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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Buxaroo
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:01:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Buxaroo on 05/06/2007 15:03:33
Originally by: Elissen Just for the record, the dedicated server needed to run the Jumpplanner is not exactly free. My provider is getting a nice big chunk from my credit card every month.
I can understand your point of view on this matter. And for the record, if any particular service warrants some kind of payment, yours is definetly at the top of the list.
And I can also understand the debate on wether one thing you can charge money for as opposed to something that you cannot. It does open up the doors on whats legal etc. But lets be a little real here in concerning whats acceptable to to make money from as opposed to whats not. From my POV, someone creating and maintaining a site like yours is not trivial, but I wouldn't think it would be as expensive as making a hard copy book.
As far as paying for work rendered, I love the ways that you can pay for OOG (out of game) items or services with in game isk. For instance the numerous ways for people to create unique forum signatures for isk. It's the great capitalistic way of this game and the game designers encourage it which I think is fantastic and shows how much they are intune with the players.
Or take for instance your Jump Planner site (which btw now that I have made some isk selling some items I can now send your way via a donation for services rendered and please don't consider this as a bribe of any kind to get you to agree with me :-) ) which you pay for out of your own pocket via the hosting for the site and the time you took to create that service. But you have to look at the cost of your service ( I am not sure how much per month you pay for your service, but I used to run my old CS clans website and it usualy ran about $15 a month) and compare it to something like creating a hard copy book which I am assuming cost a lot to produce. This is not in any way to say his idea or service is better than yours understand, but the process I think is a lot more real life money involved.
You may think CCP is playing favorites with this but I don't think so. I am sure CCP will be making profit from this no doubt, but they can't very well just take the guys hard work that he has done in collecting all that valuable information and presenting it in the manner that he has and not re-imburse him for his troubles.
Remember back when Counter Strike was a mod only? I played CS beta 4 long before it was a Valve-owned game. You have to remember how many mods there are for Half Life and Half Life Source. But from my knowledge, CS was the only mod they bought to distribute as their own. I am sure Valve got to thinking "Hey, this mod has really taken off and people are playing it more than anything else out there but these guys did it for free and with their own time. I think we should give them an offer for their mod, even though the software and game engine is ours, and make some profit off of it and develope future versions ourselves."
To me it's just good business sense and there are no loosers in this. I don't think CCP would do something like take the guys book and then distribute it as their own, even though it's their game and their information, without due compensation. That only seems fair.
Of course, I have not read the particular information about the book deal but either way this seems to be the general arrangement I am thinking they have. Correct me if I am wrong on this matter.
"No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:01:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Bistot Kid
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for.
What exclusive game content is he providing that you can't access through other means, ie the ingame map?
Does his book include secret jump gates to avoid gate camps that you can only activate by using an "in book" code?
It includes concords shield frequencies and the backdoor gate from 0.0 to Jita so you can jump in and kill everyone in a titan
Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
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Elissen
Amarr The Arrow Project
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:01:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Elissen But this is about EVE Maps and charging for physical items, which is perfectly fine IMHO.
Ok... to make a point. I have NO problem for the base cost of the printing to be recovered. That's fair.
Well this would make supplying a free version to those who only wish to print part of the guide themselves also fair right?
WRONG.
Serenity has NO plans to provide a free version of this guide to anyone. Pay access only.
This is clearly against the EULA as there is no free element to this book. It is entirely pay for access. Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for.
If you quote me, quote me completely.
Also, again:
Quote: The data is provided as-is. You can use this for creating maps on fansites, calculating routes, etc.
You can not sell this data or use it in any form of a commercial product. If you want to use it in a commercial product, contact [email protected] for licensing
The data is copyright CCP 2005 and owned by CCP Games, Iceland.
Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license. ---- ICSC Jumpplanner tool - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships! |
DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:07:00 -
[214]
Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 05/06/2007 15:10:33 Can a mod lock this thread please... this guy doesn't even understand what is an EULA and the open doors that it can give both the author and 3rd party creators.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If CCP wants to do a contract to allow Serenity to publish a book there is NOTHING in the EULA that prevents that.
Originally by: Elissen
Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license.
Made it bold for ya Wiggly as this is the only thing you need to really get a grasp of.
Next thing we'll see, is that he'll pretend that because something is GPL, he must have it automatically for free. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink |
Threv Echandari
Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:11:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Threv Echandari on 05/06/2007 15:11:45 1. Serenity has already negotiated with CCP to use the IP (it shoud be end of story) 2. 3rd party apps can still be made for free (GNU and all that) if EveMon worked out a deal with CCP to sell Evemon (and publishing a diffrent version with diffrent code under a diffrent licensing scheme) then more power to them! Coding is hard work and people should be able to charge for their work
Your Whining about "Hows it traditionally done" and what-ever. Boo Freeking Hoo. Its CCP's game and if they want to licence their IP more power to them. More revenue for CCP means stable subscription prices for us. Of course all these arguments will flow over your head like air. All you want is free stuff and can't stand the fact that someone with Time, skills and talent has come up with something that he can sell (Its no different than PRIMA Strategy guides)and CCP said its OK.
If you want free DL Ombey's Maps, I for one will be happy to Pay Serenity for a Nice Double sided Spiral bound map. I can't make that my self and it provides value --to me--
No one is forcing you to use ANY 3rd party tool and you can play eve just fine without them. If you don't like it don't buy it. Thats capitalism (Which is really waht you seem to have a problem with it seems)
Threv
Caldari Prime > Luminaire
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Odinegras
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:11:00 -
[216]
Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Can a mod lock this thread please... this guy doesn't even understand what is an EULA and the open doors that it can give both the author and 3rd party creators.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If CCP wants to do a contract to allow Serenity to publish a book there is NOTHING in the EULA that prevents that.
Made it bold for ya Wiggly as this is the only thing you need to really get a grasp of.
Next thing we'll see, is that he'll pretend that because something is GPL, he must have it automatically for free.
/signed
TBH i dont think wiggly understands real world corporations CCP will have a mission statement (which they aint gonna change) and im sure (Im Assuming) in there it states something about providing free additional content to its End Users
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Odinegras
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:13:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Odinegras on 05/06/2007 15:12:32
Oops double post
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:14:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Elissen Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license.
Correct. And if CCP wishes to go down that path by all means they are welcome to.
I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content.
Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong.
Unless CCP takes ownership and sells this guide and supports it via this website, Serenitys 'customers' are open for the potential of exploitation and abuse.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:17:00 -
[219]
Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Can a mod lock this thread please...
Don't like my opinion or points of view so you decide to whine for a thread lock? Move on if you disagree with the substance of the discussion. Nobody is forcing you to buy it.
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sesanti
Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:17:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Elissen But this is about EVE Maps and charging for physical items, which is perfectly fine IMHO.
Ok... to make a point. I have NO problem for the base cost of the printing to be recovered. That's fair.
Well this would make supplying a free version to those who only wish to print part of the guide themselves also fair right?
WRONG.
Serenity has NO plans to provide a free version of this guide to anyone. Pay access only.
This is clearly against the EULA as there is no free element to this book. It is entirely pay for access. Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for.
CCP is free to establish an business relation with anyone, including those that play the game. Sadly in a capitalistic society nothing is for free, people die because they cannot pay for food while others pay millions to go to outer space. So yes, like you say, if he wants to charge for his service and not offer it for free for anyone else, then it is in his right. Those that won't pay will not have it, while those who get their credit cards out of their wallets will. And if CCP allows it thru a business contract, they are on their right too. That is life, mate. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster -
<I am a guy... don't mind the portrait> |
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Nestor II
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:21:00 -
[221]
I for one will be buying this book when it comes out, for the most part it will be a valuable tool for mining ops and related stuff.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:22:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Elissen Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license.
Correct. And if CCP wishes to go down that path by all means they are welcome to.
I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content.
Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong.
Unless CCP takes ownership and sells this guide and supports it via this website, Serenitys 'customers' are open for the potential of exploitation and abuse.
I'm interested (answer honestly here): would you be just as upset if CCP commissioned Prima (part of the Random House publishing empire, I believe) to release a strategy guide for the game? --------
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Jason Marshall
Hammer Of Light
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:23:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Buxaroo To the op. You are missing the whole point about this. EVEMon, Jumpplanner et al is a dynamic software that only costs time from the programmers POV. The books on the other hand are HARDWARE that needs to be built. That my friend costs money. I don't see a problem with this at all.
Why is it that when someone uses their brains and thinks in capitalistic terms, they are automatically going to ruin everything?
Quite the contrary. CCP thought that way which is why the EULA states what it states. namely, you can not sell in game content. All I expect is that CCP sticks by it's commitment to that and prevents individuals (Serenity in this case) from independently selling CCP intellectual property.
CCP is more than welcome to purchse his book off him and flog it to us. I couldn't care less about that. But the EULA should be fair and equitable in fairness to all thoe other developers out there who have made free tools for the EvE community.
Why should Serenity get to make $$$ off EvE when hard working other developers respected the EULA and did not. Why should Serenity exploit his relationships with CCP and get kickbacks and wavers on what clauses he can ignore of the EULA while others can not?
Alot of people have spent a lot of money, time, energy, and effort to provide this community with a lot of free goodies.
Only Serenity is looking for a payday out of it. I it laughable that many of you make me out to be the bad guy.
IIRC he isnt using a direct screenshot of the universe map, he remade the map in an easier ot view format. The only thing comming otu the game are the system names.
Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
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DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:23:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content.
So I guess that you'll have to sue me because I'm partly living on many GPL stuff that I reuse, sell, etc. You're welcome to try. In no way I made any harm to the products I am using, to the contrary. While Eve is not GPL, the example stands against your misunderstanding of the current subject.
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong.
ORLY? Based on all your arguments... I don't think you really know who's right or wrong.
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Unless CCP takes ownership and sells this guide and supports it via this website, Serenitys 'customers' are open for the potential of exploitation and abuse.
You still haven't shown in all these pages a single valid argument about a potential of exploitation and abuse possibility except for the fact that you don't like that someone publishes a book and ask some money for doing so and under the grace of CCP.
Just... don't buy anything made by external parties if you don't like it. Leave the others to their own choice. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink |
Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:24:00 -
[225]
Originally by: sesanti So yes, like you say, if he wants to charge for his service and not offer it for free for anyone else, then it is in his right. Those that won't pay will not have it, while those who get their credit cards out of their wallets will. And if CCP allows it thru a business contract, they are on their right too. That is life, mate.
Sure it is. And those that sit back and let it happen of course it will. However those precious few who point out that for 10 years this sort of activity has been frowned upon. Players have been BANNED for similer activities in the past.
Selling in game content for cash has always resulted in plauyers being banned. Selling ISK, charactors, ships, stations, alliances... you name it... CCP has kicked people for much less.
Whats different now?
Whats so special about Serenity book of maps that warrents Sertenity to benefit financially while others are told it is against the EULA or simply banned?
Ebaying ISK. Ebaying Map Books. Ebaying Charactors.
It's all the same unless you are Serenity it seem. Don't you find that very interesting?
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Vantoth
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:28:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
So if I took these forums, distilled them down and presented them in a book format, slapped "The Unofficial Guide to EvE" and sold it on Amazon you would be ok with that?
Intelectual property belongs to CCP. They have the right to say what gets to be used and what does not. Serenity Steele plans to make this an exclusive profit making adventure for himself while using these forums and resources to do so.
Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Why should Serenity Steele get away with it especially when his product is nothing more than a 'cut and paste' of in game information?
Business initative sure, I'll give him that. Good for the EvE community? You bet your boots it is not! It sets a VERY bad precedent about having to pay for third party tools.
Shame on CCP for allowing this to go ahead.
If they sign a License agreement with CCP then they can. That's just it, he is getting permission from CCP to do this, If he were to do it without licensed permission from CCP then he could get sued.
If I were to create a set of build it yourself line of ship models based on the ships in EVE, I could sell the heck out of them as long as I get Permission from CCP. Same thing goes if I wanted to create a paper back novel based on the world of EVE. As long as he gets the License agreement from CCP, that means they are ok with it and are most likely getting a slice of the money he is getting.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:30:00 -
[227]
Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found!
EVE Online: Official strategy guide.
Apparently, CCP set the precedent of licensing out publishers to write and sell (AT A PROFIT) in game guides back in 2003. This is not the first time they've let someone sell a book, OP! --------
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:33:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Nestor II I for one will be buying this book when it comes out, for the most part it will be a valuable tool for mining ops and related stuff.
So you are saying that for you, this map book would provide you a gaming advantage over and above that if you did not have access to it.
If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative.
Would this disparity be aleviated by CCP providing a online PDF download for you?
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BoBoZoBo
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:34:00 -
[229]
I have no problem with these guys charging for production costs if they want to make a nice printed piece available for the community. It is expensive and time consuming to produce a nice book.
HOWEVER, I agree that the information contained within the book should be made available to the entire community for free in a digital format.
If not then you just run the risk of the people who can afford to buy it have an advantage over those who cannot. Real life economics already create advantages for some.. we should try to mitigate that.
The cost should be limited to physical hard-material production that is beyond the capability of the content creator.
Charging for thier time to compile and design the book is something else,. Plenty of people here do that for free and CCP should not make a deal that messes with that community dynamic. =========================
Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9 |
Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:39:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found!
Congratulations. It adds nothing to this discussion.
There is nothing wrong with this. If CCP wants to sell map boks fine they are welcome to do so. I have a problem when individuals use in game content to make a profit.
I.e ISK sellers, Charators Sellers and nbow obviously Map Book creators.
If CCP want to sell ISK THEY should do it. If they want to have a book on the market THEY should sell it. Not some Yahoo from god knows where that provides ZERO consumer protections.
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Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:40:00 -
[231]
Originally by: BoBoZoBo Assuming they have CCPs permission... I have no problem with these guys charging for production costs if they want to make a nice printed piece available for the community. It is expensive and time consuming to produce a nice book.
HOWEVER, I agree that the information contained within the book should be made available to the entire community for free in a digital format.
If not then you just run the risk of the people who can afford to buy it have an advantage over those who cannot. Real life economics already create advantages for some.. we should try to mitigate that.
The cost should be limited to physical hard-material production that is beyond the capability of the content creator.
Charging for thier time to compile and design the book is something else,. Plenty of people here do that for free and CCP should not make a deal that messes with that community dynamic.
Watch out, I have made that observation about the free online copy many times. It made no dent in these fanbois point of view.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:41:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found!
Congratulations. It adds nothing to this discussion.
There is nothing wrong with this. If CCP wants to sell map boks fine they are welcome to do so. I have a problem when individuals use in game content to make a profit.
I.e ISK sellers, Charators Sellers and nbow obviously Map Book creators.
If CCP want to sell ISK THEY should do it. If they want to have a book on the market THEY should sell it. Not some Yahoo from god knows where that provides ZERO consumer protections.
Whats the difference between Random House Publishing and some guy with a printer? Neither of them are CCP. That book wasn't printed by CCP anymore than Serenity's maps.
It has everything to do with this discussion- either third party resources being sold for money are bad, or they're not. Does it matter if the third party is a massive corporation or not? --------
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Vala Draaken
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:41:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content.
Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong.
There is no right or wrong in this discussion.
You argue that it is a bad thing. That is your opinion.
Others argue that it's is a good move or that it doesn't matter. That is their opinion.
Even if everyone agreed with you, that still wouldn't make you right or them wrong. The only thing that would make you right, would be if what you say comes to pass. Apparently the majority of the posters in this thread don't believe that will happen.
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DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:42:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative.
Not really since alternatives are already available for free and others would come from it. It is still a book in the end and not everyone will keep it on their lap while playing. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink |
Bistot Kid
The First Thing You'll Ever See
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:44:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found!
EVE Online: Official strategy guide.
Apparently, CCP set the precedent of licensing out publishers to write and sell (AT A PROFIT) in game guides back in 2003. This is not the first time they've let someone sell a book, OP!
Did you see the 3 reviews of the book there? Ouch!
------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook ------------------------------------- |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:44:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Bistot Kid
Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found!
EVE Online: Official strategy guide.
Apparently, CCP set the precedent of licensing out publishers to write and sell (AT A PROFIT) in game guides back in 2003. This is not the first time they've let someone sell a book, OP!
Did you see the 3 reviews of the book there? Ouch!
Hehehe, yeah. Not exactly on my Xmas list... --------
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Threv Echandari
Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:45:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative. Would this disparity be aleviated by CCP providing a online PDF download for you?
No, I still want the Spiral Bound nicely printed book and am willing to pay for it. (Once again Ombey's Maps provide much of the same info but different format) it is a convenenience not a neccesity and I don't mind paying for convenience. Thats like saying that because I buy a car that has a single disk player and they dont offer a multi disk CD changer, Pioneer can't sell me one... because it would give me an "advantage" over other drivers who have to manually change disks while driving and therefore have increased risk of having an accident.
But I get you.. it would seem that your a Marxist/Socialist (and every body who doesn't have what everyone else has is a "victim" I guess) so any and all arguments to the contrary are anathema to you...
End of Story really. Threv
Caldari Prime > Luminaire
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DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:46:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Bistot Kid
Did you see the 3 reviews of the book there? Ouch!
And the only copies that are on sell are "used"... guess they all sent it back ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink |
Wiggly Jiggly
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:49:00 -
[239]
Originally by: DeTox MinRohim
Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly
If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative.
Not really since alternatives are already available for free and others would come from it. It is still a book in the end and not everyone will keep it on their lap while playing.
Many people have openly stated that Serenitys map book would help them mine, help them plan jumps, help them plan faster auto pilot routes, etc.
That sounds like an advantage to me.
I am sure many people would appreciate not being disadvantaged by having the opportunity to print of part of this book they desire. Serenitys book, with all the information it contains.
Since the content is 100% CCP property I think that would be more than fair to keep the balance of the community.
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Bistot Kid
The First Thing You'll Ever See
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:51:00 -
[240]
Originally by: BoBoZoBo If not then you just run the risk of the people who can afford to buy it have an advantage over those who cannot. Real life economics already create advantages for some.. we should try to mitigate that.
That's life. Some people run X accounts. With a better PC. And a faster GFX card. And on a faster network connection. While their wife brings them beer. From the fridge on their yacht.
Originally by: BoBoZoBo The cost should be limited to physical hard-material production that is beyond the capability of the content creator.
Why should it be limited to that? How much do you think it costs CCP/WW to make the Eve CCG game cards? If it's overpriced it won't sell and they'll be left trying to shift stock at a bargain basement price. CCP used to sell bottles of Quafe which was a brave marketing move but it didn't work. I assume low volume sales mixed with a "use by" date that food products have mean it didn't make commercial sense.
------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook ------------------------------------- |
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