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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:22:00 -
[1]
I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase.
Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game.
Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?)
So what up with the exception??
Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts.
The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed.
Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without.
CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel.
Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it??
WHY? That of all things should be free.
If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE.
Not the right direction in my opinion.
Thoughts?
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PostWithYourMain
Main Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:23:00 -
[2]
Nobody would pay money for it, case closed.
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Jason Marshall
Hammer Of Light
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:24:00 -
[3]
Im fine with it. Im sure its not a for profit thing.
Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:25:00 -
[4]
Paying for a physical book?
I'm fine with that--do you realize the cost and hassle of printing and shipping such a thing? Their time is worth money you know; they deserve some profit.
--23 Member--
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:28:00 -
[5]
Originally by: PostWithYourMain Nobody would pay money for it, case closed.
It not the book thats the issue. It's the fact that CCP is allowing a independent party to charge for EvE related third party products.
Once that happens, how much longer do you thing EvE Mon would be free? Or any of the other popular tools?
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Kvarium Ki
legion of qui Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:29:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Kvarium Ki on 05/06/2007 02:29:17 Nothing wrong with that at all, I wish him the best of luck and I hope more people come up with interesting products based on EVE.
KK.
Edit. So what if EVEMon goes pay to use? People work on this, they deserve compensation if there is a market for there product. If you don't like it then you don't have to buy it.
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Jason Marshall
Hammer Of Light
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:30:00 -
[7]
I should really plug my Eve-chess set, but there are no plans to sell any of it. Altho :D if your going to Penny Arcade Expo this year, you might see some of it.
Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Paying for a physical book?
I'm fine with that--do you realize the cost and hassle of printing and shipping such a thing? Their time is worth money you know; they deserve some profit.
Serenity Steele could supply the book for free via PDF and allow us to print it ourselves should be an option. It isn't.
This is a money making enterprise for Serenity Steele and should NEVER be allowed by CCP.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Dark Shikari Paying for a physical book?
I'm fine with that--do you realize the cost and hassle of printing and shipping such a thing? Their time is worth money you know; they deserve some profit.
Serenity Steele could supply the book for free via PDF and allow us to print it ourselves should be an option. It isn't.
This is a money making enterprise for Serenity Steele and should NEVER be allowed by CCP.
And I could buy it and upload scanlations for everyone to download.
--23 Member--
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kvarium Ki Edit. So what if EVEMon goes pay to use? People work on this, they deserve compensation if there is a market for there product. If you don't like it then you don't have to buy it.
The creators of EvEMon only have a product because of the intelectual property of CCP. They use CCP resources and put load on the servers. If they started to charge for their service it would be tatamount to stealing.
Unless of course they 'negotiate' with CCP to charge us for it and give CCP a slice of the action as compensation.
How would you like that?
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Erfnam
Time Cube Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:47:00 -
[11]
It's no different from a third party releasing a strategy guide from a game or paying to using concepts or art belonging to a company. Licensing IP is a very good source of income, which means more money for salaries and future games. Players are not required to purchase the books and those who do purchase do not really gain an edge over those who do not purchase. Ombey offers a free alternative. I think the book shows good business initiative and I would expect nothing less from Serenity. Sales: Capital Ships | Covetors Delivered - Bulk/Package/BYOM |
Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Erfnam It's no different from a third party releasing a strategy guide from a game or paying to using concepts or art belonging to a company. Licensing IP is a very good source of income, which means more money for salaries and future games. Players are not required to purchase the books and those who do purchase do not really gain an edge over those who do not purchase. Ombey offers a free alternative. I think the book shows good business initiative and I would expect nothing less from Serenity.
I knew someone would present this arguement.
So if I took these forums, distilled them down and presented them in a book format, slapped "The Unofficial Guide to EvE" and sold it on Amazon you would be ok with that?
Intelectual property belongs to CCP. They have the right to say what gets to be used and what does not. Serenity Steele plans to make this an exclusive profit making adventure for himself while using these forums and resources to do so.
Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Why should Serenity Steele get away with it especially when his product is nothing more than a 'cut and paste' of in game information?
Business initative sure, I'll give him that. Good for the EvE community? You bet your boots it is not! It sets a VERY bad precedent about having to pay for third party tools.
Shame on CCP for allowing this to go ahead.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.05 02:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY.
Says who?
Why couldn't I make my own mapbook, get CCP's permission, and sell that too? What's stopping me?
--23 Member--
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xxShadexx
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:00:00 -
[14]
Then dont buy it...
Case concluded?
-----------------------------------------
I wish I could change my name... |
Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:01:00 -
[15]
CCP have a licensing policy you know so CCP would more than likely make some money from being able to sell a map book, as was pointed out he's going to go through the hassle of printing it up and having a stock of them to sell and its not mandatory to buy one nor will you lose out by not buying it, either give us the real reason you're annoyed (He beat you to it sucks to be second best i know but it happens) or give it a rest. ---------
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Hajyt
Caldari EnTech Pax Familia
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:02:00 -
[16]
If it's all digital, nobody will pay for it.
If it's an actual printed book, then...what is so wrong with that? Diehard Eve fans would probably enjoy it. CCP isn't making you buy this book, and if you don't want too...then...don't. Not seeing a problem here.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY.
Says who?
Why couldn't I make my own mapbook, get CCP's permission, and sell that too? What's stopping me?
At the moment CCP. Read their EULA.
B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
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Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY.
Says who?
Why couldn't I make my own mapbook, get CCP's permission, and sell that too? What's stopping me?
At the moment CCP. Read their EULA.
B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
Hence the reason he's negotiating with CCP the producers of said game and owners of said EULA, if CCP say yes then thats different but that EULA section just say's you can't do it without permission. ---------
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cypherous Hence the reason he's negotiating with CCP the producers of said game and owners of said EULA, if CCP say yes then thats different but that EULA section just say's you can't do it without permission.
Too fast for my edit.
That's what I am upset about. CCP is condoning this for one special person while preventing everyone else. Once the genie is out of the bottle we will see all the other creators asking "why cabn't I get paid".
CCP will probably say yes to them and the EvE community will end up paying for everything which is currently free now.
THAT is the threat to the EvE community.
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War Bear
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: PostWithYourMain Nobody would pay money for it, case closed.
It not the book thats the issue. It's the fact that CCP is allowing a independent party to charge for EvE related third party products.
Once that happens, how much longer do you thing EvE Mon would be free? Or any of the other popular tools?
You do realize that CCP pays third parties for stuff like oh ... publishing EON magazine or their posters or the other stuff in their stores? Bunch of bloody negative nancys around here I swear.
If CCP says its fine then there is no problem. Their EULA says different? Guess what, they wrote the damn thing and can change if should they feel the desire to do so.
Everything is funny with the Benny Hill theme song |
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Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
CCP will probably say yes to them and the EvE community will end up paying for everything which is currently free now.
THAT is the threat to the EvE community.
Its not a threat, if you want to use something someone else spent time making then pay for it, if you don't want to pay you don't have to use it, many thinks will remain free but for things like this book i support the idea considering it would be a physical book that might potentially be one of the surviving records of what EVE was like should it ever fail and personally i think thats a good idea. ---------
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Gerard Deneth
Caldari Drake's Drummers
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
So if I took these forums, distilled them down and presented them in a book format, slapped "The Unofficial Guide to EvE" and sold it on Amazon you would be ok with that?
If you talked to everyone whom you culled the information from, then yeah, I'd be alright with that. If you too my concepts and words and used them without permission, then no.
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Intellectual property belongs to CCP. They have the right to say what gets to be used and what does not. Serenity Steele plans to make this an exclusive profit making adventure for himself while using these forums and resources to do so.
Seeing as how how he's negotiating with the IP holders for permission of this sale, he's quite in the green to do this. I can't see how he's using this forum to acquire information, however. Unless you're implying that this forum is the only place one can find the location of 4/10 Guaristas complexes...
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Why should Serenity Steele get away with it especially when his product is nothing more than a 'cut and paste' of in game information?
Business initiative sure, I'll give him that. Good for the EvE community? You bet your boots it is not! It sets a VERY bad precedent about having to pay for third party tools.
Nobody's allowed to RELEASE their products WITHOUT consent of the IP holder. They could design something for their own personal use and probably get away with it, but as soon as they begin releasing it out there, they WILL get into crap for IP violations.
Next off, while his information is, at a core, information available in-game, it is NOT easily accessible or referencable in game. Can you tell me the nearest losec system from Ruvas, or where some of the better bottlenecks are in Lonetrek? not at a glance I'll bet. But maps do this quite nicely. In short, Steele has perceived a 'need', put in the effort to create a product and gotten the permission to sell it. If there is an actual need for the item, then it will sell, and those who have it will make use of it. Or just have it on their coffee table looking cool.
As well, last I checked it isn't -essential- for everyone to have this. For most people, their own knowledge and the EVE in game map work quite nicely. They may even have more detailed, annotated maps.
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:23:00 -
[23]
I'm not sure what you are worried about. This product has a very limited chance of success as it stands right now. The only folks who may even think about buying it would be;
1. Those folks who want a hardcopy and do not have a printer. 2. Newbies who don't now about all the good free resources available.
For this product to succeed they would need to get everyone to delete their copy of Omby's 2d map pdf, either payoff Chirba to stop hosting the file or payoff Omby to pull his free version off the net. Both of which will cut into their profits for something that may never sell at all. And assumming it does sell what is to stop CCP from buying the rights to the book and selling it themselves.
----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Sazumaan Johnza
Minmatar Skill Level Six Ground Zeero
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:23:00 -
[24]
This is not a threat on the basis that not all 3rd party products lend themselves to such a strategy. Example EveMon, produced by a number of different contributors on an opensource framework. They may never wish to charge for it as it goes against the spirit of the work. But perhaps one day they will...and see the number of people using it drop dramatically. Who knows. But what have you done to help the EveMon programmers..? They have spent many long nights coding, testing, releasing...months of effort. For free, which is entirely their choice. Have you put in an equivalent effort for the community?
I have absolutely no problem with Serenity's efforts being rewarded financially.
And to all those who think you can do it better...please by all means challenge Serenity.
Such competition will ensure v2 is better in quality and possibly price, too. "Eve is more filling than roast steaks slowly grilling over a rotating fire whilst marinating in a combination of Australian fruity wines and the best imported herbs..." - SChimera [16.4.07] |
Kvarium Ki
legion of qui Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Kvarium Ki Edit. So what if EVEMon goes pay to use? People work on this, they deserve compensation if there is a market for there product. If you don't like it then you don't have to buy it.
The creators of EvEMon only have a product because of the intelectual property of CCP. They use CCP resources and put load on the servers. If they started to charge for their service it would be tatamount to stealing.
Unless of course they 'negotiate' with CCP to charge us for it and give CCP a slice of the action as compensation.
How would you like that?
I got no problem with that, it's called free enteprise.
If EVEMon goes pay to use I guess YOU could make a free one and give it to everyone.
KK.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cypherous if you want to use something someone else spent time making then pay for it,
That's not how online game communities operate. Many tools have been produced over the years for EvE by many talented and creative people. CCP made it clear to them in order for them to do so they are forbidden to charge for their efforts.
They went ahead anyway. Why? Ask them but I'd suggest they enjoyed it and the kudos that went with it.
CCP protected their intelectual property and the community from professional sharks by preventing their IP from being exploited. (And the customer from being exploited for that matter.)
What's to stop this Serenity from taking pre-orders for books raking in the cash and claiming company failure?? Nothing. As a independent third party Serenity has no affiliation to CCP and accordingly, CCP customers are exposed to his potential risk.
No. It is clear that making ANY third partys tools subject to a fee utilising EvE intelectual property is plain dangerous for us the customers.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:31:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:30:23
Originally by: Orvas Dren Ever consider that he may or may not be in talks with them to have them publish and sell the book while he takes a portions of the profits for his part in its creation?
That would be perfectly legal under the EULA.
And I'd have no problem with that either. However if you read his post that is not his intent or plans.
His plans: He prints and supplies it. No free version. You pay. You may or may not recieve a copy CCP denines to get involved as you delt with a third party He buys a car Greater EvE community suffers.
(Some of this is spectulative)
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Svengali
MASS
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:38:00 -
[28]
Good for him (not the trolling bits about not shipping; the real product bits).
I anxiously await your free replacement. -- Svengali |
Approbation
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:42:00 -
[29]
Wiggly-Wuggly,
I think you are being dramatic and paranoid. Your fears are not born out by the wider software community. Free as in Beer is typical in the software world.
Advice to you Wuggly-Jugglies:
Let him publish his book. Calm down. Don't buy a copy.
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Luigi Thirty
Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:43:00 -
[30]
Eve over, map = very yes ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
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