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Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.02 15:10:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lauren Hellfury wrote:So, yes, you do have access to all the content with a normal subscription payment.
Simply untrue. We have absolutely no access to the industrial side of production behind these items. No players get to research bpos, access exploration content or get involved in business concepts involving this content. The only way this "content" enters the game is either by aurum giveaways or somebody needing to access the MT model for the virtual goods. This is new content that players cannot manufacture and thats poison to a player led economic sandbox game like Eve Online.
None of what you state exists. Therefore there is nothing that is being denied. These may be things that you wish existed but to say that you can access those things by paying additional money is blatantly false. It wouldn't matter how much money I threw at CCP there is no way I can do any of what you state whilst others cannot.
Remember that we are also talking about vanity items. Things that have no impact on the game at all. How does my avatar wearing an eye implant have any impact on the game? Hell, my avatar itself has no impact on the game. It matters not a jot whether I have blonde hair, whether I have blue eyes, whether I am shorter than average, whether I am more muscular than average or more fat than average, whether I am wearing trousers or a skirt, whether I have a tattoo or a scar, whether I wear earrings or have a nose stud. It doesn't even matter what race or bloodline I am, whether I am male or female.
So why on earth would it matter if I have a non-standard item of clothing on my avatar or not?
IF CCP were to introduce something that did have an impact on the game through the NEX store then that is a completely different issue and, truth be told, you wouldn't even see me bitching about it on the forums because I'd have already walked away. The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4233
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Posted - 2012.01.02 15:16:00 -
[62] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:None of what you state exists. Therefore there is nothing that is being denied. The things don't exist because they are being denied by the NeX. As long as the NeX exist, those things will not be added to the game. CCP chose to deny the game more gameplay in favour of a failed attempt at introducing MT through a failed attempt at replicating existing store mechanics.
Quote:Remember that we are also talking about vanity items. Doesn't matter. The fact remains: they denied the players gameplay that had been promised for many years. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1171
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Posted - 2012.01.02 15:16:00 -
[63] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:It doesn't remove player interaction, it fails to add player interaction in certain areas which is massively different. Pre NEX store there was no player interaction involved in player clothing. You just picked what you wanted from the character customization screen and were done.
Pre NeX we were told by CCP that Incarna would have establishments where players set up shops and sold clothing and fashions to other players. The fact these promises were broken so dramatically by NeXCarna fiasco is not something that should be forgotten. Failing to add promised player interaction is a BAD THING.
Lauren Hellfury wrote:Post NEX store there is no player interaction involved (necessarily) in the creation of certain items of player clothing but there is player interaction in the trading of those items.
The price is fixed, there is no way a player can get a better input price, they simply need to sell low (and lower) to hope somebody buys it. Sure you can argue that buying NeX goods from the market is "interaction" but you know the point that is being made - it is not traditional industry in Eve online and it irritates because we were promised that Incarna would be about station-side industry and player interaction at all levels of the new content.
Lauren Hellfury wrote:That CCP didn't add as much interaction as was possible in all areas of a feature is correct. That they removed interaction by their implementation of this feature is plainly false.
The fact the NeX store exists and people are talking about future content being delivered in this medium makes the point clearly true. Because NeX exists there is a danger that ship skins, corp logos, additional customization will be delivered as a MT via NeX and thus rob the game from future player interaction at each turn. This is the danger of NeX and its why people are very ill-advised to play quisling to this creeping corruption of the eve-online sandbox.
Lauren Hellfury wrote:I almost agree with your belief but my view on it is slightly different. I believe that nobody should use anything that has an in-game effect that isn't created by player industry. Hell, the only thing I find acceptable to be sold via NPC is skillbooks/BPOs. PI CCs? Should have BPOs seeded instead of the actual item. For example.
In an ideal world yes - everything should be produceable through player industry - everything. Some things like skillbooks etc should have npc volume production as a safeguard but I'd like to see bpos even for the skillbooks so players could potentially compete with the npcs on the items.
Of course this point (on which we appear to agree) is completely the opposite direction to NeX so I hope you'll join me in calling for its removal :)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1171
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Posted - 2012.01.02 15:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
Lauren Hellfury wrote:Remember that we are also talking about vanity items. Things that have no impact on the game at all. How does my avatar wearing an eye implant have any impact on the game? Hell, my avatar itself has no impact on the game. It matters not a jot whether I have blonde hair, whether I have blue eyes, whether I am shorter than average, whether I am more muscular than average or more fat than average, whether I am wearing trousers or a skirt, whether I have a tattoo or a scar, whether I wear earrings or have a nose stud. It doesn't even matter what race or bloodline I am, whether I am male or female.
Well ironically I have to say that as a CEO of a roleplaying corporation I have in the past refused the application of people with excessively ridiculous avatars. (also people with stupid names). Being able to put together a decent looking avatar shows you have a certain approach to the game that works for a roleplay corp. There is also a fair degree of evidence to the effect that certain avatar styles are good for edgy scamming and inflitration. So its not accurate to say that avatars have no effect on what is essentially a social game.
Of course there are some other roleplay corporations that play a militarist slant on the eve background and feel their characters should look like they are wearing uniforms. Those guys now need to consider purchasing the uniform lines from NeX because its needed for their roleplay because its a bit silly for jack-booted caldari squareheads to be dressed in casuals when they are roleplaying Heth's stormtroopers.
Look and style does have an impact on the game and I really oppose this notion that "vanity" as a category excuses microtransactions. A question I always ask people on your side of the fence is would you be good with engine trails being enabled at 1000 aurum per ship? That really is content that doesn't have an effect on the game, doesn't change your stats, doesn't do anything except "look cool" - what IS the difference between that and having a nice hat for your avatar end of the day?
Lauren Hellfury wrote:IF CCP were to introduce something that did have an impact on the game through the NEX store then that is a completely different issue and, truth be told, you wouldn't even see me bitching about it on the forums because I'd have already walked away.
So again ... engine trails ? NeX store? Would that be okay with you ?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.02 16:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Just to set myself up nicely for you....
Engine trails as NEX items on a per ship basis: Wouldn't overly bother me one way or the other. Although it is now a non-issue. There was a sig that someone had on the old forums which was a satirical look at the NEX store featuring a rifter hull (or derivative, I remember not) that had engine trails, skin etc with AUR prices. The only thing that I would have strongly objected to in it was the ammo.
I'll happily admit that the high price of the "vanity" items (i'll use quotes to acknowledge that for some they aren't quite as vanity related as for others) isn't exactly helpful for those of a more RP bent. When I started playing Eve almost 4 years ago (noob I know) I actually approached the character generation from an RPG point of view and I think it's a shame that the RP thing is not something that I've actively pursued since then.
The biggest thing that CCP could do to increase my RPness would be to get incarna fully launched. I have a collection of clothing on all characters from the NEX store ready to roll with that intent. Lauren has her business outfits, general casual outfits and combat/military orientated ones already lined up and i've screenies. Hell there was even an idea kicked around on the MD board about a business venture orientated around providing companions dressed in suitable attire for accompanying you to various meetings. I'd use that.
I've even tried to keep a theme running with the characters that I have and dress them to that theme and in a way that you should believe that they do actually check a mirror before leaving the house. Please, do a full body preview on me. Also check Wilhelmina Harker and Sytoru Hiroshyma (hopefully he's stopped showing with a jacket on). My CEO and pure combat characters respectively. All are themed and all acutally utilise the NEX items in achieving that theme.
The bit I strongly object to in all this is that the NEX store/Aurum should be stripped entirely from the game. There is so much that it could be and I don't want to see it all chucked away.
Then again from an RP angle, as I said before in passing, I have a bit of an issue with multi-billion isk genetic creations being deployed as tailors. Could the NEX store be improved? Certainly. Rather than bashing our heads on each other what improvements do I think that they could make?
For a start I will say that I believe that there is room for the current NEX only clothing options. Could other methods of getting clothing options be introduced? Certainly and I think your comment about moving the military uniforms to relevant LP stores is a good one. As a side issue I'd like awarded medals to show up in the character customisation as well both player corp. issued ones and those that would go with the rank achieved in FW.
It's kinda similar to the "tiers" that CCP envisaged with the NEX store. Top tier is the designer stuff that is only available directly from the NEX store, the entry tier could easily be player created items from a more usual manufacturing approach possibly involving PI to an extent rather than from the ship/module building angle.
For me anything like this that is player created needs to be real low entry point stuff. It should be a minor sideline rather than a main theme because of my whole issue with tailors in space. The Full Pocket Aggro blog:-á http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
230
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Posted - 2012.01.02 16:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:..... Replies in no particular order: All that needs be done to appease the wanna-be tailors is to have the items be player made and then use the NeX as a central outlet and then either swapping aurum out for micro-plex (as mentioned during Dec. meet I believe) or make aurum usable in the regular market. Nex itself is perfectly fine, it is just a bloody store for Goddess sake. The problem is aurum and its cul-de-sac implementation that makes any money exchanged worthless outside that one store ..
Don't see how one can say the NeX is disrespect for PF. If they had squandered time with what people were wearing when they wrote the PF I wouldn't be here that's for damn sure, I am not really sure why the absence of something in the PF should automatically make it a heresy to implement, seems like a rather large obstacle to development of game if it was so.
We forced them to put everything not space related on the back-burner. Establishments, however awesome they might have been, were unfortunately part of their WiS concept and as such clumped together with all the other stuff people moaned about. Optimal solution would have been to do them first and have had all the vanity crap be player designed/made/sold .. problem of course would be that it would probably have to be ISK based which means a staggering amount of additional work to staunch the flow of ISK into the system .. because what is the point of designer jeans if anyone can/will afford them?
Who made the assumption that Incarna = Nex? Certainly not I. What Nex is as far as I see it, is a part of the groundwork for Dust514 (F2P) and a test balloon for WoD. The only relation to Incarna is the cosmetic side.
In short: NeX is fine (read: inconsequential) and can be put to good use for corporate uniforms and ship paint-jobs, whereas Aurum is a piece of **** with no redeeming features and no function. |
FireSplitter
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.01.02 16:53:00 -
[67] - Quote
And then all the steps will be completed and EVE-online will have a fully functional Item Mall (now it is 90%), just like any other F2P game out there.
You are telling me that NEX has no effect? Here (http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility - forum bugs) is the effect. Some CCP employes have felt that too.
Any type of Item Mall is a poison to a sandbox. Already EVE is considered a game with micro-transactions and/or F2P. It does not mater what YOU think, but what other see. Item Mall was created to bring money to CCP, it does not do that currently but in the future it will be fixed.
NEX store should be removed completely. I agree with Jade Constantine.
EVE is no test dummy for any other game? or is it? I should not be! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4247
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 17:02:00 -
[68] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:All that needs be done to appease the wanna-be tailors is to have the items be player made and then use the NeX as a central outlet GǪor just remove the NeX since there already is far more efficient, far better working, and far more full-featured central outlets that do the same thing only infinitely better, and since the NeX isn't even completed yet GÇö it serves no useful purpose whatsoever and is just dead code.
Quote:Nex itself is perfectly fine, it is just a bloody store for Goddess sake. GǪand that's why it's not perfectly fine: because it doesn't do anything that can't be done far better through other means. It's just one more useless thing to keep track of for no good reason. Everything it does can be done through the existing stores. As long as it exists, it acts as a stop-block for adding relevant gameplay to the game (a far from inconsequential problem).
Quote:Who made the assumption that Incarna = Nex? Quite a lot of WiS proponents, who treat any suggestion that the NeX can (and should) be excised from the game without any consequence as a direct attack on the entire WiS concept. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
19
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Posted - 2012.01.02 17:22:00 -
[69] - Quote
"Can of Worms," "Pandoras Box" debate; nothing good can come of this.
Tippia and others like him will never change their minds, and neither will the other side in all this. Talking about what could and couldn't be in NeX is a bad idea; it propagates the possibility that MT for in-game advantage is still a possibility. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 17:35:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: and additionally makes people question the value of their subscription payment since it no longer covers all eve content any more
^ This here is an excellent point.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
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Posted - 2012.01.02 17:49:00 -
[71] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:"Can of Worms," "Pandoras Box" debate; nothing good can come of this. Tippia and others like him will never change their minds, and neither will the other side in all this. Talking about what could and couldn't be in NeX is a bad idea; it propagates the possibility that MT for in-game advantage is still a possibility.
I would like to call the above statement a bit ignorant, to have this debate is a great way to understand the fustration behind the NeX, both Jade and Tippia have excellente convayance of the disdain for the store. Its the idiots that just say "Burn the Store Down" that have little good and are not contributing at all.
Well after reading the replies from both Tippia and Jade I think they are on two different sides of the same coin. Though I would love to see sensible the reasoning behind the anti-barbie brigade which wants to uninstall the entire expansion.
Jade, is bringing up an angle of players being cheated overall and I dont think arguging with here on any level of the store's interation would satisfy as she would rather see the entirety of the NeX merged into the game by ingame only means which I ultimately think is a bad way to justiry the development costs, recovery of time spent will take MUCH longer.
At least CCP didn't decide to start segregating subscriptions like some other games have awfully done in the past which was to go with like Free, Subscription and Subscriptoin plus. This is a very valid concern none the less but thats Jades point.
Tippia however wants player involvement with the store it may be possible to rework the store into her favor at least into a hybrid system where MT and ingame means would be possible to get the same item and wants more than just one way of getting said item outside of market and buy which would elevate most of the nex items into a catagory beyond the plex.
Bottom Line Tippia seems to account the NeX as a missed oppertunity for ccp to increase income while increasing game play value for as it stands now NeX doesnt add gameplay value that much as the income it generates.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
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Posted - 2012.01.02 17:52:00 -
[72] - Quote
A new questions for Jade and Tippia since they the only ones not frothing from the mouth in getting rid of the store.
What if the clothing items where available though both ingame and currency avenues? LP may take to long to grind for and players want the instant satisfaction where avaialble and plausible. (as I see no there is no need for non military/ non professional clothes to be in the LP store, yet) where the prices in the NeX are in a way arbitarly competitive against the LP store? (basically low enough MT price that it may consider being bought verses the time it would normally need to grind and get standings needed in the LP store to obtain the outfit)
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Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
354
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Posted - 2012.01.02 18:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:A new questions for Jade and Tippia since they the only ones not frothing from the mouth in getting rid of the store.
What if the clothing items where available though both ingame and currency avenues? LP may take to long to grind for and players want the instant satisfaction where avaialble and plausible. (as I see no there is no need for non military/ non professional clothes to be in the LP store, yet) where the prices in the NeX are in a way arbitarly competitive against the LP store? (basically low enough MT price that it may consider being bought verses the time it would normally need to grind and get standings needed in the LP store to obtain the outfit) To be fair, once things are seeded it doesn't take many minutes for players to start spending their saved up LP if they can get a decent convertion ratio.
The casual clothing items can simply be BPCs in loot drops, no need to have them in any stores.
I don't see a need for the NeX at all if the above is done rightGäó. Dominique Vasilkovsky.....: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dominique_Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana...............: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Mashie_Saldana Monica Foulkes...............: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Monica_Foulkes |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
19
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Posted - 2012.01.02 18:06:00 -
[74] - Quote
I think you're mistaking Tippias interest in the NeX. From what I recall He's in with the burn the store down crowd, while being slightly more articulate obout it. Jade is much the same, if from a different perspective I think.
I'm sure you were here during the original forum wars regarding NeX, MT, and certain other aspects of the "Cosmetic Item" fiasco. The Pandoras Box has already been opened; which is why it has watered down to the stage it is in now, where mere mention of it doesn't any longer result in a mass exodus of EVE players toting their subscriptions out the door.
Tippia has at least accepted that NeX is here, if not bothered to give it any validity by making purchases of such items off the market or NeX. Jade I don't really know, and can't say I have any intuition as to his/her motivations or position aside from obvious statements here.
Honestly, I don't really read much more than a few lines of either sides arguments, as they tend to be repetitous and inflexible. That effectively makes for much more pages of worthless reiteration of the same points than I'd care to read in the same thread. |
Myxx
Atropos Group Blood Right
474
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Posted - 2012.01.02 18:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
Bischopt wrote:I'd rather see NeX and aurum removed completely. This. A billion times over. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
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Posted - 2012.01.02 18:18:00 -
[76] - Quote
Anyways going back to op and going to throw out alot more questions, the forum ate my first edit though bleh ><.
Thank you all for keeping the conversation going.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4250
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Posted - 2012.01.02 18:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:What if the clothing items where available though both ingame and currency avenues? Then one would supersede the other and make it pointless. The NeX would either cap what player could do, making their input largely irrelevant, or players would make the NeX completely redundant.
Only one is needed because it will serve all purposes, and of the two, the NeX is the only one to not create any kind of gameplay. In your parallel to the LP stores, if you don't want to grind and want the instant satisfaction, you buy it off the market; if you can bear the grind, you do it yourself (or sell on the market to the impatient). Making one outlet compete against the other serves no purpose other than to ruin the player-generated side of the market.
Oh, andGǪQuote:Bottom Line Tippia seems to account the NeX as a missed oppertunity for ccp to increase income while increasing game play value for as it stands now NeX doesnt add gameplay value that much as the income it generates. No. I see the NeX as an abomination that couldn't even have been aborted and used for stem cell research, because no-one with any sense would want to touch the stuff with a 10' pole. It serves no purpose for the game GÇö it is merely a book-keeping trick for the CCP accountants, and we have to pay for that through the loss of gameplay. It is not, nor will it ever be, needed for anything in EVE. Everything it does (which is very very little, since it never left early-alpha stage) can be done better through existing means. Investing more development time into it would be retarded since that development time is better invested in delivering the exact same thing through actual gameplay. Improving the NeX so it can do more is equally wasted GÇö the same effort can be put into the existing store mechanics and make them work even better.
It is a missed opportunity in much the same way as blowing your foot off with a shotgun is a missed opportunity for eating ice cream: it is completely unrelated; it only cripples you and does nothing to further the actual goal. I suppose you might be referring to the comments I made about how it fails to work as an MT shop, but that's not because I would like to have seen such a shop GÇö it's just an explanation why making money was never a goal for the NeX.
The NeX was an experiment that failed in every conceivable way to fulfil any of its imaginable purposes. There is nothing there to salvage, and removing it can only ever have positive effects. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 18:39:00 -
[78] - Quote
Still doens't pay for the medical bill which brought it into the world. Then post birth therapy.
The reason why to include both sources if you're not understanding what I am getting at is that what if the ingame means are a bit too hard to get for example you're a gallante loyalist but you want a Amarrian uniform? MT could easily serve as the short cut or you can grind out the money or you can actually try to grind out the standigns then the LP.
And if you really are with the burn the store down, stop mentioning stolen game play, that is suggestion in itself that there is something to be gained there.
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FireSplitter
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.01.02 18:54:00 -
[79] - Quote
Then what about the sandbox concept? The concept which states that you build the world around you?
Yeah, i am one of the idiots (as you called us) who wants the store burned down. It has no place in a game like EVE. There is really nothing good about it.
Your "good example" it is actually a bad example. I can't have...so i will go to shop and buy it. BLING! You no see?? It gives you an unfair advantage! Let's say my goal is to have the coolest stuff, you bought that with money! |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 18:58:00 -
[80] - Quote
FireSplitter wrote:Then what about the sandbox concept? The concept which states that you build the world around you?
Yeah, i am one of the idiots (as you called us) who wants the store burned down. It has no place in a game like EVE. There is really nothing good about it.
Your "good example" it is actually a bad example. I can't have...so i will go to shop and buy it. BLING! You no see?? It gives you an unfair advantage! Let's say my goal is to have the coolest stuff, you bought that with money!
I didnt call it a good example I was just demonstrating as to how the two can compete.
It doesnt stop idiots in real life buying fake uniforms and try to pass themselves off as posers instead of getting it the hard way.
Not everyone plays fair in the sandbox anyways you may have a plastic shovel the guy next to you migtht have a metal shovel and mr moneybags brings in a bulldozer.
Either way this is the trap that Plex Falls into. Plex currenlty easily allows you to bling your way out of everything as long as the plex economy holds out, even with the the store removed and clothes an ingame thing only plex just reaccomplished this again buy plexing your way though life. So its a poor argument verses the my money for the subscription isnt good enough case.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
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Posted - 2012.01.02 19:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
OP updated read it and digest if need.
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Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
100
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Posted - 2012.01.02 19:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
I should point out at this stage that the NEX items themselves actually are in violation of one of the core mechanics of the Eve economy and universe:
- Anything and everything you own can be destroyed.
This is an incredibly important mechanic to the Eve economy as it ensures that there's always a constant demand for items as well and making sure there's sinks to stop rampant inflation.
NEX items are indestructable when they're being worn, and they're the only indestructable items a player can own in the entire game.
I was flabbergasted when CCP decided that was the option they were going to use. I understand why (imagine the complaints when people lose items they've paid lots of RL money for to ganks) but that's mearly a result of forcing a system into the game which is the antithesis of the rest of it.
At the very least, igorning the fact they can only be bought with RL money (which is wrong on many levels), the items should have been destructable but extremely cheap (which is the better business move as well).
Edit: As for PLEX, yes, it's a RL transaction, but it doesn't generate anything in game. Sure, it's sold on the markets for ISK (and some people treat it like buying ISK), but the fact remains that someone, somewhere in EVE, had to play the game to create the ISK (mining, missioning etc) in order to buy the PLEX. Which has been said hundreds of times before. The NEX items on the other hand skip that concept entirely. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
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Posted - 2012.01.02 19:25:00 -
[83] - Quote
Well currently there isnt a closest where you can save your outfits so I can see this being VERY annoying having to put clothes back on every time you die. Probably the reason why the charged 10x over regular prices and made them non destructable.
Further interation that all forms of item injection facuets are nearly the same as the PL-EX. Press button generate item. That item came form technically nowhere, its not like your corporate taxes are going to pay for the other guys mission rewards? Sales taxes definetly cant covered all of the operating costs of replacing ibis's every day. There is that big black beyond the magic hole area where materials come from that nobody seems to contribue back into.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1173
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Posted - 2012.01.02 19:33:00 -
[84] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Well currently there isnt a closest where you can save your outfits so I can see this being VERY annoying having to put clothes back on every time you die. Probably the reason why the charged 10x over regular prices and made them non destructable.
I might say it would be "very annoying" to need to acquire and replace the full halo set I prefer to use in combat everytime I "die" but needing to do that is the way of eve risk vs reward. The fact NeX items were made indestructable is an insult and obscenity really and is something I lay squarely at the feet of the madness that infected ccp last year. I consider indestructible items of clothing an absurdity when player-acquired implants are not indestructible.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
835
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Posted - 2012.01.02 19:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Well currently there isnt a closest where you can save your outfits so I can see this being VERY annoying having to put clothes back on every time you die. Probably the reason why the charged 10x over regular prices and made them non destructable. I might say it would be "very annoying" to need to acquire and replace the full halo set I prefer to use in combat everytime I "die" but needing to do that is the way of eve risk vs reward. The fact NeX items were made indestructable is an insult and obscenity really and is something I lay squarely at the feet of the madness that infected ccp last year. I consider indestructible items of clothing an absurdity when player-acquired implants are not indestructible.
I'm late to the party in this thread.
For the moment I will just agree with the sentiment that nothing in EVE should be indestructible. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1174
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Posted - 2012.01.02 19:58:00 -
[86] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote: Don't see how one can say the NeX is disrespect for PF. If they had squandered time with what people were wearing when they wrote the PF I wouldn't be here that's for damn sure, I am not really sure why the absence of something in the PF should automatically make it a heresy to implement, seems like a rather large obstacle to development of game if it was so.
Allow me to explain:
With the introduction of the NeX store we are asked to believe that an Amarrian government-owned subsidary "Noble Appliances" has managed to win the exclusive distribution rights for capsuleer clothing across the entirely of known space including many national territories that the Amarrian government is actually at war with. This means that Matari FW participants wishing to customize their Avatars with clothing are directly funding the Amarrian state as a majority shareholder in Noble Appliances and that the Matari republic itself makes available storefront space in its space stations so that its deadly enemy can run a clothing boutique.
So much for the notion of capsuleers as industrial demigods who get to impose their will on the planets below by orbital drops of advanced factories through PI - instead we're asked to see ourselves as pathetic febrile fashion-victims incapable of seeing the ridiculous sums of aurum we are being asked to pay directly to a subsidary of the Amarrian government.
I consider this a bit ridiculous in Prime Fiction terms and I hope you will agree.
Hirana Yoshida wrote: We forced them to put everything not space related on the back-burner. Establishments, however awesome they might have been, were unfortunately part of their WiS concept and as such clumped together with all the other stuff people moaned about. Optimal solution would have been to do them first and have had all the vanity crap be player designed/made/sold .. problem of course would be that it would probably have to be ISK based which means a staggering amount of additional work to staunch the flow of ISK into the system .. because what is the point of designer jeans if anyone can/will afford them?
I'd ask you instead what makes designer jeans special in real life - and I'll tell you from my own experience ordering nice shirts and suits. Its exclusivity based on scarcity. One orders a suit with a six month waiting list because its a particularly nice shop with an excellent reputaton. Let me stress the point again - SIX MONTH WAITING LIST. Items are special because not everyone can have them. Now in Eve terms the NeX store is the equivilent of some nasty mail order clone fashion store that just happens to charge extortionate prices - but there is no scarcity. Press button get clothes. The only way you can have genuine scarcity in a game like eve is to have such things being genuinely difficult to acquire.
Now a pirate implant set is hard to get. Means running missions and getting drops in dangerous space. Thats why they cost 5-8b isk each. Not everyone can have these things, if people decided they all wanted them then the price will skyrocket and only some will get them. Thats scarcity in an MMO. But it works because its player economy at work.
I don't buy for a second your assertion that it would be a staggering amount of extra work to release clothing as items and drops in the game proper and I would love to see genuinely rare items of clothing that come from the most dangerous areas of space and most torturous manufacturing routes. If I saw a player wearing some incredible (and destructible) blood raider ceremonial gown that needed 500,000 lps and components from bizzare 10/10 complexes and relics to assemble then I'd be impressed.
When I see a player wearing a monocle I just think "what an idiot - that looks as cheap as it is."
Hirana Yoshida wrote: Who made the assumption that Incarna = Nex? Certainly not I. What Nex is as far as I see it, is a part of the groundwork for Dust514 (F2P) and a test balloon for WoD. The only relation to Incarna is the cosmetic side.
CCP did by releasing Incarna in the state it was with the only content available through NeX. It strongly indicated they had no other method of delivering incarna content.
Hirana Yoshida wrote: In short: NeX is fine (read: inconsequential) and can be put to good use for corporate uniforms and ship paint-jobs, whereas Aurum is a piece of **** with no redeeming features and no function.
NeX is not fine, its a terrible nonsense in prime fiction terms and an extremely lazy bit of programming. It needs to be stripped out of the game, the various items of clothing need to be introduced through factional loyalty point stores and exploration drops (in the short term) and ship paint jobs likewise. CCP need to breathe a sigh of relief that they avoided oblivion listening to the idiots who sent them on this MT route last year and get back to enriching the perceived value of subscription in order to sell more subscriptions.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 20:01:00 -
[87] - Quote
So you think that injected skill books shoudl be destroyable as well?
Clothes that arent worn are quite destroyable.
NeX isnt fine as it is, there needs to be either a fix or a removal. I am one of the ones who think it can be fixed to be worth the effort in adding in more items related to it.
I seriously think its the whole reason why we havent had any new corp logos in years.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
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Posted - 2012.01.02 20:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Well currently there isnt a closest where you can save your outfits so I can see this being VERY annoying having to put clothes back on every time you die. Probably the reason why the charged 10x over regular prices and made them non destructable. I might say it would be "very annoying" to need to acquire and replace the full halo set I prefer to use in combat everytime I "die" but needing to do that is the way of eve risk vs reward. The fact NeX items were made indestructable is an insult and obscenity really and is something I lay squarely at the feet of the madness that infected ccp last year. I consider indestructible items of clothing an absurdity when player-acquired implants are not indestructible. I'm late to the party in this thread. For the moment I will just agree with the sentiment that nothing in EVE should be indestructible. Edit: To flesh that out a hair... if the canon is going to be that we are naked floating in goo, okay, you wouldn't have your clothing with you unless you have some in the hold of your ship. I see this as problematic. For one thing if this is the case then you should not have any clothing available at your destination (other than generic "hotel issue" clothing). Personally, I have always viewed the requirement to strip down to pilot your ship a bit out of character for the EVE universe... a requirement that the demi-god capsuleers would have found ways around long ago considering how often the average pilot has to do business in a station.
It always made me wonder why we cant wire a blueprint over the hypernet these days. I think the current interation of clothes are also misleading they should be rename them into contracts. The clohting line being obligated to match your needs just as much as the cloning company needed to match your looks and previous skill points.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1174
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Posted - 2012.01.02 20:04:00 -
[89] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:A new questions for Jade and Tippia since they the only ones not frothing from the mouth in getting rid of the store.
What if the clothing items where available though both ingame and currency avenues? LP may take to long to grind for and players want the instant satisfaction where avaialble and plausible. (as I see no there is no need for non military/ non professional clothes to be in the LP store, yet) where the prices in the NeX are in a way arbitarly competitive against the LP store? (basically low enough MT price that it may consider being bought verses the time it would normally need to grind and get standings needed in the LP store to obtain the outfit)
I see no purpose for clothing to be available through ingame and currency venues. The moment you make clothing available through traditional player industry then it will be available for purchase on the market and anyone wanting immediate gratification (avoiding lp grind) has the option to trade plex for isk to acquire it. This is the only kind of MT I support for Eve online.
NeX store (for reasons I explain in the post above) is terrible from a PF angle, and (for reasons Tippia and I have explained at length in the thread) terrible from a player involvement and player led industry angle. There really is no point to it.
And to the point you make - that its been paid for and somehow we have to recover the expense. Well, I honestly don't think the NeX interface took more than a couple of days of work from an intern to code. Its extremely primitive cheap and nasty. Sometimes you need to stop backing a dead horse and write off a bad decision because throwing more money after bad simply doesn't work. Take all the assets out of the NeX store, re-release them through factional LP stores and exploration drops and call it done.
Everyone is happy and nobody loses ANYTHING. Yes, even the fans of NeX (presumably because they see the instant gratification press button, give currency, get thing) appeal, still get to buy stuff instantly through PLEX/ISK transfer but not at the cost of other player entertainment and involvement.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2689
|
Posted - 2012.01.02 20:08:00 -
[90] - Quote
Back to Jade,
I find it annoying that I forget what hardwires I had before I died with certain bodies. Would be nice to make a 'snapshot' of what's plugged in for quick repurchases for whatever jump clone I lose.
However you're right the clothes shouldnt been pernament this was something that was done wrong out the door under quick notice and now that its out of the can it be very bad to get rid of it. Probably just as bad of a fiasco as taking away medical coverage from a union member.
Ultimately I feel that the NeX needed probably 3 expansions worth on the test server before launch to allow alot of time for players to mold and shape it into a digestable MT store but the earnly launch with little to no players feeding it what needs to be done and how it was done leading to a poor launch.
Only thing we seemed to have managed to do was prevent ships from appering out of thin air with the ishkone watch scorpion.
Your previous commet which I have to edit is one reason why the Micro-Plex thing came about CSM been talking about it and unfourutantely due to PDAs we where given only a small hints as to whats in store. The idea that they may change the name of Aurum into a micro-plex may be up to something who knows but ccp and csm. I just only hope players will have much more of a voice in NeX 2.0.
And your right the entire UI and pricing scheme was probably not that well invested into. Unlike the clothes and character deisgns the biggest chunks of the investment.
I for one however would love the entire LP store to be re-written to be more viable in shopping in instead of being slightly worse than market browsing. I know the filters exist but they dont help much when the store offers 200 of the darn things.
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