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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1690
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 16:02:12 -
[1] - Quote
I apologize in advance for what is basically a stream of consciousness, but I think it's time to try and put some of the ideas and notions about "witches and shamans" out there into a bit of perspective, given some recent posts on these boards and conversations in other fora. I can barely go a day without seeing claims, misunderstandings, outright fabrications and ignorance proclaimed as universal truths when it comes to our belief systems, mysticism and more. In order to perhaps dispel some of these things, we are going to have to explore a few things in order. To start with, let's have a look at the Tribes.
The Tribes come together, but they are not One.
Call it what you will. A Republic, the Tribes, the People, or whatever else you wish. Just don't fall for the illusion that we share much more than two things: The name and planet of origin. Minmatar may very well be the most diverse people of New Eden, even more so than the Federation. Every tribe is its own entity and culture, within which you'll find countless clans nurturing and developing their own culture and beliefs. From tribe to tribe, clan to clan, planet to planet, continent to continent, even just from a city to a nearby town, there are often significant differences in culture, beliefs and more. As an example, you can look at the Sebiestor on Matar, populating Mikramurka with its myriad clans. I can point to many distinctly unique and different belief systems, rituals and views even only among us northern clans and don't even get me started on the differences between us and the southerner clans. All of us Sebiestor, all of us making a home on the same continent, yet different enough from one another that without the Sebiestor tribe label unifying us, we would be considered distinctly separate 'nations'.
And that is merely a very small part of the Sebiestor tribe, which is a small part of the Tribes or Republic which encompasses worlds and regions vast enough to render a mortal mind numb if it ever tried to truly grasp the enormity of scale involved. Within "the Minmatar", you will find a wider spread of culture, religion, philosophy and mysticism than any other people in New Eden.
This is further exacerbated by the history of our nation. It is easily the youngest of them all, in this iteration. From the Day of Darkness and the almost successful attempts at eradicating our culture and history and until the new founding of our Nation so very recently, we have lost so much knowledge about who we were, what we believed, our philosophies and indeed mysticism and more. This was both a tragedy on its own, but much like a wildfire it prepared the soil for a rebirth of unprecedented scale. Many focused on rediscovering concrete parts of our lost past, others tried to reconstruct what was lost with the help of what we knew, and yet others created entirely new beliefs and philosophies or borrowed from those across New Eden to combine them with each other or our own. A culture and structure of beliefs so diverse and unique rose from the scorched earth as one of the most beautiful and oddly mixed forests you can imagine, comprised of every traditional fir and fern known to us with completely alien and beautiful growths intertwined with them all.
The end result giving the impression of one enormous and ever-changing entity, except on closer inspection it is more akin to an entire ecosystem where each entity lives, feeds upon one another and dies to make room for something else to grow in its stead, with no truly unifying aspect to it at all other than the overarching label of 'Minmatar'.
This makes any call for action encompassing something as vague as 'Minmatar' or 'Republic' fairly pointless. The Tribes can come together given sufficient reason, I'm sure. Something like that would be one of the most fearsome notions New Eden could ever face, and we can only hope it'll never come to pass for the sake of everyone involved.
Continued below... |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1690
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 16:02:25 -
[2] - Quote
Examples within even a single relatively small clan.
The irony of me speaking on such a broad subject while rejecting the ability of any one person to speak universally of the Minmatar ways, beliefs, religions, philosophies and so on is not lost on me, but suffice it to say that I recognize and demonstrate this futility while refraining from trying to speak of the ways of others in the Tribes. For specific details, I can only speak as a Volur-trained Gripdjur.
Our clan's structure is very broadly defined by the three circles, each within the other, overlaid by three pillars meeting in the middle to hold them all together. I won't bore you with the social structures, but these three cultural and spiritual pillars are the Elders, the Shamans and the Volur. The secular, the spiritual and the seers, if we oversimplify things to the point where it's technically right but almost entirely wrong in reality.
Within these small subsets of the clan, you'll find even more subsets acting together, both in opposition and support of each other in the name of balance. You'll find fervent believers among the Elders, atheist shamans and volur, ritual occultists and mysticists, those who pay lip service and those who structure everything in their lives around their drug-fueled visions of spirits and ancestors. The mystic herbalist that through their education and experience as molecular scientists expand the minds and lives of their customers through ritual, narcotic herbs and trances, and the engineer that communes with the spirit of the machine to find out which spot of the panel he should be whacking with a wrench to get it running properly again. This is not a joke by the way. I once read a user-written set of instructions for a particular machine which started with over a full page of litany and chanting, application of sacred oil to the brow and tip of the nose etc, and at the end there was "... and then you press the button labeled 'on'."
This is one relatively small clan, among a multitude of northern Mikramurkan clans, which are themselves distinct from the southerners on the continent and so on. Calling for the Gripdjur to come together on a matter of spiritualism, occultism, mysticism, religion or belief would be utter folly. The clan is quite capable of coming together, just like the Tribe is quite capable of getting the clans to come together and spirits help me even the Tribes are capable of coming together if New Eden were to demand such a horrifying thing to occur... but it wouldn't be in a matter of ritual or belief.
Even the two words most universal to our entire people are not actually all that universal. "Never again" holds a special place in the hearts of almost all of us, but even that has fervent opposition from some that believe it should actually happen again. Why is this important though? Why am I rambling on here on the IGS in such a longwinded manner in response to someone calling for 'witches' and so on to hurl curses and hexes, and using the spirits of the land or ancestors as some form of mystic ammunition against a crimson fool? Well...
Continued below... |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1690
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 16:03:29 -
[3] - Quote
The importance of belief and what is real.
Pretty much everyone in New Eden believes in something that is demonstrably not 'real' or capital T 'truth'. Take this entire cluster, grind it up to its most base elements and you won't find a single molecule of 'beauty' or 'dignity'. Give the most detailed analysis of an infomorph or the most detailed imagery taken of a brain to a million scientists and they won't be able to find 'mercy' or 'loyalty' in it. These things are not real in any truly measurable objective way, and yet they demonstrably are real in the minds of humanity across New Eden.
Are the spirits of the land and elements real? The spirits of the machine? The spirits of our ancestors? Some will say yes, some will say no and a few will say with complete certainty... we don't know. I have through my training and practicing of Volur arts discovered, felt and connected with the spirits of the lands. On the stage, as countless thousands of fervent believers and fans howl and shout before me, I have felt the overwhelming tidal wave of their spirits wash over me, blending and mixing with my own before we once more separate and go on our different paths through New Eden, renewed and strenghtened by each other. I have seen the shackles and chains around another's spirit, as the trance opened my Sight as a Volur. I have danced the shadow dance with the dozens of shades of my potential selves, some faded and barely visible as my past and choices have made those paths impossible, and others as visible and vibrant as a living breathing human being.
Do I believe these things are real? This does in fact not really matter.
We are, in spite of what certain numbskulls here on the IGS and other places try to portray us as - yes, I'm talking of Minmatar here - , one of the most advanced societies in New Eden. We have built a massive multiple region-spanning Nation in mere decades. We can do so much with so very little that some of our engineering feats are genuinely marveled at by outsiders. In short, primitives or savages we are not. As a people, we don't tend towards superstition.
So how does that blend with our enormous, diverse spread of eclectic and fanciful spiritualism and mysticism? Well, it's simple. We examine that just as we do everything else. Rationally.
Believe in the spirits or not, there's no denying the measurable and demonstrable effect of a ritual or a chant or a drug-induced vision or any other such thing you were to examine. Scans of the brain show the physical changes as someone devotes themselves to meditative trances, and performance metrics will show the impact of a battlechanter strengthening the resolve of the warriors about to go into battle. It doesn't matter if you believe that the Voluval is a manifestation of destiny or if it's a scientific reading of your neurology and genetics which then assigns you an archetype. It doesn't matter whether you believe the spirits are at your back, or if you attribute these effects to other psychological or sociological phenomena. What does matter, is identifying and appreciating what is demonstrably and objectively real. The effects.
Dignity doesn't have to be 'real' in order to recognize the importance of preserving it for the old mother in her twilight years. Beauty doesn't have to be 'real' to be appreciated. Religion, belief, spirits and more don't have to be real for us to use them all to rise higher and achieve more than we do now. What we do need to remember, is that the effects must be, and that there is so much difference between groups of people that what does have an effect on someone might not have any effect on another.
Calling for 'Minmatar' to start slinging 'curses and hexes' is calling for so many of them to engage in what they would consider false. This is the crux of it. This is why I detest such grand calls for unity, be it for or against anything, among our people. Every single such call further fractures and pushes us apart. Every claim about 'the Minmatar', 'Republic' or 'Tribes' will be a swing and a miss for an enormous amount of people lumped under that name and these people will likely resent it.
Which parts of our beliefs, philosophies or spirituality are real? All of them. Someone among us believes enough that it has a measurable effect on their lives, no matter which part of the forest you choose to question. Are any of them actually real? No one knows. And this then will have to be the conclusion of this rant, because I'm getting hungry and in dire need of coffee...
So to conclude...
Don't call for the Tribes, Republic or Minmatar to be or do any one thing. I was once one of those people who couldn't see past that name that bound us together to all the countless things that keep us apart. Even our subsets like 'practicing Minmatar mystics' will be diametrically opposed to each other in beliefs and viewpoints across the enormous vastness of our culture and nation. This is not the strength of our Nation. We do not unify from above.
We come together from a stronger place. Each other. The family that bonds together in belief, spirituality and strength. The family that bonds with another family in the same way. These families coming together with the guidance of a chosen Shaman, or a Volur, an Elder or whatever else. These groups coming together in the clan. The clans bound together by countless little bonds and Tribes bound together by the same.
Our unity is one of fierce individualism, clashing against other individuals until the bonds of family form and the cycle continues until you have built the Tribes.
The Tribes will not move because of a call to all. They move when we call to family and our kin, and the call goes upwards from the root. Not shouted down from orbit.
That is when our enemies have true cause to Fear the Tribes. |
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
432
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 16:47:10 -
[4] - Quote
Thank you. Well said. Beautifully said. And so important to remember.
The only part that might not be so accurate, as I see, is this part: "Minmatar may very well be the most diverse people of New Eden, even more so than the Federation." Before I lived in the Federation and learned more about how it works, I thought Minmatar diversity might rival the Federation's. It doesn't. Minmatar diversity approaches Federation diversity though, due in portion to how many Minmatar live in the Federation. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1712
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 16:55:57 -
[5] - Quote
It is a fair criticism, given what I should really put at the end of every post I ever write: "Disclaimer, this poster could in fact be fallible and wrong, in spite of overwhelming indications to the contrary and the sudden and surprising classification of her posterior as an official divine entity on a minor world on the edge of Federation space."
... it's a legal matter after a concert broke open the crust of a volcano, insurance matters and 'acts of god' clauses. Don't ask. |
Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1694
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 17:11:36 -
[6] - Quote
You mean you don't dance around a fire going oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang?
Colour me disappointed, those promotional pamphlets from the RSS had me going all these years.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3633
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 17:19:55 -
[7] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:You mean you don't dance around a fire going oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang?
Colour me disappointed, those promotional pamphlets from the RSS had me going all these years.
I was going to do this the last time I spent any time with anyone resembling a Volur... but she tazed me, long before I ever got to the bonfire part of the evening. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1720
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 17:29:42 -
[8] - Quote
You're surprisingly close to the shadow dance ritual there, Utari. I did the dancing, a shaman did the chanting albeit not quite in those words and the specific herb cocktail in the bonfire combined with the aforementioned chants and dance eventually led to the trance state allowing me to see the shades of my potential selves.
The barely visible ghost of a mother holding a child, made impossible by the infertility induced by... well, that's not relevant here. The solemn volur in traditional robes providing wisdom to her people by figuratively smacking them upside the head and making them realize they can think for themselves to solve their problems, yet somehow taking the credit. The bitter and forgotten one-armed worker on a backwater Imperial planet. The psychotic and gleeful exiled warlord ravaging the nearby settlements. The cold and cruel assassin for the Network. The happily married hydroponics manager that always felt like something was missing. All of them dancing around the bonfire with me.
I won't speak of what the ritual is for, nor how it ended, as that is knowledge for only a certain circle of the Gripdjur, but yes Utari. Some of us do in fact dance around a fire. If you look hard enough, you might even find someone going "oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang". I would probably not hold my breath for "doh doh doh doh doh doh doh" though. |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
936
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 18:14:25 -
[9] - Quote
If you were not able to tell, Literia was screwing with Nauplius.
As strength goes.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1729
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 18:24:29 -
[10] - Quote
In this day and age, satire often becomes unrecognizable from what all too real people actually believe. One crimson fool believing he might be cursed is not worth the throng of people who certainly would take it as confirmation of primitive and savage views.
Besides, this little ramble has been rumbling for some time now, long before the call for witches and hexes. |
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Lasairiona Raske
Raske Holdings
380
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 18:42:59 -
[11] - Quote
Again, mark it down in the history books, I agree with Miz. Nauplius has no head for satire. Everything you tell him will be taken at face value.
Are you a devil or an angel
Sent here from heaven or from hell?
Sweet temptress, I'm wrapped in your tangles
Can't find my way out of your spell
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3637
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 19:15:40 -
[12] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Besides, this little ramble has been rumbling for some time now, long before the call for witches and hexes.
I know I've got a copy (with credit) saved now for the next time someone decides to get overly-general. Saves me a bunch of typing, and you've got much better examples than my spacer-butt would've thought of. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
901
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 05:38:46 -
[13] - Quote
I don't find that rambling at all, I find it very clearly and excellently put. (Ok, I admit I skipped the part about snoweater customs because well I would , and I don't know what this 'witches and hexes' context even is.)
This is, incidentally, part of my dislike of the current government. The rhetoric about a return to "a true Minmatar" or a "true Tribal" way as if 1) there was any one such way or 2) they knew what it was, irks me to no end. Make a new way putting together some customs and traditions you know of and what seem to work in this situation? Fine. That's how traditions work between clans; when you need a new solution you look for ways that feel True to all involved, that you can put together to achieve it. That's what we attempted with the Republic to begin with (though with variable success, it can be argued; including the Feds as an ally shaping it seems to have been a bit much for many). Try and push your favorite way as the way? Go ef yourself, you don't get to tell me what my true way is. There have been feuds for less.
A new capsuleer coming to space from some sheltered clan background and imagining his/her clan's ways are universal, or a recently liberated person having taught one way and thinking that is the end of it, that I can take, though I'll roll my eyes a little and might use some harsh language if they persist. But a government doing the same? No thanks.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
905
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 09:09:38 -
[14] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:You mean you don't dance around a fire We do in fact, though where you get the chant you quoted I have no idea. Bonfires and dances are a fairly common element of celebrations and of rituals.
Where I come from you'll find the sort of rowdy stuff that has given inspiration to many an Amarrian folk story during the midyear feast. That is traditionally a time for making new associations and renewing old ones, and the celebration that follows the more solemn business of contract-writing and trade-dealing can get a tad wild. |
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
291
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 09:16:43 -
[15] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:You mean you don't dance around a fire ... and the celebration that follows the more solemn business of contract-writing and trade-dealing can get a tad wild. Is there hugging involved? |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2379
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 09:29:21 -
[16] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:You mean you don't dance around a fire We do in fact, though where you get the chant you quoted I have no idea. Bonfires and dances are a fairly common element of celebrations and of rituals. Where I come from you'll find the sort of rowdy stuff that has given inspiration to many an Amarrian folk story during the midyear feast. That is traditionally a time for making new associations and renewing old ones, and the celebration that follows the more solemn business of contract-writing and trade-dealing can get a tad wild.
I understand the part about dancing around the fire, but dancing around the fire naked and with dried leaves?
I am very sure the Sebiestor doesn't do this, at least not originally. Come on, have you seen what Mikramurka's like?
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1757
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 09:30:58 -
[17] - Quote
Do... do you not know how fire works? |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75247
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 09:34:18 -
[18] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Do... do you not know how fire works? I hope the ones who live in stations do. As someone who was lucky to grow up planetside I have danced around many bonfires.
Death rides a fast C4mel
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
905
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 09:55:59 -
[19] - Quote
Yes, I have seen what Mikramurka is like, I am from there. I can confirm that temperatures do reach above freezing point for months at end during summer and no, we do not tend to dress in dried leaves (insert your own joke about snow eaters here). And yes, hugging (and more) is definitely involved.
This is getting derailed now, sorry Mizhara. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1757
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 10:03:16 -
[20] - Quote
It's okay, I can't expect better from southerners now, can I? Needing above freezing temperatures for some quality naked time, tsk tsk. |
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Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2379
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 10:22:23 -
[21] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's okay, I can't expect better from southerners now, can I? Needing above freezing temperatures for some quality naked time, tsk tsk.
We did naked time in shelters.
Also, what's a bonfire to do against howling winter winds especially once we start leaving steepes territory into mountain territory? North Mikramurka doesn't even have a summer.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
905
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 10:33:07 -
[22] - Quote
Found the context.
Now I am wondering that since I am a ghost, both technically (dead several times over but without anyone having performed the rites of letting me go), and legally (yes, my clan's deranged legal dept has actually used that as grounds to pass on my planetside assets to my adopted heir to secure them from my father's birth people - welcome to Rhiannon), could I actually invoke a death curse on every emergency cloning?
This is an important question, obviously. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
905
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 10:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's okay, I can't expect better from southerners now, can I? Needing above freezing temperatures for some quality naked time, tsk tsk. Also, what's a bonfire to do against howling winter winds especially once we start leaving steepes territory into mountain territory? North Mikramurka doesn't even have a summer. I believe even snow eater country gets non-windy days.
That's the thing about planets. They are huge, so things vary. And they got weather, and seasons. Unlike stations, you can't just say this place is like that, it's got snow and howling winds. Because even if it does, most days, some days it does not.
That said, I suppose actual southerners would claim we don't have summers either. Having seen other places, I describe Rhiannon to have four seasons, all of which suck. |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75248
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 11:07:16 -
[24] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Found the context.
Now I am wondering that since I am a ghost, both technically (dead several times over but without anyone having performed the rites of letting me go), and legally (yes, my clan's deranged legal dept has actually used that as grounds to pass on my planetside assets to my adopted heir to secure them from my father's birth people - welcome to Rhiannon), could I actually invoke a death curse on every emergency cloning?
This is an important question, obviously.
It is an issue I have struggled with as well. Some parts of my clan are doing whatever they can to get me expelled, despite the effort and ISK I have put into terraforming projects both for the benefit of the people and the nature. Luckily I still have support from my family and the majority of my clan. And hearing your story makes me grateful of that.
If I understand your question correctly you wish to use emergency cloning so circumvent the suicide part of certain death rituals. I have to warn you and advice you against it. It is dangerous waters and it will only bring you closer to becomming something vile and twisted like a certain other person on the IGS who kills innocent for his 'God'. There are many other ways to resolve the issue / get your revenge. And I would gladly assist you as long as we find a way that doesn't end in blood.
Death rides a fast C4mel
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
909
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 11:16:42 -
[25] - Quote
No, I was thinking more on the terms that if I die violently anyway (which I do in an emergency cloning), do I have to actually stay dead to qualify for cursing someone's Fate? I am not planning to intentionally kill myself (temporally or permanently), just using the opportunity.
I should probably clarify I don't actually really believe in death curses, though they are in the mythology I subscribe to.
Re the more serious stuff, I spent over a decade struggling with trying to fit my spaceside life into that of a very trad, high-class Mikramurka business/legal clan. It did not really work out in the end, but I've made my peace with it. If you want to talk about it sometime, feel free to contact me. |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75252
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 12:30:33 -
[26] - Quote
Well that is a good question. I must admit I often curse the ones killing me but I am not sure if it has any effect, other than my allies blasting them to bits and pieces but that tend to happen anyways.
It saddens me that you did not manage to fit in with your clan. But I am grateful that you still have found peace. It should be up to you if you want to talk about it. I don't want to dive into your past for my own sake. However I will always be happy to lend an ear if you need someone to talk with about it or if you need guidance.
Death rides a fast C4mel
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3650
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 13:15:05 -
[27] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Do... do you not know how fire works? I hope the ones who live in stations do. As someone who was lucky to grow up planetside I have danced around many bonfires.
Yeah, we can't do that on-station. We tried dancing around a water boiler from the heating system once when I was fifteen, but the adults caught us made us fix the reactor venting manifold instead, since we were so eager to spend time in a hot, dangerous environment. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3650
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 13:21:02 -
[28] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: And they are quite nuts with the "watch me ignore cold" bravado (while obviously also being the masters of staying safe in it with proper equipment - the logic of these things is funny sometimes).
Gotta know the rules to get away with breaking them!
Quote: The thing about planets is that they are huge
They're creepy! Asteroids so fat that the air itself is trying to crush you, but if it wasn't, there'd be nothing holding it in! It ain't natural, I tell you.
I mean, I know it's actually natural, but... THAT'S JUST CREEPY.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1761
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 13:35:28 -
[29] - Quote
The existence of Sebiestor more inept at being Sebiestor than the southerners is something I refuse to deal with at the moment. |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75254
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 13:46:39 -
[30] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: The thing about planets is that they are huge
They're creepy! Asteroids so fat that the air itself is trying to crush you, but if it wasn't, there'd be nothing holding it in! It ain't natural, I tell you. I mean, I know it's actually natural, but... THAT'S JUST CREEPY.
I have known people who grew up on stations and then had some severe attacks of agoraphobia the first time they are outside on temperate planets. It is perfectly understandable. They have been used to living in more tight quarters and having a wall (or a spacesuit) between them and the nothingness of space. So being exposed to the openness of a planet and not having anything between them and space aside from air that just seem to stick around must be one hell of a change.
When I have such visitors at my home planet I always make sure to be ready to deal with the panic attack. It helps to have them look at the ground while walking outside and then slowly looking upwards while getting used to the openess. However I keep a large opaque sack at hand in case they need to be calmed down. Pulling it over their head can help them calm down. An action that ironically would cause panic for some of us who grew up planet side or are used to it.
The brain is weird.
Death rides a fast C4mel
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1761
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 13:51:32 -
[31] - Quote
Hmm. A legitimate reason to go around sticking Sebbies in sacks. I am intrigued and hereby subscribe to your newsletter. |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75256
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 13:58:12 -
[32] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Hmm. A legitimate reason to go around sticking Sebbies in sacks. I am intrigued and hereby subscribe to your newsletter. Well I suppose I can offer you an apprenticeship. So you can be an Anti-agoraphobia Sebbie Sacker (A.S.S. for short).
Just make sure that you use a material they can breathe through. When under panic they tend to use up much oxygen so the supply of air may be shorter than you think. And killing your clients tend to be bad for business.
Edit: I realize that I have to be careful what I say. After all I am the only non-sebbie on this page.
Death rides a fast C4mel
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3651
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 13:59:25 -
[33] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Hmm. A legitimate reason to go around sticking Sebbies in sacks. I am intrigued and hereby subscribe to your newsletter.
And this is why I don't go dirtside around you.
I mean, that, and that fact that I'd probably need the sack. I think I've been on a planet fewer than half a dozen times now, and I try to make sure I stay inside so I can forget I'm on a fatsteroid.
That said, there's some really nice scenery, and the idea of a whole ocean to swim around in is interesting (large bodies of water just sitting around not doing anything are also very weird, but intriguing). At some point, I probably should work on getting over this aversion. |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75256
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 14:05:34 -
[34] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:That said, there's some really nice scenery, and the idea of a whole ocean to swim around in is interesting (large bodies of water just sitting around not doing anything are also very weird, but intriguing). At some point, I probably should work on getting over this aversion. If you want my help. Let me know. And the sack is only for last resort if I fail to calm them down.
Death rides a fast C4mel
|
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
291
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 14:31:03 -
[35] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Arrendis wrote:That said, there's some really nice scenery, and the idea of a whole ocean to swim around in is interesting (large bodies of water just sitting around not doing anything are also very weird, but intriguing). At some point, I probably should work on getting over this aversion. If you want my help. Let me know. And the sack is only for last resort if I fail to calm them down. Sebbie in a sack... So many things... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3653
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 14:32:36 -
[36] - Quote
Mizhir wrote: If you want my help. Let me know. And the sack is only for last resort if I fail to calm them down.
I'll think about it. And in Mizhara's case, I think the sack would be the step between 'I had to taser her, she was freaking out' and 'and then I tasered her again, to test the conductivity of the sack'. |
Mizhir
TURN LEFT HYDRA RELOADED
75257
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 14:51:20 -
[37] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Mizhir wrote: If you want my help. Let me know. And the sack is only for last resort if I fail to calm them down.
I'll think about it. And in Mizhara's case, I think the sack would be the step between 'I had to taser her, she was freaking out' and 'and then I tasered her again, to test the conductivity of the sack'. Noted. I will make sure that neither Mizhara nor tasers will be within range.
Death rides a fast C4mel
|
Haru'kai Vidaraltyr
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 15:09:58 -
[38] - Quote
I'll never understand how those of you from the far north cope with the cold. I used to get the shivers even during the gentle desert night on those clan pilgrimages to honour the ancestors deep in the Sobaki.
Of course, the Vidaraltyr left the Great Sand Desert for the Great Wet Desert many generations ago. The equatorial seas are always warm, warm as blood.
Of course, on the endless sea beyond Coricia, there's not much sense in fire dancing - nakedness for sure, but we dance around the totem mast when the spirits manifest themselves in storms, lighting up the mast with coruscations of plasma in bright blues and purples that dance with us and honour our Wayfinders. The crash of waves, the howls of warriors, the otherworldly lights, the dance of rope and sail, brings true transcendence. Shadows of storm clouds, lightning-lit spirit masks of painted ebon, the bitter tang of weed and sea.
My blood quickens just at the remembrance.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
912
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 16:20:28 -
[39] - Quote
Well that escalated quickly. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1768
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 16:21:53 -
[40] - Quote
Just get in the sack. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3667
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 16:43:04 -
[41] - Quote
After all this idiocy with Napkins, I might just ask to hide in the damned sack. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2381
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 17:19:42 -
[42] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's okay, I can't expect better from southerners now, can I? Needing above freezing temperatures for some quality naked time, tsk tsk. Also, what's a bonfire to do against howling winter winds especially once we start leaving steepes territory into mountain territory? North Mikramurka doesn't even have a summer. I believe even snow-eater country gets non-windy days. And they are quite nuts with the "watch me ignore cold" bravado (while obviously also being the masters of staying safe in it with proper equipment - the logic of these things is funny sometimes). The thing about planets is that they are huge, so things vary. And they got weather, and seasons. Unlike stations, you can't just say this place is like that, it's got snow and howling winds. Because even if it does, most days, some days it does not. That said, I suppose actual southerners would claim we don't have summers either. Having seen other places, I describe Rhiannon to have four seasons, all of which suck.
Considering that my family home is inside a starship hulk superstructure, sand barriers and underground complexes surrounded by kilometers upon kilometers of regolith, we learnt very early on that one does not tempt death with environmental hazards. Who wants their name to end up in the Remembrance Hall with cause of death being, "Ran around outside naked."
So the idea that some moron would run around naked in the Mikramurka steppes or mountains makes me want to hurl.
Well, as I understand it, the further north and the higher ones go, the more of a default state 'howling winds' become.
As for 'masters of staying safe in it' part, well, lots of practice and many other people's deaths to learn from. It's kinda how so many of us ended up being good with engineering. Have to come up with ways to survive eaten by snow when outside on long hunting expeditions during the long night and being able to sleep without freezing to death or just finding/growing food in general, you know?
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
916
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 17:30:10 -
[43] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:So the idea that some moron would run around naked in the Mikramurka steppes or mountains makes me want to hurl. Yea well, snow-eaters are crazy, you know. You more or less have to be, to live where they do, no?
I confess we soft southerners do dress up even during midyear, if the weather so dictates. But it's nicer if people can go in light gear and show off tattoos, of course. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1769
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 17:41:14 -
[44] - Quote
The simplest of clothes and a knife is all you need to survive even the worst of storms up there for a good while, and the most basic of gear will extend that to 'the entire winter season' if you know what you're doing. I don't really understand what kind of backwater would find any of that difficult. You'd have to go millennia into the pre Day of Darkness past for tech to be so bad that basic survival up north would be even difficult.
I mean, however much I make fun of the southerners I'm willing to bet I could throw Elsebeth a basic kit and dump her out of a skimmer up north and she'd be just fine. Liable to kill me on sight, but fine.
You seem to have made a fetish out of knucklewalking primitiveness, Elmund, but the rest of us do live in the modern world. Spirits below, our infrastructure and basic tech levels on Matar tends to be even higher than the other nations, simply because we built almost all the infrastructure and settlements so very recently, instead of maintaining and endlessly updating much older infrastructure and settlement.
So some of us enjoy taking on Matar's cold plains and mountains with a bit of challenge thrown in, but it's hardly all that difficult to do it in pretty much perfect safety. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2382
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 17:53:32 -
[45] - Quote
It is one thing to survive alone out in a hazardous environment and another to build a proper settlement with a growing population that lasts for many, many generations. Especially in a region where potable water is something you might have to boil in a pot, which requires fuel sources that are itself not very flammable unless specially prepared. And the soil being especially hard to farm because of general infertility and how few crop plants actually can handle environments like these. Oh, and let's not forget that density of wildlife is pretty low for most parts, what can be hunted generally migrates in herds or packs, and there's plently of competition to go around. And the 'little wind' has a very nasty habit of killing people off via hypothermia. I'm not talking about gentle breezes, but full on blizzards.
A knuckle-dragging ape would have died in the Mikramurka regions ages ago. As would many, many other things. There's a very good reason ecological diversity drop rapidly as one goes further and further away from the equator. If anything, one needs to either be especially hardy or really darn creative (or far more likely, both) to actually live here just fine.
You seem to forget that the Sebiestor didn't start out with modern tech and we were already living in the Mikramurka steppes.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1772
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:04:45 -
[46] - Quote
So self-imposed primitive savagery is your bag, allright. I'll stick with the method my clan - and I suspect most others - used, i.e. not building up from rubbing sticks together or whatever it is you're imagining was the settlement method of choice up north.
Generators and a whole plethora of energy sources are portable, cheap, incredibly easy to transport up north along with all the necessities for any sized settlement. This along with the most basic of hydroponics and literally thousands of years old knowledge of the most basic of agriculture sorts out settlements within a timeframe so short they might as well have popped into existence overnight.
From there the expansion into taking advantage of the rich natural resources up north that becomes available when you have something more advanced than a stick comes along within mere months.
You don't actually think anyone relied on hunting game for survival the last few hundred years? Relying on local fuel sources like... what, wood for energy and heat?
Elmund, what bloody century are you from? |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2383
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:08:08 -
[47] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:So self-imposed primitive savagery is your bag, allright. I'll stick with the method my clan - and I suspect most others - used, i.e. not building up from rubbing sticks together or whatever it is you're imagining was the settlement method of choice up north.
Generators and a whole plethora of energy sources are portable, cheap, incredibly easy to transport up north along with all the necessities for any sized settlement. This along with the most basic of hydroponics and literally thousands of years old knowledge of the most basic of agriculture sorts out settlements within a timeframe so short they might as well have popped into existence overnight.
From there the expansion into taking advantage of the rich natural resources up north that becomes available when you have something more advanced than a stick comes along within mere months.
You don't actually think anyone relied on hunting game for survival the last few hundred years? Relying on local fuel sources like... what, wood for energy and heat?
Elmund, what bloody century are you from?
I was talking about the Sebiestor surviving the Mikramurka before the Minmatar Empire was a thing, and you are talking about Sebiestor TODAY?
Can't you read contexts or are you so up your arse with your bias against me that you presume I was talking about modern Sebiestor the entire time?
Heck, if we were living like our ancestors from way back then, my Clan wouldn't had even gotten to Skarkon and I wouldn't even be posting this right now.
Reread the darn thing. We didn't start with generators, we didn't have skyscrapers, we didn't even have hydroponics when the first Sebiestors came out into the open one day and found that there's frost, infertile soil, hungry predators, long nights and lots of hungry predators and very little to go around. We survived that, got to the point where we connected with other Tribes, to the point where the Sebiestor started figuring out the way to beat gravity and put things in space, to the point where we apply the lessons learnt from surviving places like Mikramurka to colonise worlds that can be just as, if not far more inhospitable than our home region, then got ourselves manacled by the Day of Darkness.
It takes quite alot of work getting to that point.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
917
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:13:37 -
[48] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I mean, however much I make fun of the southerners I'm willing to bet I could throw Elsebeth a basic kit and dump her out of a skimmer up north and she'd be just fine. Liable to kill me on sight, but fine. In complete seriousness, yea, you probably still could. Been years since I've done any of that **** because gods and spirits, I like sleeping in a bed with sheets in it and morning coffee that does not require me to set up a camp stove with freezing finger, but ugh, heritage and classical upbringing and all that.
Right on the mark on the liability of violent death, too. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2383
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:23:13 -
[49] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I mean, however much I make fun of the southerners I'm willing to bet I could throw Elsebeth a basic kit and dump her out of a skimmer up north and she'd be just fine. Liable to kill me on sight, but fine. In complete seriousness, yea, you probably still could. Been years since I've done any of that **** because gods and spirits, I like sleeping in a bed with sheets in it and morning coffee that does not require me to set up a camp stove with freezing finger, but ugh, heritage and classical upbringing and all that. Right on the mark on the liability of violent death, too.
If going northwards, I wouldn't really advise going out into all that frost and snow by yourself but if you insist, bring a shovel along. The further north you go, the more you are going to need it. As it turns out, if you dig under, you are able to keep the heat going without worrying about getting buried by blizzards or avalanches (mountainous regions) and that shovel will also allow you to dig yourself out.
And wildlife generally fears fire. Or things resembling fire.
Except the corovids. Bloody blighters tend to follow camps around. For the leftovers, and unlucky sod who froze their balls off.
Steppes at any time without winter is downright pleasant.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
917
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:32:15 -
[50] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:some camping advice for tourists in snow-eater country Thanks for the advice, buddy, but I thought I made it pretty clear that I 1) would know how, but 2) have zero intent to actually do it, because really, seriously, not my idea of fun, and I am gratefully old enough that no one can make me suffer in the nature in order to teach me to appreciate my heritage and the raw beauty of the steppes or whatever. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3667
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:35:19 -
[51] - Quote
Well, I'll just say that the Stj+¦rnauga still live in our native environment in the kind of harsh, primitive conditions that prevailed when the very first of us made our long trek to new lands beyond the reach of our arms.
We still use the same extremely basic tools to generate heat, to procure food, to ensure potable water, and to care for our sick.
Because really, fusion reactors, station distribution services, plumbing, and med-bays haven't really changed all that much when we compare it to 'rub two sticks together for fire and then throw them at an antlered ungulate to try to get cooked meat'.
I mean, that's how you guys do it, right? You light the sticks on fire, stick the animal with them, and then chase down the burning steak? |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2383
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:39:21 -
[52] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:some camping advice for tourists in snow-eater country Thanks for the advice, buddy, but I thought I made it pretty clear that I 1) would know how, but 2) have zero intent to actually do it, because really, seriously, not my idea of fun, and I am gratefully old enough that no one can make me, in order to teach me to appreciate my heritage and the raw beauty of the steppes or whatever.
Considering that I grew up in a hostile environment where a single technical glitch could be all it takes to kill us all, yeah, I can see why you wouldn't want to vacation in a place that's trying to kill you.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2383
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 18:41:17 -
[53] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
I mean, that's how you guys do it, right? You light the sticks on fire, stick the animal with them, and then chase down the burning steak?
Nah. Those things are usually already dead before we throw them into a heat source.
Because leaving them alive would mean getting us killed. Teeth and claws and antlers and having extremely foul tempers and weighing as much as a LAV and all that. Kill them, perform their last rites, dismember them then cook them.
Also, don't touch the liver.
Well, there's goats but they are very jumpy and will light the house on fire if put into a fire before killing them first.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3667
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 19:21:24 -
[54] - Quote
My way sounds less boring. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1743
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 20:05:58 -
[55] - Quote
A thoughtful dialogue Ms. Mizhara Del'thul, that was as informative as it was engaging. I thank you, I learned something of value in your discussions.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Oland Jan
Antumbra
25
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 03:50:48 -
[56] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Thank you.
Well said. Beautifully said. And so important to remember.
The only part that might not be so accurate, as I see, is this part:
"Minmatar may very well be the most diverse people of New Eden, even more so than the Federation."
Before I lived in the Federation and learned more about how it works, I thought Minmatar diversity might rival the Federations. It doesn't. Minmatar diversity approaches Federation diversity though, due in portion to how many Minmatar live in the Federation. I realize that both of you are right. How often does that happen!
The idiosyncrasies of Minmatar culture are wonderfully intricate. But there is a weight to it, that seems to lessen in the Federation.
I often wonder what our kin think of those of us who choose to live in the Federation?
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It is a fair criticism, given what I should really put at the end of every post I ever write: "Disclaimer, this poster could, in fact, be fallible and wrong, in spite of overwhelming indications to the contrary and the sudden and surprising classification of her posterior as an official divine entity on a minor world on the edge of Federation space."
... it's a legal matter after a concert broke open the crust of a volcano, insurance matters and 'acts of god' clauses. Don't ask. I so want to visit this world!
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3688
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 04:04:01 -
[57] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote: ... it's a legal matter after a concert broke open the crust of a volcano, insurance matters and 'acts of god' clauses. Don't ask.
I so want to visit this world!
You should see what she can do with a temperate planet and a structurally-unsound supercarrier. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2386
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 08:37:32 -
[58] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: a structurally-unsound supercarrier.
I am twitching something fierce right now.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1749
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 18:12:36 -
[59] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Oland Jan wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote: ... it's a legal matter after a concert broke open the crust of a volcano, insurance matters and 'acts of god' clauses. Don't ask.
I so want to visit this world! You should see what she can do with a temperate planet and a structurally-unsound supercarrier. I could be wrong, but knowing Mr. Jan as I do, I would suspect it wasn't the geologic abnormality that attracted his attention, but rather the mention of a divine posterior.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3701
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 19:06:07 -
[60] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:but rather the mention of a divine posterior.
What do you think she's gonna be shaking around as she rides the structurally-unsound supercarrier down the gravity well? |
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1791
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 19:36:13 -
[61] - Quote
Your empty head on a stick. It'll be very "metal" and stuff.
The IGS is not the place to reveal potential concerts like that. |
Oland Jan
Antumbra
27
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 19:51:25 -
[62] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote:but rather the mention of a divine posterior.
What do you think she's gonna be shaking around as she rides the structurally-unsound supercarrier down the gravity well? Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Your empty head on a stick. It'll be very "metal" and stuff.
The IGS is not the place to reveal potential concerts like that. Ouch! I suppose it's too apologize? I have enough troubles I don't need the gods after my...
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7614
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 21:05:46 -
[63] - Quote
Thanks for this, Miz. Once again, if I treat Clans as MegaCorps it seems that whilst I will undoubtedly be wrong, nobody will notice unless I tell them that's what I'm doing.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1791
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 22:20:52 -
[64] - Quote
Well, it's not like we don't occasionally make the mistake of thinking of Megacorps like Tribes. It's just familiar patterns that are more comforting to work with through the few similarities we see, rather than always acknowledging the important nuances and differences that sets them - sometimes uncomfortably - apart.
Just remember that our way is right and yours is objectively wrong, y'know? It's true, someone said it on the IGS. |
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