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Bistot Kid
The First Thing You'll Ever See
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Posted - 2007.05.17 18:26:00 -
[31]
I've seen in another thread a while back about a miner being popped and wondering what happened, that it appears to be enough to open the can and move the contents around.
------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook ------------------------------------- |
Michayel Lyon
The Corporation Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.05.17 18:30:00 -
[32]
The big question here is weather or not it is an exploit to use cans, shuttles, wrecks or other stuff to block the station exit points.
If it is an exploit, the guy should get his ship back (if it died), and the guy dropping the can should get (at least) a temp ban.
If it's not, well... Then I guess I'll be in Jita dropping cans like crazy.
--- Lasiverin Dark > Is everyone here allied? Red Knight > we are allied by our zombie like ability to ***** missions
GM Xamother: "Beeing online is not considered harassment or exploit." |
Vitrael
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.05.17 18:33:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Vitrael on 17/05/2007 18:31:45 This is stupid. Saying that trying to steal from a can but being unable is not stealing is like saying trying to pick someone's pocket but stopping because you realized you're wearing sweatpants doesn't make you a pickpocket.
You were at fault. It would've been a riot if they had popped you.
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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2007.05.17 18:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: tropic82
Holy crap batman, I Tried to steal. You cant steal from a can in a freighter because you cant take from a can in a freighter.
Yes, it's a bug. It's an exploit that CCP's not going to touch until they get flooded with petitions about it.
Also, if you find yourself blockaded at a station by a can do a show info and send an exploit petition about it. That is a petitionable offense since you can't 'drive through' cans and they don't eventually move out of your way.
Also, as *soon* as your ship emerges from any station do a quick course change 90-degrees in a random direction. Often this will kick your ship out away from the station at 1000m/s or more, even freighters. Problem there is that it also kicks you outside docking radius and sets you up for the freighter-gank exploit.
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Malcanis
High4Life
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Posted - 2007.05.17 18:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: tropic82 I undocked from a station in Jita in my freighter and was being blocked by a can. I opened the can and tried to take the 1 unit of ammo and put it in my freighter cargo. A message poped up saying I cant loot cans with my freighter only freighter wrecks or somthing like that. I spend the next 10 mins trying to go around the can and finally warp to the gate and put on my auto pilot.
At the gate a intercepter locks me and starts to fire on me. I figure he wants to get concorded for some reason. I had no globle flag or anything.Well a few mins go by and im starting to worry Concord isnt comming.
I quickly open a petition to CCP saying im not at war and I am going to loos my freighter in jita from a friget. By this time my freighter is into structure.Ccp gets back to me and says that I tried to steal from a can and thats why I was flaged to the other player and yes he can kill me.
Holy crap batman, I Tried to steal. You cant steal from a can in a freighter because you cant take from a can in a freighter. Cant take Cant Steal. Unless ccp changed the flaging system this is a bug and should be fixed. Not to mention i never got a global countdown for trying to steal.Trying to steal, Good god
I almost lost 2 billion today because of a bug and when I petitioned it I was told it was not a bug.Well im just woundering if this sort of stuff has happen to anyone else
So you'd be OK if I just walked into your house and had a look around at your stuff, as long as I didn't actually take anything?
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OldPueblo
H.Y.D.R.A. GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.17 19:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Malcanis
So you'd be OK if I just walked into your house and had a look around at your stuff, as long as I didn't actually take anything?
Oh please, that has to be the dumbest analogy ever in Eve so far. Do people live in cans in residential areas? Was that somebody's home? The can was placed there with the intent that someone would open it and steal. The man is "not guilty" since we're all handing out verdicts because he was given no indication that had been flagged. When you go to steal something and succeed, you know you are flagged because that's how the game works. Therefore if you don't succeed you should not be flagged since you have no way of knowing. Guess what also doesn't work, moving by a can and dragging contents to your cargo hold while hitting yes to the warning message. Except what if you've moved farther then 1500 and you then get the error that you are too far away? Guess what, the stuff is still in the can, you did not steal it, but you are still flagged though you have no indication of it. The flagging system is for stealing, nothing else. If it never leaves the can, it didn't get stolen. Why must we all complicate something so incredibly simple?
There are two solutions to this. Either create a system where you know you are flagged (have your HUD flash or something), or don't flag the person unless the stuff actually leaves the can. Problem solved.
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Mogrin
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Posted - 2007.05.17 19:51:00 -
[37]
I've come to the general understanding that it if is completely unnecessary and even a little bit inconvenient, its working as intended.
For it to be a bug it needs to not negatively effect anyone. Like if the can changed colors to purple, thats a bug. _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion |
Mr Bondy
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.05.17 20:03:00 -
[38]
From what I've read it sounds like: You opened the can, looked inside, saw it was something like one ammo and then you dragged it to your cargo but found that you couldn't
Thats definetly attempted theft, and so you are guilty - as given a ship you could actually loot in you would have stolen the item.
Im not saying that leaving cans infront of stations is right (and its probably an exploit) but the only bug I see you experianced was not getting an agro timer display (if you get one for stealing at all)
Mr B
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Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.17 20:12:00 -
[39]
I'm pretty sure you only have to move or stack the stuff in the can to get flagged, you are messing with their stuff at that point after all. Also did you WTZ on the gate and then hit autopilot for the jump or just autopilot out of Jita? If you're on autopilot in Jita you are asking for death.
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lusifar
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Posted - 2007.05.17 20:30:00 -
[40]
its freaking damn F stupid made THATS what it is.. so idiotic... the whole point of the flagging system was so people could mine in cans, if they wanted people to mine more before docking FGS give the minerals another M3.. this is just ******** beyound believe.!
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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.17 20:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: ToxicFire Tbh its not a bug but it is bad coding, the sequence of actions is rather incorrect, the warning about looting from a can and thus the steal trigger is before that of the you can't loot with freighters warning. So you attempt to steal from a can, accept the consequences (which flags you) but then the check if your a freighter comes into play which stops you from actually transfer anything but the stealing flag remains.
Tbh the order just needs changing.
I concur with this analysis. Op is not at fault, despite what is being said. He should be told "no looting from freighters" before the "are you sure you want to steal?" warning
Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting! |
dabster
Minmatar Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.05.17 21:23:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kaeana
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Cranewhite Lighting You did click yes to that big warning sign.
Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?
But the ammo never left the can.
Its obviously a bug.
Mmm I've had a similar experience. I tested it in a newbie frigate, i daren't risk a real ship.
If you have no ammo in your guns (and I assume no cap to fire a laser), but press the "fire" button, you will get concorded in high sec, even though no ammo / laser left your gun.
After I petitioned the loss of my Ibis and demanded a new replacement I was told it wasn't a bug, it was because I had the intention of doing it.
civilian gatlings dont use ammo to fire ^^ ___________________________ Trust In Rust!
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.17 22:30:00 -
[43]
hmm pretty sure blocking a freighter with a can when not wardeced in high sec is the same as bumping a freighter to ransom him in high sec..(yes, GM warned me for that one wayyyy back, when I was a naughty little boy...) -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.18 00:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ling Xiao
Originally by: Bish Ounen I see this crap pulled all the time in the newbie systems.
You see one or more jetcans floating right at the mouth of the undock zone, and the poor newbie ships bouncing off the jetcans like ping-pong balls. I make a point of going to newbie systems in my Assault Cruiser and emptying the jetcans. Yes, I get an aggro timer, but I know that the newbie gankers aren't there in battleships. Often I'll just see a rifter or a merlin hanging out around the entrance with no other obvious reason for being there. Almost every time when I pop the can it's some T1 frigate lighting up red. Yet I never hear of a GM coming down on these guys. Especially since they are hurting the most important members of the EVE community, the new players.
C-mon GMs! We need to lock newbie systems to non-faction players (no minmatar, caldari or amar players in Gallente newbie zones, etc.) and to players above a certain age and/or skill point level. There's no reason why newbies should EVER get ganked by higher players when they undock for the first time!
Hell no, newbies can read the warning message just like anyone else. And if they make the mistake of ignoring it, what do they lose? Nothing. That's the best time to make these mistakes, when they are costing you 500isk and not 500million isk. What better way to teach them that their actions can have consequences?
Wrong, the message to the new player is: EVE is full of gankers, leave it.
To add at that: placing can to obstruct undocking from a station is a bannable offense, can baitng new players is a bannable offense. People doing either should be squised by players and GM.
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Spacer John
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Posted - 2007.05.18 02:26:00 -
[45]
---"Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?"--- + ---"But...basicly you DID steal, just couldn't."--- + ---"This is stupid. Saying that trying to steal from a can but being unable is not stealing is like saying trying to pick someone's pocket but stopping because you realized you're wearing sweatpants doesn't make you a pickpocket.
You were at fault. It would've been a riot if they had popped you."--- + ---"So you'd be OK if I just walked into your house and had a look around at your stuff, as long as I didn't actually take anything?"--- + ---"From what I've read it sounds like: You opened the can, looked inside, saw it was something like one ammo and then you dragged it to your cargo but found that you couldn't
Thats definetly attempted theft, and so you are guilty - as given a ship you could actually loot in you would have stolen the item."---
HAHA goddamn look at all the online EVE lawyers. I'm glad people like you don't run my legal system. Real life examples rarely apply to video game situations.
-If I walk up to a store with the intent to steal and see things through the window I like, but the door is locked so I walk away, should a judge be able to convict me of a crime?
-If I left my wallet on your front door step, I would be fine with you looking in it if you left everything there.
-If the intent in peoples' hearts' counted as the violation of an action itself, there would be no "innocent" left on this planet
-According to the logic you guys put forward, I should get ISK from the intent of killing rats, I didn't actually kill them, but that was my "intent" right?
I guess the bad analogies are somewhat entertaining (much like driving by a car wreck) so please, keep em comming.
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.05.18 02:54:00 -
[46]
Hmm,, think I see whats happening. It's a criminal flagging to move the contents of a can around.
To be honest,, that sounds like a nightmare to code around thanks to the way objects move around in eve. Criminal flagging probably occurs when you change the location of an object in a can belonging to someone else, and presumably that location is your own. But yeah,, sounds like a difficult logic puzzle, esp if there's no concept of location ownership, just object ownership. I imagine the current code would do something like.
moveObject(person,obj){ if person!= obj.owner: crimflag person else move the object
Cheers for really shonky pseudocode!
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Ekscalybur
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Posted - 2007.05.18 03:10:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Adaris
Secondly, the system of agro timers and global criminal timers is flawed in some areas. There have been posts about these issues so I won't re-hash them here. But basically my opinion is this, you looked in the can, then tried to move the item into your hold. This is stealing. You could not take the item though after you effectively told concord you were going to take it (little warning box giving you the option to stop and do nothing) because the ship you are in could not take the item.
No, its not stealing. Attempting to steal and stealing are 2 different things. Why do you think stores, when they suspect someone is shoplifting, wait for them to try to leave the store before stepping in? Its only theft until the items are no longer in the rightful owners possession. The ammo never left that can, so it was never stolen. Yes, he tried to steal it, but trying to do something and actually doing something are two different things. I say if freighter pilots can be flagged for this, they might as well be able to loot from cans.
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Vana Gank
Gallente Kebabtossers
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Posted - 2007.05.18 04:54:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Vana Gank on 18/05/2007 04:53:49
Code rework is needed.- You are flagged as criminal the moment you are saying "yes" in a dialog.
- You should be flagged criminal the moment you actually *take* stuff.
CCP's been lazy, and put the flagging code in proximity of that dialog. They shold recode and move it to the part where you actually transfer stuff from a container/wreck. (Which is much more work compared to linking it to the dialog)
It's not sloppy work - they just didnt see the consequense of putting it there, compared to putting it where it should be.
-------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly. |
Alton Nailo
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.05.18 05:58:00 -
[49]
pirates are pirates deal with it honestly if you cant steal something right then dont steal it at all..
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Adm Tecumseh
Caldari The Templars Knights
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Posted - 2007.05.18 06:16:00 -
[50]
there is absolutely no reason to drop jet cans near stations except to grief. So CCP should code so that you cannot drop a jet can within 2 km of a station the same way you can't smartie within 2 km of a station.
Now thanks to my obvious intelect the problem is easily solved.
Adm
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Adm Tecumseh
Caldari The Templars Knights
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Posted - 2007.05.18 06:30:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ekscalybur
No, its not stealing. Attempting to steal and stealing are 2 different things. Why do you think stores, when they suspect someone is shoplifting, wait for them to try to leave the store before stepping in? Its only theft until the items are no longer in the rightful owners possession. The ammo never left that can, so it was never stolen. Yes, he tried to steal it, but trying to do something and actually doing something are two different things. I say if freighter pilots can be flagged for this, they might as well be able to loot from cans.
Thats wrong.
As soon as you take the item from the shelf with the intent to purloin it it is theft. Just the likelyhood of a conviction is higher if the perp leaves the store, unless you're a police officer. In which case I would arrest you as soon as I saw you tuck that steak into your pants. Mens rea and actus reaus (guilty thought and guilty actions)
The fact that this guy attempted to take something that was not his shows the actus rea. But the extenuating circumstance is that when he attempted to remove the single item from the can the intent was not to interfere with the owners lawful enjoyment and use of the item but rather to remove it from inpeding a public right of way. Therefore guilty action without guilty though subsequently a very small chance of conviction. So truely the fault here is CCP's for allowing griefers to plant the can where it was.
Like I said earlier remove the ability to jet a can within 2km of the station and that fixes the problem
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Vana Gank
Gallente Kebabtossers
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Posted - 2007.05.18 06:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Adm Tecumseh
Like I said earlier remove the ability to jet a can within 2km of the station and that fixes the problem
Like you said - thats a fix that could work. You need to consider other aspects to. Ships doying within a station range. No wreck/container? Bumping the tainer/wreck outside the station range?
I'll rather stick with fixing the cause - not just stepping up and fixing just 'one of the possible problems'.
-------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly. |
Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2007.05.18 09:52:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Adaris First of all I would have asked the owner of the can (since he was in local) to remove it, or asked someone to blow it up for me. I am conscious I am in a ships worth a bil so I don't take risks I can't avoid.
Secondly, the system of agro timers and global criminal timers is flawed in some areas. There have been posts about these issues so I won't re-hash them here. But basically my opinion is this, you looked in the can, then tried to move the item into your hold. This is stealing. You could not take the item though after you effectively told concord you were going to take it (little warning box giving you the option to stop and do nothing) because the ship you are in could not take the item.
As a comparrison: I leave my house in the morning. Outside my house you have parked your car. Your door is open, keys in the ignition. Because you are blocking my from walking a straight line out onto the street, I decide to open the door of your car and get inside it. (You looking in the can). Now I know this isn't my car. I have no right to be inside it or even contemplate moving it (you - destroying can/taking item) but because it is causing me distress I decide to flip the ignition and drive the car out of the way of my house. (so I knew it was wrong. Accepted the risk and did it. Sound like you?) BUT then after I flipped the ignition and put the car in gear and put my foot to the peddle I realised I could not do it. I wasn't wearing any shoes and so could not keep my foot on the peddle properly for some reason. (This is your freighter not being able to loot cans), so I can't drive your car out of my way after all, and It would seem It was all for nothing.
So I get out of the car, and close the door, walk around the car and out onto the street. Just as I near the other side of the road, which is were I wish to go, I see you, the owner of the car begin to throw stones at me. The stones hurt. (you taking damage). I begin to cry and panic at this. (You freaking out and petitioning the gm) However I claim I didn't steal his car like he is saying (rights on you). He hits me in the face with a stone I cringe (you in structure) and I die/jump out. lol (Don't know if you survived, I think you did.)
So the moral of that comparrison was: you opened that can, proceeded with the action of removing his stuff into your hold and your defence is that you were not stealing. Regardless of the limitations of your ship/my foot with no shoes, you stole or 'intended to steal'.
My verdict: GUILTY
its sad you almost lost your ship, but you need to be more careful and aware of the dangers when flying monehy like that. I mean you don't fit a titan with a civi shield booster do you? Thats careless for the money you are flying.
My Advice: Think before you do when flying money. You could have framed another sucker to pop it for you, asked the owner to pop it, ask your corp if you could take it with you being in Freighter, consult Jita Local, pray, or shake you magic 8 ball for an answer. You didn't do any of this so my pitty is limited, but thats my opinion and nothing for you to worry about or refute honestly. I don't know you as a person so this isn't personal, but i think what you did was stupid.
kk enough of that. Listen mate best of luck in the future and I hope you keep what happened to you in mind for the next time. Fly Safe and remember
NEVER Autopilot.
Um, except that parking a car in front of someone's drive way is itself a criminal offense. Which is what was being done by placing a can in front of the undock point. ----
The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos |
Adaris
Dark and Light inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.18 11:06:00 -
[54]
Good point. He had no right to park in front of my house, he knew he would cause me problems. Same thing with that can, it was set up to cause bumping issues, and bait new players and in this case our Freighter friend. You should not be allowed to deploy container within 1 million km of an object such as a station or gate, people use them to spam, advertise, insult and cause bumping issues. * * * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euZ0j7vtKEQ
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.05.18 11:13:00 -
[55]
You confessed your intent to steal.
Theft is a crime.
You should of lost your freighter and been imprisoned.
Your lucky that Concord are lax and weak about such issues.
Its because of people like you that this universe is going to hell.
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.18 11:13:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones But...basicly you DID steal, just couldn't.
Like yesterday, when I tried to swim through a river, but can't swim so I couldn't, and then I realized I swam to the other side without ever departing?
The above quote is just wrong on so many levels. He ATTEMPTED to steal, and couldn't. Nobody should be flagged for that IMHO. Its a bug, plain and simple, again IMHO. --
CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks. |
Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.05.18 11:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Adaris Good point. He had no right to park in front of my house, he knew he would cause me problems. Same thing with that can, it was set up to cause bumping issues, and bait new players and in this case our Freighter friend. You should not be allowed to deploy container within 1 million km of an object such as a station or gate, people use them to spam, advertise, insult and cause bumping issues.
Park in front of who's house ? lol, your gallente...
Need I remind you immigrants that Jita is in Caldari Soverign space.
Neither are you concord.
If littering is an issue, its there place to police and caution such individuals, not yours. What you wanted to do was blatent theft.
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SFShootme
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.05.18 11:40:00 -
[58]
Edited by: SFShootme on 18/05/2007 11:38:00 I would've tried to steal that can with t2 bpo's in it, but somebody else stole it before me.... Does this flag me aswell? Tho shall give Life, for Life. |
Malcanis
High4Life
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Posted - 2007.05.18 12:53:00 -
[59]
"The can was placed there with the intent that someone would open it and steal"
That was a lot of words just to agree with me...
...or perhaps you're contending that the OP didn't post that he found out that freighters can't remove from cans. Just HOW do you think he found out? Please show your work as well as the answer.
Maybe he was worried there were abandoned kittens in there and was moving the stuff around to look for them, eh?
Man, I hope those poor kittens made it...
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.05.18 13:20:00 -
[60]
How about we just stop the RL analogies or amateur law speculations and stick to the facts?
- No aggression counter was displayed -> BUG - A can was deployed at station entrance to hinder other pilots -> illegal action
Now if CCP fixes the first and actually takes steps against the second, this issue would already be non existent.
[sarcasm] Oh, wait, you could also use an alt! Now isn't that a great idea? It's such an easy and obvious solution to counter awkward or overcomplicated game mechanics and their unintended useage [/sarcasm]
_________________________________ - People are people wherever you go - |
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