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Onnawa
Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:12:00 -
[151]
As we have pointed out before, EveMon is FREEWARE. It can never be licensed for profit. To do so, even by CCP, would be a violation of International Copyright Law. Freeware is freeware....forever. PERIOD. Even freeware and free programs have their own EULAs....go have a look. It's required by ICL. Usually something along the lines of "this program may be shared, linked to, duplicated, hosted, or modified on a free and as-is basis."
And as far as EveMiner, if it isn't on a Freeware basis and CCP wishes to acquire the rights, then disable if you don't pay, that's their buisness, not ours. They're still the IPO, and they have rights. You, on the other hand, have only the rights granted you in the EULA by afore-mentioned IPO.
Get over it, don't buy it, and for heaven's sake, quit complaining about it.
_____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
Mallikanth
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:14:00 -
[152]
Hmmm 6 pages so far of argument and counter argument. It simply boils down to this...
Do you want it / agree with it? No? Then don't buy it!! Do you want it / like it ? Buy it!!
It appears to be endorsed by CCP so it's good. I don't see a problem in this or any other endorsed application / recourse being charged for. if I don't want it I won't buy it.
Get a grip please! Moaning seems to be the pastime recently in these forums.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:18:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Imagine Serenity was not an EVE player but a publishing house. Would you feel differently about it then since the publishing company was not an EVE player bound by the EULA?
No I wouldn't as CCP would probably sell it via their website. However we are NOT talking about a publishing house with a licencing agreement are we? We are talking about Serenity obtaining tacit approval via a phone conversation with Oveur to 'go ahead'.
This is tantamount to giving special licence to one player in the game to ignore a clause of CCP's EULA. I find that unacceptable, favoratism and setting a VERY bad precedent.
If CCP wants a map book I have NO problem with that. They want a guide? CCP should go right ahead and produce one. However CCP is NOT doing this. Serenity is and is going to make a profit off of doing so with CCPs approval.
This is the same legalised ebay ISK, or charactor sales but with one person having the exclusive rights to do it.
Please read my comment above for those who claim I am a troll.
If this guide is produced and sold on the EvE online site. I have NO problem with it. If instead it is sold on Serenity site only, I have HUGE problems with it.
There is a big difference here fellas. Please understand the disticintion. It is irrelevent who prints the book.
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cal nereus
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:22:00 -
[154]
I see nothing wrong with this. Feel free to sell these useful map books Serenity Steele, should your negotiations with CCP succeed anyways.
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Erichk Knaar
Caldari Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:22:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:23:27 Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:21:53 Apparently you fail reading comprehension...
Not a clever thing to do in an argument you are being so passionate about.
Quote: White-Wolf are responsible for publishing
From this post...
Now be quiet.
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Alaron Giancol
Amarr Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:24:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Please read my comment above for those who claim I am a troll.
you are still ignoring the reasons why we are calling you a troll, which in and of itself is the sign of a troll
Quote:
If this guide is produced and sold on the EvE online site. I have NO problem with it. If instead it is sold on Serenity site only, I have HUGE problems with it.
There is a big difference here fellas. Please understand the disticintion. It is irrelevent who prints the book.
Even if the money is distributed the same way in both cases? - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
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Krugerrand
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:27:00 -
[157]
How did this thread get to 6 pages :/
OP - read the arguments against your point (you completly missed what dark shikari said on page 1 or 2 about EVEmon remaining free).
If someone introduces a paid service its usually replaced by another player developed free service, these are hardly likely to stop, not to mention some people won't be succesfful in getting CCP permission.
This is a special case, much like EON, if people want it they pay for it, if they don't then they don't get it or print their own using the many free alternatives available on the internet.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:28:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Erichk Knaar Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:21:53 Apparently you fail reading comprehension...
Not a clever thing to do in an argument you are being so passionate about.
Quote: White-Wolf are responsible for publishing
From this post...
Now be quite.
Quite what?
Deriding me for my opinion is a weak form of arguement.
If Serenity gets to make a buck off the backs of CCPs intelectual property it sets a exteremely poor precedent for future development from others.
They will start asking for compensation creating a two tiered player base.
It is IRRELEVENT who actually prints the book. What matters is who benefits financially.
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:29:00 -
[159]
perhaps this is a case of a tin foil house?
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Erichk Knaar
Caldari Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:30:00 -
[160]
I really shouldn't feed the troll, but publish implies something more than just print, capice...
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:31:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Erichk Knaar Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:21:53 Apparently you fail reading comprehension...
Not a clever thing to do in an argument you are being so passionate about.
Quote: White-Wolf are responsible for publishing
From this post...
Now be quite.
Quite what?
Deriding me for my opinion is a weak form of arguement.
If Serenity gets to make a buck off the backs of CCPs intelectual property it sets a exteremely poor precedent for future development from others.
They will start asking for compensation creating a two tiered player base.
It is IRRELEVENT who actually prints the book. What matters is who benefits financially.
the people who write EON get money... and the people who buy it are t2 members and if you go to fanfest you are a t3 member
sweet behinds talk with devs face to face awesomness
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Onnawa
Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:34:00 -
[162]
Serenity isn't "making a buck". He's provided a product that CCP has deemed worthy of production, and will thusly be compensated. It's like saying that a restaurant is making a buck off the backs of farmers because they've changed raw produce into finished food. That's the end to it.
"Never Argue with an Idiot..... They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
_____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
Alaron Giancol
Amarr Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:37:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Quite what?
Deriding me for my opinion is a weak form of arguement.
If Serenity gets to make a buck off the backs of CCPs intelectual property it sets a exteremely poor precedent for future development from others.
They will start asking for compensation creating a two tiered player base.
It is IRRELEVENT who actually prints the book. What matters is who benefits financially.
What's an "arguement"? I'm not familiar with "intelectual" property. What exactly do you mean by "exteremely"?
now that that's out of the way, I'll ask you again: Is your opinion of CCP and the producers of third-party tools so low that you honestly think they will try to charge for their use? What precedent is there for this happening with third-party programs?
Serenity is the only player we know of who has produced a tangible product related to EVE, and there is NO precedent for providing such products for free. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
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Sahwoolo Etoophie
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:41:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Onnawa As we have pointed out before, EveMon is FREEWARE. It can never be licensed for profit. To do so, even by CCP, would be a violation of International Copyright Law. Freeware is freeware....forever. PERIOD. Even freeware and free programs have their own EULAs....go have a look. It's required by ICL. Usually something along the lines of "this program may be shared, linked to, duplicated, hosted, or modified on a free and as-is basis."
And as far as EveMiner, if it isn't on a Freeware basis and CCP wishes to acquire the rights, then disable if you don't pay, that's their buisness, not ours. They're still the IPO, and they have rights. You, on the other hand, have only the rights granted you in the EULA by afore-mentioned IPO.
Get over it, don't buy it, and for heaven's sake, quit complaining about it.
More precisely, EveMon is licensed under the GNU GPLv2 license, which is a free/open source license. It is a misunderstanding though, that programs licensed under it cannot be sold for profit. They can, but the GPL license terms have to be obeyed, that is you have to share the source code and let everyone modify it. Because the source code is public generally the for-profit model is not very widespread, but there are exceptions. It is most certainly not against law to charge money for GPL licensed software, just don't expect too many customers.
The other misconception relates to Intellectual Property. No such thing exist. To be more precise, it is an umbrella term for three separate areas of law: copyright, patent and trademark.
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Onnawa
Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.06.05 09:55:00 -
[165]
Thank you Sahwoolo.
It's getting rather late here, and after 22 hours, my business law begins to run together.
Essentially Sahwoolo has made my point for me more eloquently than sleep deprivation allows:
Freeware/Openware can be charged for, but that cash cow dies rather quickly, because someone else can then take your version, modify or improve it, then distribute it for free, thus cutting you out of the loop.
_____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
Odinegras
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:03:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase.
Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game.
Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?)
So what up with the exception??
Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts.
The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed.
Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without.
CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel.
Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it??
WHY? That of all things should be free.
If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE.
Not the right direction in my opinion.
Thoughts?
No offense but your an idiot. Case Closed
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:04:00 -
[167]
Meh, theres plenty of precedent for companies to outsource the making of certain "companion" products to third parties. Its been going on since the dawn of video games. Just look at the massive "Prima Strategy Guide" set up. Or the EVE CCG- CCP are letting a third party print and sell a product with their name on.
To be honest, I'd rather some hard working and diligent EVE player made a few quid selling what is essentially a "strategy guide" (that is, a book with in game information) than one of the major publishing giants. Go, little man!
But in honesty, unless the price is pretty close to cost, I wouldn't buy one. Similar info is already available for free in the form of Ombey's maps and similar. --------
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Onnawa
Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:15:00 -
[168]
If White Wolf follows their typical trend of book prices, you'll be looking at $20 for softcover, $30-$35 for hardback.
_____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:20:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Odinegras
No offense but your an idiot.
There are countless maps available, personally i use ombeys map (Thanks Ombey :D) This book isnt base level material it isnt 100% necessary to buy this book to play the game is it. So dont buy it, there are free alterantives and as i understand it he is doing it for non profit, so he is spending his time doing something for the community so be grateful that there are people like him in the world.... Idiot
First. Offense taken because you could have expressed your point of view without the abuse.
Second, you 100% that he is doing this without compensation? I strongly doubt it.
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Xtreem
Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:22:00 -
[170]
if it was hardback i would buy it, would be handy.
then again if CCP released a massive map big enough for me to put on my wall and reference systems from there (like a massive poster) i would pay for that also!
i dont see the big fuss over someone charging cash for alot of effort.
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Sian Tairnesh
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:27:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Xtreem then again if CCP released a massive map big enough for me to put on my wall and reference systems from there (like a massive poster) i would pay for that also!
Ooooh yes! Then I'd have an excuse to replace the WoW map my GF hung up behind my screen ;)
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:29:00 -
[172]
I am fine with the book. I won't buy it anyway.
My beef is that this SHOULD be available ingame, i.e. the ingame map options should be made better (I never liked it).
As it is now, it is hard to make something useful from the ingame map.
Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:35:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Xtreem i dont see the big fuss over someone charging cash for alot of effort.
B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
What Serenity is attempting to do is make this clause not apply to him, while making it apply to everyone else. In essense, making a personal profit off the userbase in direct contrevention of the EULA.
Now if CCP buys this book and markets it as it's own... no problem. If Serenity plans to sell this on his own website for profit... big problem.
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Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:37:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase.
Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game.
Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?)
So what up with the exception??
Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts.
The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed.
Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without.
CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel.
Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it??
WHY? That of all things should be free.
If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE.
Not the right direction in my opinion.
Thoughts?
You would have made a better debate here if you would of posted with your main and not this new ALT...Goon squad freak.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Ovno ConSyquence
Amarr The Plebians
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:38:00 -
[175]
The sky is falling the sky is falling, help help the release of a book for eve is the end of the world
Or perhaps not...
I predict that this book will be just as usefull and just as much a prerequiste for playing this game as any of the other game strategy guides out there for any other game are.
So not at all then...
However i certainly wouldn't be too annoyed if one of these turned up in my christmass stocking as a nice eve related present :)
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Sales Merchant
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:46:00 -
[176]
It's CCP's game, they can do whatever they like.
If tommorow they wanted to paint all ravens pink, they could, and there would be nothing you could do about it.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:48:00 -
[177]
To the op:
Im sorry to say this but your either trolling or thick. And i dont mean that in a derogatory way. Im trying to to explain it to you in short easy sentences in order to help you understand what dozens of people tried to explain you.
The eula you refer to is a contract between you and ccp. This contract happens when you accept it logging into the game the first time. This contract isnt even remotely legally binding unless you accept it, which you must do in order to play, but not in order to release books. You understand? You could try writing a book about eve without ever logging in, and thus never seeing/accepting the eula.
If you try to make money out of ccps IP you get sued. However not on grounds of the eula. A eula is not the same as a law, you can only sue people on laws, not on eulas. If you try to make money of ccps IP without their permission you are breaking various laws depending on country, you will get sued on grounds of these laws. Breaking the eula only leads to the termination of your contract with ccp that is required to play eve.
So what serenity is trying to do is get ccps consent to use their IP in his works. You need this consent for legal reasons once you try using the IP of someone else to make money. For legal reasons you dont need the consent to use the IP if you do it for free.
Its simple. You write a fanstory about eve and post it on the web --> OK. You write a book on eve and plan to get it released by a huge publisher --> You need ccps consent. This has nothing to do with eula, and all to do with laws. It would be the same if ccp didnt even HAD a eula.
So dont get all hyped about the eula, all the eula is there for is kicking you out of the game if you drop beer on oveur at a fanfest or barf on his f-40. Oh yeah and if you do stuff thats bad for the game ... yeah definitly, almost forgot about that ... But you barf on that car your seriously get yourself a lifetime ban.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:53:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Patch86 on 05/06/2007 10:54:37 Edited by: Patch86 on 05/06/2007 10:54:28
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Xtreem i dont see the big fuss over someone charging cash for alot of effort.
B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
What Serenity is attempting to do is make this clause not apply to him, while making it apply to everyone else. In essense, making a personal profit off the userbase in direct contrevention of the EULA.
Now if CCP buys this book and markets it as it's own... no problem. If Serenity plans to sell this on his own website for profit... big problem.
What about the up coming novel thats in production (apparently)? Or the CCG? What if they allowed Prima to release a strategy guide? They're comprised primarily of EVE game content, and are sold / will be sold for a price. Whats the difference? --------
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Ozstar
Naughty 40
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Posted - 2007.06.05 10:57:00 -
[179]
Wiggly, it seems only you have a problem with this, in which case dont buy it and crawl back under the rock you came from. Im looking forward to these map books as i think they will be helpful when roaming around unfamiliar territory.
Am i willing to pay someone for the effort they have put into making them, damn right i am.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.06.05 11:07:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
What Serenity is attempting to do is make this clause not apply to him, while making it apply to everyone else. In essense, making a personal profit off the userbase in direct contrevention of the EULA.
Now if CCP buys this book and markets it as it's own... no problem. If Serenity plans to sell this on his own website for profit... big problem.
He doesnt do any of the things in that paragraph. He doesnt sell any content, he is selling a collection of selfmade maps in bookform. These maps are his own, he made them. To sell them requires the consent of CCP because because the maps are based on their IP.
It helps reading the stuff at the beginning of the eula: Second paragraph states
"This End User License Agreement ("EULA") describes the terms and conditions under which you may (i) install and use the Software; and (ii) subscribe to, access and use EVEÖ online. CCP may amend this EULA from time to time by posting an amended version at http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp. If you accept this EULA, the then-current version of this EULA shall apply each time you access the System or play EVEÖ. "
Thus it has nothing to do with releasing any IP related 3rd party stuff since it only applies to installing and playing the game, yes its really that simple.
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