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ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
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Posted - 2017.07.14 20:28:34 -
[1] - Quote
Can cloaks have a drain cap amount attribute, so that eventually cap runs out and decloaks? any cap mods regen/ bonuses are negated whilst cloak is activated so that people can just fill up on cap regen
wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1216
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Posted - 2017.07.14 20:42:10 -
[2] - Quote
Saddly, your thread is doomed to be locked and redirected to the several years old sticky at the top of the page. You should read and participate in that, though the usual trolls will wear you down in short order. Still, go there, new threads are pointless and silly.
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ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 20:44:56 -
[3] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Saddly, your thread is doomed to be locked and redirected to the several years old sticky at the top of the page. You should read and participate in that, though the usual trolls will wear you down in short order. Still, go there, new threads are pointless and silly.
with 496 pages It would only get lost.... |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
156
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 20:48:41 -
[4] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Saddly, your thread is doomed to be locked and redirected to the several years old sticky at the top of the page. You should read and participate in that, though the usual trolls will wear you down in short order. Still, go there, new threads are pointless and silly.
with 496 pages It would only get lost....
And rightly so. Your idea has been suggested about a billion times as a solution to something that isn't a problem.
Stop being a coward. If someone's in local with you, either move to a different system or get a response fleet ready and bait them.
The problem with AFK cloakers has never been the cloakers, it has always been the risk-averse cowards that won't even chance an encounter. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1216
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 20:51:43 -
[5] - Quote
The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
157
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 20:56:06 -
[6] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off.
So your solution to a pvp game is to avoid pvp? See my previous post about being a coward.
If you want space, be prepared to fight for it. Sheep or wolf, you choose which you are.
EDIT:
Start ratting in this for a while. When they drop on you... you counter-drop on them. Sure your ticks will suck, but you aren't sitting in a station, and as soon as they DO drop on you, the problem goes away and you can go back to your max-tick fit.
[Vexor Navy Issue, VNI Cynobait]
Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Explosive Hardener II
100MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II
Cynosural Field Generator I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Praetor II x5
Liquid Ozone x500 |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
3553
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 21:03:57 -
[7] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:All cloaking modules to have a new cap drain amount attribute, once cloak is activated, cap depletes and eventually runs out and decloaks? any cap regen/ bonus mods are negated whilst cloaked, so that people cant just fill up on cap regen mods to overcome this.
wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix? There is nothing to be fixed. AFK cloaking is working as intended. CCP intends for nullsec to have risk, and while they seem to be failing a bit at that with how safe ratting and mining has become there, they certainly aren't going to make nullsec more safe by removing cloaky camping as a tactic to harass your opponents.
I think the traditional advice for you is to "get gud", both in defending your space in nullsec, and in your ability to post suggestion in the forums in the proper place.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Revis Owen
The Conference Elite CODE.
547
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 21:25:23 -
[8] - Quote
What is the issue some people have with AFK cloakers? If they're AFK, they can't do anything to anyone.
Also, IB4L.
Agent of the New Order
http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1216
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 23:09:11 -
[9] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off. So your solution to a pvp game is to avoid pvp? See my previous post about being a coward. If you want space, be prepared to fight for it. Sheep or wolf, you choose which you are. EDIT: Start ratting in this for a while. When they drop on you... you counter-drop on them. Sure your ticks will suck, but you aren't sitting in a station, and as soon as they DO drop on you, the problem goes away and you can go back to your max-tick fit. [Vexor Navy Issue, VNI Cynobait] Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Explosive Hardener II 100MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II Cynosural Field Generator I Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Praetor II x5 Liquid Ozone x500
In the afk cloaker scenario, it is the cloaker that is hiding from pvp.
There are no options for hunting him, which is why he is able to go afk. When he comes, he might come alone, or he might cyno in friends. If you get a defense fleet ready, he won't come at all... and then you are just wasting everyone's time. Or, you can just leave the space, either by logging or moving systems.
Either way, the cloaker wins uncontested. The system is disrupted, it's value to those that would use it degraded, and no options to recoup that loss exist.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1216
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 23:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Revis Owen wrote:What is the issue some people have with AFK cloakers? If they're AFK, they can't do anything to anyone.
Also, IB4L.
So Clever!
Oh, wait... The people he's 'fighting' have to stay at peak readiness at all times with no recourse to mitigate the danger he represents, despite having moved into the ass end of nowhere, taken the system, set up defense fleets, etc...
Or they can just leave the system, either by logging or moving somewhere else.
Either way, the cloaker wins uncontested, so safe he can do it while afk. |
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Empire Raider
Spicy Onion Rings
3
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Posted - 2017.07.14 23:36:04 -
[11] - Quote
IB4 topic locked...
Yeah this thing about AFK cloakers has been posted over and over. If there's something this tells us is that CCP should do something about it, one way or another.
Personally I don't think forcing them out of cloak is the solution, sometimes people just have to go AFK and there's nothing wrong about it.
I don't think a perfect solution for this problem will ever exist, but they could start by the directional scanner. Being able to tell if there are cloaked ships around even if you remain oblivious to their hull type or exact position would be a great start. And if even that is too much to ask, make a specialized ship with that ability. This way cloaked ships can still prowl on solo targets but a fleet or a resident corporation with this specialized ship will be able to at least detect the threat. |
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 23:38:58 -
[12] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:There are no options for hunting him, which is why he is able to go afk. When he comes, he might come alone, or he might cyno in friends. If you get a defense fleet ready, he won't come at all... and then you are just wasting everyone's time. Or, you can just leave the space, either by logging or moving systems.
Either way, the cloaker wins uncontested. The system is disrupted, it's value to those that would use it degraded, and no options to recoup that loss exist.
This is one of the best assessments I've heard in a while.
I can't quite put my finger on specifics, but the logic behind the cloaker being unable to do anything to anyone seems off, to me. Then they call the people farming cowards for avoiding pvp, unlike the... noble cloaker, hiding in cloak from pvp? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3279
|
Posted - 2017.07.14 23:50:52 -
[13] - Quote
There's no consensus that AFK cloakers are a problem. Better start with establishing that before you start coming up with a solution.
That aside, I doubt we can expect Big Things from you if you weren't bright enough to find the sticky thread.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1274
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 01:53:32 -
[14] - Quote
Why is there a problem with a module that when activated you can't kill anyone and can't earn any ISK?
Only PvE-ers in sov null complain about cloaking, and if they were on comms and in a standing defense fleet when online it would be a non-issue. |
Empire Raider
Spicy Onion Rings
3
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 03:00:23 -
[15] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Why is there a problem with a module that when activated you can't kill anyone and can't earn any ISK?
Playing dumb wont earn you any points. You know very well why it's a problem. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
3085
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 06:58:01 -
[16] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off. No option to force interaction or a fight? Put ratting ships out and fit them properly and with a cyno and have a defense fleet ready, something that you have to have ready these days in any case because of all the Rorqs. If they don't bite, you can keep ratting, if they bite, you have your fight and they get dunked (ideally).
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3985
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 12:23:20 -
[17] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote: with 496 pages It would only get lost....
Your idea is on the first ******* page of that thread already.
This thread doesn't just deserved to be locked, it should be fed to the dogs!
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 13:09:10 -
[18] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:ImYourMom wrote: with 496 pages It would only get lost....
Your idea is on the first ******* page of that thread already. This thread doesn't just deserved to be locked, it should be fed to the dogs!
wow grow up and stop being such a drama queen, whats up with you.... |
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 13:10:17 -
[19] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off. No option to force interaction or a fight? Put ratting ships out and fit them properly and with a cyno and have a defense fleet ready, something that you have to have ready these days in any case because of all the Rorqs. If they don't bite, you can keep ratting, if they bite, you have your fight and they get dunked (ideally).
You know that they fit cynos, and cynos jump in caps or blops etc? You know that right? |
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 13:11:42 -
[20] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:There's no consensus that AFK cloakers are a problem. Better start with establishing that before you start coming up with a solution.
That aside, I doubt we can expect Big Things from you if you weren't bright enough to find the sticky thread.
Oh cmon with that stupid comment, honestly wtf... go play another game if you think that. 496 pages means theres a problem and even ccp states its a problem. it is a problem.
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ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 13:14:30 -
[21] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:ImYourMom wrote:All cloaking modules to have a new cap drain amount attribute, once cloak is activated, cap depletes and eventually runs out and decloaks? any cap regen/ bonus mods are negated whilst cloaked, so that people cant just fill up on cap regen mods to overcome this.
wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix? There is nothing to be fixed. AFK cloaking is working as intended. CCP intends for nullsec to have risk, and while they seem to be failing a bit at that with how safe ratting and mining has become there, they certainly aren't going to make nullsec more safe by removing cloaky camping as a tactic to harass your opponents. I think the traditional advice for you is to "get gud", both in defending your space in nullsec, and in your ability to post suggestions in the forums in the proper place.
Stop, please just stop right there. CCP even state they know it s a problem. The problem aint afk cloaking, its the fact they can cyno in caps etc. Sorry i disagree wholeheartedly with your comments, we clearly and MANY others dont either.... Oh and someone who hides in highsec, and does lame ganking really hasnt got a clue what hes talking about.
Why dont you come do some proper pvp? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3279
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 13:28:46 -
[22] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:There's no consensus that AFK cloakers are a problem. Better start with establishing that before you start coming up with a solution.
That aside, I doubt we can expect Big Things from you if you weren't bright enough to find the sticky thread. Oh cmon with that stupid comment, honestly wtf... go play another game if you think that. 496 pages means theres a problem and even ccp states its a problem. it is a problem.
Uh, when have CCP ever said that?
486 pages of a small handful of mewling candyasses who refuse to quit crying. HTFU.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1216
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 14:28:52 -
[23] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off. No option to force interaction or a fight? Put ratting ships out and fit them properly and with a cyno and have a defense fleet ready, something that you have to have ready these days in any case because of all the Rorqs. If they don't bite, you can keep ratting, if they bite, you have your fight and they get dunked (ideally).
How exactly does that force any sort of non-consensual action on the cloaker?
You can't make him attack. You can't make him run. You can't make him do anything he does not want to do.
All you can do is raise his barrier of entry to initiate an attack--- wasting everyone's time. Or you can leave. Either way, he won uncontested. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
3554
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 14:40:43 -
[24] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Stop, please just stop right there. CCP even state they know it s a problem. The problem aint afk cloaking, its the fact they can cyno in caps etc. Sorry i disagree wholeheartedly with your comments, we clearly and MANY others dont either....
Sigh. Everyone acknowledges that campy cloaking is not ideal, but every single time when CCP discusses it, they point out that the problem that nullsec is suppose to be dangerous and they are not happy with the intel, and thus safety afforded by local and view cloaky camping as a counter to that.
Do you really think, that if it was as simple as making cloaks turn off after some time, CCP might have gotten around to fixing it sometime in the last decade? Just kept slipping their mind, huh? If you are going with that, you must be more simple than your name would leave one to believe.
You are suppose to be at risk. You are not suppose to be able to 100% secure your space. It's all working as intended. Feel free to continue to impotently whine on these forums, but there is not going to be a fix for cloaky camping that is so one-side and carebear friendly as to make nullsec PvE near invulnerable. A fix, if and when it ever comes, will put some risk into your nullsec grinding, not just make the "bad people" who scare you go away, and that is something this game desperately needs at this point.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
|
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
3086
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 14:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off. No option to force interaction or a fight? Put ratting ships out and fit them properly and with a cyno and have a defense fleet ready, something that you have to have ready these days in any case because of all the Rorqs. If they don't bite, you can keep ratting, if they bite, you have your fight and they get dunked (ideally). You know that they fit cynos, and cynos jump in caps or blops etc? You know that right? I am well aware. I live in Null sec and I (used to) bait hunters regularly. It does not matter what they bring if you know it beforehand. That may require a sacrifice or two of your own to find out, it may only require a look at their killboard. It obviously also means that you need to know your surroundings and at least know from how far away BLOPS/caps can reach you or if there is a WH in the area with known droppers. Furthermore, not every cloaky camper has cynos, some just sit in your system to psychologically prevent you from doing something or make your defense fleets feel bored. Some cloaky campers are also completely useless because they sit somewhere in a ship that cannot warp cloaked, in other words, you know when they do something because you see them coming.
I have done some extensive note taking on campers/hunters in my ratting areas and can tell with a great level of confidence what someone is going to do. This also helps a log against cloaky campers. Obviously, having competent neighbors who check signature for wormholes, roll them, or sacrifice themselves to campers so that you can find out what's going on helps a lot.
@SurrenderMonkey It got mentioned again last Fanfest in one of the panels and (recollection from memory) Fozzy's team admitted that the camping in itself is not a problem but the psychological barrier it creates is problematic, and that they are thinking about how to tackle this.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1290
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 16:21:01 -
[26] - Quote
-1 - there is no problem to be solved, that is why CCP has done nothing about it in the 7 years I have been in this game.
Going with my standard here, you cannot see them, you cannot scan them, how do you know the player controlling that ship is AFK?
ImYourMom wrote:wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix? Been in EvE since 2010 and people have been complaining about AFK cloakers since I started. Yes you are right cap use would be simple to do, and over the over the years it has been suggested many times. Other people have suggested timers of one sort or another, heat build up in the module from use ultimately leading to failure due to overheating. Changing the probes back to a time when you could scan cloaked ships or adding a new type of probe that can only detect cloaked ships. And yet others have gone with a module or probes that can scan for heat with the logic being that any ship and it's systems would create heat and that heat could be easily detected against the cold backdrop of empty space. Still others have suggested magnetic anomaly detection systems like those used to hunt submarines in real life. So let us look at this from a different perspective. Several of these would be extremely simple to implement (cap and heat specifically). People have been suggesting them for all my time in the game. Any or all of them would control this AFK cloaking scourge you speak of. Despite how easy many of these would be to implement CCP has chosen NOT to do any of them. Simple elementary level logic dictates that there is only one answer here.
CCP DOES not consider AFK cloaking to be a problem they need to solve. Which gets me back to where I started -1 to your idea it simply is not needed. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1274
|
Posted - 2017.07.15 17:59:02 -
[27] - Quote
Empire Raider wrote:Playing dumb wont earn you any points. You know very well why it's a problem.
I actually don't. I'm in a fleet and on comms all the time I'm outside of HS. I always have a point fit to my PvE ships, so if I'm tackled I just lock the guy down, ask for help and 15 seconds later the fleet shows up and gets a kill.
Standard doctrine for mining ships includes a point, yes you lose some yield, but you're not in HS. Fit your ships to defend yourself. |
Cindy the Sewer
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2017.07.16 18:06:41 -
[28] - Quote
Congrats, you have submiited an idea that has been submitted 999,999 times before and so we hit the millionth time mark!
btw....
YOU: Dear CCP, i have a great anti-camper idea !
CCP: Whatever it is the answer is NO !
Searing destruction of your viewpoint is incoming and no you won't win the discussion or even walk away with anything resembling a win, so bail out early or suffer repeated embarrassments. You have been warned.
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
165
|
Posted - 2017.07.16 18:24:23 -
[29] - Quote
How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.
You are very right, you can't force the cloaker to try and engage you. Just means you need to be smarter.
While they're camping you, they aren't camping someone else. Consider their motivations:
1) Killing ships 2) Killing ships 3) Killing ships
They cloaky camp space because they want someone to be overconfident, fit a max tick ratting ship, and start making isk. Then they drop in, kill it, and get their jollies.
How much fun are they going to have when every time they drop on something, they get counter-dropped? How much fun are they going to have when they're the ones losing their gank-fit ships to a conventional pvp fleet?
After the first couple drops, they're going to realize you're just ratting in bait ships, and that you have a response fleet ready. They will leave, because there are easier systems with stupid fucks in them that can't seem to figure this little bit out. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3985
|
Posted - 2017.07.16 23:01:30 -
[30] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.
Weekend. And these are no longer the proper forums. Isd's may be more focused on the discord forums.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1216
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 03:26:49 -
[31] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.
You are very right, you can't force the cloaker to try and engage you. Just means you need to be smarter.
While they're camping you, they aren't camping someone else. Consider their motivations:
1) Killing ships 2) Killing ships 3) Killing ships
They cloaky camp space because they want someone to be overconfident, fit a max tick ratting ship, and start making isk. Then they drop in, kill it, and get their jollies.
How much fun are they going to have when every time they drop on something, they get counter-dropped? How much fun are they going to have when they're the ones losing their gank-fit ships to a conventional pvp fleet?
After the first couple drops, they're going to realize you're just ratting in bait ships, and that you have a response fleet ready. They will leave, because there are easier systems with stupid fucks in them that can't seem to figure this little bit out.
You are making assumptions as to their motives. Often, Killing Ships is secondary. Perhaps they want to guage how easy it would be to take the system. perhaps they simply want to degrade the value of the system.
The whole point of the AFK camp is that you can't outsmart it--- they aren't even at the keyboard most of the time, so there's nothing to outsmart unless you think it's totally fair that sneaking in one alt a week ago then pressing the cloak button is equal effort to forcing everyone to stay at maximum readiness at all times until he decides to attack.
And if he does not? Oh well, time and effort wasted preparing for nothing, he wins. Or you can move out and leave the space to him uncontested. He wins again.
He is able to force and extremely assymetical form of warfare on you, with no way to counter it but fly stupid. For some, that's acceptable, but not everyone is stupid. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6749
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 04:21:14 -
[32] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:All cloaking modules to have a new cap drain amount attribute, once cloak is activated, cap depletes and eventually runs out and decloaks? any cap regen/ bonus mods are negated whilst cloaked, so that people cant just fill up on cap regen mods to overcome this.
wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix?
You KNOW there is a dedicated thread for this and you post like a completely blinkered m0r0n?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6749
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 04:23:54 -
[33] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:There's no consensus that AFK cloakers are a problem. Better start with establishing that before you start coming up with a solution.
That aside, I doubt we can expect Big Things from you if you weren't bright enough to find the sticky thread.
Oh he saw the sticky thread, even has some posts there. This person is really, really, really stupid. That's all.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 09:00:59 -
[34] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:ImYourMom wrote:All cloaking modules to have a new cap drain amount attribute, once cloak is activated, cap depletes and eventually runs out and decloaks? any cap regen/ bonus mods are negated whilst cloaked, so that people cant just fill up on cap regen mods to overcome this.
wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix? You KNOW there is a dedicated thread for this and you post like a completely blinkered m0r0n?
Oh god look we have another one... yes and ive posted there afterwards, and i cant close threads smart ass... but you probably was TOO stupid to go look. Yet another eve troll who has nothing better to do, but to vent is child anger issues on forums. whats new. Oh its a Goon too #expected |
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 09:03:32 -
[35] - Quote
Cindy the Sewer wrote:Congrats, you have submiited an idea that has been submitted 999,999 times before and so we hit the millionth time mark!
btw....
YOU: Dear CCP, i have a great anti-camper idea !
CCP: Whatever it is the answer is NO !
Can you show me links to my particular idea please? I mean i could read every post in a 496 page thread, but you know I have a life, unlike yourself obviously, and really really dont have the time because RL > Eve. Oh i know, that's crazy right. See you didnt post here to be helpful, what you did was post to try give yourself some troll epeen. Sad really that people need to do that to gain attention but meh..
Oh and for the record, no i dont agree with your views |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
3086
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 12:43:47 -
[36] - Quote
And you created another redundant thread for the topic that has its own sticky. You should have posted your redundant stuff there regardless if it has been posted there already or not. This is, after all, precisely the point of this sticky: collect all the "original" ideas and solutions to AFK cloaking from people who are too lazy to search for already existing ideas and solutions and those who want to post their stuff anyways. Or you could have posted in the new forum, in order to take away the redundancy justification because it's a "fresh start".
That aside, you don't have to read through all the 500 pages. If you know how to use Google, you can make google/duckduckgo/bing/yahoo/etc do the work for you. Like this., which leads to several suggestions involving capacitor drawbacks for cloaking, even old collection topics for your "original" idea. This search took me 2 minutes, by the way.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
kingduckling
The pie is a lie
3
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 13:37:28 -
[37] - Quote
OP you have failed to state what exactly is the problem with the Cloacking modules? Is it all the cloacking modules? or maybe just the covops? how about combat recon ships?
Please articulate your reasoning. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3985
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 16:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Cindy the Sewer wrote:Congrats, you have submiited an idea that has been submitted 999,999 times before and so we hit the millionth time mark!
btw....
YOU: Dear CCP, i have a great anti-camper idea !
CCP: Whatever it is the answer is NO ! Can you show me links to my particular idea please? I mean i could read every post in a 496 page thread, but you know I have a life, unlike yourself obviously, and really really dont have the time because RL > Eve. Oh i know, that's crazy right. See you didnt post here to be helpful, what you did was post to try give yourself some troll epeen. Sad really that people need to do that to gain attention but meh.. Oh and for the record, no i dont agree with your views
Its linked in the first post in that thread. It really is. As a courtesy to forum users please don't post **** like this.
If you don't have the time for a five minute search then how do you have time to keep posting ****** replies in this ****** thread?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 16:30:10 -
[39] - Quote
If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.
But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3985
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 17:11:02 -
[40] - Quote
Scialt wrote:If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.
But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell.
Go read the sticky and then slap yourself.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6750
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 19:57:38 -
[41] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You are making assumptions as to their motives. Often, Killing Ships is secondary. Perhaps they want to guage how easy it would be to take the system. perhaps they simply want to degrade the value of the system.
And pray tell...how are they going to make this determination IF THEY ARE AFK? If there is nobody there they can't gather much intel now can they.
If they want to degrade the value of the system they have to stop you from utilizing that system. That can be countered. Ratting in a group, mining in a group. Having both going on at the same time so one group can support the other.
Quote:The whole point of the AFK camp is that you can't outsmart it--- they aren't even at the keyboard most of the time, so there's nothing to outsmart unless you think it's totally fair that sneaking in one alt a week ago then pressing the cloak button is equal effort to forcing everyone to stay at maximum readiness at all times until he decides to attack.
If they aren't at the keyboard then what is the problem? Oh right, you can't tell and that level of uncertainty means you have absolutely zero recourse. None at all. You can't rat in a group and switch up your fit to be more pvp combat effective. Nope, in fact the fitting window no longer works once an AFK camper is in system.
Quote:And if he does not? Oh well, time and effort wasted preparing for nothing, he wins. Or you can move out and leave the space to him uncontested. He wins again.
Or you could rat in a group in fleet.
Quote:He is able to force and extremely assymetical form of warfare on you, with no way to counter it but fly stupid. For some, that's acceptable, but not everyone is stupid.
How is flying in a fleet of PvP ships and ratting stupid if you have an AFK cloaker there? If you own an entire region how is moving systems stupid? It is unlikely they are going to take just one system...and hey, if they do fantastic now I can get in a fleet and have a fight.
The real problem here is, Mike, you simply want to rat as if you were playing on Sisi...frankly you should just rat there.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6750
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 20:20:09 -
[42] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Cindy the Sewer wrote:Congrats, you have submiited an idea that has been submitted 999,999 times before and so we hit the millionth time mark!
btw....
YOU: Dear CCP, i have a great anti-camper idea !
CCP: Whatever it is the answer is NO ! Can you show me links to my particular idea please? I mean i could read every post in a 496 page thread, but you know I have a life, unlike yourself obviously, and really really dont have the time because RL > Eve. Oh i know, that's crazy right. See you didnt post here to be helpful, what you did was post to try give yourself some troll epeen. Sad really that people need to do that to gain attention but meh.. Oh and for the record, no i dont agree with your views
Oh for FFS...you do know about this thing called google right?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=396348&find=unread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1682517#post1682517 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3359691#post3359691
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 20:48:13 -
[43] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Scialt wrote:If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.
But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell. Go read the sticky and then slap yourself.
In a redundant thread, I don't see a problem posting the redundant solution that I prefer.
some other redundant answers that get posted to redundant OP's 'all the time:
"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose." "Minerals you mine yourself are not free." ".01 isk station traders are mostly not bots." "Get gud."
So... yeah, there should be an afk logoff mechanism. Has that been posted before? Yep. Is it still the best answer to AFK... anything (mining/cloaked camping/whatever).... yep.
I didn't raise the topic. But it is still the best answer in my opinion.
|
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
168
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 21:15:04 -
[44] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Old Pervert wrote:How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.
You are very right, you can't force the cloaker to try and engage you. Just means you need to be smarter.
While they're camping you, they aren't camping someone else. Consider their motivations:
1) Killing ships 2) Killing ships 3) Killing ships
They cloaky camp space because they want someone to be overconfident, fit a max tick ratting ship, and start making isk. Then they drop in, kill it, and get their jollies.
How much fun are they going to have when every time they drop on something, they get counter-dropped? How much fun are they going to have when they're the ones losing their gank-fit ships to a conventional pvp fleet?
After the first couple drops, they're going to realize you're just ratting in bait ships, and that you have a response fleet ready. They will leave, because there are easier systems with stupid fucks in them that can't seem to figure this little bit out. You are making assumptions as to their motives. Often, Killing Ships is secondary. Perhaps they want to guage how easy it would be to take the system. perhaps they simply want to degrade the value of the system. The whole point of the AFK camp is that you can't outsmart it--- they aren't even at the keyboard most of the time, so there's nothing to outsmart unless you think it's totally fair that sneaking in one alt a week ago then pressing the cloak button is equal effort to forcing everyone to stay at maximum readiness at all times until he decides to attack. And if he does not? Oh well, time and effort wasted preparing for nothing, he wins. Or you can move out and leave the space to him uncontested. He wins again. He is able to force and extremely assymetical form of warfare on you, with no way to counter it but fly stupid. For some, that's acceptable, but not everyone is stupid.
You can't outsmart an AFK camp? Really? My alliance is doing that right now.
My home system is being "camped" now. We ignore them, save for the cynos on our pvp-fitted ratting ships. They tried dropping on us a few times, they have lost billions, we've lost a single frigate. Haven't had a chance to even fight these guys yet personally, they're far too risk-averse to actually take a fight whenever I'm online. Maybe it's because they know we're ready and waiting for them with enough of a fleet to mop them up 3 times over, even before escalations.
In short, the simple solution is to kill the campers. Asymmetric warfare only works when you let them make it asymmetric. Don't let them dictate the terms of the engagements in your house. It's yours. Prove it or lose it. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1216
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 02:31:48 -
[45] - Quote
So go ahead, kill the campers.
You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.
So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6750
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 04:01:02 -
[46] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:So go ahead, kill the campers.
You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.
So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value.
Find your backbone. Get in a fleet with PvP fit ships, and rat away, mine away. Both ideally so each fleet can come to the aid of the other. Get on voice comms. Look at killboards when are they active. Look at the map and see if there is a system with people in it and go check it out. If anyone has alts bring logi, have them logged in with additional support.
For the love of God some crying to CCP to fix your problems. You are an adult...well at least technically...so act like it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
19001
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 07:40:47 -
[47] - Quote
Remove local and you remove the problem. |
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 09:24:04 -
[48] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:So go ahead, kill the campers.
You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.
So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value. Find your backbone. Get in a fleet with PvP fit ships, and rat away, mine away. Both ideally so each fleet can come to the aid of the other. Get on voice comms. Look at killboards when are they active. Look at the map and see if there is a system with people in it and go check it out. If anyone has alts bring logi, have them logged in with additional support. For the love of God some crying to CCP to fix your problems. You are an adult...well at least technically...so act like it.
Yeah i mean i guess when its you guys (and i mean goons) cloaking camping (its funny how you keep disputing the problem isnt it), which you do a lot, its ok right? I mean everyone can fight against 50 caps that jump in through cynos right? I mean you fought of all the alliances that kicked your ass in WWB right? Oh wait no you didnt.
Stpo being ridiculous. The problem is, if we want to get down to it, is the ability to cyno in caps/sub caps instantly. Thats the problem for people. When you can cyno in 100,200 + ships thats the problem, not being prepared to get in a fleet.
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1292
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 12:58:38 -
[49] - Quote
Scialt wrote:I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly. Emergency cyno alts. Dodging a war dec. Watching a worm hole entrance / exit. Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole. And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 15:00:58 -
[50] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly. Emergency cyno alts. Dodging a war dec. Watching a worm hole entrance / exit. Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole. And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children.
All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes.
If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout.
If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there?
As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well.
I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. |
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3986
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 15:02:34 -
[51] - Quote
No Scialt. It's a trash option. It belongs in the sticky with the other trash.
All a null bear has to do is wait twenty minutes and know that the cloaker is active or not. Not good enough. You shouldn't know whether hes there or not by just waiting around a bit. Yeesh!
Best option has, and always will be, remove local.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3986
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 15:05:02 -
[52] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Why waste system resources on a player who's not there? .
Was wondering when this bullshit would pop up again. Yet another null bear showing their ignorance.
I would just rather play an mmo where people understand reward comes from risk and wouldn't whine to the forums when a problem is perfectly solvable in game.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
148
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 15:51:53 -
[53] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Old Pervert wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off. So your solution to a pvp game is to avoid pvp? See my previous post about being a coward. If you want space, be prepared to fight for it. Sheep or wolf, you choose which you are. EDIT: Start ratting in this for a while. When they drop on you... you counter-drop on them. Sure your ticks will suck, but you aren't sitting in a station, and as soon as they DO drop on you, the problem goes away and you can go back to your max-tick fit. [Vexor Navy Issue, VNI Cynobait] Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Explosive Hardener II 100MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II Cynosural Field Generator I Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Praetor II x5 Liquid Ozone x500 In the afk cloaker scenario, it is the cloaker that is hiding from pvp. There are no options for hunting him, which is why he is able to go afk. When he comes, he might come alone, or he might cyno in friends. If you get a defense fleet ready, he won't come at all... and then you are just wasting everyone's time. Or, you can just leave the space, either by logging or moving systems. Either way, the cloaker wins uncontested. The system is disrupted, it's value to those that would use it degraded, and no options to recoup that loss exist.
Damn... I hate to say this, Mike, but you are a twit.
You just responded to a highly effecitve means of hunting them with some lame and unsupported comment that there is no way of hunting them... I'd suggest you develop sufficient game knowledge to understand ship fittings and how they are meant to be used before commenting on game balance here.
Okay, so yes you can't shoot a cloaked ship unless you happen upon their exact location. However, hunting is a skill which requires you to understand your opponent, and in this case it means understanding why the cloaky camper is there... Simply put, they are looking for suitable targets. The reason why the VNI fit posted above works? Because it looks like a suitable target, but, actually isn't. With the VNI fit posted above there is no warning, and no defence fleet in system. Nothing to warn them until you light the cyno and spring your trap. You counter the cloaked camper by baiting them into an engagement, and coutnering their cyno pack with a cyno of your own. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
169
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 16:20:02 -
[54] - Quote
I will also say that you are not entitled to your space. You are not entitled to fly in it, stage in it, mine in it, or rat in it.
Unless, of course, you're prepared to fight for it. You get what you take, and you give what gets taken from you.
Yes, by definition those engaging in asymmetric warfare will wait until the balance is in their favour. That's fine. If you're letting the balance tip in their favour, your stupidity is what cost you that fight.
Eve is an MMO. That means you fly with your friends. If you don't have the ability to cyno in reinforcements, rat together. I can promise that a blops fleet isn't going to try and drop on 10 machs, vindis, or rattlesnakes. Unless they're dumb, in which case, free kills for you. Just make sure that everyone has a long and short point to keep them from trying to bug out when things inevitably go bad for them.
If you can't properly tank your ship anymore because you had to fight it for an actual fight, have someone fly logistics. They'll still get ticks, you'll get ticks. The only person not getting ticks is the "afk" dude who gets to sit alone by himself wishing that he was having fun. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6751
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 17:17:30 -
[55] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:So go ahead, kill the campers.
You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.
So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value. Find your backbone. Get in a fleet with PvP fit ships, and rat away, mine away. Both ideally so each fleet can come to the aid of the other. Get on voice comms. Look at killboards when are they active. Look at the map and see if there is a system with people in it and go check it out. If anyone has alts bring logi, have them logged in with additional support. For the love of God some crying to CCP to fix your problems. You are an adult...well at least technically...so act like it. Yeah i mean i guess when its you guys (and i mean goons) cloaking camping (its funny how you keep disputing the problem isnt it), which you do a lot, its ok right? I mean everyone can fight against 50 caps that jump in through cynos right? I mean you fought of all the alliances that kicked your ass in WWB right? Oh wait no you didnt. Stpo being ridiculous. The problem is, if we want to get down to it, is the ability to cyno in caps/sub caps instantly. Thats the problem for people. When you can cyno in 100,200 + ships thats the problem, not being prepared to get in a fleet.
There are always cloaky campers in many of our systems. There are people coming through in cloaks all the time as well. But it is rare to see a Goon here crying about it. Deal with it. Stop asking CCP to solve your problems when you have the ability to solve them yourself.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6751
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 17:19:30 -
[56] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly. Emergency cyno alts. Dodging a war dec. Watching a worm hole entrance / exit. Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole. And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children. All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes. If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout. If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there? As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well. I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way.
And I can set up something to do it for me. As it does not allow me to acquire any advantage other than staying logged in, it is not in violation of the EULA.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3283
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 17:46:25 -
[57] - Quote
Every now and then I'll see one of my guys crying in Slack or corp chat about a cloaky camper.
It's always, always that guy who hasn't shown up for a CTA in his entire life, and thinks pings exist for the sole purpose of saving his ass when his rorq gets tackled.
There is, undoubtedly, a certain type of player who struggles with AFK cloakers, and it is really hard to spare a care for their self-made problem.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3986
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 19:21:27 -
[58] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:There is, undoubtedly, a certain type of player who struggles with AFK cloakers, and it is really hard to spare a care for their self-made problem.
^^^ Htfu or gtfo.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 20:44:33 -
[59] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly. Emergency cyno alts. Dodging a war dec. Watching a worm hole entrance / exit. Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole. And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children. All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes. If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout. If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there? As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well. I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. And I can set up something to do it for me. As it does not allow me to acquire any advantage other than staying logged in, it is not in violation of the EULA.
I could be wrong but I had always thought any botting was a violation of the EULA "under any circumstances."
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6753
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 21:35:58 -
[60] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
I could be wrong but I had always thought any botting was a violation of the EULA "under any circumstances."
You are incorrect. Here is the relevant portion,
Quote:You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.
By simply being logged in I do not acquire any items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at all, let alone at an accelerated rate relative to ordinary game play.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1274
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 22:45:45 -
[61] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:You can't outsmart an AFK camp? Really? My alliance is doing that right now.
My home system is being "camped" now. We ignore them, save for the cynos on our pvp-fitted ratting ships. They tried dropping on us a few times, they have lost billions, we've lost a single frigate. Haven't had a chance to even fight these guys yet personally, they're far too risk-averse to actually take a fight whenever I'm online. Maybe it's because they know we're ready and waiting for them with enough of a fleet to mop them up 3 times over, even before escalations.
In short, the simple solution is to kill the campers. Asymmetric warfare only works when you let them make it asymmetric. Don't let them dictate the terms of the engagements in your house. It's yours. Prove it or lose it.
When did they change it so that people in NPC corps can join alliances? |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1292
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 15:06:13 -
[62] - Quote
Scialt wrote:All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes. First off I can watch a character and what is going on around them WITHOUT having to interact with that client. However that is not relevant because this comment clearly shows that you have missed the point. Why do I have to increase my efforts simply because you want to be safer in an area of space that is not supposed to be safe to start with. Why do I have to increase my efforts when you cannot or will not put forth the effort to simply move to another system to get away from me?
Scialt wrote:If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout. How about that trip to relieve oneself, or do you propose the we urinate or defecate into a bottle or pan we keep at our computers simply so we can be there to deal with your auto log off idea? And what about that phone call, you know that one from your mom, sister whatever that keeps you away from the computer listening to all the latest family gossip or other useless crap just long enough to get booted by the log off timer? And how about that annoying person that knocks on your door? No I do not care that twe have to deal with these things in those other games, we know that when we start playing them. EvE on the other hand has never had an auto log off "feature" so this would represent a major change.
I guess the most important question here is simply this. Interact to cancel the auto log off or move to another system. Both require about the same amount of effort, as one that is cloaky camping your system and I am active at the keyboard why do I have to deal with this annoying log off timer crap when you can simply move to another system?
Scialt wrote:If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there? Here we go with the tired old crap of most games do xxxxx, well EvE is not like "most" games and you better get used to that fact . CCP does not do things like "most " games and no auto log off is one of those things they do differently. CCP does many things that do not make sense, however considering how disruptive delays, lag and TiDi can be to those who play the game I can assure you that auto log off would be a thing in this game IF CCP was convinced that it would actually help eliminate those issues, since we have never had and currently do not have auto log off one can only surmise that CCP does not consider AFK players to be enough of a drain on system resources to do anything about it. |
zitellona
No Risk No ISK
2
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 15:33:55 -
[63] - Quote
Empire Raider wrote:IB4 topic locked...
Yeah this thing about AFK cloakers has been posted over and over. If there's something this tells us is that CCP should do something about it, one way or another.
Personally I don't think forcing them out of cloak is the solution, sometimes people just have to go AFK and there's nothing wrong about it.
I don't think a perfect solution for this problem will ever exist, but they could start by the directional scanner. Being able to tell if there are cloaked ships around even if you remain oblivious to their hull type or exact position would be a great start. And if even that is too much to ask, make a specialized ship with that ability. This way cloaked ships can still prowl on solo targets but a fleet or a resident corporation with this specialized ship will be able to at least detect the threat.
I believe that using the directional scanner should give away the position of the ship that is running the scan. Just like with anomalies, there should be a red circle in the direction of the scanning ship for 1 minute. If there are enough people in the system, you may be able to triangulate the position of the cloaked ship. Once the position is roughly known, you can put special passive probes that listen for incoming scans. If the cloaker does a scan, the probes triangulate his position and give a warp in point.
Any active signal emitting from the ship should be vulnerable to being scanned by the passive probes. I'd classify these activities as sending out active signals: - sending messages into a chat - changing position of probes (the ship has to send an active signal to probes to tell them where to scan and this signal will reach both probes and enemy ships) - starting a scan with probes - using the directional scanner - sending isk - making or accepting contracts etc |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
191
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 15:50:48 -
[64] - Quote
"Why do I have to increase my efforts simply because you want to be safer in an area of space that is not supposed to be safe to start with."
I don't really care about the safety... I prefer to actually play a MMO with other actual PEOPLE rather than an empty chair. I'm fine with you dropping on me. I enjoy the risk of EVE. I just want the other characters to be PRESENT. I don't think that's a big ask.
"Why do I have to increase my efforts when you cannot or will not put forth the effort to simply move to another system to get away from me?"
What effort? I just want you to be present. Heck, ideally activity in ANY eve window open would satisfy the activity for all. I don't care what you do... I just want to play a game with other players. Not your empty chair. I'm good with both evading droppers and baiting them... but it's freaking annoying to try to do that when there isn't an actual person on the other side.
"How about that trip to relieve oneself, or do you propose the we urinate or defecate into a bottle or pan we keep at our computers simply so we can be there to deal with your auto log off idea?"
First of all... if you take 20 minutes to do your business in the bathroom... you've got other issues. Second... who cares if you get logged off? You just log back in when you come back and cloak up. You weren't going to be able to do anything until you come back from your dump anyway.
"And what about that phone call, you know that one from your mom, sister whatever that keeps you away from the computer listening to all the latest family gossip or other useless crap just long enough to get booted by the log off timer?"
You log back in when you're done. Again... what's the big deal?
"EvE on the other hand has never had an auto log off "feature" so this would represent a major change."
Actually... it current has an automatic logoff. It's called "amount of time until downtime". Our maximum inactive time is 23 hours and change. What I'm suggesting is lowering that maximum time.
"I guess the most important question here is simply this. Interact to cancel the auto log off or move to another system. Both require about the same amount of effort, as one that is cloaky camping your system and I am active at the keyboard why do I have to deal with this annoying log off timer crap when you can simply move to another system?"
I'd say the most important question is if a MMO should ensure that the other logged in players are actually people you can interact with in the game... or if it's okay with having one side attempt to interact with an empty chair.... which is not exactly interesting game play.
"Here we go with the tired old crap of most games do xxxxx, well EvE is not like "most" games and you better get used to that fact . CCP does not do things like "most " games and no auto log off is one of those things they do differently. "
So... it's a good idea because CCP has always done it that way? That's the argument?
Look... multiplayer games exist in order to allow players to engage in playing with other players. I WANT you to drop on me when I'm ratting. I want you to try to catch me in a trap. I enjoy the feeling I get from escaping or baiting you. And the fact I might not escape adds excitement to my game play. But for that to happen... you have to be PRESENT.
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6754
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 19:00:14 -
[65] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
"Why do I have to increase my efforts simply because you want to be safer in an area of space that is not supposed to be safe to start with."
I don't really care about the safety... I prefer to actually play a MMO with other actual PEOPLE rather than an empty chair. I'm fine with you dropping on me. I enjoy the risk of EVE. I just want the other characters to be PRESENT. I don't think that's a big ask.
"Why do I have to increase my efforts when you cannot or will not put forth the effort to simply move to another system to get away from me?"
What effort? I just want you to be present. Heck, ideally activity in ANY eve window open would satisfy the activity for all. I don't care what you do... I just want to play a game with other players. Not your empty chair. I'm good with both evading droppers and baiting them... but it's freaking annoying to try to do that when there isn't an actual person on the other side.
[snip]
How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?
As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.
And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
192
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 20:44:31 -
[66] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?
As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.
And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.
Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.
I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.
As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.
Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.
And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6754
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 21:12:45 -
[67] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?
As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.
And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not.
So your solution is to log off those chairs that are not empty?
Here is a test I use when discussing game play issues: If you adversely impact those not causing the problem you are trying to address your suggested fix is a bad one.
I suggest your solution is a bad one as it will logoff "chairs that are not empty."
And you know...you can always use the sticky thread like you are supposed too.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1274
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 21:42:29 -
[68] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.
Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.
I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.
As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.
Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.
And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions.
So my character that does nothing but exploration in deep nullsec/WHs and hasn't docked in three months can't log in and just chat with corpmates without being disconnected every 20 minutes? |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6755
|
Posted - 2017.07.19 22:40:52 -
[69] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Scialt wrote:Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.
Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.
I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.
As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.
Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.
And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions. So my character that does nothing but exploration in deep nullsec/WHs and hasn't docked in three months can't log in and just chat with corpmates without being disconnected every 20 minutes?
I believe that chatting via the client is allowed...chatting say via Slack, Trillian, or some other medium while logged in and periodically glancing at your screen for whatever reason is forbidden and you'll be logged off. Just be glad you aren't banned for such corrosive behavior! [/sarcasm]
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
193
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 13:51:35 -
[70] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?
As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.
And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. So your solution is to log off those chairs that are not empty? Here is a test I use when discussing game play issues: If you adversely impact those not causing the problem you are trying to address your suggested fix is a bad one. I suggest your solution is a bad one as it will logoff "chairs that are not empty." And you know...you can always use the sticky thread like you are supposed too.
No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Your basic idea is this.
You have multiple sessions up. You see the flashing "You are afk and will be logged off in two minutes due to inactivity" message. You hear an audible clue that indicates one of your sessions is about to be logged off. You're still going to do nothing let the session be logged off... and whine about it?
If that's the case... the player's brain being empty is just as much a problem as the chair being empty. They were being told that a session was about to be logged and chose not to do anything. Either that or they didn't notice... which is effectively the SAME as the chair being empty. That session had no human mind doing anything with it or even watching it. It's an empty chair either way.
Why on earth are you so set on being able to stay logged in on an account you are not playing, are not looking and are not even listening for audible alerts from? That session is an empty chair. Log it to use it when you want to... you know... USE IT.
There's no adverse impact. At all. You can still log into an account when you need to use it. And if you're not using it... there's no need to keep it logged in. Nothing is preventing you from using as many accounts as you like... as long as you USE THEM. Your definition of being adversely impacted is incredibly petty.
And if you want to whine about the sticky thread... feel free to reply to me there. I'm responding to your comments. My response is going to go where the comments are made. If you me to quit responding to you here... don't post here. Or quit moaning about the sticky thread if you aren't willing to post your responses there.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
193
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 13:55:25 -
[71] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Scialt wrote:Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.
Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.
I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.
As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.
Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.
And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions. So my character that does nothing but exploration in deep nullsec/WHs and hasn't docked in three months can't log in and just chat with corpmates without being disconnected every 20 minutes?
Chatting is activity.
Clicking on the screen without actually doing anything is activity.
Moving your mouse while the window is active is activity.
Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.
If you aren't actually going to interact with the game client and just want to chat with corpmates in slack or discord or TS... why log into the game? You aren't playing it.
If you're messing with skill queues, using chat windows or doing literally ANYTHING that requires the client to be open... you're active.
This is pretty common in how MMO's work so you don't see a thousand "statues" in the game. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1292
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 14:53:32 -
[72] - Quote
Scialt wrote:No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Must be nice to live such a simple life in EvE that running afoul of an auto log off timer will never be an issue, unfortunately that is not the so for all of us.
One last go at getting you to understand. On another character I am a logi pilot for a low sec corp besides tracking my own fleet and their need for reps I have other duties that include but are not limited too
Watching for opposing fleet members that warp out, the general direction they warped too and then passing that information and the character name to our scouts so they can start the search for them.
Keeping track of the opposing fleets ships that have been killed by type and by character that was flying them and relying that info to the FC when they ask for it.
Watching the immediate battle area for ships that may have slipped past the scouts usually but not always these are ships that were cloaked when they came in.
And the list goes on. All of this adds up to the simple reality that it may be 20 - 30 minutes or more between chances to interact with that emergency cyno character sitting cloaked up somewhere. And yet even though I am sitting in my chair and extremely active in game, myself and my corp mates have to risk loss of ships because of your idiotic auto log off timer? Just go away with this idea it has no place here in EvE. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
194
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 15:33:02 -
[73] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Must be nice to live such a simple life in EvE that running afoul of an auto log off timer will never be an issue, unfortunately that is not the so for all of us. One last go at getting you to understand. On another character I am a logi pilot for a low sec corp besides tracking my own fleet and their need for reps I have other duties that include but are not limited too Watching for opposing fleet members that warp out, the general direction they warped too and then passing that information and the character name to our scouts so they can start the search for them. Keeping track of the opposing fleets ships that have been killed by type and by character that was flying them and relying that info to the FC when they ask for it. Watching the immediate battle area for ships that may have slipped past the scouts usually but not always these are ships that were cloaked when they came in. And the list goes on. All of this adds up to the simple reality that it may be 20 - 30 minutes or more between chances to interact with that emergency cyno character sitting cloaked up somewhere. And yet even though I am sitting in my chair and extremely active in game, myself and my corp mates have to risk loss of ships because of your idiotic auto log off timer? Just go away with this idea it has no place here in EvE.
So... your entire argument is now limited to....
an emergency cyno character.
So let's delve into that.
You have an account that is not being used that you want to be sitting in space and it's too much work for you to simply click on the window or alt-tab over to the client for that character once in a 20 minute window to keep it from logging off.
You honestly don't have time for a single click in 20 minutes? Whining about having to click a window once every 20 minutes frankly sounds weaker than whining about wanting to ensure that actual players are present when you see a character in game.
I will say that my fleet combat experience doesn't reach the larger TiDi fights... but most of mine have a pretty meaningful amount of downtime, regardless of if I'm running logistics, scouting or flying a main-line ship. I mostly use my second account to have something to do during those downtimes. I can't think of a time where I didn't click over to that screen over a 20 minute period. If I have time to click over and adjust market entries while in a small 10-man fleet, I assume that the larger slower moving fleets would have even more time to kill.
It literally takes less than a second to alt-tab to your other account, click the chat window and alt-tab back.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 15:40:01 -
[74] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?
As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.
And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. So your solution is to log off those chairs that are not empty? Here is a test I use when discussing game play issues: If you adversely impact those not causing the problem you are trying to address your suggested fix is a bad one. I suggest your solution is a bad one as it will logoff "chairs that are not empty." And you know...you can always use the sticky thread like you are supposed too. No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Your basic idea is this. You have multiple sessions up. You see the flashing "You are afk and will be logged off in two minutes due to inactivity" message. You hear an audible clue that indicates one of your sessions is about to be logged off. You're still going to do nothing let the session be logged off... and whine about it? If that's the case... the player's brain being empty is just as much a problem as the chair being empty. They were being told that a session was about to be logged and chose not to do anything. Either that or they didn't notice... which is effectively the SAME as the chair being empty. That session had no human mind doing anything with it or even watching it. It's an empty chair either way. Why on earth are you so set on being able to stay logged in on an account you are not playing, are not looking and are not even listening for audible alerts from? That session is an empty chair. Log it to use it when you want to... you know... USE IT. There's no adverse impact. At all. You can still log into an account when you need to use it. And if you're not using it... there's no need to keep it logged in. Nothing is preventing you from using as many accounts as you like... as long as you USE THEM. Your definition of being adversely impacted is incredibly petty. And if you want to whine about the sticky thread... feel free to reply to me there. I'm responding to your comments. My response is going to go where the comments are made. If you me to quit responding to you here... don't post here. Or quit moaning about the sticky thread if you aren't willing to post your responses there.
I have 3 accounts. I often run all three at the same time. I have 2 monitors, inevitably that means one of them will "underneath" one of the other two sessions.
So yes, you will log out non-empty chairs with this "solution".
And frankly, I find it just silly to log out people who are not ATK simply because it somehow causes you some sort of mental angst that somebody may not be sitting in their chair at that precise moment you want to interact with them. As I noted before, being logged in is not even necessary to have an impact on the game...why should be logged in and AFK be a big deal?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 15:46:53 -
[75] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Must be nice to live such a simple life in EvE that running afoul of an auto log off timer will never be an issue, unfortunately that is not the so for all of us. One last go at getting you to understand. On another character I am a logi pilot for a low sec corp besides tracking my own fleet and their need for reps I have other duties that include but are not limited too Watching for opposing fleet members that warp out, the general direction they warped too and then passing that information and the character name to our scouts so they can start the search for them. Keeping track of the opposing fleets ships that have been killed by type and by character that was flying them and relying that info to the FC when they ask for it. Watching the immediate battle area for ships that may have slipped past the scouts usually but not always these are ships that were cloaked when they came in. And the list goes on. All of this adds up to the simple reality that it may be 20 - 30 minutes or more between chances to interact with that emergency cyno character sitting cloaked up somewhere. And yet even though I am sitting in my chair and extremely active in game, myself and my corp mates have to risk loss of ships because of your idiotic auto log off timer? Just go away with this idea it has no place here in EvE. So... your entire argument is now limited to.... an emergency cyno character. So let's delve into that. You have an account that is not being used that you want to be sitting in space and it's too much work for you to simply click on the window or alt-tab over to the client for that character once in a 20 minute window to keep it from logging off. You honestly don't have time for a single click in 20 minutes? Whining about having to click a window once every 20 minutes frankly sounds weaker than whining about wanting to ensure that actual players are present when you see a character in game. I will say that my fleet combat experience doesn't reach the larger TiDi fights... but most of mine have a pretty meaningful amount of downtime, regardless of if I'm running logistics, scouting or flying a main-line ship. I mostly use my second account to have something to do during those downtimes. I can't think of a time where I didn't click over to that screen over a 20 minute period. If I have time to click over and adjust market entries while in a small 10-man fleet, I assume that the larger slower moving fleets would have even more time to kill. It literally takes less than a second to alt-tab to your other account, click the chat window and alt-tab back.
Or watching the market. Last night I had a character logged in and I'd put up buy orders. I was reading and writing some stuff in another window and periodically looked over. Generally my attention was focused on what I was reading and writing though. Could have been logged off? Yup. Would it be critical? No. Would it be annoying? Yes. Is this a good change? Not in this case.
How about using an alt cloaked watching over a station for hostile activity...same thing. Attention might be focused elsewhere. Would it be critical if such a character was logged out? Quite possibly. Would it be annoying, fook yeah.
You have tried to cover the cyno alt, but you assume that one's attention will not be "captured" at a critical moment. Again having such a character logged out could be of critical importance and all to make you feel better about playing the game. Imposing a cost on other players for your benefit is not really good game design. Such a thing should be eschewed as much as possible.
These are just some examples I have come up with. Might there be others? Sure. My failure to find all examples of where this would impose a cost on others does not mean they do not exist (doesn't mean they do either). But you have made zero effort to think of your own examples and want to dismiss examples with a casual handwave.
Sorry, your idea is bad, your attempt to support it is bad.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 15:50:11 -
[76] - Quote
I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.
Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 15:54:27 -
[77] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.
How nice of you to define activity to support your position.
I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make.
Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
194
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 17:57:22 -
[78] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:
Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.
How nice of you to define activity to support your position. I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make. Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness. Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front.
It's not activity.
Activity means taking an action. So to be active in a game means to take action in the game. This isn't some odd personal definition... it's what the word means. If you take no action in the client... you are not active in the game... and thus are not showing activity. Yes... I might be active in real life... but I'm not in the game.... because I've taken NO ACTIONS IN THE GAME. Brushing my teeth is an activity... but not in the game.
Are you really not able to understand this? Or are you just trying to parse words to avoid the actual topic?
As for the rest of your rather comical defense of "playing a game without actually playing"... I just can't comprehend that concept. I can't see how a logged in account that you never click on and can't be bothered to click on if a message pops up about being logged off for lack of activity is anything other than an "empty chair". It behaves the exact same way an empty chair would if it were running the eve client.
Again... for me a multiple player game must have an actual player involved... not an empty chair (or a player who is sitting in the chair but refuses to hit their keyboard or move the mouse or in any way interact with the client). |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
194
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 17:59:02 -
[79] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.
Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game.
It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK.
I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair. |
Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 20:25:13 -
[80] - Quote
Time to fix this nonsense already ....
just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem.. No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible.
In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed.
YOU ARE WELCOME |
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 20:36:36 -
[81] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.
Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game. It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK. I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair.
Either way you gain information...so what...you should have things made easier for you?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 20:44:32 -
[82] - Quote
Li Soikutsu wrote:Time to fix this nonsense already .... just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem.. No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible. In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed. YOU ARE WELCOME
Seriously? That is the best you got, lots of people have looked at this thread? It tells you nothing of what the views are on the issue of those looking at the thread.
The problem is you cannot tell when a player is AFK or not. And given the nature of EVE relative to other games you will be logging off ATK players. Why would you want to do that?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 20:48:42 -
[83] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:
Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.
How nice of you to define activity to support your position. I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make. Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness. Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front. It's not activity. Activity means taking an action. So to be active in a game means to take action in the game. This isn't some odd personal definition... it's what the word means. If you take no action in the client... you are not active in the game... and thus are not showing activity. Yes... I might be active in real life... but I'm not in the game.... because I've taken NO ACTIONS IN THE GAME. Brushing my teeth is an activity... but not in the game. Are you really not able to understand this? Or are you just trying to parse words to avoid the actual topic? As for the rest of your rather comical defense of "playing a game without actually playing"... I just can't comprehend that concept. I can't see how a logged in account that you never click on and can't be bothered to click on if a message pops up about being logged off for lack of activity is anything other than an "empty chair". It behaves the exact same way an empty chair would if it were running the eve client. Again... for me a multiple player game must have an actual player involved... not an empty chair (or a player who is sitting in the chair but refuses to hit their keyboard or move the mouse or in any way interact with the client).
Whatever, I say it is activity. Looking to see if a buy order is complete, looking to see if some people are undocking is activity. You want to define activity to suit the outcome you want.
Making players sit and have to periodically do stuff and make their game experience worse to make your game experience better does not strike me as reasonable...especially when many of those players made worse off are not responsible for the issue you are trying to deal with.
You should not be nerfing the game play of those who are not causing the problem.
Why are you not understanding this point?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 20:50:44 -
[84] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:
Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.
How nice of you to define activity to support your position. I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make. Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness. Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front. It's not activity. Activity means taking an action. So to be active in a game means to take action in the game. This isn't some odd personal definition... it's what the word means. If you take no action in the client... you are not active in the game... and thus are not showing activity. Yes... I might be active in real life... but I'm not in the game.... because I've taken NO ACTIONS IN THE GAME. Brushing my teeth is an activity... but not in the game. Are you really not able to understand this? Or are you just trying to parse words to avoid the actual topic? As for the rest of your rather comical defense of "playing a game without actually playing"... I just can't comprehend that concept. I can't see how a logged in account that you never click on and can't be bothered to click on if a message pops up about being logged off for lack of activity is anything other than an "empty chair". It behaves the exact same way an empty chair would if it were running the eve client. Again... for me a multiple player game must have an actual player involved... not an empty chair (or a player who is sitting in the chair but refuses to hit their keyboard or move the mouse or in any way interact with the client).
Here...suppose you go and buy something on the market. Are you interacting with the other player? Yes. Is that player even logged in? Maybe not. Yes, you can interact with players not logged in. Why so butthurt about a player logged in but not being as active as you like?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 20:50:59 -
[85] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Li Soikutsu wrote:Time to fix this nonsense already .... just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem.. No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible. In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed. YOU ARE WELCOME Seriously? That is the best you got, lots of people have looked at this thread? It tells you nothing of what the views are on the issue of those looking at the thread. The problem is you cannot tell when a player is AFK or not. And given the nature of EVE relative to other games you will be logging off ATK players. Why would you want to do that?
Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,
Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3986
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 22:40:02 -
[86] - Quote
Wait...now there is going to be an obnoxious pop up box?
FFS man. Just get it that your idea is awful.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3986
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 22:44:20 -
[87] - Quote
Li Soikutsu wrote:
Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,
Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.
You're a special one aren't you.
I can chat in team speak whilst docked or at a safe whilst people have a break and eat food. Now I have to click away an obnoxious flashy thing because some nullbears are afraid of their own shadow?
No thanks.
I don't afk cloak either.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 23:59:26 -
[88] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Li Soikutsu wrote:
Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,
Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.
You're a special one aren't you. I can chat in team speak whilst docked or at a safe whilst people have a break and eat food. Now I have to click away an obnoxious flashy thing because some nullbears are afraid of their own shadow? No thanks. I don't afk cloak either.
Yes if you go AFK you better click that button or get logged off considering you ain't playing anyways. Also I never put a time on the best idea ever AFK timer popup.. let's make it 69 minutes.. if you do not have any ingame activities for 69 minutes not a single click or keystroke you should get a pop windows that you will be safe logged. And I really don't get how that's a problem considering no one was playing the game anyways.
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3986
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 00:13:16 -
[89] - Quote
The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.
Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 04:07:26 -
[90] - Quote
Li Soikutsu wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Li Soikutsu wrote:Time to fix this nonsense already .... just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem.. No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible. In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed. YOU ARE WELCOME Seriously? That is the best you got, lots of people have looked at this thread? It tells you nothing of what the views are on the issue of those looking at the thread. The problem is you cannot tell when a player is AFK or not. And given the nature of EVE relative to other games you will be logging off ATK players. Why would you want to do that? Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK, Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.
I don't AFK camp. So much for that theory then...you can go back under your bridge.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 04:09:34 -
[91] - Quote
Li Soikutsu wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Li Soikutsu wrote:
Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,
Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.
You're a special one aren't you. I can chat in team speak whilst docked or at a safe whilst people have a break and eat food. Now I have to click away an obnoxious flashy thing because some nullbears are afraid of their own shadow? No thanks. I don't afk cloak either. Yes if you go AFK you better click that button or get logged off considering you ain't playing anyways. Also I never put a time on the best idea ever AFK timer popup.. let's make it 69 minutes.. if you do not have any ingame activities for 69 minutes not a single click or keystroke you should get a pop windows that you will be safe logged. And I really don't get how that's a problem considering no one was playing the game anyways.
People who are logged off can "play" in that they have an impact on the game. Why so butthurt over people you suspect of being AFK?
Or are you all sitting there going, "Wait...what is Teckos talking about? I don't want to call him a liar as it looks soooo much like a tarp."?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 04:10:56 -
[92] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.
Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime.
Well technically there was that one AFK carrier pilot who was jumped by a gang of bombers and by the time he got back from wherever his geckos had wiped out most of the stealth bombers....
But that is the exception that proves the rule, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
3557
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 06:18:33 -
[93] - Quote
If the OP had posted in the correct thread and this discussion carried out in the appropriate place, the AFK cloaking thread would be over page 500 now. That would at least have been an achievement rather just him starting another go-nowhere thread where players whine about something CCP is well aware of.
CCP knows some people don't like cloaky camping and want something proactive they can do against a cloaked scout.
CCP wants there to be risk in nullsec so they can't just nerf cloaks making the apex group near invulnerable.
These conflicting interests are not simple to resolve.
I have no doubt this is on the midterm roadmap and will finally get addressed at some point, but it is not going to be by the sinplistic call to nerf cloaks or the ability to stay logged into the game (seriously people?) that self-interested nullbears have been spewing for years.
Nullsec is seriously off-course at this point. Despite the lion's share of ISK and minerals being given to nullsec, there is very little conflict flowing from that. Lack of scarcity, and too much safety in part provided by the free and perfect intel of local, has turned nullsec into a farming zone where everyone spends their time just fortifying their space and turbo-farming resources that are having a deleterious effect on the economy to the point some players are being pushed out of the game because they can no longer compete.
I don't know what can be done to realize their game vision, but I do know that CCP isn't going to make a change that only would make the nullbears even safer and reduce the chance of conflict even more. Any one who spills tears on the forum asking them to has no understanding of how the game is suppose to work.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6756
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 06:34:18 -
[94] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:If the OP had posted in the correct thread and this discussion carried out in the appropriate place, the AFK cloaking thread would be over page 500 now. That would at least have been an achievement rather just him starting another go-nowhere thread where players whine about something CCP is well aware of.
CCP knows some people don't like cloaky camping and want something proactive they can do against a cloaked scout.
CCP wants there to be risk in nullsec so they can't just nerf cloaks making the apex group near invulnerable.
These conflicting interests are not simple to resolve.
I have no doubt this is on the midterm roadmap and will finally get addressed at some point, but it is not going to be by the sinplistic call to nerf cloaks or the ability to stay logged into the game (seriously people?) that self-interested nullbears have been spewing for years.
Nullsec is seriously off-course at this point. Despite the lion's share of ISK and minerals being given to nullsec, there is very little conflict flowing from that. Lack of scarcity, and too much safety in part provided by the free and perfect intel of local, has turned nullsec into a farming zone where everyone spends their time just fortifying their space and turbo-farming resources that are having a deleterious effect on the economy to the point some players are being pushed out of the game because they can no longer compete.
I don't know what can be done to realize their game vision, but I do know that CCP isn't going to make a change that only would make the nullbears even safer and reduce the chance of conflict even more. Any one who spills tears on the forum asking them to has no understanding of how the game is suppose to work.
See....this is why you guys should post in the sticky thread...so Black Pedro does not come along and make everyone feel dumb.
You silly buggers.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1292
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 12:53:18 -
[95] - Quote
Scialt wrote:I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. My mom was watching as I was reading through this thread again last night and she latched onto this specific comment. Her response was simple, elegant and it takes no effort from CCP AND if you take the advice WE do not have to deal with this idiotic auto log off timer. And so I quote her directly.
"He simply needs to consider ALL cloaked ships to be an active player, that would solve his problems."
Leave it to a 95 year that does not play computer games to come up with the easy solution. But you know she is right and this should be an easy task since there is no way for you to know for sure if a cloaked ship has an AFK player behind it or not. |
Greylord Kane
getyourrocks Corp Integritas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 15:06:05 -
[96] - Quote
Hmmm didn't know EVE was suppose to be a game you just log in and walk away from your keyboard all day. That doesn't even make sense....unless you are purposely doing it to grief a system. I can understand if you are playing the game actively and waiting at your keyboard for a hot drop. A sniper waits for his target, doesn't leave his gun hidden in the bushes and just goes into town, takes a nap, goes to the store, and then comes back later. They're has to be a balance between active cloak camping (Which is fine) and AFK Cloaking (which is not) which is done purposefully for act of griefing systems and players (Which MANY games have now put some sort of Anti AFK system in place. (smart smart smart smart ...smart.) All of the outlined things that have been mentioned before, Fuel for the cloaking device, Anti cloaking devices for citadels, Timing out if away from keyboard too long. Should be looked into. The people who support no local have their options to just go into a WH and stay :) But for a majority of the people Pro AFK cloaking or touting to get tougher, or fleet up, or similar things... if you look them up they are the ones doing AKF cloaking and causing the issue. Truly sad. There is a serious unfair balance which will continue to drive people from the game unfortunately. And just watch here come the responses now to protect their precious griefing tactics, bottom line if your going to play a game be at your keyboard and play. The if CCP does balance out cloaking shouldn't be a big deal for the droppers and people who are properly using the mechanics. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
196
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 15:07:16 -
[97] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.
Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game. It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK. I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair. Either way you gain information...so what...you should have things made easier for you?
Because it's a MMO.
massively mulitPLAYER
key-word... player. Not bot. Not empty-chair. Player.
It's not about 'easy'. It's about a game based on having a massive amount of players ensuring that players are actually present. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
196
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 15:11:27 -
[98] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. My mom was watching as I was reading through this thread again last night and she latched onto this specific comment. Her response was simple, elegant and it takes no effort from CCP AND if you take the advice WE do not have to deal with this idiotic auto log off timer. And so I quote her directly. "He simply needs to consider ALL cloaked ships to be an active player, that would solve his problems." Leave it to a 95 year that does not play computer games to come up with the easy solution. But you know she is right and this should be an easy task since there is no way for you to know for sure if a cloaked ship has an AFK player behind it or not.
I do treat all cloaked ships as active.
I find it annoying when I go through the trouble of doing that and NOBODY IS FREAKING THERE.
See my point?
I'm TRYING to give you target. I WANT you to shoot at my ship. I'm actively trying to play a multiplayer game with other players. I am making every effort to create content. But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes.
I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 15:19:26 -
[99] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.
Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime.
I've never seen Eve's code... but I have a hard time believing that a player logged in does not impact server resources. It may be a small enough impact to not matter, but a player simply being in a system will have some actual impact on the performance of others in the system, even if they are doing nothing. Any time you do something in the game that requires the server to report back to your client on the other players present... the number of said players will impact the time taken for that call.
CCP can tell us that having 1000 AFK cloaked ships in a system has a negligible impact and I'm going to believe them. If they say it has no impact I'm going to try to get them to show me their code so I can figure out how to do that trick in my work.
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 15:28:58 -
[100] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Whatever, I say it is activity. Looking to see if a buy order is complete, looking to see if some people are undocking is activity. You want to define activity to suit the outcome you want.
Making players sit and have to periodically do stuff and make their game experience worse to make your game experience better does not strike me as reasonable...especially when many of those players made worse off are not responsible for the issue you are trying to deal with.
You should not be nerfing the game play of those who are not causing the problem.
Why are you not understanding this point?
Because it's not a point.
This reminds me of Bill Clinton's impeachment. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
You're trying to define activity as not taking an action in the game.
Not taking an action = no activity.
I'm frankly concerned how many Eve players think playing the game involves... not ever touching their keyboard or mouse.
|
|
Greylord Kane
getyourrocks Corp Integritas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 15:36:10 -
[101] - Quote
Why are you not understanding this point?
[/quote]
Because it's not a point.
This reminds me of Bill Clinton's impeachment. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
You're trying to define activity as not taking an action in the game.
Not taking an action = no activity.
I'm frankly concerned how many Eve players think playing the game involves... not ever touching their keyboard or mouse.
[/quote]
Well exactly right? If they purposely log a character on and go AFK for prolonged periods of time. Either they had way to much milk products and they are plugged up or they are purposely grieffing a system.... other wise they'd be on and active. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 18:03:51 -
[102] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. My mom was watching as I was reading through this thread again last night and she latched onto this specific comment. Her response was simple, elegant and it takes no effort from CCP AND if you take the advice WE do not have to deal with this idiotic auto log off timer. And so I quote her directly. "He simply needs to consider ALL cloaked ships to be an active player, that would solve his problems." Leave it to a 95 year that does not play computer games to come up with the easy solution. But you know she is right and this should be an easy task since there is no way for you to know for sure if a cloaked ship has an AFK player behind it or not. I do treat all cloaked ships as active. I find it annoying when I go through the trouble of doing that and NOBODY IS FREAKING THERE. See my point? I'm TRYING to give you target. I WANT you to shoot at my ship. I'm actively trying to play a multiplayer game with other players. I am making every effort to create content. But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes. I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair.
Or maybe he is and he is just not taking the bait.
See that is the thing, AFK cloaking injects uncertainty into the game. Is he there...is he not there. Is he a threat or not? It is not so easy to quantify. You have to work at it. Working as it should, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 18:06:36 -
[103] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.
Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime. I've never seen Eve's code... but I have a hard time believing that a player logged in does not impact server resources. It may be a small enough impact to not matter, but a player simply being in a system will have some actual impact on the performance of others in the system, even if they are doing nothing. Any time you do something in the game that requires the server to report back to your client on the other players present... the number of said players will impact the time taken for that call. CCP can tell us that having 1000 AFK cloaked ships in a system has a negligible impact and I'm going to believe them. If they say it has no impact I'm going to try to get them to show me their code so I can figure out how to do that trick in my work.
Suppose you have 2,000 people in system. Having 1 guy AFK is not going to cause a problem, the other 1,999 doing stuff...yeah they are going to cause a "problems". Removing that 1 AFK guy...won't help the 1,999 guys. The marginal impact is minuscule both because you still have 1,999 guys in system and because that guy you logged off...he wasn't doing anything anyways.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 18:14:16 -
[104] - Quote
Think in the end it's just a matter of opinion ..
some consider it bullshit for a AFK player to have any impact on the game others disagree.
I think we pretty much discussed everthing there can be when it comes to this topic or the 400+ pages one
Guess we will have to wait and see who CCP agree's with and how or if they are going to balance this thing out. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 18:16:00 -
[105] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Whatever, I say it is activity. Looking to see if a buy order is complete, looking to see if some people are undocking is activity. You want to define activity to suit the outcome you want.
Making players sit and have to periodically do stuff and make their game experience worse to make your game experience better does not strike me as reasonable...especially when many of those players made worse off are not responsible for the issue you are trying to deal with.
You should not be nerfing the game play of those who are not causing the problem.
Why are you not understanding this point?
Because it's not a point. This reminds me of Bill Clinton's impeachment. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." You're trying to define activity as not taking an action in the game. Not taking an action = no activity. I'm frankly concerned how many Eve players think playing the game involves... not ever touching their keyboard or mouse.
You want to define activity as doing something in the client. According to your definition if you are in your chair, and you click on your guns, and then it takes 5 minutes for them to cycle through all their ammo and you have to click again...in that 5 minutes you are NOT playing. I'm sorry that is just stupid. And you want this definition because it suits your argument against AFK cloakers.
Regarding this....
Quote:I'm frankly concerned how many Eve players think playing the game involves... not ever touching their keyboard or mouse.
Yeah, I'm not going to start telling other players, "Hey, you aren't sandboxing correctly!"
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 18:17:18 -
[106] - Quote
Li Soikutsu wrote:Think in the end it's just a matter of opinion .. some consider it bullshit for a AFK player to have any impact on the game others disagree. I think we pretty much discussed everthing there can be when it comes to this topic or the 400+ pages one Guess we will have to wait and see who CCP agree's with and how or if they are going to balance this thing out.
Players not logged in have an impact on the game. Players using autopilot (often AFK) can have an impact on the game. And these are by design.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 18:19:11 -
[107] - Quote
Greylord Kane wrote:
Well exactly right? If they purposely log a character on and go AFK for prolonged periods of time. Either they had way to much milk products and they are plugged up or they are purposely grieffing a system.... other wise they'd be on and active.
Maybe they should just do away with cloaking period. .lol wouldn't that be interesting.
You do know we are playing a sandbox game? Log in and do what you want....unless it is approved by some subset of players who have set themselves up to determine what is and is not appropriate in the sandbox.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Greylord Kane
getyourrocks Corp Integritas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 19:30:14 -
[108] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Greylord Kane wrote:
Well exactly right? If they purposely log a character on and go AFK for prolonged periods of time. Either they had way to much milk products and they are plugged up or they are purposely grieffing a system.... other wise they'd be on and active.
Maybe they should just do away with cloaking period. .lol wouldn't that be interesting.
You do know we are playing a sandbox game? Log in and do what you want....unless it is approved by some subset of players who have set themselves up to determine what is and is not appropriate in the sandbox.
Mmmm I would debate sandbox game as I have played many of those. I'm pretty sure AFK Camping is not a design that CCP was going for. Cloaky active camping (totally different) and surely acceptable. It is not game play when someone logs on and leaves all day a character logged in and is not actually behind the keyboard active. The motive behind that (AFK Camping) is griefing. Point in case. There is no other reason to do it. By balancing out this, it keeps active cloak alert and active, but also deals with the griefing. I'm all for hot drops, sneaking up, cloaking, and like active events. But not for people intentionally griefing.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.21 21:51:04 -
[109] - Quote
Greylord Kane wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Greylord Kane wrote:
Well exactly right? If they purposely log a character on and go AFK for prolonged periods of time. Either they had way to much milk products and they are plugged up or they are purposely grieffing a system.... other wise they'd be on and active.
Maybe they should just do away with cloaking period. .lol wouldn't that be interesting.
You do know we are playing a sandbox game? Log in and do what you want....unless it is approved by some subset of players who have set themselves up to determine what is and is not appropriate in the sandbox. Mmmm I would debate sandbox game as I have played many of those. I'm pretty sure AFK Camping is not a design that CCP was going for. Cloaky active camping (totally different) and surely acceptable. It is not game play when someone logs on and leaves all day a character logged in and is not actually behind the keyboard active. The motive behind that (AFK Camping) is griefing. Point in case. There is no other reason to do it. By balancing out this, it keeps active cloak alert and active, but also deals with the griefing. I'm all for hot drops, sneaking up, cloaking, and like active events. But not for people intentionally griefing.
Again, that does not matter. What CCP was going for is not really the issue. CCP gives us this "universe" and they give us various things in game so we can interact. What and how we use them is not up to them. CCP only steps in if they see something as threatening to game balance. AFK camping is not game breaking.
AFK camping is not griefing. That particular line of attack against AFK camping has been tried dozens of times all to no avail. In fact, if you go to the support section of the website and search for griefing you'll only find this. If one goes to the list of known exploits guess what one finds under the list of Non Exploits,
Quote: Common Misconceptions about Exploits
This passage contains common tactics and other player conduct that is often mistakenly reported as exploits but are in fact not.
[snip]
AFK Cloaking
A player is present in a system for a long time, usually cloaked, doing nothing at all most of the time.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
frqgrenade
Kapsle i Profity
0
|
Posted - 2017.07.22 08:24:15 -
[110] - Quote
Cloak works as intended and needs no fixing. AFK cloaking is non issue. Don't really know why people get so butthurt over this. |
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
3558
|
Posted - 2017.07.22 09:49:53 -
[111] - Quote
frqgrenade wrote:Cloak works as intended and needs no fixing. AFK cloaking is non issue. Don't really know why people get so butthurt over this. Because it is "griefing" to leave your name in local when you don't intend to attack someone within the next 20 minutes or so!
Seriously, anyone who makes this argument really is playing the wrong game. In Eve you are not entitled to be left alone, and you certainly not entitled to free, perfect intel that allows you to avoid any fight. Weakening the value of that free intel by leaving a character in a system is not "griefing" - it is using one of the few strategies available to deny resources to your nullsec rivals.
But New Eden is a persistent universe, where my character is a permanent feature. Having character names disappear from local when they log off breaks my immersion. I think to be more realistic there should be a 7, or perhaps even 30 day timer where the character's name stays in local. I mean, if I use a locator agent it will tell me the character is in that system, so why should they not be visible in local chat?
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1293
|
Posted - 2017.07.22 13:42:38 -
[112] - Quote
Scialt wrote:But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes.
I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair. I tire of people like you, people that are so desperate to prove a point that you will twist the words of others to suit your agenda. The record as witnessed by this thread will prove that I never said I was reading this AND playing EvE and that is good enough for me. However since you have now proven that you are at the point where you are willing to purposely twist others words I am done with this discussion and as my parting words I leave these things.
Auto log off timers are idiotic and should be removed from ALL computer games.
If I want to spend my money to pay for a game I should be able to sit and do NOTHING if that is what I choose to do.
If my sitting logged into a game doing nothing bothers or offends you that is your problem not mine or the game companies.
The very nature of EvE as a single thread, persistent simulation of what our futures might hold would be harmed irreparably with the addition of auto log off timers and I for one hope that CCP continues to resist call from people like you to add them.
As others have stated because of the free intel local offers (knowing who is in system with you) and AFK cloaking is the only partial counter we have to that free intel then AFK cloaking needs to stay in the game. See next please they are related.
Auto log off timers would remove about 90% of the effectiveness of cloaky camping, and given that cloaky camping is the only counter we have to the free intel offered by local auto log off timers would be a really bad thing for EvE.
And last. The mental anguish, stess and hassles that AFK cloaky campers cause to pampered and entitled nul sec players like you OP are perhaps the very best reason to leave the out of the game. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1275
|
Posted - 2017.07.22 17:24:11 -
[113] - Quote
Greylord Kane wrote:Mmmm I would debate sandbox game as I have played many of those. I'm pretty sure AFK Camping is not a design that CCP was going for. Cloaky active camping (totally different) and surely acceptable. It is not game play when someone logs on and leaves all day a character logged in and is not actually behind the keyboard active. The motive behind that (AFK Camping) is griefing. Point in case. There is no other reason to do it. By balancing out this, it keeps active cloak alert and active, but also deals with the griefing. I'm all for hot drops, sneaking up, cloaking, and like active events. But not for people intentionally griefing.
Not really. I have a character that does exploration in deep null and WHs. He hasn't docked up in over three months. If I'm in deep null and am in a system with 30 hostiles and they decide to bubble/camp the gates, I have a few options.
1. Try and crash the gate and pray they don't kill me. 2. Try and find a WH to get out, but there probably isn't one in system 3. Log out, and give them 30 seconds to scan me down (which is more than enough time) 4. Stay in a safe spot, stay cloaked, set max speed and wait until it's safer to escape
No one has ever hurt anyone while cloaked. Nerfing cloaks just to make nullsec ratting and mining safer is ridiculous. |
Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises Goonswarm Federation
484
|
Posted - 2017.07.22 17:38:47 -
[114] - Quote
Another 400 page thread in the making and nothing even remotely new to say. We don't need two of these for devs to ignore. /thread
Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3989
|
Posted - 2017.07.22 23:42:24 -
[115] - Quote
The load put on the server by afk players is negligible. Like almost nothing.
Greylord, what you think is griefing, is not griefing. Just like ganking is not griefing. No it wasn't intended, but neither was the use of local as intel. DUM DUM DUM!!!
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1217
|
Posted - 2017.07.23 02:52:25 -
[116] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:
In Eve you are not entitled to be left alone
Unless you are cloaking, apparently
Black Pedro wrote:and you certainly not entitled to free, perfect intel that allows you to avoid any fight. Again, unless you are cloaking.
Only the sacred cloak is allowed to provide endless safety in Nullsec. All worship the sacred cloak, and let no carebear infringe upon it's holy mandate.
|
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.23 09:50:32 -
[117] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:Another 400 page thread in the making and nothing even remotely new to say. We don't need two of these for devs to ignore. /thread
so why have you posted here? Im sure the mods are quite capable of doing their job without you butting in. They are of course free to close this or moderate this how they choose and i am also sure they have seen this and chose to leave it for now. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.23 19:44:46 -
[118] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Black Pedro wrote:
In Eve you are not entitled to be left alone
Unless you are cloaking, apparently
Or in a station.
Mike Voidstar wrote:Black Pedro wrote:and you certainly not entitled to free, perfect intel that allows you to avoid any fight. Again, unless you are cloaking. Only the sacred cloak is allowed to provide endless safety in Nullsec. All worship the sacred cloak, and let no carebear infringe upon it's holy mandate.
Non-sequitur much?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1275
|
Posted - 2017.07.23 21:04:07 -
[119] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:and you certainly not entitled to free, perfect intel that allows you to avoid any fight. Again, unless you are cloaking.
Only the sacred cloak is allowed to provide endless safety in Nullsec. All worship the sacred cloak, and let no carebear infringe upon it's holy mandate. [/quote]
Or watching local in sov null. Watch that free, perfect intel tool and you will literally never die. You can still earn isk though. Cloaked you can't. That means local is the much bigger problem. |
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.23 23:12:09 -
[120] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:The load put on the server by afk players is negligible. Like almost nothing.
Greylord, what you think is griefing, is not griefing. Just like ganking is not griefing. No it wasn't intended, but neither was the use of local as intel. DUM DUM DUM!!!
I disgaree its griefing to an extent. the issue isnt having an afk cloaker per say, the issue is not being able to do a single thing about it. A person can be cloaked in a system for weeks and weeks
He isnt the problem as such, but the fact is the metagame, the psychological effect, the what if scenario.
In a covert he can be warping about unseen He will hard to pin down via probes, because he can always move and cloak in a new spot in the system being able to have a cyno, that can jump in 50 caps or sub caps instantly is the problem
You cant expect people to live with that, youre never going to undock anything because of the above points. You cant expect people to have a cap fleet on stand by 24/7 365 days its just stupid to think that and even expect it.
Also if you have a standby fleet then theres prob spy intel knowing what you have, so it can be easily countered, or your 5 man gang is puny enough anyway for 50 ships to jump through. This the problem regarding afk cloaking. The entire thing is completely and utterley one side because you will never know whats coming.
ive seen people just move out of systems because of it, because they just want to get on and play the game esp when someone is just cloaked 24/7 without any consequence. A ship in reality probably would not be able to cloak for so long, that would have some serious effect on the ship.
and maybe another suggestion is that when a cloak is activated, it goes into overheat mode and eventually burns out and needs repairing via nanite paste, and you cannot move during that time, because people can just keep warping around the system until it does.
|
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3989
|
Posted - 2017.07.23 23:39:41 -
[121] - Quote
And yet people do undock. And people do live with that. And they play with standby fleets. The thing is, null is not for everyone. Definitely not for you it seems (not for me either). Meta gaming and spies and working together are the bread and butter of null. Null comes with big rewards for big playstyles. People who just want to 'get on with the game' by themselves will be able to do so in hi-sec, and even low.
It's NOT griefing. You just have the wrong idea of what griefing is. Honestly you don't even seem to get the game. Why are you even here?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.23 23:57:57 -
[122] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:The load put on the server by afk players is negligible. Like almost nothing.
Greylord, what you think is griefing, is not griefing. Just like ganking is not griefing. No it wasn't intended, but neither was the use of local as intel. DUM DUM DUM!!! I disgaree its griefing to an extent. the issue isnt having an afk cloaker per say, the issue is not being able to do a single thing about it. A person can be cloaked in a system for weeks and weeks
So what that is not griefing, harassment or anything else. You think you are the first one to notice AFK cloaking. It is as old as cloaks themselves. CCP could have patched this out a long, long time ago, but they chose not too.
Quote:He isnt the problem as such, but the fact is the metagame, the psychological effect, the what if scenario.
In a covert he can be warping about unseen He will hard to pin down via probes, because he can always move and cloak in a new spot in the system being able to have a cyno, that can jump in 50 caps or sub caps instantly is the problem
This is laughable for a number of reasons.
First this psychological metagame is something CCP actually likes to see develop in the game. CCP did not set out to create a cookie cutter MMO where everyone can log in and ignore other players all the time (Cue Mike's nonsense at this point--but then again Mike has issues with words like 'all'...anything over two letters really). The metagame is a huge part of EVE Online and what makes what is fundamentally a boring game so interesting.
Second, even after cynos and jump drives were seriously nerfed quite awhile ago we get the same old whine and dine from the likes of you. "Oh boo-hoo, cynos, cynos, cynos. CCPlease nerf!!!" So they get nerfed (for other reasons) and yet here you are again with "One more nerf and it will be balanced."
Quote:You cant expect people to live with that, youre never going to undock anything because of the above points. You cant expect people to have a cap fleet on stand by 24/7 365 days its just stupid to think that and even expect it.
Wrong, I have undocked and ratted with an AFK cloaker back when we lived in Cloud Ring when I was in EXE. We had, literally, one good ratting system. We had just gone down into Outer Ring and pooped on his alliance's front yard to try and get some content. This one guy responded by camping out one decent ratting system. Thing is I was in a very different TZ than him. I looked him and his corp up. So I'd go there and rat away quite confident he was unlikely at his keyboard.
Why can't you guys undock as a group and do stuff? Why can't you rat in a standing fleet, on voice comms, or even in the same group in the same anomaly? Yes, your ISK/minute or whatever will take a hit, but you are still make ISK, still doing stuff, chatting on comms, and keeping your indexes up. And hey, if they drop on you and you have PvP fit ships you may get some really good content. Why can't you do this?
Quote:Also if you have a standby fleet then theres prob spy intel knowing what you have, so it can be easily countered, or your 5 man gang is puny enough anyway for 50 ships to jump through. This the problem regarding afk cloaking. The entire thing is completely and utterley one side because you will never know whats coming.
Why do you always assume you are going to lose. Are you just that bad? Do you suck that much at this game? seems like you do as that is what you are basically saying here. "We suck so badly we can't even deal with a handful of guys who might cyno in, but probably won't...so CCP come pat our poo-poo and make us feel better about our incompetent selves." You do realize that is what you just wrote, right? You are basically admitting to being BadGäó.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3989
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 00:54:52 -
[123] - Quote
I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.
I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.
But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
3558
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 07:23:55 -
[124] - Quote
Chance Ravine (reporting on EVE Northeast last weekend) wrote:Someone asked when cloaky camping would get nerfed. Fozzie said that cloaking as a whole would not get nerfed unless local as a whole also got reworked. He said the systems are too intertwined to touch one without the other.
I guess we can let this thread die then and revisit it at a future time when there is an opportunity for local to be changed?
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
126
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 10:13:34 -
[125] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.
I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.
But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.
hang on, dont start with making this about me OK. Firstly there are 100s of people not happy with it. OK?
this was just a general suggestion to do something, so stpo making blind childish comments and assumptions.
You clearly are one of those sad cloaky campers that will cry like a baby if you sad lives get taken away... please go cry elsewhere because im really not interested, honestly im not. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3989
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 13:03:26 -
[126] - Quote
The hypocrisy in that post. I don't cloaky camp. I don't gank either but see what i think about that. I don't wardec either and see how i feel about that...
And hundreds of people fall into the category of 'lone renter who does not pvp and feel the game should change so they can print isk risk free'. Doesn't mean they should get it.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 13:06:02 -
[127] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes.
I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair. I tire of people like you, people that are so desperate to prove a point that you will twist the words of others to suit your agenda. The record as witnessed by this thread will prove that I never said I was reading this AND playing EvE and that is good enough for me. However since you have now proven that you are at the point where you are willing to purposely twist others words I am done with this discussion and as my parting words I leave these things. Auto log off timers are idiotic and should be removed from ALL computer games. If I want to spend my money to pay for a game I should be able to sit and do NOTHING if that is what I choose to do. If my sitting logged into a game doing nothing bothers or offends you that is your problem not mine or the game companies. The very nature of EvE as a single thread, persistent simulation of what our futures might hold would be harmed irreparably with the addition of auto log off timers and I for one hope that CCP continues to resist call from people like you to add them.As others have stated because of the free intel local offers (knowing who is in system with you) and AFK cloaking is the only partial counter we have to that free intel then AFK cloaking needs to stay in the game. See next please they are related. Auto log off timers would remove about 90% of the effectiveness of cloaky camping, and given that cloaky camping is the only counter we have to the free intel offered by local auto log off timers would be a really bad thing for EvE. And last. The mental anguish, stess and hassles that AFK cloaky campers cause to pampered and entitled nul sec players like you OP are perhaps the very best reason to leave the out of the game.
I have to laugh at the bolded part.
So you think a good simulation of a future where people aren't actually paying attention... to... their... actual... bodies?
Ooookaaayyyy....
Look, it's a game. It's a game designed around interaction between multiple players. In order for that interaction to happen... players need to be present... not away from their keyboard.
I want cloaked droppers to scout out my ratting or mining ship and determine if I'm bait or not. My entire goal from this is to actually promote interaction. The only thing I'm asking is that you actually be present at your keyboard... so my tasty bait has a chance of being bitten.
I'm sorry... I think that an actual PLAYER should be required for a Massively Multi-PLAYER game. You seem to want to have one where the "player" part is optional. I think that is a immensely stupid opinion. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 13:11:41 -
[128] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.
I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.
But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.
I'm not sure you are understanding what I'm asking for.
It's a PvP area. I'm present... I'm the fist "Player" in PvP. What I'm asking is that the other person also be present. What we're getting now is a lot of PvEC (player vs empty chair). They don't have to take the bait. They can passively watch local while active watching a movie... just clicking on the screen every few minutes. But I want them to at least be there for my attempts at interaction to have some chance of success. I got no shot with an empty chair. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3989
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 13:28:46 -
[129] - Quote
Is dishonest. You're not bothered about the empty chair, no one is. You're just using that as a thin disguise because you're actually very terrified of the chair being occupied.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 19:34:02 -
[130] - Quote
Awesome!
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1218
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 20:02:01 -
[131] - Quote
Which just proves what I said all along.
Hiring devs from the ranks of people like Fozzie was a bad idea. When your devs are all mouth breathing baby eaters who condone and enjoy predatory behavior, that's all the game will ever be.
Which is sad. So many came here for other things that were promised, and then never actually developed.
They may as well just remove all of industry and provide all the ships for free, and turn the game into Battlefield in spacs. |
Greylord Kane
getyourrocks Corp Integritas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 20:05:56 -
[132] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:The load put on the server by afk players is negligible. Like almost nothing.
Greylord, what you think is griefing, is not griefing. Just like ganking is not griefing. No it wasn't intended, but neither was the use of local as intel. DUM DUM DUM!!!
Ganking is active.. Cloaking and hot dropping active....AFK logged on all day is not-active but done to purposely grief a system. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3990
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 20:18:56 -
[133] - Quote
Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.
You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 20:20:57 -
[134] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.
I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.
But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice. hang on, dont start with making this about me OK. Firstly there are 100s of people not happy with it. OK? this was just a general suggestion to do something, so stpo making blind childish comments and assumptions. You clearly are one of those sad cloaky campers that will cry like a baby if you sad lives get taken away... please go cry elsewhere because im really not interested, honestly im not.
I have no problem with people who do not want to PvP. If that is not what you want to do, fine. Although it is ironic that you get upset when people talk about how you want to play, yet you act like such a little turd when talking about others.
However, do not come in and lecture and hector where PvE and PvP intersect. I have gotten on Mike's case because he has never used a cloak to hunt another player. Ever. As such, his comments about it are bereft of practical hands on knowledge.
For example, Mike is fond of saying that the cloaker has the advantage of initiative. That is true to some extent. I can decide when to engage...when a target is available. What Mike does not talk about, either due to ignorance or because he knows it will undermine his case, is that the target is not just some helpless player all fat and dumb. The player has local to warn him of my presence and he can warp out. In other words, it can take 20 or 30 tries before finding somebody who is simply not paying attention to local until it is too late. It is a classic case of the seen and the unseen. Everybody sees the poor schlub who screwed up and was caught and killed. What they do not see are the 25 guys before that who either got away, or docked up 30 seconds after a hostile enters system.
It is usually at this point that Mike will make an appearance, so let me pre-empt him. GÇ£Working as intended!!! Working as intended!!!1!!1!!one!!GÇ¥ LetGÇÖs set aside the entire possibility that this was not intendedGÇöi.e. the use of local as an intel tool. I think it was not intended, but as I noted before, what CCP intendsGǪor not is not really an issue unless it is an issue for overall game balance. Let us instead agree that it is working as it should given the underlying mechanics. So in that regards I agree with Mike. If you are paying attention and see the hostile enter system and scurry for safetyGǪokay, that is as it should currently be. However, there should abso-fecking-lutely be no Goddamn fecking extra protection for the little dim bulb who is completely focused on re-watching season 6 of Game of Thrones while his ishtar cleans out another haven.
The anti-cloak people might say, GÇ£IGÇÖm not wanting extra protection for that guy!GÇ¥ But you almost always are. Many of the GÇ£suggestions to deal with AFK cloakersGÇ¥ inevitable NERF CLOAKS IN GENERAL. The cloaking fuel, the cap drain, the POS/citadel decloaking module, the anchorable structure, and on and on and on. None of these things give a mother fecking shite if the fecking cloaked ship is AFK or not. Why should an ATK cloaky hunter be nerfed? He is not AFKing. Why should a player doing exploration in a cloaking ship have his game nerfed? How about a guy using a blockade runner, people donGÇÖt usually AFK in those. And all of these GÇ£suggestionsGÇ¥ (personally, IGÇÖd call most of these GÇ£suggestionsGÇ¥ the mumblings or morons into their drool cups) are never accompanied with any change to the mechanic that allows for AFK camping to be so damn effective. Local.
And look, you started yet another thread that has been discussed multiple times. You are in effect mumbling into your drool cup.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Greylord Kane
getyourrocks Corp Integritas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 20:32:43 -
[135] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.
You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already.
Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..:
So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor.
VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1276
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 22:05:30 -
[136] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Which just proves what I said all along.
Hiring devs from the ranks of people like Fozzie was a bad idea. When your devs are all mouth breathing baby eaters who condone and enjoy predatory behavior, that's all the game will ever be.
Which is sad. So many came here for other things that were promised, and then never actually developed.
They may as well just remove all of industry and provide all the ships for free, and turn the game into Battlefield in spacs.
Did...did you really just use the term "mouth breathing baby eaters" and expect to be taken seriously?
You sound like a 15 year old throwing a tantrum.
Quote where it was said you could do industry and ratting in deep null with zero consequences. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6757
|
Posted - 2017.07.24 23:08:29 -
[137] - Quote
Greylord Kane wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.
You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already. Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..: So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor. VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes.
That is not the definition in EVE because that would include much of PvP in this game. So try again.
Oh, and using things in game in an unintended manner...that too is not a bug, but a feature in EVE...so you fail for two reasons.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3990
|
Posted - 2017.07.25 00:15:13 -
[138] - Quote
Greylord Kane wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.
You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already. Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..: So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor. VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes.
That's not griefing in eve dumb ass.
In the VERY ARTICLE you're quoting it says:
Quote:Space sims like Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous have incorporated activities typically considered griefing as part of the gameplay mechanism.
And its funny you've left 'active' and 'not active' out this time . In eve players are free to use mechanics in ways they were not intended to be used. If ccp deem it detrimental to the game it becomes an exploit. If they dont, it doesn't and it becomes normal gameplay. What you, or anyone else other than ccp,think is griefing is irrelevant.
By that definition ganking, wardeccing and even using warp stabs in fw would be considered griefing.
Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Greylord Kane
getyourrocks Corp Integritas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2017.07.25 01:42:38 -
[139] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Greylord Kane wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.
You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already. Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..: So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor. VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes. That's not griefing in eve dumb ass. In the VERY ARTICLE you're quoting it says: Quote:Space sims like Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous have incorporated activities typically considered griefing as part of the gameplay mechanism. And its funny you've left 'active' and 'not active' out this time . In eve players are free to use mechanics in ways they were not intended to be used. If ccp deem it detrimental to the game it becomes an exploit. If they dont, it doesn't and it becomes normal gameplay. What you, or anyone else other than ccp, think is griefing is irrelevant. By that definition ganking, wardeccing and even using warp stabs in fw would be considered griefing. Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
Nice opinion and good try by twisting facts. It was not an article I got that simply fro Wiki. funny MANY games are addressing AFK issues........... Trying justify definitions to fit your needs...classy. I again like I stated MANY times before am for cloaking, bombing runs, hot dropping, those types of active activities, just not being AFK.
What purpose does being AFK all day serve? If you say AFK doesn't hurt anyone well then you'll need to answer to the countless people leaving paid accounts and the game over it. (FACT). If you say it does serve a purpose than I am correct that it is being misused for a scare tactic / griefing a system (Which people are doing in game). Remember I am talking about someone who logs on and leave his character on all day. sigh newbs. I'm sure you'll come up with some witty way to twist that again and say those people just need to leave then...lol and it will just go on and on. At some point CCP will notice |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1218
|
Posted - 2017.07.25 01:43:44 -
[140] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
It is usually at this point that Mike will make an appearance, so let me pre-empt him. GÇ£Working as intended!!! Working as intended!!!1!!1!!one!!GÇ¥ LetGÇÖs set aside the entire possibility that this was not intendedGÇöi.e. the use of local as an intel tool. I think it was not intended, but as I noted before, what CCP intendsGǪor not is not really an issue unless it is an issue for overall game balance. Let us instead agree that it is working as it should given the underlying mechanics. So in that regards I agree with Mike. If you are paying attention and see the hostile enter system and scurry for safetyGǪokay, that is as it should currently be. However, there should abso-fecking-lutely be no Goddamn fecking extra protection for the little dim bulb who is completely focused on re-watching season 6 of Game of Thrones while his ishtar cleans out another haven.
If that was the case, that guy isn't watching local, and you should be able to kill him easily. It's not like local actually does anything to protect you. You have to actively watch local and take action to get to safety.
I know that's hard for you to understand, as you seem to think everyone is completely safe for as long as they want... kinda like how cloaks work.
I don't know what all that working as intended drek is about. Both systems work pretty much as designed. The issue being that you are complaining that you don't get enough kills while breaking the defensive efforts of entire alliances with a spare alt potentially flying a newbie ship, and you want extra credit for the "gargantuan" ""effort"" of showing up in a system. |
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Johnny Blueyes
Strategic Insanity FUBAR.
0
|
Posted - 2017.07.25 04:57:17 -
[141] - Quote
I seem to remember we got rid of off-grid boosting because "no counter play" griping from the PVPers. But talk about dealing with some afk camping issues with no counter play and they crap themselves.
If we're going to allow cloaky camping, then we should allow off-grid mining boosts. No risk, no risk.
I hear a lot of "get a fleet together" nonsense in these threads. When you have a Goonswarm player camping two of your small alliance's systems with cloaky cyno bombers, dropping anywhere from 10-20 Blops/Lokis against your 30-40 online members (including alts) and the hunters roam the systems once in a while, and just bridges himself back in when your alliance kills him, where's the counterplay? And, we know they are willing to bring caps, so bringing bigger stuff isn't an option. So we should just lay down and take it is apparently the consensus from the afk camping lovers.
We tried denying kills, we've killed the camper multiple times, we've tried just about everything at this point that we are capable of managing, and this camper has sat here for 2 months now. Dude logs in a few hours after downtime during the week, stays on until downtime. On weekends, logs in after downtime and is on all day. How in the hell can that possibly be intended game play?
It's one thing if it's a situation like a hunter ACTUALLY hunting, roaming through an area looking for kills with a blops fleet waiting to pounce. To be honest, I have no problems with that AT ALL. But cloaky afk camping has absolutely no counter play, since you can form up and wait all day for something to happen, or just try to play as normal but you can't. When you have a monster group like Goons hitting a tiny alliance like mine, camping for months on end bringing overwhelming numbers no matter what we try, there's no counter play. While a large alliance SHOULD have the ability to easily overpower a small alliance, the issue is afk cloaky camping. I don't even have an issue with active cloaky camping, but afk cloaky camping is ridiculous.
The "get gud" argument is coming from players who operate in large groups, like they are somehow good themselves lol. For small groups, it's not about getting "gud" |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6759
|
Posted - 2017.07.25 05:17:09 -
[142] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
It is usually at this point that Mike will make an appearance, so let me pre-empt him. GÇ£Working as intended!!! Working as intended!!!1!!1!!one!!GÇ¥ LetGÇÖs set aside the entire possibility that this was not intendedGÇöi.e. the use of local as an intel tool. I think it was not intended, but as I noted before, what CCP intendsGǪor not is not really an issue unless it is an issue for overall game balance. Let us instead agree that it is working as it should given the underlying mechanics. So in that regards I agree with Mike. If you are paying attention and see the hostile enter system and scurry for safetyGǪokay, that is as it should currently be. However, there should abso-fecking-lutely be no Goddamn fecking extra protection for the little dim bulb who is completely focused on re-watching season 6 of Game of Thrones while his ishtar cleans out another haven.
If that was the case, that guy isn't watching local, and you should be able to kill him easily. It's not like local actually does anything to protect you. You have to actively watch local and take action to get to safety.
No kidding Mike and nothing I wrote indicated otherwise. In fact, what I wrote indicates precisely the opposite.
Quote:I know that's hard for you to understand, as you seem to think everyone is completely safe for as long as they want... kinda like how cloaks work.
Can you first inject the reading comprehension skill then train it to 1?
Quote:I don't know what all that working as intended drek is about. Both systems work pretty much as designed. The issue being that you are complaining that you don't get enough kills while breaking the defensive efforts of entire alliances with a spare alt potentially flying a newbie ship, and you want extra credit for the "gargantuan" ""effort"" of showing up in a system.
Bravo Sierra. You do not know what was intended. Based on comments by Devs over time my suspicion is that local as intel was not intended, but that is what we have. And with cloaks the current situation is balanced if sub-optimal.
And no dim wit. I am not complaining I don't have enough to kill I'm complaining that because you are such a stupendous ignoramus you are talking out over you buttehole when it comes to cloaking ships. Hell I don't think you have ever used one other than to hide out and dodge PvP. My point is you are missing the unseen. Ever heard of the broken window fallacy? Long story short is as follows:
Precocious young lad throws a rock; breaks cobbler's window. Cobbler has glazier replace broken window for 5 [insert denomination here]. Dim bulb says, "Don't be mad at the young lad he just created economic activity!" Reasonable person notes, "No, because that 5 [insert denomination here] the cobbler spent on the window now will not be spent on meat and vegetables for his dinner...there is no new economic activity. You know...opportunity cost."
You are the dim bulb Mike. You can't see the unseen...it does not even register with you. You can't see that to get 1 kill cloaky hunter might have to try many times to get that one kill you point to and whine about on zkill. Alternatively he might have to AFK cloak for a week or two. Nobody is saying, "I should get more kills." I am saying, once again, that in your stupendous ignorance you don't know what the feck you are talking about. You should go try to get one kill in a cloaking ship and see what it is like. But you sit there and not only wallow in your ignorance you are proud of it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6759
|
Posted - 2017.07.25 05:18:32 -
[143] - Quote
Johnny Blueyes wrote:I seem to remember we got rid of off-grid boosting because "no counter play" griping from the PVPers. But talk about dealing with some afk camping issues with no counter play and they crap themselves.
If we're going to allow cloaky camping, then we should allow off-grid mining boosts. No risk, no risk.
Holy crap you are dumb. I mean really, really dumb.
Off grid boosting provides a benefit to active players.
Does AFK cloaking provide a benefit to anyone? No. Idiot.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Johnny Blueyes
Strategic Insanity FUBAR.
0
|
Posted - 2017.07.25 05:46:10 -
[144] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Johnny Blueyes wrote:I seem to remember we got rid of off-grid boosting because "no counter play" griping from the PVPers. But talk about dealing with some afk camping issues with no counter play and they crap themselves.
If we're going to allow cloaky camping, then we should allow off-grid mining boosts. No risk, no risk. Holy crap you are dumb. I mean really, really dumb. Off grid boosting provides a benefit to active players. Does AFK cloaking provide a benefit to anyone? No. Idiot. Edit: And for this: Quote:But cloaky afk camping has absolutely no counter play, since you can form up and wait all day for something to happen, or just try to play as normal but you can't You're right, then don't do that. I know you'll probably not get what that means. It means if you are going to be in NS and going to be "small" then you'll have to be innovative and do stuff differently. Here let me give you an example. Back when I was in EXE we were not a big alliance. But we did go to Outer Ring to mess with the alliances there (more people than us if they could get their **** together). But inevitably we'd end up camping the system (boring as Hell). So one of our FCs would come on and we'd get in fleet and run their anomalies. We'd have them locked up in station, be making ISK and when we got escalations and it dropped goodies we'd toss the good loot into a pile and later on had would raffle stuff off in alliance. So we accomplished our goal, made a bit of ISK and had fun. We also took all their POCOs and set up our own and those damn things paid for our SRP.
Goon response as expected. "You're dumb". And tell me then, this afk cloaker that comes back once per day at a random time, in his cloaky bomber, comes right next to a mining ship, decloaks, drops cyno, ships bridge in, pop the ship, warp out, that guy didn't provide a benefit? Sitting there all day not doing anything or even playing the game. Gets on for two seconds and provides a completely un-counterable benefit.
See, if you could read, I said that I don't have a problem with cloakies scouting around looking for targets. I have a problem with the AFK cloaker sitting in a system all day. You have no idea when they are going to be active, and therefore cannot organize a defense at all. There is no counter, it's 100% safe for the attackers. Good job you cowards, you dropped on a mining barge. LOL.
Whatever, done with this conversation. Too many goons in here with awful attitudes. Anybody that dissents is personally attacked and the ISDs are too busy locking harmless threads to correct their buddies. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3990
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Posted - 2017.07.25 07:32:26 -
[145] - Quote
Greylord, it's on the wikipedia page! *facepalm*
I'm not changing the definition, CCP are. The purpose of afk-cloaking is to hunt players. And which countless people are quitting because of it? Can you back up that 'FACT'? Scaring people in eve is not griefing lol, show me where it says using scare tactics and misinformation in eve is griefing or in anyway not allowed...
Again, what other games do is irrelevant. How long have you played eve? Has no one yet said to you:
Quote:Forget everything you know about MMO's. EVE is not other like other MMO's.
Forget what you think you know about what griefing is. It is not griefing in eve.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3990
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Posted - 2017.07.25 07:34:56 -
[146] - Quote
Johnny, if a cloaker is sitting around waiting for the moment to strike, he must be at his keyboard. When he's afk, the perfect moment to strike may come and go a hundred times...afk cloakers do not gather intel, or gain anything, other than perhaps the complacency of their enemies.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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ISD Bubblemoon
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
93
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Posted - 2017.07.25 13:52:07 -
[147] - Quote
Thread closed.
Please continue your discussion in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=397030&find=unread
ISD Bubblemoon
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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