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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
240
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Posted - 2012.01.06 11:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Hirana Yoshida wrote: Completely unbiased, fair and balanced personal opinion: Null PvP should be renamed to FCvFC as target calling, fleet make-up and arranging for a Titan-bridge/hot-drop are the deciding factors .. calling it PvP is like calling Uwe Boll's movies "art".
You have literally 0 kills in 0.0 as far back as I cared to look (10 months). And that affects the validity of my claim how exactly? Ever considered that I might *gasp* posses more than character?
Never made it any secret that Veshta Yoshida is the elder sister in the family. Have to go back a while as I got out of null (when FW kicked off) before it devolved into pure blobbing and became just 2-3 blocs .. you know back when 'neighbour' didn't mean everyone on left or right of a central line drawn across the entirety of the Eve map |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
251
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Posted - 2012.01.06 11:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:And that affects the validity of my claim how exactly? Ever considered that I might *gasp* posses more than character?
My highly effective and wide-ranging spy network told me Veshta was your main, but you mostly gave up on TQ to play on the China server. While you were gone, you missed out on at least 2 FOTM shifts and the small-gang renaissance in NPC null after the collapse of so many sov alliances. Ofc, the knock-on effects of the anom nerf eventually caught up and depopulated 0.0, but it was nice while it lasted.
Anyway, if you're throwing up nullsec PvP as FCvsFC, lowsec would fall under that header as well, given that 80% of what goes on in a gangfight in nullsec also happens in lowsec. Or are you seriously claiming that bubbles, bombs and lack of GCC remove all individual skill from PvP? |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
240
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Posted - 2012.01.06 12:48:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nope just on Vesh and never went to China .. couldn't be arsed .. was active on FHC's forum though. Been semi-active in FW the whole time.
Individual skill ceases to be of import as numbers increase.
When exactly the change from PvP to FCvFC happens depends on ship sizes, but generally speaking (as in average) around 30-40 mixed fleet or so in my experience. Essentially when the fleet/gang becomes able to one-volley any subcap, the function of the individual becomes one of pressing a button when told to by the FC. |
Kessiaan
Greater Order Of Destruction Happy Endings
27
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Posted - 2012.01.07 02:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
My first two ventures to nullsec were terrible.
Now I live in Stain. There's always something happening here, and no sov. BS ever (though I did somehow get talked into shooting a small POS tonight... but that's another story) My killboard - http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kessiaan |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
251
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Posted - 2012.01.07 04:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote: When exactly the change from PvP to FCvFC happens depends on ship sizes, but generally speaking (as in average) around 30-40 mixed fleet or so in my experience. Essentially when the fleet/gang becomes able to one-volley any subcap, the function of the individual becomes one of pressing a button when told to by the FC.
So basically it's not some mythical low/null divide, but rather numbers? Gotcha. |
Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
105
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Posted - 2012.01.07 04:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
Smiling Menace wrote:He has a point you know.
If it's not a DBRB fleet, PvP in Null sucks.
True story that.
Are there two DBRBs? |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
286
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Posted - 2012.01.07 05:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Individual skill ceases to be of import as numbers increase.
I've been thinking about this quote for a while (a short while, I admit). I agree, one person screwing up usually doesn't harm the entire fleet, unless that person is in one of the few key roles. However if half of the fleet are idiots, it will die in a fire pretty rapidly.
Yes, EVE is not a particularly high-skill game (compared to, say, fighting games or some FPSs); at least in the kind of circumstances we're talking about.
But I wonder, is that even possible? Can you give an example of a mechanic from an existing game (or even make one up) where you can have 100 people fighting together, and still have the individual skill of every person have a major impact? To me, this would very easily lead to situations (I heard are) common in LoL and similar games: one person screws up and brings the whole team down. And with the number of people participating in EVE fights, the chances of one person screwing up - even unintentionally - are very high. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
251
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Posted - 2012.01.07 23:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:To me, this would very easily lead to situations (I heard are) common in LoL and similar games: one person screws up and brings the whole team down. And with the number of people participating in EVE fights, the chances of one person screwing up - even unintentionally - are very high.
Fights in LoL are well within the realm of what we call "small gang" in EVE, 5 on 5 at most. But don't worry, it's entirely possible for one person being terrible to cause an entire fleet to welp; my personal favorite all the logis being in one wing, which was then wing-warped to wrong location and bubbled while everyone else in the fleet DIAF w/o reps. |
Dessau
8
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Posted - 2012.01.08 01:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
Got dead in Fountain today.
Great death, would die again. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
245
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Posted - 2012.01.08 13:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:...But I wonder, is that even possible?... Wonder no more, for it doesn't exist.
The problem I have with null pew at present is that CCP, despite professing their love for the small scale/skirmishing, have made it not only blob friendly but managed to make the blob mandatory .. primarily through the use of EHP grind mechanics. It blobbing kicked off when they introduced POS + Sov, and every aspect since then has added more EHP to grind .. capitals, stations+services, TCU, SBU and now POCO's. According to the blogs preceeding Dominion it was their intention to spread things out, but development was cut short for whatever reason.
Lose the EHP grind mechanics and blobs will scatter as they become redundant .. especially if EHP mechanics gets replaced with some form of objective based system covering a larger area (hint: rip-off Incursion).
Until that hallowed day, Null-sec PvP will suck for everyone but coffin pilots who still have some autonomy and can thus bring individual skill to bear. |
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RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1152
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Posted - 2012.01.08 20:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:...But I wonder, is that even possible?... Wonder no more, for it doesn't exist. The problem I have with null pew at present is that CCP, despite professing their love for the small scale/skirmishing, have made it not only blob friendly but managed to make the blob mandatory .. primarily through the use of EHP grind mechanics. It blobbing kicked off when they introduced POS + Sov, and every aspect since then has added more EHP to grind .. capitals, stations+services, TCU, SBU and now POCO's. According to the blogs preceeding Dominion it was their intention to spread things out, but development was cut short for whatever reason. Lose the EHP grind mechanics and blobs will scatter as they become redundant .. especially if EHP mechanics gets replaced with some form of objective based system covering a larger area (hint: rip-off Incursion). Until that hallowed day, Null-sec PvP will suck for everyone but coffin pilots who still have some autonomy and can thus bring individual skill to bear.
Incursions work because there's a reward for limiting your fleet size. If there were a flat 10m/pilot you can cram into the site, fleets of rifters big enough to blot out the sun. PvP is like that. The goal is to do it faster (thus safer), so anything a small gang can do, a large gang can do faster, and can scare off attackers. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
245
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Posted - 2012.01.08 20:32:00 -
[42] - Quote
Incursions won't work as a straight copy obviously, but the mechanic can be used to rethink the whole sov system.
I was mainly referring to the constellation wide conflict over control of what is in essence a single system (staging system). With 1k pilots available and 20+ events happening in 5-7 systems, you'd need some serious organizational mojo to blob as is possible today.
We have tried all the various combination possible in spreading out fights within a single system over the years, and it always ends the same .. keep pouring in pilots until one side runs out of meat. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1152
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Posted - 2012.01.08 20:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Incursions won't work as a straight copy obviously, but the mechanic can be used to rethink the whole sov system.
I was mainly referring to the constellation wide conflict over control of what is in essence a single system (staging system). With 1k pilots available and 20+ events happening in 5-7 systems, you'd need some serious organizational mojo to blob as is possible today.
We have tried all the various combination possible in spreading out fights within a single system over the years, and it always ends the same .. keep pouring in pilots until one side runs out of meat.
That would be POS sov, with stations granting Constellation control.
Unless you do away with timers (hurting everyone too small to have a heavy 24hr presence), the attackers are likely to mass their attack on one target. A while later, the defense masses in the same spot. Pitched battles are how wars between remotely comparable opponents are fought and won (at least where there's infrastructure at stake). EVE is very Clausewitzian like that.
Raiding parties to destroy materiel only work in the real world because you can achieve total surprise, and blow everything up. But that's no fun for the defender who wakes up to his city in shambles. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
253
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:We have tried all the various combination possible in spreading out fights within a single system over the years, and it always ends the same .. keep pouring in pilots until one side runs out of meat.
Because if you win the fight and hold the field, the actual mechanics of how to grind sov are totally irrelevant. And numbers are a big part of winning fights, so... |
Alaric Faelen
Aquila Venatici Bringers of Death.
39
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Posted - 2012.01.11 03:45:00 -
[45] - Quote
Eve can be too big for it's own good sometimes. It's just spread out with a large amount of stuff to do. Hence, people are out there, but refuse to fight. They don't have to, really. If you see local blow up suddenly, you can simply go somewhere else and do the same thing unmolested. Or, alternatively you can often just switch efforts and find solitude too.
Eve's gameworld is so large with so much content, that there isn't much worth fighting over when you can just hop a couple gates over where local has been empty all day. Jump into a WH and find 20 dudes already there in battle cruisers? you just pop back out and scan down one of the other 2499 WH in the game.....
Too often I'll jump into low sec to do PI in a hauler- and the three in local beat feet before I uncloak at the gate! They aren't even cowards- just no reason to fight for a spot when there are literally hundreds more totally empty at any given time. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
260
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Posted - 2012.01.11 04:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:Too often I'll jump into low sec to do PI in a hauler- and the three in local beat feet before I uncloak at the gate! They aren't even cowards- just no reason to fight for a spot when there are literally hundreds more totally empty at any given time.
EVE is too big for US and AU TZ, too small for EU/RUS TZ. |
Constantinee
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
15
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Posted - 2012.01.11 07:41:00 -
[47] - Quote
last time i went to lowsec i was bridged on....thats my only issue there. Really wish titans could only bridge in 0.0.... Constantinee video archive. http://www.youtube.com/user/Constvids?feature=mhee
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March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
107
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Posted - 2012.01.11 12:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:" null-sec pvp sucks"
Funny thing is that one can remove the "PvP" and that statement would still be true!
Completely unbiased, fair and balanced personal opinion: Null PvP should be renamed to FCvFC as target calling, fleet make-up and arranging for a Titan-bridge/hot-drop are the deciding factors .. calling it PvP is like calling Uwe Boll's movies "art". don't see any blobs, titans and/or FCs on my killboard.... :/
well. some say "suicide killing miners in high-sec is a pvp"..... who knows? |
Galatica789
Autocannons Anonymous
8
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Posted - 2012.01.11 15:09:00 -
[49] - Quote
Bitches cant handle gate guns |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
263
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Posted - 2012.01.12 07:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
Galatica789 wrote:Bitches cant handle gate guns
Is that why you (Galatica) are in FW? |
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Giovanni Auditore
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
4
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Posted - 2012.01.12 10:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Solo PVP in the null is the best pvp in my opinion, if you can use the maps basic functions, and have a feel for how the Region works.. its the best, this is ofcourse assuming that the region your pvping in IS NOT your home ... |
Thea Siirian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:35:00 -
[52] - Quote
I know it has detractors, but I still love small - gang warfare in 0.0 in BC and below. All you have is your wits, your ships and your bookmarks. Traps can be used dynamically if you plan ahead just a bit, but they can also turn on you - the variety keeps it fun. If you're not finding 0.0 PVP to your liking you're either in the wrong place, with the wrong people or doing the wrong stuff. Or... PVP just isn't for you. I would agree the small gang is an endangered species in many places in EVE in general. |
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