Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:28:00 -
[121]
you said "What about all the players who can't pay for it because of financial constraints? What would happen if all the slick third party tools, resources and books of information became 'subscribers only'?
The player base would be split right down the middle. Those with the resources and those without. It is a question of equality.
Any third party tool was allowed to be develped using CCP intelectual property so long as it was free for everyone to obtain."
um.. yes MMORPG's have player guides. So do one player guides. they cost money.. and give the person who paid money an advantage.
this is normal
are you saying you feel like players will get ahead of you because they have a static hard copy of maps?? if you want to print a book out it will cost you ink and paper. and a cover. so buy it for 10$ or make it for 3$ plus you'd have to put all of the time into it as wel.
this is a case of someone working instead of you doing it. and you pay them because you didn't want to make it. like going out of diner is more expensive than making it your self.
|
Alaron Giancol
Amarr Resurrection R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:28:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Alaron Giancol You seem to be oblivious to the fact that each book has a fixed cost associated with producing it, unlike programs and webapps.
Eh? Of course there is a fixed cost for developing programs and webapps.
The computer itself, internet access, server space, bandwidth charges, software licencing etc. All have a fixed price.
What's wrong with you?
Each of those items are independent of the amount of product produced.
Having 99 people use the program costs the same as 100 people
Printing 99 books costs less than printing 100 books. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
|
Wiggly Jiggly
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:28:00 -
[123]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: MotherMoon if it's not electronic it's not covered by the EULA
Wow. You don't actually beleive this do you?
Try and print off screenshots on paper and selling them in here. I would be curious how far you got before CCP lawyers smacked you with a copyright infringement notice.
well if I called CCP frist and asked if I could and they said yes
then yes I would do just that and make money off of people that are really happy I take sweet screen shots
What does ANY of that have to do with your statement that "if it isn't electonic it's not covered by the EULA"??
|
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:29:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Alaron Giancol You seem to be oblivious to the fact that each book has a fixed cost associated with producing it, unlike programs and webapps.
Eh? Of course there is a fixed cost for developing programs and webapps.
The computer itself, internet access, server space, bandwidth charges, software licencing etc. All have a fixed price.
What's wrong with you?
same pint if EVE-mon called up CCP and they said yes you can make people pay then it would happen.
maybe you should pioint your random anger at CCP and not the company making the book.
|
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:30:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: MotherMoon if it's not electronic it's not covered by the EULA
Wow. You don't actually beleive this do you?
Try and print off screenshots on paper and selling them in here. I would be curious how far you got before CCP lawyers smacked you with a copyright infringement notice.
well if I called CCP frist and asked if I could and they said yes
then yes I would do just that and make money off of people that are really happy I take sweet screen shots
What does ANY of that have to do with your statement that "if it isn't electonic it's not covered by the EULA"??
well you asked me to try selling prints so I told you how I would.
and I guess I'm wrong point still stands
|
Wiggly Jiggly
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:31:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Alaron Giancol Each of those items are independent of the amount of product produced.
Having 99 people use the program costs the same as 100 people
Printing 99 books costs less than printing 100 books.
So the COST of book production is a variable cost associated with the number of books actually ordered and printed.
You seem to be wavering on your original position about fixed costs.
|
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:31:00 -
[127]
well I say one thing. thank you for telling me about this book *goes off to buy
|
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:33:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:45:54
Originally by: Svengali not the trolling bits about not shipping
Do you deny this is risk to consider?
Personally when I buy something off ebay I have real concerns if it is going to arrive or not. Why would this be any different?
CCP knew better than to expose it's player base to 'pay for use' third parties like this from the outset. This is why they said you are not allowed to charge for such services. They should stick by their guns and say NO to this.
Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces.
for goodness sake it was at fanfest. if you don't get your product you call faurd and get him sued. CCP wants it made it's happening
|
Wiggly Jiggly
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:35:00 -
[129]
Originally by: MotherMoon maybe you should pioint your random anger at CCP and not the company making the book.
Ummmmmm hello. I have stated over and over that I have no problem with a guide, book, or any other third party tools or sites.
I do however have a problem with CCP providing exclusive licence to one individual to provide CCP intelectual property for personal profit.
CCP isn't going to benefit from this. Nor are any of us that either choose or can't afford to buy it. There is no equivilent electronic version for us to download.
If CCP was behind this that is a different story altogether but they are not. They are allowing someone to skirt the EULA that applys to all other third party developers.
That is plain unfair, and ultimately to our deteriment.
|
Onnawa
Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:36:00 -
[130]
Ok...let's cover some commerce terms, and where you're reasoning is flawed.
1.) Serenity will not be a "third-party" producer. He is currently in negotiations with CCP, which means once he gets offical permission, he becomes a Licensed Producer. Grab a dictionary and look up "license".
2.) Serenity won't be the only one profiting. CCP will get their share based off of sales (ergo, per copy), and while Serenity has done the compilation work (and will thusly be handsomely compensated), CCP gets their royalties from the sales of the book. In fact, in such instances, the IP Holder typically sets the deal up with the publishing company. This allows the IP Holder to, in essence, screw the little man more, because they take on some of the costs of production, thereby allowing them to keep more of the profits as an investment return.
3.) Serenity, as you say, will not be in a position to "take the money and run." That damages the image of CCP, as well as violating multiple laws concerning misrepresentation of product, or failure to produce. When the book is purchased, you're buying a BOOK, not stock or options. So, if Serenity is a Licensed producer and fails to deliver, he leaves himself, the publishing company, and CCP open to litigation in International Courts. Anyone else see CCP standing for that for very long before the bounty hunters are on his tail?
4.) EveMon, and other such products are freeware. By it's very definition, freeware can NEVER BE CHARGED FOR. Any attempt to do so is a violation of multiple International Copyright Laws, because it then crosses into the domain of unauthorized profiting from Intellectual Property. They are legally allowed to ask for donations to keep themselves in mountain dew and glazed donuts on those long programming nights if you like the product, but the second they ever attempted to charge for said program, CCP would have them thrown under the jail for copyright infringement.
5.) As so many others have pointed out, it is in no way a violation of the EULA for Serenity to negotiate a contract with CCP for licensing of an Eve product. He is more than within his bounds to do so....it's called Free Enterprise. If anyone else were to have similar ideas, they have every right to do the same. The EULA solely prevents the selling of any electronic properties which are, in fact, the property of CCP.
6.) Your fears of CCP licensing out rights to sell products bearing the Eve name are baseless. Sales of Eve mapbooks, or calendars, or t-shirts, or any other items will not create an "Electronic Bourgeoisie". In fact, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but not all Eve Characters (or Players) are created equal. I have an extremely high-end machine and a souped-up broadband connection. That means I have an edge, whether you like it or not. If I buy the mapbook, will i have more of an edge? Probably. But will the little guy with the lower end machine and the crappier connection receive a bigger edge? Absolutely. Now he knows where not to go, and when you're system isn't the absolute top-of-the-line, the best way to survive a bad situation is to never get into it in the first place.
At any rate, I'm worn myself out. Feel free to look up any terms in bold in your trusty Webster's....maybe you'll figure out the flaw in your logic. And as far as your concerns of creating two classes in Eve...
EVISCERATE THE PROLITARIAT!!!
_____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
|
Alaron Giancol
Amarr Resurrection R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:37:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly So the COST of book production is a variable cost associated with the number of books actually ordered and printed.
You seem to be wavering on your original position about fixed costs.
so I used the wrong term, this isn't a economics course, and it doesn't change the facts.
you seem to be ignoring the relevant arguments being brought against you in favor of picking apart terminology and diction.
- We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
|
Wiggly Jiggly
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:39:00 -
[132]
Originally by: MotherMoon if you don't get your product you call faurd and get him sued. CCP wants it made it's happening
Ok... suppose it doesn't arrive and I call 'faurd' and turn to CCP? Their response will be?
Sue him? Who? Where is he based? What's his name? Where is the consumer protection? At least if you buy stuff off CCP you have SOME legal recourse verus some random user name in a online game.
|
Osmaal
Courteous Ultra-Nice Transport Services
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:39:00 -
[133]
CCP own the intellectual property that is eve and all the related trademarks etc.
When we pay our subscription we are licensing that property for out use under the terms of the EULA.
If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also.
The simplest way yo deal with this is to just not use any 3rd party product that you would have to pay for. There's no-one putting a gun to your head saying you have to.
not sure about quick-fit but EVEmon is opensource and uses a GPL license so anyone can use it free of charge and only could someone start charging for it if they produce a substantially altered version of it.
If anyone's that concerned about loosing their 3rd party tools download them now whilst they're still free and if they make a product someone has to pay for at a later date DON'T BUY IT! (nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head)
"Its not the size, its what you do with it that counts" |
Gaia Thorn
Infestation.
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:47:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Gaia Thorn on 05/06/2007 08:50:32 Last time i checked CCP owned the rights to this game and what nots around it.
If they feel like doing a excemption to the EULA it's there choice i garantee you that some where in it there is a clause stating that they can do whatever they want.
And why shouldnt people that produce stuff around the game get paid ??? Im just glad if they keep it cost free for aslong as possible.
But if they want to get paid talk to ccp just like steele put forth a valid sales pitch and who knows CCP might make a exceptiom once more.
|
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:48:00 -
[135]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 05/06/2007 08:49:58 Edited by: MotherMoon on 05/06/2007 08:48:09 errr... "Well 2 preview printed books were sent out at the start of May. One to Oveur, and one to the CEO of CCP | White-Wolf North America.
The phone call I had with Oveur last week, he said it's good to go (ie. creative approval). White-Wolf are responsible for publishing - they've been investigating reducing printing cost via printing in USA / China, which has taken since February."
ok, um your really dull... you must of not done any reading and just got paranoid. I'm sry if this is hrash but ou opened for flamebait
I have to take a deep breath here before I OWN you in the face...
CCP AND WHITE WOLF ARE THE SAME COMPANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!1!!
nvm I thought you had a point but if this is the case and CCP says yes and white wolf is publishing the book you fail because that means CCP is printing the copies of the book!!!
also remember what you said about3rd parties shouldn't make money? you must hate EvE-voice then
|
Osmaal
Courteous Ultra-Nice Transport Services
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:49:00 -
[136]
Quote: Ok... suppose it doesn't arrive and I call 'faurd' and turn to CCP? Their response will be?
Sue him? Who? Where is he based? What's his name? Where is the consumer protection? At least if you buy stuff off CCP you have SOME legal recourse verus some random user name in a online game.
Would you really hand over your hard earned cash to someone you only had an online identity for?
If you did that i'm afraid you deserve be scammed. No doubt if this guy did start selling a licensed product he would either:
a)negotiate with CCP to sell through the online store
b)sell it on ebay as those purchases are protected
or,
c)use another service like amazon marketplace which again protects the consumer
The simple way to not get scammed is don't allow yourself to get scammed!
"Its not the size, its what you do with it that counts" |
Wiggly Jiggly
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:50:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Osmaal If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also.
Of course. No problem with that.
My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community.
What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price.
This is obviously NOT a healthy trend.
|
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:52:00 -
[138]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 05/06/2007 08:51:46
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Osmaal If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also.
Of course. No problem with that.
My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community.
What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price.
This is obviously NOT a healthy trend.
sure if you have an idea and CCP MAKES THE *** thing then yes you should have to pay for it. White wolf is CCP now. get it through your head. CCP is paying him for making the book and selling it themselfs.
|
Haks'he Lirky
8th
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:54:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 08:11:53
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky And wow! Having to pay to get stuff? Where are you from? You take the honest work of the people that create EvEMon and MLCalc for granted? You think it's natural that you get their stuff for free?
Congratulations for not getting the point.
It is NOT fair for only ONE third party developer to gain financially from their efforts while others are bound by the EULA to never charge a dime.
Either they ALL should be compensated or none of them should. Selective application of the EULA depending upon the relationship of the individual with those within CCP is unfair to not only thiid party developers, but to the eve community.
The status quo was for 10 years not to allow third party developers to capitalise financially off off CCP intelectual property until now.
I am pointing out this situation as I am uncomfortable with the precedence it sets.
Erm arguing with you any further would be fruitless as it's obvious by the answers in this thread that your concern is not mirrored by the other people in the thread.
But I'll try this once more.
It costs money to publish EON and it's not CCP that does it directly same with the trade card game, any single enitity can contact CCP with an idea to create a product to be sold as an EVE product.
If CCP likes the idea and want it to be part of their product line then they will say yes.
It costs money to physically print a book, I'll repeat this for you, it costs money to print a book. So if you want a nice printed book created by a member of the community then you will have to fork out cash for that product, just like you fork out cash for EON and the card game.
|
Marcos Trask
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:55:00 -
[140]
I think this is not a problem. Will you buy a book that will be outdated with the next patch? Eve is a game with fast changes - ingame by players and by the work of CCP. E.g. removing of Stargates, belts etc.
I think it could get a problem if CCP will make changes on the game (and on the ingame mechanics) according to that map project. But I think we are far away of that atm. And i do not think CCP will make such decisions. Hence they are interested in the game and its player base (they want to earn their own money :) )
|
|
Alaron Giancol
Amarr Resurrection R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 08:59:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community.
What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price.
This is obviously NOT a healthy trend.
The landscape hasn't changed at all. The option for people to pursue the business venture that Serenity has has always been there, but noone has chosen to until now. Its not like it's the only source for 2D maps in the world. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
|
Wiggly Jiggly
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:02:00 -
[142]
Originally by: MotherMoon on top of the fact that CCP and white wolf same company print both the TCG and EON, and the new upcoming map book.
Next step...
EvEMon gets 'licenced' and now has a monthly subscription.
The EvE client scans hard drive for copies of EvE Miner and disables EvE unless it is a registered and licenced copy.
Sites that list Mission guides are threatened by lawyers because they do not pay royaties to CCP.
Trust me. It starts here. Where will it end?
|
Onnawa
Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:03:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Onnawa on 05/06/2007 09:02:31 Aptly put.
From everything I've seen here, it's not Serenity's product...he was simply the originator. It appears it's now a CCP/WWI product, and your argument is a non-issue.
Which was what I thought I spelled out fairly clearly in my original post.
_____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:03:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: MotherMoon on top of the fact that CCP and white wolf same company print both the TCG and EON, and the new upcoming map book.
Next step...
EvEMon gets 'licenced' and now has a monthly subscription.
The EvE client scans hard drive for copies of EvE Miner and disables EvE unless it is a registered and licenced copy.
Sites that list Mission guides are threatened by lawyers because they do not pay royaties to CCP.
Trust me. It starts here. Where will it end?
NO! stop! it's not a program! it's a sldkghskdjfhsldkfj book.
do you hate that EON is made? it has tanking guides, and interviews, and maps of EVE. it has new ships, FAQs, and lots of other stuff.
please someone lock this :/
|
Vorian Atraties
Dark and Light inc. D-L
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:06:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Osmaal If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also.
Of course. No problem with that.
My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community.
What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price.
This is obviously NOT a healthy trend.
as a company they have the right to do so. Perhaps other material that was proposed to ccp in the past was not up to there standerds. and perhaps this is. Is this the reason your so mad you had an idea and ccp said umm no? or do you have a secret list of names of all the people that have been denied by ccp? at anyrate i give up on this debate with you it's not productive in anyway as it's clear that nobody can change your mind on this subject. vor
|
Alaron Giancol
Amarr Resurrection R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:06:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Alaron Giancol on 05/06/2007 09:08:57
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: MotherMoon on top of the fact that CCP and white wolf same company print both the TCG and EON, and the new upcoming map book.
Next step...
EvEMon gets 'licenced' and now has a monthly subscription.
The EvE client scans hard drive for copies of EvE Miner and disables EvE unless it is a registered and licenced copy.
Sites that list Mission guides are threatened by lawyers because they do not pay royaties to CCP.
Trust me. It starts here. Where will it end?
Is there a precedent for this sort of thing happening? Is your opinion of CCP so low that you honestly think they will pursue this sort of thing? Is your opinion of the people that made these programs so low that you honestly think they will try to get money out of it, even though they haven't since they've released it? - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
|
Sian Tairnesh
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:07:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Alaron Giancol you seem to be ignoring the relevant arguments being brought against you in favor of picking apart terminology and diction.
And that points to a troll. A skilled one, but nevertheless a troll.
|
Mr Adequate
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:09:00 -
[148]
Mods, lock this topic please?
Its just a lot of rubbish -- and already discussed to death.
Wiggly, how about posting with your main instead of just trolling with a new char ?
|
Erichk Knaar
Caldari Maelstrom Crew
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:10:00 -
[149]
My comments, in no particular order of priority:
Get over yourself. Cottage industry is a good thing, mmkay, what are you, some kind of communist? How are we supposed to take an angry little alt called wiggly jiggly seriously, post with your main or stfu. I personally plan to make my fortune renting exotic dancers to people in real life through an IGB interface, I just have to find my bald amarr lady then I'm gonna hit CCP up for a license...
Fan created products are good. Where do think gaming in general would be if Gary Gygax had pulled out the lawyers on anyone trying to make a d&d module or figurine back in the day?
|
MotherMoon
|
Posted - 2007.06.05 09:10:00 -
[150]
it has to be said
OP?
put on your tin foil hat because were never going to believe you. and we can proudly watch as you stand on the sidealk of space with a cardboard sign that says, this is only where it starts! it's all over! who will stop the madness! where will it stop! who will stop it!"
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |