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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.30 01:03:00 -
[1]
Are really awesome, except for the Basilisk, and to a slightly lesser extend the Guardian.
A run down:
Near HAC quality speed and agility[Gaurdian is roughly as fast as a Zealot, Scimitar nearly as fast as a Vaga]. This is unchanged from current.
Fiting bonuses to Remote Armor Rep/Shield Boost/Cap boost modules allow the fiting of multipule large sized units.
More Powergrid and CPU all around
Same Sloting.
Standardized bonuses for shield boosting, armor boosting, tracking links, and cap boosting.[150% range/lvl on cruiser for all, 15% cap use for cap transfer, armor repair, and shield transporting, +5% boost for tracking modules]
Repair Drones are twice as effective[20% repair amount/level on cruiser for specific use]
Full t2 resistances instead of half t2 resistances.
Bonuses are as follows:
Guardian: Cap/Armor, 25m^3 drone bay.
Oneiros: Armor/Tracking Links, 50m^3 Drone bay
Scimiatar: Shield/Tracking Links, 40m^3 drone bay.
Basilisk: Shield/Cap, 25m^3 drone bay.
The Problem
Large sized cap/armor modules mean that the Guardian and Basilisk are underslotted compared to the Oneiros and Scimitar. 4 repair modules is about going to cap out a reasonable setup that also has to be fitted to get away from things, and the 2 extra mid/low slots mean the Scimitar and Oneiros are at a considerable advantage.
However, where the Guardian is much lighter and smaller than the Oneiros while only being margainly slower the Basilisk is the slowest, heaviest, and largest of all the ships.
As well, since Basilisks and Gaurdians are now able to fit large numbers of large remote repair/boosting units, the utility of being able to cap transfer or have extra slots is diminished. This is especialy true since the ships cant sustain capacitor for avoiding enemies and running large numbers of remote reps/boosters at the same time.
For instance. An Oreinos transfers 360 armor/second raw to a target with 4 large remote reps and uses about 60 cap a second at max skills. 5 use 76 and 6 use 91. A Guardian with 4 heals 336 armor/second.
Shield transfers are slightly faster than that at 377 for the scimitar and 365 for the basilisk.
But the basilisk neither has the innate capacitor strength that the Guardian does, nor the speed and agility boosts over its competitor. This means that for reasonable cap outputs[otherwise the ship will be a sitting duck] the Basilisk is slower, less agile, and doesnt even repair as much as the scimitar.
Easy answer to bring them into allignment:
Basilisk needs another low in place of a high.
Guardian needs another mid in place of a high.
Basilisk needs a big speed and agility buff. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Sanctus Maleficus
Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance
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Posted - 2007.05.30 06:22:00 -
[2]
Great analysis. I completely agree, about the Guardian. I've spent the last 3 hours testing setups, with it. Its still 1000 times better than before, but it should be up to par with the other two.
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Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.05.30 06:50:00 -
[3]
The drone bay sizes are a little harsh, 50m3 all round would have been preferable, confining them to using baby repair drones is a bit bleh.
If there is a way to restrict the drone types you can put in the bays on these ships (EWAR and Logistics only) and increase the size to 50m3 across the board or even bigger, it would add an extra dimension.
OP, great analysis.
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mechtech
Entropy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.30 06:56:00 -
[4]
In my opinion, they are all much better now, and they all don't need to be perfectly = (Well, maybe a tiny boost for the guardian)
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Riho
Gallente Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.05.30 07:03:00 -
[5]
i agree.. my guardian could use a mid slot :)
if it was possible for myself to change the guardian then i would change it to 4 hi, 4 med, 5 low :D but id be happpy if i they only changed 5,3,3 :)
onerios is perfect atm and minni one is quite nice allso
basilisk... i agree... ATLEAST remove 1 high to low :) --------------------------------------- Sig killed by MODs.... reworking it Great being Gallente... aint it ? ----------------- YARRRR, sig hijack! -HornFrog ----------------- |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.30 07:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Goumindong on 30/05/2007 07:03:26
Originally by: Hectaire Glade The drone bay sizes are a little harsh, 50m3 all round would have been preferable, confining them to using baby repair drones is a bit bleh.
If there is a way to restrict the drone types you can put in the bays on these ships (EWAR and Logistics only) and increase the size to 50m3 across the board or even bigger, it would add an extra dimension.
OP, great analysis.
Tech 2 repair drones are seemingly in the database now[just added, but i havent checked them out]. Heavy repair drones are a whole lot better than meds[and would probably be unbalanced]. The speed difference is what matters for the intended range of operation i am thinking.
---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Sanctus Maleficus
Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance
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Posted - 2007.05.30 07:15:00 -
[7]
I did notice one thing, however, just now. The Guardian's base cap recharge rate is about 15% better than the Onieros... basically as if it came with a Cap Recharger "built in". However it still has a total of 9 mid/low slots to the Guardians 7. Seems if the Guardian had 8 it would even the odds.
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.30 07:33:00 -
[8]
The guardian should have one extra low/med slot. or 2 lows. something to give it the same amount of slots.
Make Mining Better |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.30 08:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus I did notice one thing, however, just now. The Guardian's base cap recharge rate is about 15% better than the Onieros... basically as if it came with a Cap Recharger "built in". However it still has a total of 9 mid/low slots to the Guardians 7. Seems if the Guardian had 8 it would even the odds.
Midslots = Cap Battery. Guardian benefits less from these. As well. they provide much more than 15% regen ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus I did notice one thing, however, just now. The Guardian's base cap recharge rate is about 15% better than the Onieros... basically as if it came with a Cap Recharger "built in". However it still has a total of 9 mid/low slots to the Guardians 7. Seems if the Guardian had 8 it would even the odds.
The problem with that is tracking links take midslots, so it would actually be giving the guardian a higher cap mod advantage.
I wouldn't mind the guardian's setup moved to 6/3/4 though, but that's me. -----
Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers |
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VaderDSL
Caldari Incoherent Inc
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:03:00 -
[11]
Can't the logistics ships get a cross skill from the relevant support skills?
I know that say Shield Transfer skill reduces cap use, I have it at level 5, but couldn't the relevant ships get an extra capacitor reduction based on the level of the support skill?
Say 2 or 3% reduction in cap use on large remote rep/shield/energy xfers?
I can perma run 4 Large Shield transfers and 2 medium energy transfers, but as the OP said I sacrificed everything to get cap regen.
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage
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Posted - 2007.05.30 14:37:00 -
[12]
Anyone ever notice the range of the Logistic ships remote reppers?
71km for large armor rep & shield xfer.
Your supposed to be far away from the fight, and a pack of logistic ships can always heal themselves better than any officer equipment ever could.
I managed to setup a pure armor rep/cap xfer with the following:
Guardian
5x Large armor reps 1x Large cap xfer Meds: all cap recharger 2's Lows: all cap relay 2's.
With maxed energy skills, this setup runs all day, the same setup with a basilisk replacing the 5 large armor reps with 5 large shield xfers, runs all day too.
If your worried about cap, diasy chain cap transfers between logistic ships, fit a couple remote sensor dampeners to keep people from being able to lock you far away from the fight.
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Sanctus Maleficus
Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance
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Posted - 2007.05.30 16:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Goumindong
Midslots = Cap Battery. Guardian benefits less from these. As well. they provide much more than 15% regen
Yeah, my setup is currently:
High: 4x'Solace' Reppers Mid: Large Cap Battery II, Cap Recharger II Low: Medium Armor Repper II, 2xCPR II's, 2xEANM Rigs: 2x(Rig that increases cap amount, forget the name) -- will do the one that reduces remote repairer cap usage tonight, I didn't have rigging III last night.
Can run all day with 4 remotes, or 3 remotes and my medium. My setup is as if I were the only logistic ship, and I was at max range.
As for getting on a kill mail, I really do think helping-modules on someone in battle should get you on the kill mail. However, I fit a civilian gun and just take a shot at whatever is about to pop, haha. Now I can use some sentry drones or something, since 70k is a long way for some repair drones to go.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:14:00 -
[14]
It seems remote modules themselves got a boost, too. Remote armor mods have a faster cycle time and use almost half the cap as before, with almost the same armor/s as they do on tq.
Glad to see logistics ships finally getting the kind of help they've needed
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Ruciza
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Posted - 2007.05.30 19:03:00 -
[15]
Oh...that means t1 logistics could become useful too.
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm
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Posted - 2007.05.30 19:22:00 -
[16]
How about range? They really should double or triple the base range on the modules, 5k is a joke.
By the way, does anyone actually ever USE tracking links on these things? I can't see how they would ever be at all useful, so as a gallente pilot it feels like our logistics ship is only half useful.
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Sanctus Maleficus
Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance
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Posted - 2007.05.30 19:35:00 -
[17]
I feel even with the new changes, they may be in too much of a dangerous position. Only 75k from battle, you can still be taken out by something fast, or something with long range.
What do you guys think about a module that extends the range of remote modules? I would love to get the range up to the 150k range or even father if I sacrificed repping/transfer amount for range (it still needs to be balanced). You think it would be too powerful?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:47:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Goumindong on 30/05/2007 21:46:42
Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus I feel even with the new changes, they may be in too much of a dangerous position. Only 75k from battle, you can still be taken out by something fast, or something with long range.
What do you guys think about a module that extends the range of remote modules? I would love to get the range up to the 150k range or even father if I sacrificed repping/transfer amount for range (it still needs to be balanced). You think it would be too powerful?
It would be too powerful[and at the same time, not powerful enough].
The tradeoff for the ship is basically attempting to balance speed[Guardian and Scimitar operate about as fast as their HAC counterparts, which means very very fast], EW defence[ECCM+sensor booster], and cap in order to keep away from enemies intent on killing you while maintaining your ability to repair. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.31 00:00:00 -
[19]
Edited by: William Hamilton on 30/05/2007 23:59:13
Originally by: Gaogan
By the way, does anyone actually ever USE tracking links on these things? I can't see how they would ever be at all useful, so as a gallente pilot it feels like our logistics ship is only half useful.
Tracking links seem a little gimped, consuming twice the cap and being half as effective as tracking computers.
They're already stacking nerfed anyways. I can't see any reason why the links shouldnt be at least as powerfull as the CPUs.
EDIT: UNless they got boosted on Sisi....
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage
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Posted - 2007.05.31 00:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: William Hamilton Edited by: William Hamilton on 30/05/2007 23:59:13
Originally by: Gaogan
By the way, does anyone actually ever USE tracking links on these things? I can't see how they would ever be at all useful, so as a gallente pilot it feels like our logistics ship is only half useful.
Tracking links seem a little gimped, consuming twice the cap and being half as effective as tracking computers.
They're already stacking nerfed anyways. I can't see any reason why the links shouldnt be at least as powerfull as the CPUs.
EDIT: UNless they got boosted on Sisi....
No, they still suck. In my opinion.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.31 18:21:00 -
[21]
T2 TL + max skills > T2 TC.
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Sanctus Maleficus
Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance
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Posted - 2007.05.31 19:57:00 -
[22]
Yeah, after some more testing last night, it does seem a bit odd that two of the races ships have 2 more mid/low slots than the other two. Maybe the answer is to give one Midslot to the Guardian, a low slot to the Basilisk, and take away one from each of the Scythe and Oneiros for a high slot on each?
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Sanctus Maleficus
Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance
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Posted - 2007.05.31 22:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus Yeah, after some more testing last night, it does seem a bit odd that two of the races ships have 2 more mid/low slots than the other two. Maybe the answer is to give one Midslot to the Guardian, a low slot to the Basilisk, and take away one from each of the Scythe and Oneiros for a high slot on each?
Just thought of... are tracking links mid-slot items? I'm at work, and its not int he item DB on the site here, hehe.
If so, it makes sense for the tracking-link ships to have extra midslots. However, when those extra midslots are used for cap regeneration, then those ships do infact have an advantage. Perhaps the real answer is that the tracking links need to be high slot items?
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Fergus Runkle
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.31 22:34:00 -
[24]
I fly a basilisk quite a lot on TQ for complex / mission support. Its a very thin ship with everything dedicated to throwing as much shield as I can. The setup can run 4 large s95a and 2 med s95a constantly.
The new tweaks have enabled me to pull the two meds and replace with 2 more large s95a's. No longer needing the pds in low I can fit two t2 cap relays and have another setup that runs constantly.
Oh and I have some drones as well.
I'm very with these changes.
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.02 07:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gaogan
Originally by: Kai Lae People that say tracking link boni are useless don't know what they are speaking of. 50km megapulse range....100km antimatter range w/ 425 II and you hit interceptors...comes in kinda handy.
With max skills and the ship bonus, a tracking link II does not give as much range bonus as a tracking computer II. That's the problem.
When you post something, it helps if it is, um, well, true :)
Tracking link II (logistics 4) Max range multiplier 1.29 Tracking speed multiplier 1.38
Tracking computer II Max range multipler 1.15 Tracking speed multiplier 1.3
Sisi stats ofc, however the effect on TQ is the same with the scrimitar. Tracking link II gives 14% greater effect to range and 8% greater to tracking than a tracking link II, which of course could be increased by logistics 5.
In short a logistic is the most effective unit in the game for increasing weapon ranges, either now on TQ or in the future, especially when you take into account stacking mechanics.
Raptor and Ares Fix |
Tornoon 2
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Posted - 2007.06.02 08:34:00 -
[26]
about tracking links. yes the scimitar gives a 29% bonus with it's tracking links and lvl 4 logistics on tranquility. those are very nice actually.
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.02 19:29:00 -
[27]
Thanks for the numbers on tracking links, I forgot about bonuses....
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Ezra
Gallente Calista Industries Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.06 03:26:00 -
[28]
I think one thing that a lot of people don't realize is HOW the tracking link bonus is applied.
Since the tracking links show their bonus in percentage and not a multiplier, most people assume that the ship bonus is a percentage of that percentage.
i.e. for example, given a hypothetical TL with 7% range bonus on a Scimitar with max Logistics (25%), most people initially expect that the bonus is 7%*1.25 = somewhere around 10ish.
But it's not - it's 1.07*1.25 = around 29% (don't have my calculator with me for exact numbers).
In short - the ship tracking bonus dominates. You'd still get over 25% range bonus if you fit a tracking link that normally had only 1% range bonus. :)
In short, the range bonus for ANY TLed Scimitar (and apparently the patch, Scimi or Oneiros) blows away the TC II, and the TL II on a max skill Scimitar will also exceed the TC II tracking bonus.
As an example, a Megathron with BS IV and seond best named 425s gets 66km optimal with antimatter when fed by a max-skill Scimitar using the best named TLs. Its tracking exceeds that of unmodified cruiser rails. ------------ Ezra Cornell
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B Glorious
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.06 04:23:00 -
[29]
One thing I'd like to ask concerning their survivability,
Just how easy is it to deal with the new logistics ships? HAC resists and speed along with other extra little things, repping people from 75km away? And they rep how much doing it, with or without some levels of cap stability? (haven't run the numbers myself)
How easy it it to pop a logistics ship, with a dozen or so snipers, one on one, with some interceptors, things like that? What about logistics "daisy chains", where you link two or more logistics ships together?
Just wondering if logistics ships will become "cool to have" or "absolutely necessary at all times", and I can't get on the test server right now to check them out, sadly. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.06 05:33:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Goumindong on 06/06/2007 05:32:36 Only the Basilisk and Guardian can really make a good daisy chain. Because only they are able to fit cap transfers, and cant come anywhere near cap stability on a 2+ lar quality tank when fitting resistance mods on the others.
Fortounatly they have weaknesses. The guardian cannot fit much ewar protection in its single mid slot unless it has no propulsion. The basilisk must dump its tank in order to do so.
As well, the basilisk is the heaviest and slowest of the logistics ships in the game. A guardian will be running about 3-4km/s in a rigged speed fit[2 OD, 2 polycrabon rigs and will be rough on cap stability without a daisy chain, and wont have much ewar protection due to the 2 mids, one of which dedicated to propulsion], and a basilisk is 7.5% slower, and ~50% heavier. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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