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iudex
State Protectorate Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.12.30 21:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why does everyone has to "equal" in MMOs ? To run around in the same top gear at the same maximum level, with the same top stats etc. ? Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ?
And for EVE: why are there only 5 levels to each skill, so that everyone runs around with the same "capped" skill-sets after a while ? Why not give more specialisations skills for certain weapons, so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ? Oh yes, they scream : BALANCE. I can't hear that anymore. Everything and everyone must be in BALANCE and equal, superiority is SIN and NOT ALLOWED !!!
BALANCE is not realistic: In RL there is no balance as well, and how can there be balance in a space universe, with such a diversity of races and technologies. Balance actually kills the immersion - it makes everyone equal like in an unrealistic, artificial communist society. It kills all the fun which comes from the strive for constant improvement and finding a way to beat the other guy. There is no taste of progression after a while, when one gets "capped" with skills for a certain ship. In other games that usually i the moment where people quit (top level, top gear = nothing to do anymore = move on to another game). What's so bad about giving a vet, who keeps training his missile skills for 5-10 years, 20 % more damage than to someone who invested only 5 months training time in missiles ? Will this really ruin the game and make everyone quit ? If someone gets spanked by a stronger guy in RL, he doesn't commit suicide as well, just because it's so unfair that there are stronger people than him on earth. |
ElQuirko
The Demonfuge Malevolent Fan Club
225
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Posted - 2011.12.30 21:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
There's this cool game you should play. It's called EVE Online. |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1174
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Posted - 2011.12.30 21:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:There's this cool game you should play. It's called EVE Online. This.
Quote:Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ? That's more WoW-like. Including all the other crap that calls itself MMO, although they are only a sad excuse. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
1825
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Posting to even out the ratio of pilots wearing glasses or some sort.
/c
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Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx Rookie Empire
47
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
in EVE its not the limit of skills, its the combination of skills that make a character strong. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
10
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
iudex wrote:so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ?
I like this idea. In fact I would start an account just to train it on Battlecruisers for 10 years...
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iudex
State Protectorate Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Metal Icarus wrote:in EVE its not the limit of skills, its the combination of skills that make a character strong. Ofc. Eve is better in this regard than other MMOs (that's why we play it and don't play that wow-clones for longer than few months). But here you get the cap as well, after you trained all the skills that are affecting the ship you fly. If you prefer to fly sub-capital ships, this can happen quite fast, and then you are "maxed" and are forced to be equal. There should be soft caps, not hard caps, skill communism is a bad feature imho. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
doesnt implants, skills, remaps etc account for exactly that?
Older lazy players with poor planning in terms of attributes and smart training will be overtaken by younger players that are effitiant and wealthy.
Time is a seperator to prevent one month uber ratting/leveling to max and frankly just about everyone in eve is happy with this, eve reflects better the dedicated from the greedy. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4097
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
iudex wrote:Why not give more specialisations skills for certain weapons, so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ? You mean kind of like how it works in EVE? WellGǪ good news: this is EVE, and it already works like that.
It's a horribly bad idea to go for that kind of focus, though, because it makes you awful.
Oh, and no, it's not a bad feature GÇö it's what makes the EVE skill system different (and vastly superior) to pretty much every other MMO skill/ability system out there, because it means what you actually know matters more than what your character knows. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
894
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm sorry your Drake/Tengu is "forced" to be just like everyone else's. Get over it.
Or better, pay the money to pimp it out and give yourself the edge. |
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iudex
State Protectorate Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tippia wrote:iudex wrote:Why not give more specialisations skills for certain weapons, so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ? You mean kind of like how it works in EVE? WellGǪ good news: this is EVE, and it already works like that.
This might be how Eve seems to you, young padawan, but in the Eve which i play, the skills that contribute something to the ship are limited and can be capped (depending on shiptype) in a rather short time. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4098
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
iudex wrote:This might be how Eve seems to you, young padawan, but in the Eve which i play, the skills that contribute something to the ship are limited and can be capped (depending on shiptype) in a rather short time. GǪand yet, it works just the way you describe it, because, force-insensitive mayfly, skills are a very very very tiny part of what matters (and they work like that too). So if EVE the way you play it doesn't seem like that, it's because you haven't popped out of your cocoon yet.
Once you do, you'll find that EVE is indeed not like those other MMOs. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
178
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Posting in an incoherent rant thread |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
134
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
You can have the best skills to fly a t1 frig (which by the way, maxing all the skills used by any given t1 frig takes a rather long time compared to maxing a character in everything in a grind MMO), and still lose to someone a few weeks old if they know what they are doing and you don't. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
95
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just rising the quota of feminine avatars seen in nonsensical threads. |
iudex
State Protectorate Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:iudex wrote:This might be how Eve seems to you, young padawan, but in the Eve which i play, the skills that contribute something to the ship are limited and can be capped (depending on shiptype) in a rather short time. GǪand yet, it works just the way you describe it, because, force-insensitive mayfly, skills are a very very very tiny part of what matters (and they work like that too). So if EVE the way you play it doesn't seem like that, it's because you haven't popped out of your cocoon yet. Once you do, you'll find that EVE is indeed not like those other MMOs.
Don't try to elude, this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast (which seems to be new to you). The other "skills" (= personal abilities of a player) are not subject of this thread. Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3, so even if this were part of this thread, you'd be wrong. Even in Wow pvp can require more "skill" than that. But again, that's not what i'm talking about, the equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied - and i'm posting against this type of communism-like forced and artificial equality, that kills any taste of progression after a while. |
Xolve
Intaki Armaments Important Internet Spaceship League
499
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Posting to even out the ratio of pilots wearing glasses or some sort.
/c
I want to be on you. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2011.12.30 22:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
iudex wrote:Why does everyone has to "equal" in MMOs ? To run around in the same top gear at the same maximum level, with the same top stats etc. ? Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ?
And for EVE: why are there only 5 levels to each skill, so that everyone runs around with the same "capped" skill-sets after a while ? Why not give more specialisations skills for certain weapons, so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ? Oh yes, they scream : BALANCE. I can't hear that anymore. Everything and everyone must be in BALANCE and equal, superiority is SIN and NOT ALLOWED !!!
BALANCE is not realistic: In RL there is no balance as well, and how can there be balance in a space universe, with such a diversity of races and technologies. Balance actually kills the immersion - it makes everyone equal like in an unrealistic, artificial communist society. It kills all the fun which comes from the strive for constant improvement and finding a way to beat the other guy. There is no taste of progression after a while, when one gets "capped" with skills for a certain ship. In other games that usually i the moment where people quit (top level, top gear = nothing to do anymore = move on to another game). What's so bad about giving a vet, who keeps training his missile skills for 5-10 years, 20 % more damage than to someone who invested only 5 months training time in missiles ? Will this really ruin the game and make everyone quit ? If someone gets spanked by a stronger guy in RL, he doesn't commit suicide as well, just because it's so unfair that there are stronger people than him on earth.
If you have no life that's your own problem.
If you want to be more stronger then others use your brain if you have one or get more skills when you fight others. Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4099
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
iudex wrote: Don't try to elude, Elude what?
Quote:this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast GǪaccording to a system that already works just like you want it to work and which is only a part of a larger whole that creates the differences you're looking for.
Quote:Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3 Ooook. No. So yeah, you really need to get out of your cocoon if that's how you think the game works.
The EVE skill system makes it about as unequal you can get without adding the idiotic artificial unequality you see in level/class-based games.
Quote:he equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied Of course it can. In fact, the skill systems itself denies it. This system actually allows for superiority, unlike pretty much every other system in existence.
Rather, the key word here is the one you slipped in there: GÇ£progressionGÇ¥. You are still confusing EVE with those other MMOs if you think it has anything to do with skillsGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Camios
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Some comparisons between EVE and real life don't hold really well.
Also, most important: increasing the glasses of pilots wearing glasses. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
249
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
iudex wrote:Tippia wrote:iudex wrote:This might be how Eve seems to you, young padawan, but in the Eve which i play, the skills that contribute something to the ship are limited and can be capped (depending on shiptype) in a rather short time. GǪand yet, it works just the way you describe it, because, force-insensitive mayfly, skills are a very very very tiny part of what matters (and they work like that too). So if EVE the way you play it doesn't seem like that, it's because you haven't popped out of your cocoon yet. Once you do, you'll find that EVE is indeed not like those other MMOs. Don't try to elude, this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast (which seems to be new to you). The other "skills" (= personal abilities of a player) are not subject of this thread. Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3, so even if this were part of this thread, you'd be wrong. Even in Wow pvp can require more "skill" than that. But again, that's not what i'm talking about, the equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied - and i'm posting against this type of communism-like forced and artificial equality, that kills any taste of progression after a while.
Oh hell...
iudex... meet Tippa... "bitter-vet," resident forum *****, "logic-fu" master, and the LAST person you wan to start an argument with. Back away slowly and you might come out with most of your ego intact. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M
35
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
When you are the only person in the room claiming it's too easy perhaps you are missing something.
Adding people whose heads are on fire to the glasses/no glasses mix |
iudex
State Protectorate Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:he equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied Of course it can. In fact, the skill systems itself denies it. This system actually allows for superiority, unlike pretty much every other system in existence. GǪ The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? Do you have more than 5 level per skills or more skills that contribute to the ship performance than others ? I'm sorry for having discussed with you, didn't notice that you wanted to troll or bring up topics that are not subject of this thread (= other abilities than skill-points) and then make nonsensical posts about this other stuff. Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. This is obvious to anyone who has an IQ higher than 80 and doesn't completely fail at understanding what is meant by a certain text (even if that text is written in poor 2nd language English, i confess). |
Vallek Arkonnis
Cosmic Cimmerians The G0dfathers
75
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
iudex wrote:Balance actually kills the immersion - it makes everyone equal like in an unrealistic, artificial communist society. It kills all the fun which comes from the strive for constant improvement and finding a way to beat the other guy.
You're a dramiel pilot, huh? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4102
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 23:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
iudex wrote:The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? No. It denies the equality that the cap purportedly creates. Reading isn't hard GÇö try it.
Quote:Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. Ok. Then balance and equality is no longer a factor, and your thread becomes rather pointless since it disqualifies its own OP. The supposed GÇ£sin of superiorityGÇ¥ falls wa-a-ay outside of the topic as you now (re)define it.
Progression in EVE is not tied to the ability of a ship, nor is it specifically tied to skills. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
iudex wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:he equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied Of course it can. In fact, the skill systems itself denies it. This system actually allows for superiority, unlike pretty much every other system in existence. GǪ The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? Do you have more than 5 level per skills or more skills that contribute to the ship performance than others ? I'm sorry for having discussed with you, didn't notice that you wanted to troll or bring up topics that are not subject of this thread (= other abilities than skill-points) and then make nonsensical posts about this other stuff. Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. This is obvious to anyone who has an IQ higher than 80 and doesn't completely fail at understanding what is meant by a certain text (even if that text is written in poor 2nd language English, i confess).
Confirming that you can-¦t be bothered to learn to fly and need other methods to become one of the "big guys".
edit: no sunglasses FTW "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2011.12.30 23:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
there is always the option to fit your favourite ship with best available deadspace/faction mods and pvp in it, thus being at least stat-wise better than 99,99% of other pvpers. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
291
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Posted - 2011.12.31 00:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: (stuff) Back away slowly and you might come out with most of your ego intact.
I kinda doubt tthe OP will listen to this part.
Popcorn for the show? |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
548
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Posted - 2011.12.31 00:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Female avatar, no glasses - if it helps |
Surge Roth
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2011.12.31 00:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Camios wrote: Also, most important: increasing the glasses of pilots wearing glasses.
No. |
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