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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.08 01:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Tsunari on 08/01/2004 12:06:39 I think we can all agree EVE being more of a rat race to get a battleship than its advertised idea of having all ships having a role in combat. I can name a couple good posts describing how boring it is to be forced to use a Battleship not only to be effective in combat, but in industry as well. This big fish eat little fish type of game-play is getting old quickly and leaves about 80% of the gameÆs created items and ships hung out to dry. Below I have some ideas to give frigates and cruisers some meaning in large scale PvP combat.
Frigate Subsystem Targeting: Since frigates are smaller and have better tracking speed and accuracy with their turrets, why not use that as an advantage on larger targets? Since frigates have the ability to hit small parts of a larger ship through accuracy and maneuvering why not give them the ability to target subsystems of a larger ship? Targeting things like:
- Shield Generators : Hitting these parts of the ship would significantly hinder use of shields.
- Energy Generators : Hitting these parts of the ship would effect the capacity of the ship.
- Engines : Hitting these would slow the ship or even disable its warpdrive
- Weapon Turrets: Hitting these parts of the ship would degrade or even disable the effectiveness of a targets weapons.
- Sensors : Hitting this will degrade the quality of a ships sensors
- Drone Bays : Hitting these would decrease the effectiveness or disable the use of drones
and so on.
So what I propose is that Frigates can NOT destroy something as large as a battleship, but they can, in packs, effectively hinder or disable it. That leads me to the use of Cruisers.
Cruisers: Cruisers should be the ideal anti frigate ship. Battleship's guns should have a very difficult time hitting frigates while cruiser's guns should hit with ease making them effective anti-frigate platforms. However cruisers, as they are now, should be weak to battleships making battleships an effective counter to cruisers.
A simple idea to solve a complex problem.
Like in any good balance design, every ship needs to have its strengths and weaknesses. Giving frigates the ability to target those weaknesses will allow frigates to offer some play on the battlefield. Furthermore, it will spark a lot more strategy and pvp interest in all players of EVE. Not just the ones that treadmilled for months to get and support a battleship.
CCP Please consider this post seriously and players please support this post with your feedback. ~Tsunari |
Herophant
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Posted - 2004.01.08 03:10:00 -
[2]
Sound like an wery good idea. i love it. But im not sure if that would be easy to implent.
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GrendelPrime
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Posted - 2004.01.08 04:23:00 -
[3]
This sounds like a really cool idea, would be nice to see something like this in play(at least on chaos so people could try it out). With the Cruise missile option being taken away from Frigates, something like this could help bring back there usefulness. "Though you may die, do not give up your honor" -- Miyamoto Musashi
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.08 06:09:00 -
[4]
Implementation will probably not happen over night, but I think it's well worth the dev's time since they already invested a lot of time making the frigates and cruisers and the modules with em. Might as well make them useful and bring back some of the community making more profit. ~Tsunari |
sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.01.08 09:53:00 -
[5]
Very good idea. i post something similar in "frigates on the brink of extiction" thread about Frigate Subsystem Targeting.
it'll be good to extends this idea to modules / turrets / launchers. frigate don't have enough firepower to destroy a battleships. the only frigate which is really effective against BS is the kestrel (but it won't since kestrel won't fit cruise missile), the other are useless. if a little frigate (even a level 2) can damages, even destroy modules, turrets, launchers, they will gain a unique and interesting purpose for frigate.
What will change ? 1st battle Everybody fear to lost their BS even the insurance you lose a lot of money when you lose it. it's good to be sure to have an advantage against the ennemy ships. before BS enter in battle, frigate can destroy heavy turrets and launcher. Once the BS lost 50% of it's firepower, you gain your advantage.
But it's not so easy, BS pilot can defend themself with ROF, drone, and frigate too. A strategy must be define. for example : 2 frigates attack drones and frigates, another one ROF launcher, and the last destroy heavy turrets. A good communication between gangmat must be done to apply this strategy.
Blockade : Campers can destroy indy's afterburner/microwarp to slow them down. On the other side, frigate can attack turret's campers. Once major turret / launcher are destroy the blockade is broken.
There is other applications, strategy for frigate in this case. I can't give them all. there is some balance to do (give more HP to modules/turrets/launchers for example).
2nd war : Since the frigate can attack modules, This mean that the ennemy must pay to repair or replace the modules. if you keep harrassing your ennemy by making little skirmish, they'll lose ISK and if they lose too many ISK, you will gain a certain advantage on the ennemy.
Little corp have a more chance against bigger corp.
3rd Market Weak modules will be destroy easily, and the corp in wars won't use minerals to replace them all. they'll buy some on the market. Maybe market will have a better life.
that's all. there is certainly bad sides (didn't have time to think about it . post them if you have some). but this give a true purpose to frigates to fight.
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reef
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Posted - 2004.01.08 11:02:00 -
[6]
Rock, scissor & stone. I like it! _____________________________________________ For all your BS needs, buy XiiX Technologies.
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.08 11:12:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Tsunari on 08/01/2004 11:13:02 Like Sokkusu demonstrates, it opens many many different styles of gameplay when it comes to PvP. ~Tsunari |
Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.08 11:26:00 -
[8]
Sadly, when the drone damage got doubled, if a frigate gets inside 20km now its likely to be gobbled up for dinner by drones.
Every battleship has at least 6 heavy drones, doing 120 dmg / 2 seconds, thats way more then the frigates can cope with.
Getting close is the death to a frigate unless someone has EW'd the battleship first, and sadly I don't think this change will help the lack of damage output caused by the loss of the cruise. Missiles damage per second will drop far below that of turret weapons then.
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.08 11:29:00 -
[9]
Alrighty then, make cruisers good anti drone platforms. Chalk up another use for cruisers. ~Tsunari |
arutha
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Posted - 2004.01.08 11:35:00 -
[10]
dont understand this thread in the least . frigates disabling battleships . >sigh
you just havent figured out yet that the battleship is the most powerfull ship out there for a purpose . not only do the pose <critical threat> there guns can hurt . i like that . i dont want that changed .
why should i lose my hard earned 75 milion isk battleship too a 240 k frigate . where the hells the game balance there /.
you guys seem too want a cheap solution and no risk . yay my frigate can disable his battleship . well stuff you all . the battleship owns and should stay that way . stop whining and earn yourself a battleship . instead of coming on here and trying too ruin the game for folks who worked damn hard too get theres .
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.08 12:10:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Tsunari on 08/01/2004 12:14:48
Quote: why should i lose my hard earned 75 milion isk battleship too a 240 k frigate . where the hells the game balance there ?
Read the post again. I underlined it. I said that frigates can NOT destroy a battleship, but can, in packs, hinder or disable it. Large ships should have escort by smaller ships. Furthermore, you have drones and smartbombs at your disposal to counter frigates. Plus, your desire to keep your battleship safe from frigates makes the cruiser much more valuable in a fleet giving them some benefit as well.
Having a game where everyone has to invest in a 75 million ISK battleship in order to participate in PvP is absurd. ~Tsunari |
PVT Moiv
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Posted - 2004.01.08 12:14:00 -
[12]
Quote: dont understand this thread in the least . frigates disabling battleships . >sigh
you just havent figured out yet that the battleship is the most powerfull ship out there for a purpose . not only do the pose <critical threat> there guns can hurt . i like that . i dont want that changed .
why should i lose my hard earned 75 milion isk battleship too a 240 k frigate . where the hells the game balance there /.
you guys seem too want a cheap solution and no risk . yay my frigate can disable his battleship . well stuff you all . the battleship owns and should stay that way . stop whining and earn yourself a battleship . instead of coming on here and trying too ruin the game for folks who worked damn hard too get theres .
Thats pretty narrow minded. It is a great idea. Obviously a single frigate isnt going to disable a whole battleship, but with a few targeting specific areas it would be possible. I give it the thumbs up
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sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.01.08 12:19:00 -
[13]
Quote: you guys seem too want a cheap solution and no risk . yay my frigate can disable his battleship . well stuff you all . the battleship owns and should stay that way . stop whining and earn yourself a battleship . instead of coming on here and trying too ruin the game for folks who worked damn hard too get theres .
Of course one frigate can't disable a BS. a group a frigate should be able to do it.
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Black Drake
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Posted - 2004.01.08 12:32:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Black Drake on 08/01/2004 12:36:08 Actually, no, thats not what they're saying.
As was stated: Frigates can NOT destroy something as large as a battleship, but they can, in packs, effectively hinder or disable it.
Frigates being able do disable a battleship ONLY if the battleship allows it. They arent suggesting "an incursus MWD's up to an appoc, clicks on 2 modules and the appoc is screwed" its a suggestion that, if the appoc ignores the frigate, the frigat CAN do some damage.
At its current state, a frigate can do 1 of two things when facing a battleship in groups of less then 20; run or die...
We'll say now, if 3 frigates and a cruiser warp in to fight a gate camping battleship, which is the greater threat? 3 frigates or the cruiser? With this suggestion, a 4-on-1 fight still has a chance of succeeding.
If the battleship focuses on the cruiser then the frigates have time to get up and hinder the BS. If the BS goes after the frigates, then the cruiser gets higher opertunity to atack the BS.
Even if the objective isnt to kill the camper, you could chase them off by causing him to loose more money repairing his modules then hes gaining by camping the gate.
In some respects this is do-able with the current system but requires much-much more cooperation and planning. If the 4 frigates got up close quick and jammed/scrambled the BS while the cruiser did most of the heavy hitting its possiable but not likely.
Tho, even in war situations, its HIGHLY doubtful people would use frigates with disabling abilities. You warp in, another battleship locks you, couple quick tachyon hits and your out for the rest of the battle.
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.08 13:20:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tsunari on 08/01/2004 13:22:31 You have some points Drake, however we are not trying to make it such that frigates can depend on themselves, only so they have some purpose. Furthermore, losing a frigate is cheap and expendible and some people might see this as an advantage coupled with larger ships.
The actual numbers would have to be carefully planned out ofcourse and your point makes this clear. There is a fine line in making frigates either worthless or too powerful in this sense. But from what I can see, 3 or so frigates should be able to knock out a subsystem which would be invaluable in some situations.
For example:
Behold the infamous Shield Tank Scorpion. Properly fitted, it can sit and yawn while an apoc pounds away aimlessly with it's lasers. The apoc seemingly has no chance in having much more than a stalemate on it's hands. But lets say, we have 4 or so frigates escorting the apoc. The frigates swoop in and target the shield subsystems hindering its shield hardning/boosting capability giving the apoc an advantage. It can also go on the flipside, lets say the apoc has the upperhand. The Scorp's frigate escort can swoop in and hinder its energy generating capabilities or gallentean's drones, or minmitar's engines. You see what I am getting at here? Ofcourse if the battleships want to keep their subsystems intact, they would need cruisers for anti-frigate support.
The overall objective is to see fleets of Battleships accompanied by frigates and cruisers. Not just battleships and only battleships. ~Tsunari |
Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.08 13:33:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ruffles on 08/01/2004 13:39:59 arutha, sorry to say that is such a pathetic view. I have a battleship, I still want frigates to be more viable then they were. They are getting better, and its nice to see them being used in combat again.
Bigger isn't better. Its just bigger, fatter, slower, easier to hit.
If battleships have no natural fear of anything smaller, then there is the same state we are in now. Everyone roams around in packs or single battleships causing massive harm to anything around.
We are NOT proposing 1 frigate is able to take down a battleship, and IF you have bothered to read the thread in my footer (I am a little doubtful you have), then you would realise what it is we are after.
If there is no benefit offered by frigates and cruisers other then price, what is the likely hood you will see mixed battlefleets? Very little.
If a battleship can do everything a frigate or cruiser can do, and do it better, why have the other two? Please answer that one.
I would advise you to read the thread in my footer. Its very long, filled with lots of comments about the current state of afters, or the state pre-castor patch. There is a lot you will learn about how and what was happening, and what we are trying to achieve.
Much like this thread is trying to give meaning to them in some way.
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.08 13:33:00 -
[17]
Btw.. I don't think subsystem damage should actually damage the modules themselves. It should do things like cause them to overheat (already in the works by ccp) lose power (by shooting power cuplings) etc.
Modules are expensive and frigates should not cause a big expense vs larger more expensive targets. Only disrupt their use. ~Tsunari |
Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.08 13:38:00 -
[18]
Black Drake, an Incursus up close with light neutron blasters with antimatter ammo is doing about the same or slightly more damage per second then a single tachyon laser. Interesting hey? Check Xeno's posts in the "Frigates on the brink of destruction thread", the maths is quite simple and very interesting to see. I would wager the 4 frigates would do more damage then the cruiser in that time.
The maths is there, frigate can and do hurt. The problem is most often survivability, as those drone changes really eat frigates fast. 6 heavy drones doing 120 dmg / 2 secs will eat a frigate in what? 6 seconds?
EW is the only way that frigates can get close to a battleship, and yes they can hurt.
Fact is we have only seen for a little under three weeks how effective frigates can be if used against solo ships.
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Lentia
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Posted - 2004.01.09 00:14:00 -
[19]
This is a good discussion. There are some interesting ideas here.
Already in deep space people arent using BS as much to mine as the 15 pack rats are warp scrambling u to death. Peeps are using cruisers more and more for this.
Already people are using frigates for intra-galactic travel as they are hard to target lock and easier to gate crash campers.
Already player pirates are using frigates to lock and web bigger ships to allow thier support ships to come in and destroy.
So yes, cruisers and frigates are coming back a little at a time. I agree more needs to be done, but DAMN that last patch once one heck of a learning curve. Changes need to be WELL thought out before being implemented.
Lentia Military Officer http://www.staf.online-guild.com/ |
Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.09 13:39:00 -
[20]
bump ~Tsunari |
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sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.01.10 14:19:00 -
[21]
bump
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.14 13:22:00 -
[22]
Bump, more discussion guys. ~Tsunari |
Gideon Wolfcat
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Posted - 2004.01.14 18:51:00 -
[23]
A really great idea, opens up so many possibilities.
I think their should be a chance for the modules to be destroyed, but in most cases they just should be damaged. Maybe I watched to much Star Treck, but I think it would be cool if there was a chance for damaged modules to be fixed in space.
Like... Every 10 seconds or so you have 1% chance to get a random damaged module up to work again. Every minute you have 6% chance to have a damaged module collapse and be destroyed. And there could be a skill that increased the chance to get a damaged module fixed by 1%/lv and decrease the chance for the module to collapse by 1%/lv. When you dock at a station, all your damaged modules gets repaired or at least not collapse.
Ohh, I better stop brainstorming or I probably totally get out of subject. Im with you, more power to my Tristan!
-Gideon
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Voidus
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Posted - 2004.01.20 14:25:00 -
[24]
I absolutely LOVE this idea. It reminds me of how the battle system in Homeworld works (one of the greatest space RTS IMO). Allowing frigates and cruisers to have more of a purpose in combat would allow casual players to enjoy this game much more, which WOULD increase subscription rates (hint hint, CCP). I suggest that we start a petition in order to get CCP's attention.
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.26 12:26:00 -
[25]
Well according to the feedback on this post as well as others, the idea of making frigates and cruisers have more punch on the battlefield is supported. EVE seems to have made a game of "moreness" rather than having a game with balances and strengths and weaknesses. Forcing everyone to use a Battleship is getting really old and fustrating.
Please keep supporting this thread. ~Tsunari |
Temerlyn
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Posted - 2004.01.26 13:24:00 -
[26]
ill have my say on how it should be, but its redundant now.
the game mechanics make the so you go frigates till you can aford a cruiser as they are superior in every way, then BS for the same reason.
All ships in the game should have a purpose specified for there class.
Lets start with BS's
they shouldn't be the main combat vessel, all large guns get massive reduction in tracking, reduce BS speeds so there slow as. Make large guns do huge damage. Make them so they cant hit smaller ships unless they're going exceptionally slow. Give BS's 3-4 times more armour/shields.
Purpose, they are designed as siege weapons, when deployable structures come out they should be given guns with no tracking and HUGE damage, designed specificily to hit targets that dont move i.e POS. BS's can fight other BS's or attack POS.
This set up makes them easy to hit, they can take tons of damage and they need to cause they cant fight the smaller craft. A BS's purpose is a siege weapon.
Cruisers
Should be the main combat ships. They dont need much change as they are except remove the black bird as an EW ship for the reason of frigates.
Frigates should be aimed as the support ships and have highly specialised roles.
I.E the only ships that can utilise EW, make frigates the mining ship but give them more than 2 turrets. Frigates can be designed not to be abused giving them 6 turrets to use for mining lasers.
The proposed mining elite frigates are a joke and totally pointless. they can have 2 mining lasers on them and whoop de doo they can even have 2 dcm lasers on em. So ill use my cruiser that can fit 4 maybe 5 lasers on it. With carefull positioning the damage cloud does nothing a shield booster cant fix.
the elite ships will not fix anything while the devs think the linear aproach to ship aquisition.
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Mned Graydroggen
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Posted - 2004.01.26 13:34:00 -
[27]
love your Ideas Tsunari :)
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Darsk'hul
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Posted - 2004.01.26 14:01:00 -
[28]
Same. you've got my vote ! __________
No more CEO of Placid Partners Inc. Contact for this corp is now Yilo.
Freelancer at Lost Order |
Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.27 00:05:00 -
[29]
Heres a post you guys should check out. Its an investigation about turret accuracy vs size and how it effects battles with smaller ships.
Turret Accuracy Flaw Discovered ~Tsunari |
Mr Raine
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Posted - 2004.01.27 00:38:00 -
[30]
I think there may be an even easier fix to all of this. Slow the battle down, reduce the damage all around and tweak the shield cap and modules appropriately. I noticed that most battles last a very short time. I believe by changing overall damage output for all weapons would prolong the battle making frigates and cruisers last longer in battle as well as BS. This would also cause people to make more tactical decisions. By making the battle last longer this way, it would bring the other classes back into play I believe. Plus reinforcements might actually be able to make it into battle before it's over.
Flame on.
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