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Fluffy Moe
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2017.05.10 18:59:45 -
[31] - Quote
Personally, I'm a big fan of active gameplay and counterplay and against anything that promotes / incentivies inactive gameplay, botting, perma stuns, perma anything really, anything that eliminates and inhibits counterplay.
And I love ECM, love CC in various MMOs, etc. I just love messing with people. But as stated above, I do not want it at the expanse of completely limiting gameplay. Thats just bad, and I am all for toning down any such game mechanics.
Do not eliminate them, but do bring them in line and balance things out better. Make the anti ECM fits easier and more common for the general playerbase and make ECM itself a bit harder to execute properly.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners ChaosTheory.
15819
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:07:57 -
[32] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Did you know that even when you are jammed, Auto Target missiles work AND if you put drones out then fire auto-target missiles, the drones aggro too....so you can sick drones on the guy scramming you even when jammed!??
And if I had been in a non-missile ship?
You weren't in a non-missile ship, but since you asked:
Smartbomb + overheated MWD. point away form guy tackling you, then sling shot back at him, deploy drones, turn on smart bomb for 1 cycle (which will not destroy your drones), aggro from smartbomb on enemy ship will activate drones.
Or just make sure you have an ECCm scripted Sebo and/or give up a low slot for a signal amp.
Or (if a battleship) mount a target lock breaker module (align to something, turn that sucker on and wait for the target lock, spamming warp the whole time).
And if the Ship is important to you, invest in some cheap anti jamming implants like Grails, Talons, Spurs, or Jackals depending on the race of ship you use.
Of course no one actually does any of this because it's easier to complain on a forum about it... |
Captain Tardbar
Hentogaira Miners Alliance
1185
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:29:47 -
[33] - Quote
Would not flying a glorious master race drone boat solve this issue?
Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?
Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
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Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
197
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:30:16 -
[34] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Smartbomb + overheated MWD.
1) As I said, I was perma-scrammed.
2) Even if I wasn't, every ship I fly should equip a smartbomb 'just in case?' What if there's no utility high... just give up a weapon slot?
Quote:Or just make sure you have an ECCm scripted Sebo and/or give up a low slot for a signal amp. Or (if a battleship) mount a target lock breaker module (align to something, turn that sucker on and wait for the target lock, spamming warp the whole time). And if the Ship is important to you, invest in some cheap anti jamming implants like Grails, Talons, Spurs, or Jackals depending on the race of ship you use.
So, smartbombs, ECCM-scripted Sebos, signal amps, target lock breakers, implants, blah blah. Which means when you run into a ship that isn't using jams and isn't using all his slots and implants for anti-jams like you are, you're just as dead.
Anything else I'm supposed to equip every time I undock a ship? |
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
1598
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:31:07 -
[35] - Quote
ECM should break locks and then you can re-lock right away I think that'd be a fair tradeoff.
The 'gameplay' of Eve lol
@lunettelulu7
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners ChaosTheory.
15820
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:36:53 -
[36] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Smartbomb + overheated MWD.
1) As I said, I was perma-scrammed. 2) Even if I wasn't, every ship I fly should equip a smartbomb 'just in case?' What if there's no utility high... just give up a weapon slot? Quote:Or just make sure you have an ECCm scripted Sebo and/or give up a low slot for a signal amp. Or (if a battleship) mount a target lock breaker module (align to something, turn that sucker on and wait for the target lock, spamming warp the whole time). And if the Ship is important to you, invest in some cheap anti jamming implants like Grails, Talons, Spurs, or Jackals depending on the race of ship you use. So, smartbombs, ECCM-scripted Sebos, signal amps, target lock breakers, implants, blah blah. Which means when you run into a ship that isn't using jams and isn't using all his slots and implants for anti-jams like you are, you're just as dead. Anything else I'm supposed to equip every time I undock a ship?
Oh I don't know, maybe a MOBILE DEPOT that lets you change fits almost on the fly? You do know what a mobile depot is right?
That's the problem with so many people who play this game, they give up without trying, and then rationalize why they won't try, but they have noooo problem complaining about it.
I don't get it, do you LIKE exploding, or would you rather make others explode if they mess with you?
YOU WERE IN A MISSILE SHIP. 600 FoF missiles take up like no space. Your 1st thing you should have done after that jamming guy killed your raven was think "man, what can I do next time". When you learn to think that way you then find out that not only do you explode less, you feel frustrated less too. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
1629
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:44:45 -
[37] - Quote
Oh my... there's loads of popcorn in this fred.
Remove standings and insurance.
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Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
198
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:48:41 -
[38] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Oh I don't know, maybe a MOBILE DEPOT that lets you change fits almost on the fly? You do know what a mobile depot is right?
Are you saying that after I've been attacked, perma-scrammed, perma-webbed, and perma-jammed, that I can just drop a mobile depot, refit for ECCM and smartbombs and whatever else right on the spot, then engage?
Quote: Your 1st thing you should have done after that jamming guy killed your raven was think "man, what can I do next time". When you learn to think that way you then find out that not only do you explode less, you feel frustrated less too.
No, because with the number of bad mechanics available for opponents to exploit in-game, your "preparing for the next time" just means you prepared for the wrong thing because the next guy does something else. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3979
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Posted - 2017.05.10 20:40:04 -
[39] - Quote
Just ignore Jenn on this topic. They love to troll people by listing theoretical counters that in the real world aren't practical for most people to use, but shout loudly about them (I mean really, imagine smart bombs anywhere in high sec when at war, that's just asking to die horribly to concord). The Auto targeting missiles is a good one though and worth listening to.
However back on topic. Yes ECM mechanics suck. It's a pure RNG result where your skill in flying your ship doesn't matter, damps you can close range in theory, TD's you can close range or lower transversal. But ECM you just cross your fingers and pray, and that's the bit that sucks. However no-one has managed to ever come up with a replacement idea that actually works, and is distinct in flavour from TD & Damps. Therefore we have the current form of ECM, which CCP have at least made slightly easier to fit to counter. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners ChaosTheory.
15820
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Posted - 2017.05.10 21:22:54 -
[40] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Oh I don't know, maybe a MOBILE DEPOT that lets you change fits almost on the fly? You do know what a mobile depot is right?
Are you saying that after I've been attacked, perma-scrammed, perma-webbed, and perma-jammed, that I can just drop a mobile depot, refit for ECCM and smartbombs and whatever else right on the spot, then engage? Quote: Your 1st thing you should have done after that jamming guy killed your raven was think "man, what can I do next time". When you learn to think that way you then find out that not only do you explode less, you feel frustrated less too.
No, because with the number of bad mechanics available for opponents to exploit in-game, your "preparing for the next time" just means you prepared for the wrong thing because the next guy does something else.
You were in a missile ship. |
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners ChaosTheory.
15820
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Posted - 2017.05.10 21:27:28 -
[41] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Just ignore Jenn on this topic. They love to troll people by listing theoretical counters that in the real world aren't practical for most people to use, but shout loudly about them (I mean really, imagine smart bombs anywhere in high sec when at war, that's just asking to die horribly to concord).
Go ahead then, why don't you tell us what "hypothetical" I came up with that won't work. Then I'll demonstrate for you the time I made it work. And who said anything about smartbombs in high sec? The OPs ship loss was in null.
I mean I get it, you support people not thinking and just running to complain about things they could do something about if they wanted to. I do not support that idea, it's a stupid way to play any game. |
Marika Sunji
Dark-Rising Wrecking Machine.
15
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Posted - 2017.05.10 21:38:31 -
[42] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Oh I don't know, maybe a MOBILE DEPOT that lets you change fits almost on the fly? You do know what a mobile depot is right?
Are you saying that after I've been attacked, perma-scrammed, perma-webbed, and perma-jammed, that I can just drop a mobile depot, refit for ECCM and smartbombs and whatever else right on the spot, then engage? Quote: Your 1st thing you should have done after that jamming guy killed your raven was think "man, what can I do next time". When you learn to think that way you then find out that not only do you explode less, you feel frustrated less too.
No, because with the number of bad mechanics available for opponents to exploit in-game, your "preparing for the next time" just means you prepared for the wrong thing because the next guy does something else.
Web, jam, scram, prop, just how many mid slots did that jackdaw have?
Also, you cannot perma-jam pretty much anything without hull/mod bonuses. Trust me. I fly a falcon with near-perfect skills and moderate bling and I miss a lot of my jams. An unbonused hull? I would not even bother. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3983
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Posted - 2017.05.10 22:27:01 -
[43] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Go ahead then, why don't you tell us what "hypothetical" I came up with that won't work. Then I'll demonstrate for you the time I made it work. And who said anything about smartbombs in high sec? The OPs ship loss was in null.
I mean I get it, you support people not thinking and just running to complain about things they could do something about if they wanted to. I do not support that idea, it's a stupid way to play any game.
And thank you for making the point I meant. Just because you can come up with anecdotal evidence to say that it worked in this very particular situation for you does not mean it is practical for people to use in their situation. The 'counters' to ECM are very situation dependant as to if they apply, and in many cases will harm the ship more than they help. Yes it's great when you have them and when they actually work vs ECM, but trying to tout them as a one size fits all solution is just trolling.
Sure, people should think about it, but ECM as it works currently on RNG is a terrible mechanic and people should complain about the general nature of the mechanic.
Do I have a better replacement, also nope, not one that keeps the general spirit of the idea anyway. But ECM can certainly at least be iterated on in a number of ways, some of which may make it less onerous for both attacker & defender. |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
189
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Posted - 2017.05.10 22:28:55 -
[44] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:ECM should break locks and then you can re-lock right away I think that'd be a fair tradeoff.
The 'gameplay' of Eve lol I could support that. I agree something like that would be a fair compromise. |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
189
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Posted - 2017.05.10 22:32:30 -
[45] - Quote
Marika Sunji wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Brigadine Ferathine wrote:It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.
So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it. Where it up to meGäó I would take the same mechanics used for bombs and just let ships fire in "dummy mode" meaning all projectiles, beams, and missiles, just fire in the same vector as the direction of the ship. This would allow players to do more than just sit and wait to die and permajammers better have tackle to keep their target from turning on them. Plus strafing would be epic in large fights. For even more lols, let players move their turrets and bays manually. Two problems: * Server literally can't handle this - EVE isn't coded like that, every projectile could, at best, be a miniature bomb. Also, forget contact fuses. * TQ would crap itself from the physics calculations required to do that even with relatively few ships. He has the right general idea though. A cheap non costly counter measure is needed. I do not think its fair to require someone to know what they will be fighting before they undock(like drone boats for example). This is why the game has gotten stagnant. It rewards the people who know exactly what they will be fighting and when too much. There is no room for random fighting because it requires too much scheming. |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
189
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Posted - 2017.05.10 22:33:48 -
[46] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Go ahead then, why don't you tell us what "hypothetical" I came up with that won't work. Then I'll demonstrate for you the time I made it work. And who said anything about smartbombs in high sec? The OPs ship loss was in null.
I mean I get it, you support people not thinking and just running to complain about things they could do something about if they wanted to. I do not support that idea, it's a stupid way to play any game.
And thank you for making the point I meant. Just because you can come up with anecdotal evidence to say that it worked in this very particular situation for you does not mean it is practical for people to use in their situation. The 'counters' to ECM are very situation dependant as to if they apply, and in many cases will harm the ship more than they help. Yes it's great when you have them and when they actually work vs ECM, but trying to tout them as a one size fits all solution is just trolling. Sure, people should think about it, but ECM as it works currently on RNG is a terrible mechanic and people should complain about the general nature of the mechanic. Do I have a better replacement, also nope, not one that keeps the general spirit of the idea anyway. But ECM can certainly at least be iterated on in a number of ways, some of which may make it less onerous for both attacker & defender. ^^ this guy gets it. |
Algathas
Wraithguard. The Wraithguard.
83
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:12:39 -
[47] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:He has the right general idea though. A cheap non costly counter measure is needed. I do not think its fair to require someone to know what they will be fighting before they undock(like drone boats for example). This is why the game has gotten stagnant. It rewards the people who know exactly what they will be fighting and when too much. There is no room for random fighting because it requires too much scheming.
I know.. I know.. you have to be a trillionaire and put in massive effort to afford and equip the mighty sensor booster and a script or two to use it in different situations. |
Chewytowel Haklar
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
334
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:19:39 -
[48] - Quote
Sometimes I wish I was like Jenn and had a time machine where I could go back and correct every mistake. I could sit there and analyze every possible outcome and give myself the correct one where I win. There would be no frustration, no loss, and no need to come to the forums to give feedback to those with mortal limitations. Maybe we could even go back in time and ask CCP what they were thinking in regards to the OP's topic and then change history. If only we could have our own perfect little realities where we never make mistakes. |
Orin Solette
The Scope Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:22:50 -
[49] - Quote
CCP seems okay with ECM in it's current form despite it being pretty common knowledge that it's by far the most absurd form of EWAR that takes the most effort to counter and that most ships would not reasonably be able to counter it reliably without fitting specifically for that counter. We've all just coped by accepting that there are no fair match ups in EVE and that you don't fly anything you aren't prepared to lose to some stupid mechanic like this. |
Algathas
Wraithguard. The Wraithguard.
83
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:25:18 -
[50] - Quote
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:Sometimes I wish I was like Jenn and had a time machine where I could go back and correct every mistake. I could sit there and analyze every possible outcome and give myself the correct one where I win. There would be no frustration, no loss, and no need to come to the forums to give feedback to those with mortal limitations. Maybe we could even go back in time and ask CCP what they were thinking in regards to the OP's topic and then change history. If only we could have our own perfect little realities where we never make mistakes.
Asking for feedback about how to win is not the same as complaining that the game should be changed because someone fails to use the plethora of tools already available to avoid the problem. |
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Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
200
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:29:35 -
[51] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote: Are you saying that after I've been attacked, perma-scrammed, perma-webbed, and perma-jammed, that I can just drop a mobile depot, refit for ECCM and smartbombs and whatever else right on the spot, then engage?
Jenn aSide wrote: You were in a missile ship. Stop being pitiful for once, it's not hard to learn how to do things in EVE.
That didn't answer the question. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
200
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Posted - 2017.05.10 23:43:47 -
[52] - Quote
Marika Sunji wrote:
Web, jam, scram, prop, just how many mid slots did that jackdaw have?
I didn't say he had a prop mod, but either way the thing has 5 mid slots.
Quote:Also, you cannot perma-jam pretty much anything without hull/mod bonuses. Trust me. I fly a falcon with near-perfect skills and moderate bling and I miss a lot of my jams. An unbonused hull? I would not even bother.
And the truth is, I was PERMA-JAMMED THE ENTIRE FRICKING TIME, and was unable to get even a single shot off. And the guy acted like it was nothing unusual, because I messaged him afterwards.
Also, since it isn't the only time I've been perma-jammed by an unbonused hull, I tend to think you don't know what you are talking about. |
Alasdan Helminthauge
HC - ChickenSandwich Aporkalypse Now
145
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Posted - 2017.05.11 00:25:49 -
[53] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:And the truth is, I was PERMA-JAMMED THE ENTIRE FRICKING TIME
I just calculated that he has only about 16% probabilty to jam you per circle, or 26% at most in the most extreme situation. And even with 27% jam probabilty and 3 jams on his ship, he has less than 0.3% probabilty to perma-jam you for 2 minutes. Or did your raven only lasted for 20 seconds in front of this small ship?
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Rasputin Demonde
Pagan Products
19
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Posted - 2017.05.11 01:02:31 -
[54] - Quote
Does whining ever stop in this game . I got killed by a ecm boat , that ain't fair , waaa waaa waaa . The minmatar ships are op , waaa waaa waaa . The Amarr ships are to op , waaa waaa waaa . The gallente ships are op , waaa waaa waaa . |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners ChaosTheory.
15821
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Posted - 2017.05.11 01:10:03 -
[55] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: And thank you for making the point I meant. Just because you can come up with anecdotal evidence to say that it worked in this very particular situation for you does not mean it is practical for people to use in their situation.
How in the heck would you know since you haven't tried any of it.? I don't talk about things I haven't tried.
That's my point, people like you and the rest don't even try. You've made the decision you don't like something (in this case, ECM), and have already decided that you are powerless to fight back. Which is why I used the word pitiful, because it is.
I have never, and I mean not once told someone to do something I haven't at least tried. You know WHY I know the overheated MWD + smart bomb trick works? Because in the past I got perma-jammed and killed and I didn't like it. You know how I found out that fof missile activation also activates drones? Yep, same deal, I exploded.
Why in hell are you people playing a game if all you are gonna do is run to ccp every time there is the slightest bit of adversity?
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners ChaosTheory.
15821
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Posted - 2017.05.11 01:12:07 -
[56] - Quote
Rasputin Demonde wrote:Does whining ever stop in this game . I got killed by a ecm boat , that ain't fair , waaa waaa waaa . The minmatar ships are op , waaa waaa waaa . The Amarr ships are to op , waaa waaa waaa . The gallente ships are op , waaa waaa waaa .
Apparently not, and to be quite honest I wonder how some of the folks who visit these forums deal with adversity in real life, because if you can't find a solution to a problem in a game with dozens of ships and hundreds of modules...
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
11004
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Posted - 2017.05.11 01:14:26 -
[57] - Quote
Rasputin Demonde wrote:Does whining ever stop in this game . Nope.
In my decade in EVE I have yet to see anything...ANYTHING...that everyone agreed was either good or bad. Someone is always whining and someone else is gleefully calling them names over it.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
190
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Posted - 2017.05.11 01:24:53 -
[58] - Quote
Algathas wrote:Brigadine Ferathine wrote:He has the right general idea though. A cheap non costly counter measure is needed. I do not think its fair to require someone to know what they will be fighting before they undock(like drone boats for example). This is why the game has gotten stagnant. It rewards the people who know exactly what they will be fighting and when too much. There is no room for random fighting because it requires too much scheming. I know.. I know.. you have to be a trillionaire and put in massive effort to afford and equip the mighty sensor booster and a script or two to use it in different situations. I meant cheap as in fitting. Shouldn't cost you a tons of slots. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8425
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Posted - 2017.05.11 01:46:26 -
[59] - Quote
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:Sometimes I wish I was like Jenn and had a time machine where I could go back and correct every mistake. I could sit there and analyze every possible outcome and give myself the correct one where I win. There would be no frustration, no loss, and no need to come to the forums to give feedback to those with mortal limitations. Maybe we could even go back in time and ask CCP what they were thinking in regards to the OP's topic and then change history. If only we could have our own perfect little realities where we never make mistakes.
It's easy to never make mistakes like Jenn aSide. Just be like Jenn and never undock.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners ChaosTheory.
15822
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Posted - 2017.05.11 03:27:11 -
[60] - Quote
The English translation of the above post "I don't know how to browse zkill". Beause that's the place that will demonstrate how much undock.
(Plot twist, it's way more than the guy who just posting something stupid). |
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