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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
81
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Posted - 2017.06.21 14:46:24 -
[331] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dior Ambraelle wrote: Well, we don't have T2 exploration cruisers, so why shouldn't we let the T3Cs to be? This is most likely the only role that doesn't overlap with any T2 cruisers.
Because they are not specialist cruisers. Dior Ambraelle wrote: Also, while the T2 explorer frigates are more fragile than the Astero, with level 4 cov-ops skill they actually have better probe bonuses. So there is no reason why we shouldn't make a T2 or in this case T3 cruiser that at some point becomes a better explorer than the Stratios.
They have better probe bonuses because they are specialised, T3C are not specialised, they are generalists. If you want a specialised exploration cruiser with powerful probe bonuses then ask for a new T2 exploration cruiser. It's not fun to argue with you if all you're doing is keep repeating the same thing over and over again, while ignoring all options and possibilities that would change these ships.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
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Posted - 2017.06.21 15:49:56 -
[332] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote: It's not fun to argue with you if all you're doing is keep repeating the same thing over and over again, while ignoring all options and possibilities that would change these ships.
I have to keep on repeating myself because you are ignoring fundamental parts of ship balance. Namely a generalist ship cannot be the best at any given task. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1266
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 15:55:12 -
[333] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dior Ambraelle wrote: It's not fun to argue with you if all you're doing is keep repeating the same thing over and over again, while ignoring all options and possibilities that would change these ships.
I have to keep on repeating myself because you are ignoring fundamental parts of ship balance. Namely a generalist ship cannot be the best at any given task.
quite.. besides the cloaky nullification combo
T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
83
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Posted - 2017.06.21 16:45:59 -
[334] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dior Ambraelle wrote: It's not fun to argue with you if all you're doing is keep repeating the same thing over and over again, while ignoring all options and possibilities that would change these ships.
I have to keep on repeating myself because you are ignoring fundamental parts of ship balance. Namely a generalist ship cannot be the best at any given task. T3Ds can switch between modes to have better damage, better defense or better speed than the other destroyers. Do they count as generalist too? And if not being specialized makes you weaker, then Loki should actually need to dual tank to have a defense that you can call decent at least. Because having bonus to both armor and shield doesn't look specialized to me.
Why not simply remove the whole "generalist" term from the rule book and simply say that the T3 ships are playing by their own rules? So T3Cs could become explorer ships with the ability to mimic the functions of other ships even if not so efficiently. Alternatively, Arazu, Falcon, Pilgrim and Rapier should lose their e-war abilities to become explorer cruisers instead.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
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Posted - 2017.06.21 17:04:00 -
[335] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote: T3Ds can switch between modes to have better damage, better defense or better speed than the other destroyers. Do they count as generalist too?
Supposed to, but they suffer from the exact same problems that have dogged the T3C. Namely that they were horrendously overpowered and still are compared to the other destroyers.
Dior Ambraelle wrote: And if not being specialized makes you weaker, then Loki should actually need to dual tank to have a defense that you can call decent at least. Because having bonus to both armor and shield doesn't look specialized to me.
If the loki is better than a recon at being a recon then it needs to be nerfed.
Dior Ambraelle wrote: Why not simply remove the whole "generalist" term from the rule book and simply say that the T3 ships are playing by their own rules? So T3Cs could become explorer ships with the ability to mimic the functions of other ships even if not so efficiently. Alternatively, Arazu, Falcon, Pilgrim and Rapier should lose their e-war abilities to become explorer cruisers instead.
Or we can fix the 4 ships that have been causing problems or outright invalidating some 60+ other ships for years.
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JC Mieyli
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
132
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Posted - 2017.06.21 17:22:12 -
[336] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Or we can fix the 4 ships that have been causing problems or outright invalidating some 60+ other ships for years.
maybe they used to years ago but not anymore meta changed a lot since those days |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 17:41:52 -
[337] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:baltec1 wrote: Or we can fix the 4 ships that have been causing problems or outright invalidating some 60+ other ships for years.
maybe they used to years ago but not anymore meta changed a lot since those days
Yea, its dominated by a handful of overpowered ships, this change goes a long way to fixing that. |
BESTER bm
Omni Galactic Central Omni Galactic Group
23
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Posted - 2017.06.21 17:42:31 -
[338] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sterling Blades wrote: but if it does become that a FRIGATE is the better option for endgame explo sites rather than a larger supposedly beefier vessel, then there is a problem. Again, a dedicated exploration ship should be better then a generalist cruiser at its specialised task. That frigate is better at explo sites than a titan.
You are twsting the argument to suit your needs here. You are trying to blanket the argument with basic and frankly non applicable comments. There currently is no high end exploration ship capabale of running the high end exploration sites with acceptable risk. The only ship able to do this is a T3C right now and post nerf that option seems to be gone. Many people have spends serious time and effort getting skilled in to these ships and the required fits which also carry a 1B pricetag. CCP is about to wipe out all that work and investment and apparently will not care one bit about this. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 17:49:01 -
[339] - Quote
BESTER bm wrote:
You are twsting the argument to suit your needs here. You are trying to blanket the argument with basic and frankly non applicable comments. There currently is no high end exploration ship capabale of running the high end exploration sites with acceptable risk. The only ship able to do this is a T3C right now and post nerf that option seems to be gone. Many people have spends serious time and effort getting skilled in to these ships and the required fits which also carry a 1B pricetag. CCP is about to wipe out all that work and investment and apparently will not care one bit about this.
They nerfed ships worth 120 billion out of anomaly ratting (tacking titan nerfs).
Your easy ride is over, this content is going back to being difficult and hopefully that also means the supply of the high end gear out of these sites become more rare. You are going to have to adapt, just like everyone else that has had their golden goose nerfed. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
824
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 19:08:33 -
[340] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:BESTER bm wrote:
You are twsting the argument to suit your needs here. You are trying to blanket the argument with basic and frankly non applicable comments. There currently is no high end exploration ship capabale of running the high end exploration sites with acceptable risk. The only ship able to do this is a T3C right now and post nerf that option seems to be gone. Many people have spends serious time and effort getting skilled in to these ships and the required fits which also carry a 1B pricetag. CCP is about to wipe out all that work and investment and apparently will not care one bit about this.
They nerfed ships worth 120 billion out of anomaly ratting (tacking titan nerfs). Your easy ride is over, this content is going back to being difficult and hopefully that also means the supply of the high end gear out of these sites become more rare. You are going to have to adapt, just like everyone else that has had their golden goose nerfed. For the love of pod please stop teaching pvers how to do pve content. Nobody here teaching you how to fit your Mega. You don't even know what drops are from those sites. Sleeper sites are made to be high end content, I guess superior sites scaled to be done in BS hull. Guess what, nobody will do exploration in BS hull because they are non mobile after warp changes, and mobility is the number one for any explorer. Powerfull combo cloak+nulli should be nerfed but not by the cost of explorers.
"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
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Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
128
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Posted - 2017.06.21 20:24:21 -
[341] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dior Ambraelle wrote: It's not fun to argue with you if all you're doing is keep repeating the same thing over and over again, while ignoring all options and possibilities that would change these ships.
I have to keep on repeating myself because you are ignoring fundamental parts of ship balance. Namely a generalist ship cannot be the best at any given task.
If you have to keep repeating yourself then one side or the other is wrong, since you're having everyone else in the thread come against you perhaps you should take a different look at your line of discussion. (That's as far down as I can tone this, would rather use much stronger language/points but don't want a forum ban.)
I also challenge you to find a fully bonused T1 or T2 exploration cruiser (or larger!), faction and T3 will not count for you. The fact that there isn't one has been a glaring hole in the ship lineup for at least a decade. Therefore generalist does not apply to exploration.
I would be fine with requiring HAC/Recon/Logi/Command ships as prereqs for training the strategic cruiser skills, makes no difference really. No matter the training bar people will do it anyway.
The point though:
Unchain exploration from cloak or buff the tank on the cloak subs to be on par for doing exploration regardless of cloak consideration.
This is not a generalist ship class, it's a swiss army knife. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 20:34:36 -
[342] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:
If you have to keep repeating yourself then one side or the other is wrong, since you're having everyone else in the thread come against you perhaps you should take a different look at your line of discussion. (That's as far down as I can tone this, would rather use much stronger language/points but don't want a forum ban.)
Its more like a bunch of people don't want their overpowered toy nerfed.
Mhari Dson wrote: I also challenge you to find a fully bonused T1 or T2 exploration cruiser (or larger!), faction and T3 will not count for you. The fact that there isn't one has been a glaring hole in the ship lineup for at least a decade. Therefore generalist does not apply to exploration.
They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one.
Mhari Dson wrote: I would be fine with requiring HAC/Recon/Logi/Command ships as prereqs for training the strategic cruiser skills, makes no difference really. No matter the training bar people will do it anyway.
The point though:
Unchain exploration from cloak or buff the tank on the cloak subs to be on par for doing exploration regardless of cloak consideration.
This is not a generalist ship class, it's a swiss army knife.
Swiss army knife is a generalist, it does everything but not as well as something dedicated. You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete. |
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
133
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 20:55:30 -
[343] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:JC Mieyli wrote:baltec1 wrote: Or we can fix the 4 ships that have been causing problems or outright invalidating some 60+ other ships for years.
maybe they used to years ago but not anymore meta changed a lot since those days Yea, its dominated by a handful of overpowered ships, this change goes a long way to fixing that. by removing even more ships from the meta and making the handful of ships worth flying even smaller id prefer to see things go the other way with more ships being viable rather than less that isnt power creep its equalization |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
824
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 21:01:25 -
[344] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one. we already have dedicated faction cruiser that won't do superior sleeper site. You don't get one thing. It's reverse case carriers+anomalys. Carriers were buffed so players started to farm anomalies with them. CCP didn't predict that. Now they nerfed hulls via pve (sic!). Now it will be reverse. T3C will be nerfed and there is no hull that can replace them in content they are currently usable. If you think they will suddenly magically conjure T2 exploration hulls then you are wrong. Explorers asking for changing data sites content for years. ZERO response from CCP. Stale, unecessary sites, you may delete it, nobody will notice.
"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
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Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
128
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Posted - 2017.06.21 21:01:58 -
[345] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mhari Dson wrote:
If you have to keep repeating yourself then one side or the other is wrong, since you're having everyone else in the thread come against you perhaps you should take a different look at your line of discussion. (That's as far down as I can tone this, would rather use much stronger language/points but don't want a forum ban.)
Its more like a bunch of people don't want their overpowered toy nerfed. Mhari Dson wrote: I also challenge you to find a fully bonused T1 or T2 exploration cruiser (or larger!), faction and T3 will not count for you. The fact that there isn't one has been a glaring hole in the ship lineup for at least a decade. Therefore generalist does not apply to exploration.
They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one. Mhari Dson wrote: I would be fine with requiring HAC/Recon/Logi/Command ships as prereqs for training the strategic cruiser skills, makes no difference really. No matter the training bar people will do it anyway.
The point though:
Unchain exploration from cloak or buff the tank on the cloak subs to be on par for doing exploration regardless of cloak consideration.
This is not a generalist ship class, it's a swiss army knife.
Swiss army knife is a generalist, it does everything but not as well as something dedicated. You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete.
We asked for T1/2 exploration ships six years ago but the devs devoted their time to whining nullbears, us explorers can't even get a typo corrected in less than FIVE YEARS. |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
84
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 21:56:49 -
[346] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete. This is an interesting point. Recons are e-war ships (for some reason) so making the cloak subsystem more tanky won't necessarily affect recons if the e-war subsystem is weaker. Unless you only use your recon ship to "recon" this is unlikely to happen. To be honest I never understood why do we have two almost redundant ships in a group called recon ships, while they barely have any bonuses that makes them worth of the name.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 22:05:58 -
[347] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:baltec1 wrote:They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one. we already have dedicated faction cruiser that won't do superior sleeper site. You don't get one thing. It's reverse case carriers+anomalys. Carriers were buffed so players started to farm anomalies with them. CCP didn't predict that. Now they nerfed hulls via pve (sic!). Now it will be reverse. T3C will be nerfed and there is no hull that can replace them in content they are currently usable. If you think they will suddenly magically conjure T2 exploration hulls then you are wrong. Explorers asking for changing data sites content for years. ZERO response from CCP. Stale, unecessary sites, you may delete it, nobody will notice.
Actually I imagine we will go back to people not running these things in a solo cruiser. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
|
Posted - 2017.06.21 22:06:57 -
[348] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:baltec1 wrote:JC Mieyli wrote:baltec1 wrote: Or we can fix the 4 ships that have been causing problems or outright invalidating some 60+ other ships for years.
maybe they used to years ago but not anymore meta changed a lot since those days Yea, its dominated by a handful of overpowered ships, this change goes a long way to fixing that. by removing even more ships from the meta and making the handful of ships worth flying even smaller id prefer to see things go the other way with more ships being viable rather than less that isnt power creep its equalization
Buffing some 60+ ships to deal with 4 overpowered ships is very much power creep on a massive scale. |
BESTER bm
Omni Galactic Central Omni Galactic Group
23
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Posted - 2017.06.21 22:15:16 -
[349] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Your easy ride is over, this content is going back to being difficult and hopefully that also means the supply of the high end gear out of these sites become more rare. You are going to have to adapt, just like everyone else that has had their golden goose nerfed.
Dude, you do not even know what you are talking about and quite clearly have never seen nor run any of these sites. At this point you are merely a cracked record spouting the same nonsense as you really have no argument here. CCP is about to kill off high en exploration as the only ship they have that will be able to run these sites will be nerfed to he point where it can't.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree or not, whether it was intended or not, the T3C and especially the Tengu has become the Specialist Explo Cruiser. In part due to the salt and tears from gankers and campers unable to counter the ship (and not because it can't be done, just because they are not smart enough) and seeing the potential of picking up freebees off of other peoples work slip thorough their fingers time and time again.
Fortunately there's alternatives on the horizon in the form of different MMO options. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
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Posted - 2017.06.21 22:16:00 -
[350] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote:baltec1 wrote:You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete. This is an interesting point. Recons are e-war ships (for some reason) so making the cloak subsystem more tanky won't necessarily affect recons if the e-war subsystem is weaker. Unless you only use your recon ship to "recon" this is unlikely to happen. To be honest I never understood why do we have two almost redundant ships in a group called recon ships, while they barely have any bonuses that makes them worth of the name.
If the T3C can fit a bigger tank while sporting cov ops and nullification then the recon lineup is rendered obsolete. |
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BESTER bm
Omni Galactic Central Omni Galactic Group
23
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Posted - 2017.06.21 22:20:21 -
[351] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:I guess superior sites scaled to be done in BS hull. Guess what, nobody will do exploration in BS hull because they are non mobile after warp changes, and mobility is the number one for any explorer.
Besides a BS hull not offering any extra support/protection in a Superior Sleeper, they indeed are simply to slow and lack the agility needed to run these sites. There is also no exploration bonus for BS. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18995
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Posted - 2017.06.21 22:22:24 -
[352] - Quote
BESTER bm wrote:
Dude, you do not even know what you are talking about and quite clearly have never seen nor run any of these sites. At this point you are merely a cracked record spouting the same nonsense as you really have no argument here. CCP is about to kill off high en exploration as the only ship they have that will be able to run these sites will be nerfed to he point where it can't.
You mean the only ship than can run these sites virtually risk and effort free. Plenty of other ships can run them, it just requires more effort and means you cant nullify you way past anyone in the way as easily.
BESTER bm wrote: Whether you like it or not, whether you agree or not, whether it was intended or not, the T3C and especially the Tengu has become the Specialist Explo Cruiser. In part due to the salt and tears from gankers and campers unable to counter the ship (and not because it can't be done, just because they are not smart enough) and seeing the potential of picking up freebees off of other peoples work slip thorough their fingers time and time again.
Fortunately there's alternatives on the horizon in the form of different MMO options.
We did high end exploration before overpowered uncatchable nullified cov ops cruisers, people will continue to do them after the T3C gets nerfed into place. |
BESTER bm
Omni Galactic Central Omni Galactic Group
23
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Posted - 2017.06.21 22:30:41 -
[353] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Actually I imagine we will go back to people not running these things in a solo cruiser.
That is what will likely happen yes. While I can fit and use a Tengu to run these sites with acceptable risk, where the risk mostly consists of me being careless or greedy, Fitting any available exploration ship to have a chance will become a huge risk even in case of getting unlucky on a hack and triggering a defense. Let alone I will no longer have the option to use the site defense to actually protect myself.
Stratios is not even close to being able to run these sites and will need to leave at the first sign of an unlucky turn or mishap. |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
84
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Posted - 2017.06.21 22:45:00 -
[354] - Quote
BESTER bm wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:I guess superior sites scaled to be done in BS hull. Guess what, nobody will do exploration in BS hull because they are non mobile after warp changes, and mobility is the number one for any explorer. Besides a BS hull not offering any extra support/protection in a Superior Sleeper, they indeed are simply to slow and lack the agility needed to run these sites. There is also no exploration bonus for BS. Well, we have the Nestor, but I wouldn't really use it for exploration, even if it's somewhat more agile than the average battleships. The lack of cloak bonus is really painful on that ship. Even if we don't get cov-ops cloak, can't we get a "no speed and probe strength reduction" bonus at least, instead of the barely useful remote rep?
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
128
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Posted - 2017.06.21 23:03:02 -
[355] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote:BESTER bm wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:I guess superior sites scaled to be done in BS hull. Guess what, nobody will do exploration in BS hull because they are non mobile after warp changes, and mobility is the number one for any explorer. Besides a BS hull not offering any extra support/protection in a Superior Sleeper, they indeed are simply to slow and lack the agility needed to run these sites. There is also no exploration bonus for BS. Well, we have the Nestor, but I wouldn't really use it for exploration, even if it's somewhat more agile than the average battleships. The lack of cloak bonus is really painful on that ship. Even if we don't get cov-ops cloak, can't we get a "no speed and scan resolution reduction" bonus at least, instead of the barely useful remote rep?
I tried to find a use for the Nestor, really I did, it's just a hangar decoration I need to get rid of. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
128
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Posted - 2017.06.21 23:58:59 -
[356] - Quote
When it comes down to it this is what I expect of a good exploration ship:
1-2 utility highs (probes, salvager optional) 3 utility mids (relic/data/cargo scanner) 400-450 applied dps (HAM/HML apply so poorly the sheet dps for this is over 700) 500dps worth of tank spread across 3 resists Can take two 70K damage pulses in a short time and expect to survive 550m/s under AB, 1200m/s under mwd
last one is a complaint....
Be able to put a legion through the same acceleration gate I can stuff a *&%%ing vulture.
and that's just hisec. |
BESTER bm
Omni Galactic Central Omni Galactic Group
23
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Posted - 2017.06.22 01:11:15 -
[357] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:When it comes down to it this is what I expect of a good exploration ship: 1-2 utility highs (probes, salvager optional) 3 utility mids (relic/data/cargo scanner) 400-450 applied dps (HAM/HML apply so poorly the sheet dps for this is over 700) 500dps worth of tank spread across 3 resists Can take two 70K damage pulses in a short time and expect to survive 550m/s under AB, 1200m/s under mwd
Off Topic yes, but; Cargo scanners are a crutch.. knowing you just got unlucky on a 60M can as it blows is not worth it.. Separate Data/Relic is so last decade, we use Zeugma now.. :P .. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
128
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Posted - 2017.06.22 01:26:34 -
[358] - Quote
BESTER bm wrote:Mhari Dson wrote:When it comes down to it this is what I expect of a good exploration ship: 1-2 utility highs (probes, salvager optional) 3 utility mids (relic/data/cargo scanner) 400-450 applied dps (HAM/HML apply so poorly the sheet dps for this is over 700) 500dps worth of tank spread across 3 resists Can take two 70K damage pulses in a short time and expect to survive 550m/s under AB, 1200m/s under mwd
Off Topic yes, but; Cargo scanners are a crutch.. knowing you just got unlucky on a 60M can as it blows is not worth it.. Separate Data/Relic is so last decade, we use Zeugma now.. :P ..
sleeper sites need the virus strength and coherence, Zeugma isn't worth the price. |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
84
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Posted - 2017.06.22 01:27:04 -
[359] - Quote
BESTER bm wrote:Separate Data/Relic is so last decade, we use Zeugma now.. :P .. Combo scanners only had one utility slot the last time I checked, yellow and red hacks often need more.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
128
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Posted - 2017.06.22 03:27:08 -
[360] - Quote
FYI SISI is up with the stats loaded in, the launcher can't seem to tell if it's there. Attempting login does work.
And Thanks CCP Fozzie for getting that up for us, hope it didn't cut into your weekend too much. |
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