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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2007.05.23 22:51:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Dabljuh Look, the problem isn't with running per se. It is that people can attack freely and always escape. Its almost zero risk, which is why all the pirates and pvpers are doing it.
If you can fit a ship for long range webbing, these tactics will have a risk - a risk that there may be an enemy that may be too powerful, and cannot be run from.
The only problem that has is that it may become harder, if not impossible, to escape a pirating gang.
I said it above but I'll say it again. Damp + web means they must come in web range and that means you can hold them.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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Dabljuh
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Posted - 2007.05.26 06:28:00 -
[32]
if you fit damps, the attacker will simply run. No risk for the attacker involved, ever. He either can kill the target or he can run from it. There's no flytrap setup that proves deadly for a speedtank - and this oughta be changed.
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Auron Shadowbane
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Posted - 2007.05.26 09:31:00 -
[33]
give webs the stats of a tagetpainter and we are fine.
give the minmatar recons a 25%/lvl increase in web strenght and we are at current things for them.
but common ships get a ~50km webber with 30% webbage.
as overpowered as all EW but it finally takes more than one web to kill an inty and at same time makes it easier to web them.
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:24:00 -
[34]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 26/05/2007 14:24:33 after the nerf only ships supposed to move exstremely fast can do it, and NO webbers are more then overpowered O.o although i like the idea if they put in small/med/heavy/Xlarge webbers that full VERY little effect if they hit a target the wrong sieze (and they should all take a PROCENT (%) of the cpu and grid instead of a number, since it should be the ew for all ship to use, then a amplifier for it could be really nice :) )
Ps. and all web strenght should be nerfed to HALF of what it is... if a inty comes within range of a webber even the worse webber will be the "you die" bottom, there insainly strong 75% as the worst and 90% as t2 O.o insain... fix that first ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Dabljuh
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:11:00 -
[35]
The problem with webs is that they're too powerful at close range and completely useless at long range. My suggestion is supposed to fix both.
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Andreya
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Posted - 2007.05.28 10:32:00 -
[36]
I fly speed tanked ships, the only ones i think are 'overpowered' is the Curse and the crow. the crow aint so bad, as he cant really kill you, but its sorta silly how its teh only ship who can do full damage at full speed (while taking no damage). so whatever
But, the Nano Curse. bleh, I can fly these, and even i agree they need a nerfin, they can solo pretty much any ship out there with the right setup (if not any, itd be 90%of the ships out there)
things like a vaga, well.. they fixed it so i cant orbit at stupid speed and still hit you. which means... you can hit me back. so, leave the minnie ships and their projectiles outta this :)
lastly.. if your in a BS, ratting solo, i hope you die. if this game was built as it was meant to, a BS should always have support with him. this game would become a lot mroe team orientated if they made webbers cruiser and frigate mods only.
Basically saying. your BS is useless without your friend in his frigate helping web scram for you. and he cant kill anythign without your damage. sounds like a fair trade. and one that would actually make this game more interesting than seeing solo BS's and BC's everywhere
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Formosus Funus
Eternal Rising EternalRising
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Posted - 2007.05.29 15:48:00 -
[37]
IMO there are no speed tanking ships who need a nerf atm. Especially not if you consider that Vagabonds and Curses really dont like missiles. Could be me, but I had like 5 Raven engagements in my Vaga and 4 times I had to run, that single time I didnt was due he was ratting in TS space and used EM missiles.
However, Vaga is build on speed. As Vaga pilot you need to be very carefully as you cant simply MWD 24/7 (less dps and your cap dies, with faction stuff this 'could' be prevented). As a target with MWD there are enough ways to catch a Vaga as the pilot only has to make one mistake by not watching his overview. Besides that, a vagabond simply doesnt have a tank apart from some hitpoints. Once in web range a Vaga is simply dead. If a vaga pilot engages a target who has a/multiple friends in local who are gonna help him, you need to be even more carefull as you cant simply orbit your target anymore.
And if that's called ballanced (!?), what about a Rapier with Recon 5, a perfect skilled Claymore pilot and 4 of those amps? That would result in 195.78Km web range with 70% strength (you forgot stacking?). Rapier would mostly use 2 webbers, thus two of them become 1 big fat 195Km at 87.5% strength web... Right...
Speedcurse, maybe it's not meant to use a speedtank, however it has a very poor tank. I cant see why this should be a problem as you can simply remove the dps from the Curse. A Curse orbiting you with NOS and a scram... who cares? If he does have friends it's a little but different though. Besides that, if you're in a ship with MWD it's very easy to catch a Curse as he needs cap to use his MWD... with some smart timing and playing he will be right under your wheels.
Inty's are meant to be fast, they do hardly any dps.
That web amp thingy? No thank you. A Curse could be orbiting just below 30Km with a Domi scram and thus escape from that. Or someone would have at least 3 amps which I dont see happening at all. Huginn/Rapier doesnt need the amps, Caldari doesnt have the meds to fit a web and scram, and if he does he needs its low slots for PDS/DCU a lot to make up for that. Armor tanking ships would MAYBE fit 1. And where as the Curse would be on the safe side, a Vaga is purely nerfed to death cause it arbits around 16Km quite a lot.
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Father Weebles
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.29 19:38:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Father Weebles on 29/05/2007 19:37:36 The only ships are my nano huginn can take out are turret bc(tier 1) and cruisers/frigs. It's extremely hard to take down a good tier 2 bc, nigh impossible. Add to the fact that nano huginns can only fit close range AC's.
Only the nano/damp curse needs to be looked at which I think is a little too powerful with damps, but other than that nothing needs to be nerfed.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=524621
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Emily Emmerson
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Posted - 2007.12.03 23:44:00 -
[39]
No ship should be godmode. speed tanks still need to be looked at.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Eve University
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Posted - 2007.12.04 00:18:00 -
[40]
As noted in every single WAAAAAAH I CAN'T KILL IT MAKE IT STOP thread made in the past what, 7 months since the last post on this necrothread?
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Vengarioth Skullshanks
Minmatar Victims of Confusion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 00:20:00 -
[41]
Why do u nooblets always cry for the Iwin button ? Use the tools you are given ingame .. use your brain, just think about it before crying for nerfs on ze forums. It could be so easy ...
Different tactics bring flavour to the game... thats why eve is a great game. E.g. You make webbing foolproof all ships that rely on speed will be worthless. Great Fun !
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VaderDSL
Caldari Personal Vendetta
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Posted - 2007.12.04 00:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jai Cee No this really isn't needed. There are plenty of counters to speed fitted ships, post nerf those being ceptors, vagabonds, and curses.
1) Is the obvious hugin or rapier 2) Speed tackling ceptor of your own (very easy to setup a crow/stilleto etc to do this and get >7k out of it without implants) 3) Heavy NOS, best named or T2 has a 24km range which is handily just the same range T2 scramblers have. If they've got faction scramblers bring your equivalently expensive faction NOS or try another much cheaper method 4) Sensor dampners, if it has to come in web range its dead. The best named sensor dampner with good skills on a non specialised ship will reduce most intis lock range to within NOS/web range. Two should get close to doing the same to a vaga. Bring a celestis and you don't even need good skills to accomplish the same thing.
Only the first two of these (and its far from exhaustive) give you a good chance of killing a speed fitted ship but all of them are perfect counters to speed ships. The job of a tackler is hard enough as it is, if you introduce a web amplifier you're all but going to kill interceptors that aren't extremely long range fitted. It entirely nerfs Gallente who require close range and it makes gate camps even more overpowered since it will make returning to the gate that much harder. In essence it solves nothing and just makes boring long range fighting MORE common.
I've killed plenty of speed fitted ships without using faction modules or implants. Here's a hint though, speed ships have almost no tank and very limited DPS. Bring a couple of intis/dictors and a fastish cruiser and anyone can kill one.
P.S. Have you even considered how overpowered this would make the hugin/rapier? With a skirmish mod in your gang you'd be webbing at over 100km, maybe as far as 150km with a mindlink!
Domi web = 15000m * 300% (recon V) * 30% (overloaded) * 37.8 (claymore skim link cs 4) = 107.4km range i think.
Not overloaded = 77km roughly again iirc
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Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.12.04 07:52:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Eka Maladay on 04/12/2007 07:52:40
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix 1) When an army runs away from you if you wish to maintain range you either need to slow them down or go faster yourself, there are no other options. Thus the answer to speed is more speed. (since those web modules would be overpowered as hell)
Very incorrect. These modules would make these ship overpower against speed fits. I for one am not scare of a ship that is missing a mid slot for extra 6 km of web range if I'm not in a speed fit.
Quote: 2) Webs and the associated amp modules you propose take, by your own admission, way more slots than a damp would. Like you said if it's specifically fit to take it down it will, and the damp will do this.
No, you missed the OP's point. The point is to put speed fit ship into risk, not be satisfied on simply driving them away.
Quote: 4) The point of interceptors is to be hard to get. That's why they're so darned fast. (As well as to keep you from running)
interceptor can still fly around this ship in circle long as it doesn't go within the web range. it does it job fine, It just can't do it's job without risk anymore.
Originally by: Vengarioth Skullshanks Why do u nooblets always cry for the Iwin button ? Use the tools you are given ingame .. use your brain, just think about it before crying for nerfs on ze forums. It could be so easy ...
Different tactics bring flavour to the game... thats why eve is a great game. E.g. You make webbing foolproof all ships that rely on speed will be worthless. Great Fun !
By your logic, all speed fit are already worthless because there are always the huginns and Rapier. The point is that speed fit shouldn't be able to smells danger from a mile away and runs. It should have to engages and commit to the fight just like any other ship. Beside, a speed fit, properly operated, can avoid this ship easily, an 84% web is nothing for a vagabond. it will still move faster then most ship under an 84% penalty.
Originally by: Formosus Funus IMO there are no speed tanking ships who need a nerf atm. Especially not if you consider that Vagabonds and Curses really dont like missiles. Could be me, but I had like 5 Raven engagements in my Vaga and 4 times I had to run, that single time I didnt was due he was ratting in TS space and used EM missiles.
I don't see any nerf here. I see additional feature to existing module.
Originally by: Andreya lastly.. if your in a BS, ratting solo, i hope you die. if this game was built as it was meant to, a BS should always have support with him. this game would become a lot mroe team orientated if they made webbers cruiser and frigate mods only.
That is sorta a blob mentality. You should only survives because you have number. >.> Which is exactly what this topic is trying to address.
Perhaps the range need to be looked at. Instead of 6km, make it 40% increase in web range, but uses 3x cap, and have 10% penalty on web strength. So realistically, only battleship can uses it, existing electronic attack ship and huginn/rapier using this would make one stupidly powerful web machince.
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Vengarioth Skullshanks
Minmatar Victims of Confusion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 11:49:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Eka Maladay
By your logic, all speed fit are already worthless because there are always the huginns and Rapier. The point is that speed fit shouldn't be able to smells danger from a mile away and runs. It should have to engages and commit to the fight just like any other ship. Beside, a speed fit, properly operated, can avoid this ship easily, an 84% web is nothing for a vagabond. it will still move faster then most ship under an 84% penalty.
Rubbish ... If u engage you commit ... having a chance getting away is integral part of tactics with speed gangs - it's skirmish warfare you know. Like it or not. Whats that with the vaga comment of you ? Do u actually pvp ?
Web = Death. You may not get into web range .. be it 35k (rap, hug, recon lvl4) or any other new fantasy module. You dont start commiting to the fight when you get webbed OKAY .. when you are webbed you probably already ****** up. That's the whole point. If you introduce some magic module that gives more webrange Speedgangs will adapt and engage even from more range or they will become obsolete.
Speed gangs are tools for Hit and RUN tactics, you will never completely wtf pwn a speed gang because the day that happens speedgangs are dead and the whiners have won
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2007.12.04 13:54:00 -
[45]
Ah, this again, so I'll be more than happy to provide a link to a thread explaining that the vaga needs a fix. Please consider reading it as it directly addresses the concerns that have been brought forward by the OP.
Or, in short, OP is clueless, "no counter" is just wrong, and the vaga needs to get its bonuses fixed.
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Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.12.04 14:06:00 -
[46]
I approve of this necro.
Speed tanks need a counter that doesn't require you to fly one of two or three specific ships. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
fire 59
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.04 17:43:00 -
[47]
Weren't they going to add a graviton beam thingy like a target painter that would double it's mass and slow the little pest dowm?
I think they need to absolutely brutalise the ******** speed crap going on atm. Not a nerf bat, a sledgehammer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo |
Shakuul
Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.
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Posted - 2007.12.04 20:54:00 -
[48]
they could just increase web range to 200km
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Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.12.05 00:34:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Vengarioth Skullshanks Rubbish ... If u engage you commit ... having a chance getting away is integral part of tactics with speed gangs - it's skirmish warfare you know. Like it or not. Whats that with the vaga comment of you ?
Vagabond can decides when a fight ends. The other end doesn't. How is that 'commit'?
Quote: Do u actually pvp ?
why don't you google my name and see for yourself.
Quote: Web = Death. You may not get into web range .. be it 35k (rap, hug, recon lvl4) or any other new fantasy module. You dont start commiting to the fight when you get webbed OKAY .. when you are webbed you probably already ****** up. That's the whole point. If you introduce some magic module that gives more webrange Speedgangs will adapt and engage even from more range or they will become obsolete.
Incorrect. You commit when you are within warp scramabling range. Not everyone only fight against the station/gate mind you.
Quote: Speed gangs are tools for Hit and RUN tactics, you will never completely wtf pwn a speed gang because the day that happens speedgangs are dead and the whiners have won
Speed gangs shouldn't have that distintive advantage, which was mentioned by the op: Anything that counter them are distintive and easy to avoid.
Originally by: Wrayeth I approve of this necro.
Speed tanks need a counter that doesn't require you to fly one of two or three specific ships.
That about sum it up.
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