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Kil'Roy
Minmatar The Rat Patrol
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:24:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Kil''Roy on 26/05/2007 18:25:30 I tried out heat on test and think that it isn't going to work in it's current state.
Heat builds up too quick for the increase in damage. If your modules are going to blow up in less than a minute, make it so they do two or three times the damage.
I say keep it as is, with the modules taking damage right away, (to keep the gankers from abusing it), and make it so the increase in weapons fire is greater.
This may discourage the ganker from seeking quick kills, unless he can repair nearby, and help the defender counter close to equal odds.
Another option is to have multiple levels of overload, IE. 15% overload over 10 minutes before damage, Followed by 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
80-200% overload, taking damage right away, modules could be gone in under two minutes, Followed 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.26 22:51:00 -
[32]
What I taught heat would be, and think it should be, was very similar to what Di Jiensai posted, with one small difference.
There wouldn't be a % chance of module damage above a certain point. Instead modules would take damage when they tried to create heat that couldn't "fit" into the ship's heat sink. The heat "overflow" would be converted to module damage.
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Santa Anna
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Posted - 2007.05.27 00:05:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Santa Anna on 27/05/2007 00:06:33
Originally by: Kil'Roy Edited by: Kil''Roy on 26/05/2007 18:25:30 I tried out heat on test and think that it isn't going to work in it's current state.
Heat builds up too quick for the increase in damage. If your modules are going to blow up in less than a minute, make it so they do two or three times the damage.
I say keep it as is, with the modules taking damage right away, (to keep the gankers from abusing it), and make it so the increase in weapons fire is greater.
This may discourage the ganker from seeking quick kills, unless he can repair nearby, and help the defender counter close to equal odds.
Another option is to have multiple levels of overload, IE. 15% overload over 10 minutes before damage, Followed by 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
80-200% overload, taking damage right away, modules could be gone in under two minutes, Followed 20 min reduced activity to cool down, docking dosen't help.
Just got through testing heat and IMO it's brilliant.
You can "preheat" your modules (and this survives going through a gate) so campers don't necessarily have an advantage -- their prey can be preheated as well.
I'm not sure how the repair costs would scale (I was stuck using an alt to test so only used frig guns) but I can't imagine anyone preheating their weapons for an unknown target simply for the hassle factor. If repair costs for the modules on TQ are high then that would be a huge deterrent as well.
The advantage (15% rof) is enough to tip the scales in the first minute or so of an even fight, but likely not worth it in a fight that the ganker would clearly win. In large fights there's also the threat of lag not actually unheating your weapons until they've croaked, which should limit the use of this feature to when it is really a necessity.
It would also provide some "home field advantage" to players able to repair or refit nearby which, IMO, is good.
I do wish it was a little easier to accomplish, though. Right clicking on 8 different modules halfway through a fight won't be easy.
edit: nerf eve-o forum software |
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.27 09:04:00 -
[34]
My problem is by the time i arribe to my 7th turret my first turret is already at 50% dmg. Please one button for "overload my high slot modules", another for mids and another for lows. If there are a lot modules on the same range slot its a pain do , right click, select overload.
Or if you cant do that. Then add a hotkey something like if i press my currents hotkeys with another key pressed i overload that module
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Dei
Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.27 12:37:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Dei on 27/05/2007 12:37:32 I was under the impression that you could underload other modules in order to balance the heat so that damage does not occur. So for instance, you overload all turrets/launchers but underload your reppers so you do more damage but have less tanking capabilities.
The system as it stands makes it useless for anything but small hostile engagements. The overloading doesn't last on anything for missioning, fleet battles are gonna run dry within 2 minutes, and you're gonna have to go back to nearest station to repair if you're running a gate camp after every engagement.
Just seems silly that a new feature is provided when in a mundane situation you're not gonna actually use it. This is of course, if it is 'Heat' content finished, not just testing overloading then adding other features to it. ---
The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack |
BobsBrother
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:16:00 -
[36]
The build up of heat is way, way to fast. As people have stated by the time you hit the last gun the first is going into melt down.
Whats the point of using it if it takes so little time to overheat the module, i would think maybe a minute befor it hits meltdown would be ok, (for those times when lag takes a peek at your connection) but not how it is at them moment.
Although when i tried using a large cap booster with 800 charges in it it never ever got hot.
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Moraguth
Amarr Rangers
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Di Jiensai Edited by: Di Jiensai on 26/05/2007 14:11:18 Ideas summary :
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Every active module produces heat.
- Imagine heat as a 'inverse capacitor'.
The Capacitor gets recharged constantly, and your modules substract their cap use from it.
Make Heat reduce constantly with the 1-(cap/shield formula) and have modules add their heat to it.
- Ships with all modules active but not overloaded, should be able to vent all the heat they produce, and keep below 70% (max heat dissipation)
- Overloaded modules produce a lot more heat, and thus quickly drive your heat status above the max "recharge" point, where you have to switch some modules off, so it goes down again, or start to take damage when heat gets above 90%
- 10% chance of module damage evey 5 seconds the ship is above 90% heat.
20% chance every 5 seconds above 92 % up to 50% chance every 5 seconds above 98%
- When a module gets damaged, it switches off. it does not offline until it is destroyed.
- Damaged Passive modules keep online, but get their damage in percent multiplyer on their bonus (30% damage = 70% efficiency)
- Add a 'heat dissipator' module that helps reducing heat faster, so you can keep your mods on overload by sacrificing some slots.
- oh, and remove the diffrent heat bars, and replace it by one for all modules on ship.
I have to admit, this is pretty much how I envisioned heat when they first started talking about it. How all modules produce a steady amount of heat, some mods take heat away faster. Things you do (activating, overloading, shutting down modules) affect how much heat is produced. When heat gets to a certain point, modules start taking damage and go offline to protect themselves at a certain point.
I think I saw "remote hull repairer" as part of the Triage Module benefits. If this is in, it would help make it so people could overload their mods longer?
Anyway, in short..
/signed
good game |
ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:54:00 -
[38]
Ok heres what I think needs to happen.
Overheating should cause modules to go offline, rather than destroying (or damaging the module) This is because the damage part of it causes several problems,
1. being that damage is only repairable via a station or outpost, meaning that players who primarily live out of poses would be at a disadvantage.
2. I can say if the damage thing is implemented its main use will just be to deprive the winner of the battle of his loot, rather than saving ones ship. If this happens you better double or even triple the amount of named t1 mods dropped by rats and cut the time and material cost of t2 mods by half, most mods are 'recycled' through several owners before they get destroyed. This would cut down the 'life' of each mod significantly, and increase demand.
Now with overloading you should have an option to overheat a whole row of slots. I usually separate my mods so offensive mods are in one row, defensive in another, and if i have ewar or something that will occupy another row.
But there should also could be shortcuts to overload, like having caps lock will make it so that the key combinations also overload the modules when they activate them.
Make Mining Better |
Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 22:03:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Dristra on 27/05/2007 22:09:07 The impression i got when i tried it was: not fun and unpredictable, its like having a rabid dog chained to your foot
Edit(addition): The repair process is also rather time consuming, you should be able to just right click a module [or select multiple] and choose repair
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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D Gelalder
Gallente The Praxis Initiative
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Posted - 2007.05.28 07:26:00 -
[40]
There is a "repair all" button in the lower left corner of the repair window. ( in station )
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Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:55:00 -
[41]
I'd like a right click ship "Repair all modules" feature as well if repair is going to become an actual factor.
This does make station camping a bit interesting, just overheat all your guns for the few seconds you might get a target secure in teh knowledge hte fight will be over fast and you can redock for repairs.
However, heat is going to be a dangerous siren's song for 0.0 dwellers that don't rely on stations but use POS instead.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.28 12:40:00 -
[42]
Time for repair POS modules,make em consume mechanical parts + electronics.
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Nymos
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Aki Yamato "Heat level critical..." "Shut down sequence initiated.." "Shutting down !" "Flushing coolant!" "Heat level ... Nominal ..." "Shutdown sequence... Aborted"
Ouuu Yeahh !
that sounds pretty much like mechwarrior :D. i loved to alpha strike stuff with the heaviest weapons and just flush some coolant into my systems --
Every time a carebear dies an angel gets their wings (murder one)
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Andreya
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:30:00 -
[44]
Im just putting in my two cents. remove heat :( pvp is already pretty hectic as it is, micromanaging all the little buttons and overviews.... it wouldnt be such an issue if you guys redesigned the gameplay HUD... but i havent seen any changes yet.
hint* hotkeys would be appreciated! (keep at range A, B, C,.. Orbit A, B, C.... Ram (lead target)
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Requiescat
Caldari Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.05.28 20:47:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Requiescat on 28/05/2007 20:47:57 TBH, I would much rather see devs working on stuff that people have asked for (This and this for example) than going off on a tangent and introducing a new "feature" that will cause thousands of headaches and completely defeat the purpose of a staggering number of mods in the game (Damage mods, repper/booster speed rigs, etc.).
Think about the ship setups featured in videos like Wave of Mutilation and Vindication 3... Overheating will allow you to get the same performance out of regular, inexpensive gear on a standard battleship that you would get out of the billions and billions worth of faction and officer they have strapped on their faction BS, and all you have to do is hit the little overheat button.
Why are you trying to kill EVE? <-- Sig starts here.
Victory - Honor = Loss |
Altaris Dorrick
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Posted - 2007.05.29 01:32:00 -
[46]
I think the essential problem here is that there's some confusion in how CCP *wants* heat to work, how players expect it to work, and how the dev team is actually implementing it.
There are really two useful ways that I see a concept of *heat* being implemented. The first is what most players would have expected, and that heat would be another manageable resource of your ship similar to capacitor. Modules could be turned off/on/active/overload to change total heat produced, and as things got into the very toasty region stuff would start taking damage or would go offline. Benefits from overloading would be small but noticeable, similar to how they are currently implemented, but duration would be much longer, and things would happen in a much more predictable and controlled fashion. Numerous posts exist in this thread outlining implementations of this type of heat in detail, so I won't bother saying anything else about it.
The other way to implement heat, and how CCP apparently wants it to work, is that it's a last-ditch shot to try and save your ship before it pops. If this is the case, then the current implementation is nothing short of awful for this type of system. Firstly, you'd need to make it drastically easier to overload modules. If you want a last-ditch type heat system, then the only place you're going to be using it is in an emergency, when you need results *fast*. Clicking sequentially on dozens of tiny hairline buttons is not effective for this, and some type of fast activation (either with a row-activate shortcut or a held modifier (ctrl+click or ctrl+f1 kind of idea) must be implemented. This should be implemented regardless, but last-ditch style heat is useless without it. Additionally, if we're talking last-ditch save your ship, the benefits you currently get from overloading are basically useless. A 15% ROF bonus to your weapons or 15% cycle time reduction on a shield repper isn't going to save anybody. If it's last-ditch burn out your modules to save your ship, it should be dramatic. Rate of fire or cycle time bonuses don't help when you aren't going to live more than a couple more cycles. It would need to be damage percentage boosts, total armor/shield repaired boosts (possibly also costing more cap when overloaded?), and the percentages need to be much higher. As it stands, modules only last a few cycles on overload anyways (fine if it's last-ditch), but the percentage benefits would have to be in the 50%-100% boost region if you want overloaded modules to have any chance of saving any ships, as seems to be the intention. If you can double the damage of your turrets for 15 seconds (and fry them in the process), it might just be enough to pop that BS before it launches that last fatal barrage of cruise missiles. Firing 15% faster probably won't even be noticed by the enemy before you're dead.
Additional notes: - It would be a crime against humanity if overloading of ABs and MWDs were not implemented before release. - The three separate heat meters are wholly unnecessary, even for the slow micromange-style heat system. One common heat bar is perfectly fine for that, and the way the last-ditch heat system works (taking example from parts of the current system) a heat bar is basically unimportant anyways, and could be removed (modules seem to take notable damage regardless of whether the heat is up or not, and are fully damaged before heat even gets up past half) -Some clarity is needed to indicate how each module contributes to heat, and how damage is taken. Do modules of different sizes have different HP, and damage is dealt evenly? Is it biased towards the overloaded module or online modules at all? etc... -If micromanage-style heat is implemented, some additional heat mitigating modules (either passive/active heatsinks, or ammunition-based coolant shots) should definitely be implemented to expand on the really interesting strategies this type of heat system introduces.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.05.29 12:27:00 -
[47]
The overwhelmingly consistant thing about CCP's current implementation of heat is this: no one likes it.
It has no real effectiveness in the outcome of a fight. If you're losing a fight, overloading isn't going to make a difference. The paltry performance increase produced by overloading modules for a few seconds won't make a bit of difference in a fight.
It's hard to use: the interface is clunky and inefficient, hard to control and the visual information and performance feedback of what is actually going on is hard to interpret and manage at best.
I think that the majority of the player base was expecting something different: another layer of complexity and management, similar to how the capacitor currently works, with the ability to push the system beyond it's performance limits, resulting in some risk to offline or damage modules. This type of design would lend overloading to be used on a regular basis in combat.
The current design is the exact opposite of this. The actual utility and practicality of overloading is so limited that it's not going to be used, much less used with great effect, in the majority of fights, if not almost 100% of all fights. The conditions that would render it's use an advantage are so few and far between that it's practically non existant.
With all the effort that went into redesigning the UI, that same effort could have been better spent completely redesigning the Drone Interface, something that almost all players would find usefull, and be using a large majority of the time in PVP and PVE.
I have tested overloading in detail, noting it's effects- it's benefits and drawbacks. I have yet to test it in a duel or practice fight on the test server. Why? Because it's so useless, it's not even worth testing in an actual fight.
Other people have tried using overloading in fights with myself, hoping to make some difference, but all that resulted was their ship dying faster than normal as all of their modules went offline and I destroyed them once they had no tank and no more offensive modules.
All my experiences so far with overloading is that it has contributed to the destruction of the ships that use it, rather than saving them.
I know that the design of heat/overloading isn't final, but I assume at this stage in the game (no pun intended) it is near it's final shape with respect to how the devs would like to see it implemented. Why else would you release it from closed testing?
In my opinion the concept needs to be scrapped completely and redesigned from the ground up. The interface of the modules isn't that bad, with respect to showing what modules are/are not overloaded, but the actual design of how heat/overloading works as it is now is completely useless.
Personally I'd like to see the devs issue a poll to the players and see how we as players would envision heat, how we would find it usefull and fun and how it would add depth and complexity to gameplay in Eve.
The majority of the suggestions players have posted about heat have been fairly close to each other in concept. If so many players have similar ideas about how they think it should work, I would think that the devs would have had similar thoughts. It makes me wonder as to how heat happened to evolve into it's current form.
Because I said so...
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Antarus Lars
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Posted - 2007.05.29 14:42:00 -
[48]
Get the devs to play Mechwarrior - Seriously....
Each ship should a heat level, based on ship size and class (also T2 ships should have better heat values.
-100% Red - Damage taken -75% Orange - Sweet spot - Best for combat -50% Standard - All items active -25% Blue - Cooled (some modules turned off) -00% Black - Critical mass reached, emergancy shutdown
Also you could have the option of not shutting down and allowing you to go critical mass and explode in splash damamge.
This can also be the final excuse to boost amarr.
Ie
Zealot
150 Natural heatsink
Overload the guns will add +10 and destroy them,
Turn off your repper u can keep on those guns overloaded, simple.
Also heatsinks could also reduce this amount by 10% a level or summat i dunno
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Greme
Amarr Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.05.29 17:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Antarus Lars Get the devs to play Mechwarrior - Seriously....
Each ship should a heat level, based on ship size and class (also T2 ships should have better heat values.
-100% Red - Damage taken -75% Orange - Sweet spot - Best for combat -50% Standard - All items active -25% Blue - Cooled (some modules turned off) -00% Black - Critical mass reached, emergancy shutdown
Also you could have the option of not shutting down and allowing you to go critical mass and explode in splash damamge.
This can also be the final excuse to boost amarr.
Ie
Zealot
150 Natural heatsink
Overload the guns will add +10 and destroy them,
Turn off your repper u can keep on those guns overloaded, simple.
Also heatsinks could also reduce this amount by 10% a level or summat i dunno
IMO, this is a far better way of implementing heat, and not just because I enjoyed the mechwarrior games! It leads to tactical decisions of the RELATIVE overloading and underloading of modules, or complete inactivation. Rather than a simple 15 second bosot to gun damage before they go pop approach.
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Christopher Dalran
Gallente Deadly Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.29 18:30:00 -
[50]
Please find whoever made the UI for overloading and stick him on a screen running 1600x1200. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
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Dodona
Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.05.29 19:36:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Dodona on 29/05/2007 19:35:32
Originally by: Christopher Dalran Please find whoever made the UI for overloading and stick him on a screen running 1600x1200.
It is exceedingly difficult to know how much ammo you have left.
And way too easy to accidentally overload your modules and a few moments later wonder why you aren't repping anymore.
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agel blonde
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Posted - 2007.05.29 23:43:00 -
[52]
i understand that heat is supposed to be a way of a last ditch effort to save your ship.
But in some instances it is tactical to consider what you can to to sway a battle, making pvp more interesting.
In particular on testing manticore stealth bomber you can only fire 4 salvos with 3 cruise launchers fitted with them on overload before the cloak you have fitted gets 100% damage and is unusable until you repair it at a stn
sometimes you know when u need that little bit of extra dmg to hit someone, plus dont wanna be heading back to a repairshop every few attacks
the penalty seems a little steep for ships with fewer slots and maybe needs to be lowered according to ship slot layout (or size) |
William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.30 00:48:00 -
[53]
Umm, can anyone clarify how exactly this works? I turn on heat and seem to get random damage to my modules. They also turn off upon getting damaged. At the same time a bar fills up above my capacitor indicator, but I have no idea what this does....
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Altaris Dorrick
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Posted - 2007.05.30 04:17:00 -
[54]
Well, the bar above the capacitor is supposed to indicate two things - if I'm reading it correctly, the red section for each slot type shows the average damage of the modules of that type (or something) and the white bar indicates the current heat level of that slot. I would *expect* that damage would be related to how hot things currently are - but as it stands this doesn't seem to really be the case. Modules take damage as soon as you overload them, even if heat is low - and the damage appears to be very randomly distributed to all modules in that row, INCLUDING modules that are completely offline.
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Ladyah Liandri
VMF-214 Blacksheep
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:03:00 -
[55]
Heat suggestion:
Don't hide "Toggle overloading" in the freaking module's menu. I'd rather like to see a dialog-element directly at a module's icon to switch it on / off.
The current clickety-click is just a pain.
Heat only seems to make sense in edge-of-disaster kind of situations. I don't see myself fiddling dwarfed menus when hell breaks lose spiced up with lag.
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Professor Smartypants
The Cause
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:29:00 -
[56]
amarr suggestion:
Heat Sink II : added special bonus, remove negative effects (chance of module damage) of Heat
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.05.30 13:20:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Heat suggestion:
Don't hide "Toggle overloading" in the freaking module's menu. I'd rather like to see a dialog-element directly at a module's icon to switch it on / off.
The current clickety-click is just a pain.
Actually you can, the part of the module the is turning green when you activate overload also works as a toggle button. However it only works as long as you don't have a slot above it populated with modules.
We're sorry, something happened.
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Z'Blikker
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Posted - 2007.05.30 13:39:00 -
[58]
Another heat suggestion to balance the damage:
You have two heat-pools, one for the powergrid (mw) and one for the cpu (tf).
If the heat in one pool gets over a threshold (maybe 50 %) a certain ammount of damage is dealt to all modules. The actual damage ammount for each module is calculated by:
d : damage dealt to module hd: damage generated by heat pn: powergrigneed of the module ps: powergrid of the ship
d = hd * (pn / ps)
i think this model is more fun, because if you overheat your guns it is more likly that your guns and armourrepairers gets the damage. if you overclock your hardeners it is more likly your gyros or sensorboosters get the damage.
the generation of heat could use a similar model. But i have no time at the moment.
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Unfamed II
FinFleet
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Posted - 2007.05.30 13:49:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Unfamed II on 30/05/2007 13:47:57 Dunno if this has been suggested yet, but here goes: Make modules have cap-like damage, which slowly regenerates. If it hits 75%, theres a (rather high, 75% maybe)chance of the mod blowing up (going offline), and the chance increases the more you "heat up" the mod. Roll the dice at every activation cycle of the mod. Or increase amount of rolls.
75% damage = one roll next cycle, 75% chance of mod going offline until repaired at station. 80% damage = well, maybe two rolls? Or 80% chance of offlining the mod.
Some penalties to below 75% damage would be good too.
Make remote hull reps work with this somehow, when subsystem targeting makes it to TQ. :P - - Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:12:00 -
[60]
Few things:
I like the speed with which heat starts affecting your modules, but I think they should be slower to take damage.
Can we redo the numbers on my artillary so I can actually read how much ammo I have left.
Can we have an 'overload all' option similar to the 'reload all' option.
sgb
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