someone over the coals for a rhetorical misstep.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3529
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 21:17:14 -
[177] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:One way or another, all will be reunified when the Reclaiming is accomplished.
See, now you're talking more like I'd usually expect from the Amarr. Only, also, you're now likely trying to allay a suspicion.
In any case, respectfully, I'll pass on debating the Reclaiming, sir. That one really is kind of a thorny issue for me, and it's a bit removed from, well, this entire thread, really. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 21:43:55 -
[178] - Quote
Fair enough. It is the kind of topic that tends to be generally discomforting.
Perhaps our conversation should focus on the new article published today? I must say from a theological perspective this is the most interesting submission yet. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
440
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 22:33:23 -
[179] - Quote
New, from The Federal Frontier: The Soul and the Capsuleer, by Saint Michael's Soul. An essay on the Jovian Disease and how it relates to the Capsuleers.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1703
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 22:34:37 -
[180] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:wrote? Or something to that effect? Or I read the remainder of the thread prior to making either post as I sometimes do. I am shocked your vaunted research skills missed that.
Makoto Priano wrote:Arrendis is, for better or worse, quite capable of raking someone over the coals for a rhetorical misstep. Actually that isn't what she is doing. She is confirming your erroneous assumption. Which by current logic means you are actually one and the same person, and thus everything you or she says should be ignored as irrelevant. After all, you both tend to say in a paragraph what could be accomplished with a nod.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3529
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 22:37:20 -
[181] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Fair enough. It is the kind of topic that tends to be generally discomforting. Perhaps our conversation should focus on the new article published today? I must say from a theological perspective this is the most interesting submission yet. Well, it would be, although the concept of the soul it discusses is one that comes from neither of our traditions. Although, the question of whether souls reincarnate is a little less important than what the article's really saying, which is to suggest that we're damaging ourselves with repeated copying and driving ourselves into despair and eventual self-destruction. It's not a new idea, but I'd find it a lot more persuasive if I thought that it was really the cloning that is the problem.
The state of my mind, and soul, is kind of a major concern for me. In a very real way, it's why I'm in the Empire to begin with.
I clone pretty regularly. Not emergency medical cloning so much; that's only happened a couple times, but jump-cloning, which turns out to be more like emergency cloning than I thought (they don't actually preserve our old bodies; we get our brains burned out by the scan, per usual. It's just they salvage the implants). If the article's thesis is correct, I should be kind of on a downward spiral as long as this continues, or at the very least the cloning itself should be a corrosive influence interfering with any efforts I might be making to heal or grow as a person.
I don't ... actually think that's the heart of it, though. If I had to name a single factor that's been a kind of dark influence in my life, I think it's a more traditional soul-eroding problem: we tend to have a pretty casual familiarity with other people's deaths.
We're a warrior caste; those of us who don't kill supply those who do. Unlike more traditional warrior castes, of course, we don't die. The people around us do, though, and it happens pretty often. Sometimes it's because we kill them; sometimes it's because we get them killed. It's something nearly as inherent to us as the clone.
Even if you only live, and die, once, being responsible for a hundred thousand deaths would kind of eat at your spirit. That applies whether you believe in "spirits" or not. Call it your mental state; call it your soul; it doesn't really matter: mass murder is hard on atheists, too.
It's part of our job, to be weapons. It's hard to get away from it completely. We find different ways to cope. My friend Alizabeth approaches the whole thing in a very soldierly way: she gets to know her people, develops camaraderie and trust. Feels responsible for what becomes of them.
I think that would drive me insane. ... I'm not good at keeping everything professional, or just accepting responsibility if someone I considered a friend is gone from this world forever. I, instead, accept it as my role, but, I depersonalize it. I treat my crews like cells in my body: living, vital, with needs that play strongly into how they perform when I need them to, but ... not as friends or comrades. More as part of myself. Components in the ship I inhabit.
It's not a perfect solution. I approach it impersonally, but that doesn't make me any less a killer. And it's not like I have strong beliefs that I consider to justify the deaths I've caused-- but at the same time I do still accept my role as necessary.
If I let it, I think that's the dynamic that would kill my soul. That's the wound I'm kind of trying to heal, even if I know I'll probably never be quite okay.
So ... I think, it doesn't have to be the copying. Even without cloning, why would anyone expect an entire caste of mass killers to be spiritually and/or psychologically healthy people? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3273
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 23:33:43 -
[182] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote: Can we end this obnoxious habit of assuming that someone who thinks very differently than us simply doesn't think? It's pretty obvious by the way one carries themselves if they're well-read or not. Let's not pretend that because we don't like someone, these indicators aren't there. It's childish.
Actually, Jason, I'm just throwing back in his face his own earlier statement that when things get 'wordy', he ignores them and doesn't read it, because he's easily distracted.
See, if he says he doesn't read when people start actually talking at length, and then comes back and asserts he knows what's been said in a long-conversation he would've needed to read... then I'm gonna be my normal jerk self to the inconsistent dillweed who wants his own statements to be taken at face value while expressly contradicting himself and demonstration that they shouldn't be. You know?
It's got nothing to do with thinking differently than I do. It's all about saying something stupid and dismissive so he can be a jerk to someone, and then having his own words wrapped around his neck and twisted, hard. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3273
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 23:37:12 -
[183] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:and then made a post about how he was proven correct exactly 51 seconds after the first Or I read the remainder of the thread prior to making either post as I sometimes do. I am shocked your vaunted research skills missed that.
Actually, see, if you did that, then the first of your two posts, 51 seconds apart, would have been disingenuous and deceitful, as the strong implication was made that you hadn't read anything yet, and in fact were wary of doing so.
In other words, with only a 51 second delay, either you being a dishonest twit with the first one, or you were being a dishonest twit with the second one, and now I'm calling you a dishonest twit. Repeatedly. And using your own assertion to do it. You dishonest twit. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3273
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 00:07:55 -
[184] - Quote
Oh, and to touch on your attempted obfuscation about Makoto and I being the same person because we've both thrown your successive claims of 'I don't read it when you get wordy' and 'I read all of it' even though we obviously got totally wordy back in your face as 'these statements are mutually exclusive' evidence of your being a deceitful twit.
I appreciate that you're trying to use that accusation to derail similar suspicions about you and Mr. I Can Make An Authoritative Claim About Angels And Then Totally Refuse To Demonstrate Any Actual Knowledge On The Topic When Challenged, but a)you'll note that one of the significant points being offered about the possibility that two of you are close associates is that you have very similar patterns of language use. Not just 'OMG, you totally have the same word count in your posts!' In fact, nothing of that sort, but actual analysis of your methods of self-description, your constructions of sentences, your tendencies toward certain patterns of punctuation, etc.
Now, I personally have not made that claim. I don't know if you're associates. I don't care. Actually, I kind hope you're not, because while whasisface the Angel Guy leaves himself open a lot, he seems to do it sincerely, and I can respect his sincerity. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly proven yourself to be... what was that term again? Oh yes, a deceitful twit. You deceitful twit.
For example: by using this particular claim in your attempted obfuscation, you're relying entirely on the fact that Makoto and I use more words than you do in an average post. You say this as if it demonstrates a similar tendency in our average posting length. However, it ignores the actual relative length of our posts when compared to one another. And I say this because, well, Makoto is positively brief, you little turdblossom.
Moreover, the two of us don't use language in anything even vaguely resembling a similar manner. Makoto's language tends to be a bit circumspect, a bit reserved, and generally polite. Now, I dunno if you've noticed this, twit, but 'polite' isn't exactly something I'm generally accused of being, especially not when dealing with a deceitful little twit. Which, you know, is precisely what I'm dealing with right now.
I generally don't find myself to be at all circumspect in my opinions, either. In fact, I'd really tend to describe my style of expressing myself as more 'blunt-force trauma'. I do tend to be a little more self-analytical in my presentation than Makoto, though. I haven't exactly noticed, for example, any tendency in her postings to tangent off into a brief bought of self-examination or otherwise speculation on her own tendenciesGÇöexcept, of course, for when things like her own arrogance were directly raised as a conversation topic. But of course, then she's really more addressing a statement made by someone else, and not diverting off into introspective self-examination, now is she?
Also, you'll note the punctuation tendencies issue was raised. Makoto's fond of hyphens, when she uses anything like that. I'm more of a fan of proper em-dash usage but you might have freaking gotten that from my first post in this entire thread, you deceitful twit. Of course, that would assume you read, which you've claimed you don't. So I'd normally be inclined to write that one off as 'well, I guess he missed it', except for the fact that we've pretty solidly established that I find you to be a deceityful twit.
Which brings us to another demonstrable indicator that Makoto and I aren't the same individual: I'm far more given to expressing segments of inner monologue during my tangents of self-examination than Makoto is, even when the topic of conversation is her personality traits, resulting in her own brief bouts of public self-examination.
But back to the punctuation and grammar thing: really, there's absolutely no comparison between the way the two of us use language. That you settle on verbosity, and then blatantly, flagrantly manage to equate Makoto's capacity to expand on her points and my unmitigated glee in being able to express myself at maddening length over the smallest and most trivial of matters is clearly evidence of one of two things: either a)you're a complete moron, or b)you're simply a deceitful twit.
I'd say I'll leave it up to you to determine which one I think is more likely, but I have to admit that at this point, in order for you to think that I believe you to be a complete moron... you'd have to actually be a complete moron. I mean, really, I think by now, pretty much anyone out there knows that I consider you a deceitful twit, and so there really shouldn't be any question. The answer, of course, is 'deceitful twit'.
So, to recap: You're a deceitful twit. You make blatantly self-contradictory claims, and then when you're called on it, you attempt to weasel out of that fact by acting like it was all a thetorical tactic. The problem there, of course, is that when utilizing a rhetorical tactic, one must actually employ rhetoric, which you've proven again and again you're simply unwilling on incapable of doing. Which means that when you claim to have been doing so, it's a pretty naked attempt at deceit, twit.
And when called on these further attempts at deceit, you try to throw up misdirection and nonsense claims about writing style and idenficiation based on the use of language that really, a blind and illiterate fedo would be able to demolish in a debate. It would be sad if it weren't entirely predictable. No, wait, I'm wrong. It's entirely predictable, yeah, but it's still sad. Not that I expect you to stop any time soon. It seems to be about the limit of your twit-like mental abilities.
Except, of course, that it's unfair and inaccurate of me to describe your mental abilities as 'twit-like'. It insults twit-like people who aren't twits. You deceitful twit. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1706
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 00:49:10 -
[185] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Many, many, many words. Goodness, you do get worked up over the smallest things.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3273
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 00:55:23 -
[186] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Arrendis wrote:Many, many, many words. Goodness, you do get worked up over the smallest things.
You clearly missed the 'gleeful' part, you deceitful twit. I amuse myself. That's really all I need out of this. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
69
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 01:19:39 -
[187] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: I amuse myself. That's really all I need out of this.
An extra hand can do wonders in this aspect.
|
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2280
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 01:42:17 -
[188] - Quote
Reading the 'deceitful twit' speech post does feel like having a sledgehammer introduced to my cranium.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3536
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 01:53:04 -
[189] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Reading the 'deceitful twit' speech post does feel like having a sledgehammer introduced to my cranium.
It seems like that would feel like a spike of terror and then nothing, ever again.
Anyway I kind of get your meaning, I think, but it didn't seem so painful to me. I guess I'm pretty unhappy with Mr. Syagrius right now: I really didn't mind watching him rhetorically beaten to a bloody mass.
It's just a pity he might be unaware that it happened. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2283
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 01:58:28 -
[190] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Reading the 'deceitful twit' speech post does feel like having a sledgehammer introduced to my cranium. It seems like that would feel like a spike of terror and then nothing, ever again. Anyway I kind of get your meaning, I think, but it didn't seem so painful to me. I guess I'm pretty unhappy with Mr. Syagrius right now: I really didn't mind watching him rhetorically beaten to a bloody mass. It's just a pity he might be unaware that it happened.
I meant a sudden sensation of a very sore head, followed by tinnitus and disorientation.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 02:20:49 -
[191] - Quote
Its a shame nobody seems interested in staying on topic but Ms. Jenneth.
Your previous response raises some important points. I don't think very many people would argue with your contention that Capsuleer habits of violence are psychologically and emotionally damaging. Is that all a soul consists of though? Our thoughts and emotions?
If such a thing could be isolated by science, perhaps the experiment would involve setting up control and test groups of capsuleers to observe over time. But science has failed for millennia to isolate or identify what we think of as a "soul," and still the idea persists.
Clearly the author intended his essay to raise more questions than provide answers. |
Oland Jan
Antumbra
18
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 02:23:24 -
[192] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Reading the 'deceitful twit' speech post does feel like having a sledgehammer introduced to my cranium. It seems like that would feel like a spike of terror and then nothing, ever again. Anyway I kind of get your meaning, I think, but it didn't seem so painful to me. I guess I'm pretty unhappy with Mr. Syagrius right now: I really didn't mind watching him rhetorically beaten to a bloody mass. It's just a pity he might be unaware that it happened. I meant a sudden sensation of a very sore head, followed by tinnitus and disorientation. Does she not get that he seems to be winning to some of us?
|
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2287
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 02:31:08 -
[193] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Reading the 'deceitful twit' speech post does feel like having a sledgehammer introduced to my cranium. It seems like that would feel like a spike of terror and then nothing, ever again. Anyway I kind of get your meaning, I think, but it didn't seem so painful to me. I guess I'm pretty unhappy with Mr. Syagrius right now: I really didn't mind watching him rhetorically beaten to a bloody mass. It's just a pity he might be unaware that it happened. I meant a sudden sensation of a very sore head, followed by tinnitus and disorientation. Does she not get that he seems to be winning to some of us?
I think they are both losers here. Nobody really wins an argument.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3279
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 02:53:41 -
[194] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:Does she not get that he seems to be winning to some of us?
Did you not get the part where I pretty clearly said I'm amusing myself and don't give a damn about the opinions of more than maybe half a dozen people in this cluster? I mean, if you didn't, I'd be happy to explain exactly what I mean. At length. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3279
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 02:55:32 -
[195] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote: I think they are both losers here. Nobody really wins an argument.
As long as you're having fun, you're winning in this life. And if you're not having fun, you should go do something else. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3588
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 03:03:14 -
[196] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:Does she not get that he seems to be winning to some of us? ... uh ... I think I'll just class that under "an opinion someone had," Mr. Jan.
Nai Arto wrote:Its a shame nobody seems interested in staying on topic but Ms. Jenneth.
Your previous response raises some important points. I don't think very many people would argue with your contention that Capsuleer habits of violence are psychologically and emotionally damaging. Is that all a soul consists of though? Our thoughts and emotions?
If such a thing could be isolated by science, perhaps the experiment would involve setting up control and test groups of capsuleers to observe over time. But science has failed for millennia to isolate or identify what we think of as a "soul," and still the idea persists.
Clearly the author intended his essay to raise more questions than provide answers. Maybe. He has a pretty specific idea of how he thinks it interacts with human life and cloning rigs, though.
My own beliefs about the soul are a little different. My sect teaches that the soul is, very simply, who you are, in the very broadest possible sense: everything you've been, seen, done: the lives you've touched and the way you've touched them; the things that are a little different because of you, for good or ill. Children taught. People killed. Footprints left. Every sprout planted or stepped on.
To us, your soul is who you are in the Totality-- your self, all that you've ever been, echoing through the universe. As you might guess, I don't think of it as something a burn scanner can do a lot of damage to. ... unless it means making sure someone remains in this world longer than they maybe should have, long enough to do a lot of harm in it.
So, yeah. To me, what would poison and blacken my soul is the thing, whatever it might be, that would make me a harmful person, more than I already am.
Killing seems mostly to lead to more killing, more people taken out of the world. It's maybe a necessary role, and I can't pretend I didn't kind of know what I was getting into, but ...
Fear for my soul, to me, isn't about Paradise, the Abyss, or Hell-- no spirit world at all. I don't believe in such places, but I don't want my mark on the world to be all black and red. Even if that's kind of who I am.
So, even if I can't help but be an inky little shadow, I cling to the brightest source of light I can find, and link my fate with hers. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1107
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 07:38:15 -
[197] - Quote
The new article about the capsuleer's soul is a good read. I think the author is a bit pessimistic about the cycle of the capsuleer though (ignoring the semi-common capsuleer 'personal renaissance' some people experience where they return after hiatus with newly found passion). I think if the soul was being corrupted or lost over many clonings, we'd start to feel it in ways more than just the depression and nihilism typical of standard war veterans.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
Saint Michaels Soul
Moira. Villore Accords
34
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 11:32:49 -
[198] - Quote
> Clearly the author intended his essay to raise more questions than provide answers.
It is indeed pure conjecture based on my beliefs and observations. The fact that the Jove with their superior science were unable to identify the cause of their affliction suggests to me that there isn't a conventional cause for the disease. I'm looking for potential links to anything that might have been outside the Jovian ken and ancient wisdom on the nature of the soul is one such jumping off point.
The parallels between the Jovian disease and the behavior of implanted humans over a period of time shouldn't be lightly dismissed, even of there are presently very visible examples of capsuleers that appear unaffected - Cloning is still a very new technology for us and we know that certain Jovians were able to resist their illness much longer than others before succumbing. Who is to say that we're not heading in the same direction.
I wouldn't say I'm pessimistic though (and hopefully I'm wrong, for purely selfish reasons!), just pointing out a strange coincidence that I believe bears more investigation from those brighter and more scientifically inclined than me. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3281
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 15:06:51 -
[199] - Quote
One of the biggest problems with any discussion about the nature of the soul, or possible deleterious effects upon it from a given behavior or technology is that, well... demonstrate you've got one.
I mean, are leprechauns or pixies damaged by cloning? Do unicorns get depressed after receiving implants? Are wolves subject to the Jovian disease??
The Jove did a lot more than just use some impants to control their ships. They manipulated their genome, actively, across the entire time the rest of us were scratching our way back into space. Last time I checked, none of the implants in my spinal column change my genetic code. Each of my clones is just as 'normal human genome' as the last.
So before we go positing that the normal signs of combat-related PTSD are a spiritual malaise related to the Jovian disease,
- You need to establish there is actually a spiritual component to your being (not a spiritual belief in your mind) in the first place,
- And you need to account for the missing thousand+ years of genetic manipulation that the Jove survived just fine before they all gave up on sex and moped their way to extinction.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services Singularity Syndicate
2143
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 15:33:14 -
[200] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:...the Jove survived just fine before they all gave up on sex and moped their way to extinction. [/list]
You just hit on the key to life. If a race gives up on sex they falter and whither away. Clearly sex is the key to a race's survival, both physically and spiritually.
I *knew* those Amarrian orgies were a good idea. It's for the good of humanity. |
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7484
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 15:53:02 -
[201] - Quote
It's a common thing for people to lump cloning in with the ancillary practices that it either demands or makes possible.
Cloning is simply the practice of creating populations of organisms with identical DNA. It is my understanding that Jovian disease is nothing to do with the practice of cloning and everything to do with the degree to which the Jovians manipulated their baseline DNA.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3283
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 15:56:42 -
[202] - Quote
The really interesting question about the Jovian disease is: since they obviously knew that, why didn't they just revert the last few rounds of changes to get back to 'gonads' instead of 'stopnads'? Did they realy just all up and decide to emo-to-oblivion so hard they just couldn't muster the energy to undo their nonsense? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services Singularity Syndicate
2144
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 16:01:56 -
[203] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:The really interesting question about the Jovian disease is: since they obviously knew that, why didn't they just revert the last few rounds of changes to get back to 'gonads' instead of 'stopnads'? Did they realy just all up and decide to emo-to-oblivion so hard they just couldn't muster the energy to undo their nonsense?
My guess would be that the genome editing got out of control, mistakes were made, too many concurrent branches of the 'working' genome copy were taken and then worked upon.
Even just coding for wetware MF's takes a huge amount of code control. I'd hate to try to manage that on genome editing. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3283
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 16:40:32 -
[204] - Quote
Yeah, that's exactly why I find it so weird that none of them, across the entire race, maintained a 'Last Known Good' version archived someplace. Maybe even keep a few of the infomorphs of that iteration stored in an artificial constructed existence in case of a catastrophic...
. . .
Fudge. They did, didn't they? Oh, damn damn damn, that makes sense. We are so boned. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services Singularity Syndicate
2144
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 16:45:54 -
[205] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Yeah, that's exactly why I find it so weird that none of them, across the entire race, maintained a 'Last Known Good' version archived someplace. Maybe even keep a few of the infomorphs of that iteration stored in an artificial constructed existence in case of a catastrophic...
. . .
Fudge. They did, didn't they? Oh, damn damn damn, that makes sense. We are so boned.
If I am a part of someone's 'Last Known Good' construct I can assure you it is not we who are boned... |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 17:06:21 -
[206] - Quote
Sounds like she probably means the Sleepers. Y'know, the ones Capsuleers have been harvesting for their shiny implants? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3283
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 17:09:55 -
[207] - Quote
No, not us.
Imagine a population element the Jove had no societal need for at that point, but couldn't rule out needing in the future. like, say, an entire warrior-caste similar to the way the Empires use us.
Genetically, we're perfectly viable human stock. You keep that on record. When you get to a point where your society doesn't need immortal weapons, where we're more of a danger than an asset, you decommission us. You don't know what's going to happen in the future, so why destroy infomorphs with hundreds of years of combat experience dealing with all manner of emergent, chaotic, unpredictable crises. You might need that sort of thing in the future. So you archive that, too. You build a virtual environment, upload the infomorphs.
Then you store it someplace. Consider the discussions about kidnapping Napkins and 'storing' him in cryo. You don't want to have to worry about your violent superweapons getting loose and being pissed off, so the storage facilities need to be someplace remote. someplace isolated. And you need to make sure that a)they'll still be there when they're needed, but b)they won't get out before that. AND you need to ensure that if these things are needed, they'll be able to be useful, because you do not know what conditions will be, maybe your enlightened society's under attack and you need these things because you don't even remember HOW to make weapons.
So these storage systems are surrounded with massive constructs that keep anyone from getting a clue as to what's inside. And systems that can begin producing war materiel. AND systems that protect all those vital systems from all manner of exposure to the elements, and as you lump failsafe upon failsafe onto the design, it's so big that it's too big to be subtle or hidden on any dirtside construction.
So, stick 'em out in space it is. Well, then you need to worry about spacefarers you don't anticipate or have contact with. And you don't want to post big signs that say 'HEY! LIVING SUPERWEAPON CONTAINMENT FACILITY, BACK THE HEL OFF', right? So you put in place automated defenses to shoo people away. You also, because again: this may have to start up from scratch and now you're out in space include automatons that can go out and collect the one thing you can't store in serious bulk without getting to the point of building artificial ecosystems: biological matter to be reprocessed into amino acids and used to build the DNA sequences you need, and then flash-grown via cloning technology itno viable bodies for your warrior-infomorphs.
That explains the why that we haven't had in this puzzle. Why now? Why turn up after the collapse of Jove civilization and the exposure of the Observatories? Why get the data from the Observatories, then start attacking us? What are they doing that we're not seeing?
They're not making any distinction between usGÇöbetween the capsuleer-saturated empiresGÇöand the Sansha Nation. They're a hedge on the bet of cooperating with 'normal' humans, and an emergency failsafe in the event of complete societal collapse. Which means they're likely rebuilding on a massive scale... we just can't find them.
Nai Arto wrote:Sounds like she probably means the Sleepers. Y'know, the ones Capsuleers have been harvesting for their shiny implants?
No, those were just the automated 'BEWARE OF SUPERWEAPON' signs. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1602
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 17:20:22 -
[208] - Quote
Heard worse theories. That said, they're a tad too incompetent and easily thwarted by us for that theory to be deserving of quite such dire language. We've proven superior to them already, so unless they're hiding a crapton of competence and brainpower for some later date, they don't fit the profile of 'experienced infomorphs/weapons stored for a rainy day' exactly. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3284
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 17:30:25 -
[209] - Quote
Hard to say there, Miz. How rusty would you be after a few centuries in a computer being subjected to the 5,000,000,000 part lecture series 'Naupliusism and You: The Red God Doesn't Like You Very Much'? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7485
|
Posted - 2017.04.27 18:53:15 -
[210] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:The really interesting question about the Jovian disease is: since they obviously knew that, why didn't they just revert the last few rounds of changes to get back to 'gonads' instead of 'stopnads'? Did they realy just all up and decide to emo-to-oblivion so hard they just couldn't muster the energy to undo their nonsense?
You're talking about an essential drive here, Arrendis. There are plenty of people who have a slightly remodelled version of a natural drive, you can't throw a bread roll in the Tyrin pilot ready room without hitting someone like that. Then there's Origin, which contains a number of pilots who have expanded on that remodelling to the extent that it becomes very confusing for a less reconstructed person.
The most transhuman of Origin's inhabitants, however, is far more similar to those of us with baseline urges than to the Jove. They haven't suppressed, redirected or alternatively harnessed their base notions they have completely excised them. There is nothing to build with, any more.
I was sequenced from an established genetic line in a lineage catalogue, engineered to a specification, batched in a steel tube, decanted and then raised as a creche clone of the Tube Child program. My wife was conceived from her parents, gestated naturally in a womb, born and then raised as a child. We are more or less identical compared to each other as opposed to a Jovian. Replacing all those natural words with artificial equivalents really means very little - because Suvee was still looking to make PEOPLE from the Tube Child program. The Jovians lost sight of what a person was - and it turns out that complex interactions of diverse genetic expressions lead to meta-characteristics which have occulted interactions which do not yield readily to prediction using standard analytic techniques.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
Oland Jan
Antumbra
20
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 00:29:56 -
[211] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Oland Jan wrote:Does she not get that he seems to be winning to some of us?
Did you not get the part where I pretty clearly said I'm amusing myself and don't give a damn about the opinions of more than maybe half a dozen people in this cluster? I mean, if you didn't, I'd be happy to explain exactly what I mean. At length. Whatever turns your crank sister. But I have news you are the most praise needy person I have met so far.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3287
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 00:47:59 -
[212] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:you are the most praise needy person I have met so far.
Yup. That's totally me. Totally not just an unrepentant, smug-as-feck pedantic jackwagon, deeply amused with my own cleverness who enjoys the 'sound' of my own literary voice and has absolutely no problem acknowledging my many personality flaws. Couldn't possibly be that. Nope. You must be right. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3609
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 00:53:48 -
[213] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:Arrendis wrote:Did you not get the part where I pretty clearly said I'm amusing myself and don't give a damn about the opinions of more than maybe half a dozen people in this cluster? I mean, if you didn't, I'd be happy to explain exactly what I mean. At length. Whatever turns your crank sister. But I have news you are the most praise needy person I have met so far. And here we'd moved on to something else.. |
Oland Jan
Antumbra
20
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 00:55:04 -
[214] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Oland Jan wrote:you are the most praise needy person I have met so far.
Yup. That's totally me. Totally not just an unrepentant, smug-as-feck pedantic jackwagon, deeply amused with my own cleverness who enjoys the 'sound' of my own literary voice and has absolutely no problem acknowledging my many personality flaws. Couldn't possibly be that. Nope. You must be right. Well, I have been asked to hush by someone you don't like very much. But that could be anyone right. I didn't say I didn't like you. Well ok I don't. But maybe your not all bad.
|
Oland Jan
Antumbra
23
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 00:56:43 -
[215] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Oland Jan wrote:Arrendis wrote:Did you not get the part where I pretty clearly said I'm amusing myself and don't give a damn about the opinions of more than maybe half a dozen people in this cluster? I mean, if you didn't, I'd be happy to explain exactly what I mean. At length. Whatever turns your crank sister. But I have news you are the most praise needy person I have met so far. And here we'd moved on to something else.. Yes princess I forgot you get to set the rules. Ok I am done. Seriously.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3287
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 01:07:28 -
[216] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:Well, I have been asked to hush by someone you don't like very much. But that could be anyone right. I didn't say I didn't like you. Well ok I don't. But maybe your not all bad.
Hey, man, do what y'gotta. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1709
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 03:11:09 -
[217] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:New, from The Federal Frontier: The Soul and the Capsuleer, by Saint Michael's Soul. An essay on the Jovian Disease and how it relates to the Capsuleers. It was a fascinating article and a matter I once gave considerable thought.
I am often concerned that I stopped being me, the me I used to be, a long while back. But I do my best still. My body is the same, I keep it age appropriate out of consideration for others. But still, it isnGÇÖt the same is it, I can feel it.
My wife once told me she appreciated it but, "when you have been lovers for as long as we have, you know your partnerGÇÖs body like a familiar landscape. A scar from a mishap climbing for Uellaron blossoms, a burn from a campfire ember, a mark of passionGǪ gone.GÇ¥
What good can one suppose when you turn your own death into nothing more than a learning experience.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
98
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 09:09:18 -
[218] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
Yup. That's totally me. Totally not just an unrepentant, smug-as-feck pedantic jackwagon, deeply amused with my own cleverness who enjoys the 'sound' of my own literary voice and has absolutely no problem acknowledging my many personality flaws. Couldn't possibly be that. Nope. You must be right.
I want to hear the sound of your prolix voice chanting your pedantic dissection of the texts exposed here being wispered right at my ear while i give you an extra hand to amuse yourself.
Now |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2087
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 13:14:26 -
[219] - Quote
I haven't been reading the IGS much this week.
Who's currently winning in this thread ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3293
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 13:22:05 -
[220] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Who's currently winning in this thread ?
Gonna go with 'The Federal Frontier', since we're keeping the thread about their site nice and visible. No such thing as bad press, right? |
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7493
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 14:13:04 -
[221] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Arrendis wrote:
Yup. That's totally me. Totally not just an unrepentant, smug-as-feck pedantic jackwagon, deeply amused with my own cleverness who enjoys the 'sound' of my own literary voice and has absolutely no problem acknowledging my many personality flaws. Couldn't possibly be that. Nope. You must be right.
I want to hear the sound of your prolix voice chanting your pedantic dissection of the texts exposed here being wispered right at my ear while i give you an extra hand to amuse yourself. Now
Okay, I feel like someone needs to give you the talk that we used to give Marines coming onto shore leave. If you tell me where you are, I'll contact station security and get you a list of all the reputable houses of negotiable affection. You obviously need some relief.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
919
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 14:27:56 -
[222] - Quote
Namas.
Ok, I gave up on finding an apology for, or something wise to be said in defense of, the journalistic faux-pas when I reached post #31, where M. Galente appears to say "Shut up with your valid criticisms, you are not the target audience."
Who is the target audience? Likely not be the Gallente Feds. The reasons I agree with the criticism likely has a lot to do with the fact that I am a Gallente and a Federal citizen. Although...maybe the target audience is the Hawks?
Anyway, this news site has crossed the frontier. I think it will be hard restoring a reputation damaged so severely so soon. ...the site's reputation, not Soter's, althought it may be partly true for both.
Peace,
-Ch+¬ Biko
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3295
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 14:39:58 -
[223] - Quote
Really? I'm curious (like, legitimately so): what do you feel damaged the site's credibility? Where do you find fault with it, as a Federal citizen? |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 16:28:25 -
[224] - Quote
Che Biko wrote: Although...maybe the target audience is the Hawks? -Ch+¬ Biko
Not per-se.
I can understand that many of our fellow citizens will not see things the same way. The life in the de-militarized border regions can be hard and unforgiving. Not only do we have to deal with the remnants of Provist terrorism and unrelenting Caldari militants, but also capsuleer outlaws, Amarr slavers and crusaders, incursions by powerful independent capsuleer alliances from null-security space, the Serpentis Corporation and all manner of other criminal elements.
It is a harsh and dangerous life. To many who live in peace within the borders of our nation, it may seem almost inconceivable how the capsuleers of the volunteer militias can be so callous and vindictive, but we are all confronted with death, human tragedies and atrocities on an almost daily basis. This is a heavy burden for any human being, and it changes a person almost as much as the act of becoming a capsuleer itself.
Particularly, many of us have lost their tolerance for political subtleties. The diplomatic finesse of usual interaction on that stage appears empty and vain in the face of conditions we face.
Old Man Star may be just one gate-jump from Villore, but the realities of low-security space could not be further from what goes on in the lobby-chambers and parliamentary foyers of the capital, let alone life in the cities of Luminaire.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3616
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 16:42:25 -
[225] - Quote
Mr. Raimo? Just so you're aware who you're talking to, Che is a sometime wormhole dweller.
And an itty bitty bit of a utopian idealist. The list of pacifist capsuleers I've met is pretty short. Actually, mostly, it's just him.
... Though I guess it's been a little while since I really spoke with him about such things, so, I don't know how well those beliefs weathered living in Origin. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
101
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 21:35:33 -
[226] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Okay, I feel like someone needs to give you the talk that we used to give Marines coming onto shore leave. If you tell me where you are, I'll contact station security and get you a list of all the reputable houses of negotiable affection. You obviously need some relief.
It is of short sight to reduce my interest for Arrendis as merely physical. The joys that the flesh and a proper state of mind can offer are my study and practice, so worry not, i-¦m quite fulfilled in this regard. In fact, some of your references of "negotiable affection" (at least the excellent ones) probably trained under supervision of my institute.
It-¦s just that her sassines amused me. We were playing a little flirtation game and was fun to get a glimpse of what makes her feel good.
Just as was fun to get a glimpse of what our Amarr fellow does to it-¦s slaves since he won-¦t with his equals.
And just as it is watching what got your interest going. Do tell me more how you sublimate your inner instincts with the righteousness of your efficient training, your prep talks, and the secret inner joy of guiding and watching others perform the very things you do not allow yourself to.
But returning to the topic, i do want more info regarding the Drifters and hope this news site provide it.
|
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2017.04.28 22:01:08 -
[227] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mr. Raimo? Just so you're aware who you're talking to, Che is a sometime wormhole dweller.
And an itty bitty bit of a utopian idealist. The list of pacifist capsuleers I've met is pretty short. Actually, mostly, it's just him.
... Though I guess it's been a little while since I really spoke with him about such things, so, I don't know how well those beliefs weathered living in Origin.
It appears to me that M. Ch+¬ asked who the target audience for the publication was, and M. Raimo answered.
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 01:19:22 -
[228] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mr. Raimo? Just so you're aware who you're talking to, Che is a sometime wormhole dweller.
That is just the thing. In Anoikis, all we find is mysteries, other capsuleers and those who have volunteered to work as their crews. In the low-security border zones we can find colonists, settlements that were forgotten or written off by the nations which once established them, baseliner fleets and even unsuspecting highsec capsuleers who took the wrong turn.
There are so many more millions of innocents who we see suffering in those lost regions, and that is the burden I am speaking of. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3619
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 06:55:24 -
[229] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Mr. Raimo? Just so you're aware who you're talking to, Che is a sometime wormhole dweller.
And an itty bitty bit of a utopian idealist. The list of pacifist capsuleers I've met is pretty short. Actually, mostly, it's just him.
... Though I guess it's been a little while since I really spoke with him about such things, so, I don't know how well those beliefs weathered living in Origin. It appears to me that M. Ch+¬ asked who the target audience for the publication was, and M. Raimo answered.
Well ... that's true. The implication a little bit seemed to be that things look a little different from OMS than from Villore. That distinction's most meaningful if the person you're talking to is viewing the situation from Villore, which, Che kind of isn't.
I guess what I was getting at is that the faint whiff of "we have it hard out here" might be a little misdirected considering what wormholers tend to deal with. Maybe that's not quite what Mr. Raimo meant to say anyway, though. |
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
922
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 14:55:02 -
[230] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:[..] what do you feel damaged the site's credibility? Where do you find fault with it, as a Federal citizen? I'm short on time, so forgive me for pointing to this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=517596
Tarek Raimo wrote:In Anoikis, all we find is mysteries, other capsuleers and those who have volunteered to work as their crews. In the low-security border zones we can find colonists, settlements that were forgotten or written off by the nations which once established them, baseliner fleets and even unsuspecting highsec capsuleers who took the wrong turn. It appears M. Raimo has not been in Anoikis for quite a while. In Anoikis you can also find colonists, settlements that were forgotten or written off and even unsuspecting highsec capsuleers who took the wrong turn.
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3305
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 14:59:10 -
[231] - Quote
He damaged the site's credibility by... telling people it was there? Uhm...
FC, instructions unclear, cannot find ceiling fan. |
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
923
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 15:07:55 -
[232] - Quote
Hyperlink corrected.
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9683
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 15:26:42 -
[233] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:He damaged the site's credibility by... telling people it was there? Uhm...
To be honest, given my opinion of Soter...
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3621
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 18:03:58 -
[234] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:Hyperlink corrected.
Aw, Che.... |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 21:43:43 -
[235] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote: To be honest, given my opinion of Soter...
Care to elaborate Priano-haani? I have known Julianus Soter as a man of strong convictions and belligerent personality, but also as a man of true integrity. My desire is to build bridges and the first step to achieve this is to understand what stands in the way. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9689
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 23:42:24 -
[236] - Quote
With due respect, Mr. Raimo, I've not had that experience. Perhaps it's simply that I've had no direct experience, save the usual public grandstanding. Perhaps what you see as strong conviction I see as blinkered nationalism; and that belligerence, well, you and I surely agree on that.
Insofar as integrity goes, though, I've seen more of that from you. When on day two of the Inquest, ARC decisively supported the Caldari act, you came up to us to ask why, instead of merely taking a stance on preconceived notions. That is the sort of action I can support. Even if we disagree, the quest for understanding, for perspective, whether agreement comes of it, is a noble endeavor.
In Soter's case, I can't fault his unswerving loyalty. I can, however, fault his myopic lack of desire to understand the motivations of those different from him.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 02:30:01 -
[237] - Quote
Soter is a man who faces pressures of leadership. I have the privilege of thinking differently because my responsibilities are different.
Edit: I am glad that you recognized my efforts. It is my foremost intention to establish dialogue. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9692
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 02:55:09 -
[238] - Quote
Mr. Raimo, you and I are able to speak, and that's greatly appreciated. I remain unconvinced on Soter. Perhaps he and I have different understandings of what is needed to lead.
But let's not carry on overmuch.
I'll clear the thread so that the Federal Frontier may carry on with its work.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
442
|
Posted - 2017.05.03 01:21:39 -
[239] - Quote
Today in the Federal Frontier, Hecate class destroyer patrol fights space terrorist Ratain.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
444
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 23:46:10 -
[240] - Quote
Today on the Federal Frontier: a article from Tarek Raimo about why the Jin Mei supports the Gallente Federation. A recommended read.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
444
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 20:09:09 -
[241] - Quote
Today on the Federal Frontier: Hecate Patrol Neutralizes Interloper Zarvox Toral. A lucrative win for the Gallente Militia.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1621
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 20:25:38 -
[242] - Quote
Hmm. Good battlereport. Can't exactly blame the author for assuming they were 800mm ACs. I don't think I've ever seen Dual 425s on a Machariel before. Disgustingly expensive for its purpose, but I suppose when you're bankrolled by 'fans' like that, such things don't matter as much.
Honestly a bit surprised it didn't fare better against your patrol with that armament.
Looking forwards to future battlereports. A request, if you don't mind, would be analyses of lost fights. They can be far more interesting both as educational tools and narratives, as inherent biases sneak in even with the best of intentions. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
447
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 19:17:58 -
[243] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Hmm. Good battlereport. Can't exactly blame the author for assuming they were 800mm ACs. I don't think I've ever seen Dual 425s on a Machariel before. Disgustingly expensive for its purpose, but I suppose when you're bankrolled by 'fans' like that, such things don't matter as much.
Honestly a bit surprised it didn't fare better against your patrol with that armament.
Looking forwards to future battlereports. A request, if you don't mind, would be analyses of lost fights. They can be far more interesting both as educational tools and narratives, as inherent biases sneak in even with the best of intentions.
Noted, will include reports of less successful engagements. I was away planetside this past day, but another engagement might be forthcoming this evening. Stay tuned.
The gun loadout was a surprise, to be sure. The tracking speed of the dual 425mm's is so much higher, that it does have certain advantages against smaller craft. At the end of the day, it was mostly the ability of the Hecate's thermal overload circuitry that allowed us to minimize casualties as much as we did. Tech-three is certainly useful because of that.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
169
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 13:00:18 -
[244] - Quote
Mr Soter, if your writer wants to move further from the philosophy of the soul and do some practical work to test it, i think he-¦ll like to know about Project Transcendence. All factions welcome.
Join Project Transcendence.
Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 17:48:38 -
[245] - Quote
Villore Accords disavowed by the FDU! Is there a political agenda? The authorities deny it. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7544
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:19:36 -
[246] - Quote
I mean... Generally... The only thing the authorities care about is how many of their people you've shot at. That suggests that your overarching Alliance has signed some corp or corps who have people enrolled who are, how you say, "a little naughty in their sight."
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 19:27:33 -
[247] - Quote
Funny how they have a blind eye for some, but find a minor technicality to hit some others with.
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Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75203
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 19:30:12 -
[248] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:Funny how they have a blind eye for some, but find a minor technicality to hit some others with.
That is bureaucracy my friend.
Death rides a fast C4mel
|
Saint Michaels Soul
Moira. Villore Accords
34
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 08:44:54 -
[249] - Quote
I believe that the Federation have heard we're providing a stage for the Intaki Liberation Front to put out a pro-freedom article in the next few days and they were trying to shorten our leash. We're in talks with them at the moment and still intend to publish the piece. |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
72
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 22:39:14 -
[250] - Quote
I am sure the guardians of acceptable thought will appreciate our latest contribution more. |
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3807
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 22:42:09 -
[251] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:I am sure the guardians of acceptable thought will appreciate our latest contribution more.
... Right.
Citations needed.
Lots of them. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1651
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 23:29:25 -
[252] - Quote
... spirits below, I just got irrationally furious on the behalf of Caldari. I didn't think I was that invested in that side of their history, but apparently I am. That has to be a troll piece intended to ruffle feathers, if it managed to ruffle mine like that. I mean, I'm technically an enemy of theirs and there's still got to be some limits to the crap one throws out there.
Urgh, disregard me. That article made me not word good much more because reasons or something. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9775
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 00:24:29 -
[253] - Quote
You know, I've often wondered about that Gallente organization that made landfall on Caldari Prime, the Cultural Deliverance Society. The implications are fascinating. Could it be that the Gallente have been, for over seven centuries, attempting to deliver the Caldari from the darkness of being Caldari?
Edit; on hindsight, please don't respond to this. My suspicion is this hilarious farce of a piece is just trying to get peoples' hackles raised.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
72
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 00:48:45 -
[254] - Quote
There is something to be said for thinking beyond the historical narratives we have been brought up with.
For example it is still a widely held conviction among historians all over the cluster, that the Nouvelle Rouvenor attack may have been an inside job. Historical records exist which support either view, but in the Federal Standard Curriculum for history the whole thing is conveniently declared as an act of a racist Caldari splinter group.
Maybe a piece like this demonstrates how deep the divide between subjective realities can be? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7561
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 02:14:04 -
[255] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:I am sure the guardians of acceptable thought will appreciate our latest contribution more.
Trust the Gallente to complain because a man spat on their boot when it slipped off his throat.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1736
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 03:42:00 -
[256] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:I am sure the guardians of acceptable thought will appreciate our latest contribution more. You shall know the truth and the truth shall make youGǪ mad.
I usually portion the success of your exertions by those whom its disappoints. A brilliant article as always.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9776
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 03:49:51 -
[257] - Quote
I wonder, Syagrius. Does this also make the U-Nats terrorists for their orbital bombardment of a civilian population?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1737
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 03:57:01 -
[258] - Quote
Saint Michaels Soul wrote:I believe that the Federation have heard we're providing a stage for the Intaki Liberation Front to put out a pro-freedom article in the next few days and they were trying to shorten our leash. We're in talks with them at the moment and still intend to publish the piece. Now that should be rather an interesting read.
I canGÇÖt wait to see how they explain opposing the demonstrated will of the Intaki people to remain within our Federal Union as proGǪ freedom.
But I suppose I should reserve my judgments until I read the article.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1737
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 04:03:26 -
[259] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:I wonder, Syagrius. Does this also make the U-Nats terrorists for their orbital bombardment of a civilian population? Why yes, Ms. Priano it does if indeed they did.
But forgive me. Given your kinGÇÖs loose association with the truth I think it as likely that said GÇÿorbital bombardmentGÇÖ was, wherever possible limited to valid military targets.
The rest, being myth, propaganda, and lies.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7565
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 04:40:47 -
[260] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:I wonder, Syagrius. Does this also make the U-Nats terrorists for their orbital bombardment of a civilian population? Why yes, Ms. Priano it does if indeed they did. But forgive me. Given your kinGÇÖs loose association with the truth I think it as likely that said GÇÿorbital bombardmentGÇÖ was, wherever possible limited to valid military targets. The rest, being myth, propaganda, and lies.
I remember when you were a silver-tongued rogue who danced the razor's edge between lies and misinformation, a flashing rapier of wit and an ironic grin.
I don't know what that was supposed to be...
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1738
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 05:31:43 -
[261] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I remember when you were a silver-tongued rogue who danced the razor's edge between lies and misinformation, a flashing rapier of wit and an ironic grin.
I don't know what that was supposed to be... Oh, dear. I have disappointed you.
Knowing me as you once did, I think you understand exactly what 'that' was supposed to be.
Some, not meaning you specifically my once and would be friend, seem to be coming late to the understand that I no longer care if I am liked or respected by those who mean me or mine terminal intent.
Just as the State and its minions use peace as a weapon, so do they use 'our' expected impulse to be considered fair, just and well respected. No more.
Now, just to put a nail in it, by making the dumbest of blunders, an open boast from dear old James.
I have found the weak link, granted it took me long enough but in the end, it was laughably obvious. Yes, I have nibbled true, but now something different.
Wait and watch act and do, it wonGÇÖt matter. The scales will be balanced. But from now until then, perhaps silence will serve...
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3808
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 08:33:33 -
[262] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Oh, dear. I have disappointed you. Not just him.
Quote:Now, just to put a nail in it, by making the dumbest of blunders, an open boast from dear old James.
I have found the weak link, granted it took me long enough but in the end, it was laughably obvious. Yes, I have nibbled true, but now something different.
Wait and watch act and do, it wonGÇÖt matter. The scales will be balanced. But from now until then, perhaps silence will serve... The idle threats thread is over there. Seriously. There is one, now. |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
874
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 09:30:38 -
[263] - Quote
And there the usual people fall for the bait, as expected, even when they're told that it is bait.
Even so, the article does have a point in a way despite being generally trash - that certain Caldari celebrate the intentional murder of millions of non-combatants as a heroic act beyond compare, having even based the Chimera on the Kairiola as a rather perverted memento, and personally, I find it disgusting. While I can understand why they think so highly of those who did such things, I don't approve of the cults built around them. Last I checked, most Gallente who aren't loudmouth nationalists (and capsuleers) aren't proud of the Caldari-Gallente war or events that lead up to it, but they just have to live with that stain on their collective history. On more recent issues, when the FNS Wandering Saint hit the Ishukone Headquarters, most Gallente were just as heartbroken and mortified as the Caldari were. They did not start celebrating in the streets, because in their hearts everyone must have known what could have followed after that, and, in fact later did.
I hope that the Caldari capsuleers I've had the displeasure to meet here are not representative of the whole of the State, just like I don't consider most Gallente capsuleers shining specimens of the Federation either. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
189
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 12:01:33 -
[264] - Quote
War is serious business you know, you have to kill people in the proper way. Tovil-Toba didn-¦t kill people the proper way. Tovil-Toba was a terrorist. Our killing is proper, can-¦t stand people that doesn-¦t kill like we kill
Nice article on the kill styles of the past. I-¦m sure there are a lot of new fascinating ways and whole different schools of killings today.
So Avant-garde. Looking foward for more examples on how to kill properly and a genealogy of the killing styles.
Join Project Transcendence.
Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3535
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 12:30:54 -
[265] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:War is serious business you know, you have to kill people in the proper way. Tovil-Toba didn-¦t kill people the proper way. Tovil-Toba was a terrorist. Our killing is proper, can-¦t stand people that doesn-¦t kill like we kill
Are you really daft enough that you don't understand the idea that humanity, with the notable exception of a few sects of barbarian savages, really does agree that indiscriminate bloodshed is bad, and civilians should be shielded from the worst aspects of violent conflict?
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
874
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 12:41:34 -
[266] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:War is serious business you know, you have to kill people in the proper way. Tovil-Toba didn-¦t kill people the proper way. Tovil-Toba was a terrorist. Our killing is proper, can-¦t stand people that doesn-¦t kill like we kill
He did kill people the "proper way", but his very last act was that of (literally) unapologetic terrorism. Because that's what directing war against civilian targets is. The largest "victories" Caldari ever claimed were against unarmed civilians. And that is what almost every prominent Caldari capsuleer here loves to celebrate. I don't know many non-caldari civilians, since I rarely do business in their space so I do not know if they share this sentiment in a larger scale, but I hope not.
And despite all that, you know what the Gallente did? They blamed their own then-fascist government, not the Caldari. To me it speaks volumes that the Gallente at the time saw a terrible war crime against them and turned it into a source of change and fuel for a peace movement and displacing the U-Nats. Making something good out of something terrible is something I can respect and I wish others would too.
I've said it before, Gallente are far from perfect, but at least they have the tendency to own up to their mistakes, and even try to do better in the future, which is to me an example to follow for the rest of the three major powers. Instead the State, Empire and Republic love nothing more than to dwell on the past injustices, forever picking a festering wounds, never allowing them to heal.
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
189
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 12:41:59 -
[267] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Are you really daft enough that you don't understand the idea that humanity, with the notable exception of a few sects of barbarian savages, really does agree that indiscriminate bloodshed is bad, and civilians should be shielded from the worst aspects of violent conflict?
Oh, it-¦s not about how, it-¦s about who gets killed? (What one word in the wrong place can-¦t do!) Sound a lot like ancient cultures that made live sacrifices of selected members of it-¦s population for ancient gods. Not that we do it now, we-¦re... what was the word? Civilized
Join Project Transcendence.
Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
874
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 12:46:31 -
[268] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Oh, it-¦s not about how, it-¦s about who gets killed? (What one word in the wrong place can-¦t do!) Sound a lot like ancient cultures that made live sacrifices of selected members of it-¦s population for ancient gods. Not that we do it now, we-¦re... what was the word? Civilized
If I hadn't just made the point about dwelling on past injustices, I'd remind you that the Caldari beheaded people for not taking off their shoes in a temple somewhere around just 300 years ago. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
189
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 12:54:29 -
[269] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Oh, it-¦s not about how, it-¦s about who gets killed? (What one word in the wrong place can-¦t do!) Sound a lot like ancient cultures that made live sacrifices of selected members of it-¦s population for ancient gods. Not that we do it now, we-¦re... what was the word? Civilized
If I hadn't just made the point about dwelling on past injustices, I'd remind you that the Caldari beheaded people for not taking off their shoes in a temple somewhere around just 300 years ago.
Neither How nor Who, it-¦s about Why then?
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
875
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 13:06:16 -
[270] - Quote
None of those, I made the mistake of giving attention to your deflection of the issue, since you have no actual way of twisting the issue to your personal benefit, that is your only recourse. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 13:07:05 -
[271] - Quote
You're really overgeneralizing here, you know.
1. Humanity generally agrees that killing other humans is wrong, in the abstract sense. It's an outgrowth of hardwired empathy (except in the case of sociopaths) and self-interest.
2. Humanity also generally agrees that someone might still try to kill you. If someone tries to kill you, or you see someone trying to kill someone else, you should stop them, and it's regrettable, but ok, if you have to kill them to do it.
3. Humans, in aggregate, have agendas that benefit the group.
4. Groups can have agendas that conflict with the agendas of other groups.
5. Most of humanity (again, there are sociopaths and barbarian savages out there) agrees that when conflict arises, these groups should attempt to resolve these conflicts in mutually-beneficial ways. One of the most basic benefits available is 'nobody in my group ends up dead'.
6. Everyone (except again, some specific sects of barbarian savages who may or may not be sociopaths) agrees that nobody is perfect. Everyone screws up sometimes, and unfortunately, those screw-ups don't always happen in isolation.
7. As a result of the combination of (1), (2), (4), (5), and (6), big enough groups tend to maintain sub-sections of the group whose job is to protect the lives of members of the group. These sub-sections also serve as a deterrent against (6) in another group. 7a. It is generally understood that membership in these sub-sections includes a willingness to place (2) and (3) above one's personal self-interest in not dying.
8. (4) + (6) happens. (7) isn't always enough of a deterrent. We call this 'war'. 8a. Sometimes, the (4) that causes (8) isn't even about (6), it's about (2). Because even though (2), there's always those savage barbarian sociopaths.
9. Given (1) and (5), it's generally acknowledged that (8) is a (6), and that in the big picture, nobody really wants it, but that it happens anyway.
10. As a result of the general agreement on (9), (1), and (2), when (8) happens, there are rules that generally intend to limit the loss of life to (7), who accept this risk as indicated in (7a).
So, yes, even when war breaks out, human society overall (barbarian savage sociopaths potentially excepted) generally agrees that there are restrictions on who dies. Military service, like law enforcement, is in many ways a "sin-eater" position: when society screws up, you pay for it.
But you do once again seem to be horribly misusing 'civilized' to mean something like 'polite' or 'peaceful', when that's not really what the word means, it's just connotations people with overly facile misunderstandings of society and human nature have ladled onto it in an attempt to convince themselves 'oh, no, we're much better than that'.
We're not. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7570
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 15:07:43 -
[272] - Quote
I really need to explain why Tovil-Toba is a hero and Noir is a villain? Do people still not get the difference between what the two of them did?
Tovil-Toba's sacrifice came at the end of a brilliant military campaign which broke the blockade of a world that was being bombarded from orbit. This blockade was targeting and destroying ships packed full of refugees as they attempted to flee the planet. After weeks of battles he had lost all his escort ships and fighters and his command ship was crippled in orbit around Gallente Prime.
He sent all non-essential personnel from the ship and took it into the atmosphere. He had no control over where the parts of the Kairiola would go as it broke up, all he knew was that SOME part of Gallente Prime would know what it was like to receive death from the skies. As it happens, parts of the ship's corpse struck a major city.
Noir rammed an orbital hosting a summit which was supposed to prevent bloodshed. There was no war. Noir rescued nobody. Noir's ship wasn't attacked and it certainly wasn't crippled. Noir deliberately aimed at a civilian target and rammed it while his ship was still under his control.
And while we're at it, let's discuss what happened next...
YES, the damage to the city of Hueromont led to the recall and impeachment of the U-Nat government. But it wasn't because the Gallente people realised the horror of what that government had done in their name, it was because the U-Nats had promised a short, victorious war - and had failed to deliver it. The Gallente were appalled and furious that their vaunted Navy and Government had been unable to protect them from the consequences of their attack on Caldari Prime and THAT is why they swept the U-Nat government from office and imprisoned the leaders who allowed it to happen.
The breach of the blockade. The fall of the U-Nats. These things only happened because of the actions of Tovil-Toba and his sacrifice was necessary for the Caldari to establish the State.
Noir's actions, on the other hand, simply empowered a dictator to reignite the war between our people. That's Alexander Noir's legacy. Nobody will name their sons for him. His actions will remain an enigma.
Tovil-Toba's name shines on.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 15:22:53 -
[273] - Quote
I really need to explain the difference between Noir and Tovil-Toba? Noir isn't universally lauded as a hero for what he did. Tovil-Toba is.
For ***** sake Pieter. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3811
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 15:28:03 -
[274] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:If I hadn't just made the point about dwelling on past injustices, I'd remind you that the Caldari beheaded people for not taking off their shoes in a temple somewhere around just 300 years ago.
If this is cross-referencing my remarks about taking off shoes in temples with getting your head snikked off if you upset the nobility, Ms. Teinyhr ... uh ...
First, that was the iron age Achura, not the Caldari; three hundred years ago the Caldari were in the Federation.
Second, monks have never really had the privilege of snikking your head off. I suppose some passing and very religious aristocrat might have taken offense to someone tracking debris into a sacred space, but then they could kind of take offense to kind of whatever. It's the Caldari who kind of Uplifted the old aristocracy out of existence, and, really, good riddance. Some of their practices were, well, pretty awful.
Seems you don't build a united global empire with iron age technology by being nice. |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
876
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 15:42:16 -
[275] - Quote
Apologies, my dates were way off, that is what you get when you don't double-check things and trust your brain to handle things responsibly. It was almost 700 years ago, entered in to Gallentean history archives as what happened one person called Sebastienne Po-Lana. And it wasn't a temple, but a Raata shrine. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3813
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 15:51:41 -
[276] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:Apologies, my dates were way off, that is what you get when you don't double-check things and trust your brain to handle things responsibly. It was almost 700 years ago, entered in to Gallentean history archives as what happened one person called Sebastienne Po-Lana. And it wasn't a temple, but a Raata shrine. Oh! Okay.
Yeah, the Caldari are a lot of stuff, but they're normally at least a little bit hard-edged. The traditional definition of strength includes doing stuff like throwing Grandpa out into the snow when food runs low. Snikking someone's head off for disrespecting the Winds and/or Ancestors might run in a similar vein. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 15:55:06 -
[277] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: The traditional definition of strength includes doing stuff like throwing Grandpa out into the snow when food runs low.
Which, let's face it, is just silly.
You chop grandpa up and feed him to the pigs.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3813
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 16:03:42 -
[278] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:The traditional definition of strength includes doing stuff like throwing Grandpa out into the snow when food runs low. Which, let's face it, is just silly. You chop grandpa up and feed him to the pigs. Uh. Heh. Well.
... yeah, just, really no.
I don't think anybody shows their respect for their ancestors by passing them through a hog.
(Do they?) |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 16:07:49 -
[279] - Quote
I dunno if they do but in harsh survival conditions, they should. After all, eating Grandpa yourself is just taboo and nasty, right? But pigs... pigs are one of the few animals that have absolutely no compuction eating dead people. Like, even more predators don't like the way we taste. Pigs though, they don't care. You're food.
And hey, if food's tight, that's just one less meal you need to feed the pigs! (and after all, you need to keep some of the pigs alive so they can make more pigs for when the worst of the winter breaks, right?) |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
80
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 16:15:52 -
[280] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: The traditional definition of strength includes doing stuff like throwing Grandpa out into the snow when food runs low.
The way I read ancient Caldari tradition, Grandpa would actually walk out to die in the cold voluntarily, using his sacrifice to petition the Cold Wind spirit to spare his family.
Tovil-Toba's act can actually be seen in the same light. It was the act of a desperate man during a desperate time. What makes his act so objectionable in the eyes of many is its gratuitousness. He had already achieved his objective, the blockade had been broken. His suicide dive just served as an act of retribution so that "SOME part of Gallente Prime would know what it was like to receive death from the skies" as Pieter Tuulinen put it.
Compare that to the actions of Admiral Visera Yanala who refused to indiscriminately bombard a planet and laid down her life. Her sacrifice paved the way for the ousting of Tibus Heth and it was so strong as a statement that even warmongers like Jacus Roden and Mentas Blaque had no chance but to accept a peaceful settlement of the Caldari Prime crisis. |
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
877
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 16:21:56 -
[281] - Quote
YES! Thank you. You put what I was thinking into words better than I could. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3814
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 16:32:39 -
[282] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote: The traditional definition of strength includes doing stuff like throwing Grandpa out into the snow when food runs low. The way I read ancient Caldari tradition, Grandpa would actually walk out to die in the cold voluntarily, using his sacrifice to petition the Cold Wind spirit to spare his family. Tovil-Toba's act can actually be seen in the same light. It was the act of a desperate man during a desperate time. What makes his act so objectionable in the eyes of many is its gratuitousness. He had already achieved his objective, the blockade had been broken. His suicide dive just served as an act of retribution so that "SOME part of Gallente Prime would know what it was like to receive death from the skies" as Pieter Tuulinen put it. Compare that to the actions of Admiral Visera Yanala who refused to indiscriminately bombard a planet and laid down her life. Her sacrifice paved the way for the ousting of Tibus Heth and it was so strong as a statement that even warmongers like Jacus Roden and Mentas Blaque had no chance but to accept a peaceful settlement of the Caldari Prime crisis.
See, it'd be really convenient if Grandpa always did what was expected and voluntarily walked out to join his ancestors. That's not always the way it worked, except in maybe the most romantic of historical retellings. Grandpa might be in his second childhood, or bitter and estranged (better make those funerary offerings in spring if you don't want a haunting!), or just scared.
The Caldari broadly don't see Tovil-Toba's sacrifice as gratuitous, Mr. Raimo, or merely vengeful. It caused chaos; the political fallout toppled the ultra-right wing faction that had taken control of the Federation, if I remember right.
It didn't end the war. But it did fundamentally alter who the war was with, and what it was over-- and bought the Caldari probably a good bit of time while the Federation regrouped.
To the Caldari generally, Tovil-Toba's sacrifice and Yanala's are of a piece: both sacrificed their lives for the good of the Caldari State and its people. |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
83
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 16:38:51 -
[283] - Quote
... and this exchange shows beautifully how the same action can be interpreted in entirely different ways.
Al that is left for us who inherited the world formed by such actions and their interpretations is to gather as much wisdom from this legacy as we possibly can. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3814
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 16:57:36 -
[284] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:... and this exchange shows beautifully how the same action can be interpreted in entirely different ways.
Al that is left for us who inherited the world formed by such actions and their interpretations is to gather as much wisdom from this legacy as we possibly can.
True. But ... uh. I hope you'll forgive me for pressing a point.
This conclusion that you've come to, that interpretations differ and all that's left is for succeeding generations to learn what they can: it's one I and probably the Caldari generally can agree with. The Caldari see things their own way. They don't insist that their way of seeing things is right or proper for anyone else. Interpretations differ, and they're fine with that.
... Is this view one that's widespread in the Federation? |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
189
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 17:50:40 -
[285] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:None of those, I made the mistake of giving attention to your deflection of the issue, since you have no actual way of twisting the issue to your personal benefit, that is your only recourse.
I have no agenda nor benefit from this issue. I was just interested in understanding what is a valid reason to kill from your perspective.
Arrendis wrote:You're really overgeneralizing here, you know.
1. Humanity generally agrees that killing other humans is wrong, in the abstract sense. It's an outgrowth of hardwired empathy (except in the case of sociopaths) and self-interest.
2. Humanity also generally agrees that someone might still try to kill you. If someone tries to kill you, or you see someone trying to kill someone else, you should stop them, and it's regrettable, but ok, if you have to kill them to do it.
3. Humans, in aggregate, have agendas that benefit the group.
4. Groups can have agendas that conflict with the agendas of other groups.
5. Most of humanity (again, there are sociopaths and barbarian savages out there) agrees that when conflict arises, these groups should attempt to resolve these conflicts in mutually-beneficial ways. One of the most basic benefits available is 'nobody in my group ends up dead'.
6. Everyone (except again, some specific sects of barbarian savages who may or may not be sociopaths) agrees that nobody is perfect. Everyone screws up sometimes, and unfortunately, those screw-ups don't always happen in isolation.
7. As a result of the combination of (1), (2), (4), (5), and (6), big enough groups tend to maintain sub-sections of the group whose job is to protect the lives of members of the group. These sub-sections also serve as a deterrent against (6) in another group. 7a. It is generally understood that membership in these sub-sections includes a willingness to place (2) and (3) above one's personal self-interest in not dying.
8. (4) + (6) happens. (7) isn't always enough of a deterrent. We call this 'war'. 8a. Sometimes, the (4) that causes (8) isn't even about (6), it's about (2). Because even though (2), there's always those savage barbarian sociopaths.
9. Given (1) and (5), it's generally acknowledged that (8) is a (6), and that in the big picture, nobody really wants it, but that it happens anyway.
10. As a result of the general agreement on (9), (1), and (2), when (8) happens, there are rules that generally intend to limit the loss of life to (7), who accept this risk as indicated in (7a).
So, yes, even when war breaks out, human society overall (barbarian savage sociopaths potentially excepted) generally agrees that there are restrictions on who dies. Military service, like law enforcement, is in many ways a "sin-eater" position: when society screws up, you pay for it.
But you do once again seem to be horribly misusing 'civilized' to mean something like 'polite' or 'peaceful', when that's not really what the word means, it's just connotations people with overly facile misunderstandings of society and human nature have ladled onto it in an attempt to convince themselves 'oh, no, we're much better than that'.
We're not.
That-¦s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don-¦t practice. So it-¦s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.
People do what they do, i-¦m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.
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Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
83
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 18:30:35 -
[286] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:The Caldari see things their own way. They don't insist that their way of seeing things is right or proper for anyone else. Interpretations differ, and they're fine with that.
... Is this view one that's widespread in the Federation?
The federation is in its essence a great experiment which has at its foundation the goal to build a multicultural and multi-ethnic society based on a rough consensus. Ideally many different views are widespread in such a society. If your question was meant to ask whether this is the current political mainstream, then the answer is sadly no. Too much political capital can easily be gained by keeping alive the spectre of a unified threat posed by the Caldari.
In reality, most Caldari are literally minding their own business. As an officer active in the border zone, my impression is that the only belligerents are desperate extremists who can at best be considered fringe elements of Caldari society.
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
877
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 19:20:44 -
[287] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:I have no agenda nor benefit from this issue. I was just interested in understanding what is a valid reason to kill from your perspective.
Well then, all you had to do was ask, not speak in sarcastic riddles.
When talking about a war situation, theoretically any reason is a valid reason to kill. However, atrocities typically beget other atrocities in an escalating rhythm, so in "civilized warfare" intentionally targeting civilian population centers is, mildly put, kind of a **** move and will only work against yourself in the long run. In an effort to not cause a mutual extinction event, sufficiently advanced civilizations should endeavour to have some kind of ethics in warfare, like not intentionally targeting medical personnel, not summarily executing enemies that have surrendered and so on.
If you asked my personal opinion in less broad circumstances, then a valid reason kill is always as a last resort in order to protect someone else or yourself. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
190
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 19:30:00 -
[288] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:I have no agenda nor benefit from this issue. I was just interested in understanding what is a valid reason to kill from your perspective. Well then, all you had to do was ask, not speak in sarcastic riddles. When talking about a war situation, theoretically any reason is a valid reason to kill. However, atrocities typically beget other atrocities in an escalating rhythm, so in "civilized warfare" intentionally targeting civilian population centers is, mildly put, kind of a **** move and will only work against yourself in the long run. In an effort to not cause a mutual extinction event, sufficiently advanced civilizations should endeavour to have some kind of ethics in warfare, like not intentionally targeting medical personnel, not summarily executing enemies that have surrendered and so on. If you asked my personal opinion in less broad circumstances, then a valid reason kill is always as a last resort in order to protect someone else or yourself.
It is an.ancient method of deconstructing a subject in layers to get to the core of a reasoning process. People dont usually like to admit their premises, so its a good process to get to it with an active participation of reason instead of automated responses.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3546
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 20:00:26 -
[289] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:That-¦s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don-¦t practice. So it-¦s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.
People do what they do, i-¦m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.
Out of idle curiosity, which points do you think are rationalizations? You said 'every' point after (1) is a rationalization, so:
Do you think 'killing is bad, but killing to stop someone from killing is less bad' is a rationalization? Do you think groups of humans don't have aggregate agendas? Do you think different groups can't have conflicting agendas? Do you think there is not broad agreement that it's better to resolve conflicts without killing everyone? Do you think there is not broad agreement that people are imperfect?
How are each of these rationalizations? Additionally: which of those statements do you think people do not practice? (ie: (2) - do you believe people do not, in fact, put the belief that killing in self-defense or the defense of another is less objectionable than killing out of hand, into practice? If you believe they don't, how do you explain the legal availability of 'Self Defense' defenses in criminal prosecution?)
Also, as each of these is a relatively straightforward point, building on the previous points, what 'mental contortions' do you think are in evidence, and what do you think isn't being admitted?
We'll just start with those 5, we can get the other 4 (or 6, if we include 7a and 8a) after.
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
190
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 20:06:35 -
[290] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:That-¦s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don-¦t practice. So it-¦s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.
People do what they do, i-¦m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.
Out of idle curiosity, which points do you think are rationalizations? You said 'every' point after (1) is a rationalization, so: Do you think 'killing is bad, but killing to stop someone from killing is less bad' is a rationalization? Do you think groups of humans don't have aggregate agendas? Do you think different groups can't have conflicting agendas? Do you think there is not broad agreement that it's better to resolve conflicts without killing everyone? Do you think there is not broad agreement that people are imperfect? How are each of these rationalizations? Additionally: which of those statements do you think people do not practice? (ie: (2) - do you believe people do not, in fact, put the belief that killing in self-defense or the defense of another is less objectionable than killing out of hand, into practice? If you believe they don't, how do you explain the legal availability of 'Self Defense' defenses in criminal prosecution?) Also, as each of these is a relatively straightforward point, building on the previous points, what 'mental contortions' do you think are in evidence, and what do you think isn't being admitted? We'll just start with those 5, we can get the other 4 (or 6, if we include 7a and 8a) after.
Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context.
Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3546
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 20:58:00 -
[291] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context.
Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise.
I didn't ask about right or wrong.
You claimed every point after (1) was rationalizations. I'm asking you to explain your assertion. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
190
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 21:32:40 -
[292] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context.
Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise. I didn't ask about right or wrong. You claimed every point after (1) was rationalizations. I'm asking you to explain your assertion.
"In sociology, rationalization or rationalisation refers to the replacement of traditions, values, and emotions as motivators for behavior in society with rational, calculated ones. For example, the implementation of bureaucracies in government is a kind of rationalization, as is the construction of high-efficiency living spaces in architecture and urban planning."
You erected a pile of sequential arguments, incrementing them logically step after step to explain a shared set of values that regulate the "permission" of killing and limiting it to a pre-set conditioned scenarios.
You created an artificial context to say "on this case is right, on that case is not" and beautifully put forth a set of rules and chain of events to explain why your beliefs hold.
This, by said definition, is a rationalization.
Nothing against your preffered fairytale however. Is as good as any.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 21:57:23 -
[293] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: "In sociology, rationalization or rationalisation refers to the replacement of traditions, values, and emotions as motivators for behavior in society with rational, calculated ones. For example, the implementation of bureaucracies in government is a kind of rationalization, as is the construction of high-efficiency living spaces in architecture and urban planning."
This refers to the process of rationalization of belief systems, not to individual statements as rationalizations, which is more commonly "broadly : to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for"
Which, from the context of your earlier statement, is clearly the meaning when you say "So it-¦s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it,"
Which, incidentally, also contains an implied value judgment inherent in the clause beginning with 'just'.
As with your repeated uses of 'civilization', I'm noticing a distinct trend where you seem to like to use ambiguities in your word choice to try to leave yourself room to make claims later that aren't supported by the initial context. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
190
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 22:04:09 -
[294] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: "In sociology, rationalization or rationalisation refers to the replacement of traditions, values, and emotions as motivators for behavior in society with rational, calculated ones. For example, the implementation of bureaucracies in government is a kind of rationalization, as is the construction of high-efficiency living spaces in architecture and urban planning."
This refers to the process of rationalization of belief systems, not to individual statements as rationalizations, which is more commonly "broadly : to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for" Which, from the context of your earlier statement, is clearly the meaning when you say "So it-¦s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it," Which, incidentally, also contains an implied value judgment inherent in the clause beginning with 'just'. As with your repeated uses of 'civilization', I'm noticing a distinct trend where you seem to like to use ambiguities in your word choice to try to leave yourself room to make claims later that aren't supported by the initial context.
Sure, whatever suits you sassy lady.
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Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
884
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 07:50:03 -
[295] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:Gallente are far from perfect, but at least they have the tendency to own up to their mistakes, and even try to do better in the future [...] Would that they succeed at it more often, though.
Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
879
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 08:04:46 -
[296] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Teinyhr wrote:Gallente are far from perfect, but at least they have the tendency to own up to their mistakes, and even try to do better in the future [...] Would that they succeed at it more often, though.
They have. And at least try, which is more than most do, who just prefer banging their head on the wall and crying how evil the wall is for not budging. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7575
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 15:21:55 -
[297] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:Jev North wrote:Teinyhr wrote:Gallente are far from perfect, but at least they have the tendency to own up to their mistakes, and even try to do better in the future [...] Would that they succeed at it more often, though. They have. And at least try, which is more than most do, who just prefer banging their head on the wall and crying how evil the wall is for not budging.
I feel like one's mileage may vary, here.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
881
|
Posted - 2017.05.12 15:40:14 -
[298] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I feel like one's mileage may vary, here.
Certainly you are entitled to feel that way. I'm just defending everyone's rights to be nationalistic assholes. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
448
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 01:41:22 -
[299] - Quote
New on the Federal Frontier, an article on Proper Government in the Capsuleer Age. Perhaps some here have an interesting take on Capsuleer organization and leadership?
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
923
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 04:04:39 -
[300] - Quote
Pandemic Legion is probably the only true meritocracy in an alliance or organization of its size. There is some democracy in the construction of doctrines or decisions regarding deployment and some autocracy in settling disputes or enforcing policy.
Overwhelmingly though, those who put in the work and are known to have the skill are given all of the power. It can seem extremely chaotic but our culture and flexibility are without a doubt extremely important to our success. My short explanation does not do the system or culture justice though.
As strength goes.
|
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
448
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 04:48:17 -
[301] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Pandemic Legion is probably the only true meritocracy in an alliance or organization of its size. There is some democracy in the construction of doctrines or decisions regarding deployment and some autocracy in settling disputes or enforcing policy.
Overwhelmingly though, those who put in the work and are known to have the skill are given all of the power. It can seem extremely chaotic but our culture and flexibility are without a doubt extremely important to our success. My short explanation does not do the system or culture justice though.
I would be interested in hearing a more thorough discussion on this at some point, perhaps on your own media venue? Could spur some discussion.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
923
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 05:25:18 -
[302] - Quote
You cannot see me laughing but, Julianus, I do not have my own "media venue."
...Do I seem like someone who has a media venue?
You should talk to Grath or someone who has been in PL for a decade if you want something more thorough.
As strength goes.
|
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
448
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 05:33:38 -
[303] - Quote
Well, whichever venue you choose, I suppose then, Ayallah. *chuckles*.
But yes, it would be interesting to get a viewpoint from several nullsec alliances on this issue.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3608
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 12:19:56 -
[304] - Quote
Looking for 'the' answer will only give you wrong ones. For all our perceived power, capsuleers are still fundamentally human in the way our minds work. Even the oldest of us still function in basically the same way as everyone else. We have a bit more agency and mobility (in terms of being able to pick up and relocate when we feel a need for a change) than some, and we have our share of sociopaths, but by and large, in the ways we congregate, organize, and work together, we're just people.
And that means that different solutions work at different scales. What can work for a small group of 10-100 of us wouldn't necessarily work for a medium-sized organization like Pandemic Legion (since they've been volunteered by one of their members as an example). And PL's very loose organizational style isn't really sustainable at much more than their current sizeGÇöwhich they've been at or about for some time now. That's why organizations like Waffles and Pandemic Horde exist; the larger 'PanFam' isn't nearly the pure meritocracy that Pandemic Legion is... because it really can't be.
Don't take that as any kind of insult, either. Pandemic Legion is very good at what they do, and I'm not sure many other groups in New Eden could pull off that decentralized organizational chart, even at the same size. Which is another difficulty in assessing the effectiveness of different organizational structures for capsuleers: the same structure that works well for one group of 5,000 eggers won't always work for another. Culture matters. The way people interact, the expectations that they have and the things that are expected of them... those all contribute.
So the chances of finding 'the' answer is kind of like the chances of finding 'the' definitive answer to 'which spiritual framework in New Eden is right?'
There is no one answer. There's only the answer that works for your group, right now. |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
84
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 16:21:37 -
[305] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:perhaps on your own media venue?
You mean on Crossing Zebras? I have heard it said that this outlet is firmly in hands of Pandemic Legion capsuleers and their sympathisers
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3837
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 16:45:02 -
[306] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Looking for 'the' answer will only give you wrong ones. For all our perceived power, capsuleers are still fundamentally human in the way our minds work. Even the oldest of us still function in basically the same way as everyone else. We have a bit more agency and mobility (in terms of being able to pick up and relocate when we feel a need for a change) than some, and we have our share of sociopaths, but by and large, in the ways we congregate, organize, and work together, we're just people.
And that means that different solutions work at different scales. What can work for a small group of 10-100 of us wouldn't necessarily work for a medium-sized organization like Pandemic Legion (since they've been volunteered by one of their members as an example). And PL's very loose organizational style isn't really sustainable at much more than their current sizeGÇöwhich they've been at or about for some time now. That's why organizations like Waffles and Pandemic Horde exist; the larger 'PanFam' isn't nearly the pure meritocracy that Pandemic Legion is... because it really can't be.
Don't take that as any kind of insult, either. Pandemic Legion is very good at what they do, and I'm not sure many other groups in New Eden could pull off that decentralized organizational chart, even at the same size. Which is another difficulty in assessing the effectiveness of different organizational structures for capsuleers: the same structure that works well for one group of 5,000 eggers won't always work for another. Culture matters. The way people interact, the expectations that they have and the things that are expected of them... those all contribute.
So the chances of finding 'the' answer is kind of like the chances of finding 'the' definitive answer to 'which spiritual framework in New Eden is right?'
There is no one answer. There's only the answer that works for your group, right now.
Agreed.
For me, a big part of these questions on the civilization level is what will stand the test of time. Any society can prosper for a while under a single philosopher king, but beware the heir, or the creep of arrogance leading to a profound failure. PL's system is neat, but also seems unstable-- it's maybe too dependent on the individual personalities and perspectives running it at any given moment to last for more than a few decades.
That's maybe not such a problem as long as we remain servants to larger societies, but it'll be a REAL issue if we ever wind up (gods forbid) with a, uh, "podocracy."
("Eggocracy?" "Capsulecracy?")
("Apolcalyptocracy?"-- humanity effectively ruled by the tides of ceaseless war in the heavens as everything tilts towards collapse?)
("Kakitocracy?" We make lovely weapons, but I don't think we'd make good leaders for humanity at all. Looking forward to someone demonstrating otherwise somehow, though.) |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
923
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 17:35:14 -
[307] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:PL's very loose organizational style isn't really sustainable at much more than their current sizeGÇöwhich they've been at or about for some time now I agree with everything you said, for sure Waffles and Horde use a more rigid director-focused style even though they still use some aspects of the meritocracy to an extent.
Only correction is that The Legion stays at or around 2500 to ensure an active, competent force. The leadership manner may be able sustain a greater number but the individual pilot skill will begin to break down. I am not sure there has ever been a test to see how far such a meritocracy will work effectively but I am sure that it goes quickly if the pilots are not good enough to contribute.
Aria Jenneth wrote:For me, a big part of these questions on the civilization level is what will stand the test of time. Any society can prosper for a while under a single philosopher king, but beware the heir, or the creep of arrogance leading to a profound failure. PL's system is neat, but also seems unstable-- it's maybe too dependent on the individual personalities and perspectives running it at any given moment to last for more than a few decades. It does rely on people to run it yes, but so does every organization. Our culture ensures that the most active, competent, and willing people are always refreshing those positions. It is designed from the start to make it almost impossible for PL to grind to a halt or 'burn out.'
Just to point out, Pandemic Legion is one of the oldest and most stable alliances in New Eden. It has undergone very little leadership shakeup, almost no cultural shift, and our mission has always been the same. Even the goons with their incredibly famous management structure have undergone more organizational changes than we have. (They obviously have many many times the pilots and therefore needs.) PL leadership is never inactive and we never want for FC's or scouts or logistics pilots or people to build for us.
I understand the sentiment of capsuleer organizations and their impermanence but for certain PL has endured much and for as long as anyone and is undoubtedly still in great shape. We have watched a lot of groups die off, people leave, and PL remain the same so I am certain that we are among the most enduring.
As strength goes.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3839
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 18:13:41 -
[308] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:For me, a big part of these questions on the civilization level is what will stand the test of time. Any society can prosper for a while under a single philosopher king, but beware the heir, or the creep of arrogance leading to a profound failure. PL's system is neat, but also seems unstable-- it's maybe too dependent on the individual personalities and perspectives running it at any given moment to last for more than a few decades. It does rely on people to run it yes, but so does every organization. Our culture ensures that the most active, competent, and willing people are always refreshing those positions. It is designed from the start to make it almost impossible for PL to grind to a halt or 'burn out.' Just to point out, Pandemic Legion is one of the oldest and most stable alliances in New Eden. It has undergone very little leadership shakeup, almost no cultural shift, and our mission has always been the same. Even the goons with their incredibly famous management structure have undergone more organizational changes than we have. (They obviously have many many times the pilots and therefore needs.) PL leadership is never inactive and we never want for FC's or scouts or logistics pilots or people to build for us. I understand the sentiment of capsuleer organizations and their impermanence but for certain PL has endured much and for as long as anyone and is undoubtedly still in great shape. We have watched a lot of groups die off, people leave, and PL remain the same so I am certain that we are among the most enduring.
Well-- yes. And I'm not saying that it's not suitable for its purpose, Ms. Ayallah; it pretty clearly is.
What I'm making concerned noises over is the long-kinda-popular notion that we are, in some way, going to replace the empires-- that capsuleers are not merely weapons, but a class of incipient rulers.
PL's structure is great for a mercenary company: not a lot will suffer if it goes boom even in a pretty big way. If it became a large nation-state first, though.... |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1140
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 18:28:47 -
[309] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Arrendis wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:That-¦s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don-¦t practice. So it-¦s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.
People do what they do, i-¦m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.
Out of idle curiosity, which points do you think are rationalizations? You said 'every' point after (1) is a rationalization, so: Do you think 'killing is bad, but killing to stop someone from killing is less bad' is a rationalization? Do you think groups of humans don't have aggregate agendas? Do you think different groups can't have conflicting agendas? Do you think there is not broad agreement that it's better to resolve conflicts without killing everyone? Do you think there is not broad agreement that people are imperfect? How are each of these rationalizations? Additionally: which of those statements do you think people do not practice? (ie: (2) - do you believe people do not, in fact, put the belief that killing in self-defense or the defense of another is less objectionable than killing out of hand, into practice? If you believe they don't, how do you explain the legal availability of 'Self Defense' defenses in criminal prosecution?) Also, as each of these is a relatively straightforward point, building on the previous points, what 'mental contortions' do you think are in evidence, and what do you think isn't being admitted? We'll just start with those 5, we can get the other 4 (or 6, if we include 7a and 8a) after. Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context. Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise.
What a lazy response. Typical of lazy moral subjectivism though. You're only saying that (or thinking that) because you don't want to tackle the nitty gritty details of the morality of killing people. Understandable, because as Arrendis showed it's quite the gargantuan task to break down if you're doing it earnestly, but if you're going to be like that, don't also grandstand and laugh at other people's necessary inconsistencies as they endeavor to do something that you skipped because it was too complicated and easier to take the nihilistic shortcut. It just makes you look pretentious and unintelligent at the same time.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3839
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 18:40:30 -
[310] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:What a lazy response. Typical of lazy moral subjectivism though. You're only saying that (or thinking that) because you don't want to tackle the nitty gritty details of the morality of killing people. Understandable, because as Arrendis showed it's quite the gargantuan task to break down if you're doing it earnestly, but if you're going to be like that, don't also grandstand and laugh at other people's necessary inconsistencies as they endeavor to do something that you skipped because it was too complicated and easier to take the nihilistic shortcut. It just makes you look pretentious and unintelligent at the same time.
I agree, though she's not totally wrong. Death is kind of what we do. It's maybe not something to just be totally comfortable with just because "it's what we do," or "that's how it is," though.
Reality is as it is, but that by itself doesn't seem like it should give it moral weight in either direction. It might argue for a little caution in how vigorously we try to change it, though. Messing with stuff tends to make ripples. |
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
925
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 21:00:29 -
[311] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:What I'm making concerned noises over is the long-kinda-popular notion that we are, in some way, going to replace the empires-- that capsuleers are not merely weapons, but a class of incipient rulers.
PL's structure is great for a mercenary company: not a lot will suffer if it goes boom even in a pretty big way. If it became a large nation-state first, though.... That is the fantasy of other alliances. Pandemic Legion already holds as much sway and territory as it wants in New Eden and always has. Remember mobility, flexibility, and aggression are core to our manner of warfare. While we will take over territory, ...in fact maybe more than anyone in New Eden as we do so with NC., we almost universally hand it over afterwards and simply tax or dictate. PL does not have interest in governing or building things that are static.
Far better to have influence in governments than to build a government no? Shadow governments are much harder to destroy after all. Again, being an empire unto themselves is the dream of maybe the Imperium or other capsuleer alliances. What you are saying is akin to how poor a fish would do on the surface of a star. It is just not an ambition we have or ever intend to pursue beyond influence and control.
As strength goes.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3618
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 21:25:15 -
[312] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:Julianus Soter wrote:perhaps on your own media venue? You mean on Crossing Zebras? I have heard it said that this outlet is firmly in hands of Pandemic Legion capsuleers and their sympathisers
Only to the extent that it's operated by members. CZ is not a PL house organ. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3620
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 21:45:53 -
[313] - Quote
Ayallah wrote: Only correction is that The Legion stays at or around 2500 to ensure an active, competent force. The leadership manner may be able sustain a greater number but the individual pilot skill will begin to break down. I am not sure there has ever been a test to see how far such a meritocracy will work effectively but I am sure that it goes quickly if the pilots are not good enough to contribute.
I don't know if we're actually saying different things there, or just saying it differently. I think PL's leadership structure being effective relies, in some part, on maintaining that relatively lean, focused member-count. Get too many people who are just placeholders, or not active as combat polits, in effect, and you'll demoralize a fair number of the folks who want to excel. So you have members of PL using shell- and holding corps for their external activities, ascompared to say, Goonswarm, where someone like Gaara has a hundred or so miners working directly for him within the Alliance.
Quote:Even the goons with their incredibly famous management structure have undergone more organizational changes than we have. (They obviously have many many times the pilots and therefore needs.)
And therein lies the reason, too: size. As we've grown, we've had to experiment with different things. I don't think we'll ever stop trying new structures and new approaches as we keep attempting to find the systems that best serve the needs of our membership.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3620
|
Posted - 2017.05.15 21:53:55 -
[314] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:That is the fantasy of other alliances. Pandemic Legion already holds as much sway and territory as it wants in New Eden and always has. Remember mobility, flexibility, and aggression are core to our manner of warfare. While we will take over territory, ...in fact maybe more than anyone in New Eden as we do so with NC., we almost universally hand it over afterwards and simply tax or dictate. PL does not have interest in governing or building things that are static.
Eh, I think you're being a little disingenuous there, Ayallah. The very fact that you're saying 'we'll take space, give it to other people, and make them pay taxes and dictate to them'.. that's governing. It's not good governance, but it's still governing, ruling. You just do it through holding alliances or let NC. handle the administrative workload.
Ruling from the shadows is still ruling, though.
And I think, Aria, anyone who things Capsuleers as a whole are a class of incipient rulers is overlooking one large fact:
Most capsuleers are much sheep-brained followers as the great masses of baseliners. They just sheeple along with bigger guns.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
926
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 02:00:25 -
[315] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: I don't know if we're actually saying different things there, or just saying it differently. I think PL's leadership structure being effective relies, in some part, on maintaining that relatively lean, focused member-count.
Yes, exactly.
However non-coms are no disallowed from being in the alliance as you suggest, it is more habit at this point. The important component is the combat pilots themselves, that is what is kept lean and pressed to be active and up-to-date. The combat pilots are what are looked at in monthly purges and audited regularly to ensure they conform to doctrine. One combat pilot being removed can have a whole wing of followers and attendants follow but the number of attendants is not important to anyone. We are very much bloated by these attendants, it is how you will see 100 members on grid but 2500 on DOTLAN. In those times every currently active combat pilot is almost guaranteed to be on grid.
A combat pilot can sponsor any number of non-coms if it is necessary but it it infrequently is. Keep in mind that a -10.0 ticker is a target as much as a shield, you do not really gain anything by moving an industrial wing into the alliance, it is easier to just keep your own organization intact and change access lists. Again, it is not disallowed to move them in if that is what you want.Arrendis wrote:Eh, I think you're being a little disingenuous there, Ayallah. The very fact that you're saying 'we'll take space, give it to other people, and make them pay taxes and dictate to them'.. that's governing. It's not good governance, but it's still governing, ruling. You just do it through holding alliances or let NC. handle the administrative workload.
Ruling from the shadows is still ruling, though. It is an important distinction. Also we take far, far, more territory than we keep. It has been a trend that we will take regions and sections of space and then hand almost all of it off and have nothing else to do with it. The section we decide to keep we appoint others to dictate and rule and simply collect taxes and enforce treaties. This is very different from almost any other Alliance because it is designed from the beginning to be impermanent and transient. We are not looking for a people to integrate into the Legion or to integrate with us. We are not looking to do more for a government than ensure it meets our goals unless there is some other reason for doing so. When we leave there is no train of civilians to follow, nothing like Saranen where people who grew up under Imperium rule still feel a loyalty to it and travel alongside.
We foster an environment we desire and then leave when we want and no one within that environment will be associated with us in any way afterward. We are not building an Empire as much as enforcing a rule. The people remain and they remain separate. Yes, the administrative workload is shifted, but also the cultures do not touch. Right now there are many ethnic Caldari in Tenal who serve aboard our structures but when we leave, very few will come with us if any.
My point is we deal with senators, legislators, governments, not people. We do not care what form that government takes, who elected those legislators or what the magistrates goals may be past where they serve our goals in the area for the duration. There is a reason the Phage is our symbol: We takeover existing structures and adapt them, we "infect a host" we do not grow an organism. Phage derives from older language meaning "To devour."
Pandemic Legion does not want to create a government, we want the governments that others have built to conform to our needs. Where it does not we destroy and where it does we re-enforce. Bribes and hostile takeovers, not elections. We harvest and create factories, the infrastructure we build is for our benefit. Not that we are not concerned with the needs of the conquered peoples, but only their actual needs in most cases. Anything else is usually the side project of a pilot within PL and not directed by the alliance. Human civil rights, standardized languages, culture, etc.. All outside the normal of what we care about. We are not liberators, we are conquerors. Liberation is a secondary effect, changes are a secondary effect and no government is a part of the Legion.
When it comes to the big four or the outer region powers it makes much more sense. We rent their infrastructure and conform to our own culture and standards. We hold influence over the governments, not the people. Protest against our occupation can be as common as it is not but it is not our problem unless it becomes our problem you know?
Hopefully this has made it more clear. We are a very poor example of an alliance that would create an empire of its own. We will however have people in yours.
As strength goes.
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
450
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 04:55:48 -
[316] - Quote
New, on the Federal Frontier: Foxholers Liberate Fortizar Containing Thousands of Slaves; GMVA Welcomed Back to FDU
A proud moment in my career as a capsuleer.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
450
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 19:15:20 -
[317] - Quote
Today on the Federal Frontier, Tarek Raimo investigates the corrupting influence of the SDII and Mentas Blaque.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3861
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 20:47:43 -
[318] - Quote
I actually really like this one. Usually the thing that worries me the most about the Federation is when it starts doing stuff that seems to undermine its own foundations.
Also, now I really want to visit the Crystal Boulevard and study its design as an armored bunker! |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
86
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 22:57:32 -
[319] - Quote
The military installation which is still down there should be decommissioned and the place turned into a museum and memorial that reminds us how even the most well-intentioned societies can go astray.
To use a civilian tourist attraction and thriving business district as a "human shield" is deeply amoral and in contradiction with the Federation's ideals. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1751
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 23:04:02 -
[320] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:I actually really like this one. Usually the thing that worries me the most about the Federation is when it starts doing stuff that seems to undermine its own foundations. Also, now I really want to visit the Crystal Boulevard and study its design as an armored bunker! Yes, when your opponent actually tries to win it can be troubling.
But I agree, it was a well written if the wrong-headed article. The good people within the FIO make us safer day by day, despite occasional excesses.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
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Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
86
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 23:07:28 -
[321] - Quote
I would not dispute that there are professional and dedicated people within the FIO who want to serve the citizens of our nation. I just doubt that the highest decision-makers are a guarantee that they can do that. Instead I see a troubling trail of self-serving political manoeuvres. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1146
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 00:47:37 -
[322] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote: But I agree, it was a well written if the wrong-headed article. The good people within the FIO make us safer day by day, despite occasional excesses.
Hogwash.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3709
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 00:52:51 -
[323] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:Hogwash.
Sometimes, man, you just got a really dirty hog. |
Haru'kai Vidaraltyr
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 09:19:24 -
[324] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Jason Galente wrote:Hogwash. Sometimes, man, you just got a really dirty hog.
With your famed capacity for word-play, I am not sure if the levels of meaning in this quip were intended, but I suspect they were.
There is a significant difference between Karsoth and Blaque which grants both power and responsibility to the people and Senate of the Federation. We know Mentas Blaque's character. He is a 'really dirty hog'.
If, despite this knowledge, his activities overall bring benefit the the Federation, one can see why rolling in the mud with the hog might, for a time, be acceptable - mud protects delicate skin from the burning sun, for example. But (to labour the metaphor mercilessly) there comes a moment - fairly rapidly - when you either wash off your own mud and that of the hog, or discover that the hog has been enjoying this all the time and you are way too deep in the sh*t.
Hmm. I think I'd better leave this stuff to Arrendis.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
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Saint Michaels Soul
Moira. Villore Accords
35
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 11:04:43 -
[325] - Quote
New on the Federal Frontier https://thefederalfrontier.com/2017/05/19/intaki-the-case-for-independence/
Hungover and tetchy after the post-Kyonoke Inquest party, I had a chat* with political agitator Bataav of the Intaki Liberation Front who has some convincing arguments and frankly made me look at things in a new light.
*(tried to pick a fight with.) |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1754
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 20:09:37 -
[326] - Quote
Saint Michaels Soul wrote: Intaki Independence GÇô A chat with Bataav Another excellent if wrongheaded article.
Only in the Federation can one see such a diversity of opinion celebrated in 'print'.
Bataav wrote:To answer your question, a part of why I support independence for the Intaki is to prevent the Intaki culture being completely lost to a vague, all assimilating Federal identity that has no depth. Gods above, he is still at it. One must admire your persistence. GÇÿA Federal identityGǪGÇÖ IsnGÇÖt that the point of a multi-ethnic society? Leaving your insult to the GÇÿvagueness of our shallow cultureGÇÖ, aside. The Intaki are fully integrated into every level of the Federation. They have had as great an effect upon it, as it has upon them. I think you give too little credit to the resilience and charm of the very GÇÿIntake cultureGÇÖ your actions seek to limit. The Federation is strengthened by the Intaki, the Intaki are strengthened by the Federation.
Bataav wrote:ItGÇÖs important to understand that this isnGÇÖt ethnic nationalism. ItGÇÖs not some Gallente-hating movement. Not like Intaki Pure was, with their plan to kick out everyone whoGÇÖs not Intaki, and drag anyone who is, away from the lives they have built, back to Placid. So you wish to leave the Federation to save Intaki culture, but it isnGÇÖt an ethnic movement. Can both of those things be simultaneously true? Can you separate one from the other, the ethnicity from the culture? Perhaps what your purposing isnGÇÖt GÇÿGallente-hatingGÇÖ, but it is very much xenophobic and very 'un-Intaki'. Those GÇÿnon-IntakiGÇÖ who remain, I suppose will be expected to assimilate into your nonethnic Intakicentric society?
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
382
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Posted - 2017.05.20 04:29:40 -
[327] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Only in the Federation can one see such a diversity of opinion celebrated in 'print'. Nonsense.
Are you suggesting that the rich and varied tapestry of the Matari tribes, is not reflected in their media? That the nuances between the megacorporations have no impact on the news broadcasts of each within the State? That the Empire press is devoid of any theological debate and opinion?
James Syagrius wrote:GÇÿA Federal identityGǪGÇÖ IsnGÇÖt that the point of a multi-ethnic society? Not necessarily, no. Federalism is primarily a political system, though for the Gallente the term does now have cultural importance. However, both the Republic and State, for example, show us that multi-ethnic societies can succeed under different models.
James Syagrius wrote:So you wish to leave the Federation to save Intaki culture, but it isnGÇÖt an ethnic movement. Can both of those things be simultaneously true? Can you separate one from the other, the ethnicity from the culture? There are differences, yes. Allow me to explain.
We agree that the Federation is diverse. A Federal citizen who is of Matari Brutor heritage is racially distinct from another who is Jin-Mei, or Mannar. But race is only part of what constitutes ethnicity.
In contrast to groups that organise themselves by voluntary association, for example a Federal citizen or a capsuleer joining the ranks of a null-sec power bloc, ethnicity is defined by charactaristics that are either impossible to change, such as skin colour, or very difficult to change, such as primary language. A group of people sharing a characteristic that is impossible, or very difficult to change, will define themselves as ethnic in contrast to other ethnic groups, or a dominant group that does not identify itself in ethnic terms.
This idea of self identification is fluid, and can change over time and yes, as I acknowledged in the interview, there are many Intaki now identify as "Gallente", a label once claimed by some who self-identified as disctinct from the others they met as they began to spread across the stars.
Now dominant, the Gallente have found themselves content to set aside their ethnic label, which has since become so interchangeable with "Federal" to the point that some debate whether "Gallente" has any meaningful value any more.
If three indivuals of Intaki, or Khanid, or Vherokior heritage settle in the Federation, live as neighbours and call themselves "Gallente", then there are no common ethnic characteristics, there is no common language, no common history shared between them.
Federal culture is synonymous with personal freedom of expression and recreational excess, but these are not qualities that are comparible with the depth that exists within Amarr theology, Jin-Mei caste society, or Matari tribalism.
James Syagrius wrote:Leaving your insult to the GÇÿvagueness of our shallow cultureGÇÖ, aside. The Intaki are fully integrated into every level of the Federation. James, I empathise if the argument causes offense, but I find myself in agreement with a lot of the opening points made in the discussion I refer to above.
I cannot help but wonder if the discomfort felt is more a reaction to the cultural cost paid by the ethnic-Gallente in exchange for the Federal vision.
And finally yes, I acknowledge that at first glance it does seem paradoxical to say that we are not championing ethnic nationalism, while at the same time seeking to preserve Intaki culture.
However this is not the case. It is not ethnic nationalism because being Intaki is separate and distinct from the political movement. Those of us within the independence movement with Intaki heritage, such as myself, are proud of that, and yes we would seek to preserve that rather than lose it forever to Federal ambiguity. However, The Intaki Liberation Front is proud to include non-Intaki capsuleers and baseliners alike. Indeed our Isha-Sainika identifies as ethnic-Gallente.
There is no xenophobia here, nor is our position "un-Intaki".
Ida teaches us that life is a path, but we must each walk it ourselves.
We would simply seek to take a different route to that of the Gallente Federation, moving forwards with the understanding that any expectations of cultural assimilation are inappropriate.
Bataav
Mahesha | Intaki Liberation Front & Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
438
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Posted - 2017.05.20 11:11:15 -
[328] - Quote
There's no danger of Intaki culture being lost. You mentioned the Jin-Mei but it's obvious you don't actually know anything about them or how their cultural integrity is maintained. You mention the Matari but the way you express your concerns belittles the real experience of cultural destruction that the Matari have faced. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1757
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Posted - 2017.05.20 20:10:07 -
[329] - Quote
Bataav.
At first, I thought to answer your comments individually, but I think doing so would delude the purpose of this thread. You have indeed lived up to the title GÇÿThe secessionists silver tongued devilGÇÖ.
I know you, and I have been acquainted for some time. You know that I have more than a transitory interest in Intaki. Indeed, the same person who attempted to introduce me to the concepts of Ida was the same person who warned me of your cleverness to dissemble.
What you are purposing would diminish both the Federation and the Intaki. I understand your fear but disagree with your solution, yet I can respect you and your opinion, as I appreciate you respecting mine. So let me say if one day the GÇÿIntakiGÇÖ in whole or in part, choose to leave the Federal Union, within the structures established in treaty law, they will have no better confederate than myself.
You mentioned that the Gallente have subsumed their culture to promote a Federal identity. Of course, they have, one must give to gain, and goodness what 'we' have gained. I am Gallente. My father was Gallentean, my mother Amarrian, my wife Ni Kunni, my sonGǪ died being a Gallente. Many bloods, one ideal.
What you see as weakness is a strength, what you see as a denuding of culture is actually its progression. To grow one must change. Mammal taught me enough about Ida, to know that one doesnGÇÖt become complete through separations but understanding and accommodation.
While I know you to be one of the most intelligent and insightful persons I have ever had the privilege to oppose. It gives me no pleasure to say your comments betray a profound ignorance of what it means to be GÇÿGallenteGÇÖ, and I find many of your comments in this regard stunningly stereotypical.
Be well Bataav.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
387
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Posted - 2017.05.20 22:11:40 -
[330] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:You mentioned the Jin-Mei but it's obvious you don't actually know anything about them or how their cultural integrity is maintained. Your powers of assumption are impressive.
Other than two very brief mentions in my response to James, I have given no indication of how well read I may or may not be on Jin-Mei culture.
As it happens, a longstanding friendship with a fellow IPI Director, who happens to be Jin-Mei, has had an influence on me, and I've made a conscious effort to educate myself.
Last year I enjoyed following Xanxing's efforts in Lirsautton, and the close parallels that were evident to the early work of the ILF in the Intaki system almost ten years ago.
Bataav
Mahesha | Intaki Liberation Front & Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
91
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Posted - 2017.05.21 22:50:25 -
[331] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:There's no danger of Intaki culture being lost. You mentioned the Jin-Mei but it's obvious you don't actually know anything about them or how their cultural integrity is maintained. You mention the Matari but the way you express your concerns belittles the real experience of cultural destruction that the Matari have faced.
Speaking as a Jin-Mei myself I can support this statement in saying that our cultural integrity is alive and well. Of course the Lirsautton system of today doesn't compare to the solar system which it once was - it doesn't even retain it's old name which my people have given up to integrate within the Federation. The iconic Quafe company has its headquarters on our homeworld and the influence of Gallente culture is everywhere, but does that make us Jin-Mei Gallente? No, but it does make us Federation Citizens.
We still live and govern our society by traditional ways and we retain much of our lifestyle and values from times long before we encountered the first spacefaring civilisations, and the Federation actually empowers us to do so. In all honesty I don't see why the same couldn't be the case for the Intaki. As others have rightly pointed out, many Intaki live fully integrated into the Gallente Federation yet still retain their identity.
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
444
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Posted - 2017.05.21 23:07:40 -
[332] - Quote
As you would know Jueshi Raimo, but as others reading the topic might not know, no one asked the Jin-Mei to give up those names. It was something the Jin-Mei volunteered to do as a gesture of commitment. (Many people who were born in Lirsautton still call it and its planets by their Ji names. I wasn't born there and I use the Ji names every day.) |
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
94
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Posted - 2017.05.22 05:53:11 -
[333] - Quote
Of course, after all those are our names for those planets and our sun. The Gallente just kept mispronouncing them in confusing ways so the current solution made communication smoother.
We do have to acknowledge though that the Intaki have felt the repression of the ultranationalists in the past harder than we have, and some historical wariness can arise from that. |
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