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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
LinBadar
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:44:00 -
[31]
Just sounds to me that someone is vexed and forced to vent because they didn't think of it first....
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:46:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase.
Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game.
Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?)
So what up with the exception??
Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts.
The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed.
Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without.
CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel.
Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it??
WHY? That of all things should be free.
If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE.
Not the right direction in my opinion.
Thoughts?
QFT!!!!
Make Mining Better |
Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:46:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:45:54
Originally by: Svengali not the trolling bits about not shipping
Do you deny this is risk to consider?
Personally when I buy something off ebay I have real concerns if it is going to arrive or not. Why would this be any different?
CCP knew better than to expose it's player base to 'pay for use' third parties like this from the outset. This is why they said you are not allowed to charge for such services. They should stick by their guns and say NO to this.
Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces.
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Mr Adequate
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:51:00 -
[34]
What a lot of panic for nothing.
If you like a 2D free version just go to:
http://www.ombeve.co.uk/
They are most complete.
I use these at the moment as eve's internal map seriously sucks when planning trade routes or just navigating. But they are very hard to read when printed on my Laserjet.
http://www.eve-maps.com/
These maps look much better -- and I'd be happy to have a ring binder with them on my desk. Its a luxury item, not a necessity. If Serenity earns a buck for his hard work and up front risk in printing these I don't mind. He has to split this with CCP as its their IP he is using.
And the argument about being cheated -- well that only works once. That's why we have these forums. For balanced and informed discussions.
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:53:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces.
There already is a free version available Ombey's 2d Maps ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:58:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:57:07
Originally by: Mysticaa
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces.
There already is a free version available Ombey's 2d Maps
How much longer do you think they are going to stay free once they see Serenity is getting paid for his?
I am not concerned about Serenitys product so much as I am concerned about the state of future development of third party tools / services.
Once one gets paid for their efforts... everyone derserves to get paid. Thats fair.
But we the community loses if that happens.
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Approbation
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Posted - 2007.06.05 03:58:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:45:54
Originally by: Svengali not the trolling bits about not shipping
Do you deny this is risk to consider?
Personally when I buy something off ebay I have real concerns if it is going to arrive or not. Why would this be any different?
CCP knew better than to expose it's player base to 'pay for use' third parties like this from the outset. This is why they said you are not allowed to charge for such services. They should stick by their guns and say NO to this.
Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Plenty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces.
I think blanket rules are greatly destructive. CCP should reserve the right to allow whomever they see fit to market EVE related products. That way they can manage the balance between providing third party products to the eve community and not creating this double-tier of users that-have and users that have-not.
Reality is if you provide financial incentive to the community things will be made that may not have otherwise been made. There are still many EVE users who enjoy boutique products and would pay for them. This situation is also illustrated in the free software community.
I think it should be up to CCP to manage this balance rather than giving a flat out no to any potential product manufacturer. EVE itself after all is designed to mimic a realistic economy (this is not a comment on the success of that facsimile!).
What you promote is not in the spirit of EVE itself.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Approbation There are still many EVE users who enjoy boutique products and would pay for them.
Like cash for ISK for example.
Just because their is a market for it doesn't mean that it is a good thing.
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Mysticaa
Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly How much longer do you think they are going to stay free once they see Serenity is getting paid for his?
And how many copies do you think will get sold when a free one is available? From a buisness stand point this venture has very little chance of succeeding so why worry about it? ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here?
Originally by: Tao Han
"TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!!
Sig snatched by Xorus
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Approbation
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Approbation There are still many EVE users who enjoy boutique products and would pay for them.
Like cash for ISK for example.
Just because their is a market for it doesn't mean that it is a good thing.
You are either being disingenuous or ignorant. I would look up what Boutique means in regards to commercial exercises. ISK farming is more akin to the actions of Nike, Ford, Monsanto etc, rather than traditional Boutique commerce. Think limited stock high quality luxury items.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:17:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 04:17:59
Originally by: Approbation You are either being disingenuous or ignorant.
And I think you are totally missing the point.
Getting paid for third party products either as mass market or boutique products is against the EULA except as we now see for Serenity. Nobody else is currently allowed to sell third party EvE related products. NOBODY.
What Serenity is doing is making a new standard. Even if he sells none it opens the door for all the other suppliers to 'negotiate' with CCP to tack on a charge for their products / services.
Everything that once was free may become 'pay for access'.
I for one do not want to see that happen to EvE.
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Approbation
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:21:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 04:17:59
Originally by: Approbation You are either being disingenuous or ignorant.
And I think you are totally missing the point.
Getting paid for third party products either as mass market or boutique products is against the EULA except as we now see for Serenity. Nobody else is currently allowed to sell third party EvE related products. NOBODY.
What Serenity is doing is making a new standard. Even if he sells none it opens the door for all the other suppliers to 'negotiate' with CCP to tack on a charge for their products / services.
Everything that once was free may become 'pay for access'.
I for one do not want to see that happen to EvE.
You are now repeating old conversation. I already addressed this, as did others. I do not see how one can miss a point already addressed.
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BubbaZanetti
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:28:00 -
[43]
Do some reading on fair use doctrine, transformative works, and non-sustantial reproduction. I think a case could be made that he can make whatever map books he wants without any sort of official licensing. That's not to say he wouldn't be sued and fail to defend himself, but it seems me that he's covered.
If you don't like the fact that his information rich form of maps are only available for a fee, produce your own work and make it available at no cost. No one is stopping you.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Approbation I do not see
Clearly.
You say you you want CCP to manage the balance between providing third party products to the eve community and not creating this double-tier of users that-have and users that have-not.
You support the development of products that only the limited few would want / can afford.
How on gods green earth would this NOT create a tiered userbase?? You contradict yourself with the same breath!
CCP has a management system in place to take care of this already. It is the EULA stating you can not SELL anything related to EVE online, in forums etc.
Thats what keep a everyone equal and on the same footing. You want limited development of tools of the excelusive few that would / can afford to pay for them.
I assure you CCP would NOT want a segment of the userbase to have that advantage over the others. This is why I am shocked they are considering this 'proposal' of Serenity.
All I ask them to do is for CCP to uphold the EULA that binds us all as equals in this game. No special treatment for individuals no matter how hard they 'work' for the game. pleanty of others have sacrificed their time effort and energy without demanding compensation. What makes Serenity, or this product so special?
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 04:36:00 -
[45]
Originally by: BubbaZanetti
Do some reading on fair use doctrine, transformative works, and non-sustantial reproduction. I think a case could be made that he can make whatever map books he wants without any sort of official licensing. That's not to say he wouldn't be sued and fail to defend himself, but it seems me that he's covered.
He's welcome to try that. I am more concerned that CCP may give this the stamp of approval including the 'cost to aquire' aspect.
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Mithrandir TFC
Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:00:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Mithrandir TFC on 05/06/2007 04:59:42 the difference between that and a prima strategy guide? don't see any. And don't see any problem with it
And i dont see them saying YOU HAVE TO BUY IT. give it a rest.
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Lowanaera
Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:06:00 -
[47]
I'm going to assume, as I sit here laughing, that those of you freaking out about this are completely unfamiliar with a minor site called Allakhazam, with premium services related to a little-known game called Everquest, from oh say, 8 years ago.
Paying for the time and effort someone else has taken to compile information about a game is not exactly revolutionary new ground worthy of sky-is-falling dramatics.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:13:00 -
[48]
Apparently someone never heard of the Prima Games guide that streeted with EVE. I've got a copy. It had 2d maps of lowsec / 0-sec constellations. I wonder why you're crying now, instead of 4 years ago?
It's perfectly fine when a large corporate entity makes a ridiculously poorly researched guide, but when a single enterprising individual puts in the time and effort to present information in a meaningful manner, and offers updates to said information, it's shennanigans?
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:14:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Lowanaera Paying for the time and effort someone else has taken to compile information about a game is not exactly revolutionary new ground worthy of sky-is-falling dramatics.
It is for EvE. In fact it has been specifically written into the EULA that it is NOT acceptable conduct. It has been treated in the past as on par with paying for ISK.
Just because I or YOU do not pay for ISK doesn't make it appropriate to allow others to do it. I see this endevour equally as destructive on this community.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:17:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Lowanaera Paying for the time and effort someone else has taken to compile information about a game is not exactly revolutionary new ground worthy of sky-is-falling dramatics.
It is for EvE. In fact it has been specifically written into the EULA that it is NOT acceptable conduct. It has been treated in the past as on par with paying for ISK.
Just because I or YOU do not pay for ISK doesn't make it appropriate to allow others to do it. I see this endevour equally as destructive on this community.
Again, but when Prima Games did it, it was perfectly fine? One set of conduct for corporate partners, another for entrepreneurs? You sure you're not a lawyer for Miriam Webster?
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:20:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Amarria Black It's perfectly fine when a large corporate entity makes a ridiculously poorly researched guide, but when a single enterprising individual puts in the time and effort to present information in a meaningful manner, and offers updates to said information, it's shennanigans?
It is NOT the product, or individual that is in question. It is the endorsement of CCP to allow an individual to get paid for use of their intelectual property to the detrement of the greater community.
Do you WANT third party products to be 'pay for use'? Do you want there to be two types of players in EvE? Those that can afford all the optional extra and those that can not?
If your answer is yes, then you also should support ISK for cash, macro mining and leveling services because it's the exact same arguement.
CCP originally didn't want ANY third party products to capitalise on their intelectual property finacially. I see no reason to change this.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:25:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Amarria Black Again, but when Prima Games did it, it was perfectly fine?
I never said that it was. And I am pretty sure it wasn't alright with CCP either at the time. Prima Games have a history of producing unofficial books. CCP could have taken them to court for damages for all I know.
I am more concerned about CCP supposed approval for this particular project as it is the first of it's kind with CCPs approval which directly contravenes their EULA whihc effects us all. Except of course... now Serenity.
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Mithrandir TFC
Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Amarria Black It's perfectly fine when a large corporate entity makes a ridiculously poorly researched guide, but when a single enterprising individual puts in the time and effort to present information in a meaningful manner, and offers updates to said information, it's shennanigans?
It is NOT the product, or individual that is in question. It is the endorsement of CCP to allow an individual to get paid for use of their intelectual property to the detrement of the greater community.
Do you WANT third party products to be 'pay for use'? Do you want there to be two types of players in EvE? Those that can afford all the optional extra and those that can not?
If your answer is yes, then you also should support ISK for cash, macro mining and leveling services because it's the exact same arguement.
CCP originally didn't want ANY third party products to capitalise on their intelectual property finacially. I see no reason to change this.
Get over it. Who cares.
No one said you have to buy it. Its based on choice. You can gain the same advantage by doing it your self if you dont feel its right. And how does it have anything to do with buying isk? You dont make any sense??????
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:37:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mithrandir TFC Get over it. Who cares.
No one said you have to buy it. Its based on choice. You can gain the same advantage by doing it your self if you dont feel its right. And how does it have anything to do with buying isk? You dont make any sense??????
Buying ISK. Why do we care so much about it? You can go out and earn it yourself. You don't have to buy it if you dont want to. it's based on choice right? So in your mind that is ok?
Personally I do not beleive that items, charactors, ISK or anything that come from in game should be sold for cash. There is no difference to buying in game information or ISK for cash in my opinion.
Both can be obtained in game by users. CCP is considering allowing one to be sold for a profit, but not the other. This I feel is the WRONG direction for CCP to take.
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FuriousMallard
Amarr Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:41:00 -
[55]
If you don't want to support something like this, don't buy the book. If EVEMon creators or owners of any other tool, site, or resource cut their own deals with CCP and start charging, DON'T BUY THEM. None of these are critical for game play (just handy or luxuries), and better yet, you are perfectly free to create your own free versions of EveMon, maps, whatever and share those with the rest of the community.
And drop the EULA argument. It is CCP's EULA, not a binding reciprocal contract. They can get drunk tonight and change it to say that any characters created with rhyming names (e.g., say, Wiggly Jiggly) are in violation, and that's fine. Dumb maybe, but hey, this is CCP's EULA, CCP's IP, CCP's revenue stream, and CCP's game. Period.
Seriously, what is so hard to understand here? Did you push for a similar deal with CCP and get beat out by Serenity? ---------------- I quack in your general direction. |
Johnathan Roark
Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:44:00 -
[56]
I see nothing wrong this. If the price is right and its a well done product, I even intend to purchase at least one. I seriously do not think CCP would let him print it without receiving a portion of the profits for there IP. How about that magazine called EON? Its made by a third party mmmpublishing which CCP receives a portion of the profits from.
Corporation Management Improvement |
Mithrandir TFC
Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:50:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Mithrandir TFC Get over it. Who cares.
No one said you have to buy it. Its based on choice. You can gain the same advantage by doing it your self if you dont feel its right. And how does it have anything to do with buying isk? You dont make any sense??????
Buying ISK. Why do we care so much about it? You can go out and earn it yourself. You don't have to buy it if you dont want to. it's based on choice right? So in your mind that is ok?
Personally I do not beleive that items, charactors, ISK or anything that come from in game should be sold for cash. There is no difference to buying in game information or ISK for cash in my opinion.
Both can be obtained in game by users. CCP is considering allowing one to be sold for a profit, but not the other. This I feel is the WRONG direction for CCP to take.
and were argueing on somthing that can never be one, because again, due to personal opinion. maybe we should switch it to if abortions right or not if we want to keep argueing
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:51:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 05:50:53
Originally by: FuriousMallard None of these are critical for game play (just handy or luxuries)
I think if you read the other thread on that you will find there is a tactical advantage afforded to those with the book, over those without.
However minor, utilising this book provides an advantage to those who can afford to purchase it. If this gets approved by CCP ultimately there will be a two tier playerbase.
Those with optional (pay only) extras and those without. You happy with that?
It is not the book that I am against. It is the direction this decision presents for third party tools / services.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:57:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 05/06/2007 05:59:19 the outrage!
we should hate all those third party companies that put together the strategy/tips and tricks guides games too!
also those third party companies providing gtc's and paybycash and our isp's for making us pay to use eve as well, how dare they profit from eves greatness!
/sarcasm
Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.06.05 05:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Thats what I am upset about. CCP is condoning this for one special person while preventing everyone else. Once the genie is out of the bottle we will see all the other creators asking "why cabn't I get paid".
CCP is not condoning it for "one special person". They are negotiating with a person who wants to produce a book. Doubtless Serenity will either pay CCP a flat fee for the license to do so or a portion of the profits (or both). CCP wins because they get money with little risk and effort for themselves. Serenity is taking a larger risk by putting time and resources into it.
Unless the agreement Serenity reaches with CCP is an exclusive deal there is no reason you could not approach CCP and say you want to make a map book. If they think your product looks better or will be more profitable they'd probably be happy to come to an arrangement with you. There is nothing "special" about what Serenity is doing. It is nothing more than a business proposition and one anyone with a bright idea could attempt.
As for the people who create EVEMon and such frankly they probably do deserve some money. Afterall those products are useful and represent a fair bit of work from the creators. Usually the people who create those tools start doing so for their own use. Then they figure it's pretty cool and offer it to the community for free (few would risk dropping money on it till it is well known and shown to be good). For this they gain the admiration of the community which is not bad (IIRC Winterblink mentioned he has been let go at gate camps before because of his cartoon). Some others request ISK donations in game so they sorta get paid that way (you'd have to ask them if they get much this way...I have no clue). If they asked for cash I suspect they'd have to make an arrangement with CCP.
There is nothing wrong with any of the above. Player created tools and content are awesome and common in the gaming community and I bet (barring stuff like macros) the Devs love it. They make the game better overall which is work CCP did not have to do. If someone wants to make hard copy books (which obviosuly must come with a charge...not cheap to produce) and gets the ok from CCP no big deal. As others have mentioned no one is making you buy it and free resources exist that do much the same thing.
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