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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
31
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Posted - 2017.06.15 11:22:25 -
[1] - Quote
Eternity Mistseeker wrote:So this was intentional, and not incompetence?
They're not mutually exclusive.
This was intentional because incompetence.
First their QA guy (responsible for getting things right) halts skill training for paid subscribers instead of ghost training alphas.
Then they gave a free pass to everyone who exploited ghost training for billions of sp for sale and self-injection.
Then CCP Falcon says with a snide smirk that it's not a mistake, but intentional. That spits directly in the face of nearly every EVE philosophy.
EVE's wealth distribution was already consolidated into just a few hands, but now that curve will be even sharper. I guess CCP wanted to see how closely they could imitate the US economy.
If we equate the price of PLEX to a living wage, then the similarities are even more relevant, as the average player's buying power just went straight down the shitter. As a result, fewer players will be able to afford PLEX, and large numbers of paid players are reporting decisions to unsubscribe - commonly citing that continuing would be a waste of time. And that's a reasonable sentiment, as this series of trainwrecks has just crashed the value of ISK, time, and even character development.
I'm not just saying this to be dramatic, I'm honestly a bit stunned and feel as if I've just witnessed a murder, and EVE was the victim.
I've seen some screw-ups, but this is historical - even legendary. Great job CCP. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
32
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Posted - 2017.06.15 12:56:46 -
[2] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: I found the underlying point of contention here. I guess this strikes against some people's idea of 'fairness'.
I don't think such ideas apply, CCP can do as they please with stuff they own, which is everything in EVE. And CCP clearly stated in the article that was on the launcher that the rewards would be per account. Like everything else in EVE, the people who paid attention (instead of just assuming it would be "per ticket") benefit from it.
Oh and that last sentence is gold. Yea i'm sure developers who could probably spawn isk into their own wallets without being caught would instead come up with a convoluted, sure to be noticed and sure to fail conspiracy plan that EVE forum posters could see a mile away lol.
This forum needs a facepalm emoji lol.
No, you're just not understanding what happened here, but forming an opinion anyway. You can get up to speed here.
The people who got hundreds, did so because they had massed accounts to take advantage of an exploit. This decision rewarded that exploit.
Sure, CCP can do as they like. But that doesn't remove the consequences of their actions. The players can do as they like as well. Guess who's an alpha clone next month? This guy. Along with many others.
If you want to continue to subscribe to a game with fundamentally broken mechanics, compounded by devs making bad decisions willy nilly, and ISD locking any threads they don't like while posting as faithful apologists, feel free.
EVE is a game that's played in the long-term. Playing a game where your development is planned a year at a time, requires faith that the team at the wheel isn't going botch things every time they touch it. If I were a shareholder, after this week I'd move for a no confidence vote. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
32
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Posted - 2017.06.15 13:07:52 -
[3] - Quote
Henry Plantgenet wrote:It's not an isk faucet though. People get these ships -> sell them (Isk is actually removed from the game through fees.) And isk is redistributed.
It doesn't much matter whether it was a faucet or a tidal wave. The economy is flooded. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
32
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Posted - 2017.06.15 13:17:12 -
[4] - Quote
Cypherous wrote:Caldari Phantom wrote:Everyone who has exploitet needs to loose everything they have gained. Easy.. And every isk they have made since then.
This is a game people actually pay for. And have done for many years.. I myself paid hundreds of dollars, im guessing a few thousand dollars. I pay this knowing everyone else plays on the same page, with the same set of rules..
Fix it, and fix it fast..
Its not an exploit, CCP have OFFICIALLY stated that people would get a package of ships per account registered to the email that purchased the tickets
The exploit was the ghost training.
Which was why they had all the accounts.
Which was why they got so many ships. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
32
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Posted - 2017.06.15 13:25:32 -
[5] - Quote
Cypherous wrote:Having multiple accounts was never against the rules though
No one said having multiple accounts was against the rules... I get the sense that reading is hard for you.
And beside that, CCP did not say per account. They said per ticket. You can read it yourself here... or can you?
Quote:In celebration of Fanfest 2017, we will be issuing a decommissioned CONCORD Pacifier class frigate with the sale of every Fanfest ticket.
In addition to this, weGÇÖll be issuing a decommissioned CONCORD Enforcer class cruiser with every Fanfest ticket that is purchased early, before January 1st 2017. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
34
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Posted - 2017.06.15 14:15:22 -
[6] - Quote
FIX IT wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: CCP had it's most profitable year last year, a bunch of hurf blurfing online isn't going to change anything.
i think ccp has been doing quite well, I am fine with plex and sp boosters etc, but this last week has been crasy. i mean they turned of my skill training, on a payed account. I still don't know how long my account wasn't training. This isn't normal. ooo - ccp just declared ghost training an exploit https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-ghost-training/
Satisfying as it is to throw that in the faces of everyone who defended it in this thread, a "reprimand" is hardly adequate to address the impact it had on the game. And it only serves to encourage players to take maximum advantage of future exploits before they're officially declared as such - common sense be damned. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
35
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Posted - 2017.06.15 16:27:47 -
[7] - Quote
I guess you just get to do whatever you like and rubber stamp your own decisions? Seems about on par with the rest of CCP this week. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
35
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Posted - 2017.06.15 16:32:51 -
[8] - Quote
Caldari Phantom wrote:Cypherous wrote:Caldari Phantom wrote:Everyone who has exploitet needs to loose everything they have gained. Easy.. And every isk they have made since then.
This is a game people actually pay for. And have done for many years.. I myself paid hundreds of dollars, im guessing a few thousand dollars. I pay this knowing everyone else plays on the same page, with the same set of rules..
Fix it, and fix it fast..
Its not an exploit, CCP have OFFICIALLY stated that people would get a package of ships per account registered to the email that purchased the tickets I was thinking about the ghost training, thats an exploit isnt it? The reedemed ships are just nonsense..
Yes, it was declared an exploit. And now that classification is being used to silence all discussion, despite everyone already knowing exactly what ghost training is - hence the outrage. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
38
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Posted - 2017.06.15 19:21:58 -
[9] - Quote
Kixx wrote:So you basically are shooting the messenger and you really don't want people coming forward showing your errors.
The precedent is now set if you get away with something CCP blatantly overlooks then keep your mouth shut and collect.
"Hey guys someone left their safe open. Just letting you know. I took everything I could carry for my trouble. To hell with how that affects everyone else."
That does not exactly qualify for shooting the messenger. So sorry you don't get to keep what you knew you shouldn't have exploited, but that's not exactly "precedent". It's specifically stated in the rules.
Letting you get away with it would tell everyone it's okay to exploit things as much as possible before they're declared exploits.
Plot twist: it's not. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
38
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Posted - 2017.06.15 19:31:14 -
[10] - Quote
Erik Valensteed wrote:Please help me understand something.
Long rambly paragraph of false statements - most notably "paid at least $16 USD per month...per account"
If that was what they did, that would just be called "playing the game". That's not what happened - you knew that already but I'm going to correct your narrative anyway. It's called ghost training because the training continued at omega speed for up to 19 months after plexing for ONE month.
And if you're not sure why you're the dregs of society, I already have that spelled out quite clearly right here. |
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Uthgaard
Because Wardec
41
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Posted - 2017.06.15 20:11:24 -
[11] - Quote
Dude I think we can safely move on from that point. You've been running it into the ground all morning. Even the devs have said you're wrong.
Move on. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
41
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Posted - 2017.06.15 20:17:25 -
[12] - Quote
Axhind wrote:people have come out and exposed a thing that is bad for the game rather than sit on it for personal profit.
Yeah that's not even remotely accurate. Dude sold all of the ships and bragged about all the cash he made.
TF out of here with trying to act like he reported it to CCP and donated the proceeds to orphans. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
41
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Posted - 2017.06.15 20:54:03 -
[13] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:because then my post will probably get deleted.
That's a safe bet. I've had 2 yoinked from this thread and a thread lock. Which is silly because the same ISD who did it can be found defending the thoroughly described process all over the first three pages before it was officially declared an exploit. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
43
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Posted - 2017.06.17 16:17:58 -
[14] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: So, it has been over 48 hours since this post went up about " a couple of our amazing customer support guys are going to come in and clarify your concerns with a few answers over what to expect in terms of how weGÇÖll be investigating this."
Don't see any activity from said customer support guys. Precisely when are are these CCP employees going to answer questions? Has CCP frozen all transactions regarding these ships, to at least slow down the laggards from cashing out? The smart ones sold off within hours, and have already laundered their ISK through multiple transactions and players. Another smart play would be for CCP to remove ALL these ships, temporarily, from the game.
Has any of this been done?
Nope.
But be careful discussing it on the forums. Apparently disagreeing with CCP is "discrimination" now. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
43
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Posted - 2017.06.18 08:10:25 -
[15] - Quote
"Following the money" sounds simple in a theoretical situation, but since CCP chose to take the weekend off rather than stanch the bleeding immediately, it's beyond repair. Every hour the impact ripples through to more characters and the lines blur further. And in a game where account creation costs nothing and is trivial (only need 1 email address), it will propagate through the playerbase faster than you can even query the logs.
I'm speaking from experience, the server is a living thing. This would have been a nightmare to stop if they had frozen the accounts and tried to reverse it the same day. Now imagine trying to do it a few thousand times while the clock is ticking and more trades are happening.
Most of the exploiters will have shuffled it all through a mess of alts who were on VPNs and obfuscated it with different transaction methods. People talk a good game on the forums where they want to sound innocent, but the behavior in the logs generally shows that exploiters and RMTers are lying $#1tcakes who knew what they were doing and went to great lengths to hide it.
And since these are people who just farmed billions of SP, even a negative wallet is meaningless. Who cares when you can just inject a new character and abandon the consequences.
This is permanently lodged in the economy, that ship has sailed. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.19 18:03:09 -
[16] - Quote
You still don't get it. You've acknowledged the ghost training bit, but the fact is nobody likes the idea that people are rewarded for the number of accounts linked to with email address. While the ghost training was just absurd beyond measure, that was the cause for concern.
It's a meaningless and arbitrary basis for multiplying a reward, since there is no cost to create the accounts apart from the time to make them. It also implements a stupid 'account creation arms race' metagame where all of your players must make thousands of accounts to remain on equal footing.
If you want to reward one account more than another, do it in a meaningful way, such as account age or total account time subscribed. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.19 18:18:02 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:I've spoken further with our customer support team, and they'll be looking at this thread today.
Will support also be reviewing the deleted posts? Because with the way the rules are set up now, the most relevant parts of the discussion have been moderated into oblivion citing irrelevant rules against discussing prospective (not announced and confirmed) exploits.
You might not like what we have to say, but we say it because we care about and are invested in the future of the game.
When discussion is outlawed, only outlaws will discuss. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.19 18:42:27 -
[18] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You drain the bad actors wallet. FFS, how hard is this to follow. Consider what you can do with a negative wallet balance. You cannot buy anything. You could maybe sell something like ore, but you probably won't be able to refine it. Your options become extremely limited when your wallet balance goes negative. You are completely over thinking this.
You're underthinking it, this was addressed yesterday.
Uthgaard wrote:And since these are people who just farmed billions of SP, even a negative wallet is meaningless. Who cares when you can just inject a new character and abandon the consequences.
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Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.19 19:15:14 -
[19] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote:
- We won't be putting a throwaway Alpha account into negative wallet status. In case of the ships already being sold, we will be tracking the ISK and taking action where it actually matters. We are following the money.
If you do use negative wallet as a punitive action, how are you going to ensure that it isn't dodged with skill extractors & injectors?
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Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.19 19:57:22 -
[20] - Quote
How about you learn to use google instead? I'm not your personal tutor.
And what's with block quoting the exact same page-long block quote twice in a row to say two sentences?
All you're doing is spamming away away relevant discussion. TF out of here with that. The GMs are speaking. |
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Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.19 20:06:37 -
[21] - Quote
Okay since some of you are having trouble connecting the dots, I'm gonna break this down barney style.
The issue is
Concord Ships
... on ...
Ghost Trainers
Ghost trainers already have lots of skill injectors
Ghost trainers also have plenty of accounts
That's why they got all of the Concord ships!
And they can use any of these accounts
To interact with the market!
So if they get a negative wallet
They can simply extract the character
to inject a new one!
And in most cases, already have enough injectors
To inject a new one without ever needing to touch the affected account! |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.19 22:24:30 -
[22] - Quote
I'm not talking about a nonexistent problem.
I'm explaining the fundamentals to the people spamming off the relevant discussion by commenting without first taking the time to read the thread or understand the issues.
In other words: what I'm doing right now, with you.
We have 3 pages of text since the GM response, for a total of two sentences which actually advance the discussion. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.20 00:46:11 -
[23] - Quote
If you read the GM's response, you'd have noticed the part about how much time it takes to track everything.
And how how accurate we were about all of the difficulties with tracking it.
And how there is a finite amount of time they can spend on this.
Following the money is not a magical process where you push one button, know all and see all.
It's grueling work with spreadsheets that makes most EVE spreadsheets look simple. Everyone knew this was an exploit, and everyone knew this was coming. And I can assure you that, having actually tracked the flow of exploited assets in an MMO myself, more than once, that 90% if not all of the people taking advantage began with precautions to hide assets at the outset. And they are creative little *****.
Some hope to lose you by process of exhaustion, with trade after trade after trade, through numerous accounts, in numerous directions, using various exchange methods. This is an annoying deterrent at best, but it is very effective at wasting available man-hours.
The smartest ones try to make it impossible to identify their assets by creating reasonable doubt. By acquiring items from themselves on accounts that have no common identifying feature (VPN IP, separate email address, different physical computer or emulated virtual machine). Then by availing themselves of legitimate trade channels, they make the distinction between legitimate trades and asset hiding murky enough that even if you are pretty sure about it*, you can't proceed in good conscience with anything that will stand up to an appeal.
Seem extreme? It is, but it's also reality because anyone taking the time to set up 500+ accounts isn't doing it for the ISK. They're in it for the RMT, no doubt about it.
So yes, there is hiding of assets. If you'd read any of the thread prior to the GM response, you'd know that can explain all of this because I have tracked the flow of exploited assets in an MMO multiple times, and it sucks.
So, back to the matter at hand. I think it is worth the few minutes (for the staff, not the forum peanut gallery) to consider how they will make sure no one dodges their consequences, because it is not only possible, but likely.
* Pretty much every modern MMO scans the non-personal identifying features of your hardware, such as install path, computer user name, network name, and MAC address. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.20 01:01:51 -
[24] - Quote
I don't know whether you lack the sophistication to understand all of the information I provided, or are simply determined to argue about it. But the difference is moot, since the question is to the GM - not you.
You're not the first person to be ignorant on the internet, and you won't be the last. |
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