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KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:25:00 -
[1]
I have been speaking with corp mates and old alliance mates and they have suggested I post this. I have mentioned it a few times in replying to posts but have little feedback so now I am trying a post on its own.
Most of us in Eve base our gameplay on a balance between risk and reward. Our corp produces a few T1/T2 items as well as some POS output. We also need to buy POS fuel, and the POS materials we can't mine/react.
Over the years we have tried to sell our products in various system/regions other than Jita with limited success. Some time ago however we started selling almost all our gear in Jita.
In Jita we can sell a months output in maybe a day or two. We can also purchase all we need for probably the cheapest price in Eve. Thanks to freighters we can move the stuff quickly to our production bases and POS very efficiently.
We are obviously not the only corp to do this. Even the other hub systems can't compete with Jita.
As for profits we could make more in other regions but the goods can take weeks or more to sell.
As for risk / reward its a no brainer to sell/buy in Jita. Why should we sell in other areas when the risk of not selling is so high and the tax's we pay are the same. Why should we sell in the lower secuity systems when empire ganking is on the increase and the pirates just love haulers/freigthers in low sec. Same applies for people buying goods, why risk collecting the goods when Jita is nice and safe(ish).
The tax I pay in Jita is almost the same as I pay in any other system.
Maybe its time to increase sales/purchase tax in the high sec systems and reduce it in the lower sec systems and eliminate it in low sec. 0.0 Tax's would stay the same as they would be set by the system owner.
If people want to buy/sell in Jita and other hubs they have to pay a premium for that. As to what is a fair tax I have no idea, but lets make it an unfair tax escalating over time based on volume. We used to have a corp base in Jita but when the cost hit 5mil we closed it down. I think the same corp base is now hitting 500mil.
I am sure some people will still continue to sell high end gear in Jita but many will move out over time. And lets be honest if we can reduce Jita load by a few 100 players in will reduce lag. It could also persuade folks to sell in other regions when tax breaks could make the difference. Since Invention more and more folks are dumping their gear in Jita for a quick sale.
The current broker fee of 100isk for changing a sell order by 0.01 isk should hurt a little more. I am just as guilty as the next man of checking my orders from 15 jumps away and making the 0.01 change to a buy/sell order. It works for me. Maybe the much proposed "bus" courier service will help but I think we have been waiting 2 years or more for this service and I have yet to see it mentioned in the notes for Rev 2.
If Jita and hubs are low risk then we should pay a premium for this. Its then up to the community to decide what an acceptable premium is.
Now I wonder what the community think?
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:33:00 -
[2]
Well... it would be an enormous isk-sink.
All you'd end up doing, though, is moving trade from Jita right next door to New Cal, and then Amarr (Oris), and then Kador Prime, and so on. A new hub would spring up in under a month.
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Barbarellas Daughter
Lonely Barbarella
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:37:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Amarria Black Well... it would be an enormous isk-sink.
All you'd end up doing, though, is moving trade from Jita right next door to New Cal, and then Amarr (Oris), and then Kador Prime, and so on. A new hub would spring up in under a month.
tax rate based on market volume rather than sec status would fix this?
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Xonkra
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:44:00 -
[4]
all this will do is make everything more expencive as people will add the tax to the sell price
Originally by: Illyria Ambri No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like
*frog clearing throat* "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
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Bazan Kor
STK Scientific Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Xonkra all this will do is make everything more expencive as people will add the tax to the sell price
Which will make things in other regions/systems appear cheaper so people will hopefully move there to buy their goods.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter
Originally by: Amarria Black Well... it would be an enormous isk-sink.
All you'd end up doing, though, is moving trade from Jita right next door to New Cal, and then Amarr (Oris), and then Kador Prime, and so on. A new hub would spring up in under a month.
tax rate based on market volume rather than sec status would fix this?
Seems like overkill. You'd cut overall market volume due to inconvenience, and prices would inflate as traders passed the extra cost / PITA on to consumers, coupled with a decline in direct competition. Systems and clusters of systems that border 2-3 regions would become the new rotating hubs.
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Digital Anarchist
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:50:00 -
[7]
The cure is worse than the disease. Think mercury-laden cough medicine. ---------------- Nerf government! |
Wadaya
Caldari Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:52:00 -
[8]
Delete local from Jita, a fair # of people in the system are just spamming links to contracts. That and have autopilot skip Jita as a passthrough system. Should only end up there if you fly manual or it is your destination.
Wad
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:58:00 -
[9]
I think tax which increases by market volume would be good. The only reason people shop in Jita so religiously is due to the nigh unbeatable prices there. If taxes increased, traders would have to raise their prices, so people would have more incentive to shop elsewhere. And if another hub starts to get too busy, the taxes will automatically increase there too!
The hubs will likely still exist, but atleast theres an extra incentive to avoid them. --------
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Scar3Crow
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:03:00 -
[10]
If they tax jita the market will just shift to the next system along
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Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige 9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:11:00 -
[11]
How can so many people miss the entire point of Eve so completely.
Someone have a little think about why we all hate WoW so much. Because there are alot of binding rules on what we can or cannot do, and we love Eve because it's a sandbox and we have near-unlimited freedom. The moment CCP start introducing 'special measures' to the game to try to force people to do things, Eve will lose some of it's freedom.
Rerouting stargates is one thing, but forcing people out of Jita is never going to be the answer, and the OP is painfully stupid to have not realised that. It's up to the players to sort it out.
---
Originally by: Galack Fyar Burn in a hole
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KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Marquis Dean How can so many people miss the entire point of Eve so completely.
Someone have a little think about why we all hate WoW so much. Because there are alot of binding rules on what we can or cannot do, and we love Eve because it's a sandbox and we have near-unlimited freedom. The moment CCP start introducing 'special measures' to the game to try to force people to do things, Eve will lose some of it's freedom.
Rerouting stargates is one thing, but forcing people out of Jita is never going to be the answer, and the OP is painfully stupid to have not realised that. It's up to the players to sort it out.
Sir,
I think you are a little nieve for not realising the current problems in Jita can not continue. Since invention Jita load at peak times is over 700 and rising.
I am not suggesting CCP stop people trading in Jita or the other hubs but to simply balance the process in the same way that other aspects of Eve are. Risk / Reward. At the moment there is little incentive for me to sell good in another location.
As for me being stupid then your reply was a fine example of someone who lacks the maturity and intellegance to counter the arguments I have raised in my post. If you disagree then please learn to express yourself without resorting to playground and childish petty insults. They are not becomming of you your corp or your alliance.
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Mesuno
Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:58:00 -
[13]
I think this is actually a sound idea. This whole game operates on risk and reward, and many of those rewards are self correcting.
For example mission rewards are self adjusting based on how many people run them, how quickly etc... so harder missions pay more.
Hubs exist because people want the convenience of shopping all in one place. In real life this is the equivalent of a shopping mall, of center of town high street. Local governments often offer incentives when they want particular regions developed such as tax breaks for a certain amount of time. This helps stimulate broader development, and rejeuvenate depressed areas.
In eve their is no such control - tax is the same regardless of whether you are trading in Jita or some 0.0 backwater.
If tax rates were linked to the volume of trade then we would mostly likely still see hubs forming but they would end up being more dispersed instead of being effectively 'superhubs' as they are now.
No one ends up being forced out of Jita unless they decide profits are greater elsewhere.
As for costs being passed on to customers - they can see the whole of the market in their region and they can choose to buy cheaper (less taxed) stuff from somewhere else. If you want to pay the premium for convenience you can. ** ** ** ** ** **
Originally by: t20 If it's not fixed by the christmas holidays, I'll most likely get fired.
- on the forum "!" problem |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:58:00 -
[14]
God ******* damn it no no no. Do you know why people go to Jita? The same ******* reason people go to strip malls which cost somewhat more and take somewhat more effort to get to then ******* Jita in internet ******* spaceships.
Jita is a MARKET hub. People go there to access MARKETS because no one want to fly all over EVEville to buy new stuff especially if they need large quantities. It's not the only market hub, other examples are Amarr and Oursulaert and most 0.0 alliances have small centralized hubs for themselves. It's human nature, deal with it.
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Oriella Trikassi
Trikassi Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: KingKenny The tax I pay in Jita is almost the same as I pay in any other system.
Put yourself in the position of Mininela Erinen (CEO, Caldari Navy). At Jita 4/4, you are sitting on a golden egg. The ISK from station docking fees and taxes is pouring in. I would guess it is a significant percentage of the Navy's income. Yet yours is not a commercial Corp - the Caldari Navy doesn't even have a commercial Division.
The temptation is certainly there to raise fees and earn even more ISK. However the Market is notoriously volatile in this respect - look what happened to Yulai. Besides, all that traffic is a perfect cover for covert activities. If I was CEO, I'd edge tax up very carefully, and at the first sign of an actual drop in traffic (as opposed to complaints) I'd stop.
In game terms? That would be some mechanism that caused taxes to increase at stations with unusually high Market volumes (Trade Hubs) but not quickly or excessively. If Market volume began to fall the increases would stop immediately.
--- Trikassi Enterprises, oiling the jumpgates of commerce since 2004 |
KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: James Duar God ******* damn it no no no. Do you know why people go to Jita? The same ******* reason people go to strip malls which cost somewhat more and take somewhat more effort to get to then ******* Jita in internet ******* spaceships.
Jita is a MARKET hub. People go there to access MARKETS because no one want to fly all over EVEville to buy new stuff especially if they need large quantities. It's not the only market hub, other examples are Amarr and Oursulaert and most 0.0 alliances have small centralized hubs for themselves. It's human nature, deal with it.
Oh Dear,
Another one who thinks proffanity will help their argument, it actually makes you look a little silly, I am sure your better than that.
I think Shopping Malls are great we even have them in the UK you know. Sadly these malls have wonderful lag free parking for 10,000 cars and lag free shopping (except at Xmas).
But lets be honest, the USA does not have 1 shopping mall now does it, it has 1000's but people still buy goods on the high street do they not. As a buyer and seller of goods I have no option but to sell/buy in Jita cos thats where its cheapest, its where the demand is and its almost risk free. I should pay a premium for this, as should my customers.
I am sure the devs have figures but I would guess 80% of empire trade is done in 1 station out of 5000 solar systems. Now that does not sound right to me.
I think we need to expand trade and make it more profitable for trading in lower sec and low sec systems. I know the demand is there but I simply can't compete with Jita on anything other than the basic stuff.
Many have POS's in Low Sec and Empire and yet most will get their fuel from Jita and other hubs. Most will then take their moon stuff back to Jita to sell it. Why?, simply becuase they know it will sell quickly.
Lets build a few more Malls around Eve.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:39:00 -
[17]
ilike beeing able to buy everything at the same place
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Buyerr ilike beeing able to buy everything at the same place
That is rather the problem- if people didn't like it, it wouldn't be happening, would it? --------
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:44:00 -
[19]
If factional warfare pans out as it sounds it might, whereby players are seen as enemies by NPCs in navies opposing the players aligned faction, then new hubs will start to appear. If the trader can't physically get to Jita without being blown up, then they are going to start a new hub elsewhere. So you'll start finding trade hubs popping up in each faction territory. This is what we want.
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Plave Okice
Gallente Combat Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:53:00 -
[20]
Remove all but one gate and make it a dead end system.
That will stop through traffic, as for all the other issues, another hub would be created somewhere else, wtz makes it easy for anyone to fly to any other single system, it's the way it is and it won't change.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:34:00 -
[21]
so... you want jita to be less laggy so you can go there more often - any by that create more lag? -
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Tyrenical
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:35:00 -
[22]
First of all your argument can be voided very easily. You are comparing a country, say the UK, with thousands of shopping malls, to EVE, a small city in real life standards. The reason there are thousands of shopping malls in one country, is that accessing a single location is not practicle when it can take even days to get to a destination in a country. This however is not the case in EVE. The time it takes to get anywhere is relatively small and will only take at most a couple of hours from the farthest reaches of the EVE universe.
People seek oppourtunities to increase efficency in everything they do. Creating a market hub is no diffrent. Why honnestly, do you want to waste your time going to ten diffrent places to get your stuff? I personally would much rather buy it all in one place and for the cheepest price. I know it sure makes my life far easier. And as for lag, The time saved buying everything in one place far outweighs the immensely painful task of waisting an additional hour going to diffrent places to buy stuff.
The EVE market system is based on Free Capitalism, obviously there is a large demand for having a market hub because as even you stated it probably does house the majority of market transactions on any single day.
Also, as jita is the biggest market hub, how can you honnestly expect to match volumes in any other system? Its completely common to have the cheepest prices in the biggest market because there the competion is the most fierce. As volume of sales goes down prices tend to gradually rise as a result, and this is what you see in less popular market hubs, slightly decreased volumes but slightly increased profits. So by selling in a less populated market, you will make more but sell less. Mabye you SHOULD try this, unless you absolutely HAVE to sell your one month's supply in one or two days. _______________________________________________ Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Steppa
Gallente Incognito Inc
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:41:00 -
[23]
Location, location, location.
The more desireable, the more you pay all the way around. I'm all for tying station tax to something like a sheer volume of transactions and adjusting it on a weekly basis.
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KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 14:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider so... you want jita to be less laggy so you can go there more often - any by that create more lag?
With the current influx of players to Jita I am not sure it can handle many more, by the time Rev 2 comes maybe we could see 900 or 1000 players in Jita and that could crash the node. This helps no one.
There is little risk / reward as things stand and its the only profesion within Eve that operates with this model.
I am happy to contine to use Jita, its easy and our corp can make a living from the trade. I think that with 5000 solar systems we need more than 1 major trade hub and as a game we need to encorage better distribuition of goods.
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KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 15:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tyrenical First of all your argument can be voided very easily. You are comparing a country, say the UK, with thousands of shopping malls, to EVE, a small city in real life standards. The reason there are thousands of shopping malls in one country, is that accessing a single location is not practicle when it can take even days to get to a destination in a country. This however is not the case in EVE. The time it takes to get anywhere is relatively small and will only take at most a couple of hours from the farthest reaches of the EVE universe.
People seek oppourtunities to increase efficency in everything they do. Creating a market hub is no diffrent. Why honnestly, do you want to waste your time going to ten diffrent places to get your stuff? I personally would much rather buy it all in one place and for the cheepest price. I know it sure makes my life far easier. And as for lag, The time saved buying everything in one place far outweighs the immensely painful task of waisting an additional hour going to diffrent places to buy stuff.
The EVE market system is based on Free Capitalism, obviously there is a large demand for having a market hub because as even you stated it probably does house the majority of market transactions on any single day.
Also, as jita is the biggest market hub, how can you honnestly expect to match volumes in any other system? Its completely common to have the cheepest prices in the biggest market because there the competion is the most fierce. As volume of sales goes down prices tend to gradually rise as a result, and this is what you see in less popular market hubs, slightly decreased volumes but slightly increased profits. So by selling in a less populated market, you will make more but sell less. Mabye you SHOULD try this, unless you absolutely HAVE to sell your one month's supply in one or two days.
I have tried selling goods in Haatamo, Hek, Pator and even low sec. Sure I sell a few mods and some ammo but volumes are very low. Many people are simply too lazy to bother checking local regions they just head to Jita cos they know they can get it. I even priced some items 10% cheaper than Jita but it made no difference to sales. Thus I moved virtually all sales to Jita. I have the skills to have over 100 active orders and i used to have maybe 70 or 80 active in various regions but no more. I have 10-15 sell orders in Jita and maybe 5 in other regions.
Unless we are encoraged to buy/sell in other regions or systems Jita will simply become too full. Even now i dump the gear in Jita and get out soon as I can. I remote manage the orders from a nice quiet system some 10 jumps away and I don't get the market lag.
I can understand why people like Jita so much its so damn easy and Jita can and will still be used. All I am asking is that insentives in the form of tax breaks are given to those what would like to sell in areas with more risk.
In order to encorage trade in our town the Council gave such tax breaks to encorage more traders to come to town with reduced rents and local tax's. Parking charges where reduced, parking facilites improved and sure enough trade impoved over time. The "local" shopping mall some 15 miles away is still damn busy but people now have reasons for shopping a little more local. I would like the same to apply for Jita.
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Tyrenical
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.03 15:23:00 -
[26]
It will occour naturally when there is a market for it. Taxes, rent, and all those factors only affect it minimally. When there is demand in those systems, a market will develop. _______________________________________________ Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.06.03 15:47:00 -
[27]
I personally buy & sell all my stuff in the 2nd tier hubs like Rens and Amarr. I really don't understand why other people can't do this as well. Nobody forces you to go to Jita. If you want the convenience of a high volume market, then you have to accept the downside of being in close proximity to a high volume of people. Jita is to EVE what New York is to the US, what Mexico City is to Mexico, what London is to the UK, what Tokyo is to Japan. Jita is a completely natural phenomenom. Moving people out of Jita makes about as much sense as moving people out of New York.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:01:00 -
[28]
while its a nice idea it doesnt really fit the eve player driven market model
Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
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Dr Smuckers
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:08:00 -
[29]
Jita is a horrible place. It would be much better for the game if the player base was spread over more space for both server load and better gameplay.
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Gealbhan
Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:14:00 -
[30]
Wouldn't increasing the tax in 1.0 systems hurt new players trying to make a buck?
"Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium. |
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