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Tanis.
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Posted - 2007.05.25 13:23:00 -
[1]
Here you can discuss the upcomming feature: Heat!
You can find information about this and other new things here.
Please keep posts constructive and on topic. ____________________________ I break things.
GM Voodoo > That plan really straddles the fine line between genius and idiocy. Tanis. > And that differs from everything else I say how?
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Nerd Rage
Amarr Team Battle Lobster Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.05.25 13:59:00 -
[2]
So can anyone post some figures on how heat affects stuff?
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Sc0rpion
Minmatar MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:26:00 -
[3]
By the time I was able to overload my 8th turret, my first turret was at 70% damage. Elapsed time - 15 seconds.
Not an encouraging start.
The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Killmails are for pooftas. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:32:00 -
[4]
Modules take damage and goes offline or is destroyed (to tuxford's choice).
(seen this sticky after I answered that in another place, so, yes, I posted what follows twice)
Repairing with a hull repairer (remote or not) would be a good thing. When all structure is repaired, the HP goes to the modules, or it goes to the modules first? Or an option in the hull repairer?
Anyway, who fits a hull repairer in combat? (appart from a BS help helping someone for a lvl 3 as it will fill the time while the structure repairer is at work)
It would add a role for the support ships, repairing the people who took too much heat in combat...
Also, will we have modules much like cap boosters but filled with coolant?
For those who have played mechwarrior, the heat took a big place there, there was an emergency shutdown, but we had a hotkey to cancel it (could be an option in the module for eve as realtime commands are bad), and it avoided the battlemech to explode (like modules should explode with heat), and there was a coolant tank that could get around twice (or 1,5x) the heat to 0. Also Heatsinks to reduce heat and such things.
There shoud be a secure offlining for modules at 25% HP (or any other value or wen it begins to take damage or you configure the %), this way, you can re-online later the module without docking, but the security would refuse overloading unless you turn off the security system (or change it to lower HP limit). -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Happy owner of a Vexor Navy Issue and few ishkurs. The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon ! |
Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Nerd Rage So can anyone post some figures on how heat affects stuff?
The only item I have tested is rocket launchers and they will get a 15% RoF bonus when overloaded.
At the moment you can't overload 1MN MWDs on the test server but I would guess it will give a 15% speed bonus.
You can only enable overloading after the module has been activated so a bit of a bummer if you want to enable it before a fight start.
It would be great if the area to click to enable the overload was a bit bigger as it is quite fiddly to quickly activate several modules. It's a pain when you click the wrong part of the button and deactivate the module instead of overloading it... One solution would be to increase the spacing between the buttons and make the overload activation section a bit bigger (maybe as a small secondary button on top).
Also with more info displayed on the central HUD it might be a good idea to make it a little bit bigger as well. After all most people have migrated away from 1024x768 displays.
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sc0rpion By the time I was able to overload my 8th turret, my first turret was at 70% damage. Elapsed time - 15 seconds.
Not an encouraging start.
Yep, I've already complained about this before. There really needs to be a shortcut to overheat all hi/med/low slots in one click, holding shift and clicking overheat on a high slot should overheat all high slots and the same for mids and lows.
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Chi Quan
Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon
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Posted - 2007.05.25 14:53:00 -
[7]
bigger heat buttons please, i deactivat a module most of the time while i aim for the overload button
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.05.25 15:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Also, will we have modules much like cap boosters but filled with coolant?
I really like the idea of using coolant.
The current design where modules will get totally destroyed is interesting but sucks in a world with lag. Even if you do manage to survive a skirmish you can bet every module will pop as you won't be able to disable the overload in time.
A different approach would be to have heat per module and not damage. The heat will start to build up as soon as you activate the overloading and when it reaches 100% the module will get emergency offlined by the ships computer. Now to prevent the offlining to occur you have two options, stop the overloading (boring) or click on another button next to the module that make the module consume coolant from the cargohold and slowly cool it down. Different modules should consume different amount of coolant (tech 3 could get higher overload bonus but consume more coolant in the process for example).
This would add a nice second layer of micro management of a ship in combat, not only manage cap but also overload/coolant. Now if the lag monster would show up but not kill you all you have to do is go to a safe and slowly put each module online again.
And since everyone and their dog will be keen on having a set amount of coolant with them you can either make it an ice product or make it so it's only sold by NPCs in lowsec.
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Saladin
Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.25 15:55:00 -
[9]
So me and friends tried it out. The modules seem to be only good for a few activations before they were destroyed. 6 reps from a medium armor rep was kind of disappointed.
In any case, here is a change I would like to see. With lag as it is in the game now, there should be a setting to keep overloading on "autorepeat" or "manual". If overloading were available in some of the battles we see in EvE today, the current system (which keeps overheating on until you turn it off) would see a user overload a module, and then not be able to turn off loading before the module was destroyed. So the option to overload for ONLY one cycle needs to be retained for pratical purposes. ----
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.05.25 16:26:00 -
[10]
the whole system needs to be changed to make it so that a module actually has to heat up enough to take damage, this isn't heat right now... as soon as you overheat a module it takes constant damage? there is no fun or skill to micro that, just overheat to 100% and shutoff before it goes off line..
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Satsuki Kakuri
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Posted - 2007.05.25 16:56:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Satsuki Kakuri on 25/05/2007 16:58:14 Some queries and other things I ran into while checking this heat out:
I discovered the little toggle buttons after finding this thread. I was manually right clicking on each item and saying overheat for everything. Which wasn't even very useful while fighting belt rats cause I was staring at my buttons the entire fight. (and then I realized I was paying far more attention to the buttons and not the actual fight)
After discovering the buttons and testing those out, it appears that the mids (and probably the lows, I don't have anything with heat related in the lows atm) are too close to the high buttons to get the heat toggle button - I had to move my mids out to F8 to get that little *toggle heat* clickable area to show up. So I guess the buttons are too close together.
And is this heat doing splash damage? I turned on heat for the F6 gun and watched the F7 gun's damage go up instead of 6's. Probably the other guns' changed too but I wasn't paying that close attention to all of them. Same with the shield hardeners... the LSE took damage far faster then the actual hardener did.
How is this all related to each other? Or how is damage even calculated?
Also, with all the new flashies (green bars, red flashy bars, inactive flashy, active flashy), I had a hard time telling which module was active or not. I kept turn off guns I thought were already off but were actually on. A larger message saying that a gun is no longer active would be nice. Even harder is being able to tell that a gun went offline or is just not active. And then I kept hitting the one gun trying to turn it on and it was actually offline and I still don't know what the popup message was except it was several lines long which I just assumed the gun didn't work anymore. It was too short amongst all the 'you are hit for blah blah damage!' messages.
Why are there two different red bars in the heat bar? What is the difference between the two? There is only one popup for that entire bar and it doesn't tell me what that bar is actually showing me.
About that popup bar over the heat bar. It currently reads Heat Status (L/M/H) 0%/0%/0%
I would think I'd like to know my highs first, it just seems a bit backwards.
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.25 17:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Blind Man the whole system needs to be changed to make it so that a module actually has to heat up enough to take damage, this isn't heat right now... as soon as you overheat a module it takes constant damage? there is no fun or skill to micro that, just overheat to 100% and shutoff before it goes off line..
/signed
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Cur
Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire Pure.
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Posted - 2007.05.25 18:18:00 -
[13]
Highslots overheat too fast compared to minimal benefit. I was using 8 1400mm artillery and by the second volley, all of them were offlined.
Graphic effects for shield hardeners continue after they have been overheated and offlined.
"What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." |
Sevani
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.25 18:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sevani on 25/05/2007 18:32:35 Edited by: Sevani on 25/05/2007 18:31:32 I think the heat idea as planned is not a good way to spend time developing EvE.
Before CCP implements any feature they need to ask themselves, "How will this feature make the game more fun." I am unsure how heat will meet that goal. EvE is already a insanely complex system that requires an unnecessary number of clicks to just start shooting at something.
With heat, the only reward is a percentage improvement for a module, with the risk being all modules becoming destroyed or unusable until you dock. This plan is not thought out completely. Boosters are a much better idea for that type of percentage increase. However boosters are very rare and virtually inaccessible to the population.
To see all the work being done on the game for heat, while other features could be a better use of development time. For example: Stored Ship configurations, weapon load out presets, improved notification of combat messages, or better availability of boosters.
-7 |
ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:22:00 -
[15]
I don't think module damage is a good idea. It makes it harder for those living out of poses, because they cannot repair the modules. And it also is bad because you modules can pop very easily if you cannot turn off the overheat them due to lag.
I think overheating should result in the module being offlined.
Make Mining Better |
Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2007.05.25 21:06:00 -
[16]
"Heat level critical..." "Shut down sequence initiated.." "Shutting down !" "Flushing coolant!" "Heat level ... Nominal ..." "Shutdown sequence... Aborted"
Ouuu Yeahh !
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Valator Uel
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.05.26 01:07:00 -
[17]
I think people are forgetting the reason overloading is being implemented and its intended use. According to Oveur, overloading is a "last ditch effort to save your ship". It is NOT meant to be used at the START of combat but rather when things are going bad and you know you'll lose the ship if you don't overload.
Stop whining and trying to make this a feature that is done at the start of combat. Otherwise we might as well boost all modules in the game by 10% and remove overloading (and therefore heat) from the game. -----------------------------------------------------
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Sevani
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.26 04:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Valator Uel I think people are forgetting the reason overloading is being implemented and its intended use. According to Oveur, overloading is a "last ditch effort to save your ship". It is NOT meant to be used at the START of combat but rather when things are going bad and you know you'll lose the ship if you don't overload.
Stop whining and trying to make this a feature that is done at the start of combat. Otherwise we might as well boost all modules in the game by 10% and remove overloading (and therefore heat) from the game.
I think that is a valid point. I'm just not sure the methods they are using to translate that into actual game play meet that goal. I think the responses of how people are using the overload feature, demonstrate that people don't see it the same way as CCP. If indeed they want it to be as Oveur says, then the mechanics need to change.
Most responses I've seen only show what is wrong with the heat implementation. My own testing confirms this. I haven't seen any posts, nor experienced any positive uses of heat. So again I ask, "what is fun or useful about heat?" I don't know everything, so if someone does have some positive uses or strategies I'd be interested in hearing them.
-7 |
Valator Uel
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.05.26 04:46:00 -
[19]
I have to admit that only allowing a couple of cycles before a module explodes is a bit short.
On the sidenote, didn't the devs also say something about heat being linked to T3? Perhaps the current implementation of Heat is just the begining and the devs have plans for more interesting things... in which case it would be nice if the devs could clarify their intentions. -----------------------------------------------------
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Pratiken
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Posted - 2007.05.26 07:41:00 -
[20]
So will Titans be able to overheat their Doomsday Devices?
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Jean Korr
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Posted - 2007.05.26 08:51:00 -
[21]
I'm also thinking heat isn't cool (ahahah) as it should. Why:
A. to much effort spent on UI. This is merely a graphical problem. I would like to see an "Emergency button" which would overload everything. When you know you're about to die, you really don't have the time to set manually 10+ modules to an overload state. B. Emergency sequence: If CCP really want that overloading your module is an emergency sequence, then do so. Give the module an insane bonus (+400% damage for weapon, +400% boost for reppers/boosters) then offline them. Every module on overload add to general heat (please, don't do 3 layers heat, it add to much complexity), the bigger module, the more heat. I even don't know why you put up an heat indicator. The heat system should be done by module. Upon overload, damage a bit the module. C. Overheating should be automatic in certain cases: When taking structural damage, reppers/boosters should overheat automatically; after all, you're pretty dead in structure.
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Tanko Tanki
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Posted - 2007.05.26 08:55:00 -
[22]
I don't think so. A DDdevice takes 1 day to recharge. Overcharge it and it will be gone in less than a minute
Btw. I agree with the guy who said that overheated modules should shutdown before they explode. If it's not an option than a overcharged module should last longer. ATM you don't even have the time to overcharge the last module of a row that the first module is gone. Not to mention the effects of overcharge+lag: worse than drink+drive... ("Lots of petitons coming I see" said Yoda). A solution may be this: - standard mode: modules overcharge the way they do now (maybe a bit more slowly) but when they reach 90% of damage they shutdown. this mode gives a minor bouns like 7.5 or 10% - Panic mode: You are alone against 5695654363 enemy ships. You know you're dead. You activate the panic mode (5 fast clicks on the cap star in the center of hud). This mode overheats the modules way faster than the standard mode and it has no protection against burnout but it gives massive boost, something like 50% more damage for guns or +50% efficency for armor repairers.
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.26 09:38:00 -
[23]
Well, heat should be a last-ditch thing. But I think that heat destroying modules is a bit much, it should offline them. Whats the point in saving your ship via overheating, if it has no mods left on it? And what about the guy whos ganking you?, you shouldn't be able to overheat your stuff just to deprive him of your loot.
Also the interface needs a bit of tweaking, with the way lag works your first overheated module may be offlined by the time you are able to overheat the last module. We need to be able to set modules on overheat mode faster. Like hitting ctrl + clicking the module.
Make Mining Better |
Kosakova Intrinnae
Minmatar DEATH IINDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2007.05.26 10:30:00 -
[24]
when i1st heard of heat and "turning my guns up to 11" i thought i would be able to turn my tank down to 9 so to speek to compensate for my guns.
The current system is hard to manage atm as most people have already said, a shift + click to overload mods would be good imo. and also modules being damaged as soon as you overload them, i think they should only start taking damage when the corasponding heat bar is at ctrical level (75% eg). this way you could manage it better.
but i have saved my tyhpoon on test server by over heating armour hardeners + repaier amount but i had to turn them off pretty quick agian. eventure my hardener went boom and that waws the death of me.
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Futher Bezluden
Minmatar The Suicide Kings FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.05.26 12:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 26/05/2007 12:55:03 atm, as of yesterday, you can toggle overload before starting up the mod. I set all my guns to overload prior to activating and worked like a charm -blew all of them off my ship in 3-5 volleys.
Sure, they give some really nice bonuses, but as everyone says, "They are a last ditch effort". HEAT atm is a really good way to make sure your enemy is denied loot.
It would be wonderful for the modules into a forced shutdown period (not offline) for 30s once overloaded. The current time it takes for a weapon to blow up is so fast you might only want it as a single initial volley (for those with damage not rof bonus) then quickly deactivate it so they don't all blow up.
I think this is why some pilots want a quick "toggle overload" button so they get that initial gank strike, then toggle it off for a few volleys while the "heat" diminishes until they can toggle for another massive gank strike.
-edit: The idea of all logistics ships having bonuses for "remote hull reps" that could fix damage suffered -so long as the modules is not in use to prevent a ship from maintaining overload forever simply because a logistics ship is "HEAT tanking" him. Conversely, if the module activates while being "repaired", why not have there be the chance of damage to the logistics module at work.
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination.
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:03:00 -
[26]
Test results:
- All Modules with the same fitting area (high/med/low) can (?) get damage if one module in that area is overdoaded.
- If an Module gets to 100% damage, it shuts down and offlines, and cannot be onlined again. (until repaired i hope :p )
This is possibly broken for passive modules (Inertia Stab, armor plating/Heat sink was tested.) because they stay online.
- armor repper stays online too with 100% damage, and can be activated and overloaded once and then shuts down again, but stays online, and can be activated again for one cycle.
- on my punisher, i could not get to more than 50% heat, until all modules were dead in that row :)
Misc.: The little overload indicator on the module icon can not be clicked if there is another module above it in the rows left of the speedometer.
clicking the overload indicator when module is not active, will start the module overloaded next time it is activated, but has no indication of its current state. (i.e. you dont see if the module will start overloaded on next activation or not.)
The Highslot modules were dying very fast, especialy the salvager, which was not even active. It seems to have less hitpoints than the guns. This swift death of the highslot modules is probably because of the guns, which cycle much more often, than say , armor repper, and so more often trigger a 'wo wants some damage, hmm?' calculation.
Conclusion:
Come on, people, Heat is a great idea, but not like this. As it is now, you can only overheat a module for maybe 1-3 minutes total before you need to repair it.
Thats plain boring. a set damage amount per time is way to simple, and doesnt even scratch the full potential you have with heat.
Ideas:
Every active module produces heat. the heat level of a ship without overloading, should raise to about 50% and stay there. You could use 1-(capacitor/shield formula) for heat dissipation, meaning your ship can quickly spread heat when slighly overheated (70% heat), but above that, it can overheat quickly and thus starting to damage modules.
By this You can make heat something realy interesting, because you can actually micromanage your overheat status, without damaging modules, but only if you are quick. For example 2 repper cycles are ok, but 3 on overload will push you in the red, where you risk damage to modules, and have to switch the repper off for a cycle or two, to let your Heat status get back to yellow.
In the future, you can also make Balancing changes to modules, by having them produce more heat, or be more resistant to overheating. Like tech2 could have higher bonus during overheat, but producing lot more heat also, or being damaged more easyli.
Please make this beautifull heat idea not so clumsy, let it shine!
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Domination.
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Di Jiensai on 26/05/2007 14:11:18 Ideas summary :
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Every active module produces heat.
- Imagine heat as a 'inverse capacitor'.
The Capacitor gets recharged constantly, and your modules substract their cap use from it.
Make Heat reduce constantly with the 1-(cap/shield formula) and have modules add their heat to it.
- Ships with all modules active but not overloaded, should be able to vent all the heat they produce, and keep below 70% (max heat dissipation)
- Overloaded modules produce a lot more heat, and thus quickly drive your heat status above the max "recharge" point, where you have to switch some modules off, so it goes down again, or start to take damage when heat gets above 90%
- 10% chance of module damage evey 5 seconds the ship is above 90% heat.
20% chance every 5 seconds above 92 % up to 50% chance every 5 seconds above 98%
- When a module gets damaged, it switches off. it does not offline until it is destroyed.
- Damaged Passive modules keep online, but get their damage in percent multiplyer on their bonus (30% damage = 70% efficiency)
- Add a 'heat dissipator' module that helps reducing heat faster, so you can keep your mods on overload by sacrificing some slots.
- oh, and remove the diffrent heat bars, and replace it by one for all modules on ship.
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Ozzie Asrail
Exploited
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:07:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ozzie Asrail on 26/05/2007 14:06:57 Heat: It's not Hot :(
OK excuse the pun... There are some major issues with heat and reading the DevBlog that said Rev2 is almost ready for a code freeze and release I gotta post this.
1. Tactics.
There is none relating to heat, it's simply turn on then either wait for your modules\ship to die or you then immediatly turn off after 1 or 2 cycles. That really is the entire gameplay relating to heat, where's the tactics?
Destroying any thought of tactics even more is the apparent "random" damage that comes from heat. I turned on my 2x LAR's then hit overload. 2 cycles of my reppers later my damage control offlined with 100% dmg, 1x EAN was at 80%, 1x EAN was at 0%, 1x MagStab was 45%, 1x Magstab was 0%, 1x LAR was 0%, 1x LAR was 5%.
How can i be expected to make good tactical decisions when it's comlpletly random as to the downsides I encounter? How is there any sort of tactics when basically it's an on-off feature?
2. Speed
The buildup of heat is way, way too fast. As show above that was only 2 cycles of 2 reppers and already 1 module had gone offline and 2 more close to it. Even just 1 reload of a heavy cap booster had me at 30% heat on the mid slots. Even worse is that modules sometimes seem start taking damage immediatly.
1 or 2 cycles of heat before modules start dieing. That's not really going to change any outcomes of fights.And alot of the time the close ones also last a long time. In the grand scheme of a 10 minute fight 20 seconds of overload will not make any difference. The speed that heat breaks things also contributes to the lack of tactics as I talked about ealier.
3. Ballance
I'm still trying to figure alot of the ballance out at the moment but has it even been looked at? It eems every mod is overloadable by 15% and some mods that should (?) have overloads like MWD's don't have them yet. Looking at the other mods is ther any reasons things like a DCU and EAN has 10hp and a magstab or repper has 20hp or a gun has 80hp? As far as i can see no changes to HP values has been made with the introducion of Heat?
Heat values by slots. This is the main ballance issue in regards to the effects of Heat. Armour tanking is a lowslot setup but as are damage mods and as is the DCU (which nearly all pvp ships of any type fit) yet sheild tanking is midslots and does not share slots with damage mods.
Why are armour takns risking both tanking AND damage when they want to overload their tank? Shield tanks will have other mods in some mid slots but i'd argue that losign a spare midslot mod like a scram is less important than a magstab. In the same vein is the difference between a 2x LAR setup and a XL Booster + Amp, 2 heat generating LAR's v 1 heat generating booster and amp. Also EAN's 10hp - Invulns 20hp.
Part 2 below... -----
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Ozzie Asrail
Exploited
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:07:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ozzie Asrail on 26/05/2007 14:07:45 cont...
I urge CCP to rethink the whole concept of heat. It needs to be fun, tactical and effective becuase currently it is none of those things.
My Idea's
Heat should be a shipwide value, think of it as a finite amount of coolant or someting. Heat should be analogue not digital, there should be skill involved in setting your moduile values and there should be skill and tactics involved in tailoring your ship to the situation. Heats downsides should not be random chance.
Every ship has 100 coolant and by default every active module takes an equal % of that to total 100. Should I want to overload my guns I need to pump more coolant into it but that has got too be transfered from a differnt mod. Say i'm obnly using 1 of 2 reppers, the repper thats not being used at all could have all it's coolant syphoned out and into the guns. Of course without any coolant if I need to use it then i need to pump it back into that repper. On a similar note i might want to pump half the coolant from all my guns into my reppers.
Analogue control. A basic stacking penalty and diminishing returns would mean that dialing down reppers to 0% efficiancy wouldn't mean I could boost the guns to 200% or anyting like that. But it would be analogue control and it would allow pilot skill and tactics to ballance the exact needs of damage\tank\cap\etc to the specific engagment they are fighting. Perhaps a few "presets" could enable quick and rough control then let the pilot tune it during flight.
It will be effective because it would enable a semi-stable setup to be used without major damage for longer periods of time. It woudn't simply be a last resort but would be a another tool for skilled players to master and another feature of EVE that lets a "good" lower SP pilot be competative against a "bad" higher SP player.
It's also fun! I'm sorry but being in a gang deep in 0.0 and blowing up your guns and having to drag you and all your friends 30+ jmups back home to get it fixed is not fun. Winning a fight because you overloaded but getting ganked by a single inty 1 minute later because you have no tank left is not fun. Losing a fight and then clocking "overload" on 20 differnt icons and still losing, how is that any more enjoyable than jsut getting ganked without heat? -----
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:16:00 -
[30]
modules shouldn't be destroyid and removed, only destroyid so you would have to repair them again.
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