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Faol'gus
T Miners
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Posted - 2007.05.29 14:53:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Gutsani
Originally by: Henry Loenwind
A hulk with a skilled pilot mines over 5000m¦ per tick.
mining in a hulk, in highsec? suicide destroyers, problem solved ..
Seriously the amount of hulks in a 0.9 I regularly haunt is fantastic. The more they mine the more I can steal.
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Caffeine Junkie
Caldari Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.05.29 15:24:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Roccia19 Recently I had an indivdual approach my jettisoned container in a shuttle. This person created their own container then transfer over 10,000m3 of ore from my container to theirs.
I find it ridiiculous that a ship with 10m3 of space can move 100x its cargo.
He was easily able to run away without my drones destroying him. I ran off to grab my Industrial to retrieve what is rightfully mine. Upon returning all was clear until I had re-grabed my ore at which point this individual re apeared with an assualt ship and destroyed my ship along with 14mill in Cargo Expander II's.
The developers should look into restricting the movement of an item between jettisoned cans. Something like an individual can only move the equivalent volume of empty space in the cargo seems much more logical than a shuttle moving a large industrial size load.
I always have an alt in a cloaked battleship nearby, its great fun wiping out the ore thief who thinks he has outsmarted you. ___________________
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Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:22:00 -
[33]
Quote: If it's "throwed away" for everyone to take, why do you get aggression? :)
Because there used to be no aggression and miners whined and whined till ccp finally added it. Now the miners whine about the fact that ccp added it. Ironic isnt it?
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:51:00 -
[34]
Would it be completeley overkill to just nurf jetcan mining completeley by changeing barges to have a cargohold that can hold 1000% more M3 if the cargo is only ore?
Jetcan mining was never intended anyway, so theres no sence in complaneing about it.
Seems to me the origenal concept of: mine 1 cycle, warp, dock, unload, warp, repeat - was broken and stupidley tedious from the start.
Also just think of poping a Coverter with 35km3 of free ore inside. -
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Alora Venoda
Caldari GalTech
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Posted - 2007.05.29 17:03:00 -
[35]
yeah, either add more cargo space or make larger secure cans. i think a 15,000 m3 can that can hold 20,000 m3 would be reasonable. or perhaps even a 30,000 m3 can? plus it would be nice to only use one can instead of stuffing 5 or 6 GSC's into your hauler.
1) hauler goes to mining location and anchors monster can 2) miners fill up that can with ore 3) hauler unanchors and picks up the can when done
if there is some reason to keep secure cans small (ie- to prevent placing certain large itms inside), perhaps make these kinds only allowed to hold ore?
the solution is really quite simple.
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Kiyirari
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2007.05.29 17:13:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Roccia19 Recently I had an indivdual approach my jettisoned container in a shuttle. This person created their own container then transfer over 10,000m3 of ore from my container to theirs.
Personnal i find this quite amusing that you let a shuttle sit there long enough to move 10.000m3 of ore into there own container
Some mothers do have them
Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels |
Fafnir Drake
Gallente Boob Heads Haud Terminus
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Posted - 2007.05.29 18:05:00 -
[37]
Ok, main problem here is not the flagging imo. You can avoid that. It's the perma anchor cans sitting all over the farging place. Seriously, 5 times as many cans as rocks. It's been said before. In some belts you can't even anchor a can within mining range of a rock. Largers size sec cans would be nice, but not a absolutly needed thing. Would be a pita, but doable. As an option in any case. Can's need to despawn after some amount of time. Ofc, problems with that along the lines of lag, but how much lag do the cans themselves cost us all? If they set a timer of say 3 weeks, it'd be nice. ------ "A wise man once told me never to argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience." |
Diana deVos
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Posted - 2007.05.29 18:24:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Roccia19 My issue is not with loosing my ship but rather that someone with such a small ship can transfer so much.
I agree with that part. They should have to transfer stuff into their hold to re-jetcan it. To me, it makes more sense to do it that way.
Plus, the measure won't actually stop ore-thieves. It'll just make it riskier because they're going to have to risk more expensive ships to make the flip. Make them think twice and raise it from a Kindergarten level crime to something a bit more challenging. Maybe 3rd grade.
Not that the won't whine. I've generally found pirates and ore thieves to be among the biggest forum whiners, despite their "I'm bad" attitudes and proclamations.
As for the rest, was the 2 million or so in ore worth it?
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Peen Long
Caldari The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2007.05.29 18:37:00 -
[39]
I've always gotten a kick out of "carebear haters" saying "Just get your friends or your alts to protect/re-steal/fight. Yeah let's not allow anyone to be able to solo mine with only one account. Not even newbs that just barely joined the game. I mean sure you can solo pretty much every other aspect of the game from general pvp to piracy to manufacturing to marketing. But mining, that's necessary to the coninuance of EVE since everything requires minerals to build and is what most new players try to do to get money coming in, no lets make that a major pain and frustration.
No matter what genius ideas you guys come up with, there is still one way that absolutely cannot be protected against without going to the absurd. An ore thief in a shuttle can steal from your can and then have his buddy or alt in a hauler immediately "steal" the ore from the ore thieves can with no possible chance of retribution by the original miner. If they are extremely lucky they can steal it back from the second can before the hauler snags it, but then of course they are flagged to the ore thieves entire corp at that point. The only way to prevent this is to have multiple ships, some fully pvp ready, all right there all the time just to protect something as basic as mining.
Anyone that doesn't see how unbalanced that is is frankly a donkeyhole, and doesn't care about the game as a whole just their own interests. Telling a miner not to jetcan is like telling a pvper he's not allowed to activate all his weapons in combat. There are many solutions in previous threads that return the balance to mining and thieving (larger cans, changes to aggression), but hey screw carebears right? All they do is provide the market with stuff to buy.
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Reithan
Caldari Zero Team
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Posted - 2007.05.29 19:10:00 -
[40]
I, personally, think mining's a bit "borked" at this point.
I mean, you have dedicated mining ships, who's sole purpose is to mine a lot of ore...and they have no real way to handle that ore once it's mined.
Sure, you could bring along an Indy - which will suffice for about 1 extra run of your lasers...
You could bring along a freighter I suppose...but that's just ridiculous overkill, price-wise.
There needs to be some sort of in-between.
Giving barges an ore-only cargo bonus, or an extra ore-only cargo hold would probably do the trick nicely, as someone suggested earier in this thread.
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Bistot Kid
The First Thing You'll Ever See
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Posted - 2007.05.29 19:19:00 -
[41]
Umm, am I the only one who's noticed the OP is complaining that a shuttle can perform a switch of 10,000m3 of ore instantaneously?
Most forum posters have Bandwagon Jumping trained to 5 and don't actually read and take in the OP.
------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook ------------------------------------- |
Prekaz
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Posted - 2007.05.29 19:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Siloh Using dictionary definitions of a word to justify a blatant fault in game mechanics is, tbh, a bit meh
It's not a faulty game mechanic just because you don't like it.
If anything is faulty, it's the ability to create such a massive storage container from nothing.
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Bistot Kid
The First Thing You'll Ever See
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Posted - 2007.05.29 19:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Prekaz If anything is faulty, it's the ability to create such a massive storage container from nothing.
Think of it as chucking a bouncey castle into space and inflating it. They aren't at all robust, which is why the pop in an hour (... and a bit).
------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook ------------------------------------- |
Badhands
Gallente Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:16:00 -
[44]
Jetcans are the most risky, yet most rewarding way to mine. Surely you all see why this kind of imbalance can not be tolerated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statement on dev misconduct:
for the record, Darkstar1 has 3 pos in game only, both are and have always worked fine |
Badhands
Gallente Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:22:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Peen Long I've always gotten a kick out of "carebear haters" saying "Just get your friends or your alts to protect/re-steal/fight. Yeah let's not allow anyone to be able to solo mine with only one account. Not even newbs that just barely joined the game.
I think that "newbs that barely just joined the game" could mine just fine into a secure can. By the time you are mining in a hulk, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a friend help you out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statement on dev misconduct:
for the record, Darkstar1 has 3 pos in game only, both are and have always worked fine |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:31:00 -
[46]
If you're mining in something big like a covetor or hulk (and in empire) use some cargo expanders in the lows. You'll get like 13,000 m3 in a hulk and like...6,000 in a covetor I think? It's been a while.
If you insist on jet can mining get a friend in a hauler to loot for you as soon as you drop it.
If you don't want to do that - as soon as your stuff is STOLEN and put into a seperate secure can, do not come back in a hauler with expanders. Come back in hauler with a rack of warp core stabs or come back in a COMBAT SHIP.
Can thieves are using shuttles in order to get you to steal. What we used to do was move stuff with a shuttle into our own jet can (hope into a belt...bookmark miners can...come back and move ore into our own can). Then sit at a planet in a raven/typhoon/armageddon (any bs will do) and scan until the hauler shows up in the belt and then warp on to the can and kill anything that stole ore back.
You robbed him after he robbed you. So he gets to shoot you. ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Ethaet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:45:00 -
[47]
I think that if someone agresses you, you should be able to freely loot their cans, or even blow them up , without agressing them.
For now, just have someone in a bs nearby, BOOM!
Originally by: Phoenixhawk Patching.......... Oh wow look the servers didnt all shut down. Hi-Five another successful patch....Durrrwomp....Hey who turned out the lights, oh look there's light outside the wi |
Peen Long
Caldari The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:49:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Peen Long on 29/05/2007 20:49:15
Originally by: Badhands
Originally by: Peen Long I've always gotten a kick out of "carebear haters" saying "Just get your friends or your alts to protect/re-steal/fight. Yeah let's not allow anyone to be able to solo mine with only one account. Not even newbs that just barely joined the game.
I think that "newbs that barely just joined the game" could mine just fine into a secure can. By the time you are mining in a hulk, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a friend help you out.
True except you cant anchor secure cans in .8 and above. And along comes a thief that scoops your can. The problem is every "solution" that most come up with are "perfect scenario" solutions, when unfortunately those are rare. Many say "just go get a combat ship and blow them up" as if that person will always sit there and wait for you, always being in a lesser ship then you have and he'll never have sent the ore to station already meaning you can get it all back. If you've ever tried to make anything considered a decent profit by mining you know that its generally just not worth it if you can't jetcan mine. It's like trying to make money running missions, but you can never go above lvl1/2 missions. Oh sure, just run a million of them and you'll have lots of money. Who wants that solution?
I am aware of the original issue in the first post, but as usual the "ore thief solutions" are coming out of the woodworks when they really aren't solutions that address the core concept of the problem.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:51:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Marquis Dean Sounds like you did everything wrong. Well done!
It's funny because it's true -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
This is not a signature |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:54:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Siloh Using dictionary definitions of a word to justify a blatant fault in game mechanics is, tbh, a bit meh
Before the flagging change, jetcan mining used to suck because anyone could waltz up to your can and empty/destroy it without penalty. They still can, only now they can also destroy your ship for free at the same time.
lolz?
You get a warning. If you're stupid enough to ignore it or have it turned off then it's your fault. You are never, ever, forced into losing your ship to an ore theif. It's always up to the miner to do so something that gives the theif the right to attack. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
This is not a signature |
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:57:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Peen Long True except you cant anchor secure cans in .8 and above. And along comes a thief that scoops your can. The problem is every "solution" that most come up with are "perfect scenario" solutions, when unfortunately those are rare. Many say "just go get a combat ship and blow them up" as if that person will always sit there and wait for you, always being in a lesser ship then you have and he'll never have sent the ore to station already meaning you can get it all back. If you've ever tried to make anything considered a decent profit by mining you know that its generally just not worth it if you can't jetcan mine. It's like trying to make money running missions, but you can never go above lvl1/2 missions. Oh sure, just run a million of them and you'll have lots of money. Who wants that solution?
I am aware of the original issue in the first post, but as usual the "ore thief solutions" are coming out of the woodworks when they really aren't solutions that address the core concept of the problem.
Not every immediate problem you might face in EvE has an obvious solution. There are many solutions to avoid/get revenge on ore thieves, and most of them involves either blowing the thief up or having friends.
I'd say, if EVERY solution is too hard for you, you'll just have to accept that it's time to move to a different belt/system, start over, and write off the stolen ore as gone. In this scenario the thief won the minerals (most thieves are not really after them anyhow) but you won the right to keep your ship in one piece. Call it a draw, and continue to mine elsewhere.
/Ki
Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.05.29 21:14:00 -
[52]
Maybe they could change it so that when you can flag stealing ore, CONCORD warps in and scrambles you for the full 15 minutes and holds you in place until the victim decides what to do with you.
For macro miners, they aren't there anyways, so you just sit around in your theiving ship un harmed.
For honest miners, who aren't geared out to deal with thieves like this, it gives you time to warp back to the station, get a drink, use the loo, and come back with your nos-domi minicarrier to gankspank the would be thieves.
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Peen Long
Caldari The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2007.05.29 21:40:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ki An Not every immediate problem you might face in EvE has an obvious solution. There are many solutions to avoid/get revenge on ore thieves, and most of them involves either blowing the thief up or having friends.
I'd say, if EVERY solution is too hard for you, you'll just have to accept that it's time to move to a different belt/system, start over, and write off the stolen ore as gone. In this scenario the thief won the minerals (most thieves are not really after them anyhow) but you won the right to keep your ship in one piece. Call it a draw, and continue to mine elsewhere.
/Ki
Like most others you miss the point, blowing up the thief/getting revenge or having friends the vast majority of the time does not leave you with the ore you have been trying to mine (see earlier example). They aren't all bad solutions, they are basically non-solutions that in order to work have to have several variables all perfectly lined up. Move to another system is a non-solution. If ore thieves decide to crash the system you work out of mostly its no easy thing just to up and move all your corp assets, re-do all your bookmarks, run a billion missions again for whatever new corporation is in the station you end up moving to so that you can refine with less taxes, etc. Know why? Because wherever you move all your crap to can just be crashed by more ore thieves in a week, you never know. The core of this needs to be addressed, not the symptoms. There really is no risk whatsoever for ore thieves with a little bit of smarts. Its just not balanced.
You're probably thinking my corp is an example of this because we happen to share a system. Naw, we really don't mine at all so it really doesn't affect us. I'm just objective enough to see a flaw in the balance of the game that needs addressing.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Badhands
Originally by: Peen Long I've always gotten a kick out of "carebear haters" saying "Just get your friends or your alts to protect/re-steal/fight. Yeah let's not allow anyone to be able to solo mine with only one account. Not even newbs that just barely joined the game.
I think that "newbs that barely just joined the game" could mine just fine into a secure can. By the time you are mining in a hulk, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a friend help you out.
A damned mining cruiser find a Giant (micro) Secure Can too small, for a hulk it is simply laughable.
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:27:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Peen Long
Like most others you miss the point, blowing up the thief/getting revenge or having friends the vast majority of the time does not leave you with the ore you have been trying to mine (see earlier example). They aren't all bad solutions, they are basically non-solutions that in order to work have to have several variables all perfectly lined up. Move to another system is a non-solution. If ore thieves decide to crash the system you work out of mostly its no easy thing just to up and move all your corp assets, re-do all your bookmarks, run a billion missions again for whatever new corporation is in the station you end up moving to so that you can refine with less taxes, etc. Know why? Because wherever you move all your crap to can just be crashed by more ore thieves in a week, you never know. The core of this needs to be addressed, not the symptoms. There really is no risk whatsoever for ore thieves with a little bit of smarts. Its just not balanced.
Well, my reply was more aimed at a relatively "casual" (read: new) miner. What you described here is someone who has gone through a whole lot of trouble to maximize his profit within a certain area of space. This player must realize that all his work can and will be threatened by other players in this non-consentual PvP game, and he must act to protect himself and his assets accordingly. If he is unwilling to do so he really deserves to have to start over. It's harsh, but it's EvE.
Originally by: Peen Long
You're probably thinking my corp is an example of this because we happen to share a system. Naw, we really don't mine at all so it really doesn't affect us. I'm just objective enough to see a flaw in the balance of the game that needs addressing.
No, I am talking about a hypothetical player, not your corp which I have some respect for since our war.
/Ki
Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
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