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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Etien Aldragoran
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.28 04:26:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Aries Acheron
Originally by: Etien Aldragoran As RE: question 1, Deleted, ignored, closed, whatever, the MINUTE someone filed a petition asking why these events took place they should have received a reply, NOT have to wait 3 weeks, incur the threadnaught, and wait 2 MORE days to be told ANYTHING about what happened. That is the real issue of this portion of the allegations.
But DS1 sent in a petition, 2 days later, Sharkbait pops in corp, presumably fixes the issue or looks it over, pops out. Petition closed.
If there wasn't a reply to the petition, I suppose accidents happen. This is hardly the material that causes a Threadnaught, without one party publishing this repeatedly, knocking out the forums with apparently a DoS, and throwing it on several major internet newssources as the gospel truth.
Congratulations on missing the point, just like everyone else seems to... There are TWO petitions in question here, the first which Sharkbait acted on, and the SECOND asking WHY he was there. The SECOND is the bigger issue, because DS1 never got an answer out of it, until NOW.
As for the ******* idiot saying crap about making it look like they "Wasted time." Funny I thought Memorial Day was an American holiday not an Icelandic one, plus they had THREE ******* WEEKS to solve this before Goonswarm as a whole got involved.
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Deus Ex'Machina
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.28 04:28:00 -
[182]
Let me get this straight, Kieron.
Let's say i'm friends with BoB,
Let's say Sharkbait is friends with BoB,
Let's say D1 is not friends with BoB and thus i'm not friends with D1 nor is Sharkbait but he's a gm so he's officially impartial. Let's also assume that D1 does not know i'm friends with BoB since i'm in a newbie corp.
Let's say Arkanor is impartial.
So i go one day to D1 to join them, cause my friends BoB told me to. Since i'm clean and old enough D1 take me in. Now i can file a petition for gm's to inspect D1's POS because my friends BoB think there's a titan being built there / loads of valuable stuff there like BPO's / any other reason. Sharkbait needed a reason, something to show to his buddy Arkanor in case something would go wrong, and he can now inspect D1's pos without worries, relaying the info to his friends in BoB.
Let's assume Arkanor can't say to D1 that i filed the petition due to EULA/smoke, but assures D1 that a D1 member filed it.
BoB gather valuable intel via meta gaming, the corrupt gm can't be caught.
----------------------------
This is currently a very plausible scenario, DO something to shed light on the thing, do not bury it under the carpet next to the T20 dead horse. - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude.
True amarr tank shields! |
Shinigami
Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.28 04:57:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Shinigami on 28/05/2007 05:00:52
Originally by: CCP Arkanon This instance was brought about as the result of a player-submitted petition. Sharkbait joined the corporation to investigate and resolve an issue reported by a member of the corporation in question. While the method may be viewed as unorthodox, the information gained is vital to the continued QA effort and enjoyment of EVE by the corporation in question. Our investigation shows Sharkbait was not involved in any malicious or nefarious actions requiring administrative action.
I think the player in question should be investigated also. Find out if he was involved in this scandal in any way. Investigate his forums posts and chat logs in game. His account should be terminated if there is any link between him and the scandal.
I think the whole volunteer issue can be easily solved. Stop giving players that are not on your payroll the ability to act in any official capacity. This includes forum moderation and in game events. Volunteers can not be trusted to be unbiased toward other paying customers. --- Eve Comedy Gallery.
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BlacksouI
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:02:00 -
[184]
Realing who in GS make the petition is a privacy violation is BULL. This is a stupid excuse to hide the fact. If i make a petition for myself and CCP reveal it to the public that is a privacy violation. When i make a petition ON BEHAVE OF MY CORP, it is not my petition it belongs to my corp. The corp's directors have the right to that petition if they want it to be revealed, there is not such thing as privacy violation.
I am patient and waiting for the official investigation of this matter before I have any opinions, but i am mad when you use the privacy inappropriately to make an excuse.
Example, You Arkanon blah blah..all kind bad cursed words... You know what American Journalism call? Free speech! Oh really do free speech allow me to say anything I want? Next time you use that "privacy" word, make sure that you use it appropriately. You dont just represent yourselve
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Richard Johannson
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:15:00 -
[185]
Hello Arkanon,
first of all i would let you know that its nice to get some feedback. Thanks If the investigation is finished please include answers to the following concers in your report:
1. Would you be able to sure find out if the Dev who was in the station took a screenshot from inside the station and relayed it to his buddys in BoB, or can you only ask him about this matter and have to belive, trust him?
2. Are you 100% sure that a Dev can not delete a petition, and why would that not be possible for a person with his access level as a Dev and database Admin?
3. Why was there no response to the petition which was filed to determine the reason of his intrusion?
I am really looking forward to your report, thanks for spending your WE to investigate!
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Richard Johannson
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:28:00 -
[186]
and i forgot one point
4. Can we trust you?
i am only concerned because i guess he is a buddy and workmate of you, so you are not independent, you work for the same company, and the other mates of him deleted all forum posts, banned the people who tried to bring this allegations to light untill it was not longer possible to contain this case. Suspicious for me!
Thanks
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Dominique Parr
Taggart Transdimensional
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:37:00 -
[187]
Wow, I just re-read up on the EULA, TOS and other information found right here on EVE-Online's website. I found it to be an interesting read. And based off of what I have read, I am just amazingly surprised that there haven't been MORE banned users. As it stands the last topic with 140+ pages, there were alot of violations found within.
I applaud CCP for showing the leniency it has in this time of distress.
Oh, and as I understand it. All initiators of the "threadnaught" were in violation.
Originally by: SUSPENSION AND BAN POLICY l. Spams official communication channels, both in or out of game.
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Aries Acheron
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:37:00 -
[188]
There's no reasoning with some of these completely wacky claims.
Are you actually suggesting that the Devs work for an in-game party? That a GM would join a corp and spy, with their powers for one alliance? Last I thought, isn't Sharkbait an Employee, not a volunteer like a GM? Someone with their job, family and food on the table on the line certainly is not going to risk it to give silly help to an in-game party, especially if they didn't need to do that to be bad.
As for the 2nd petition... it's a DS1 member calling the Devs with a petition to fix something. They come two days later and fix it. Then they ask the Devs why they came to fix something. CCP, being busy, ignored it since they were asked there by DS1 to begin with.
The idea that this is some elaborate in-game alliance/CCP plot is really tiring and rather farfetched. We're not even talking about the 'connections' issue that is on another thread... but the idea that they're doing this is just as silly as if someone suggested that CCP-flown Polaris Frigates blew up their mothership fleet. It's too overt, too complicated and too stupid. ~~~
Action! Suspense! Jita! Eve Tribune
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Illusori
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:41:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Princess Morenta Database admin could deleted the petition from database or flatfile if thats where its stored.
If its vis email - delete the email then the petition from database.
Simple ? Or can you explain why this is impossible to occur.
Quite simple to prevent this sort of thing:
- You only allow delete access to the table holding the petitions to a handful of users.
- You mirror all inserts to the petition table to a second database server which has access only given to a different handful of users, and only allows access to those accounts from a specific secured terminal.
- Said secured terminal (even better, all in corp) runs a keylogger monitoring all activity.
- Network connection to the second database is monitored by a 1-way intrusion detection link recording all traffic to a machine that is off-site at an independent secured facility that requires CEO authorization for physical access.
Many companies run this sort of system so that even "trusted" privileged users cannot mess with data without leaving an audit trail, no matter what they need to do to the production database.
Whether CCP do all of this, or some of this, or none of this, is another matter, but it is certainly possible to secure the integrity of a system in this manner.
Personally I'm not going to be cancelling my account over this. I think CCP have made a bit of a mess of handling it, and bound by the privacy agreement and the legal requirements that forces them to operate under they'll not be able to disclose sufficient "evidence" to please some people, but I think mostly those people wouldn't be satisfied anyway.
On the other hand, I think they've responded with a lot of restraint to a group of players launching a DoS attack on their servers, pretty clearly intentionally at a time calculated to cause CCP as much grief as possible. Or does anyone actually think that doing it after midnight on the friday of a holiday weekend the day after a patch that had been pushed back twice was actually intended to make it likely that CCP would address their "concerns" in a timely manner?
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pator gurl
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:42:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Richard Johannson
Hello Arkanon,
first of all i would let you know that its nice to get some feedback. Thanks If the investigation is finished please include answers to the following concers in your report:
1. Would you be able to sure find out if the Dev who was in the station took a screenshot from inside the station and relayed it to his buddys in BoB, or can you only ask him about this matter and have to belive, trust him?
Screenshots, Msn chatlogs, word of mouth rumours are impossible to prove. A dev could theoritcally meet up with a Icelandic Bob member in a downtown Rekyavik bar and hand him print copies of CCP's secret info. There about a billion ways CCP's secret information could be transferred without Arkanon even finding out about it.
Quote:
2. Are you 100% sure that a Dev can not delete a petition, and why would that not be possible for a person with his access level as a Dev and database Admin?
The Eve database isn't some simple database that you can just go and hit the delete button. Deleting an entry leaves trails in audit logs. Removing something form the Eve database isn't like emptying your computer's recycle bin or deleting some database row from your corp's killboard database
Quote:
3. Why was there no response to the petition which was filed to determine the reason of his intrusion?
I am really looking forward to your report, thanks for spending your WE to investigate!
The petition queue is horrible, i still haven't received an answer to my petition which i submitted 4 weeks ago.
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Richard Johannson
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:48:00 -
[191]
Sorry Dominique, but if a software update is released and a huge number of users i.e. has problems with it and all send a request how to install it propper to the same side, you think that is a thrednought too then?
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pator gurl
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:48:00 -
[192]
Edited by: pator gurl on 28/05/2007 05:52:34
Also regarding Darkstar1 corp -
Have you stopped to consider that a player who submitted the petition is on some holiday (Hint it's a 3 day weekend in the US and several parts of Europe) and hasn't visited your corp/alliance forums?
Maybe some Bob guy filed a petition because he visited your corp's pos while he was in a cloaked ship and he still got killed (that happened to me twice)
Maybe someone from the Goon alliance (who isn't in the DS1) corp filed a petition. More than 2k people in the alliance, have you asked everyone?
Also, after all this noise has been created do you think the person will own up to submitting the petition? He'll be crucified if he admits this.
And if CCP tells you who filed the petition then they are breaking their own laws.
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Etien Aldragoran
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:49:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Aries Acheron
As for the 2nd petition... it's a DS1 member calling the Devs with a petition to fix something. They come two days later and fix it. Then they ask the Devs why they came to fix something. CCP, being busy, ignored it since they were asked there by DS1 to begin with.
You really are stupid. At least I'd think that a DS1 petition to find out why a Dev had given himself access to the corporation, when as far as the directors know there was no reason for that to happen would have gotten some attention. Which I'm assuming they included in their petition. Why, you might ask? Because the anomaly of DS1 asking why someone was fixing something they supposedly reported broken seems a bit ******* odd. MEANWHILE you have no proof that the bug report didn't come from someplace OUTSIDE DS1 any more than anybody else has proof that it didn't come from INSIDE DS1. CCP didn't say one way or the ******* other. That means its quite possible that another player petitioned it and DS1 had ABSOLUTELY NO ******* KNOWLEDGE of the first petition, which makes it even more imperative that DS1 be informed as to why theres a Dev in their Corp.
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DEVILSENIGMA
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:51:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Richard Johannson
Sorry Dominique, but if a software update is released and a huge number of users i.e. has problems with it and all send a request how to install it propper to the same side, you think that is a thrednought too then?
Well what goon's did was spamming, reposting the same crap over and over again. There's a difference. --- Eve Database | TQ Server Status Coldfront Come in and feel the chill |
Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:51:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Empyre on 28/05/2007 05:51:29 my aching head.. these arguments are parallel to a child asking 'why? why? why? why? why?' it's flippin MADDENING! when the heck did everything become a freakin conspiracy?!
ccp, seriously.. i know it's not good for your business model but you should honestly just say case closed, screw off. people like this infest every game.. they scream and cry hax every single time they get outgunned or get caught stat padding themselves.
it's an inability to accept ones' misconceived idea that they are always right and is, in reality, mostly the opposite. you've done more than you should have even bothered and it's still not enough (and will NEVER be unless you falsely tell them their diluted fantasies are real). anyone that would leave as a result is, in my opinion, hardly an asset to your and our investment.
People argue when their personal views are at odds, whereas a debate is a more formal method of analyzing the angles of an issue
Removed empty image tag. -Rauth |
pator gurl
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:53:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Empyre Edited by: Empyre on 28/05/2007 05:50:48 my aching head.. these arguments are parallel to a child asking 'why? why? why? why? why?' it's flippin MADDENING! when the heck did everything become a freakin conspiracy?!
ccp, seriously.. i know it's not good for your business model but you should honestly just say case closed, screw off. people like this infest every game.. they scream and cry hax every single time they get outgunned or get caught stat padding themselves.
lol, I like the way you think.
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Dominique Parr
Taggart Transdimensional
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:57:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Richard Johannson
Sorry Dominique, but if a software update is released and a huge number of users i.e. has problems with it and all send a request how to install it propper to the same side, you think that is a thrednought too then?
There is the suspected chance that a patch will not go over well. Thus CCP makes many announcements. They will try to install it Mon-Wed. (unless extreme circumstances). And the chance that something goes wrong, the forums are expected to be assaulted, however. If something does go wrong, the game is most likely not up and there is no "intentional spam"
In the case of Goons, it appears to be an orchestrated event, which from the unintended addmisions of GS members, was the purpose of their actions. It is this that puts them in violation of the agreements they accepted when they scrolled down past the EULA to get into the game.
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Beyond Horizon
Black Omega Security
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:57:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Beyond Horizon on 28/05/2007 05:56:26 Warren Commission
Magic Bullet exists ! It's true ! -
BH |
Etien Aldragoran
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:58:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Etien Aldragoran on 28/05/2007 06:01:22 Empyre **** off. CCP bungled the handling of this multiple times, and the fact that people are angry about it is no surprise. They could have avoided this part of the scandal multiple times by showing A LITTLE transparency at ANY step before this point, but they didn't. Tell DS1 that a Dev will be fixing a bug before it happens, no problem. Reply to DS1's petition telling them that the Dev fix a bug, no problem. Even have Sharkbait or Arkanon post a reply to the VERY first thread instead of trying to sweep it under the carpet, saying that there was a petition that needed to be fixed in that way, no problem.
Instead there was no heads up, no answer to the petition, whatever happened to it, and no answer to the first attempt at getting an answer in public. CCP SCREWED UP, and now they're paying the price for such a monumental blunder.
Edit: as to what I have proof of, I have proof of DS1 directors saying they have no clue WHY a Dev was in their corp, via forums before all this started. I have proof of a Dev giving himself director roles in DS1 via a screenshot. I have proof that CCP gave no indication of what the hell was going on till now from Arkanons own post. I also have DS1 stating that they sent a second petition asking what happened, and not getting a response. THOSE are the FACTS, that I have based my argument on, you're the one disputing those FACTS like an idiot.
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Riho
Gallente Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:59:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Richard Johannson
Hello Arkanon,
first of all i would let you know that its nice to get some feedback. Thanks If the investigation is finished please include answers to the following concers in your report:
1. Would you be able to sure find out if the Dev who was in the station took a screenshot from inside the station and relayed it to his buddys in BoB, or can you only ask him about this matter and have to belive, trust him?
2. Are you 100% sure that a Dev can not delete a petition, and why would that not be possible for a person with his access level as a Dev and database Admin?
3. Why was there no response to the petition which was filed to determine the reason of his intrusion?
1. why would a dev need to join the corp to take pics of the station if he wanted... if the dev really would have wanted to cheat, he would have just gone there and taken pics... why he would risk exposure by joining the corp.
i say this is BS that goons are crying about... and has been said to be legit reason for joining the corp :)
2. deleting logs or petitions. i bet that the games database isnt just some simple SQL code crap where theres no logs about who used it and what he did. and i have to agree what has been said before in this thread. its impossible to change or delete any log or petition whitout anyone knowing about it. that is ofc if CCP has a database system ithat a 10y old made for them :P
3. dunno about that.
--------------------------------------- Sig killed by MODs.... reworking it Great being Gallente... aint it ? ----------------- YARRRR, sig hijack! -HornFrog ----------------- |
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pator gurl
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:01:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Richard Johannson
Sorry Dominique, but if a software update is released and a huge number of users i.e. has problems with it and all send a request how to install it propper to the same side, you think that is a thrednought too then?
Bad patches and Eve go hand in hand. It has happened so many times. You dont see a threadnaught for a bad patch.
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Akrinos LuCont
Gallente Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:03:00 -
[202]
finally! a technical response. and as stated, its a long weekend. and further investigation will take place.
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:04:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Empyre on 28/05/2007 06:09:51
Originally by: Etien Aldragoran Empyre **** off. CCP bungled the handling of this multiple times, and the fact that people are angry about it is no surprise. They could have avoided this part of the scandal multiple times by showing A LITTLE transparency at ANY step before this point, but they didn't. Tell DS1 that a Dev will be fixing a bug before it happens, no problem. Reply to DS1's petition telling them that the Dev fix a bug, no problem. Even have Sharkbait or Arkanon post a reply to the VERY first thread instead of trying to sweep it under the carpet, saying that there was a petition that needed to be fixed in that way, no problem.
Instead there was no heads up, no answer to the petition, whatever happened to it, and no answer to the first attempt at getting an answer in public. CCP SCREWED UP, and now they're paying the price for such a monumental blunder.
lol.. how did they bungle it up? YOU GUYS are the ones asking them to break policy and give you details on the petition. YOU GUYS are the ones claiming that their investigation is absolutely false because the answers don't jive with the way you've already played this non-existant conspiracy out in your heads. YOU GUYS are the ones continuing to cry out for a lynch mob on issues the evidence is clearly pointing elsewhere to.
so i ask again.. where is YOUR proof? the accused generally have to provide proof to back up their accusation in almost any judicial system. so?
you know.. this crap almost straight ticks me off. to think of all this time they are wasting, when it could be being used to better the game. shameful.
People argue when their personal views are at odds, whereas a debate is a more formal method of analyzing the angles of an issue
Removed empty image tag. -Rauth |
Dominique Parr
Taggart Transdimensional
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:05:00 -
[204]
Originally by: CCP Arkanon This instance was brought about as the result of a player-submitted petition. Sharkbait joined the corporation to investigate and resolve an issue reported by a member of the corporation in question.
Why should Sharkbait have to contact the CEO when CCP's assistance was requested? I've underlined the portion of the quote that shows this.
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Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:05:00 -
[205]
Originally by: LymeM
Originally by: CCP kieron
The petition was submited on the 6th of May, Sharkbait acted on the 9th of May and the petition was successfuly closed a few days later. The question that you should be asking is why this became an issue with the corporation three weeks after their player submitted a petition.
The community would appreciate a substantiation of this statement by the posting of the petition in question, with who petitioned it.
You mean Goonswarm, or at the very least, you, would like them to post something that you know damn well there's pretty much 0 chance of them posting.
They snip threads that post even part of a petition, and you're actually asking for them to post a full petition on here? While I think it'd be enough to silence all but the Kugu fanbois, I'd be extremely surprised if they even consider doing it.
I'm sure you're the same way.
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Alois Hammer
Minmatar Hammers Slammers Slammer's Republic
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:11:00 -
[206]
oh i like this......a few more posts about goonswarm making an issue out of this just might derail this post and the answers everyone actualy wants.... i as a corp owner would really love to know what is someones business that is not in my corp to post a pettition about my POS that a dev/gm need to join my corp for in the first place??? since as some here would suggest, they have the power to do whatever they want anyways. and if the dev has to be actualy in-game to do this magical trick , common courtesy would be at least to answer to the corp-person online whats going on.
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Riho
Gallente Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:13:00 -
[207]
Originally by: LymeM
Originally by: CCP kieron
The petition was submited on the 6th of May, Sharkbait acted on the 9th of May and the petition was successfuly closed a few days later. The question that you should be asking is why this became an issue with the corporation three weeks after their player submitted a petition.
The community would appreciate a substantiation of this statement by the posting of the petition in question, with who petitioned it.
why would they break the privacy rules??? dunno if thats enough to loose the license to run this kind of business but giving out personal information to anyone, can get you jailed. ingame usernames are also personal information. --------------------------------------- Sig killed by MODs.... reworking it Great being Gallente... aint it ? ----------------- YARRRR, sig hijack! -HornFrog ----------------- |
Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:13:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Kaplanelle
Originally by: CCP kieron The question that you should be asking is why this became an issue with the corporation three weeks after their player submitted a petition.
Whoa, back up there pal. That's not the tone you take with paying customers, ever. People can have honest misunderstandings, and CCP shouldn't be alledging anything different unless they have absolute proof otherwise.
This was a customer service failure on CCPs part by not having enough customer contact. Why you're takings such a customer hostile stance makes me wonder what your employer is thinking allowing the community manager take up that kind of attitude.
Considering you people waited until the holiday weekend to maximize the damage since you, and your boss kugu know full well people would leave for the holiday, I think CCP is being rather kind. Yes, I'm saying the release of this information was planned by entities hostile towards CCP to cause as much damage as possible. How's that list of 'demands' coming along?
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:15:00 -
[209]
People need to make a coherent argument here.
On the one hand, you say sharkbait and his accomplices deleted a petition directly from the SQL database without leaving a trail and bypassing all their systems.
On the other hand, you still think he had to obviously join your corp with an evemail announcing his presence in order to do whatever it is you think he did.
No. Sharky didn't do anything wrong and you flipped out over it. I don't think any petitions were deleted, and I'll eat my hat if that turns out to be true.
The only valid complaint people have mentioned anywhere in this ordeal (that i've heard) is the fact that BoB members (still) have some msn contact with devs and this just isn't fair to other alliances.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
arghy steelwill
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:16:00 -
[210]
If sharkbait really wanted to fix the problem why dident he contact the CEO and work out the problem with him?, i mean if the CEO could work the problem out by himself then it would be helpful in the future since you could just explain it to them instead of interfereing like this. The fact is your track record is horrendus just forces the point, if this dident happen now it could happen in the future. The complete silence you gave DS1 and your rampant politician like announcements just reinforce the image that you dont care what we say, you CAN and HAVE removed petitions, true you cant delete them but you can make them disapear so by saying you cant delete them you are telling the truth but misdirecting the fact that its gone.
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