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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
4051
|
Posted - 2017.06.19 23:09:10 -
[181] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:I'm not talking about a nonexistent problem. Yes you are. Because the problem you are talking about is already fixed by the punishment they will have/be received for Ghost training in the first place. You seem to be under the delusion that anyone who used the ghost training exploit is only getting the Concord ships/isk taken off them, which is not how CCP punish exploits. They take all the isk related in any way to the exploits. So all that stuff from the ghost training itself will be getting removed in some way.
What this means is the worry about people avoiding a negative isk wallet by using extractors and injectors is no different to anyone else currently since they won't have special resources to deal with it, and extractors and injectors carry with them their own penalty already. So there is no problem, because you fail to understand the situation yourself.
P.S. Stop digging your hole deeper here. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6691
|
Posted - 2017.06.19 23:39:42 -
[182] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:Okay since some of you are having trouble connecting the dots, I'm gonna break this down barney style. The issue is Concord Ships... on ... Ghost TrainersGhost trainers already have lots of skill injectors Ghost trainers also have plenty of accounts That's why they got all of the Concord ships! And they can use any of these accounts To interact with the market! So if they get a negative walletThey can simply extract the character to inject a new one! And in most cases, already have enough injectors To inject a new one without ever needing to touch the affected account!
They. Can. Follow. The. Money. And. The. Skill. Injectors. And. The. Ships.
Now, somebody who say, runs it all through a myriad of 500 accounts with 500 emails. Yeah, he might get away (with some ill gotten gains) because CCP might just not want to devote that much time to such a person.
Stop being so butthurt over something a small fraction of players have done and may get away with. Most will be caught and have their accounts pillaged by CCP. If their wallet goes negative they have few options left for that account. Even buying a PLEX is unlikely to save them.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6691
|
Posted - 2017.06.19 23:40:29 -
[183] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Uthgaard wrote:Okay since some of you are having trouble connecting the dots, I'm gonna break this down barney style. The issue is Concord Ships... on ... Ghost Trainers You mean the Ghost training that they will also be getting punished for ON TOP of the Concord ships. Anyone found to have knowingly exploited ghost training (which is pretty obvious if you en mass logged them in again to extract) isn't going to be making profits off that ghost training already. So the problem you are talking about is irrelevant & non existent.
In the past this kind of thing has lead to pemabans.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Djsaeu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
69
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Posted - 2017.06.20 00:24:26 -
[184] - Quote
Not a problem, I just cancelled my subscription today. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.20 00:46:11 -
[185] - Quote
If you read the GM's response, you'd have noticed the part about how much time it takes to track everything.
And how how accurate we were about all of the difficulties with tracking it.
And how there is a finite amount of time they can spend on this.
Following the money is not a magical process where you push one button, know all and see all.
It's grueling work with spreadsheets that makes most EVE spreadsheets look simple. Everyone knew this was an exploit, and everyone knew this was coming. And I can assure you that, having actually tracked the flow of exploited assets in an MMO myself, more than once, that 90% if not all of the people taking advantage began with precautions to hide assets at the outset. And they are creative little *****.
Some hope to lose you by process of exhaustion, with trade after trade after trade, through numerous accounts, in numerous directions, using various exchange methods. This is an annoying deterrent at best, but it is very effective at wasting available man-hours.
The smartest ones try to make it impossible to identify their assets by creating reasonable doubt. By acquiring items from themselves on accounts that have no common identifying feature (VPN IP, separate email address, different physical computer or emulated virtual machine). Then by availing themselves of legitimate trade channels, they make the distinction between legitimate trades and asset hiding murky enough that even if you are pretty sure about it*, you can't proceed in good conscience with anything that will stand up to an appeal.
Seem extreme? It is, but it's also reality because anyone taking the time to set up 500+ accounts isn't doing it for the ISK. They're in it for the RMT, no doubt about it.
So yes, there is hiding of assets. If you'd read any of the thread prior to the GM response, you'd know that can explain all of this because I have tracked the flow of exploited assets in an MMO multiple times, and it sucks.
So, back to the matter at hand. I think it is worth the few minutes (for the staff, not the forum peanut gallery) to consider how they will make sure no one dodges their consequences, because it is not only possible, but likely.
* Pretty much every modern MMO scans the non-personal identifying features of your hardware, such as install path, computer user name, network name, and MAC address. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
4053
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 00:52:46 -
[186] - Quote
And anyone who set 500+ accounts up and got 500+ ships, set them all up on the SAME email. If they didn't set them up on the same email and therefore far easier than your worst case scenario to track, they didn't get the ships. So yes, you are still going on about a problem that doesn't exist. |
Uthgaard
Because Wardec
44
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Posted - 2017.06.20 01:01:51 -
[187] - Quote
I don't know whether you lack the sophistication to understand all of the information I provided, or are simply determined to argue about it. But the difference is moot, since the question is to the GM - not you.
You're not the first person to be ignorant on the internet, and you won't be the last. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
4053
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 01:30:55 -
[188] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:I don't know whether you lack the sophistication to understand all of the information I provided, or are simply determined to argue about it. But the difference is moot, since the question is to the GM - not you.
You're not the first person to be ignorant on the internet, and you won't be the last. Oh, I understand all the information you provided. It's just irrelevant and doesn't mean what you think it does. |
Boniface Lemurne
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2017.06.20 03:23:05 -
[189] - Quote
What grinds my gears is that the proposed hull looks almost nothing like the Marshal advertised in the 'Updates' page. It's one of the most gorgeous hulls in the game that people have been waiting for almost a decade for. Please reconsider changing the hull of the battleship, or at least making it look more similar to the current Marshal. |
Thomas Lot
Astrocomical Warped Intentions
152
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Posted - 2017.06.20 03:46:25 -
[190] - Quote
Trust is easily lost and not easily regained.
Within the last week, CCP Falcon and Quant through their asinine and inexcusable words, Hulls given was intentional, and1% of 1%, respectively, made the community acutely aware how out of touch they were, and still are, with the level of mistrust we now have with the developers ability to run the game fairly for all players. There has been no apology for their words, nor has there been an adequate explanation for why they made the statements in the first place.
Saying to the player base... "Don't worry, the ships will be available to you all very soon" is insulting.
We the honest players have long told the developers what the source of the problem is: Skill Injectors and Alpha Clones.
It is time to admit that the addition of both have caused more problems than CCP knows how to deal with. I will admit that I have bought some few skill injectors to train past the long train times of weeks to months at a time.
Nevertheless... convince me how CCP will prevent individual players from running more than one Alpha account and the removal of all ISK associated with the Concord Hull screw-up, and a report on how much ISK is removed, I hope it is in the Trillions.
Nothing less will ever do anything towards repairing the lost trust. |
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Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
2952
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 04:49:38 -
[191] - Quote
Thomas Lot wrote: ...Justified dissatisfaction... You are completely correct.
The things done are outrageous and unacceptable!
I will probably leave the game over this and it sounds like you will also!
In the meantime...May I have your stuff, please?...temporarily, of course.
EvE security zones in pictures
EvE quick reference pdf
EvE links
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6693
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 05:30:59 -
[192] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:And anyone who set 500+ accounts up and got 500+ ships, set them all up on the SAME email. If they didn't set them up on the same email and therefore far easier than your worst case scenario to track, they didn't get the ships. So yes, you are still going on about a problem that doesn't exist.
Yup. So to escape this via multiple accounts and multiple email and getting ships on all those accounts means...multiple fanfest ticket purchases.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6693
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 05:32:28 -
[193] - Quote
Djsaeu wrote:Not a problem, I just cancelled my subscription today.
Can I have your stuff.
Players these days are just a bunch of pansies, aren't they.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6693
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 05:44:55 -
[194] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:If you read the GM's response, you'd have noticed the part about how much time it takes to track everything.
And how how accurate we were about all of the difficulties with tracking it.
And how there is a finite amount of time they can spend on this.
Following the money is not a magical process where you push one button, know all and see all.
It's grueling work with spreadsheets that makes most EVE spreadsheets look simple. Everyone knew this was an exploit, and everyone knew this was coming. Having personally tracked the flow of exploited assets in an MMO myself (more than once) I can assure you that most exploiters began with precautions to hide their assets. And they are creative little *****.
Some hope to lose you by process of exhaustion, with trade after trade after trade, through numerous accounts, in numerous directions, using various exchange methods. This is an annoying deterrent at best, but it is very effective at wasting available man-hours.
The smartest ones create reasonable doubt to keep you from distinguishing their assets from other players'. They acquire items from themselves on accounts that have no common identifying feature (VPN IP, separate email address, different physical computer or emulated virtual machine). By doing this, they blur the distinction between legitimate trades and their own assets. Done correctly, the evidence becomes murky enough that even if you are pretty sure about it*, you can't proceed in good conscience, without the possibility of screwing over an innocent player.
Seem extreme? It is, but it's also reality because anyone taking the time to set up 500+ accounts isn't doing it for the ISK. They're in it for the RMT, no doubt about it.
So yes, there is hiding of assets. Back to the matter at hand. I think it is worth the few minutes (for the staff, not the forum peanut gallery) to consider how they will make sure no one dodges their consequences, because it is not only possible, but likely.
* Pretty much every modern MMO scans the non-personal identifying features of your hardware, such as install path, computer user name, network name, and MAC address.
Reasonable doubt...what is this a criminal court? CCP doesn't need reasonable doubt. They can nuke your account from orbit then delete all your plaintive emails.
And as noted those 500 accounts to get 500 ships have to have the exact same email. So then what? They are going to send them all to just one account. That sells them. Then what with the proceeds? Create more accounts with more emails, VPN, virtual machines and so forth? How many are going to do this do you think?
And yes, ya numpty, I did read the GM's response. About 100 man hours to get about 70% of the work done. Yes they are going to hit a point of diminishing returns and call it a day. But lets stop go over somethings....
The problem players had to do all of the following:
1. Set up and SP farm. 2. Use the alpha ghost training exploit. 3. Buy a Fanfest ticket. 4. All their accounts have to have the same email address...or they bought multiple tickets.
Now out of this subset of players how many did all of this with the intent of expoiting for both the ghost training and the ships--i.e. have taken those steps you outline above?
I am going to guess not many.
But please go on being ridiculously butthurt.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
brainless moron
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 09:25:49 -
[195] - Quote
On a lighter note, I just had a banana sandwich and it was awesome, banana sandwiches are the best sandwiches bro's =ƒوى |
Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
74
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 10:00:23 -
[196] - Quote
brainless moron wrote:On a lighter note, I just had a banana sandwich and it was awesome, banana sandwiches are the best sandwiches bro's =ƒوى Name checks out.
I mean who does that. Putting banana on a sandwich; what are we, animals? |
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
583
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 10:31:52 -
[197] - Quote
Boniface Lemurne wrote:What grinds my gears is that the proposed hull looks almost nothing like the Marshal advertised in the 'Updates' page. It's one of the most gorgeous hulls in the game that people have been waiting for almost a decade for. Please reconsider changing the hull of the battleship, or at least making it look more similar to the current Marshal.
I have to disagree, while the old hull wasn't bad, it didn't do anything for me, either. The new one looks sweet, though. Here's to hoping any additional changes make it look even better, instead of worse. |
Djsaeu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
69
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 16:43:18 -
[198] - Quote
Not giving anything away, to just give things away means that I am only taking a break. This place has reminded me to much of real world politics. I am seeing similar things as in a election process, promise this and get something else. I come here to get away from the real world not to be reminded of it at every turn.
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6706
|
Posted - 2017.06.20 16:48:26 -
[199] - Quote
Djsaeu wrote:Not giving anything away, to just give things away means that I am only taking a break. This place has reminded me to much of real world politics. I am seeing similar things as in a election process, promise this and get something else. I come here to get away from the real world not to be reminded of it at every turn.
You are assuming I'll give it back. Gimme your stuff, I'll sell it, refine it, or use it. If you come back? Who are you again?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3470
|
Posted - 2017.06.27 14:20:46 -
[200] - Quote
So any updates from CCP? The clock is ticking. This forum is toast in what, 3 weeks?
More and more it looks like CCP will simply hope that peoples' memory of this fades, and this thread in an archive. Remember folks, CCP has a long history of backing way off on work being done, as so many dev's take their summer holidays.
Not that I blame them leaving. Unless you like salmon fishing, and hiking to see stunning vistas of fire juxtaposed against ice, not a lot to do in a country with the population the size of a medium sized city. |
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Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
665
|
Posted - 2017.06.27 15:07:55 -
[201] - Quote
Zirashi wrote:brainless moron wrote:On a lighter note, I just had a banana sandwich and it was awesome, banana sandwiches are the best sandwiches bro's =ƒوى Name checks out. I mean who does that. Putting banana on a sandwich; what are we, animals?
When I was young I liked my peanut butter and ketchup sandwiches. I even tried it on pancakes, but that was a disaster.
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Maxi dela Tierra
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2017.06.27 17:23:56 -
[202] - Quote
Steve Spooner wrote:I think I am legitimately done with the game. Why bother playing the game and making isk when you can pull stuff like this and make so much more?
Yeah and i am done with my job. why bother to work and my boss makes so much more money by cheating and ripping of the customers?
Heck, i am even done with life. why not just kill myself? I am a honest hardworking guy who tries to make a humble living and so many others just got everything stuffed into their asses by their rich, shady parents. |
Kixx
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2017.06.28 10:16:19 -
[203] - Quote
I see many of these problems tied to the fact of the ghost training exploit that many people had claimed they reported weeks ago but CCP seemed to care less and say nothing about.
Ghost training was talked about so casually it had posts on youtube telling everyone how to do it and included was the fact it was reported and nothing was said back about it, giving the average player an opinion it was ok.
I don't see how you can treat an exploit so casually then turn on a dime in 1 day because it finally did something extremely harmful.
It WAS reported, they did nothing, and there should be consequences for those who did nothing. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6735
|
Posted - 2017.06.28 14:37:13 -
[204] - Quote
Kixx wrote:I see many of these problems tied to the fact of the ghost training exploit that many people had claimed they reported weeks ago but CCP seemed to care less and say nothing about.
Ghost training was talked about so casually it had posts on youtube telling everyone how to do it and included was the fact it was reported and nothing was said back about it, giving the average player an opinion it was ok.
I don't see how you can treat an exploit so casually then turn on a dime in 1 day because it finally did something extremely harmful.
It WAS reported, they did nothing, and there should be consequences for those who did nothing.
Ghost training used to be a thing before Alphas, skill injectors and the like. You'd let your sub expire with a long skill and when you re-subbed you'd get the SP. It was like this for years. CCP then came out and said, "Nope, that is over." So irrespective of CCP's response now this was what can be called a "known exploit". That is people are taking advantage of something that CCP took out of the game. To be quite honest the most egregious exploiters should consider themselves luck if all CCP does is take away their ill-gotten gains. Being permanently banned is the typical response.
As for the harm, I'm not sure I see what you are getting at? What harm? The CONCORD ships? Meh...so they sold a bunch. If they were ghost training they'll have that ISK confiscated and even if not what is the actual harm? Was there too much ISK injected into the game? No. Were the players buying said CONCORD ships harmed? No. Did the presence of these ships harm the game? No. Maybe you can hang your hat on some sort of income inequality argument, but even there it may not be much more than another "meh" given the vast wealth many players have legitimately acquired. The biggest harm I can see is what might be called "optics" that this looks bad. But CCP has already stated they are going to rectify this problem by confiscating any and all gains made from ghost training accounts.*
*Hopefully only those that tried to benefit from ghost training--i.e. a player who let a sub expire and got the extra SP but did not extract and sell them probably should not be punished.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
greasy toad
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2017.06.28 15:07:02 -
[205] - Quote
I'm not seeing how any of this is CCP'S fault.
This is all down to you lot..the remaining players.
If I put my car in for a service, and i don't get what I've asked for i have 2 choices, i can go back and complain or I can go to another garage.
Not in Eve. CCP are not interested in any of your complaints because they know that you'll keep coming back for more. There is no reason for them to improve their service because most of you can't leave.
Try some other games and you will find out what OMPE means :)
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Commander Spurty
1685
|
Posted - 2017.06.29 10:42:16 -
[206] - Quote
More ships than buyers tbh
There are good ships,
And wood ships,
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are Spaceships
Built by CCP
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