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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6452
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Posted - 2017.05.04 07:40:03 -
[1] - Quote
One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month.
In looking at these reports lately the supply of ISK in game has been quite flat. Further, inflation is actually deflation. A small amount of deflation in an economy is fine. A large amount is bad. If one can earn say 10%/annum or more by simply not spending ISK then spending may very well collapse or take a serious hit. This is what happened during the Great Depression. The Fed let the money supply collapse which in turn resulted in consumption spending collapsing and thus taking a garden variety recession into a depression.
And letGÇÖs keep in mind that CCP Quant is using a modified Laspeyres index function which will actually overstate inflation or understate deflation. Ideally a superlative index function should be used like a superlative index function like in the sense of Fisher, T+¦rnqvist, or Walsh. These indices will treat price increases/decreases symmetrically and not result in a bias. That is, if anything deflation is being under-reported.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1434
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Posted - 2017.05.04 07:42:40 -
[2] - Quote
So... EVE is DyingGäó?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1678
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Posted - 2017.05.04 07:44:37 -
[3] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan.
More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs.
Drain the swamp of the Carebear Elite's and make EVE great again.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
1189
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Posted - 2017.05.04 07:47:15 -
[4] - Quote
Ty sugar
Also what ever is OP saying im sure its on the spot.
You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear
Because >>I is too hard
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Salvos Rhoska
2877
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Posted - 2017.05.04 07:49:29 -
[5] - Quote
What is causing deflation?
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Nardos Tatio
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2017.05.04 08:02:54 -
[6] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM!
I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf......
Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017......
Time for a change..... |
Falafel Express
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2017.05.04 08:04:49 -
[7] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:What is causing deflation?
Is explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVI2cv6oQl8 |
Salvos Rhoska
2878
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Posted - 2017.05.04 08:06:22 -
[8] - Quote
I see. The economy is being sat on by a masked pervert. It all makes sense now.
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
514
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Posted - 2017.05.04 08:10:46 -
[9] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:What is causing deflation? Rorqal and capship proliferation. The nullbears are printing ridiculous amounts of ISK-and ridiculous amounts of materials to turn into capships and other things. Have you noticed how PL has taken to dreadbombing Rorqals these days? Even dreads used to be a pretty big deal. Not so much any more.
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Jacques d'Orleans
3142
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Posted - 2017.05.04 08:38:17 -
[10] - Quote
Nardos Tatio wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM! I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf...... Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017...... Time for a change.....
Relevant
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Salvos Rhoska
2878
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Posted - 2017.05.04 08:50:14 -
[11] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:What is causing deflation? Rorqal and capship proliferation. The nullbears are printing ridiculous amounts of ISK-and ridiculous amounts of materials to turn into capships and other things. Have you noticed how PL has taken to dreadbombing Rorqals these days? Even dreads used to be a pretty big deal. Not so much any more.
Teckos:
Do you agree with this assessment?
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1678
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Posted - 2017.05.04 08:58:36 -
[12] - Quote
Nardos Tatio wrote:Time for a change..... Totally. I already stated that.
Drain the Carebear swamp.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
473
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Posted - 2017.05.04 10:14:34 -
[13] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:What is causing deflation?
Unpatched gonflable dolls. Use duct tape.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Clockwork Robot
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
123
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Posted - 2017.05.04 10:53:31 -
[14] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM!
Now, I'm not saying I agree with OP's rationalization... But this post really caught my eye.
In my eight years of lurking on EVEs forums, and various blogs the playerbase have put up, I feel as though the ones truly calling out to CCP for changes, the ones constantly gnashing their teeth and equipping sackcloth for clothes have not been the carebears, but those who vehemently claim to not be carebears.
Rarely do I read about a legitimate attempt to get a PvP style nerfed that isn't a thinly veiled troll. (Mostly from another PvP'er.) But boy howdy, the conspiracy theories on what them durn ol carebears are plotting this time read like Doctor Claws journal. Which is itself interesting. Carebears can be ineffectual, whining complainers, or they can be dastardly, hyper-nefarious plotters... But they cant be both, my friends. You only derail your own narrarive when you claim that the people you prey on for not defending themselves are also scheming to destroy you and have Illuminati style agendas.
Kind of like Pyschotic Monk. The man could pen an interesting read. But for being a self-styled "Prince" of HTFU, he sure did spend a lot of bandwidth crying about carebears, up to and including rage-quitting because CCP wouldn't agree with how he wanted the game to be played. |
Salvos Rhoska
2880
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:06:53 -
[15] - Quote
Im not an economist, and I only superficially understand the science of it.
Im genuinely interested what is causing deflation in EVE. I may not understand much of the nuances, but Im not stupid either, and recognize it is important for the health of the game.
When I look at the charts, pretty much all I see to understand, is the pronounced/deprecated figures here and there.
Ive myself proposed that "isk sinks are good", but some posts by Teckos in particular have helped me understand there is more at stake.
I havent, and dont know how, to scientifically track the rate of inflation in EVE. If he says its deflating, and that perhaps another metric for measuring it by CCP would be better, I cant argue that either way.
But Id like to know what the extant factors are that perceived to are causing it. That should be something that would be understandable and demonstrable even to economy plebs like me.
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
473
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:17:16 -
[16] - Quote
Citadels are too cheap, easy to build and very easy to replace. They provide the logistic base for complex industrial operations. Time is isk and having a citadel in the right spot greatly enhances the speed at which a product gets to destination.
p.s.
Now I'm waiting for a null bear to come in and post how High Sec is responsible for the deflation.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Chopper Rollins
Far Beyond Triggered
1856
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:29:06 -
[17] - Quote
lol economists like weather reporters, they don't get fired for being wrong, in fact they shore up their credibility by explaining to ten decimal places what else happened other than what they predicted. Money is a form of rationing. What amazes me is how the economy doesn't grind to a halt with everybody having three of everything, the resources spawn most days and no way is the ship/structure loss covering all that.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
473
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:33:57 -
[18] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:lol economists like weather reporters, they don't get fired for being wrong, in fact they shore up their credibility by explaining to ten decimal places what else happened other than what they predicted. Money is a form of rationing. What amazes me is how the economy doesn't grind to a halt with everybody having three of everything, the resources spawn most days and no way is the ship/structure loss covering all that.
In both, war and economics, the success of an operation greatly depends on how effective the supply lines are. In the current configuration the ship/structure loss is never going to cover anything at all.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Salvos Rhoska
2880
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:34:11 -
[19] - Quote
I find it hard to rationalize how isk sinks would be the problem.
Especially now that Citadels sidestep NPC taxes/fees on a great deal of services. This alone should have retained substantially more isk in the market.
What are the primary theories on cause of deflation in EVE?
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
473
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:46:49 -
[20] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I find it hard to rationalize how isk sinks would be the problem.
Especially now that Citadels sidestep NPC taxes/fees on a great deal of services. This alone should have retained substantially more isk in the market.
What are the primary theories on cause of deflation in EVE?
Isk sink is a general term for a rationing system that covers a very large area. You, having commited gankery and buying tags to increase your sec status is an isk sink. You, having commited repeated gankery that got you -10 sec status and plexing an alt to be able to carebear in peace is also an isk sink. Buying and injecting skills on the created alt is also an isk sink etc etc etc. Eve is above everything else a game of alts and that is the most major isk sink in the game.
When the mother of dragons, which is your main, sits on a passive pile that can cover all your alts needs you get deflation ; because you don't supply from the market but from the main.
How many mothers of dragons are in the game only CCP knows...
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6685
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:49:55 -
[21] - Quote
Nardos Tatio wrote:I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf......
Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017......
Time for a change.....
There are other MMOs out there. Have fun.
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Salvos Rhoska
2880
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Posted - 2017.05.04 11:55:44 -
[22] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Nardos Tatio wrote:I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf......
Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017......
Time for a change..... There are other MMOs out there. Have fun. Whilst true, completely unnecessary and offtopic.
This thread is about isk sinks.
You could have PMd him this instead of derailing the thread.
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Blade Darth
Room for Improvement Limited Expectations
77
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Posted - 2017.05.04 12:03:15 -
[23] - Quote
I look at it from electricians perspective and it seems like 2+2 doesn't add up.
According to monthly economic report there is more isk available than ever (even with a lot of people printing minerals in rorq's instead of printing isk in carriers). A little bit more from incursions and 2x from nullsec bounties. With so much isk one would assume the prices will also go up. But they don't. The only sinks that increased are brokers fee and transaction tax (but nowhere near to balance the bonus income), and those 2 bring us to next point: Judging by velocity of isk people do much more short-term transactions, like they were afraid to hang on to commodities for longer.
There is 3x more stuff (at current price) than isk in the whole game. So the "real" value of most items is 30% and we are riding on a speculation bubble for years. Or am I missing something. |
Salvos Rhoska
2880
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Posted - 2017.05.04 12:07:38 -
[24] - Quote
Blade Darth wrote:There is 3x more stuff (at current price) than isk in the whole game. So the "real" value of most items is 30% and we are riding on a speculation bubble for years. Or am I missing something.
This is along the lines of what I've been thinking. Glad to hear someone else articulate it.
That NS produces 92% of bounty faucet many many times over the value of WH blue/Overseer effects, seems off to me.
Since NS bounties are overwhelmingly the greatest ISk faucet, what are they doing with that isk that deflation would still occur?
What are they doing with that enormous isk income?
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
473
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Posted - 2017.05.04 12:10:05 -
[25] - Quote
Blade Darth wrote:I look at it from electricians perspective and it seems like 2+2 doesn't add up.
According to monthly economic report there is more isk available than ever (even with a lot of people printing minerals in rorq's instead of printing isk in carriers). A little bit more from incursions and 2x from nullsec bounties. With so much isk one would assume the prices will also go up. But they don't. The only sinks that increased are brokers fee and transaction tax (but nowhere near to balance the bonus income), and those 2 bring us to next point: Judging by velocity of isk people do much more short-term transactions, like they were afraid to hang on to commodities for longer.
There is 3x more stuff (at current price) than isk in the whole game. So the "real" value of most items is 30% and we are riding on a speculation bubble for years. Or am I missing something.
Speculation bubble, best bubble! Not even ceptors are immune to it.
However, the t3s...
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
103
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:14:19 -
[26] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I find it hard to rationalize how isk sinks would be the problem. The most prominent among them are standard operating costs that havent been increased.
Especially now that Citadels sidestep NPC taxes/fees on a great deal of services. This alone should have retained substantially more isk in the market.
What are the primary theories on cause of deflation in EVE?
Note: That 92% of bounty faucet is earned in NS blew my mind. Furthermore, it completely overshadows WH blue/overseer loot.
First of all, you have to understand that STUFF is not an isk faucet. They way you get isk from any kind of item is by selling it (or selling a product made from it). Mining is not an isk faucet... it's a MINERAL faucet but the amount of isk isn't impacted. Any isk from mining comes from another player. Blue loot from WH's is not an isk faucet either. While there are minor ones... the main isk faucet is bounties.
Isk sinks are those where isk permanently leaves the game (instead of going to another player). Payments on insurance where the ship isn't destroyed in time to collect are an isk sink. So are skill books and any other non-manufactured items available on the market. Isk paid to LP stores is also a sink... that money leaves EVE... whatever money you make from selling the stuff comes from other players.
The biggest sink is simply players quitting without giving their isk away. That's not a complete sink as they COULD come back... but it does take that isk out of potential circulation.
Because of that setup, we have a constantly increasing supply of isk. That increased money supply is an inflationary pressure... if the same amount of stuff is available but the money supply increases, prices go up as people use their additional isk to get more stuff.
But we also have an increasing supply of "stuff". PI and mining and drops from NPC's all create things that can either be sold or can be turned into other things. The increased supply of "stuff" leads to deflation... lower prices if taken by itself. If the money supply (purchasing power) is stagnant but the amount of stuff goes up, the price of that stuff goes down as people compete to get their stuff bought.
The fact that we are seeing deflation simply means that the supply of STUFF is going up faster than the supply of ISK (or at least the supply of ISK that is actively being used as opposed to sitting in inactive accounts). That could be Rorquals. It could be more people doing PI. It could be a huge number of passive moon mining operations. It could be wormhole drops. But it's not on the bounty side... more bounty payouts (more isk faucet) or less isk sinks would be one way of attempting to address that. So would decreasing the level that "stuff" is output at.
That's a simplistic 1000 foot view of it. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
103
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:16:23 -
[27] - Quote
Blade Darth wrote:I look at it from electricians perspective and it seems like 2+2 doesn't add up.
According to monthly economic report there is more isk available than ever (even with a lot of people printing minerals in rorq's instead of printing isk in carriers). A little bit more from incursions and 2x from nullsec bounties. With so much isk one would assume the prices will also go up. But they don't. The only sinks that increased are brokers fee and transaction tax (but nowhere near to balance the bonus income), and those 2 bring us to next point: Judging by velocity of isk people do much more short-term transactions, like they were afraid to hang on to commodities for longer.
There is 3x more stuff (at current price) than isk in the whole game. So the "real" value of most items is 30% and we are riding on a speculation bubble for years. Or am I missing something.
Isk creation is mostly bounties.
Minerals are not isk generation. They are product generation which have a deflationary impact. Bounties are on the opposite side of the ledger and have an inflationary impact. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
103
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:20:39 -
[28] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Blade Darth wrote:There is 3x more stuff (at current price) than isk in the whole game. So the "real" value of most items is 30% and we are riding on a speculation bubble for years. Or am I missing something. This is along the lines of what I've been thinking. Glad to hear someone else articulate it. That NS produces 92% of bounty faucet many many times over the value of WH blue/Overseer effects, and WH/HS/LS bounty combined, seems off to me. Since NS bounties are overwhelmingly the greatest ISk faucet, what are they doing with that isk that deflation would still occur? It seems to me that as the massively overwhelming introduction of isk to the game is in NS, the cause of deflation despite that overwhelming rate must also be located in NS. Its unreasonable to search for a cause to deflation in HS/LS/WHs, since they are responsible for far less isk introduction, including even Incursions (many of whom are alts of NS based players). Clearly they are not re-introducing that isk into the player market (despite unadulterated HS/NS trade), which would forestall deflation. What is NS doing with that enormous isk income that deflation can (according to Teckos) occur concurrently?
This is not necessarily accurate (though it might be).
You have to look at it in terms of Products and Money.
Money created out nothing (like printing more currency in real life) is inflationary. That would be bounties, mission rewards and time bonuses.
PRODUCTS created out of nothing is deflationary. It puts more stuff on the market that people can spend isk on, which drives prices down. This includes loot drops from Rats (including WH rats), mining, PI, Moon-goo harvesting, items purchased with LP (particularly if they also require isk) and salvage. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
3409
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:21:33 -
[29] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:What is NS doing with that enormous isk income that deflation can (according to Teckos) occur concurrently? It looks to me that it is just general overproduction, even more than the record levels of ISK injection.
If you look at 'Production vs. Destruction' chart you can see that the production peak after the Citadel relese showed a daily production of 3T net (4T production vs. 1T destruction) for a total injection of about 90T ISK per month of goods. That dipped, but then peaked even higher to the point we are currently adding about 120T ISK of goods to the economy each month. In contrast, there was only a net addition of ~38T ISK in March, and even less in previous months which featured large amounts of ISK going inactive with players leaving the game/getting banned.
We don't know exactly how much of the production is also going inactive, but I think it is plausible even in this environment with record levels of ISK creation that production is significantly exceeding ISK generation resulting in the deflationary pressures apparent in the MER.
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March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2161
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:23:59 -
[30] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Blade Darth wrote:There is 3x more stuff (at current price) than isk in the whole game. So the "real" value of most items is 30% and we are riding on a speculation bubble for years. Or am I missing something. This is along the lines of what I've been thinking. Glad to hear someone else articulate it. That NS produces 92% of bounty faucet many many times over the value of WH blue/Overseer effects, and WH/HS/LS bounty combined, seems off to me. Since NS bounties are overwhelmingly the greatest ISk faucet, what are they doing with that isk that deflation would still occur? It seems to me that as the massively overwhelming introduction of isk to the game is in NS, the cause of deflation despite that overwhelming rate must also be located in NS. Its unreasonable to search for a cause to deflation in HS/LS/WHs, since they are responsible for far less isk introduction, including even Incursions (many of whom are alts of NS based players). Clearly they are not re-introducing that isk into the player market (despite unadulterated HS/NS trade), which would forestall deflation. What is NS doing with that enormous isk income that deflation can (according to Teckos) occur concurrently? Well... Personally i have 100 billion ISK in wallet. These ISK just sitting there. Because atm there is nothing to spend ISK on in the game.
Other think i would like to mention is that 0.0 looks dead lately. My corp roams almost every day and last month or about we have big problem to find anything alive around. Outside of some obvious places like Providense or FW low-sec there is almost none to fight.
Keeping this in mind i would look at graphs of items/ships destruction and look if it shows decline. If it does then deflation might simply mean that ISK are sitting in wallets and not go to market.
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Salvos Rhoska
2881
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:30:22 -
[31] - Quote
Scialt wrote:First of all, you have to understand that STUFF is not an isk faucet. Isk sinks are those where isk permanently leaves the game (instead of going to another player). I know what isk faucets/sinks are.
Are you deliberately trying to be patronizing?
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Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
614
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:39:16 -
[32] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM!
It always works don't it, find a group to blame, it's illegals, it's those damn signoids, blah, blah, always bring that one golden hate bullet and blame carebear, seriously look around you and take the hate goggles off for a moment;
We have:
EC and Citadels being built in many corners of eve.
Cap ships don't seem to be a problem to build by anyone, nobody complaining that they are too expensive, they get printed out quick enough.
Flying around New Eden I assure you people are sporting the latest in tier ships.
Blaming one group is just plain short sighted, if there's a problem in the economy it has many factors and placing blame upon one group is why we have our problems in RL too, stop with the "it's carebears" because anything as complex as an economy has many things that can make it stagnant. |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
475
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Posted - 2017.05.04 14:48:30 -
[33] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM! It always works don't it, find a group to blame, it's illegals, it's those damn signoids, blah, blah, always bring that one golden hate bullet and blame carebear, seriously look around you and take the hate goggles off for a moment; We have: EC and Citadels being built in many corners of eve. Cap ships don't seem to be a problem to build by anyone, nobody complaining that they are too expensive, they get printed out quick enough. Flying around New Eden I assure you people are sporting the latest in tier ships. Blaming one group is just plain short sighted, if there's a problem in the economy it has many factors and placing blame upon one group is why we have our problems in RL too, stop with the "it's carebears" because anything as complex as an economy has many things that can make it stagnant.
Now, now... Everyone blames the carebears. Even carebears blame the carebears. We do it because it's trendy and we must conform to trends.
Such is the will of BoB!
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
187
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 14:58:36 -
[34] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: What is NS doing with that enormous isk income that deflation can (according to Teckos) occur concurrently?
Building Supers and Titans.
Building Citadels, ECs, and getting ready for Refineries.
Building rigs for Citadels and ECs. The t1 XL rigs are still tens of billions of isk, and it is far more time efficient to rat up the isk and buy out the Jita supply than to salvage your own wrecks.
I might be confusing terms here, but I think we are mixing up the money supply that has been flat since Citadel release (except the sudden jump and decline with alphas) and actual sinks and faucets in the game. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6686
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 15:31:59 -
[35] - Quote
Blue loot is, btw, an isk faucet. Just an indirect one. You get the loot, you sell it to an NPC, isk enters the game.
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Jordan Rin
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 16:07:57 -
[36] - Quote
Weird thing happened here.
See below. |
Jordan Rin
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 16:09:09 -
[37] - Quote
[quote=Shae Tadaruwa] Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. /quote]
Shae, you have succeeded!
I am not an "elite" of anything, but I do not care about PvP at all. So I guess I fit your definition of carebear.
My annual subscription will expire soon (on my main) and I will not be renewing. Because of you and likes of you!
Never cared about isk, just wanted some fun with spaceships.
You are one step closer to making Eve great again. Keep up the good work! |
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
505
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 16:18:45 -
[38] - Quote
Nardos Tatio wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM! I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf...... Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017...... Time for a change..... You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6455
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 16:29:47 -
[39] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Shallanna Yassavi wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:What is causing deflation? Rorqal and capship proliferation. The nullbears are printing ridiculous amounts of ISK-and ridiculous amounts of materials to turn into capships and other things. Have you noticed how PL has taken to dreadbombing Rorqals these days? Even dreads used to be a pretty big deal. Not so much any more. Teckos: Do you agree with this assessment?
No. "Printing" ISK will result in inflation not deflation....or if you print just enough ISK, neither--i.e. have the money supply grow as fast as the "real" sector.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6455
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 16:35:21 -
[40] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Im not an economist, and I only superficially understand the science of it.
Im genuinely interested what is causing deflation in EVE. I may not understand much of the nuances, but Im not stupid either, and recognize it is important for the health of the game.
When I look at the charts, pretty much all I see to understand, is the pronounced/deprecated figures here and there.
Ive myself proposed that "isk sinks are good", but some posts by Teckos in particular have helped me understand there is more at stake.
I havent, and dont know how, to scientifically track the rate of inflation in EVE. If he says its deflating, and that perhaps another metric for measuring it by CCP would be better, I cant argue that either way.
But Id like to know what the extant factors are that are perceived to be causing it. That should be something that would be understandable and demonstrable even to economy plebs like me.
Inflation/deflation are pretty much monetary phenomena. That is when the money supply grows faster than the real sector there is inflation, and when it grows slower there is deflation.
In a general sense inflation usually means the government is "taxing" people's cash holdings and spending that tax. CCP does not in that money creation is largely the result of player actions (ratting, missions, etc.) that create ISK de novo. With deflation it is like earning interest on you cash holdings. If this gets too large then spending can collapse and trigger a recession or turn a recession into a depression.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6455
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 16:49:41 -
[41] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:lol economists like weather reporters, they don't get fired for being wrong, in fact they shore up their credibility by explaining to ten decimal places what else happened other than what they predicted. Money is a form of rationing. What amazes me is how the economy doesn't grind to a halt with everybody having three of everything, the resources spawn most days and no way is the ship/structure loss covering all that.
The decimal places just show the economists have a sense of humor.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
41
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 17:01:22 -
[42] - Quote
EVE is probably experiencing slight mudflation right now. Everything is overproduced to a significant amount and market prices slowly fall. Meanwhile the rare unique items that you can no longer attain except through players constantly rise in value. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
675
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 17:19:59 -
[43] - Quote
Nardos Tatio wrote:
Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017......
Time for a change.....
No, it is not. Go away.
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
107
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 17:30:29 -
[44] - Quote
removed |
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2937
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 17:35:12 -
[45] - Quote
for an established character it is pretty easy to make 100m-200m/hr. All that income -> plex prices go up, also unique ship/item prices
massive null empires collecting more moon goo than we can blow up -> long run t2 price deflation tons of mining -> mineral deflation tons of ratting -> meta mod deflation, salvage deflation tons of escalations -> dead space mod deflation tons of pi -> commodity deflation
I almost feel like it makes more sense to say we have material/item inflation,
selling officer BCUs! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6872141
@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
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SupaL33tH4x0r Regime
Mariposa Mining Association Intrepid Crossing
4
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 19:05:57 -
[46] - Quote
why not, lets just whip the market and everyone clean of items and start from scratch while we're at it |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
515
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 20:05:07 -
[47] - Quote
SupaL33tH4x0r Regime wrote:why not, lets just whip the market and everyone clean of items and start from scratch while we're at it That would lose most of the playerbase all at once. Mostly the ones which really didn't care about accumulating wealth at all would stick around, and there aren't too many of those.
A signature :o
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Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
91
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 20:13:46 -
[48] - Quote
In a way, seeing the supply of ISK go flat is somewhat good. It means ISK is kept under control for now. Of course, that will likely change since capsuleers are always clever enough to figure out how to turn that around. |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
1211
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 21:01:02 -
[49] - Quote
TL;DR
EVE needs more things to go pop... Not enough popping going on here... EVE is too safe.... EVE is dying(TM)... |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
1211
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 21:02:42 -
[50] - Quote
SupaL33tH4x0r Regime wrote:why not, lets just wipe the market and everyone clean of items and start from scratch while we're at it
You mean invent ISK that's not in the game to buy crap from players who build it with stuff from in the game? Talk about a major new ISK faucet... |
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Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 21:23:48 -
[51] - Quote
Nardos Tatio wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM! I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf...... Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017...... Time for a change.....
Go **** yourself. |
Hal Morsh
Minmatar Confederate
585
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 23:33:21 -
[52] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM!
I saw it as easier isk earning with independent industry groups that don't use market materials to produce, People still need ships. EVE losing ganking would probably be the first step to death.
I also don't know words I've never had to use. At least I've seen superlative before.
Being sapient can drive us mad.
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Clockwork Robot
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
130
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 00:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Nardos Tatio wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM! I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf...... Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017...... Time for a change..... Go **** yourself.
I never thought about the EvE market that way, Verlyn. You've given me a new, unique perspective on the game.
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CMDR-HerpyDerpy Hurishima
Debitum Naturae
54
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 02:35:14 -
[54] - Quote
What are isk sinks? .-._.-_.->..>>>p-. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1681
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 02:52:50 -
[55] - Quote
Jordan Rin wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again.
Shae, you have succeeded! I am not an "elite" of anything, but I do not care about PvP at all. So I guess I fit your definition of carebear. My annual subscription will expire soon (on my main) and I will not be renewing. Because of you and likes of you! Never cared about isk, just wanted some fun with spaceships. You are one step closer to making Eve great again. Keep up the good work! What does believing in pvp have to do with being a Carebear?
Plenty of PVEers are not Carebears and plenty of PVPers are. PVE v PVP isn't what defines a Carebear.
However take responsibility for your decision to not continue your subscription. That's great for you and everyone's right to make that choice. Nothing to be ashamed of and no ones else should really claim success for that. I don't even know who you are, so I feel a bit unworthy of the praise. However, not wanting to disappoint, thanks anyway.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
1274
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 04:10:40 -
[56] - Quote
Nardos Tatio wrote:Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017......
You explicitly and willingly consent to pvp engagements when you click 'undock'.
Why do people not understand this one, small, simple thing.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Jenn aSide
shinigami miners ChaosTheory.
15799
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 04:44:43 -
[57] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Nardos Tatio wrote:Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017...... You explicitly and willingly consent to pvp engagements when you click 'undock'. Why do people not understand this one, small, simple thing.
They do understand it, they don't like it and think if they complain enough it will change. The last 14 years of evidence that it won't means zero to folks like that.
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Salvos Rhoska
2889
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 06:30:07 -
[58] - Quote
Havent Upwell structures had a significant impact on NPC taxes/fees as an isk sink?
PvE v PvP
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Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
741
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 06:47:24 -
[59] - Quote
Dark Lord Trump wrote:Nardos Tatio wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month. It's all part of the Carebear elite's plan. More ISK sinks = less ISK in people's wallets = more people whining when they get blown up = more calls for gank nerfs. As with all Carebear plans, the people it hurts the most are themselves, but they can't see the forest for the trees. Drain the swamp of the Carebear elite's and make EVE great again. Shaetads for CSM! I rather see a forest cut down then have to deal with ONE wolf...... Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017...... Time for a change..... You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I see the indoctrination programme is still in full swing....
Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..."
" They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."
Welcome to EVE.
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Salvos Rhoska
2891
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 06:49:49 -
[60] - Quote
Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic.
PvE v PvP
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1685
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 07:32:09 -
[61] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Salvos Rhoska
2891
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 08:41:36 -
[62] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic.
Is it? Then so are yours.
Make up your mind, my dear.
PvE v PvP
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Chopper Rollins
Far Beyond Triggered
1860
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 10:48:51 -
[63] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Nardos Tatio wrote:
Unwilling and unaccepted PVP is not part of a modern mmog.....it was 14 years ago but we have 2017......
Time for a change.....
No, it is not. Go away.
BUT IT IS THE CURRENT YEAR.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1685
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 11:02:49 -
[64] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic. Is it? Then so are yours. Make up your mind, my dear. Yeah mine are, but I'm not the fool crying for people to stay on topic while posting off topic at the same time.
People can post how they like. If the ISDs or CCP staff don't like it, they'll sort it out. No one is really going to pay much attention to anything you request of them,
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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March rabbit
Mosquito squadron The-Culture
2164
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Posted - 2017.05.05 11:50:23 -
[65] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cool it with the "Vote for me" trashposts.
CSM elections came and went. You missed the boat.
Stick to topic. Your post is off topic. Is it? Then so are yours. Make up your mind, my dear. Yeah mine are, but I'm not the fool crying for people to stay on topic while posting off topic at the same time. People can post how they like. If the ISDs or CCP staff don't like it, they'll sort it out. No one is really going to pay much attention to anything you request of them, The bar is getting lower and lower.....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Jenn aSide
shinigami miners ChaosTheory.
15799
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 12:10:39 -
[66] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote: You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I see the indoctrination programme is still in full swing....
How is accepting the plain reality of a situation "indoctrination"?
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Salvos Rhoska
2892
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Posted - 2017.05.05 12:30:54 -
[67] - Quote
I agree with Teckos on not implementing more isk sinks. (I used to think differently, but Ive learned from him in previous threads)
I think the Upwell structures result of redirecting cost of services to player Corp pockets rather than sunk out of the game to NPCs was a good step towards a more player centered economy, although its true impact is unclear and obscured by the Jita/Forge Monolith. (Id love if someone with know how could calculate the change in NPC fees/tax sink since Upwell structures where released)
Isk sinks suck, especially as it makes the economy even more vulnerable to: a) players leaving game and removing their assets from circulation. b) remaining players choosing not to invest due to rate of deflation.
Thats the isk sink issue out of the way.
But.
Teckos: Why do you think there is a deflation trend? What sustained ingame player action is causing this?
PvE v PvP
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Salvos Rhoska
2892
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 12:35:09 -
[68] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote: You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I see the indoctrination programme is still in full swing.... How is accepting the plain reality of a situation "indoctrination"?
Teaching players the Golden Rules is indoctrination. Teaching a student the scientific method is indoctrination.
You have the false premise that indoctrination could not involve being taught to understand/accept the plain reality of a system.
You dun goofed again, Jenn.
PvE v PvP
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Salvos Rhoska
2892
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Posted - 2017.05.05 12:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
Soon approaching Reddit standards. Guess its the millennial generation piling in.
PvE v PvP
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Jenn aSide
shinigami miners ChaosTheory.
15799
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Posted - 2017.05.05 13:01:12 -
[70] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote: You accept PvP when you click undock. If you have an issue with that, Singularity is open for you.
I see the indoctrination programme is still in full swing.... How is accepting the plain reality of a situation "indoctrination"? Teaching players the Golden Rules is indoctrination. Teaching a student the scientific method is indoctrination. You have the false premise that indoctrination could not involve being taught to understand/accept the plain reality of a system. You dun goofed again, Jenn.
I understand that English isn't your 1st language so you might not get what's being wrote, but the way the word was used was with a negative inflection.
Funny thing is there is a guy at my job who is from South America and does the same thing, and like you we've had to explain that real language use doesn't follow strict dictionary guidelines.
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ISD Chanisa Nemes
isd community communications liaisons
126
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Posted - 2017.05.05 13:55:07 -
[71] - Quote
Removed some off-topic posting
ISD Chanisa Nemes
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Salvos Rhoska
2894
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 15:08:13 -
[72] - Quote
"Indoctrination" as a term, carries no "negative inflections" (whatever the """" you think that means).
Sorry, SJennaW. You cant pervert language here without being called on it.
The term doesn't mean what you have been "indoctrinated" to think it means.
PvE v PvP
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Uhum Buheev
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 15:54:06 -
[73] - Quote
just allow bombs in Hi Sec
Create Urgent Message like kind of "Broken security Event! Empire security is compromized by viruses and bombs are allowed in Jita undock! Starting from today, and it ends in 3 days!! BE careful! (I mean hurry up and kill kill kill!! 3 days only!!)"
and repeat that event randomly once in month. really good sink for isks! |
Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 15:58:04 -
[74] - Quote
Uhum Buheev wrote:just allow bombs in Hi Sec! Im totally ok with NS rules in Jita. Jita must die.
Jita/Forge is a cancerous tumor made possible by bad mechanics perpetuated throughout EVE for years.
It should not exist. Every yesr, NPC Jita grows more prominent. Its an abomination and a drain on content/dynamics both economic and PvP throughout EVE.
DEATH TO JITA!
PvE v PvP
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 17:29:45 -
[75] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I agree with Teckos on not implementing more isk sinks. (I used to think differently, but Ive learned from him in previous threads)
I think the Upwell structures result of redirecting cost of services to player Corp pockets rather than sunk out of the game to NPCs was a good step towards a more player centered economy, although its true impact is unclear and obscured by the Jita/Forge Monolith. (Id love if someone with know how could calculate the change in NPC fees/tax sink since Upwell structures where released)
Isk sinks suck, especially as it makes the economy even more vulnerable to: a) players leaving game and removing their assets from circulation. b) remaining players choosing not to invest due to rate of deflation.
Thats the isk sink issue out of the way.
But.
Teckos: Why do you think there is a deflation trend? What sustained ingame player action is causing this?
It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 17:43:44 -
[76] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. I already agreed to that.
Isk sinks are bad. Better to funnel those funds into player entities such as by Upwell structures replacing NPC sinks into player pockets instead..
But. Thats not what I asked you.
You have claimed the EVE isk economy is deflating.
Explain now then why that is occurring.
What is causing deflation in EVE?
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Benje en Divalone
6
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Posted - 2017.05.05 17:47:03 -
[77] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jita/Forge is a cancerous tumor made possible by bad mechanics perpetuated throughout EVE for years. Nuke Jita and another High Sec station becomes the hub. Continue to nuke the new hubs and soon there won't be any High Sec left. At that point I guess we'll have to become renters of GSF or PH so we can trade. Or opt out entirely.
Brilliant.
(never not take the bait) |
Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 18:27:03 -
[78] - Quote
Benje en Divalone wrote:Nuke Jita and another High Sec station becomes the hub. There are underlying causes. Material transport, especially past LS, is too safe. JFs make a mockery of LS transit between HS and NS.
The figures for Jita trade volume completely eclipse anywhere else, and its a goddam NPC system.
Mark my words, Jita is one of the causes for "EVE dying".
As related to topic, goddam the amount of isk sink in Jita alone for fees.
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2959
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Posted - 2017.05.05 18:43:39 -
[79] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO.
we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something.
selling officer BCUs! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6872141
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
113
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Posted - 2017.05.05 18:48:40 -
[80] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Benje en Divalone wrote:Nuke Jita and another High Sec station becomes the hub. There are underlying causes. Material transport, especially past LS, is too safe. JFs make a mockery of LS transit between HS and NS. The figures for Jita trade volume completely eclipse anywhere else, and its a goddam NPC system. Mark my words, Jita is one of the causes for "EVE dying". As related to topic, goddam the amount of isk sink in Jita alone for fees.
Centralized markeds don't create deflation in general. If you take away centralized market s you end up with an economic situation that has more regional variance on what the prices are of different things in different places... but it has little net impact on on totals. The supply is the same... the demand is the same. It's just the points of sale are not centralized. In the areas where the demand is high and/or the supply is low... prices rise. If the demand in another place is low and/or the supply is high... prices drop.
If products are destroyed (not confiscated, but in fact destroyed) in great numbers on the way to a central market but players do NOT react by spreading to diversified markets.... then you could see a supply impact. But I think you would agree that if hauling were to become less safe the markets would spread out instead of being centered in a few places. This could get rid of Jita... but it wouldn't impact inflation/deflation in a significant way (assuming that deflation is the underlying cause you're referring to). |
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Salvos Rhoska
2894
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:00:02 -
[81] - Quote
Such a monolith as Jita should never have been possible in EVE.
Its existence is anathema to every EVE principle, and proof positive of severely dysfunctional safety of material transport to and from it.
Its an abomination. A festering, ever-growing cancer that sucks the life/content out of the rest of EVE.
Player empires rise and fall, yet the Jita tumor only grows and grows.
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:48:02 -
[82] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. I already agreed to that. Isk sinks are bad. Better to funnel those funds into player entities such as by Upwell structures replacing NPC sinks into player pockets instead.. But. Thats not what I asked you. You have claimed the EVE isk economy is deflating. Explain now then why that is occurring. What is causing deflation in EVE?
ISK sinks in and of themselves aren't bad. And for what is causing it, my last post gave some possibilities as to why we are seeing prices trending down. Another factor could be reduction to barriers to certain production such as the change to station slots for copying, manufacturing, inventing, etc. That removed many barriers just by itself. Before to do invention having a POS was quite common, but to have a POS in those days you had to have standings and the POS fuels. With unlimited slots the role of the POS was greatly reduced for much of invention. Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:50:45 -
[83] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something.
If that is the case, then perhaps it is the lack of sufficient destruction. We need more conflict!
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8407
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:52:56 -
[84] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:One thing that keeps popping up in various sub-fora is the notion that we need more ISK sinks. I find this amazing in that it suggests that the people making these posts are not looking at the economic reports that CCP Quant publishes each month.
In looking at these reports lately the supply of ISK in game has been quite flat. Further, inflation is actually deflation. A small amount of deflation in an economy is fine. A large amount is bad. If one can earn say 10%/annum or more by simply not spending ISK then spending may very well collapse or take a serious hit. This is what happened during the Great Depression. The Fed let the money supply collapse which in turn resulted in consumption spending collapsing and thus taking a garden variety recession into a depression.
And letGÇÖs keep in mind that CCP Quant is using a modified Laspeyres index function which will actually overstate inflation or understate deflation. Ideally a superlative index function should be used like a superlative index function like in the sense of Fisher, T+¦rnqvist, or Walsh. These indices will treat price increases/decreases symmetrically and not result in a bias. That is, if anything deflation is being under-reported.
First I read your post and thought "Who is this and what did he do to Teckos? Why would an economist kidnap Teckos and post that?"
But seeing that you a fielding an issue that is NOT "hurr durr gank the bears" I will entertain this thread.
First, the ISK Sinks is not a bears thing as Shae, to whom everything is carebear caused and faulted to, implies. I have been seeing the ISK sink argument for years and even the PVP/pirate/gank crowd has made it when referring to ship destruction.
But as you seem to bring in real world economics concepts, which has some validity (beware, I might go Full Mises on you if I see the need for it), I must field the question:
Are ISK Sinks to be justified in light of the existence of ISK "faucets"?
My agenda around that question would be to prove that the existence of an ISK sink is justified and necessary in light of there being the existence of the ISK faucet: the ability to "print ISK".
And as you know, governments, and the US Federal Reserve in particular (I feel the ghost of Mises moving at me from down the hall....) sure like to use the printing press.
Arguably the effects of money creation create inflation. I have met many an old timer talking about "earning 5 bucks an hour" back in their day. But that 5 bucks went a long way.. Or did it?
Consider this then: if you exchanged 1 oz silver dollars at the spot price of silver for goods by selling the silver at spot, converting to FRNs, you would in fact be very close (not considering sporadic market demand for a particular good or service at that time) to the purchase price of the goods and services as they were before the departure of the paper dollar from the gold standards in the early 1970s.
Meaning that prices of things are not "going up" but in fact the number of dollars it takes to get these items increases because inflation devalues those existing dollars for commodities that are relatively static in value.
Therefore ISK sinks are justified because there are ISK faucets. Both, game-wise, are not natural. But as we see how devalued the US Dollar has become since 1913, we have IRL the real condition of a monetary faucet without enough sinks.
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Salvos Rhoska
2897
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Posted - 2017.05.05 19:57:44 -
[85] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply.
Why?
What is causing that imbalance?
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.05 20:52:08 -
[86] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply. Why? What is causing that imbalance?
I don't know. Any economy is a complex process so that information is not possessed by any single individual. The information is distributed between all the people in the economy to different degrees. The economy is not like an engine it is more like an ecosystem. So what you see going on in part of the ecosystem can very well be a result of some other phenomenon you are totally unaware of. This is why "managing" an economy (or ecosystem) is so hard. Nobody possess all of the relevant information to actually do it or at least do it well.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
2902
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Posted - 2017.05.06 06:09:23 -
[87] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply. Why? What is causing that imbalance? I don't know. Any economy is a complex process so that information is not possessed by any single individual. The information is distributed between all the people in the economy to different degrees. The economy is not like an engine it is more like an ecosystem. So what you see going on in part of the ecosystem can very well be a result of some other phenomenon you are totally unaware of. This is why "managing" an economy (or ecosystem) is so hard. Nobody possess all of the relevant information to actually do it or at least do it well.
Ok, fair enough.
But if you dont know that, how can you know that the game should cool it with the isk sinks?
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.06 07:06:27 -
[88] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basically, there is an imbalance between the real sector of the economy and the money supply. Why? What is causing that imbalance? I don't know. Any economy is a complex process so that information is not possessed by any single individual. The information is distributed between all the people in the economy to different degrees. The economy is not like an engine it is more like an ecosystem. So what you see going on in part of the ecosystem can very well be a result of some other phenomenon you are totally unaware of. This is why "managing" an economy (or ecosystem) is so hard. Nobody possess all of the relevant information to actually do it or at least do it well. Ok, fair enough. But if you dont know that, how can you know that the game should cool it with the isk sinks?
Because we do know that the money supply is in imbalance with the real sector, we just don't exactly why or to what degree possible explanations play a roll. so we don't need to reduce the money supply. So no new sinks, no attempts to increase the current sinks.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Dracvlad
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
3125
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Posted - 2017.05.06 08:38:48 -
[89] - Quote
I do find myself in agreement with Teckos as to no new ISK sinks are needed.
CCP have reduced the income potential from WH space based on capital escalations so that quite a few people I know have left WH space, IMO that is a good thing.
CCP have also made carrier ratting more active so it costs ISK unless you are on top of it, but I cannot help thinking that a fighter pilot coming to a complete stop after blowing some one up in the middle of a fight is a bit dumb.
I get the impression that CCP are reigning in some of the more over the top ISK fonts and that is a good thing and I like the direction they are going with this.
Rorqual mining, this is causing some adjustment in the way Eve works, but is I think it is a good approach because more people are using capitals and are happy to lose them because they can replace them easier, again a good thing. The problem is that it is causing deflation on T1 hulls, but again that means people will have throw away ships which will create more content.
T2 production will have a serious change incoming which could reverse the overall deflation at least on T2 items, this will be a quite rocky period and fun to watch. The issue is on who will be mining the stuff after it has been ripped from the moon, a number of people have said that this will be dealt with in terms of parasite alliances who control space and rent it out charging more for systems with good moons thus forcing the renter to mine them.
Like economics there are many different views as to why and how and what will be, but no more ISK sinks are needed, I just injected two lots of capital training blocks and that is one hell of an ISK sink.
Anyway this is not an argument point of view just an opinion, I will give Teckos some credit for admitting that he did not know, because I don't either, but I would like to see his opinion.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1688
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Posted - 2017.05.06 08:42:09 -
[90] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:First, the ISK Sinks is not a bears thing as Shae, to whom everything is carebear caused and faulted to, implies. While I don't go killing innocent animals IRL like you do, I must admit, fishing in the forum is too easy.
Not much of a sport at all.
Ah well, what can we do. Throw out bait and it's sure to be gobbled up by all the usuals.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
426
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Posted - 2017.05.06 10:19:48 -
[91] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something. If that is the case, then perhaps it is the lack of sufficient destruction. We need more conflict!
just get all of you null sec alliance to come in with +5 and gank every ship unti your -10, rinse and repeat, I would do pods, you would get more ganking time out of just ships.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8413
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Posted - 2017.05.06 17:39:51 -
[92] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote: While I don't go killing innocent animals IRL like you do..
That you would have that opinion plus the mindset you displayed on the forums is all too fitting. You would be "one of those people". No surprise.
There is no such thing as an innocent animal, BTW. Every wild boar is guilty of not being in mah belly - after being marinated in cola and Jim Beam for three days of course.
I did give up hunting a long time ago, actually. I won't bother to tell you why, your ilk never understand.
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.06 23:35:54 -
[93] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:I do find myself in agreement with Teckos as to no new ISK sinks are needed.
CCP have reduced the income potential from WH space based on capital escalations so that quite a few people I know have left WH space, IMO that is a good thing.
CCP have also made carrier ratting more active so it costs ISK unless you are on top of it, but I cannot help thinking that a fighter pilot coming to a complete stop after blowing some one up in the middle of a fight is a bit dumb.
I get the impression that CCP are reigning in some of the more over the top ISK fonts and that is a good thing and I like the direction they are going with this.
Rorqual mining, this is causing some adjustment in the way Eve works, but is I think it is a good approach because more people are using capitals and are happy to lose them because they can replace them easier, again a good thing. The problem is that it is causing deflation on T1 hulls, but again that means people will have throw away ships which will create more content.
T2 production will have a serious change incoming which could reverse the overall deflation at least the impact on T2 items, though I had the impression that T2 items had gone up in price. This will be a quite rocky period and fun to watch as certain people try to work out how to mae it a passive income for them.... The issue is on who will be mining the stuff after it has been ripped from the moon, a number of people have said that this will be dealt with in terms of parasite alliances who control space and rent it out charging more for systems with good moons thus forcing the renter to mine them.
Like RL economics there are many different views as to why and how and what will be, but no more ISK sinks are needed, I just injected two lots of capital training blocks and that is one hell of an ISK sink.
Anyway this is not an argument point of view just an opinion, I will give Teckos some credit for admitting that he did not know, because I don't either, but I would like to see his opinion.
I wrote this a few pages back.
Quote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO.
I think there maybe validity to those suggestions.
I've also come around to the idea that ISK is not a fiat currency but what some have called a synthetic commodity currency. A synthetic commodity currency is one where the scarcity is "absolute"--i.e. it is not controlled by a central bank, but some other process that nobody controls, but is controlled by many. An example is bitcoin. Nobody controls the growth rate of the number of bitcoin. It is my understanding that the growth of the number of bitcoin is based on processing transactions and securing the network using specialized hardware with a computer. Thus, like mining for gold there is a cost. One is only going to mine for gold, or create bitcoins, up to the point were marginal cost = marginal benefit. So bitcoin shares this trait with gold. However, gold is different in that it has uses aside from being money. Bitcoin does not, its only use is as money kinda like fiat money. Now fiat money is supplied by a central bank which has monopoly power over that supply. And by creating artificial scarcity and committing to that scarcity the central bank ensures the "value" of the money.
Why is ISK a synthetic commodity currency? CCP does not directly control the supply in game. They have given that power over to players...all the players. We are all either creating or destroying ISK based on what we do in game. Those who rat create ISK. When they buy things off the market they destroy ISK. When people in stall an industrial job they are destroying ISK. So the whole thing is this big uncontrolled process of creating and destroying ISK.
In fact, this might be why there is deflation, but the economy his handling it. It might be possible that the deflationary spiral theory holds only for fiat currencies. IDK...I've only recently returned to studying monetary theory, central banks and stuff like that.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6458
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Posted - 2017.05.06 23:38:07 -
[94] - Quote
Agondray wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something. If that is the case, then perhaps it is the lack of sufficient destruction. We need more conflict! just get all of you null sec alliance to come in with +5 and gank every ship unti your -10, rinse and repeat, I would do pods, you would get more ganking time out of just ships.
The issue with ganking is that darn 15 minute timer.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3972
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 00:59:43 -
[95] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:The issue with ganking is that darn 15 minute timer. And the fact that it would do nothing to address what you are talking about. Since the disconnect in EVE's economy is being heavily driven by Nullsec economy, as it can be directly traced to the expansions that gave null all the low end minerals, and the Citadel & EC expansions. Mining increased with those changes even before we consider drone mining, CCP released figures showing Null had overtaken high as the largest ore producer, and that was before the Rorqual & Orca shifts. Since those I imagine Null is likely producing at least twice as much.
Those changes broke the idea that all area's of EVE are interconnected, and instead made one area far more independent than all the other areas, that same area happens to be where the bulk of consumption of materials happens, and where the bulk of isk got printed.
Under the old system, things got consumed in Null, players went from Null to high with isk, and bought in highsec, then went back out to null and consumed.
Under the new system, players produce in null, & then also produce isk which just sits in their wallets for the most part since they are producing, not consuming. And any consumption gets replaced by local production. Meaning the entire economy got thrown out of balance as a result of Null no longer being dependent on High Sec. (Sure, the high sec markets still move & all, but a massive chunk has moved to self sufficient on alliance levels)
There are a number of approaches to change all this, and I still hold that increasing the gank timer, doing some changes to industrial ships & massively reducing the number of dockable highsec stations would do a dramatic increase on meaning of wars & therefore consumption in High Sec space. But the main changes need to affect Null, as that is where the markets get driven by, and where the large scale consumption happens, and those changes need to give Null a reason to go to war and actually fight over space to the point where more titans die than get built a day (& last figures CCP released were 2 titans get built a day, with EC's making that potentially three times faster if I remember the maths right, so we could be up to 6 new titans a day, with similar ratio's of supers, etc all getting built)
However I agree with the basic premise of the initial post, that isk sinks are right now not an issue, though the last economic report indicated they might be in the future again once the consumption issue is addressed (+20 trillion again, now the spike of returning accounts then leaving again has evened out). |
Expendable Unit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 06:09:02 -
[96] - Quote
Back in the days we talked about real issues, now, we talk about ship skins....
Eve is rotting from the inside out and dying TM. |
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2966
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 06:21:49 -
[97] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something. If that is the case, then perhaps it is the lack of sufficient destruction. We need more conflict! then all that isk sitting around becomes a problem and prices would shoot up and we need to talk isk sinks.
I must say I'm excited about the new pve with the blood ship yards, should hopefully result in a lot of destruction, and resource sinks into building faction caps. And then when that AI gets to other npcs hopefully a bit more.
selling officer BCUs! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6872141
@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6459
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Posted - 2017.05.07 06:37:26 -
[98] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It is right there in the economic reports. Look at the in game CPI, it is trending down, has been for quite awhile. What are players doing? IDK, there are alot of players doing alot of different things. Could be a number of things, and they are not mutually exclusive. Some said the real economy is growing at a rate faster than the money supply. Another could be that there is not enough ratting, etc. which is how the money supply grows. Some have suggested there is not enough destruction. These could all be true. Now, the rate of deflation may be "acceptable"--i.e. it is not large enough to cause people to start holding ISK and not buy stuff. But even if that is true, that still does not support having more ISK sinks, IMO. we farm more isk than we can use, and build more than we can sell. It is nice to have a bunch of isk in the wallet and a bunch of ships you could fly. Having a bunch of isk and backup items means it hurts less when you do lose something. If that is the case, then perhaps it is the lack of sufficient destruction. We need more conflict! then all that isk sitting around becomes a problem and prices would shoot up and we need to talk isk sinks. I must say I'm excited about the new pve with the blood ship yards, should hopefully result in a lot of destruction, and resource sinks into building faction caps. And then when that AI gets to other npcs hopefully a bit more.
Well...with the idea that ISK is a synthetic commodity currency, maybe not.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1690
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Posted - 2017.05.07 08:33:36 -
[99] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:There is no such thing as an innocent animal, BTW. Every wild boar is guilty of not being in mah belly - after being marinated in cola and Jim Beam for three days of course. Just as there is no such thing as an innocent miner, yet you cry and ***** and moan here constantly about the sociopathic gankers that shoot at ships that can't shoot back.
There's no issue with hunting. None whatsoever. It's just the hypocrisy of being a miner SJW in a game based on shooting ships, anywhere in space, while having a different attitude outside.
I'll never understand hypocrits I guess, especially the miner SJW type.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
117
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Posted - 2017.05.09 14:57:53 -
[100] - Quote
I'm actually surprised there's been little mention of one key thing that could be a great driver of a deflation in prices.
Asset Safety.
If none of your stuff goes boom when your home does... you don't need to buy new stuff to replace it. I would think that would be a big depressing factor toward demand for goods.
It used to be that if stuff was in a POS and you blew it up... some of it would go "poof". Now, pretty much the only way to remove stuff from the game permanent.y is to have it in a ship that's blown up. I think about the amount of stuff I have in null that will just go to low-sec if the citadel goes away.... I think that has to have an impact.
I'm torn by that... because I want to keep my stuff. But I understand that without that mechanic I'd have to buy new stuff... and on a macro scale that's probably an impact on prices. |
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Dracvlad
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
3138
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Posted - 2017.05.09 18:37:16 -
[101] - Quote
Scialt wrote:I'm actually surprised there's been little mention of one key thing that could be a great driver of a deflation in prices.
Asset Safety.
If none of your stuff goes boom when your home does... you don't need to buy new stuff to replace it. I would think that would be a big depressing factor toward demand for goods.
It used to be that if stuff was in a POS and you blew it up... some of it would go "poof". Now, pretty much the only way to remove stuff from the game permanent.y is to have it in a ship that's blown up. I think about the amount of stuff I have in null that will just go to low-sec if the citadel goes away.... I think that has to have an impact.
I'm torn by that... because I want to keep my stuff. But I understand that without that mechanic I'd have to buy new stuff... and on a macro scale that's probably an impact on prices.
In which case I would have a low number of ships and would have perhaps one or two low cost self defence ships, the doctrines and a single ratter, thus meaning that I would pass on going out to have fun with roaming gangs, but if that is what you want to see then go for it mate, personally I rather like the ability to look at the perfect ship for the job and go out for it and not worry about the overwhelming super and titans of the Goons or PL coming in and head shooting us.
I guess you like stale boring play where no one fights, silly really...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
10985
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Posted - 2017.05.09 19:16:16 -
[102] - Quote
When I first started building freighters, I sold them for 450 million. Now I sell them for 1.3 billion. That's some serious inflation. Usually caused by injecting money into the economy and not taking enough out.
Is it good or bad? To be honest, I don't know and don't care. I'm still turning a profit.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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