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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
842
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Posted - 2012.01.01 00:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Would you still want it removed if it could buy time a week at a time instead and was just as tradeable as a plex?
Of course buy stuff at the NeX can still functional in it so the next question would you rather see the NeX removed and not the Micro-Plex if it could buy time?
Also when was the last time they removed a major feature (as in expansion core feature) without replacment? I know some things where taken out in the early days so I also want to know the nature of those things back then.
Just curious.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4126
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Posted - 2012.01.01 00:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
The NeX would still steal gameplay content from the game, and it is neither a major nor a core feature GÇö it still serves no useful game purpose that can't be handled far better through pre-existing mechanisms.
Same goes for AUR until Dust is released (and even then, its usefulness is questionable).
Nuk'em both until they glow, then shoot them in the dark. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Bischopt
Ice Fire Warriors
32
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Posted - 2012.01.01 00:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd rather see NeX and aurum removed completely. |
svetlana
Constellation Guard
8
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Posted - 2012.01.01 00:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote: Also when was the last time they removed a major feature (as in expansion core feature) without replacment? I know some things where taken out in the early days so I also want to know the nature of those things back then.
Just curious.
some major features were removed and not replaced:
Like deployable space mines. surely folks wouldn't abuse that ability?:)
being able to put any missile type into any launcher as long as there was m3, like one torp per standard launcher. made some popular gank frigate setups possible.
ability to fit as many MWD and AB as your cpu/grid could fit, and all could be turned on simultaneous to reach rediculous speed by todays standard. thus battleships were the fastest ships in the old old days.
jump gates at one time would put you in a random spot in the next system making entry easier in defended space, then it was changed to several different behaviors till we got what we have now... i guess that doesn't count since the mechanic was replaced many years later with the introduction of jump drives.
...just some off the top of my head.
edit: OMGOSH, forgot one of my favs,--in olden times missiles could not shoot through obstacles like rocks or collidable structures and were not smart enough to go around them, so as a combat tactic you could fly behind objects and hide from missile barrages. that was really cool, but imbalancing to gunships i suppose since the same thing did not work against guns. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
82
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Posted - 2012.01.01 00:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The NeX would still steal gameplay content from the game, and it is neither a major nor a core feature GÇö it still serves no useful game purpose that can't be handled far better through pre-existing mechanisms.
Same goes for AUR until Dust is released (and even then, its usefulness is questionable).
Nuk'em both until they glow, then shoot them in the dark.
This. Hard.
Eve is a sandbox, every item should be gettable by in-game means (barring special one-off unique stuff like the Alliance Tourney Rewards/Holiday pressies). The entire MT concept breaks one of the most important core rule of the sandbox.
Amusingly, the NEX store would make a pretty good ISK sink though. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
842
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Posted - 2012.01.01 00:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well I already spilled what I think needs to happen to get NeX (basically it should fix it for those who think like tippia does) more involved with game play instead of 'stealing' away, but not here to argue that just wanted know some things and opinions.
But if the people warrent ill post the entire collection in FnI.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
842
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Posted - 2012.01.01 01:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
svetlana wrote:Nova Fox wrote: Also when was the last time they removed a major feature (as in expansion core feature) without replacment? I know some things where taken out in the early days so I also want to know the nature of those things back then.
Just curious.
some major features were removed and not replaced: Like deployable space mines. surely folks wouldn't abuse that ability?:) being able to put any missile type into any launcher as long as there was m3, like one torp per standard launcher. made some popular gank frigate setups possible. ability to fit as many MWD and AB as your cpu/grid could fit, and all could be turned on simultaneous to reach rediculous speed by todays standard. thus battleships were the fastest ships in the old old days. jump gates at one time would put you in a random spot in the next system making entry easier in defended space, then it was changed to several different behaviors till we got what we have now... i guess that doesn't count since the mechanic was replaced many years later with the introduction of jump drives. ...just some off the top of my head. edit: OMGOSH, forgot one of my favs,--in olden times missiles could not shoot through obstacles like rocks or collidable structures and were not smart enough to go around them, so as a combat tactic you could fly behind objects and hide from missile barrages. that was really cool, but imbalancing to gunships i suppose since the same thing did not work against guns.
I didnt know about LoS missiles or random gates. If Id only joined two years sooner.
I do know they removed AOE missiles (which is why torpedos still have effing huge animations) :(
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Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
158
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Posted - 2012.01.01 01:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
What if a fish was called a cow? What if a door was called a pumpkin? What if a cow called a pumpkin??
To her it doesn't matter much.-á It's chasms have been leapt, and she leans upon the skepticism of her chosen fate. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
842
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Posted - 2012.01.01 01:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Its still a Door.
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Syphon Lodian
Fabled Enterprises
9
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Posted - 2012.01.01 01:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'd rather it be called ISK.
Yes yes.. their excuse was they didn't want to accidentally the economy with NeX, but clearly they're doing nothing with NeX right now, and I don't see how goggles and shirts are going to crash/inflate the iskies.
It was just a PLEX grab. |
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Jask Avan
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.01.01 01:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Get rid of Nex. |
Terajima Kazumi
EVE University Ivy League
40
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Posted - 2012.01.01 01:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The NeX would still steal gameplay content from the game, and it is neither a major nor a core feature GÇö it still serves no useful game purpose that can't be handled far better through pre-existing mechanisms.. This isn't necessarily true. If NEX content is developed using expected/existing NEX store revenue, then the development of NEX content does not 'steal gameplay content from the game', as without the NEX store, there would be no resources available to fund the additional development. It is even possible that, if the NEX store were to become profitable enough, it could eventually fund not only its own content development, but development for other parts of EVE.
Buzzmong wrote:Tippia wrote:The NeX would still steal gameplay content from the game, and it is neither a major nor a core feature GÇö it still serves no useful game purpose that can't be handled far better through pre-existing mechanisms.
Same goes for AUR until Dust is released (and even then, its usefulness is questionable).
Nuk'em both until they glow, then shoot them in the dark. This. Hard. Eve is a sandbox, every item should be gettable by in-game means (barring special one-off unique stuff like the Alliance Tourney Rewards/Holiday pressies). The entire MT concept breaks one of the most important core rule of the sandbox. Amusingly, the NEX store would make a pretty good ISK sink though. You can convert in-game acitivities to ISK, ISK to PLEX, PLEX to Aurum, and Aurum to NeX items. Transitively, you can already obtain NEX store items exclusively via in-game means. |
Valei Khurelem
House Khurelem
82
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Posted - 2012.01.01 03:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
BURN THE NEX STORE! CLEANSE! PURGE! KILL! |
Thaylon Sen
The Istari Syndicate
10
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Posted - 2012.01.01 03:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:What if a fish was called a cow? What if a door was called a pumpkin? What if a cow called a pumpkin?? I'd ask who you're dealer was.
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Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
182
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Posted - 2012.01.01 06:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
The NeX should be removed because it adds nothing to the long term viability of EVE.
If CCP truly wants EVE to grow and prosper into the future then they need to do it through expanding gameplay rather than with the NeX, which will ultimately become a detrimental cancer to the game.
Nex (Cash Shop)-á/ Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
854
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Posted - 2012.01.01 06:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:The NeX should be removed because it adds nothing to the long term viability of EVE.
If CCP truly wants EVE to grow and prosper into the future then they need to do it through expanding gameplay rather than with the NeX, which will ultimately become a detrimental cancer to the game.
What if you can involve game play into the nex such as selling bpos in it for clothing designers to research different cuts colors and materials?
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
450
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Posted - 2012.01.01 08:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Whats your problem. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
463
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Posted - 2012.01.01 09:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
a possible eve-like solution has been suggested before:
- get rid of aur - make cloth destructible - cloth bpc/bpo via plex aka license - automate cloth replacement on clone death until license expires, fall back to default cloth (same mechanics like clone upgrades)
those are the basics how it could work and it would be still extendable to add custom player driven bpcs, limited stuff, alliance editions.. you name it. Also things like cloth per clone could be added back.
however balancing prices is here once again the key point, however thats not my problem since i am no game designer. a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4139
|
Posted - 2012.01.01 12:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Terajima Kazumi wrote:This isn't necessarily true. If NEX content is developed using expected/existing NEX store revenue, then the development of NEX content does not 'steal gameplay content from the game', as without the NEX store, there would be no resources available to fund the additional development. It is even possible that, if the NEX store were to become profitable enough, it could eventually fund not only its own content development, but development for other parts of EVE. It would steal gameplay from the game regardless GÇö from day one, they've talked about the things now consigned to the NeX as being an opening for new player industries, but then they robbed the game of that content by shoving it into the NeX at the last second. It was always intended to be released, and was always planned (and budgeted) as part of Incarna GÇö NeX or no NeX, it would have been developed.
Moreover, if they wanted to generate revenue through the NeX, they would have chosen an actual MT business model instead GÇö for some reason, they did the exact opposite, so it never had any chance to pay for itself to begin with. They've decided to go for low-volume / high-cost / non-repeating sales, and that just screams GÇ£no profitGÇ¥. Looking at how they've talked about it, this non-profit status was known from the instant it was chosen. For CCP, the NeX does indeed serve a purpose, but that is a completely different one: to reduce liabilities in their booksGǪ but that is not the same thing as GÇ£profitGÇ¥ and GÇ£paying for itselfGÇ¥ (and this is why the unprofitable setup actually works).
Quote:Transitively, you can already obtain NEX store items exclusively via in-game means. GǪexcept that without out-of-game means, they won't exist.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1151
|
Posted - 2012.01.01 13:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bischopt wrote:I'd rather see NeX and aurum removed completely.
This.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
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Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
99
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
Terajima Kazumi wrote:You can convert in-game acitivities to ISK, ISK to PLEX, PLEX to Aurum, and Aurum to NeX items. Transitively, you can already obtain NEX store items exclusively via in-game means.
As Tippia already pointed out, it has to originate somewhere somewhere and that somewhere is an out of game transaction, which hurts the sandbox.
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Terajima Kazumi
EVE University Ivy League
49
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Terajima Kazumi wrote:This isn't necessarily true. If NEX content is developed using expected/existing NEX store revenue, then the development of NEX content does not 'steal gameplay content from the game', as without the NEX store, there would be no resources available to fund the additional development. It is even possible that, if the NEX store were to become profitable enough, it could eventually fund not only its own content development, but development for other parts of EVE. It would steal gameplay from the game regardless GÇö from day one, they've talked about the things now consigned to the NeX as being an opening for new player industries, but then they robbed the game of that content by shoving it into the NeX at the last second. It was always intended to be released, and was always planned (and budgeted) as part of Incarna GÇö NeX or no NeX, it would have been developed. Software development is a rather complicated process. As developers we throw a lot of ideas around, and as projects evolve they seldom go according to our initial plans; project planning is just plain hard, and financial constraints and project deadlines often conspire against our efforts, forcing us to compromise or drop planned features altogether.
We're not privy to the development process at CCP, so all we can do out here is speculate. Perhaps the NEX items were originally slated to be manufactured by players, but if those additions would do little to add to the value of the services CCP provides (and lets be realistic, adding tens of player-manufactured items to a game that already has hundreds of them isn't going to add notable value) then what would compel CCP to follow through on their alleged, original goal of making the NEX items player-manufactured?
Tippia wrote: Moreover, if they wanted to generate revenue through the NeX, they would have chosen an actual MT business model instead GÇö for some reason, they did the exact opposite, so it never had any chance to pay for itself to begin with. They've decided to go for low-volume / high-cost / non-repeating sales, and that just screams GÇ£no profitGÇ¥. Looking at how they've talked about it, this non-profit status was known from the instant it was chosen. For CCP, the NeX does indeed serve a purpose, but that is a completely different one: to reduce liabilities in their booksGǪ but that is not the same thing as GÇ£profitGÇ¥ and GÇ£paying for itselfGÇ¥ (and this is why the unprofitable setup actually works).
I'm not aware of any published or leaked data on the revenue generated by the NEX store, so speculation by either one of us on its profitability is meaningless. However, as the goal of any private enterprise is to make money, it's a bit silly to suggest that the goal of the NEX store was not expressly to add value to the service CCP provides. Note that this holds true even if the NEX store was a completely misguided effort and has been a total failure.
Tippia wrote:Quote:Transitively, you can already obtain NEX store items exclusively via in-game means. GǪexcept that without out-of-game means, they won't exist. In a mature economy this is largely irrelevant. In the real world, almost everything we consume is created via processes which we need not concern ourselves with and which we seldom know much about; all that matters is that we can go to the supermarket and buy what we need. The same is true with converting in-game efforts to NEX items because the only external variable, PLEX, has long been a stable and integral part of the EVE economy. |
Terajima Kazumi
EVE University Ivy League
49
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 00:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
I hit my quote limit. Forgive the double post.
Buzzmong wrote:Terajima Kazumi wrote:You can convert in-game acitivities to ISK, ISK to PLEX, PLEX to Aurum, and Aurum to NeX items. Transitively, you can already obtain NEX store items exclusively via in-game means. As Tippia already pointed out, it has to originate somewhere somewhere and that somewhere is an out of game transaction, which hurts the sandbox. The origination of the NEX items themselves is not the point of contention, and I have not asserted that their resource-free injection into the EVE economy is not problematic. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2676
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Well by that point that means bounties should be removed for the same manner.
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Skydell
Space Mermaids
73
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
It must be really hard for you Anti-Aurum people to keep a straight face with that great big ******* elephant in the room named Plex. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4220
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 00:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Terajima Kazumi wrote:project planning is just plain hard, and financial constraints and project deadlines often conspire against our efforts, forcing us to compromise or drop planned features altogether. GǪand that would be fine if that was what they did. Instead, they took content that was slated for player industries and made them not-player-industries but they didn't actually drop the content itself.
Quote:Perhaps the NEX items were originally slated to be manufactured by players, but if those additions would do little to add to the value of the services CCP provides (and lets be realistic, adding tens of player-manufactured items to a game that already has hundreds of them isn't going to add notable value) then what would compel CCP to follow through on their alleged, original goal of making the NEX items player-manufactured? It would add at the very least the same value as having the items in the NeX (viz. having the items in the game) and would have added the value of a new industrial sector. No matter how small, the addition would have been bigger than it eventually was and it would have reused existing mechanics that are proven to work, rather than the completely unfinished NeX.
So if the reasoning was that it wouldn't have added any value, they wouldn't have bothered with the NeX at all and just released the stuff as normal NPC seeded and as part of the normal economy. Instead, they reduced the value while increasing the work load.
Quote:However, as the goal of any private enterprise is to make money, it's a bit silly to suggest that the goal of the NEX store was not expressly to add value to the service CCP provides. Note that this holds true even if the NEX store was a completely misguided effort and has been a total failure. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't add value GÇö I'm saying that its value is not to generate income, but to reduce liability. Given CCP's economic situation at the time, that was more valuable than income because they already had a very stablie income and what they needed the most was external funding. Large liabilities is a black mark towards obtaining that.
The reasoning behind the speculation is that, if it was to generate income, they would have followed the standard model for doing so: large volumes of purchases that are so small that cost is no longer a factor in the decision-making process.
Quote:In a mature economy this is largely irrelevant. In the real worldGǪ GǪbut this isn't a real-world economy, and in isn't mature in this field either. It's a game economy where this one item breaks every guiding design principle and every balancing mechanic there is. Had it followed the rules, the matureness of the economy might have mattered, but since it doesn't GÇö since it follows completely different rules GÇö it is not part of that economy.
Skydell wrote:It must be really hard for you Anti-Aurum people to keep a straight face with that great big ******* elephant in the room named Plex. Not really, no, since PLEX does something drastically different. Most notably, they do not remove gameplay and they are (or were, before the NeX), in fact, economy neutral. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Terajima Kazumi
EVE University Ivy League
50
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪand that would be fine if that was what they did. Instead, they took content that was slated for player industries and made them not-player-industries but they didn't actually drop the content itself. So what they did was compromise, then.
Tippia wrote: It would add at the very least the same value as having the items in the NeX (viz. having the items in the game) and would have added the value of a new industrial sector. No matter how small, the addition would have been bigger than it eventually was and it would have reused existing mechanics that are proven to work, rather than the completely unfinished NeX.
So if the reasoning was that it wouldn't have added any value, they wouldn't have bothered with the NeX at all and just released the stuff as normal NPC seeded and as part of the normal economy. Instead, they reduced the value while increasing the work load.
I misspoke a bit here. It's true that the items add the same value to the service CCP provides either way (actually, as NEX items they add less value since players cannot enjoy creating the items via industry) but CCP can potentially increase revenue to a greater degree via NEX store transactions than they would have otherwise (by increasing the number of active subscribers).
Tippia wrote: I'm not suggesting that it doesn't add value GÇö I'm saying that its value is not to generate income, but to reduce liability. Given CCP's economic situation at the time, that was more valuable than income because they already had a very stablie income and what they needed the most was external funding. Large liabilities is a black mark towards obtaining that.
I'm sorry, but I do not follow the reasoning here.
Tippia wrote: GǪbut this isn't a real-world economy, and in isn't mature in this field either. It's a game economy where this one item breaks every guiding design principle and every balancing mechanic there is. Had it followed the rules, the matureness of the economy might have mattered, but since it doesn't GÇö since it follows completely different rules GÇö it is not part of that economy.
Are you suggesting that the NEX items had such great potential to break the game's economy? They obviously have not done that, nor do I think anyone expected that they would prior to their release (at least not in their current capacity as mere vanity items). The NEX store was responsible for a speculative spike in the price of PLEX when the NEX store was announced, and may have some role in the continued rise in the price of PLEX, but beyond this, its role in the EVE economy is relegated merely to shifting ISK from wallet to wallet. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4220
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 01:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Terajima Kazumi wrote:So what they did was compromise, then. A compromise would have been to make it NPC seeded and then move to player construction, as they have with so many other items. This was something completely different.
Quote:I misspoke a bit here. It's true that the items add the same value to the service CCP provides either way (actually, as NEX items they add less value since players cannot enjoy creating the items via industry) but CCP can potentially increase revenue to a greater degree via NEX store transactions than they would have otherwise (by increasing the number of active subscribers). Ok, fair enough. That makes sense. I somehow doubt that they were going for that, though, since they quite deliberately chose to go for very low volume (since the chosen payment mechanic would have wreaked havoc with the in-game economy had it been combined with a high-volume option).
Quote:I'm sorry, but I do not follow the reasoning here. PLEX are a liability on the CCP balance sheet GÇö it's a contract for services paid for, but not yet rendered (30 days of server access). The NeX was a way to eliminate that liability by giving you something completely different and utterly worthless (in real-life terms) instead: 3,500 AUR. It's a PLEX sink that lets CCP not render the original service and instead just give you a couple of bytes in the DB.
Removing those GÇ£service not yet renderedGÇ¥ liabilities means their balance sheet looks better when they go to the bank/investors and ask for extensions on their loans or further funding for new projects: they still have (or had) a decently high, consistent income, and were developing new products that would pay themselves back SoonGäó (and diversifying the company, which always good for the investor's risk). Since the subscription income was already steady (but came in small increments), it wasn't as necessary to boost as the attractiveness to investors in the form of offering of low-risk / low-liability, nor did it serve the purpose of that kind of large capital injection.
Quote:Are you suggesting that the NEX items had such great potential to break the game's economy? They have the potential to break it completely, should CCP choose to go down that road. They probably won't, but the option is still there. It's a mechanism that could completely obsolete the market and the industry of the game GÇö hell, the IW Scorpion (which set off the whole d+¬b+ácle) did exactly that: it added minerals in the form of a ready-made ship without ever engaging the miners, the researchers, the builders, and the traders who are normally required to make that happen.
Even with the things that are now in the NeX, we still have a similar (but far smaller-scale) problem: this stuff exists outside of the normal economy. Its life cycle is completely different to everything else in the game, and any interaction with the normal economy is largely accidental and incidental. It doesn't follow the resource limitations and resource destruction balancing mechanics of everything else, and therefore isn't subject to the same supply and demand as the rest of the game. That's what I mean by it breaking the design principles and balancing mechanics of the economy. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2686
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 01:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Reason why the IW scorpion debacle started was with limitations with the store back then Why it couldnt issue out stuff that required the ship item to turn in liek the Loyalty point store is beyind me.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4221
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Posted - 2012.01.02 01:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Reason why the IW scorpion debacle started was with limitations with the store back then Why it couldnt issue out stuff that required the ship item to turn in liek the Loyalty point store is beyind me. It remains a mystery to this dayGǪ
But even if that's ever fixed, it is still an illustration of how the NeX has the potential and ability to break pretty much everything in industrial/economy side of the game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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