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Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
2435
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Posted - 2017.05.07 20:45:39 -
[121] - Quote
What in the world is going on here?
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Lasairiona Raske
Raske Holdings
364
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Posted - 2017.05.07 21:20:09 -
[122] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:What in the world is going on here?
Popcorn?
Are you a devil or an angel
Sent here from heaven or from hell?
Sweet temptress, I'm wrapped in your tangles
Can't find my way out of your spell
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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
234
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Posted - 2017.05.07 21:22:01 -
[123] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:What in the world is going on here? Conversational deviance |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2149
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Posted - 2017.05.07 21:38:56 -
[124] - Quote
I thought Anabella was wearing weird glasses.
But it turned out to be an optical illusion due to her tattoos.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3754
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Posted - 2017.05.08 00:53:15 -
[125] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:By that logic, Aria, all laws are monstrous. People are going to murder, steal, commit assaults of all kinds upon one another, so why should we try to compel people not to?
We'll always be a mixture of kindness and cruelty. Some offenses, though, we don't tolerate. 'God said to' is just as much bullshit as 'the fedo told me to do it'.
It should be pretty clear from the sheer number of non-believer entities cheerfully enslaving people that "God said to" isn't needed, Arrendis.
Deciding "it is possible to have property rights over people" pretty well does it. Most of the outer, "pirate" societies have done just that.
Unless you're really willing to say that the ships they fly are full of nothing but people who deserve to die, it seems hard to say that what you claim is so intuitively obvious is actually so obvious.
If humans do a thing, it is within human capacities to do it. If humans do a thing in large numbers, as whole societies, then it's hard to say it's even against human tendencies to do that thing.
People differ. Societies differ. Moral codes differ.
There are some things (like stealing from your neighbor, as opposed to that person from two towns over) that humans really do seem to be wired against.
For good or ill, taking slaves isn't one.
(I think my predecessor must have had this argument a lot when she was working for the Cartel. This line of argument blends in my head into moral equivalencies between the empires and the pirate factions, arguing that they're nations, civilizations unto themselves, that are just a little rougher around the edges because of the harsh conditions they live in.) |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3180
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Posted - 2017.05.08 02:03:36 -
[126] - Quote
Blade Darth wrote:Diana Kim wrote:What devices have you got? The regular stuff you would find on a carrier converted into a bdsm club. Slaves, chains, whips, power drills, stasis pods that keep people awake... and more. Clubs? - prehistoric weapons. Slaves? - illegal within State borders. Chains? - outdated. Whips? - inefficient. Stasis pods that keep people awake? - we have hydrostatic capsules doing that.
Power drills though look like something that could have some use.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3452
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Posted - 2017.05.08 06:32:00 -
[127] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: It should be pretty clear from the sheer number of non-believer entities cheerfully enslaving people that "God said to" isn't needed, Arrendis.
Nope. It's not needed. It is however, the excuse the Amarr use for why it's ok. The Angels and other criminal groups, on the other hand, don't even claim it's ok, only that they can do it, so why the hel not?
And yes, as you assert the 'property rights' claim, that still doesn't mean any of those groups have claimed it to be ethical or morally-sound, only that they can get away with it, much like murder and theft.
So if your defense of the Amarr is 'criminals do it too', that's really not exactly a great defense.
Quote: Unless you're really willing to say that the ships they fly are full of nothing but people who deserve to die, it seems hard to say that what you claim is so intuitively obvious is actually so obvious.
You mean those pirtate organizations? Like the Angels, the Blood Raiders, etc?
Yeah. They all deserve to die. That's why we're killing close to a million Blood Raider ships a month, you know?
Quote: If humans do a thing, it is within human capacities to do it. If humans do a thing in large numbers, as whole societies, then it's hard to say it's even against human tendencies to do that thing.
There are some things (like stealing from your neighbor, as opposed to that person from two towns over) that humans really do seem to be wired against.
Actually, no. People aren't wired against 'it's ok to steal from your neighbor' any more than they're wired against slavery. 'You shouldn't steal from your neighbor' is an outgrowth, of, you know, any given person being outnumbered by their neighbors. Coincidentally enough, most people will also say 'you shouldn't up and enslave your neighbor'.
All that unpleasantness is reserved for 'two towns over'. For 'The Other', regardless of who that is. It's all basically tribalism in action. Members of the group are protected, those not in the group are fair game. And no, slavery is no different from theft or murder in those cases.
After all, how often do you hear the Amarr saying 'you know what? We should totally enslave one another'? Y'don't. I wonder why. Oh, right, they're members of the tribe. |
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
236
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Posted - 2017.05.08 12:59:36 -
[128] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:I could really use some help acquiring the specs for the Sansha infomorph interfacing units and the architecture of the computational power that goes with it. Are you asking people with Sansha affiliation to open up their secrets, or for those amongst the community who shoot at the Sansha to be more discerning in how they dismantle the wreckage?
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Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
169
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Posted - 2017.05.08 13:02:14 -
[129] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:I could really use some help acquiring the specs for the Sansha infomorph interfacing units and the architecture of the computational power that goes with it. Are you asking people with Sansha affiliation to open up their secrets, or for those amongst the community who shoot at the Sansha to be more discerning in how they dismantle the wreckage?
As long as it gets done, both are ok solutions.
I-¦m really not picky.
Join Project Transcendence.
Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.
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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
236
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Posted - 2017.05.08 13:10:17 -
[130] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
I-¦m really not picky.
Noted |
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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
236
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Posted - 2017.05.08 15:09:40 -
[131] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:and sharing opinions as if they were something important You're not doing anything different here, you know.. the difference is that the rest of us are making direct points, something potentially productive (albeit rarely), and you're just 3rd partying on the discussion. That's far from productive. So why don't you go erect something, eh? See how annoying that is?
Are you saying you're not going to erect something for her? |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1123
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Posted - 2017.05.08 15:23:22 -
[132] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:Jason Galente wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:and sharing opinions as if they were something important You're not doing anything different here, you know.. the difference is that the rest of us are making direct points, something potentially productive (albeit rarely), and you're just 3rd partying on the discussion. That's far from productive. So why don't you go erect something, eh? See how annoying that is? Are you saying you're not going to erect something for her?
Bad Halcyon. Bad
Though I suppose I asked for that one..
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
236
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Posted - 2017.05.08 15:29:58 -
[133] - Quote
So did she. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
173
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Posted - 2017.05.08 16:02:59 -
[134] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:So did she.
The erection is just a means to an end.
You keep focusing on the parts and ignoring the entirety....
Join Project Transcendence.
Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.
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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
239
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Posted - 2017.05.08 17:03:26 -
[135] - Quote
I can focus on more than one thing at a time |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2151
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Posted - 2017.05.08 18:33:18 -
[136] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:You can't lick your own elbow
Not with that attitude you can't !
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3768
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Posted - 2017.05.09 02:07:17 -
[137] - Quote
So ... Arrendis? I need to stop talking with you about this, now.
I'm sorry. I'd kind of like to continue, but, actually, I don't just speak for myself anymore, and I don't want to make trouble.
To restate a couple things I've always been pretty clear about: I'm a moral relativist, and there's no one in this world I want to see dead ... which doesn't stop me killing them.
No one has to deserve death-- or any other awful thing that might happen to them. The world doesn't work on such a convenient basis. It's not so neatly divided for your guns, or mine. This is filthy work we do, and we're rewarded for it handsomely.
This maybe isn't a very popular point of view.
That's okay, though. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3476
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Posted - 2017.05.09 02:15:58 -
[138] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:So ... Arrendis? I need to stop talking with you about this, now.
You should consider, Aria, what it says about people when they find the idea of being decent to one another so dangerous that it can't even be discussed.
And so should those requiring your silence.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3770
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Posted - 2017.05.09 03:48:09 -
[139] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:You should consider, Aria, what it says about people when they find the idea of being decent to one another so dangerous that it can't even be discussed.
And so should those requiring your silence.
No one's requiring my silence. It's a judgment call, one I'm making.
The Praefecta's faith is different from mine. The way I'd go about defending her civilization kind of leaves out something a little ... important, to her and those around us. To me, God's presence or absence makes basically no difference. That's not, of course, the way the Amarr themselves see it, though. Faith is a little central to their sense of themselves.
For me, too. Just, differently.
But I don't do any favors to the Praefecta, or, really, to myself, by defending them as my Angel predecessor would have, even if that's a well-worn path in my head. So ... for now, that's enough.
And Arrendis, before you start in with something smug about God? God is probably the reason the Amarr are so strong.
Whether He exists or not. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3478
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Posted - 2017.05.09 04:02:57 -
[140] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: The Praefecta's faith is different from mine. The way I'd go about defending her civilization kind of leaves out something a little ... important, to her and those around us. To me, God's presence or absence makes basically no difference. That's not, of course, the way the Amarr themselves see it, though. Faith is a little central to their sense of themselves.
Well, considering the original point was that they justify not having to follow the same rules as everyone else because the magic sky-fairy says they don't.... yeah, God being part of their justification for committing crimes against humanity is kinda pertinent, I'll give you that.
Quote: And Arrendis, before you start in with something smug about God? God is probably the reason the Amarr are so strong.
Whether He exists or not.
No argument there. Any commonality that can be used to draw a stark line betwee 'us' and 'them' is useful for tribal unity and strengthing the bonds ot the group. It doesn't have to be rationalGÇöin fact, it's best if the claim is specifically designed to not be testable.
You wouldn't want your special claim to be something that can be disproven, after all.
So, yeah. Belief in 'God' being a source of unity and strength? Totally agree. Especially if he doesn't exist.
Edit to add: Heck, if it's something you can't prove, then you get the added benefit of being able to claim that everyone pointing out that you can't prove it is persecuting you for your beliefs. That helps to bring the community in more tightly, and strengthens the social bonds even more. Nothing brings people together like an outside attack, after all. The more completely untestable your claim is, the better. |
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3775
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Posted - 2017.05.09 15:10:23 -
[141] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Belief in 'God' being a source of unity and strength? Totally agree. Especially if he doesn't exist.
Edit to add: Heck, if it's something you can't prove, then you get the added benefit of being able to claim that everyone pointing out that you can't prove it is persecuting you for your beliefs. That helps to bring the community in more tightly, and strengthens the social bonds even more. Nothing brings people together like an outside attack, after all. The more completely untestable your claim is, the better.
He's probably about as real as the "rights," including "human rights," the Gallente and certain Matari worship, Arrendis.
Though the idea of "inalienable rights" seems like it has the potential to tear people apart instead of drawing them together. ... Gods, it just occurred to me how much fun Gallentean heretics must be!
"I have an inherent right never to pay any taxes and to do basically whatever I want because of this obscure pseudo-legal arcana I found by cross-referencing a set of archaic legal wording with some weird snippets of history I once heard about and am conveniently interpreting in my own favor!"
Is that a thing? That happens? Oh, please do let it be! |
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
243
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Posted - 2017.05.09 15:19:59 -
[142] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Gods, it just occurred to me how much fun Gallentean heretics must be!
Fun, but with significantly less punch to their denouncement. "You'll rot in federal jail" doesn't have quite the dramatic impact as "You'll never go to heaven". |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3775
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Posted - 2017.05.09 15:34:09 -
[143] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Gods, it just occurred to me how much fun Gallentean heretics must be! Fun, but with significantly less punch to their denouncement. "You'll rot in federal jail" doesn't have quite the dramatic impact as "You'll burn forever in the fires of Hell."
Oh. Yeah ... they probably don't have penitence pits either (still curious), since the whole business is organized around things you're not allowed to do to people.
Doesn't that kind of let them keep making all kinds of noise from prison (and after) about how their self-declared rights are getting stomped all over, though? I mean, there's no point at which you can just shoot them, right? |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75202
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Posted - 2017.05.09 15:38:40 -
[144] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Gods, it just occurred to me how much fun Gallentean heretics must be! And this is why the Federation must be destroyed!
Death rides a fast C4mel
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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
244
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Posted - 2017.05.09 16:08:15 -
[145] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Halcyon Ember wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Gods, it just occurred to me how much fun Gallentean heretics must be! Fun, but with significantly less punch to their denouncement. "You'll rot in federal jail" doesn't have quite the dramatic impact as "You'll burn forever in the fires of Hell." Oh. Yeah ... they probably don't have penitence pits either (still curious), since the whole business is organized around things you're not allowed to do to people. Doesn't that kind of let them keep making all kinds of noise from prison (and after) about how their self-declared rights are getting stomped all over, though? I mean, there's no point at which you can just shoot them, right? Obviously, but for the same lifetime of the average Amarrian heretic anyway. For many the prospect of prison no doubt adds spice to the enterprise. Loss of your post mortal existence is a troubling thing, however, which no doubt explains the absence with which people cling to their new beliefs. It opens up to far more dramatic extremes of thought than simply flouting legalities.
You're still curious about the pits? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3487
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Posted - 2017.05.09 16:36:21 -
[146] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: He's probably about as real as the "rights," including "human rights," the Gallente and certain Matari worship, Arrendis.
Though the idea of "inalienable rights" seems like it has the potential to tear people apart instead of drawing them together. ... Gods, it just occurred to me how much fun Gallentean heretics must be!
I thought you were more familiar with the sociological underpinnings that determine fundamental rights, Aria.
Quote:"I have an inherent right never to pay any taxes and to do basically whatever I want because of this obscure pseudo-legal arcana I found by cross-referencing a set of archaic legal wording with some weird snippets of history I once heard about and am conveniently interpreting in my own favor!"
Is that a thing? That happens? Oh, please do let it be!
Indeed it is. Suck whack-a-dos style themselves 'sovereign citizens', and hold that the government has no authority over them because of their natural rights. And they're perfectly correct regarding those natural rights: anyone has the natural right to refuse to submit to taxation. Doing so, however, effectively opts-out of the social contract between them and the people around them (eg: 'society') and so they're no longer entitled to the goods and services society providesGÇöincluding things like stargate activation so they can go live in another society.
I expect the Gallente argue about this quite a lot. I know on Huggar station, our response was pretty straightforward and fair: 'You're right, you don't have to pay taxes. Disabling the door controls and shutting off life support to your quarters now.' |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3487
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Posted - 2017.05.09 16:40:15 -
[147] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:Loss of your post mortal existence
You mean being told that you won't get the completely unverifiable thing that you only thought you were getting because you were told that you were by the same people who tell you 'X, Y, and Z are bad unless it's us doing it, because the invisible magical sky fairy we can't actually prove exists said we should'. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3781
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Posted - 2017.05.09 16:59:14 -
[148] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:I thought you were more familiar with the sociological underpinnings that determine fundamental rights, Aria. Uh ... not really? I know the most about sociological underpinnings from Caldari, Achur, Amarr, and Angel Cartel perspectives. None of those are big on fundamental rights. I had to leave the Federation before I could really get to understand the deep theory, there; got too depressed.
Do want to go back someday.
Quote:Indeed it is. Suck whack-a-dos style themselves 'sovereign citizens', and hold that the government has no authority over them because of their natural rights. And they're perfectly correct regarding those natural rights: anyone has the natural right to refuse to submit to taxation. Doing so, however, effectively opts-out of the social contract between them and the people around them (eg: 'society') and so they're no longer entitled to the goods and services society providesGÇöincluding things like stargate activation so they can go live in another society.
I expect the Gallente argue about this quite a lot. I know on Huggar station, our response was pretty straightforward and fair: 'You're right, you don't have to pay taxes. Disabling the door controls and shutting off life support to your quarters now.' ... huh.
I'm a little surprised your belief in fundamental rights lets you be that, well, casual about the rebuttal.
It does seem kind of poetic, though. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3489
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Posted - 2017.05.09 17:34:54 -
[149] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: I'm a little surprised your belief in fundamental rights lets you be that, well, casual about the rebuttal.
It does seem kind of poetic, though.
Well, there's two kinds of 'fundamental rights', really. First, there's your actual, inviolate natural rights. These rights cannot be taken away from you. Doesn't matter what anyone does, how much power they exert, they can't take these rights away. These rights can summed up fairly succinclty:
- You have the natural right to do whatever it is you are capable of doing.
This means that yes, technically, you have the natural right to kill other people. Those people have the natural right to get pretty pissed off about the attempt and try to kill you right back. It's not a situation conducive to 'polite society'. Or, you know, 'society', at all. But they're there, and they underlie everything. That's what the SovCit mo-mos are on about when they talk about their right to not be taxed, even though most of them don't quite Get ItGäó.
Then you have your 'fundamental rights'. These are the basic rights that make society society, and they can be summed up pretty succinctly, too, though it involves an overview of the concept of the social contract:
- It is desirous and beneficial to any population that the members of that population refrain from actions that injure, harm, or impair the well-being of the population as a whole.
- Pursuant to those ends, the individual agrees to waive their natural rights to undertake those actionsGÇösuch as killing one anotherGÇöin order to secure assurances that others will waive their natural rights to subject the individual to those self-same actions. (eg: "You agree not to kill people, and people will agree not to kill you.")
- Agreement to participate in the social contract is not required to be explicit, and shall be tacitly inferred from participation in, and benefiting from, society.
Thus: "I have the fundamental right to expect that I will not be subjected to the injurious behaviors I am expected to refrain from within society." |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3489
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Posted - 2017.05.09 17:42:25 -
[150] - Quote
The corrolary that makes the 'well, ok, we'll just turn off the air' thing work, btw, is 'that also means that if you decide you don't want to meet your obligations to society, society doesn't need to meet its obligations to you.' |
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