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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:20:00 -
[31]
I haven't been to Jita in over a month and even then I might spend 10 to 20 minutes max.
The fix is simple. When people get tired of it all they will stay away from Jita. But the funniest part about this whole thing is people are obviously still going there and complaining about the lag.
The fact of the matter is that every person that goes to Jita is part of the problem. Including those who complain about it. If they never enter Jita then what do they care, so obviously they go there.
So Jita is not broken and doesn't need fixed. IF everyone would just stay out of Jita it would be a ghost town and lag free.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:43:00 -
[32]
tax based on population is the only way ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 17:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gealbhan Wouldn't increasing the tax in 1.0 systems hurt new players trying to make a buck?
I don't think new players can compete with established corps/alliances until they get max production skills, Invention skill and freighters.
They can however make and sell the lower end items such as T1 frigs/ammo/mods that people tend to buy locally. I too am lazy and if I need a few thousand missile will tend to buy in station rather than sail to jita and save maybe 20-30k on the cost of ammo. Mission systems are the best for this, I simply don't have the factory slots available to take advantage of it.
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Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.06.03 17:11:00 -
[34]
Interfering with the player market will only harm Eve. Not even CCP has the luxury of being able to change human nature. _________________________________________________________
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 17:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Gealbhan Wouldn't increasing the tax in 1.0 systems hurt new players trying to make a buck?
The thing is that tax, being a percent as it is, only really starts to hurt when the quantities get large. For a new player buying some fittings for his first frigate, an extra 10% on the price is the difference between paying 20,000 isk and 22,000 isk- it's doubtful he'll even notice. The only people whom it'll make a big difference to are those buying very expensive specialist mods and those selling / buying in very large numbers. Nether of whom are very likely to be new, and both groups should be experienced enough to go else where (while noobs are probably just going to buy where they happen to be).
I still think incremental tax based on system traffic / market quantity is the best strategy for helping to disperse Jita and preventing it reoccurring- which has always been a stated aim of CCP, since Yulai.
The thing with Yulai is all they did to fix it was essentially move it's location out of the main travel paths, meaning a new hub was bound to crop up somewhere, wherever the circumstances were right. By dynamically balancing taxes (which are already in the game, so it's only utilising a tool that is already there) it should ensure that market hubs simply can't grow to the size that Jita has before it becomes too expensive.
As it stands, Empire space is several thousand systems or so, with 90% of the population in a handful of systems. Any system that encourages the spreading out of people (even if it only means that the "Jita hub" is spread over Jita and 5 of it's neighbours) is nothing but a good thing, if only for the sake of the servers.
And before anyone else says it, "I like being able to buy all my stuff in the same place" is not a good argument. I'd like a free titan, but it doesn't mean CCP should spawn one for me, does it? What is good for me is not neccessarily what's good for the game --------
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Tyrenical
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:06:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Patch86 And before anyone else says it, "I like being able to buy all my stuff in the same place" is not a good argument. I'd like a free titan, but it doesn't mean CCP should spawn one for me, does it? What is good for me is not neccessarily what's good for the game
Umm, Increased Efficency is a basic human instinct. Easy access to good and services is the backbone behind a civilization. Being given a new car is winning the lottery. _______________________________________________ Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:46:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tyrenical
Originally by: Patch86 And before anyone else says it, "I like being able to buy all my stuff in the same place" is not a good argument. I'd like a free titan, but it doesn't mean CCP should spawn one for me, does it? What is good for me is not neccessarily what's good for the game
Umm, Increased Efficency is a basic human instinct. Easy access to good and services is the backbone behind a civilization. Being given a new car is winning the lottery.
Absolutely it is, you're 100% right. But just because we mere mortals are driven to increased efficiency, it doesn't mean it's whats best for the game. I want to be more efficient, AND I want a new titan.
In most circumstances, we have our desires and drives (in this case for increased efficiency) put up against obstacles and resisting forces. Since theres no major resisting force (unless you count lag) stopping us surrendering to our desire for increased efficiency and all bundling into Jita, we've all ended up in Jita. What we need is something to keep us in check.
So yes, you may be driven by the desire to have your shopping sprees made more efficient by it all being in Jita, but it still doesn't make it what's best for the game. No more than my free titan. --------
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:51:00 -
[38]
Instead of incremental taxes, what if they added incremental lag? For example, when lots of people are in a system, it gets laggy. This would cause people to disperse when the lag gets too high.
Oh snap. It's already in game.
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:04:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Jayson Lee on 03/06/2007 19:07:41 These are probably bad ideas but we'll see.
First ramp up tax rates for all empire systems. Start high, say like 20%. For systems such as Jita, the tax rate stays at 20%, but for other systems with a lower population the rate drops. This idea has already been suggested so its nothing new expect for the rate is universal and drops in less busy systems rather than increases in busier systems (i know, no real difference).
Have tarrifs. Have an increased tax based on race. If you are Minmatar and want to sell in Jita then you have to pay an extra 10% tax. This might help regional markets, or just lead to an increase in alts.
Have import taxes set on all items brought into Jita to sell. I dont if that is even possible to code but if it was, you could add a surcharge to any items thought were made somewhere else including rat/mission drops.
The last bad idea is limit the traffic that a station can handle. If you want to get in to Jita 4-4 then you have to wait in line. Just like any place with high traffic and limited resources, if you really want to go there you can put your name on the list and wait.
I know those ideas are bad, and I am guessing will recieve thier fair amount of flak, if they are even acknowledge.
I think the best thing to do is make certain stations prefered places to manufactor things, ie bonus on materials needed/time to build ect. Then make certain places the best place to sell items but limit the amount of orders one station can process.
***EDIT***
Let me clarify something. Just like in any high demand/traffic area space is at a premium. Limit the number of sell orders that any one person can place and the total number a station can handle at once. If you want to place sell orders in Jita then you have to pay a very high price in order to have your items listed.
When the demand for space goes down then the price will drop also. This should spread things out to cover at least several systems in and around Jita.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:07:00 -
[40]
Anyone ever stop to think that the problem with this is that the system cannot handle it?
I think the software/hardware is broken, not Jita.
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:10:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Patch86 on 03/06/2007 19:08:53
Originally by: Loyal Servant Anyone ever stop to think that the problem with this is that the system cannot handle it?
I think the software/hardware is broken, not Jita.
Yah, but its already pretty much at technological capacity. There isn't hardware alive that can handle 700+ players in a single instance like that without showing signs of struggling. So short of just waiting for IBM to develop some new server technology, other things need to be done. --------
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:24:00 -
[42]
I know this is going to sound CRAZY!!!!! but if you do not like the lag in Jita DO NOT GO TO JITA IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man these posts are really stupid, the whine is essentially CCP remove the other people from jita for me because I deserve to be in jita not them!!
I couldnt care less how bad Jita lags... you know why? I Don't GO THERE!@!!!!@@!@#$@#$!%!#$%!#$%!#$%!#%$!
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 I know this is going to sound CRAZY!!!!! but if you do not like the lag in Jita DO NOT GO TO JITA IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man these posts are really stupid, the whine is essentially CCP remove the other people from jita for me because I deserve to be in jita not them!!
I couldnt care less how bad Jita lags... you know why? I Don't GO THERE!@!!!!@@!@#$@#$!%!#$%!#$%!#$%!#%$!
I don't go there either (my character hasn't actually been to high sec once so far in 2007, and my alt is much ignored), so its merely abstract on my part. I see Jita as a big***** up that everyone complains about, and that could be fixed. And I know its something CCP want to fix, so I like to discuss it any time anyone makes a half decent suggestion.
Thats discussion boards for you- if you don't like to discuss Jita, why are you in a thread with the title "Time to Tax Jita"? --------
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:29:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 I know this is going to sound CRAZY!!!!! but if you do not like the lag in Jita DO NOT GO TO JITA IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man these posts are really stupid, the whine is essentially CCP remove the other people from jita for me because I deserve to be in jita not them!!
I couldnt care less how bad Jita lags... you know why? I Don't GO THERE!@!!!!@@!@#$@#$!%!#$%!#$%!#$%!#%$!
I agree. CCP could be spending time on fixing bugs, adding content, etc. Instead, you have these moths that keep on flying to the flame. No matter how many times you tell them that the fire will burn them, they keep on flying back and screaming "OMG fire is hot! OUCH! Increase taxes or something. Just please make the fire quit burning!"
Nobody is forcing you moths to fly to the flame (Jita). And if you continue, you deserve to get burned.
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parrowdox
Caldari Autaris INC
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:03:00 -
[45]
Congestion charge any1? charge a certain price (nothing too big like 500k) n voila u can enter but u will be charged more if u r there longer than an hour lets say to reduce idle numbers but stil lallow for mass trading hubb
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:14:00 -
[46]
The market dosn't need kicking again. Each time it's kicked, the people who would be best involved in spreading it quit, and the game design itself heavily encourages hubs. There needs to be a positive reinforcement of spreading the market (frex, more manufacturing slots in areas away from the core), and the removal of the major barriers on doing so (frex, sell order limits) rather than another kick in the market's teeth.
You could even considering restoring escrow, because a lot of things formerly sold on escrow are now being sold on the market, in Jita, instead since it's plain not feasable from the time, profit and visibility viewpoints to use the contracts system to do so.
And put a "bypass high volune systems" option into the autopilot.
But don't kick the market in the teeth again, because trade volume will dip sharply and prices rise..and a little of the market might go to the other existing hubs, but the factors which act to prohibit the market's spread will deadstop anything else!
//Maya |
Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:25:00 -
[47]
Quote: I don't go there either (my character hasn't actually been to high sec once so far in 2007, and my alt is much ignored), so its merely abstract on my part. I see Jita as a big***** up that everyone complains about, and that could be fixed. And I know its something CCP want to fix, so I like to discuss it any time anyone makes a half decent suggestion.
Thats discussion boards for you- if you don't like to discuss Jita, why are you in a thread with the title "Time to Tax Jita"?
I never said I don;t like to discuss it. I simply said if YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH JITA DON'T GO THERE! I think it has been the best suggestion in the thread so far. We don't need silly things like tax. some people actually enjoy massive crowds and if that is the case they will hang out in Jita and have to deal with the lag etc.. if you don;t like it don't go
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:28:00 -
[48]
several problems...
1) Technical: coding - you do KNOW the market database is HUGE right? with LARGE amounts of volumes in different stations in different systems in different regions..
I hate to be the dev who code in the self-adjusting tax rate for the whole universe...
imagine the lag each time the tax updates when goods change hands....
This could be bypassed if the tax is updated at DT.. but still, tons of coding, tons of calucation (each item type for each station for each region.)
and most likely cause tons of lag due to having to calculate different tax rates for different stations...
but yeah, even the simplified verison would muck with the database quite a bit...
feel sorry for the dev who is told to code this.
2) people like to get everything in one place. unless all traders who carries many kinds of goods is willingly move their operation and updates/move everytime the tax makes selling it not profitable...
people will still pay higher prices in Jita/hubs...
hate to be the trader who spend hours calculating profit margins (which are already paper thin in T1 ships and modules) with an adjusting tax rate.
I can see alot of traders/manufacturers say "screw this"..
3) the Lag problem will only go away with better hardware and code optimization... any attempt to change human behaviour on a "grand" scale will be like trying to herd a bunch of cats down the street.
if you want Jita to be lag free, tell CCP to give it another node =P
but the tax thing just isnt practical... good idea though, if theres only 1 station per system and maybe 10 different items on the market at max...
-Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:50:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Petrothian Tong several problems...
1) Technical: coding - you do KNOW the market database is HUGE right? with LARGE amounts of volumes in different stations in different systems in different regions..
I hate to be the dev who code in the self-adjusting tax rate for the whole universe...
imagine the lag each time the tax updates when goods change hands....
This could be bypassed if the tax is updated at DT.. but still, tons of coding, tons of calucation (each item type for each station for each region.)
and most likely cause tons of lag due to having to calculate different tax rates for different stations...
but yeah, even the simplified verison would muck with the database quite a bit...
feel sorry for the dev who is told to code this.
2) people like to get everything in one place. unless all traders who carries many kinds of goods is willingly move their operation and updates/move everytime the tax makes selling it not profitable...
people will still pay higher prices in Jita/hubs...
hate to be the trader who spend hours calculating profit margins (which are already paper thin in T1 ships and modules) with an adjusting tax rate.
I can see alot of traders/manufacturers say "screw this"..
3) the Lag problem will only go away with better hardware and code optimization... any attempt to change human behaviour on a "grand" scale will be like trying to herd a bunch of cats down the street.
if you want Jita to be lag free, tell CCP to give it another node =P
but the tax thing just isnt practical... good idea though, if theres only 1 station per system and maybe 10 different items on the market at max...
Thankfull I am not a database programmer but I feel sure that the coding could be done. They do it for station rents and various other calculations. Whilst the market tables would be large I feel sure the devs could manage. How often tax's are updated would be up to them.
People can still use Jita and trade hubs they would simply pay more. Whislt this maybe fine for the low end stuff someone buying/selling 1bil of trit or POS fuel may decide to sell the gear near nearer to the actual POS's or even at the stations they mine the damn stuff.
Sure lag will go away with better hardware but this takes a long time to implement. The issue however is not just about lag in Jita. Its about Risk/Reward and currently selling goods in Jita carries little risk.
Maybe some traders will say "screw this" and move on to other things but I bet most will adapt and even take advantage of it.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:56:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/06/2007 23:58:08 No, a good proportion of the people currently selling that 1 bil of fuel won't anymore, and most of the rest won't sell it on the market. A little will be left over, marked up far more than the tax increase. It's been seen before, stop kicking what's left..the market's sick enough as it is without more stick. Carrot
There is no way to "take advantage" of your profit margins being destroyed by tax in any of the places where anything sells. Even 5% more tax will mean most T1 items are not worth selling, ffs... (And no, tax dosn't NEED to be done that way, but it's how CCP have done it despite protests...)
//Maya |
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MehTheTrader
University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:58:00 -
[51]
reason I go to jita is so I can fit my entire ship in one station, has nothing to do with the prices tbh.
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Futuris
Minmatar Nano Ltd
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:16:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Futuris on 04/06/2007 00:15:58 Why would anyone want this change and what would it fix at all? I just don't see a point except that it nerfs the player economy and introduces an isk sink.
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KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/06/2007 23:58:08
.....
There is no way to "take advantage" of your profit margins being destroyed by tax in any of the places where anything sells. Even 5% more tax will mean most T1 items are not worth selling, ffs... (And no, tax dosn't NEED to be done that way, but it's how CCP have done it despite protests...)
There is a way to take advantage of the proffit margins being affected by higher tax. Sell it in low tax systems or increase the price in high tax systems.
People wont bat an eye lid paying an extra 10k or 20k for ammo or a mod or even paying an extra million or 2 for the good stuff, if they need it ASAP.
Many however could box clever and move stuff to regions of conflict and/or demand. POS fuel in Jita has to be bought in and then shipped out to lower sec systems. Why not sell the stuff where the demand is?
Buy orders could be better used by both traders and customers to encorage people to deliver the goods at a fair price and for lower sales/purchase tax.
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KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: MehTheTrader reason I go to jita is so I can fit my entire ship in one station, has nothing to do with the prices tbh.
I do as well and would be willing to pay a premium for the convience.
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Tyrenical
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:20:00 -
[55]
The market in jita developed naturally. 4 years ago jita was not a market hub. Does that not tell you SOMETHING? _______________________________________________ Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/06/2007 23:58:08 No, a good proportion of the people currently selling that 1 bil of fuel won't anymore, and most of the rest won't sell it on the market. A little will be left over, marked up far more than the tax increase. It's been seen before, stop kicking what's left..the market's sick enough as it is without more stick. Carrot
There is no way to "take advantage" of your profit margins being destroyed by tax in any of the places where anything sells. Even 5% more tax will mean most T1 items are not worth selling, ffs... (And no, tax dosn't NEED to be done that way, but it's how CCP have done it despite protests...)
Well, the way to deal with your profit margins being eaten into by tax would be to sell it in another system without the tax. Thats kind of the point of the OP, I think
On the whole though, I do agree that carrots are better than sticks at things like this. But I haven't seen any good carrot suggestions worth backing- you increase production slots in some backwater region, people will just haul it to Jita when its done (all of 20 minutes work, with WTZ). I hated Escrow with a passion, so I don't see why that should be brought back (if they could just make the contract system easier to browse multi region, that would be nice). The autopilot detour thing is quite a smart step, but I doubt it'll help much in the long run, other than meaning less unwilling souls will be subjected to the shrivelled up Jita node.
And I really don't buy in to the fact that there will be "less trade" if theres a tax. If I need a Battleship fitted with rail guns and drones and armour and webbers and so forth, I need to buy all those things. There being a tax won't stop anyone buying anything they were going to buy before, even if it means that Jita ISN'T 10% cheaper than the rest of the galaxy any more. It might just mean that sellers won't be able to sell so many times cheaper in Jita than anywhere else, forcing them to put their prices up. So, people will be encouraged to shop around the other 1000 star systems a bit more. Tragic. --------
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KingKenny
Minmatar Under The Edge
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:24:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Futuris Edited by: Futuris on 04/06/2007 00:15:58 Why would anyone want this change and what would it fix at all? I just don't see a point except that it nerfs the player economy and introduces an isk sink.
It would add an element of risk/reward to the trader profession.
It would encorage traders to sell in other systems and regions as well as lower sec areas.
It would encorage the big buyers to place their buy orders outside higher sec system to reduce their sales tax thus encoraging traders to deliver the goods for an increase in profits due to lower sales tax.
It would reduce lag in Jita and other systems.
It would add an ISK sink to the game.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:31:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/06/2007 00:32:11 KingKenny, that risk allready exists. From other players. And it'd "encourage" traders to quit the game because they've been nerfed in a fundermental way again - they can't guatanree any level of profit from anything, or even there will BE profit, when they've allready taken the risks. "Big buyers" will be encouraged not to use the market all at, is all. ISK sinks on their own are NOT GOOD. Unless there is an active need for them, that just means a corresponding ISK faucet needs to be upped. And the inflation in Eve is via CCP's deliverate choices, nothing else.
Patch86, the thing is - escrow worked. Contracts don't. They're 1000% harder to use and browse.
"And I really don't buy in to the fact that there will be "less trade" if theres a tax."
Every single nerf to trade, however minor, has caused a major drop in the volume of market trading. A massive nerf like this? Come on. And Jita isn't cheaper than elsewhere NOW for most items, ffs.
"Well, the way to deal with your profit margins being eaten into by tax would be to sell it in another system without the tax."
Okay, and then other people move there, and suddenly you're losing 5% on each item sold because the tax rate got cranked on you. Sigh. No, the answer is people will retreat from using the market, and given the uselesness of the contracts system, that means direct selling - usually to alliances, completely cutting out the average buyer.
//Maya |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:50:00 -
[59]
Patch86,
There WILL be hubs. This is pretty simple group dynamics. But at the very least, there should be one hub per visibility group (region). And yes, people will quit if you make it too annoying to get all the items they want together - Jita's about the only place for that, and the current game mechanics mean that can't change very easily!
"Jita's prices have always been historically far cheaper."
I disagree with what you said. PS, Hammerhead II's price is (or was until recently) artifically high anyway.
//Maya |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.04 01:05:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Patch86,
There WILL be hubs. This is pretty simple group dynamics. But at the very least, there should be one hub per visibility group (region). And yes, people will quit if you make it too annoying to get all the items they want together - Jita's about the only place for that, and the current game mechanics mean that can't change very easily!
"Jita's prices have always been historically far cheaper."
I disagree with what you said. PS, Hammerhead II's price is (or was until recently) artifically high anyway.
Its fair enough, if thats your view. If you're of the opinion that, if denied a hub to shop in, people will simply quit the game, then I can understand your objections. I just don't agree on that conclusion. --------
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