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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
645
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Posted - 2012.01.02 01:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Would you still want it removed if it could buy time a week at a time instead and was just as tradeable as a plex?
Here's the thing, Nova, I have never wanted it removed. And I'm not alone. So take that line above and edit it to be less prejudicial.
But I would like to see items worth buying in it. And a station to walk around in to show it off.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2686
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 01:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Reason why the IW scorpion debacle started was with limitations with the store back then Why it couldnt issue out stuff that required the ship item to turn in liek the Loyalty point store is beyind me. It remains a mystery to this dayGǪ But even if that's ever fixed, it is still an illustration of how the NeX has the potential and ability to break pretty much everything in industrial/economy side of the game.
However anything else in the game can be made in a manner of buff or nerf to the point of breaking the game as well.
One example I know alot of players who'd quit if they made all of eve null sec.
Or all of eve high sec.
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Terajima Kazumi
EVE University Ivy League
50
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Posted - 2012.01.02 01:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[PLEX are a liability on the CCP balance sheet GÇö it's a contract for services paid for, but not yet rendered (30 days of server access). The NeX was a way to eliminate that liability by giving you something completely different and utterly worthless (in real-life terms) instead: 3,500 AUR. It's a PLEX sink that lets CCP not render the original service and instead just give you a couple of bytes in the DB.
Removing those GÇ£service not yet renderedGÇ¥ liabilities means their balance sheet looks better when they go to the bank/investors and ask for extensions on their loans or further funding for new projects: they still have (or had) a decently high, consistent income, and were developing new products that would pay themselves back SoonGäó (and diversifying the company, which always good for the investor's risk). Since the subscription income was already steady (but came in small increments), it wasn't as necessary to boost as the attractiveness to investors in the form of offering of low-risk / low-liability, nor did it serve the purpose of that kind of large capital injection. This is certainly true, but it's worth considering that if the NEX store doesn't increase demand for new PLEX, then it probably does't coax players into redeeming existing PLEX for Aurum either.
Tippia wrote:They have the potential to break it completely, should CCP choose to go down that road. They probably won't, but the option is still there. It's a mechanism that could completely obsolete the market and the industry of the game GÇö hell, the IW Scorpion (which set off the whole d+¬b+ácle) did exactly that: it added minerals in the form of a ready-made ship without ever engaging the miners, the researchers, the builders, and the traders who are normally required to make that happen.
Even with the things that are now in the NeX, we still have a similar (but far smaller-scale) problem: this stuff exists outside of the normal economy. Its life cycle is completely different to everything else in the game, and any interaction with the normal economy is largely accidental and incidental. It doesn't follow the resource limitations and resource destruction balancing mechanics of everything else, and therefore isn't subject to the same supply and demand as the rest of the game. That's what I mean by it breaking the design principles and balancing mechanics of the economy. I'm not arguing for what could be, but for what is. There are infinitely many ways that CCP could break the economy, and we should challenge CCP whenever they come up with such an idea. The IW Scorpion was such an idea, and I object to it vehemently.
By contrast, the vanity items in the NEX store are almost completely decoupled from the economy, their aforementioned ability to influence PLEX prices and move ISK aside. As implemented, their impact on the economy is negligible. You can certainly argue with validity that if the NEX items were implemented as player-manufactured items that they would add to the economy, but to argue that they disrupt the economy in any meaningful way is a rather tenuous assertion. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4221
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Posted - 2012.01.02 02:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:However anything else in the game can be made in a manner of buff or nerf to the point of breaking the game as well.
One example I know alot of players who'd quit if they made all of eve null sec. There's a pretty significant difference between making the game undesirable for some players and breaking game mechanics (in this case, removing all checks and balances that determine the supply and demand of items in the economy). So we're talking about vastly different types of GÇ£breakingGÇ¥ things here.
Terajima Kazumi wrote:By contrast, the vanity items in the NEX store are almost completely decoupled from the economy, their aforementioned ability to influence PLEX prices and move ISK aside. As implemented, their impact on the economy is negligible. You can certainly argue with validity that if the NEX items were implemented as player-manufactured items that they would add to the economy, but to argue that they disrupt the economy in any meaningful way is a rather tenuous assertion. But that's not the argument GÇö it's that the NeX items can only exist through the use of out-of-game means and that they therefore do not follow the rules and design principles of the game economy.
Whether or not they disrupt the economy depends on what the NeX allows you to buy, but the fact that they don't adhere to those principles means that it disruptive potential is that much larger. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2686
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Posted - 2012.01.02 02:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hmm True. Either way they both wind up to the same conclusions end of the game.
At least CCP adverted distaster by sticking to the promise of not giving a game advantage to anyone.
Which is where your complaint about the store hits sticky paper at least on that line. However then again plex is already on that line, a player could essentially buy thier way to an advantage.
So I think instead of murking up the water lets draw a firm line we can possibly agree on what is allowable for MT and what isnt.
So heres my never in MT list.
1 Ships 2 Modules 3 Ammo 4 Implants 5 Player Attributes 6 Items usually sold by other players 7 Infrastructure 8 Name Changes 9 Character History Wipes 10 Tools that make the game easier or advantaged 11 Perks to increase income of anything 12 Skill Points
My maybe MT list 1 Co-existing NPC source sold tems (example various blueprints and possible skill books)
My MT okay with it list.
1 Clothing 2 Special Looking features such as ship paint jobs. 3 Player Looks even race changes.
I am just basically listing items and not going into interation on how I see how to fix the store for your view points and I am quite sure you read them already. (I wished I can get a few others but other than the burn and revert back to pre incarna characters and your position are the only two I've seen so far) that would make this discussion a bit too much of an FnI feature.
I would like to see your list of allowed and not allowed MT stuff though.
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Terajima Kazumi
EVE University Ivy League
50
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Posted - 2012.01.02 02:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whether or not they disrupt the economy depends on what the NeX allows you to buy, but the fact that they don't adhere to those principles means that it disruptive potential is that much larger. Again, there are infinitely many ways CCP can potentially wreak havoc on the economy. I agree that as the NEX store grows it has the potential to cause significant damage to the economy, but it also has potential for growth that isn't problematic. While it's a good idea to make sure CCP knows that we do not want the NEX store to impact the economy negatively, objecting to it entirely on the simple grounds that it has the potential to do so is rather absurd. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.01.02 05:54:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:What if a fish was called a cow? What if a door was called a pumpkin? What if a cow called a pumpkin?? That would make fish and doors the same species. |
Cipher Jones
296
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 08:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Quote:Eve is a sandbox, every item should be gettable by in-game means (barring special one-off unique stuff like the Alliance Tourney Rewards/Holiday pressies).
What NeX Store item isnt "gettable" by in game means? If you can name one I'll get a goonswarm federation tattoo on my ***** and biomass 9 toons.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1236
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Posted - 2012.01.02 08:39:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:Eve is a sandbox, every item should be gettable by in-game means (barring special one-off unique stuff like the Alliance Tourney Rewards/Holiday pressies). What NeX Store item isnt "gettable" by in game means? If you can name one I'll get a goonswarm federation tattoo on my ***** and biomass 9 toons.
yep... it is gettable by in-game means..
Otherwise scrap all loot, asteroids, everything .. because getting it is about the same as getting things in NeX.. you click, you click again and again. |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
581
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 09:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
Bischopt wrote:I'd rather see NeX and aurum removed completely.
Completely agree, replace with 3 things:
1 player made and destructible - e.g. Monocle that enhances an attribute like an implant
2 player made and corp awardable - e.g. Clothing that is designed and awarded to individuals for a fee, like medals
3 items wearable on rank replaced automatically on death - uniform or tattoo items for standing with NPC corp above 8 etc.
As far as the PLEX liability argument goes, remove PLEX as a destructible item and start trading in months of game time from your subscription queue? I'm happy with the current system for PLEX but there are other options that don't require Aurum/NeX. |
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Ocih
Space Mermaids
29
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Posted - 2012.01.02 09:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
If it did nothing else, it taught CCP how the portion of EVE that don't come here to **** on each others cornflakes feels.
So how does it feel to be held hostage, CCP? Sucks don't it? |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 09:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
Then it would be called micro plex? |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
182
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 11:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
What if cyanide was called chocolate would you eat it then? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4232
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 12:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:What NeX Store item isnt "gettable" by in game means? All of them. Without out-of-game means, they don't exist.
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Otherwise scrap all loot, asteroids, everything .. because getting it is about the same as getting things in NeX.. you click, you click again and again. No amount of click will create PLEX in-game, so no. They are not the same. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1168
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Posted - 2012.01.02 13:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
Skydell wrote:It must be really hard for you Anti-Aurum people to keep a straight face with that great big ******* elephant in the room named Plex.
You are falling to the same mistake that most pro-Aurum people make.
Its not about pay-to-win really. Ever since Eve online was launched there was advantage in paying extra to get an additional account and double the skill coverage, then add things that you need extra accounts for if you want to play "solo" / cyno, scouts, leadership characters etc etc. If any pay-to-win is your bag then frankly forget the PLEX elephant in the room - and rail against multiple accounts instead (but seeing as how these get ccp to double, treble and quad their income per veteran player - good luck with that.)
That PLEX enables pay to win isn't the point. It puts extra ISK into the sandbox that is used to buy things from other players and thereby potentially enrich their game. It benefits even players who do not isk/convert PLEX because it enables RL cash poor players to play and thus ensure a vibrant server population for everyone.
Say one of my wartargets blows $100 on PLEX and starts coming at my corp with a multi-billion isk officer-fit Bhaalgorn of doom that he has bought and assembled with parts bought with isk from other players. On one level you could say "omg pay to win its not fair rage quit!" but on the other - its content, its fun, its a huge ass pinata that we get to hunt and kill and once we blow it to hell it'll pay our war bills for the next couple of months. We'll be putting the bits on the market, other players get to bid for and compete against and the point is the whole deal is integrated with the sandbox.
This is why PLEX is acceptable.
NEX/AURUM does the opposite really. It removes player-led content from the game, cheapening industrial options - makes customization and detailing an "optional/vanity" thing rather than an intrinsic and interconnected part of the game, and additionally makes people question the value of their subscription payment since it no longer covers all eve content any more (reducing server population as we've seen). Subdividing the eve playing population between MT haves and have nots and excluding content we've long expected from the subscription model is not helping eve online survive.
So instead of PLEX my wartarget blows $100 on a monocle and pair of pants. He's now got a facial customization that wasn't made by players, that can't be destroyed by players, that didn't take any kind of industry to build and doesn't enrich anyone's eve experience at all really. The mook still can't afford ships, he's unlikely to fight and basically bought the stupid thing to troll on forums. And the irony is he hasn't really made ANY extra income for ccp because the aurum spend has replaced the PLEX/isk spend for a zero sum on ccp's copy book with a huge negative on fun and entertainment for other players.
And this is why NEX/AURUM is not acceptable.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Bischopt
Ice Fire Warriors
50
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 13:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: and additionally makes people question the value of their subscription payment since it no longer covers all eve content any more
^ CCP needs to read that.
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Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 13:53:00 -
[47] - Quote
PLEX DOES NOT ADD ISK TO THE GAME.
This is what I don't get about all the aurum haters. First of all it was about "no pay to win" then, since PLEX enables pay to win in a form, it's about "no in-game affecting items without player driven actions" but since that isn't going to happen and already exists in the form of things like PI CCs it moves to "no items without player driven actions" which fails for the same reasons.
CCP have disconnected items in the NEX store as far as they can without removing them from the market and having them only appear in character customisation regardless of the characters location. If they had done that as well then all the haters would be going on about why can't we buy them for ISK from other players?
So what if someone "blows $100 on a monocle and pair of pants"? What difference does it make to anyone, except that person, what they do with a vanity item? Why shouldn't I be able to pay for something that changes the appearance of my avatar?
On the issue of clothing being player made from BPOs/BPCs, does nobody else have an issue with turning billion+ isk genetic creations into tailors and seamstresses?
Yes, I approve of the use of the NEX store for any and all vanity items and No, I do not approve of the use of the NEX store for anything that creates an in-game effecting items. So trade ship + Aurum for ship with different skin = ok. Trade Aurum for ship with different skin = bad. The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/
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Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.02 13:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
Bischopt wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: and additionally makes people question the value of their subscription payment since it no longer covers all eve content any more ^ CCP needs to read that.
Except that since the items can be traded on the market you still have access to them. It just requires that someone has created them by the consumption of a PLEX. Just like PLEX can be traded on the market but you need someone to have purchased them first. The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/
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Bischopt
Ice Fire Warriors
50
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Posted - 2012.01.02 13:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:Bischopt wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: and additionally makes people question the value of their subscription payment since it no longer covers all eve content any more ^ CCP needs to read that. Except that since the items can be traded on the market you still have access to them. It just requires that someone has created them by the consumption of a PLEX. Just like PLEX can be traded on the market but you need someone to have purchased them first.
I'm well aware of this.
Someone is still required to pay for that content which lowers the value of subscription payments in general.
edit: PLEX is not content, it's just game time. There's a difference. |
Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 14:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Or increases it since you gain access to the outside payment only options without outside payment. The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
230
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Posted - 2012.01.02 14:04:00 -
[51] - Quote
You mean micro-plex like quite a few of us said would be a much better idea than introducing a 3rd currency, back when CCP first announced their intent? You mean micro-plex like CCP has said they will look into replacing Aurum with somewhere down the line?
As for removing NeX: Why?
It is there now so won't require much more dev time, plus it does neither harm nor good (albeit some bling-junkies use it) so it is on the whole a bad idea to remove it out of hand .. all we have to do is keep an eye on CCP in case they try to sneak some gold ammo onto the shelves.
Besides, I am hopeful that we shall one day be able to buy plastic surgery (Char. customizer) in the Nex .. Goddess knows there are some around here who could use some work done! |
Bischopt
Ice Fire Warriors
50
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 14:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:Or increases it since you gain access to the outside payment only options without outside payment.
We are still left in a situation where subscription payments cannot purchase some content, no matter what. Somebody always has to pay separately for said content. An individual being able to buy that content ingame from another player is still worse than having that content in the game without any outside payment in the first place.
The subscription payment should cover the entire game, not some of it. Right now we have an area of content that we can only be accessed via payments that are not related to game time.
I could do a yo dawg joke about paying while you pay but I'm afraid that meme is overused already. |
Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 14:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
They can purchase it, via market, but the content cannot be generated without additional money being paid somewhere at some point.
That is a big difference. Especially since even if no-one is buying and listing the NEX item you want on the market you can still access it through grinding the isk, purchasing a PLEX (or more depending on item) and creating it yourself.
So, yes, you do have access to all the content with a normal subscription payment.
Unless you believe that no-one should use anything that they don't create themselves and I'm sure that that is a view you don't hold. The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1171
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 14:48:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:They can purchase it, via market, but the content cannot be generated without additional money being paid somewhere at some point.
That is a big difference. Especially since even if no-one is buying and listing the NEX item you want on the market you can still access it through grinding the isk, purchasing a PLEX (or more depending on item) and creating it yourself.
So, yes, you do have access to all the content with a normal subscription payment.
Unless you believe that no-one should use anything that they don't create themselves and I'm sure that that is a view you don't hold.
You are missing the point. I believe nobody should use anything that isn't created by player industry or openly sold for isk by appropriate ingame npc corporations. You conveniently seem to have skipped the meat of my earlier post talking about how NeX/Aurum removes player interaction from the sandbox also.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4233
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 14:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:So, yes, you do have access to all the content with a normal subscription payment. GǪexcept that some content still requires payments outside of the subscriptions to be made. So no matter how much you twist and turn, the game has content that the normal subscriptions don't give access to. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1171
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 14:55:00 -
[56] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:Bischopt wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: and additionally makes people question the value of their subscription payment since it no longer covers all eve content any more ^ CCP needs to read that. Except that since the items can be traded on the market you still have access to them. It just requires that someone has created them by the consumption of a PLEX. Just like PLEX can be traded on the market but you need someone to have purchased them first.
Your argument does nothing to counter the suggestion that the perception of getting less for our subscription payment means less subscriptions overall.
I said that subdividing content between MT and subscription means that people question the value of the subscription. And speaking personally since the introduction of the NeX/Aurum store I've dropped 2 extra accounts. Thats minus $30 dollars a month (every month) on the CCP balance sheet or around $150 to this date that they lost due to the cheapening of content I was interested in through the NeX/Aurum system that I perceive has removed content from the game.
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one making this assessment.
At the end of the day I'm convinced that MT are a net negative to CCP's income. Of course until (and if) CCP take the extraordinary step of opening up and letting us see the figures for how much NeX stuff they sold (for actual $ rather than giveaways) against how the projected subscriptions developed we'll be arguing without much fact.
But I'm guessing we can agree a 180 turnaround on corporate direction added to absolute apparent terror of mentioning anything NeX/Aurum related by developers indicates the fiscal reality behind the scenes.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1171
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 14:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:So, yes, you do have access to all the content with a normal subscription payment.
Simply untrue. We have absolutely no access to the industrial side of production behind these items. No players get to research bpos, access exploration content or get involved in business concepts involving this content. The only way this "content" enters the game is either by aurum giveaways or somebody needing to access the MT model for the virtual goods. This is new content that players cannot manufacture and thats poison to a player led economic sandbox game like Eve Online.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 15:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
It doesn't remove player interaction, it fails to add player interaction in certain areas which is massively different.
Pre NEX store there was no player interaction involved in player clothing. You just picked what you wanted from the character customization screen and were done.
Post NEX store there is no player interaction involved (necessarily) in the creation of certain items of player clothing but there is player interaction in the trading of those items.
That CCP didn't add as much interaction as was possible in all areas of a feature is correct. That they removed interaction by their implementation of this feature is plainly false.
I almost agree with your belief but my view on it is slightly different. I believe that nobody should use anything that has an in-game effect that isn't created by player industry. Hell, the only thing I find acceptable to be sold via NPC is skillbooks/BPOs.
PI CCs? Should have BPOs seeded instead of the actual item. For example.
The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/
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Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2012.01.02 15:05:00 -
[59] - Quote
Bischopt wrote:I'd rather see NeX and aurum removed completely.
I agree, they need to just drop them. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1171
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 15:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote: As for removing NeX: Why?
Symbolize the return of customization content to the player realm. Remove NeX and put the products into appropriate faction loyalty point stores and CCP will win a huge amount of kudos and respect from not just Eve Players but large sections of the gaming world.
Hirana Yoshida wrote:It is there now so won't require much more dev time, plus it does neither harm nor good (albeit some bling-junkies use it) so it is on the whole a bad idea to remove it out of hand .. all we have to do is keep an eye on CCP in case they try to sneak some gold ammo onto the shelves.
Your argument really doesn't follow. Something that annoys and irritates large segments of your subscriber base whose very existence is an affront to the player led industrial concept of the gameworld and makes a net loss on income (guessing from CCP actions admittedly) - NeX is poorly programmed, shows no respect for the prime fiction, has a terrible interface and frankly wants scrapping. Since CCP monocle disappeared from the forums I haven't heard a single CCP developer defend it.
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Besides, I am hopeful that we shall one day be able to buy plastic surgery (Char. customizer) in the Nex .. Goddess knows there are some around here who could use some work done!
This is why the NeX needs to go. It poisons future content. What you are talking about is a plastic surgery lab that wanted to be a system you could buy for isk in "establishments" bought, run and priced by players for players. Content through incarna. By making the assumption that all incarna = NeX you graphically demonstrate why Incarna was an epic fail.
If you want a player service to allow other players to gain access to body reconstruction then propose it as a player made system. We're not likely to see any iteration on incarna now for years I expect, but I see no reason why they couldn't program a pos module or system that lets players go there and gain a recustomization for isk (and appropriate input costs owner-side) and give people another potential business avenue. Plenty of players would enjoy running Hisec plastic surgery clinics for isk. Thats called broadening the game world and player possibility.
Not further restricting it behind the NeX abortion and the embarrassment of last year.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
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